On this episode of Newts World. My good friend, doctor Terry Maple, who was one of the great zoo directors of all time and a wonderful personal friend, passed away on December third, twenty twenty three. He was seventy seven. All the time I knew Terry, going back to the mid nineteen eighties, he was brilliant, enthusiastic, loved animals, loved people, had a remarkable career, wrote over a dozen scholarly books, and is somebody I truly felt was a friend. I miss him and I wanted to share with you the podcast to Terry, and I did, and you'll have a sense of what a wonderful person he was. I've been in love with animals all in my life, and I enjoyed going to zoos all over the world. In fact, one of my original childhood goals was to be a zoo director. I've been fortunate enough to visit some of the most incredible zoos, as well as go on safari in Africa. I confess that before I decided on a public service, I was going to be either a zoo director or a vertebrate paleontologist, but I ended up just trying to work on the country's problems. But my guest today considered a career in public service. We almost swapped, and then he became a zoo director. But he's much more than that. We were fortunate enough to meet years ago when doctor Terry Maple became president and CEO of Zoo Atlanta in nineteen eighty four under Mayor Andrew Young. He then went on to lead the Palm Beach Zoo. At the time doctor Maple took over Zoo Atlanta in nineteen eighty four, the zoo had become quote a national disgrace following this mysterious death of an elephant uncovered in a shallow grave in North Carolina. The elephant became the poster packet erm for zoom mismanagement, and it was then that Mary Young turned to doctor Maple. What doctor Maple was able to do with Zoo Atlanta was nothing short of remarkable. He's the author of fourteen books, including one I co authored with him, entitled A Contract with the Earth. He has a new book he's working on now, coming out this September, which describes the incredible story of Willie b It's entitled Atlanta's Iconic Ape The Life of Willy B. I'm pleased to welcome my guest, doctor Terry Maple. Terry, thank you for joining me. I wanted to do this episode because I want to emphasize how important I think zoos are for society and frankly make the case of why zoos matter. You have been one of the leading advocates of the importance of zoos, both as a place that families go to, as a place that practices conservation, and as a center of education. Could you talk to us for a minute or two about the degree to which zoos really really matter. Well.

On this episode of Newts World. My good friend, doctor Terry Maple, who was one of the great zoo directors of all time and a wonderful personal friend, passed away on December third, twenty twenty three. He was seventy seven. All the time I knew Terry, going back to the mid nineteen eighties, he was brilliant, enthusiastic, loved animals, loved people, had a remarkable career, wrote over a dozen scholarly books, and is somebody I truly felt was a friend. I miss him and I wanted to share with you the podcast to Terry, and I did, and you'll have a sense of what a wonderful person he was. I've been in love with animals all in my life, and I enjoyed going to zoos all over the world. In fact, one of my original childhood goals was to be a zoo director. I've been fortunate enough to visit some of the most incredible zoos, as well as go on safari in Africa. I confess that before I decided on a public service, I was going to be either a zoo director or a vertebrate paleontologist, but I ended up just trying to work on the country's problems. But my guest today considered a career in public service. We almost swapped, and then he became a zoo director. But he's much more than that. We were fortunate enough to meet years ago when doctor Terry Maple became president and CEO of Zoo Atlanta in nineteen eighty four under Mayor Andrew Young. He then went on to lead the Palm Beach Zoo. At the time doctor Maple took over Zoo Atlanta in nineteen eighty four, the zoo had become quote a national disgrace following this mysterious death of an elephant uncovered in a shallow grave in North Carolina. The elephant became the poster packet erm for zoom mismanagement, and it was then that Mary Young turned to doctor Maple. What doctor Maple was able to do with Zoo Atlanta was nothing short of remarkable. He's the author of fourteen books, including one I co authored with him, entitled A Contract with the Earth. He has a new book he's working on now, coming out this September, which describes the incredible story of Willie b It's entitled Atlanta's Iconic Ape The Life of Willy B. I'm pleased to welcome my guest, doctor Terry Maple. Terry, thank you for joining me. I wanted to do this episode because I want to emphasize how important I think zoos are for society and frankly make the case of why zoos matter. You have been one of the leading advocates of the importance of zoos, both as a place that families go to, as a place that practices conservation, and as a center of education. Could you talk to us for a minute or two about the degree to which zoos really really matter. Well.

Their educational function is tremendous.

Their educational function is tremendous.

If the school systems take advantage of it, you have to work together with them to develop a curricula at work.

If the school systems take advantage of it, you have to work together with them to develop a curricula at work.

By the visit to the zoo, it's just full of learning ops.

By the visit to the zoo, it's just full of learning ops.

At the same time, it's a conservation organization now more than ever before. Zoos are not only breeding in dangerous species and growing their populations and no longer taking animals out of the wild, but they are trying to restore habitat, trying to protect populations in the wild, and they're becoming partners with conservation organizations, spending lots and lots of money to help, and they are also centers of science. We now have this thing called one medicine, and one medicine is the combination of animal and human medicine because, as we have learned sadly, these viruses don't stay on one host. They frequently jump, especially when you destroy the population that harbored the virus. It then looks for a place to jump, and that place is often humanity. This is how we believe COVID that where it is onto virus the same. There are many viruses that like ebola, which were in Africa for years and years attacking animals and now attacking people. So we're all connected and it's important that zoos and universities talk to each other and work together continue to discover what it is about the world we.

At the same time, it's a conservation organization now more than ever before. Zoos are not only breeding in dangerous species and growing their populations and no longer taking animals out of the wild, but they are trying to restore habitat, trying to protect populations in the wild, and they're becoming partners with conservation organizations, spending lots and lots of money to help, and they are also centers of science. We now have this thing called one medicine, and one medicine is the combination of animal and human medicine because, as we have learned sadly, these viruses don't stay on one host. They frequently jump, especially when you destroy the population that harbored the virus. It then looks for a place to jump, and that place is often humanity. This is how we believe COVID that where it is onto virus the same. There are many viruses that like ebola, which were in Africa for years and years attacking animals and now attacking people. So we're all connected and it's important that zoos and universities talk to each other and work together continue to discover what it is about the world we.

Need to know.

Need to know.

But there's one other use of zoos people don't really understand yet, and that is that the zoos are that naturalistic wildlife experience that we crave, particularly those of us who live in an urban environment.

But there's one other use of zoos people don't really understand yet, and that is that the zoos are that naturalistic wildlife experience that we crave, particularly those of us who live in an urban environment.

If you're an.

If you're an.

Urban kid, you long to get out into nature, and zoos are nature. We feel better when we can actually revitalize and restore our sense of well being when we go to a place like that. So zoos need de cay to this feeling, and that's how architects began to develop this so called soft architecture and landscape immersion building facilities. It made you feel more and more like you'vere in nature. You don't feel good when you go in and feel like you're in prison. That's what zoos used to be.

Urban kid, you long to get out into nature, and zoos are nature. We feel better when we can actually revitalize and restore our sense of well being when we go to a place like that. So zoos need de cay to this feeling, and that's how architects began to develop this so called soft architecture and landscape immersion building facilities. It made you feel more and more like you'vere in nature. You don't feel good when you go in and feel like you're in prison. That's what zoos used to be.

Like.

Like.

Today's zoos are inspiring places because they mimic nature.

Today's zoos are inspiring places because they mimic nature.

And they also attract a surprisingly large number of.

And they also attract a surprisingly large number of.

People they do.

People they do.

It's going to be interesting now that we've had this viral experience because zoos are having to reinvent themselves. Every public place is having to revent itself. But zoos have the unique advantage they are outdoor experiences, so they're safer just by that alone.

It's going to be interesting now that we've had this viral experience because zoos are having to reinvent themselves. Every public place is having to revent itself. But zoos have the unique advantage they are outdoor experiences, so they're safer just by that alone.

But we're going to have to make do with social distancing, and they're the standards we didn't have before. We may not be able to.

But we're going to have to make do with social distancing, and they're the standards we didn't have before. We may not be able to.

Put people in a giant auditorium shoulder to shoulder like we used to do. Disney's probably going to lead the way on this, but we'll work with all the zoos in the America and in the world to reinvent standards that will fit the problems of the day.

Put people in a giant auditorium shoulder to shoulder like we used to do. Disney's probably going to lead the way on this, but we'll work with all the zoos in the America and in the world to reinvent standards that will fit the problems of the day.

But the number one advantage we have is.

But the number one advantage we have is.

We are in natural outdoor experiences and people feel better just going to the zoo. And the more we understand how people behave and how they use these spaces, the better those spaces are going to be.

We are in natural outdoor experiences and people feel better just going to the zoo. And the more we understand how people behave and how they use these spaces, the better those spaces are going to be.

So if you don't mind, I would like to go back to your childhood growing up in southern California. Tell me what helped shape you back then.

So if you don't mind, I would like to go back to your childhood growing up in southern California. Tell me what helped shape you back then.

Well, I was born in the La East La, which is a very dangerous place. They didn't live there a long. My parents moved me to San Diego, which was wonderful. We were living on the outskirts of San Diego, a little town called Chila Vista, seven miles from the Mexican border by the way, and my mother is half Hispanic, so I feel like it's.

Well, I was born in the La East La, which is a very dangerous place. They didn't live there a long. My parents moved me to San Diego, which was wonderful. We were living on the outskirts of San Diego, a little town called Chila Vista, seven miles from the Mexican border by the way, and my mother is half Hispanic, so I feel like it's.

My territory down there. The problem is I never learned Spanish.

My territory down there. The problem is I never learned Spanish.

I just learned how to eat Mexican food that my mother was very good at. But it was a wonderful place to grow up, and it was kind of a wild place. There was hills and creatures, and it was a place up in the hills called Fossil Canyon, which all the little kids knew about, and we used to go up there all the time and dig fossils.

I just learned how to eat Mexican food that my mother was very good at. But it was a wonderful place to grow up, and it was kind of a wild place. There was hills and creatures, and it was a place up in the hills called Fossil Canyon, which all the little kids knew about, and we used to go up there all the time and dig fossils.

And what we didn't.

And what we didn't.

Know is that it turned out to be one of the biggest fossil mines in the history of southern California. And this happened years later. I sent me a clipping about Fossil Canyon. They were developing it from homes and when they found the fossils they had to go in there.

Know is that it turned out to be one of the biggest fossil mines in the history of southern California. And this happened years later. I sent me a clipping about Fossil Canyon. They were developing it from homes and when they found the fossils they had to go in there.

And protect them.

And protect them.

Well, I always thought the little kid should have gotten got to discovering that place, but didn't happen away. But we neverthe last We were quite proud to know it. So that was a big influence on my life because I felt like I was an explorer. I always wanted to be an explorer. So going to the zoo, which is our principal activity, is a family My father was not wealthy, so we couldn't travel. Going to La was about as far as we ever got. But I didn't like LA, but going to the zoo was a whole lot better. We went to the zoo all the time when he was a marvelous place, very inspirational for a little boy, a notable place to develop his own curiosity.

Well, I always thought the little kid should have gotten got to discovering that place, but didn't happen away. But we neverthe last We were quite proud to know it. So that was a big influence on my life because I felt like I was an explorer. I always wanted to be an explorer. So going to the zoo, which is our principal activity, is a family My father was not wealthy, so we couldn't travel. Going to La was about as far as we ever got. But I didn't like LA, but going to the zoo was a whole lot better. We went to the zoo all the time when he was a marvelous place, very inspirational for a little boy, a notable place to develop his own curiosity.

The zoo even today is just I think amazing. When you were there, it was still basically only the downtown zoo and they didn't the animal park until later on in your life.

The zoo even today is just I think amazing. When you were there, it was still basically only the downtown zoo and they didn't the animal park until later on in your life.

Is that right? That's right.

Is that right? That's right.

What happened is a place called Lion Country Safari arrived in Los Angeles and there were seven of these Safari parks built, one of them in Georgia in Atlanta, about the one in la was wildly popular, and it was based on the idea that you get in your car and you drive around and you see the animals as if he were on a real safari. And they had as many as a one hundred lions at that park example, which was quite remarkable. And when San Diego started losing attendance, they started thinking, maybe we need one of these things.

What happened is a place called Lion Country Safari arrived in Los Angeles and there were seven of these Safari parks built, one of them in Georgia in Atlanta, about the one in la was wildly popular, and it was based on the idea that you get in your car and you drive around and you see the animals as if he were on a real safari. And they had as many as a one hundred lions at that park example, which was quite remarkable. And when San Diego started losing attendance, they started thinking, maybe we need one of these things.

But they didn't want to do it the same way.

But they didn't want to do it the same way.

They built a Safari experience that was a walking experience. They did build a little train that went around the outside, but primarily it was walking around in a more naturalistic place. Nevertheless, that facility until lost money for ten years before it began to turn a profit. It was in the northernmost part of San Diego, as Candido long ways to get to, but As San Diego grew, and as the La grew south, more and more homes were being built, more and more people were moving there, and pretty soon as Candida wasn't as far Abua as it used to be, so the park began to succeed. But from the beginning it was an artistic success. It was an entertainment success. It was a wonderful experience, and a lot of zoos around the country began to try to emulate it. But I think the Wild Animal Park now called the Safari Park, is really one of the extraordinary zoo experiences you'll ever have.

They built a Safari experience that was a walking experience. They did build a little train that went around the outside, but primarily it was walking around in a more naturalistic place. Nevertheless, that facility until lost money for ten years before it began to turn a profit. It was in the northernmost part of San Diego, as Candido long ways to get to, but As San Diego grew, and as the La grew south, more and more homes were being built, more and more people were moving there, and pretty soon as Candida wasn't as far Abua as it used to be, so the park began to succeed. But from the beginning it was an artistic success. It was an entertainment success. It was a wonderful experience, and a lot of zoos around the country began to try to emulate it. But I think the Wild Animal Park now called the Safari Park, is really one of the extraordinary zoo experiences you'll ever have.

I had a program called Ror and Snore where you could go and stay out and sleep in a tent. I remember going years ago, and I thought it was such a perfectly California experience. You had white table claws, you had China, you had California wines. I mean, you had somebody from the zoo give you a chat in the evening, You went to bed early, and then you were awakened by the lions and other animals starting around three in the morning. And it was brilliant showmanship on the part of the San Diego Zoo and CLIs and I were very fortunate to have a twenty three day trip in Africa with the curator of birds who was extraordinarily knowledgeable, and it was great fun. You didn't stay at the zoo, you didn't become a zookeeper. You took that love of animals and you went off to college.

I had a program called Ror and Snore where you could go and stay out and sleep in a tent. I remember going years ago, and I thought it was such a perfectly California experience. You had white table claws, you had China, you had California wines. I mean, you had somebody from the zoo give you a chat in the evening, You went to bed early, and then you were awakened by the lions and other animals starting around three in the morning. And it was brilliant showmanship on the part of the San Diego Zoo and CLIs and I were very fortunate to have a twenty three day trip in Africa with the curator of birds who was extraordinarily knowledgeable, and it was great fun. You didn't stay at the zoo, you didn't become a zookeeper. You took that love of animals and you went off to college.

Well, it's a funny thing. I enjoyed the zoo. I enjoyed animals, but I never thought you could make a living doing that. And nobody ever told me you could actually get faith. So I was at that time becoming politically aware. San Diego is a conservative town. I wanted to be involved in some kind of public service, but I didn't want traditional politics.

Well, it's a funny thing. I enjoyed the zoo. I enjoyed animals, but I never thought you could make a living doing that. And nobody ever told me you could actually get faith. So I was at that time becoming politically aware. San Diego is a conservative town. I wanted to be involved in some kind of public service, but I didn't want traditional politics.

I was student by the president in high school, and.

I was student by the president in high school, and.

I already had enough misery from that to ever imagine running for office. But I thought, you know, I'd like to be a statesman. I'd like to be in the foreign service. I get to travel and be the explorer I wanted to be, and I get to serve my country, and this would be a good thing to do. So I went to college thinking that was going to be in my career. I wanted to be an ambassador, but along the way, the Vietnam War happened, and this shook me up. I just couldn't understand so many of my peers were dying, and almost for no very good reason. Certainly, we students questioned it. We had teachings, and we talked about it incessantly. I began to think, you know, there's got to be some answers somewhere in the psychademia that I'm living in right now. So I started looking at sociology and political science, and I finally discovered psychology. And then, having studied psychology, I discovered ethology, which is a sort of a sub branch of psychology and biology. And I read a book by Comrade Lorenz called on Aggression. That book turned me around. It made me believe that I could understand why men fight if I understood why animals fucked. And that took me down the road of beginning to see myself as an academic involved in trying to understand man's inhumanity to man. So you think I might have stopped there. I did my first book, which was a reader on human aggression, when I was still in graduate school. But I started getting so interested in the animals. I realized that they were getting in humane treatment too. And I began to get sidetracked more and more into the animals themselves, and ultimately I became an ambassador for wildlife. So it turned out you always ended up doing what you're supposed to do. I was supposed to represent somebody, you end.

I already had enough misery from that to ever imagine running for office. But I thought, you know, I'd like to be a statesman. I'd like to be in the foreign service. I get to travel and be the explorer I wanted to be, and I get to serve my country, and this would be a good thing to do. So I went to college thinking that was going to be in my career. I wanted to be an ambassador, but along the way, the Vietnam War happened, and this shook me up. I just couldn't understand so many of my peers were dying, and almost for no very good reason. Certainly, we students questioned it. We had teachings, and we talked about it incessantly. I began to think, you know, there's got to be some answers somewhere in the psychademia that I'm living in right now. So I started looking at sociology and political science, and I finally discovered psychology. And then, having studied psychology, I discovered ethology, which is a sort of a sub branch of psychology and biology. And I read a book by Comrade Lorenz called on Aggression. That book turned me around. It made me believe that I could understand why men fight if I understood why animals fucked. And that took me down the road of beginning to see myself as an academic involved in trying to understand man's inhumanity to man. So you think I might have stopped there. I did my first book, which was a reader on human aggression, when I was still in graduate school. But I started getting so interested in the animals. I realized that they were getting in humane treatment too. And I began to get sidetracked more and more into the animals themselves, and ultimately I became an ambassador for wildlife. So it turned out you always ended up doing what you're supposed to do. I was supposed to represent somebody, you end.

Up representing wildlife. But you got into that in part at the University of California, Davis, which is one of the great agricultural schools in the world, and at that point in your life, you're looking at primate behavior and lessons a week and learn as humans from watching how primates interact.

Up representing wildlife. But you got into that in part at the University of California, Davis, which is one of the great agricultural schools in the world, and at that point in your life, you're looking at primate behavior and lessons a week and learn as humans from watching how primates interact.

Lorenz did not study primates.

Lorenz did not study primates.

Once I got into the issue of studying animals, I just had to find the animals that would make sense for me. Started with monkeys, baboons. I visited Africa. I visited a former student, and that influenced me. Going to Africa really opened my eyes and I began to see that when I had the opportunity to work at Emory University, I would be able to study the largest collection of great apes in the world, yer Key's Primate Center. I had a guerrillas, orangs and chimps in great numbers, and they were respected well known for what they were doing. But when I got there and I saw the facilities, they were terrible. They were not enlightened facilities like we had the San Diego Zoo. They were very ugly cages, and I didn't think the animals could possibly be thriving under those conditions. So I almost immediately began to think my calling was probably going to be to improve, if not eliminate, these terrible examples of what my mentor, Robert Summer, and he was studying prisons, mental hospitals, and zoos, and he wrote a book called Tight Spaces that was very influential in my thinking when I realized that these things could change, But I also realized that it wasn't going to happen just because of an idea. That's when I began to draw upon my storehouse of people's skills, and I had that, probably more than any other skill, was my ability to work for people, to lead people, and to get along with people. It's interesting that that's what the great Bell, eventually, the first woman zoo director at San Diego, said about her role there. When she was made director, she had been executive sector there for many years, and the founder of the zoo said to her, well, Bell I'm retiring, it's time for you to take over. You might as well be the director. You're running everything anyway, And so she took over. But she later commented that she had no zoological skills, no special ability to run a zoo, but what she had was pep skills. Could get along people, to get people involved. They could move everybody in the right direction. And she built a powerhouse too, and deserves a lot of credit for it.

Once I got into the issue of studying animals, I just had to find the animals that would make sense for me. Started with monkeys, baboons. I visited Africa. I visited a former student, and that influenced me. Going to Africa really opened my eyes and I began to see that when I had the opportunity to work at Emory University, I would be able to study the largest collection of great apes in the world, yer Key's Primate Center. I had a guerrillas, orangs and chimps in great numbers, and they were respected well known for what they were doing. But when I got there and I saw the facilities, they were terrible. They were not enlightened facilities like we had the San Diego Zoo. They were very ugly cages, and I didn't think the animals could possibly be thriving under those conditions. So I almost immediately began to think my calling was probably going to be to improve, if not eliminate, these terrible examples of what my mentor, Robert Summer, and he was studying prisons, mental hospitals, and zoos, and he wrote a book called Tight Spaces that was very influential in my thinking when I realized that these things could change, But I also realized that it wasn't going to happen just because of an idea. That's when I began to draw upon my storehouse of people's skills, and I had that, probably more than any other skill, was my ability to work for people, to lead people, and to get along with people. It's interesting that that's what the great Bell, eventually, the first woman zoo director at San Diego, said about her role there. When she was made director, she had been executive sector there for many years, and the founder of the zoo said to her, well, Bell I'm retiring, it's time for you to take over. You might as well be the director. You're running everything anyway, And so she took over. But she later commented that she had no zoological skills, no special ability to run a zoo, but what she had was pep skills. Could get along people, to get people involved. They could move everybody in the right direction. And she built a powerhouse too, and deserves a lot of credit for it.

This ability to recruit good people, get them focused on a particular direction, and have them operate together. There's a really rare skill among humans.

This ability to recruit good people, get them focused on a particular direction, and have them operate together. There's a really rare skill among humans.

The funny thing I was always good at that. When I was in the sixth grade, my teacher took me aside at school camp and he said to me, this is a very humbling conversation. He said, Derek, you're not the biggest boy. You're not an athlete of any consequence. You're not mean or strong, you're not a warrior. You're a leader. He said, somehow you leave these kids follow you, and you've got a skill that you've got to take advantage of your life. And he wanted me to know that there was something special. And I thought about this over the years because he was just a natural thing. Also, when I began to play sports, I had an underdog personality. I just loved getting in there with a bunch of guys that were misfits. And I always picked teams because of cohesion and never picked them because of, you know, the skills of the guys. So I take my guys and we would beat good teams all the time. They were just a matter of working together and like you said, being a team, and also just being fearless, never believing that you can't do it.

The funny thing I was always good at that. When I was in the sixth grade, my teacher took me aside at school camp and he said to me, this is a very humbling conversation. He said, Derek, you're not the biggest boy. You're not an athlete of any consequence. You're not mean or strong, you're not a warrior. You're a leader. He said, somehow you leave these kids follow you, and you've got a skill that you've got to take advantage of your life. And he wanted me to know that there was something special. And I thought about this over the years because he was just a natural thing. Also, when I began to play sports, I had an underdog personality. I just loved getting in there with a bunch of guys that were misfits. And I always picked teams because of cohesion and never picked them because of, you know, the skills of the guys. So I take my guys and we would beat good teams all the time. They were just a matter of working together and like you said, being a team, and also just being fearless, never believing that you can't do it.

And my father, who was a laborer.

And my father, who was a laborer.

Always told my brother and I he did not have a high school education, but he said, you kids, you can be whatever you want to be, but you better be good at or I'm not going to be happy. My older brother spent fifty years at the University of California, San Diego in the Department of Physics. He's a member of the National Academy of Sciences. The most brilliant, wonderful role model a boy could ever have. And you know, it just happened that all this stuff came together. But I always remember that it started in kind of simple ways and evolved and morphed and became what it was, and It was the remarkable experience. I'm still writing and mentoring and working, but it was mighty fun when I was really in the actor.

Always told my brother and I he did not have a high school education, but he said, you kids, you can be whatever you want to be, but you better be good at or I'm not going to be happy. My older brother spent fifty years at the University of California, San Diego in the Department of Physics. He's a member of the National Academy of Sciences. The most brilliant, wonderful role model a boy could ever have. And you know, it just happened that all this stuff came together. But I always remember that it started in kind of simple ways and evolved and morphed and became what it was, and It was the remarkable experience. I'm still writing and mentoring and working, but it was mighty fun when I was really in the actor.

You go from UC Davis, you end up first at Emory and then at Georgia Tech. And my sense was that you were doing very well at Tech and had been recognized as an academic, and suddenly you get a call from the city of Atlanta to apply a totally different set of skills, and you do it as though you were born to it. You stepped in and from day one you began to turn the zoo around, turn it into a great research center, a terrific urban zoo, and totally reclaimed its legitimacy in terms of accreditation. I mean, were all those just latent skills that were waiting to be called upon?

You go from UC Davis, you end up first at Emory and then at Georgia Tech. And my sense was that you were doing very well at Tech and had been recognized as an academic, and suddenly you get a call from the city of Atlanta to apply a totally different set of skills, and you do it as though you were born to it. You stepped in and from day one you began to turn the zoo around, turn it into a great research center, a terrific urban zoo, and totally reclaimed its legitimacy in terms of accreditation. I mean, were all those just latent skills that were waiting to be called upon?

Well, they were, but also there was some planning involved. When I first got into academia, I wasn't sure whether this is the place I wanted to spend my career.

Well, they were, but also there was some planning involved. When I first got into academia, I wasn't sure whether this is the place I wanted to spend my career.

After three years.

After three years.

At Emory, I remember Dean Poems, You may remember him. He became president of Georgia State. He told us all when we came in our first year, we were all hand.

At Emory, I remember Dean Poems, You may remember him. He became president of Georgia State. He told us all when we came in our first year, we were all hand.

Picked top people in the country and he.

Picked top people in the country and he.

Said, ladies and gentlemen, I know you're glad to be here, but I want to tell you your chances of getting tenure here A stim and Nune. They adopted the Harvard model. It was bring in great people for three or four years, and then they get rid of them and bring in more great people. That way, they didn't have to pay him a lot of money. So getting tenure was indeed very difficult. So I started thinking, well, yeah, I better have something in my back pocket.

Said, ladies and gentlemen, I know you're glad to be here, but I want to tell you your chances of getting tenure here A stim and Nune. They adopted the Harvard model. It was bring in great people for three or four years, and then they get rid of them and bring in more great people. That way, they didn't have to pay him a lot of money. So getting tenure was indeed very difficult. So I started thinking, well, yeah, I better have something in my back pocket.

Now.

Now.

I had already discovered zeus and was beginning to become known as the guy who has answers about apes.

I had already discovered zeus and was beginning to become known as the guy who has answers about apes.

So I made a deal to.

So I made a deal to.

Go on a sabbatical leave.

Go on a sabbatical leave.

This is after I left amery with the Tech.

This is after I left amery with the Tech.

I was only at Tech two years and I was going on a sabbat because Ron Forman, the young director down there, wonderful guy, a really great mentor. He needed a primatologist and he wanted me to come down and said, look, you come back. Beat my deputy director Introm. You don't have to stay. You, I belave your academic career. Just come down and do this. I need your help. And he said you'll learn something too. So I thought, you know, I will learn a great deal of house he run if I go work with this, And indeed it was the smartest thing I ever did. I came back with knowledge about running a zoo that I didn't have before. So when Andrew Young asked me to come into the room with all the other experts, I knew more about it than anybody else, even though when I took the job, I was the least experienced to director in the entire world.

I was only at Tech two years and I was going on a sabbat because Ron Forman, the young director down there, wonderful guy, a really great mentor. He needed a primatologist and he wanted me to come down and said, look, you come back. Beat my deputy director Introm. You don't have to stay. You, I belave your academic career. Just come down and do this. I need your help. And he said you'll learn something too. So I thought, you know, I will learn a great deal of house he run if I go work with this, And indeed it was the smartest thing I ever did. I came back with knowledge about running a zoo that I didn't have before. So when Andrew Young asked me to come into the room with all the other experts, I knew more about it than anybody else, even though when I took the job, I was the least experienced to director in the entire world.

When we were Young talked to you, did you have a vision of what you wanted to care this decrepit almost unaccredited institution, where you wanted it to go, and what you dreamed it could become.

When we were Young talked to you, did you have a vision of what you wanted to care this decrepit almost unaccredited institution, where you wanted it to go, and what you dreamed it could become.

And the day I moved to Atlanta and nineteen seventy five and I went to see the zoo, I knew immediately that this who as advantages that just might make it great someday if they could get all of their ducks in a row.

And the day I moved to Atlanta and nineteen seventy five and I went to see the zoo, I knew immediately that this who as advantages that just might make it great someday if they could get all of their ducks in a row.

And that advantage was a very simple thing.

And that advantage was a very simple thing.

It was the major universities surrounding Atlanta, Georgia, Georgia State, Emory, and then three veterinary schools within an hour, Auburn, Tskeigee, and University of Georgia, And I didn't know too many city zoos that had that advantage.

It was the major universities surrounding Atlanta, Georgia, Georgia State, Emory, and then three veterinary schools within an hour, Auburn, Tskeigee, and University of Georgia, And I didn't know too many city zoos that had that advantage.

But you had to turn it from being a not very important.

But you had to turn it from being a not very important.

Attraction to being a fine zoological facility with science and conservation education that is routed.

Attraction to being a fine zoological facility with science and conservation education that is routed.

And it wasn't that.

And it wasn't that.

Then they had to figure out, this is where we wanted to go. But I knew if we could turn it, we were a San Diego zoo in the making, not as big, but in many ways as.

Then they had to figure out, this is where we wanted to go. But I knew if we could turn it, we were a San Diego zoo in the making, not as big, but in many ways as.

Good and lo and behold. I was given the opportunity to.

Good and lo and behold. I was given the opportunity to.

Take it in that direction because when they gave me the zoo to run, it was a tabular rasa and they would have done anything to support me if I just stopped the bleeding. That's what I was really hired to do. But I did a lot better than that. I surprised them all.

Take it in that direction because when they gave me the zoo to run, it was a tabular rasa and they would have done anything to support me if I just stopped the bleeding. That's what I was really hired to do. But I did a lot better than that. I surprised them all.

You look at a place like Memphis or Saint Louis, or lots of cities approximately in the Atlanta league, Why did you think Atlanta had some unique advantages?

You look at a place like Memphis or Saint Louis, or lots of cities approximately in the Atlanta league, Why did you think Atlanta had some unique advantages?

Well, several things.

Well, several things.

First of all, they were all the primates because it had the Primate Center and had all the institutions that had private just senate every university. I just mentioned imatologist that some note Duane Mumbau over at Georgia State, a great figure in the business, and by the way, a man who worked at the San Diego Zoo at one time. There were many others and they were all there the guide, this young primatologist, and that was a sense of inspiration. But it's also the fact that Atlanta was beginning to be the hot city in the South. It was entrepreneurial to a fault, and there were people like Ted Derner that thought they could do anything. So when you're surrounded by people like that, and of course, you know, I met this guy named Nuke Gingrich and first thing he told me is I'm going to be.

First of all, they were all the primates because it had the Primate Center and had all the institutions that had private just senate every university. I just mentioned imatologist that some note Duane Mumbau over at Georgia State, a great figure in the business, and by the way, a man who worked at the San Diego Zoo at one time. There were many others and they were all there the guide, this young primatologist, and that was a sense of inspiration. But it's also the fact that Atlanta was beginning to be the hot city in the South. It was entrepreneurial to a fault, and there were people like Ted Derner that thought they could do anything. So when you're surrounded by people like that, and of course, you know, I met this guy named Nuke Gingrich and first thing he told me is I'm going to be.

Speaking out someday. And I thought, you know, I didn't say it to you at the time, but I thought, it is that ever going to happen? Yeah?

Speaking out someday. And I thought, you know, I didn't say it to you at the time, but I thought, it is that ever going to happen? Yeah?

Yeah, Well it took me longer than it took you.

Yeah, Well it took me longer than it took you.

But you thought big, and people who think big.

But you thought big, and people who think big.

I knew that if I thought big enough and I was able to work for it and do the right things, we.

I knew that if I thought big enough and I was able to work for it and do the right things, we.

Get it, and that we did so in one of your first big breakthroughs was convincing the Ford Motor Company to provide a remarkable facility. How did you pull that off.

Get it, and that we did so in one of your first big breakthroughs was convincing the Ford Motor Company to provide a remarkable facility. How did you pull that off.

Well, that's interesting because Ford had had a plant in Atlanta for seventy five years, but their marketers told them nobody knew it. Nobody really knew that Ford had contributed anything in the city.

Well, that's interesting because Ford had had a plant in Atlanta for seventy five years, but their marketers told them nobody knew it. Nobody really knew that Ford had contributed anything in the city.

So their marketers were.

So their marketers were.

Trying to uplift the image of Ford Motor Company. So they were shopping their involvement to try to fix something or advance something.

Trying to uplift the image of Ford Motor Company. So they were shopping their involvement to try to fix something or advance something.

That would be noticed.

That would be noticed.

So they came around and they looked the zoo, asked me to tell them what I was doing there that might be remarkable.

So they came around and they looked the zoo, asked me to tell them what I was doing there that might be remarkable.

Now, I said to him, you know, I've got an idea for you. We're going to build the best guerrilla exhibit in the entire world, and we're starting with one gorilla.

Now, I said to him, you know, I've got an idea for you. We're going to build the best guerrilla exhibit in the entire world, and we're starting with one gorilla.

And I said, I know we can do this if we had the support for community, but we're going to need funding, and if we had a partner like Forward, he would make it so much easier. So having sketched out division to them, they went back to the drawing board, thought about it and designed, you know, let's take that zoo on, let's make that our project. They came back. But I always remember when Jim Donaldson K who was one of their marketing guys, gave me the first check for fifty thousand. He whispered in my ear as I was about to walk out and give a speech. He said, not Derry. He had a sort of a Scottish brogue. Now Darry better not be number two. And they always told me this is another thing I learned forward. They weren't the biggest automaker in the world, but they thought they were the best. So from the very beginning I used to preach to my staff, you don't have to be.

And I said, I know we can do this if we had the support for community, but we're going to need funding, and if we had a partner like Forward, he would make it so much easier. So having sketched out division to them, they went back to the drawing board, thought about it and designed, you know, let's take that zoo on, let's make that our project. They came back. But I always remember when Jim Donaldson K who was one of their marketing guys, gave me the first check for fifty thousand. He whispered in my ear as I was about to walk out and give a speech. He said, not Derry. He had a sort of a Scottish brogue. Now Darry better not be number two. And they always told me this is another thing I learned forward. They weren't the biggest automaker in the world, but they thought they were the best. So from the very beginning I used to preach to my staff, you don't have to be.

Big to be great. You only have to be great.

Big to be great. You only have to be great.

And to me, being great is being smart, having smart people, solving problems, doing things the right way, and doing things far beyond the norm. And we learned that from organizations like work.

And to me, being great is being smart, having smart people, solving problems, doing things the right way, and doing things far beyond the norm. And we learned that from organizations like work.

Well, you had a remarkable access to gorillas that nobody else could really compete with. At his peak. How many total gorillas were in the.

Well, you had a remarkable access to gorillas that nobody else could really compete with. At his peak. How many total gorillas were in the.

Exhibit, Well, at the time we were trying to give guerrillas, we just had WILLI b But we were going to try to get three breeding groups, and we ended up getting, as I recall, ten or eleven guerrillas, about a half dozen of rangutans.

Exhibit, Well, at the time we were trying to give guerrillas, we just had WILLI b But we were going to try to get three breeding groups, and we ended up getting, as I recall, ten or eleven guerrillas, about a half dozen of rangutans.

And from the very day we.

And from the very day we.

Put them outside in the facility they began to breed, so it was very quickly becoming what I had envisioned as a population of groups. Those who had ever exhibited a population before, they'd exhibit at most a group, maybe two groups, but never a population many groups. We built five habitats and one of them was a single small habitat right in the middle.

Put them outside in the facility they began to breed, so it was very quickly becoming what I had envisioned as a population of groups. Those who had ever exhibited a population before, they'd exhibit at most a group, maybe two groups, but never a population many groups. We built five habitats and one of them was a single small habitat right in the middle.

For Willy B.

For Willy B.

Because we had no idea whether B was going to ever be anything but a solitary grill, but.

Because we had no idea whether B was going to ever be anything but a solitary grill, but.

We had a thought that would give.

We had a thought that would give.

Him a chance. By the way, I just wrote a book about Willy B. That book is going to be published probably in August, and it's the whole story of Willy B. Became the great social guerrilla, the great parent five offspring, and everybody thought he was a dead but it turned out to be most wonderful social grilla.

Him a chance. By the way, I just wrote a book about Willy B. That book is going to be published probably in August, and it's the whole story of Willy B. Became the great social guerrilla, the great parent five offspring, and everybody thought he was a dead but it turned out to be most wonderful social grilla.

How many years had he been in isolation?

How many years had he been in isolation?

He was born in Africa, captured there.

He was born in Africa, captured there.

He had been at the zoo since nineteen fifty nine, and then it took another ten eleven twelve years to build the exhibit, so he was a singleton grilla all that time, about twenty seven years. And later on when he became a social grilla, you would have never imagined that animal could have ever been normal, because the theoreticians, people like Harlow, had discovered that when you were socially deprived or isolated long enough, he developed behaviors that made it impossible for you to be normal. But he had skills. Whether his mother and the group with his mother at somehow inoculated him with enough awareness, or whether it was the early experience with his keepers, I don't know what happened to make that gorilla a social gorilla, but by God, when he saw other gorillas, he warmed up to him, and I remember the first day he copulated. It was one of the biggest days of my life. I just couldn't believe we've succeeded.

He had been at the zoo since nineteen fifty nine, and then it took another ten eleven twelve years to build the exhibit, so he was a singleton grilla all that time, about twenty seven years. And later on when he became a social grilla, you would have never imagined that animal could have ever been normal, because the theoreticians, people like Harlow, had discovered that when you were socially deprived or isolated long enough, he developed behaviors that made it impossible for you to be normal. But he had skills. Whether his mother and the group with his mother at somehow inoculated him with enough awareness, or whether it was the early experience with his keepers, I don't know what happened to make that gorilla a social gorilla, but by God, when he saw other gorillas, he warmed up to him, and I remember the first day he copulated. It was one of the biggest days of my life. I just couldn't believe we've succeeded.

How long did that take from the time he met his first gorilla to being intimate.

How long did that take from the time he met his first gorilla to being intimate.

Just a couple of months.

Just a couple of months.

Huh. He was able to break through the decades of isolation pretty quickly.

Huh. He was able to break through the decades of isolation pretty quickly.

Well, that's right. I don't think he really knew what to do, but the females did, and the females sort of sidled out.

Well, that's right. I don't think he really knew what to do, but the females did, and the females sort of sidled out.

They liked him. Every one of those females of that zoo that came over from your hes liked Willy Be. They used to come up to the edge of their enclosures and.

They liked him. Every one of those females of that zoo that came over from your hes liked Willy Be. They used to come up to the edge of their enclosures and.

Looking at him, and we all knew that he was attracted. And they had silverback males in the group, but they'd rather.

Looking at him, and we all knew that he was attracted. And they had silverback males in the group, but they'd rather.

Be with Willie. So when we finally put a group together for Willie Boy, I mean he had a hair, I'm.

Be with Willie. So when we finally put a group together for Willie Boy, I mean he had a hair, I'm.

Like, unbelievable, and they all liked him so much, and the little kids.

Like, unbelievable, and they all liked him so much, and the little kids.

Liked him and they played on him and he let him take food from it. He was amazing.

Liked him and they played on him and he let him take food from it. He was amazing.

That's the story I wrote, was how he had transformed himself and give him credit.

That's the story I wrote, was how he had transformed himself and give him credit.

That book will be out this summer.

That book will be out this summer.

Yeah, it'll be out, probably, be honest.

Yeah, it'll be out, probably, be honest.

One of the books you introduced me to was Franz de Wall's Chimpanzee Politics, Yeah, which opens with a male gorilla who had been bullying these two females until they decided to form a team, and then he had to be rescued by the keepers because they were going to keep kill him if they didn't get him out of the way. As a practicing politician, I found De Wall's book on chimpanzee politics just amazingly helpful and a reminder of why it's worthwhile I think for people to always have an opening to the world of wild animals and the world of systems that are beyond concrete and beyond what we live in every single day. And I think, if I remember correctly, you actually introduced me to Franz at one point and we had a good chat.

One of the books you introduced me to was Franz de Wall's Chimpanzee Politics, Yeah, which opens with a male gorilla who had been bullying these two females until they decided to form a team, and then he had to be rescued by the keepers because they were going to keep kill him if they didn't get him out of the way. As a practicing politician, I found De Wall's book on chimpanzee politics just amazingly helpful and a reminder of why it's worthwhile I think for people to always have an opening to the world of wild animals and the world of systems that are beyond concrete and beyond what we live in every single day. And I think, if I remember correctly, you actually introduced me to Franz at one point and we had a good chat.

Yeah, so remarkable man.

Yeah, so remarkable man.

He came down and gave a speech here for a first Charles Darwin birthday lecture that I set up with the University of North of Florida, and it was a brilliant speech.

He came down and gave a speech here for a first Charles Darwin birthday lecture that I set up with the University of North of Florida, and it was a brilliant speech.

He is a remarkable guy.

He is a remarkable guy.

I met him when he was a graduate student in Holland and I was very impressed with him. Of course, he became such a great prolific writer. But it is true if you know primatology, you understand human behavior much better than most people. For example, what happens when a leader falls.

I met him when he was a graduate student in Holland and I was very impressed with him. Of course, he became such a great prolific writer. But it is true if you know primatology, you understand human behavior much better than most people. For example, what happens when a leader falls.

Chaos suits.

Chaos suits.

It always does, and sometimes when this happens in humanity, people are surprised. But I'm always leaning back and saying, well, I could have predicted that, and the things that you said, coalitions and the things that happened with the primates predictors of what we do.

It always does, and sometimes when this happens in humanity, people are surprised. But I'm always leaning back and saying, well, I could have predicted that, and the things that you said, coalitions and the things that happened with the primates predictors of what we do.

We're a lot like then.

We're a lot like then.

But in a way I could just explore this with you for a minute, because you're so amazingly knowledgeable about it. There are significant differences between gorillas, chimpanzees, gibbons, orangutans and how they interacted and how they sort of keep score with life. I mean, so in a sense, you can learn something from each one of them. Although I would guess that we're probably more like chimpanzees and gorillas than we are like orangutans and givens. That's my highly unprofessional observation.

But in a way I could just explore this with you for a minute, because you're so amazingly knowledgeable about it. There are significant differences between gorillas, chimpanzees, gibbons, orangutans and how they interacted and how they sort of keep score with life. I mean, so in a sense, you can learn something from each one of them. Although I would guess that we're probably more like chimpanzees and gorillas than we are like orangutans and givens. That's my highly unprofessional observation.

Well, certainly there's no singular I mean model that answers every question, but genetically we're more similar to chimpanzees than any other species. Gorillas are posts are close, orangutans a little more distant, but they all have very big brains. But they have different social systems. The gorilla lives in family groups, chimpanzee lives in large aggregations. Orangutans are semi solitary. Givens and seamongs is so called lesser apes are monogamous.

Well, certainly there's no singular I mean model that answers every question, but genetically we're more similar to chimpanzees than any other species. Gorillas are posts are close, orangutans a little more distant, but they all have very big brains. But they have different social systems. The gorilla lives in family groups, chimpanzee lives in large aggregations. Orangutans are semi solitary. Givens and seamongs is so called lesser apes are monogamous.

They are one of the very.

They are one of the very.

Few primates that's truly monogamous. So all of these things are out there telling us that somehow we evolved with a little.

Few primates that's truly monogamous. So all of these things are out there telling us that somehow we evolved with a little.

Bit different way of behaving.

Bit different way of behaving.

But they were pressures that made us who we are in the same way they were. They evolved and in many ways, the big brain is what really separates humans from all the other primates, and physiologists have determined that the human brain shouldn't be as big as it is. If you looked at the primates in some kind of phylogenetic order, they line up as a beautiful regression line until you get the humans, and then it jumps up.

But they were pressures that made us who we are in the same way they were. They evolved and in many ways, the big brain is what really separates humans from all the other primates, and physiologists have determined that the human brain shouldn't be as big as it is. If you looked at the primates in some kind of phylogenetic order, they line up as a beautiful regression line until you get the humans, and then it jumps up.

Something happened with humans.

Something happened with humans.

I won't speculate on what that is, but it might be it has something to do with religion.

I won't speculate on what that is, but it might be it has something to do with religion.

We're certainly different, and that is Christ.

We're certainly different, and that is Christ.

I had a tiny taste of your life a few years back. We went to Rwanda and went up to about nine thousand feet on the mountain that Jane Fosse had been on and actually got to see a fairly large family of gorillas. And when you're out there in the wild, it is amazing just the impact psychologically that they have, and also how relatively unaggressive they are if you don't get too close to them. I mean, they don't see you as a threaten and they don't particularly want to go out and threaten you.

I had a tiny taste of your life a few years back. We went to Rwanda and went up to about nine thousand feet on the mountain that Jane Fosse had been on and actually got to see a fairly large family of gorillas. And when you're out there in the wild, it is amazing just the impact psychologically that they have, and also how relatively unaggressive they are if you don't get too close to them. I mean, they don't see you as a threaten and they don't particularly want to go out and threaten you.

Well, sorry to believe that people used to think that they were very dangerous creatures that had to be hunted and feared. Gargantua the gorilla was an example of that king gone. But nothing could be further from the truth. When you go and see real guerrillas now, they will fight, they'll defend themselves that they need to. The cellar back mail is very impressive, but when they're there in the little group, it's the most peaceful thing they'll ever see. I'm glad you had that privilege, because it really is a privilege to set them on mon grulas and enjoy their company.

Well, sorry to believe that people used to think that they were very dangerous creatures that had to be hunted and feared. Gargantua the gorilla was an example of that king gone. But nothing could be further from the truth. When you go and see real guerrillas now, they will fight, they'll defend themselves that they need to. The cellar back mail is very impressive, but when they're there in the little group, it's the most peaceful thing they'll ever see. I'm glad you had that privilege, because it really is a privilege to set them on mon grulas and enjoy their company.

You know, I'm very impressed, Torry. I don't know have year range of experience, but I've been in zoo's in a number of countries and consistently they are a magnet for families with young children, and it's just astonishing. You know, you'll see people with babies and baby carriages or in strollers, and it's clear that going to the zoo is one of the things that they do regularly that they get something out of just the experience of being in that kind of an environment.

You know, I'm very impressed, Torry. I don't know have year range of experience, but I've been in zoo's in a number of countries and consistently they are a magnet for families with young children, and it's just astonishing. You know, you'll see people with babies and baby carriages or in strollers, and it's clear that going to the zoo is one of the things that they do regularly that they get something out of just the experience of being in that kind of an environment.

Yeah, families are They're a number one target mark. At the same time, those zoos are becoming more exclusive. They're beginning to reach out to all populations. There are more and more young people who don't want to have children, I'm sorry to say, and they need places to go as well. So we are beginning to understand that the diversity of humans, with all their different needs and interests and tendencies, they need zoos too. I've seen zoos doing remarkable things to cater to all segments of society, and particularly the minority communities, which have not been the target of zoos in the past, in part because zoos were attempting to build a strong financial connections with these communities, so they saw the wealthier suburbs as the place to raise money and spent more time attending to those places. This got the Zoo and lantin trouble. And by the way, just a small technical detail, the Zoological Society never got the Zoo. They wanted it, but because they were well, lily white and not diverse. The mayor young and the others in the city that decided to change things decided.

Yeah, families are They're a number one target mark. At the same time, those zoos are becoming more exclusive. They're beginning to reach out to all populations. There are more and more young people who don't want to have children, I'm sorry to say, and they need places to go as well. So we are beginning to understand that the diversity of humans, with all their different needs and interests and tendencies, they need zoos too. I've seen zoos doing remarkable things to cater to all segments of society, and particularly the minority communities, which have not been the target of zoos in the past, in part because zoos were attempting to build a strong financial connections with these communities, so they saw the wealthier suburbs as the place to raise money and spent more time attending to those places. This got the Zoo and lantin trouble. And by the way, just a small technical detail, the Zoological Society never got the Zoo. They wanted it, but because they were well, lily white and not diverse. The mayor young and the others in the city that decided to change things decided.

To build a new board.

To build a new board.

And this board is one of the things that made Atlanta unique. The society stayed as a support group and they were very important, but the wisdom of our board was it was gender balanced, it was balanced for ethnicity. You know, in Atlanta it's primarily black white. That's the issue then, and I think probably one of the first nonprofits in Atlanta that was built that way. And at the same time, the city said, we're giving this to the private business sector. We're not going to run the zoo anymore, but we will accept a public private partnership down the line when you need bonding, will be.

And this board is one of the things that made Atlanta unique. The society stayed as a support group and they were very important, but the wisdom of our board was it was gender balanced, it was balanced for ethnicity. You know, in Atlanta it's primarily black white. That's the issue then, and I think probably one of the first nonprofits in Atlanta that was built that way. And at the same time, the city said, we're giving this to the private business sector. We're not going to run the zoo anymore, but we will accept a public private partnership down the line when you need bonding, will be.

There for you.

There for you.

But we're not going to take the credit and we're not going to take the blame for what happens anymore. It's up to you, Bob Holder and some of these business people that took over. So the private sector, the society, and the business community they stepped up. But it was a remarkable partnership. I talk about it a lot in my new book. It's kind of amazing that the corporate, government and academic communities came together in this thing and found common ground and new I think, you know, as we've talked about this, Zoolana was the Furst Zoo and as a to private pize, and that trend has now spread all over the country. Most news are some kind of public private partnership. Very few of them are run by government alone.

But we're not going to take the credit and we're not going to take the blame for what happens anymore. It's up to you, Bob Holder and some of these business people that took over. So the private sector, the society, and the business community they stepped up. But it was a remarkable partnership. I talk about it a lot in my new book. It's kind of amazing that the corporate, government and academic communities came together in this thing and found common ground and new I think, you know, as we've talked about this, Zoolana was the Furst Zoo and as a to private pize, and that trend has now spread all over the country. Most news are some kind of public private partnership. Very few of them are run by government alone.

I mean, you're an enormous pioneer. In fact, you have written extensively, and on our show page we're going to list your current books and we're also going to prelist your upcoming book on Willie B so people be able to get it, and I hope sometimes we can come back together again as old friends. I want to get you just to talk about animals. I mean, I love animals. I think we have a lot of folks who love animals, and you have some amazing stories and a depth of knowledge that's pretty remarkable. And you're a great citizen both for the country and frankly for the wildlife that we have to have a positive strategy of trying to sustain. So Terry, I want to thank you. This has been remarkable. Even though I've known you from gosh over forty years, I know you a lot better after this conversation.

I mean, you're an enormous pioneer. In fact, you have written extensively, and on our show page we're going to list your current books and we're also going to prelist your upcoming book on Willie B so people be able to get it, and I hope sometimes we can come back together again as old friends. I want to get you just to talk about animals. I mean, I love animals. I think we have a lot of folks who love animals, and you have some amazing stories and a depth of knowledge that's pretty remarkable. And you're a great citizen both for the country and frankly for the wildlife that we have to have a positive strategy of trying to sustain. So Terry, I want to thank you. This has been remarkable. Even though I've known you from gosh over forty years, I know you a lot better after this conversation.

One knew. It is a pleasure.

One knew. It is a pleasure.

Thank you to my guest doctor Terry Maple. You can read more about why zoos Matter on our show page at newtsworld dot com. News World is produced by Gainglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Ginglish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld concerner from my three free weekly columns at ginglishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich.

Thank you to my guest doctor Terry Maple. You can read more about why zoos Matter on our show page at newtsworld dot com. News World is produced by Gainglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Ginglish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld concerner from my three free weekly columns at ginglishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich.

This is newts World

This is newts World