On this episode of Newts World. Haiti began as a nation of liberation and resistance, but now finds itself on the brink of collapse. Under the weight of political chaos, economic devastation, and foreign intervention. Armed groups have overrun the nation. Government officials have fled following the assassination of President Moise in twenty twenty one, and refugees embark on journeys by boat in search of safety in the United States and Latin America. In the aftermath of both natural and man made disasters has left Haiti's infrastructure in ruins and its economy crippled. In his new book, Aid State, Elite, Panic, Disaster, Capitalism, and the Battle to Control Haiti, j Johnson delves into the heart of Haiti's tumultuous history and its current state of crisis. I'm really pleased to welcome my guests. Jake Johnson is a senior research associate at the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington, d C. And has been the leading writer for the Center's Haiti Relief and Reconstruction Watch website since February twenty ten, just weeks after a seven point zero earthquake devastated Haiti. Jake, Welcome and thank you for joining me on newts World.

On this episode of Newts World. Haiti began as a nation of liberation and resistance, but now finds itself on the brink of collapse. Under the weight of political chaos, economic devastation, and foreign intervention. Armed groups have overrun the nation. Government officials have fled following the assassination of President Moise in twenty twenty one, and refugees embark on journeys by boat in search of safety in the United States and Latin America. In the aftermath of both natural and man made disasters has left Haiti's infrastructure in ruins and its economy crippled. In his new book, Aid State, Elite, Panic, Disaster, Capitalism, and the Battle to Control Haiti, j Johnson delves into the heart of Haiti's tumultuous history and its current state of crisis. I'm really pleased to welcome my guests. Jake Johnson is a senior research associate at the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington, d C. And has been the leading writer for the Center's Haiti Relief and Reconstruction Watch website since February twenty ten, just weeks after a seven point zero earthquake devastated Haiti. Jake, Welcome and thank you for joining me on newts World.

Appreciate you having me.

Appreciate you having me.

Before we get into the current situation. I'm really curious why did you become attracted to studying Haiti.

Before we get into the current situation. I'm really curious why did you become attracted to studying Haiti.

Thanks.

Thanks.

I think the important part is how we get involved, but also I think very relevant to everything that's going on now fifteen years later. And so you know, I was working in DC at the time of the earthquake in twenty ten, and I think, like so many was with a lot of my colleagues, motivated to try and do something, to try and help in some way. And I think we realized pretty early on that a lot of the decisions about how money was going to get spent, who was going to get it, and what was going to happen in Haiti was going to have to do with decisions that were being made in Washington as much as decisions that were being made in import of prints and so being in Washington, we had a unique role to play in that regard. And so for me, it was really starting to answer this question that everyone was asking after the earthquake, which is ten billion dollars pledged from countries all around the world. Where was the money going and that was really my entrance into this topic and what has opened my eyes to a whole lot of things over the last fifteen years.

I think the important part is how we get involved, but also I think very relevant to everything that's going on now fifteen years later. And so you know, I was working in DC at the time of the earthquake in twenty ten, and I think, like so many was with a lot of my colleagues, motivated to try and do something, to try and help in some way. And I think we realized pretty early on that a lot of the decisions about how money was going to get spent, who was going to get it, and what was going to happen in Haiti was going to have to do with decisions that were being made in Washington as much as decisions that were being made in import of prints and so being in Washington, we had a unique role to play in that regard. And so for me, it was really starting to answer this question that everyone was asking after the earthquake, which is ten billion dollars pledged from countries all around the world. Where was the money going and that was really my entrance into this topic and what has opened my eyes to a whole lot of things over the last fifteen years.

Well, the earthquake in twenty ten killed about two hundred and twenty thousand Haitians and displaced another million and a half and the eight billion dollars in agrants the basic reconstruction costs were larger than the country's annual gross domestic product. Then you get drought in twenty fifteen to twenty seventeen, leading to crop losses of seventy percent. In twenty sixteen, Hurricane Matthew decimated the country's housing, livestock, and infrastructure. Then there were back to back disasters. In August twenty twenty one, a magnitude seven point two earthquake rocked the southern Peninsula, destroying thirty percent of local homes, killing over two thousand people and displacing tens of thousands more. It's almost like Haiti has a target on its back and something happens negative on a regular basis.

Well, the earthquake in twenty ten killed about two hundred and twenty thousand Haitians and displaced another million and a half and the eight billion dollars in agrants the basic reconstruction costs were larger than the country's annual gross domestic product. Then you get drought in twenty fifteen to twenty seventeen, leading to crop losses of seventy percent. In twenty sixteen, Hurricane Matthew decimated the country's housing, livestock, and infrastructure. Then there were back to back disasters. In August twenty twenty one, a magnitude seven point two earthquake rocked the southern Peninsula, destroying thirty percent of local homes, killing over two thousand people and displacing tens of thousands more. It's almost like Haiti has a target on its back and something happens negative on a regular basis.

Yeah, I totally understand that. I think it's easy to say sort of, you know, Haiti can't catch a break, right, and these natural disasters are part of it. But you know, natural disasters are also often accompanied by man made disasters. The event itself, right, an earthquake, a hurricane, you can't stop that, but you can do something to limit its effect, to prevent it from having the damage and the deadly impact that it can have, and to recover from it and respond to it in more productive ways. And so, you know, I think that is true that Haiti is had a target at its back, but it's not just from nature. I think it's been from many very powerful countries across the world that in a lot of ways have had a target on Haiti's back for a long long time.

Yeah, I totally understand that. I think it's easy to say sort of, you know, Haiti can't catch a break, right, and these natural disasters are part of it. But you know, natural disasters are also often accompanied by man made disasters. The event itself, right, an earthquake, a hurricane, you can't stop that, but you can do something to limit its effect, to prevent it from having the damage and the deadly impact that it can have, and to recover from it and respond to it in more productive ways. And so, you know, I think that is true that Haiti is had a target at its back, but it's not just from nature. I think it's been from many very powerful countries across the world that in a lot of ways have had a target on Haiti's back for a long long time.

Well, talk about that for a second, because you have, I think a sort of romanticized vision of how the original Haitian rebellion occurred. It was extraordinarily brutal. The French were defeated and driven from the country, and at one point the winning side had an explicit anti white policy of just killing the colonists. So the country sort of started much more estranged from Europe and much more isolated in many ways than most of the other countries that were during that period also in rebellion. The long history of Haiti and the history of corruption and Haitian government up through Papa Doc for example, in Baby Doc. It seems to me there's a tragedy to the country that's very deep and very real and unbelievably painful for the people of Haiti.

Well, talk about that for a second, because you have, I think a sort of romanticized vision of how the original Haitian rebellion occurred. It was extraordinarily brutal. The French were defeated and driven from the country, and at one point the winning side had an explicit anti white policy of just killing the colonists. So the country sort of started much more estranged from Europe and much more isolated in many ways than most of the other countries that were during that period also in rebellion. The long history of Haiti and the history of corruption and Haitian government up through Papa Doc for example, in Baby Doc. It seems to me there's a tragedy to the country that's very deep and very real and unbelievably painful for the people of Haiti.

There is a history of corruption. I don't think that is necessarily unique to Haiti. I think it's also important to talk about who has held political power in Haiti and if they're truly representative of the Haitian majority.

There is a history of corruption. I don't think that is necessarily unique to Haiti. I think it's also important to talk about who has held political power in Haiti and if they're truly representative of the Haitian majority.

Right.

Right.

But going back to its origin story, I mean, of course the revolution was violent. I mean, the enslavement of the population for decades.

But going back to its origin story, I mean, of course the revolution was violent. I mean, the enslavement of the population for decades.

And centuries before was violent.

And centuries before was violent.

But what I mean by the target on the back is that Haiti's independence was not met with open arms regardless. I mean it took the United States sixty plus years to recognize Haiti's independence, to open up actual trade relations with the new Haitian state with an independent Haiti. France did recognize Haiti in eighteen twenty five, but only on a condition that Haiti pay an absurdly high loan or debt payment to France for its freedom, for the property that French merchants and landholders lost in Haiti.

But what I mean by the target on the back is that Haiti's independence was not met with open arms regardless. I mean it took the United States sixty plus years to recognize Haiti's independence, to open up actual trade relations with the new Haitian state with an independent Haiti. France did recognize Haiti in eighteen twenty five, but only on a condition that Haiti pay an absurdly high loan or debt payment to France for its freedom, for the property that French merchants and landholders lost in Haiti.

And so these things were important.

And so these things were important.

You know, Haiti was seen as a threat to the dominant economic system of the time, and certainly it was forced to pay for that. And of course today's situation is not solely about things that happened two hundred years ago, right, I mean, we can talk a lot about more recent history and further actions from international actors. But I think you know, one of the dynamics that's really consistent throughout Haites's history is this nexus of a local political and economic elite and their relationship with external powers, and how that nexus of power and influence has really held sway over the Haitian state for two hundred years, more than two hundred years, and that it has never fully embraced the actual population itself or been a state that is representative of the full spectrum of the Haitian population.

You know, Haiti was seen as a threat to the dominant economic system of the time, and certainly it was forced to pay for that. And of course today's situation is not solely about things that happened two hundred years ago, right, I mean, we can talk a lot about more recent history and further actions from international actors. But I think you know, one of the dynamics that's really consistent throughout Haites's history is this nexus of a local political and economic elite and their relationship with external powers, and how that nexus of power and influence has really held sway over the Haitian state for two hundred years, more than two hundred years, and that it has never fully embraced the actual population itself or been a state that is representative of the full spectrum of the Haitian population.

From your perspective, you talk a lot about the very way in which we went about helping them in some ways hurt them.

From your perspective, you talk a lot about the very way in which we went about helping them in some ways hurt them.

That's right, And I think again this gets into more of some of the recent history. I think there's deep historical roots to all of this. But my engagement really started after the twenty ten earthquake, and you know, the mantra at the time was build back better, right, learn from our mistakes of the past and do things differently this time. And that's not what we saw, right, And so I was tracking the money flows, where was the money going? And you know, the reality was a lot of the money was going to companies that were much closer to my office.

That's right, And I think again this gets into more of some of the recent history. I think there's deep historical roots to all of this. But my engagement really started after the twenty ten earthquake, and you know, the mantra at the time was build back better, right, learn from our mistakes of the past and do things differently this time. And that's not what we saw, right, And so I was tracking the money flows, where was the money going? And you know, the reality was a lot of the money was going to companies that were much closer to my office.

Here in DC than they weren't anybody in Haiti.

Here in DC than they weren't anybody in Haiti.

And Okay, I understand some of the motivations behind that, but the result of that was weakening local capacity, undermining local governments and local institutions. And if we really want to help build long term sustainability, we want to make sure that we're not being asked to contribute more aid in the future or spending more money. We need to make sure the money we do spend is actually building local capacity in a sustainable way.

And Okay, I understand some of the motivations behind that, but the result of that was weakening local capacity, undermining local governments and local institutions. And if we really want to help build long term sustainability, we want to make sure that we're not being asked to contribute more aid in the future or spending more money. We need to make sure the money we do spend is actually building local capacity in a sustainable way.

Walk me through that a little bit. I mean, my sense is, you know, I think we first really intervene about nineteen twenty two or nineteen twenty three, the Marines go into Haiti for a while, and then we've off and on had relationships where we've either tried to ignore Haiti or we've tried to help pay. We've certainly played a role in terms of who's president and how that has worked. I remember Jimmy Carter and Sam Nunn and Colin Power sent down by President Clinton to meet with the Haitian president and try to sort things out. And I once set a chance to talk at length with Pale about it, and it was all surreal.

Walk me through that a little bit. I mean, my sense is, you know, I think we first really intervene about nineteen twenty two or nineteen twenty three, the Marines go into Haiti for a while, and then we've off and on had relationships where we've either tried to ignore Haiti or we've tried to help pay. We've certainly played a role in terms of who's president and how that has worked. I remember Jimmy Carter and Sam Nunn and Colin Power sent down by President Clinton to meet with the Haitian president and try to sort things out. And I once set a chance to talk at length with Pale about it, and it was all surreal.

Yeah, you were speaking of the House of the time.

Yeah, you were speaking of the House of the time.

Right, Yeah, So I have a very real interest in this and I'm totally puzzled by it. Then, of course, you have the recent assassination of the president noise, do you have apparently a very dramatic increase in the size and power and sophistication of the gangs which will apparently occupy a very substantial part dominate now a substantial part of the country. What fuels that as a drug fueled or what is it about the gangs and enable them to become so strong?

Right, Yeah, So I have a very real interest in this and I'm totally puzzled by it. Then, of course, you have the recent assassination of the president noise, do you have apparently a very dramatic increase in the size and power and sophistication of the gangs which will apparently occupy a very substantial part dominate now a substantial part of the country. What fuels that as a drug fueled or what is it about the gangs and enable them to become so strong?

Yeah, And I think this is an important question, an important dynamic, and I think to begin they control a large part of the capitol, right. I think it is important to note that Haiti is much more than just port of Prints. It's a country of twelve million. The majority of the population is outside of Porter Prince, and the majority of the country, while obviously affected by things happening in the capitol, it remains largely peaceful. And so you know, Haiti is not just violence, violence and chaos right now, and we need to keep that in mind. But in terms of these armed groups, there's a long history of this sort of paramilitary action non state armed forces in Haiti, going back to du Vallie and even before. But I would trace the sort of recent phenomenon to a few things and a few different factors. One is, there have always been a deep connection between these arm groups and the political and economical lead in the country. And that's because these groups are largely operating in communities, very densely populated communities that make up the majority of the population of porter prints. And those are also communities that surround the major ports and other businesses right that are of key importance to certain actors, and also are key electoral factors because this is where the majority of pipe art. And beyond that, whenever there are street protests or any demonstrations of that nature, they are often starting in these communities. And so control over these communities is extraordinarily important for the political and economically. And so while this has been a phenomenon that has deep roots, and some of these groups do have legitimate ties to their communities. They're not entirely divorced from that. But when we saw this big influx of money and new weapons coming into these groups really began in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen especially, and what was happening at that time were nationwide anti corruption protests targeting the government and calling for accountability and end to state impunity and for real changes to the system of governance that was in place. And the traditional folks in Haiti who've held power and influence for a long time, many of them responded by directly working with arming, funding and organizing these arm groups in order to basically break that mobilization that was calling for chain and so we can see their rise I think directly linked to these political interests, and it's not to say that they are today entirely controlled by those same political or economic actors. I think there's a number of issues. Some of them certainly are involved in transnational criminal networks that involve drug trafficking. Arms trafficking has also exploded, so there are bigger factors and external factors. But also I think we can't divorce what's happened with Zombie. From the political reality.

Yeah, And I think this is an important question, an important dynamic, and I think to begin they control a large part of the capitol, right. I think it is important to note that Haiti is much more than just port of Prints. It's a country of twelve million. The majority of the population is outside of Porter Prince, and the majority of the country, while obviously affected by things happening in the capitol, it remains largely peaceful. And so you know, Haiti is not just violence, violence and chaos right now, and we need to keep that in mind. But in terms of these armed groups, there's a long history of this sort of paramilitary action non state armed forces in Haiti, going back to du Vallie and even before. But I would trace the sort of recent phenomenon to a few things and a few different factors. One is, there have always been a deep connection between these arm groups and the political and economical lead in the country. And that's because these groups are largely operating in communities, very densely populated communities that make up the majority of the population of porter prints. And those are also communities that surround the major ports and other businesses right that are of key importance to certain actors, and also are key electoral factors because this is where the majority of pipe art. And beyond that, whenever there are street protests or any demonstrations of that nature, they are often starting in these communities. And so control over these communities is extraordinarily important for the political and economically. And so while this has been a phenomenon that has deep roots, and some of these groups do have legitimate ties to their communities. They're not entirely divorced from that. But when we saw this big influx of money and new weapons coming into these groups really began in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen especially, and what was happening at that time were nationwide anti corruption protests targeting the government and calling for accountability and end to state impunity and for real changes to the system of governance that was in place. And the traditional folks in Haiti who've held power and influence for a long time, many of them responded by directly working with arming, funding and organizing these arm groups in order to basically break that mobilization that was calling for chain and so we can see their rise I think directly linked to these political interests, and it's not to say that they are today entirely controlled by those same political or economic actors. I think there's a number of issues. Some of them certainly are involved in transnational criminal networks that involve drug trafficking. Arms trafficking has also exploded, so there are bigger factors and external factors. But also I think we can't divorce what's happened with Zombie. From the political reality.

Are there an identifiable number of discrete gangs that are coherent and organized.

Are there an identifiable number of discrete gangs that are coherent and organized.

The estimates say there's somewhere around two hundred different arm groups in the capitol and surrounding area, and traditionally, over the last number of years, they've largely been consolidated with some disparate actors under two broad coalitions that have largely been fighting one another over the last couple of years. And the big change that we've seen in the last few weeks is that they have all now apparently begun coordinating together and are working together instead of fighting one another, and have turned their guns.

The estimates say there's somewhere around two hundred different arm groups in the capitol and surrounding area, and traditionally, over the last number of years, they've largely been consolidated with some disparate actors under two broad coalitions that have largely been fighting one another over the last couple of years. And the big change that we've seen in the last few weeks is that they have all now apparently begun coordinating together and are working together instead of fighting one another, and have turned their guns.

On the state itself.

On the state itself.

And so that is obviously a significant change from what had happened before and has led to what we've seen in terms of attacks on police stations, the National Penitentiary, the prison and state institutions themselves.

And so that is obviously a significant change from what had happened before and has led to what we've seen in terms of attacks on police stations, the National Penitentiary, the prison and state institutions themselves.

As I understand it, this sort of began to coalesce in October of twenty one with a coalition of nine prominent gangs that became known as the g Nine and it's leaders a former police officer Jimmy Cherizier, who's known as Barbecue. I mean, if this is almost like a movie. To what degree are the gangs beginning to create a coherence structure that could in fact directly compete with the state for control of the country.

As I understand it, this sort of began to coalesce in October of twenty one with a coalition of nine prominent gangs that became known as the g Nine and it's leaders a former police officer Jimmy Cherizier, who's known as Barbecue. I mean, if this is almost like a movie. To what degree are the gangs beginning to create a coherence structure that could in fact directly compete with the state for control of the country.

It's a good question, an important one.

It's a good question, an important one.

I think there's a lot of things we don't know here, and the situation remains incredibly influx and so I'm going to be careful not to give too many predictions about the future because things are changing hour to hour on the ground and putting together arm groups that two weeks ago we're fighting each other and now are ostensibly fighting to overthrow the system and change the state. That is obviously a very fraught thing with internal difficulties, in competition for power, and different interests behind each actor, and so what their ultimate end goal is I think remains very unclear. And mentioned the political connections, and I think this is the reality that's even happening right now, and it's very clear to see there's a sort of perception that these arm groups are seeking to take over the state themselves right now or exercising state control. Neither of those seems to be true as far as I can tell. Their political support seems to be for this individual Gi Philippe, who has been sort of putting forth his own government to take power in the midst of this transition process that is slowly forming taking shape over the last couple of weeks. And so there seems to be a direct at least coordination, if not outright direct organizational relationship between the arm groups and these political actors such as g Philip who were seeking to take power for themselves.

I think there's a lot of things we don't know here, and the situation remains incredibly influx and so I'm going to be careful not to give too many predictions about the future because things are changing hour to hour on the ground and putting together arm groups that two weeks ago we're fighting each other and now are ostensibly fighting to overthrow the system and change the state. That is obviously a very fraught thing with internal difficulties, in competition for power, and different interests behind each actor, and so what their ultimate end goal is I think remains very unclear. And mentioned the political connections, and I think this is the reality that's even happening right now, and it's very clear to see there's a sort of perception that these arm groups are seeking to take over the state themselves right now or exercising state control. Neither of those seems to be true as far as I can tell. Their political support seems to be for this individual Gi Philippe, who has been sort of putting forth his own government to take power in the midst of this transition process that is slowly forming taking shape over the last couple of weeks. And so there seems to be a direct at least coordination, if not outright direct organizational relationship between the arm groups and these political actors such as g Philip who were seeking to take power for themselves.

There's a countervailing group known as Ja Caley, which is a vigilanti group that's out killing gang members, the.

There's a countervailing group known as Ja Caley, which is a vigilanti group that's out killing gang members, the.

Boisc Alai movement, a citizen justice movement. Look, this is a state that has failed the population for a long long time. I was talking about that dynamic earlier. And when the state is not able to step in and protect a population and people are forced to choose between sitting back and being terrorized and facing debt themselves or fighting back, I think we can understand that response. Whether you think it is right or just, or legal or moral or anything. I think we do have to understand the desperation that causes this and the underlying context that leads to these sorts of outcomes. And look, we've seen it in recent days. I mean, the police force in Haiti has been politicized, decimated, and it should be noted has received the majority of its funding from international actors for decades, but they have done nothing to actually strengthen the institution and have watched it be politicized by leaders in Haiti who are backed by the United States and are directly undermining these police forces. And so this creates a very challenging dynamic. And where we've seen success on the security front, it has largely been with police working directly with communities, because the only way a police force is going to be able to bring some order situation is if they have the trust of the population, and so when you see that coordination happening, that is what has actually been effective on the ground, certainly in the last couple of weeks and really for the last many years.

Boisc Alai movement, a citizen justice movement. Look, this is a state that has failed the population for a long long time. I was talking about that dynamic earlier. And when the state is not able to step in and protect a population and people are forced to choose between sitting back and being terrorized and facing debt themselves or fighting back, I think we can understand that response. Whether you think it is right or just, or legal or moral or anything. I think we do have to understand the desperation that causes this and the underlying context that leads to these sorts of outcomes. And look, we've seen it in recent days. I mean, the police force in Haiti has been politicized, decimated, and it should be noted has received the majority of its funding from international actors for decades, but they have done nothing to actually strengthen the institution and have watched it be politicized by leaders in Haiti who are backed by the United States and are directly undermining these police forces. And so this creates a very challenging dynamic. And where we've seen success on the security front, it has largely been with police working directly with communities, because the only way a police force is going to be able to bring some order situation is if they have the trust of the population, and so when you see that coordination happening, that is what has actually been effective on the ground, certainly in the last couple of weeks and really for the last many years.

Do we, in our paid program help the police or do we in fact undermine them with policies that don't work.

Do we, in our paid program help the police or do we in fact undermine them with policies that don't work.

The great contradiction in US AID policies more generally, right, I mean, often the aid itself is not what's causing the problem, but we try and silo everything out, so we think we can do these different things, whether it be health or education or security, but we don't understand or appreciate the longer effects and the way that our foreign policy and our political intervention directly undermines any effort we have, even if it could work, it's going to be undermined by a political situation that again the United States and other countries have a significant role in shaping. And so yes, the US and other donors have provided tens hundreds of millions of dollars, probably billions of dollars to the panage to the National Police as an institution over the last twenty thirty years.

The great contradiction in US AID policies more generally, right, I mean, often the aid itself is not what's causing the problem, but we try and silo everything out, so we think we can do these different things, whether it be health or education or security, but we don't understand or appreciate the longer effects and the way that our foreign policy and our political intervention directly undermines any effort we have, even if it could work, it's going to be undermined by a political situation that again the United States and other countries have a significant role in shaping. And so yes, the US and other donors have provided tens hundreds of millions of dollars, probably billions of dollars to the panage to the National Police as an institution over the last twenty thirty years.

Is that been good or bad?

Is that been good or bad?

Well, we can look at the police today and look at their capacity and say it's bad. But it's not just bad because of the nature of the aid. It's bad because all the rest of the policies and the political choices that we're making at the leadership also impact all of these other things.

Well, we can look at the police today and look at their capacity and say it's bad. But it's not just bad because of the nature of the aid. It's bad because all the rest of the policies and the political choices that we're making at the leadership also impact all of these other things.

Are we trapped into the leadership we back because it is in fact the structure of Haiti? I mean it would be impossible for us to step in and try to create a healthy, reform leadership with sort of coherent policies that tried to move the country to a better future.

Are we trapped into the leadership we back because it is in fact the structure of Haiti? I mean it would be impossible for us to step in and try to create a healthy, reform leadership with sort of coherent policies that tried to move the country to a better future.

I don't think the US needs to be trapped. I think they're acting like they have and I think we see this right now. The State Department backed de facto prime minister who was deeply unpopular for the last thirty months following the assassination of Release, and that was in the face of amazing organizing that was happening in Haiti trying to put forth governance structures and roadmaps to restore democracy in the country, and those efforts were continually rejected and undermined. And we stayed with this guy, Henri because he was there, because he was easy. Because changing horses are going to some process that you don't know or don't control, is an unknown, and for us policymakers, I think the fear of the unknown is a real thing. You'll stick with the horse you got because you know them and you know that they're going to play with the game, and so that unknown is scary. But you know, the reality is sticking with the known has not produced any results, and in fact, i'd argue is basically blowing up in our face right now. And so look, it's going to take trying something different. It's going to take choosing a different path, and that means not setting the agenda not choosing what comes next, but providing space for Haitians to actually take the lead and to support what they come up with, rather than controlling the process that comes up with what's next.

I don't think the US needs to be trapped. I think they're acting like they have and I think we see this right now. The State Department backed de facto prime minister who was deeply unpopular for the last thirty months following the assassination of Release, and that was in the face of amazing organizing that was happening in Haiti trying to put forth governance structures and roadmaps to restore democracy in the country, and those efforts were continually rejected and undermined. And we stayed with this guy, Henri because he was there, because he was easy. Because changing horses are going to some process that you don't know or don't control, is an unknown, and for us policymakers, I think the fear of the unknown is a real thing. You'll stick with the horse you got because you know them and you know that they're going to play with the game, and so that unknown is scary. But you know, the reality is sticking with the known has not produced any results, and in fact, i'd argue is basically blowing up in our face right now. And so look, it's going to take trying something different. It's going to take choosing a different path, and that means not setting the agenda not choosing what comes next, but providing space for Haitians to actually take the lead and to support what they come up with, rather than controlling the process that comes up with what's next.

I mean, doesn't it sort of call for the Congress and the American people to sort of ask for a totally new approach. I was noting that one of the points you make that the whole process of the United Nations between twenty ten and twenty twenty allocating over thirteen billion dollars. I mean, this is not a very big country, and you'd think at some point the thirteen billion dollars would have a positive impact. They may have had a miliative interact and at least they minimized starvation, but it doesn't seem to me that they moved us towards a coherent, safe, and prosperous Haiti.

I mean, doesn't it sort of call for the Congress and the American people to sort of ask for a totally new approach. I was noting that one of the points you make that the whole process of the United Nations between twenty ten and twenty twenty allocating over thirteen billion dollars. I mean, this is not a very big country, and you'd think at some point the thirteen billion dollars would have a positive impact. They may have had a miliative interact and at least they minimized starvation, but it doesn't seem to me that they moved us towards a coherent, safe, and prosperous Haiti.

No.

No.

I think that's right.

I think that's right.

This goes to why it does take everythink it does take changing policies, because the reason why these things aren't long term effective is certainly not only because of Haiti or Haitians. It's because of how we actually provide this support. Yes, the Unit Nations spent billions of dollars, but not all of that money was spent in Haiti by any stretch of the imagination. Same thing with the post earthquake aid. You know, we hear these top line numbers ten billion dollars, eight billion dollars, whatever it is, but that is not what actually makes it onto the ground, and it is very much not what actually makes it into the hands of any patians in Haiti. Right, and so yeah, of course it's not having the intended effect. If we want to do better, if we want to do something different, if we want to actually support a stable Haiti over the long term, it's going to take the US, the US Congress, the US Administration, and the US people sort of demanding those changes and changing their policies so that we're not just repeating these mistakes over and over and over again.

This goes to why it does take everythink it does take changing policies, because the reason why these things aren't long term effective is certainly not only because of Haiti or Haitians. It's because of how we actually provide this support. Yes, the Unit Nations spent billions of dollars, but not all of that money was spent in Haiti by any stretch of the imagination. Same thing with the post earthquake aid. You know, we hear these top line numbers ten billion dollars, eight billion dollars, whatever it is, but that is not what actually makes it onto the ground, and it is very much not what actually makes it into the hands of any patians in Haiti. Right, and so yeah, of course it's not having the intended effect. If we want to do better, if we want to do something different, if we want to actually support a stable Haiti over the long term, it's going to take the US, the US Congress, the US Administration, and the US people sort of demanding those changes and changing their policies so that we're not just repeating these mistakes over and over and over again.

It's almost like there's a foreign aid industry.

It's almost like there's a foreign aid industry.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

I say, the aid industrial complex is what I refer to it in the book, and I think this is right. I mean, we look at Haiti and we say, oh, Haiti is corrupt, so we can't give money to the Haitian government or Haitian institutions. But the justification is often, well, we can hold us companies accountable for what they do in other countries.

I say, the aid industrial complex is what I refer to it in the book, and I think this is right. I mean, we look at Haiti and we say, oh, Haiti is corrupt, so we can't give money to the Haitian government or Haitian institutions. But the justification is often, well, we can hold us companies accountable for what they do in other countries.

The reality is we don't. We just don't.

The reality is we don't. We just don't.

We gave hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to just a handful of contractors involved in the aid and development space in Iraq and Afghanistan and then in Haiti, and audit after audit shows poor results, lacks financial management, and all of these things, tons of problems, and yet we just keep doing it. We just keep doing it again and again and again. And it leads you to believe that for us in the United States, the goal of this is not actually the development we say it is, but something else, because why else would you keep doing the same flawed thing over and over and over again.

We gave hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to just a handful of contractors involved in the aid and development space in Iraq and Afghanistan and then in Haiti, and audit after audit shows poor results, lacks financial management, and all of these things, tons of problems, and yet we just keep doing it. We just keep doing it again and again and again. And it leads you to believe that for us in the United States, the goal of this is not actually the development we say it is, but something else, because why else would you keep doing the same flawed thing over and over and over again.

So it's actually profitable for the foreign aid industry, even if it's not profitable for the people that supposedly we're doing it for.

So it's actually profitable for the foreign aid industry, even if it's not profitable for the people that supposedly we're doing it for.

I often say this. You know, in many ways, US foreign assistance has become as much a jobs program here as it has in any place else, or certainly in Haiti. Look, you know how it is in Congress. It's hard to convince Congress to pass a foreign aid bill unless there's something for individual constituents and for the US. We ship food aid on US ships and it goes from excess crops from US farmers, but that has a big impact on the ground in Haiti. We make it harder for Haiti to feed itself, and then we're act surprised when Haitians are looking to come to the US. But we have to look at some of these root causes that are causing this and really simple changes that we could make that could go a long way towards reversing that dynamic.

I often say this. You know, in many ways, US foreign assistance has become as much a jobs program here as it has in any place else, or certainly in Haiti. Look, you know how it is in Congress. It's hard to convince Congress to pass a foreign aid bill unless there's something for individual constituents and for the US. We ship food aid on US ships and it goes from excess crops from US farmers, but that has a big impact on the ground in Haiti. We make it harder for Haiti to feed itself, and then we're act surprised when Haitians are looking to come to the US. But we have to look at some of these root causes that are causing this and really simple changes that we could make that could go a long way towards reversing that dynamic.

One of your points, this is a problem of as you put in silos, but as we provided food aid, we actually undermined local farmers.

One of your points, this is a problem of as you put in silos, but as we provided food aid, we actually undermined local farmers.

Right exactly, We're taking away their market.

Right exactly, We're taking away their market.

Free food aid in the aftermath of the earthquake. Like, yes, I mean people do need food. I mean that's important, but local farmers can't compete with free And in the end, it's important that Haiti be able to feed itself and not just be relying on aid continually. And that's important for all sorts of reasons. It's important for Haiti's sovereignty, it's important for the United States. This is in everyone's interest to see that outcome. And yet these policies are doing the exact opposite. Right now, there's a tremendous humanitarian crisis in Haiti, more than a million right on the edge of famine levels of hunger, and everyone wants to act again. Everyone wants to do something, and I applaud them for wanting to do something. It's good that we want to do something, but we have to make sure that something isn't going to repeat this cycle that we've seen played out so many times in Haiti history and in our history of involvement with Haiti.

Free food aid in the aftermath of the earthquake. Like, yes, I mean people do need food. I mean that's important, but local farmers can't compete with free And in the end, it's important that Haiti be able to feed itself and not just be relying on aid continually. And that's important for all sorts of reasons. It's important for Haiti's sovereignty, it's important for the United States. This is in everyone's interest to see that outcome. And yet these policies are doing the exact opposite. Right now, there's a tremendous humanitarian crisis in Haiti, more than a million right on the edge of famine levels of hunger, and everyone wants to act again. Everyone wants to do something, and I applaud them for wanting to do something. It's good that we want to do something, but we have to make sure that something isn't going to repeat this cycle that we've seen played out so many times in Haiti history and in our history of involvement with Haiti.

As you point out in your books, you have such depths of corruption in the Haitian system that, it seems to me makes it almost impossible to really have an honest aid program inside the country. So the aid program, since they has to adapt to the realities of how things work well, I.

As you point out in your books, you have such depths of corruption in the Haitian system that, it seems to me makes it almost impossible to really have an honest aid program inside the country. So the aid program, since they has to adapt to the realities of how things work well, I.

Think to an extent, yes, from a very just realist perspective. Right you put money into Haiti, and a Haitian takes money off the top in corruption.

Think to an extent, yes, from a very just realist perspective. Right you put money into Haiti, and a Haitian takes money off the top in corruption.

It's only eighty percent that makes it to the ground.

It's only eighty percent that makes it to the ground.

You give money to a foreign contractor, they take twenty percent off the top and pay salaries in Washington, and only eighty percent makes it to the ground. The actual impact is not what we're talking about here. And look, I think there are ways to hold actors accountable. I mean, so for the US, Okay, it's corruption an issue. You have oversight of the money, you demand transparency, and if there are instances of corruption, you would alert the appropriate authorities in Haiti, the justice system, the anti corruption units, and urge them to instigate and bring a case. But instead, what we've done traditionally is give money, know exactly who's stealing it and who's being corrupt, and then we don't say anything because we're backing those people politically and we don't want to do anything to undermind their governance in Haiti, and so we're reinforcing this corruption throughout each of these interventions. And this was the dynamic certainly in Haiti after the earthquake, where it was a real political liability. You had Hillary Clinton, you had Bill Clinton taking outsize roles in the reconstruction effort, and so it was no secret that there was corruption in the Haitian government, but a scandal like that would have had domestic political implications here. And so there are reasons well beyond Haiti that we don't push for further accountability and end to impunity in Haiti, and the sad reality is it's often domestic political considerations that end up having a big role in shaping foreign policy decisions.

You give money to a foreign contractor, they take twenty percent off the top and pay salaries in Washington, and only eighty percent makes it to the ground. The actual impact is not what we're talking about here. And look, I think there are ways to hold actors accountable. I mean, so for the US, Okay, it's corruption an issue. You have oversight of the money, you demand transparency, and if there are instances of corruption, you would alert the appropriate authorities in Haiti, the justice system, the anti corruption units, and urge them to instigate and bring a case. But instead, what we've done traditionally is give money, know exactly who's stealing it and who's being corrupt, and then we don't say anything because we're backing those people politically and we don't want to do anything to undermind their governance in Haiti, and so we're reinforcing this corruption throughout each of these interventions. And this was the dynamic certainly in Haiti after the earthquake, where it was a real political liability. You had Hillary Clinton, you had Bill Clinton taking outsize roles in the reconstruction effort, and so it was no secret that there was corruption in the Haitian government, but a scandal like that would have had domestic political implications here. And so there are reasons well beyond Haiti that we don't push for further accountability and end to impunity in Haiti, and the sad reality is it's often domestic political considerations that end up having a big role in shaping foreign policy decisions.

It struck me years ago that if you look at a map of that island, you can tell from overhead satellite pictures where the Dominican Republic is and where Haiti is, and it is so stark and so immediate that it's almost a stunning case study in the cultural impact of two different systems on the same island. In your judgment, is it possible to help migrate Haiti to a sustainable, long term pattern towards freedom and the rule of law and prosperity, or is that such a big jump that Haiti thirty years from now will probably still be a basket case hoping people send money first.

It struck me years ago that if you look at a map of that island, you can tell from overhead satellite pictures where the Dominican Republic is and where Haiti is, and it is so stark and so immediate that it's almost a stunning case study in the cultural impact of two different systems on the same island. In your judgment, is it possible to help migrate Haiti to a sustainable, long term pattern towards freedom and the rule of law and prosperity, or is that such a big jump that Haiti thirty years from now will probably still be a basket case hoping people send money first.

I think it's going to take a change in policy from countries like the United States, from the United Nations, from France, from Canada. We got to change ourselves, given the role that we continue to play in Haiti, and we're going to have to take a step back and let you do it. I have supreme faith in Haiti's ability to do that. If given the opportunity. I want to go back to this dynamic. Michelle rolf Trio is a famous Haitian historian, and he has this concept of state first nation that you have the Haitian state, and it has always been in opposition to the nation the actual people of Haiti. And I think the sad reality is that foreign interventions and foreign policies, including our aid and trade policies, have really served to only reinforce that dynamic of a weak state that represents very narrow interests and not the interests of the majority of the population. And so long as that dynamic continues, the instability in Haiti will continue. Quite frankly, it's an unsustainable status quo, and I think for the role of international actors is what role or what changes can we make to stop perpetuating that, to try and stop propping.

I think it's going to take a change in policy from countries like the United States, from the United Nations, from France, from Canada. We got to change ourselves, given the role that we continue to play in Haiti, and we're going to have to take a step back and let you do it. I have supreme faith in Haiti's ability to do that. If given the opportunity. I want to go back to this dynamic. Michelle rolf Trio is a famous Haitian historian, and he has this concept of state first nation that you have the Haitian state, and it has always been in opposition to the nation the actual people of Haiti. And I think the sad reality is that foreign interventions and foreign policies, including our aid and trade policies, have really served to only reinforce that dynamic of a weak state that represents very narrow interests and not the interests of the majority of the population. And so long as that dynamic continues, the instability in Haiti will continue. Quite frankly, it's an unsustainable status quo, and I think for the role of international actors is what role or what changes can we make to stop perpetuating that, to try and stop propping.

Up that unsustainable status quo, but.

Up that unsustainable status quo, but.

Allow Haitians to change their system of governance and their relationship between state and nation.

Allow Haitians to change their system of governance and their relationship between state and nation.

So if the next administration came to you and said give us a roadmap, you could come in and say this is the new model, and we're doing this new model, and the rest of you have to figure out how you're going to adapt to this new model. Because we're not going to try to figure out how to change you. So, if somebody came to you and said, Okay, we would like to have a program to enable the people of Haiti to have a dramatically better future, could you create a roadmap?

So if the next administration came to you and said give us a roadmap, you could come in and say this is the new model, and we're doing this new model, and the rest of you have to figure out how you're going to adapt to this new model. Because we're not going to try to figure out how to change you. So, if somebody came to you and said, Okay, we would like to have a program to enable the people of Haiti to have a dramatically better future, could you create a roadmap?

Well, I'll tell you who can create a roadmap. People in Haiti. They're doing it.

Well, I'll tell you who can create a roadmap. People in Haiti. They're doing it.

They're putting that together, they're coming up with roadmaps, they're organizing around what they want to see happen in the future. And I think that's an important dynamic. There is tremendous capacity in Haiti. Asian people are more than capable of doing this, but they're trapped. They're trapped by a political and economic class that has not had their interest at heart and continues to be empowered by the actions of the national community. And so the simple thing to tell any administration is stop working the people you've been working with, stop listening to the people you've been listening to, and open your ears and open your eyes to what's actually happening in Haiti. And so you know, there are plenty of people who are coming up with these plans, who are working hard to try and implement them, but there are barriers, and I think we can also view.

They're putting that together, they're coming up with roadmaps, they're organizing around what they want to see happen in the future. And I think that's an important dynamic. There is tremendous capacity in Haiti. Asian people are more than capable of doing this, but they're trapped. They're trapped by a political and economic class that has not had their interest at heart and continues to be empowered by the actions of the national community. And so the simple thing to tell any administration is stop working the people you've been working with, stop listening to the people you've been listening to, and open your ears and open your eyes to what's actually happening in Haiti. And so you know, there are plenty of people who are coming up with these plans, who are working hard to try and implement them, but there are barriers, and I think we can also view.

What's happening right now.

What's happening right now.

I mean, the title of the book is aid State, and it's a corrective to the notion of a failed state. It's a recognition that the state in Haiti is the product as much of external interference and external choices as the choice of the Haitian people. But it's collapse, which make no mistake. I don't like the term failed state, but the state is failing. The state has failed the population for a long long time. It is collapsing right now, and that's an opportunity. That's an opportunity to reset the relationship between state and nation. It's an opportunity to reset and refound the state based on real principles of freedom inequality in Haiti, and that can happen right I am optimistic about Haiti's future today, just despite the dire situation that's taking place right now today.

I mean, the title of the book is aid State, and it's a corrective to the notion of a failed state. It's a recognition that the state in Haiti is the product as much of external interference and external choices as the choice of the Haitian people. But it's collapse, which make no mistake. I don't like the term failed state, but the state is failing. The state has failed the population for a long long time. It is collapsing right now, and that's an opportunity. That's an opportunity to reset the relationship between state and nation. It's an opportunity to reset and refound the state based on real principles of freedom inequality in Haiti, and that can happen right I am optimistic about Haiti's future today, just despite the dire situation that's taking place right now today.

How do you reach beyond the state to find the people to listen to who are capable of organizing one knowing that the traditional lease in the state that they have sheltered in will oppose you, and two, how do you then legitimize getting the ideas and the information from the people who by your own definition, are outside the structure of power to begin with.

How do you reach beyond the state to find the people to listen to who are capable of organizing one knowing that the traditional lease in the state that they have sheltered in will oppose you, and two, how do you then legitimize getting the ideas and the information from the people who by your own definition, are outside the structure of power to begin with.

It doesn't happen overnight, right, This is not something that any country or any person can snap their fingers and all of a sudden there's a perfectly legitimate government in Haiti that everyone respects and is doing something new.

It doesn't happen overnight, right, This is not something that any country or any person can snap their fingers and all of a sudden there's a perfectly legitimate government in Haiti that everyone respects and is doing something new.

I mean, it's a process. I think that's the best I could say.

I mean, it's a process. I think that's the best I could say.

And the process starts with having conversations with folks in Haiti, with folks outside of the capital. Means reaching out and actually opening doors to these folks in Haiti who have been systematically excluded from these conversations. If the US wants to be playing a positive role, it can help open those doors. It can help provide that space. But it can't close the doors and determine who's in the room, right, So there's going to have to be a negotiation. There'll have to be a debate amongst Haitians, and it's going to have to involve people who are connected to the elite, people who are connected to the political world. But it's also going to have to include a lot of other people who haven't had that representation. And so again, can international actors play a facilitating role in that process.

And the process starts with having conversations with folks in Haiti, with folks outside of the capital. Means reaching out and actually opening doors to these folks in Haiti who have been systematically excluded from these conversations. If the US wants to be playing a positive role, it can help open those doors. It can help provide that space. But it can't close the doors and determine who's in the room, right, So there's going to have to be a negotiation. There'll have to be a debate amongst Haitians, and it's going to have to involve people who are connected to the elite, people who are connected to the political world. But it's also going to have to include a lot of other people who haven't had that representation. And so again, can international actors play a facilitating role in that process.

I'd like to think so, but I'd also ask.

I'd like to think so, but I'd also ask.

For a little proof before putting my total faith in it, because we've seen it go a very different direction in the past when international actors get involved, and so again, it's possible, but it's going to take change on all sides of the equation.

For a little proof before putting my total faith in it, because we've seen it go a very different direction in the past when international actors get involved, and so again, it's possible, but it's going to take change on all sides of the equation.

Is there much to be gained or is there much potential for encouraging and mobilizing the patient diaspora in the US to be helpful back in Haiti, Or is it difference in their two worlds so radical that is not really a practical thing.

Is there much to be gained or is there much potential for encouraging and mobilizing the patient diaspora in the US to be helpful back in Haiti, Or is it difference in their two worlds so radical that is not really a practical thing.

I think it's an important conversation, and I think to be with it, I mean, they're already playing an important role because Haiti is one of the most remittance dependent countries on the planet. The diaspora is sending twenty percent of GDP to Haiti every single year, so the only way a huge part of the population Haiti survives is through the support of the diaspora. But the diaspora is also not part of the political environment. They can't run for political things like this, and so there are ways to try and bridge these divides to try and get the diaspora more involved, more engaged with the realities on the ground and to build those connections. Then I think there's a lot of efforts that are taking place. I think the diaspora can play other important roles. We've seen this with many other countries. Is the role the diaspora can play in shifting US policy, in becoming a political force here to demand the kinds of changes that we've been having today, because it will take change, and it will take people pushing for that change, and so the diaspora can certainly play also a role here that will have a tremendous impact on the people of Haiti.

I think it's an important conversation, and I think to be with it, I mean, they're already playing an important role because Haiti is one of the most remittance dependent countries on the planet. The diaspora is sending twenty percent of GDP to Haiti every single year, so the only way a huge part of the population Haiti survives is through the support of the diaspora. But the diaspora is also not part of the political environment. They can't run for political things like this, and so there are ways to try and bridge these divides to try and get the diaspora more involved, more engaged with the realities on the ground and to build those connections. Then I think there's a lot of efforts that are taking place. I think the diaspora can play other important roles. We've seen this with many other countries. Is the role the diaspora can play in shifting US policy, in becoming a political force here to demand the kinds of changes that we've been having today, because it will take change, and it will take people pushing for that change, and so the diaspora can certainly play also a role here that will have a tremendous impact on the people of Haiti.

If they can.

If they can.

Organize and push for these kinds of changes, that would make a material difference in how the world and how the US interacts with Haiti.

Organize and push for these kinds of changes, that would make a material difference in how the world and how the US interacts with Haiti.

That's really helpful, Jake, want to thank you for joining me. Your new book, Aid State, Elite, Panic, Disaster, Capitalism, and the Battle to Control Haiti is available now on Amazon and bookstores everywhere. We'll have a link to it on our show page, and I really encourage everyone who's concerned about the crisis in Haiti to pick up a copy. I think you have very powerful and very important insights into the reality of what's going on there. I really appreciate you are taking the time to educate me and hopefully help educate all of our listeners.

That's really helpful, Jake, want to thank you for joining me. Your new book, Aid State, Elite, Panic, Disaster, Capitalism, and the Battle to Control Haiti is available now on Amazon and bookstores everywhere. We'll have a link to it on our show page, and I really encourage everyone who's concerned about the crisis in Haiti to pick up a copy. I think you have very powerful and very important insights into the reality of what's going on there. I really appreciate you are taking the time to educate me and hopefully help educate all of our listeners.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you to my guest Jake Johnston. You can get a link to buy his new book Aid State, Elite, Panic, Disaster, Capitalism, and the Battle to Control Haiti on our show page at newtsworld dot com. News World is produced by Game of three sixty and iHeart Media. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Gingrish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for my three free weekly columns at gingristre sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.

Thank you to my guest Jake Johnston. You can get a link to buy his new book Aid State, Elite, Panic, Disaster, Capitalism, and the Battle to Control Haiti on our show page at newtsworld dot com. News World is produced by Game of three sixty and iHeart Media. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Gingrish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for my three free weekly columns at gingristre sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.