Episode 30: How Foreign Countries Cheat in Global Trade

Published Aug 25, 2019, 9:00 AM

Newt talks with trade attorney, David Ross and two CEOs of American-owned businesses about subsidies, dumping and trans-shipment - examples of how foreign countries cheat in global trade.  

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On this episode of Nettworld, as we continue to hear about the trade war with China and other countries, I wanted to attempt to provide context as to why the trade discussion is so important and how our international trade policy affects the prosperity of American businesses. On this episode, we'll look at how foreign countries cheat in global trade, including exploring the trade issues of subsidies, dumping, and transshipment. And you'll meet the CEOs of two American owned businesses who will explain how their companies were affected by global trade and equities. My guests are David J. Ross, international trade specialist and partner at wilmer Hale, Roddy Dowd, CEO of Charlotte Pipe and Foundry, and Paul Wellborn, President and CEO of Wellborn Cabinet, Inc. Here's David Ross of wilmer Hale. Thank you for joining us to talk about the emerging complexities of the international trade. You're a wilmer Hail now, but you really have quite a background in international trade. When I went to law school, I focused on international trade and got a master's in international law in additions to my law degree, and then went from law school to the Commerce Department to practice trade law, and I found now for twenty five years doing trade in different capacities. Part of what I'm struck by as a historian is that the issue of trade negotiation and trade enforcement is constantly evolving. One decade solutions just lead to really smart people figuring out new approaches, and then you have another generation finding ways to try to get around that. A long time ago, I was the ranking Republican on the Aviation Subcommittee, and I used to represent the Atlanta Airport. It's a fascinating business, but it's one where our trade policies have not been as helpful at putting together the real world as opposed to the theoretical world. You've always had these challenges of foreign government owned operations that find ways to get around the rules. That's right. You were working on the issue at the dawn of the open sky Earth. So historically aviation was done through bilateral agreements where there were strict restrictions on who could serve the market, how many flights per day, and whatnot. Then in the late eighties early nineties, the US developed this open sky approach where the basic theory was that the government would get out of the way and airlines would have full freedom to fly where they wanted based on market demand. It actually it worked out pretty well for the most part. But it's interesting if you look back at the original DOT policy statement that they issued in nineteen ninety five, one thing they touched on was the idea that subsidy could distort competition, but they said, I remember this was the early nineties when capitalism was really on the march and communism headfallen. They said, it's not really a big problem though, because no government can control all aspects of its air traffic infrastructure. And that was two of the time, but it hasn't borne out in a few cases over the last twenty years, the big examples being in the UAE and Cutter, who have decided that they were going to make their aviation systems core to their economy and to really massively grow their airlines with a lot of subsidy to make that possible, and that's had a real impact on carries around the world. They've basically been able to take oil and gas money to subsidize these airlines in a way that it's totally alien from how we do things. That's exactly right, and it's an issue. The three areas are Dubai and Abu Dhabi in the UAE, and then Cutter. They're all doing more or less the same thing. They're using money to massively expand their airlines. They're buying huge wide body fleets of aircraft, much bigger fleets than anyone else, and because these countries are so small, they don't have a whole lot of a domestic market. So what they've done is they've gone out and they're targeting all the international markets and traffic from Asia to Europe, from Asia to the US. Instead of the traditional way of serving those markets, which was direct from the US or one stop via Europe, they're capturing those traffic flows and flowing them through the Gulf. And they're doing that with really aggressive capacity into the market, really aggressive pricing, and then government subsidy which allows them to keep flying despite the losses that that results in. As I understand it, even in their agreement to how they would cut back to some they've now found new ways to it around this, that's right. So basically what happened was the US airlines went to the US government and they said, look, we've documented around fifty billion dollars in subsidies that flowed into these airlines over the last ten years, and it's had a really significant impact on the market. It's hurting everybody. And so the comp administration negotiated agreements with Cutter and with the UAE that put some rules in place about market oriented financing and transparency, and one important part of that was the UAE and Cutter both gave assurances to the US government that their airlines weren't going to be launching flights between the US and Europe. And that was really important because the overcapacity that's been put into the market has basically closed the Middle East to US airlines. It's no longer possible to fly theres you can't anymore fly at US air line to the Middle East. It's had a really big impact elsewhere. The US airlines didn't want to see that happen on the Transatlantic and so that was a really important commitment. After the deal was struck, Cutter Airways what they did was they a forty nine percent interest in this little Sardinian airline called Meridiana, which was tiny airline with about ten aircraft. It was losing about fifty million dollars a year, was almost bankrupt. And what Cutter did was they put about one hundred million dollars into the airline in various ways. They gave them a bunch of Cutter Airways a three thirty aircraft, said they were going to massively expand Meridiana, rename it air Italy and use that then to serve the US europe market. They've announced flights to New York and to Miami, San Francisco, Los Angeles Air Italy. They're doing what Cutter said it wouldn't do, and they're massively underpricing on fairs and trying to buy market share. Cutters found a way to violate the agreement by a clever loophole. That's exactly right. It's basically they're using them like a shell, really a corporate shell that's Cutter Airways for all intents and purposes, except that it says Air Italy, but their Cutter Airways aircraft. There's a lot of former Cutter Airways executives. The uniform arms are Cutter Airways uniforms but with an Air Italy logo. So it's really Cutter and all. But name why has the US government not responded, Well, they have been looking at it, and they've raised concerns with Cutter. But it's still in play and we'll see where that issue is going to go. But it's not yet self. Isn't not just with Cutter. Isn't part of the game all around the world to take an advantage and then assume that it takes two, three, four years, there's not much of a clawback capacity to get the money back once it's already done. You're exactly right, so you really can't put the genie back in the bottle. And so the question is what's going to happen going forward here Italy. Right now they have five of these wide body aircraft from Cutter, so at this point they have five US routes, but they're talking about expanding that by about four percent up to twenty twenty five craft fleet within the next couple of years. So they're just going to keep expanding, and if you don't do something about it, it's going to be too late and then you have negative impact on the US air lines. But it isn't all. Italia also subsidiz my third party. The Italian government gave money to Alatalia a couple of years ago, and now the European Commission is looking at whether that money violates EU rules on state aid, because the EU has very strict anti subsidy rules that affect what governments can give their companies, but ironically they don't apply if the money is coming from a foreign government. So if Cutter gives money to air Italy that's not covered by the rules. But if the Italian government gets money to Altalia, it is covered by their rules. So you could have a situation where Alatalia may have to pay that money back if it's not to be a violation, but there's no easy mechanism under EU rules for Italy to give its money back. Part of the reason I'm intrigued with this is not only do you have these two countries that have huge amounts of cash who are trying to dominate the international airline system, but you also have the Spectru coming down the road of whatever the Chinese you're gonna end up doing, both in terms of building aircraft and in terms of competing with the subsidies because they do in a whole range of Doesn't this require that we develop a much faster turnaround of fact finding and complaining and filing than we currently have. We probably need better rules in the aviation space than we currently have on these kinds of issues, both more detailed and comprehensive rules on subsidy and then also rules on transparency. I mean, one of the challenges that's been an issue with the UAE airlines and the Cutter airlines and with a Italy is for the most part, they don't publish their financial statements and so it's very hard to dig up the evidence you need to show that their subsidies. So if there were requirements to publish that kind of information, it would be easier to figure out sooner what's going on and to take action to address it. And if you have the subside rules, you can actually then ideally have prohibitions on the front end of what's allowable, and then if you can't get that, at least have the ability to challenge and get a remedy after the fact that the cause of injury does. See European Union Anti Subsidy provision. That sense provide something worth our looking at in terms of what are their enforcement mechanisms. It's an interesting rule. It applied within the EU, and so the US would have to decide whether they wanted to have a rule within the US that wouldn't allow state level subsidies. But it's a good model for the idea of new international rules for subsidies, and it's actually something that the Trump administration has been working on in other contacts, like in the US Mexico Canada Agreement. They've got a really good chapter on state owned enterprises that would prohibit a lot of what's going on in the aviation sector, and they haven't really done that because of concerns about what's going on in Canada or Mexico. But as you say, really to set the stage for the future and future negotiations. So if, for example, there were ever talks about doing any kind of a negotiation with China, you might be able to then have a precedent for good rules to get out this kind of problem at the front end. I mean, I'm personally fascinated. As I said, I used to be the ranking member the aviation subpody. But as an everyday American, how does all this affect me? Why should I care about this? Well, it's interesting. I mean, obviously with any issues with subsidies, there's good there's bad. From the consumer perspective. On the one hand, you get good service at low prices, and who doesn't like that. But on the other hand, first of all, it impacts us jobs. Secondly, it can over time reduce choice and actually leave you in a worse position. So if we're staying on the aviation sector as an example, now you've had the golf subsidies. It's no longer possible to fly US airline to the Middle East. The US airlines have canceled all their routes to the Middle East because they weren't profitable anymore because of the overcapacity. Thirdly, because US airlines have what's called a hub and spoke network system, where you have your hubs that then are fed by smaller flights all around the country. As you start to lose your international flying, it then calls into question your ability to keep flying the smaller routes to like smaller US cities and midsize and smaller towns, and so they start to have a breakdown in the system. Now there's some other areas we have this subsidy problem, and maybe one of the most important is the question of solar cells in the guida, which the Chinese in particular have really cross subsidizing ways designed to take control of the entire market. Can you comment on that. The solar industry is one that has been dramatically impacted by Chinese subsidies and Chinese dumping of solar cells in the US market. Going back to probably about eight or ten years ago, you had a big growth in the Chinese industry, and then a big growth in Chinese X force to the US at really low prices, and it really hammered the US industry. It's driven most of the industry out of business and left them in a really hard spot. So they filed what are called anti dumping and counterbilling duty cases, so those are challenging Chinese dumping practices and Chinese subsidies, and they got remedies from the Commerce Department. But what ended up happening was the Chinese then they moved their production to Taiwan or to Malaysia, Singapore, Germany to get around the duties and started manufacturing there instead. So the US industry tried to follow them by filing new cases in all those places with some success. That's just one example of what's been an issue in China now for twenty years. It's really a massive subsidy in a whole range of sectors. Isn't this whole question of transshipment a significant problem in that sense that whether it's in steel, origin, aluminum, or what have you, transshipment is one of the big problems that US policymakers have struggled to deal with. Where countries have trade remedies put on their products, and then they try to find ways to get around those restrictions. Aluminum is one of the sectors that's really been impacted by Chinese subsidy. The Commerce Department had put trade actions in place on Chinese aluminum. What this particular producer is accused of doing was they sent what they described as aluminum pallettes into the United States, and palettes aren't anything that was subject to trade duties, and then the idea was once they come into the United States without duties, then they would just melt them down and turn them into products that actually are covered by the duties, so as a way of trying to circumvent those restrictions. And actually, according to the DOJ indictment that was announced, they avoided about two billion dollars in US tariffs through this mechanisms. It's a really big case, I think, the biggest case ever and now they've been indicted. These various methods, whether it's dumping, or it's transshipment, or it is the kind of subsidies we described with gut or UAE, all of these things ultimately end up killing American companies, in American jobs, and cutting off the resources for future innovation. That's exactly right. You end up with a situation where there may be some short term consumer benefit, but over the longer term, you're costing US jobs, and you're taking the jobs that would be created in the United States and they're being created in the foreign countries instead, and that's not good for the US economy. It's not politically sustainable either. I really really appreciate you're taking the time. Well, it's been a real pleasure of thank you. When we come back. Paul Wellburn, CEO of Wellburn Cabinets, discusses the trade issue of dumping but his company has faced. You've been listening to my conversations with Leo Grillo, founder of Delta Rescue. Delta Rescue is celebrating forty years of saving animals and providing love to abandon dogs and cats. Delta Rescue was the first no kill shelter in the United States and now the largest care for life sanctuary of his kind in the world. The stories that Leo shared on my show, like Delta, a black Doberman that started this organization, all the way to the thirty five dogs Leo found while hiking in The Angeles National Park, just warmed my heart. Delta Rescue continues to grow the on site hospital, his staff seven days a week, with veterinarians and state of the art equipment. Delta Rescue treats all diseases and conditions and up to fifteen hundred dogs, cats and horses. Delta Rescue is an incredible cause, and we know we can't take our money with us when we leave, nor do we want to leave it to the irs. Let's help our furry friends today and support this amazing cause. Go to Delta Rescue dot org slash nut for information on donations and getting involved. And right now there's some new entertaining content streaming on the site. Nuts World listeners can go to the site for two free family movies today, Magic starring Christopher Lloyd and directed by Robert Davey and The Rescuer starring Leo Grillo. Enjoy these two heartwarming movies for us animal lovers. Go to Delta Rescue dot org slash nut. That's Delta Rescue dot org slash n e wt. Here's Paul Welburne, CEO of Wellborn Cabins. Your company goes back now fifty eight years. I started on hiseo right here sixty years ago, a brother and I started making our first tabinets in Pensacola, Florida, will have there for a short time and built our first kitchen down in about nineteen fifty seven. Was your original market just around you're a part of Alabama or what was your market? We started originally my father being a home builder, remodeling, ruf and so on. My brother and I helped him as we grew up and actually started making cabinets for the home that he was building. And then you gradually developed this entire line of cabinetry. And when did you first notice the involvement of the Chinese. I would say probably fifteen years ago, but the last four years they have really stepped up what they do. As they did in the furniture industry. They will start making the complex, labor intensive parts, then they'll move into the more complete tables, chairs, and so long, and pretty soon, if you're furniture company, you became a distributor for them in most cases, and then they put their own distribution in and bypassed the furniture companies altogether. And about one hundred and thirty plants closed down around the year two thousand, so the same thing basically has been happening in the cabinet the industry the last few years, and fortunately, I think we got a little bit of a head of start. I watched this thing through the furniture design magazines through the years, and they are doing exactly the same basic thing in the cabinet industry. And there's approximate two hundred and fifty thousand jobs at stake here. What are the Chinese advantages? What are the things they do that's different than just traditional competition in the Chinese government will actually help the Chinese company. They'll give them like in the case apply would they give them logs. In our case, they'll do anything what you call dumping. If it costs one hundred fifty dollars to build a cabinet, they'll settled over here for fifty that's with the assistance of the government. What it is, this is illegal according to the laws of our country to dump and cause us to lose our jobs in this country. Here's what we find it when we started gathering the data about two years ago. China has about thirty different substy programs that they offer companies over there, and they can range anything from giving the material to build a product, elect fristy bills, those kinds of things on the subsidy side, and that's where when China does that course, that gives them an advantage and all of a sudden the turnaround and not only subsidized, but they also start dumping. And that's why these cases have two components. Dumping means they just come in and they look at an industry and they see a kitchen cabinet industry of about ten billion dollars and they say, we want it. So they undersell that market cheaper than what we can even produce it and sell it till the domestic market has gone, and then they'll raise their pricessulti is what happens. That's what China has been doing. It takes them a while to navigate through an industry and learn, you know, all the channels to market and things like that. But when they finally figure it out, that's they go pretty much full force. And since the recession is when they really have done that to our industry. Like my father said, we've been watching them for somewhere around fifteen years coming to our trade shows. We manufacture everything in house, make our own parts, components, and we do it all with domestic hardwoods, domestic clowdwoods, everything that we use. We do our absolute best to keep domestic here. But when we look at the costs that they're selling products, we can take our labor costs and our material costs to zero and they're still under our prices. It's just an unfair and like I said, this story is in many different industries out there. This is just one of many. The thing that they have done with some of the trade laws in the last few years is you don't have to basically lose your industry before you can win a case. Here's Paul Welburn, CEO of Wellborn Cabints. As Stephens said, we do everything we can to control our cost so even at everything that we do in house here, we cannot compete. And our customers that say in the Northeast, for instance, when we traveled in that area, they tell us they can no longer compete because the Chinese have put a warehouse and around major cities and they'll come in twenty to forty inercent below you in price. So it's just a matter of time. If something is not done, will go the way of the furniture and many other industries and This is actually a lot of American jobs, isn't it. What's your estimate of how many jobs are involved? Approximate two hundred and fifty thousand jobs according to the studies it's been done. We've kept the focus directly on our employees. We have thirteen hundred employees here and that's what it's about. It's keeping that way of life and you know the availability of those jobs for them. Stephen Welburn explains the impact Welburn Cabinets has head on their small town in Alabama. The industry is very diverse. I mean it ranges from several companies that may have a two and a half billion dollars revenue, which is the largest non industry, all the way down to a five men shop it might have one million dollars and those are spread all across rural America. And that's kind of how diverse our industry is. These are small communities. In the town that we are in is only twenty five hundred people. 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Protect your retirement in savings with physical assets like gold and silver. Nobody knows when the next financial crisis will happen. Get prepared by talking to the Oxford Gold Group by calling one eight three three three two seven nine four seven two, or by visiting Oxford Goldgroup dot com slash News World. Financial security is just a phone call away. Here's Roddy Down, CEO of Charlotte Pipe. Charlotte Pipe is over one hundred years old. Corrects are our great grandfather founded in nineteen oh one. That's amazing. You're now the largest maker of cast down and plastic pipe and fittings in the country, is there right? That's correct sor we have great customers and great associates. Our cast iron foundry is in downtown Charlotte. We're literally a stone's throw from the panther Or Football Stadium. And then our largest plastic pipe and fitting plant is probably twenty miles east of near Monroe, North Carolina. And then we've got other plastic pipe and fitting plants in Pennsylvania, in Florida, in Alabama, in Texas, in Utah. So you're a significant American employer. Yeah. Sorry, We've got about fifteen hundred and forty great folks working with us. That's great. Now, as I understand that the Chinese competition for you is sort of amazingly direct in how they're just trying to mimic you out of business, can you talk a little bit about this company in China. We've been fighting the Chinese for over thirty years where they've dumped subsidized product in the United States on cast iron. That's been our major battle. A couple of years ago, one of our international guys was as a trade show and he was walking down an aisle and he saw a company called Charlotte Pipe and Foundry, and he kind of scratched his head and said, well, I work for Sharlotte Pipe and Foundry. In this case, there's a company in Shanghai called Yette Plastics, and they know that we've got a brand name that's recognized around the world, and they lifted it and registered it in China in two thousand and ten. And in fact, they've got our trademark on a neon sign on a building in Shanghai, and that just shocked the heck out of us. They can't ship their products with their name into the United States because we've got trademark registration here. But when we try to ship into China, which is of course practically possible since they block Americans out, but certainly in other Asian countries, which is the real Charlotte part. So we've got two issues. We've got the subsidy and dumping, which is the day and day out stuff on both cast down and plastics. And then we've got the intellectual property South issue, where they've stolen our trademark. If you get an American trademark, I guess that doesn't automatically protect you worldwide, doesn't I mean you have to go around and get trademarked in every country, or is there some kind of mutual recognition of trademarks. You really need to go country by country to register your trademark. We don't selling in all of the countries in the world, but the one that we do target we now have our trademark registered. Did you only start doing that after you saw the Chinese installing it or had you already begun doing that before you knew about the Chinese. It was such a brazen thing that got our attention, but we of course didn't expect anybody would lift our trademark. It just was beyond the pale. But with the Chinese, nothing's beyond the pale. The most important thing is is that we've finally been successful in bringing two trade cases before the International Trade Commission. One case we filed in seventeen and the other one we filed an eighteen on cast iron piping fittings, and we won them both and achieved significant countervailing duties against the Chinese, which has finally leveled the playing field. After having our guts spilled out for thirty years, finally we've got a level playing field. What would you say to if somebody in a different industry came to you and said they're beginning to have the problem you had. What would your advice be. First advice that I would have is make sure that you're measuring how much of the product is coming in. Know exactly how much is coming in, and if you have a handle on how big the market is, try to measure the shift from domestic production to foreign production. And if you see a measurable impact both on your selling price or your market share. The next thing you need to do is engaged. If you have the financial means, you need to engage a good trade attorney in Washington. In that part of the law, they're just a few good specialist trade lawyers and they're all in DC. They're expensive, but they know what they're doing. It's a very pure you're part of the law, and you've got to get a specialist. I measure the stuff. Then I'd engage a trade attorney to see if you've got a legitimate case to bring before the ITC and Commerce and the good ones will be very honest with you and say there's not enough damage. You're premature. Now, that's the real fatal flaw in our trade laws and they've been fixed a little bit. It's like a patient who's been shot and he's bleeding out. Well, they're going to treize you at commerce or itc based upon who's down to the last unit of blood, and so you've got to be pretty badly hurt to be able to bring a case. Though there has been a little bit of a remedy in recent years in the trade law that at least you don't have to be on your last breath present a case, but it's essential to get a good attorney. It sounds to me like we're going to need to revisit some aspects of our trade laws to provide greater strength for American businesses and to provide greater sanctions against people who are deliberately cheating. We definitely do listen. This has been very, very helpful. We really appreciate what you're doing for the American work or by highlightingness. Charlotte Pipe, I've had the most wonderful people, and they deserve good, high paying job. In highlighting the trade thing helps them have a secure future, and so we're very grateful that you would include us. One thing is clear, the Chinese are cheating, and both the American people and American businesses are suffering. One of the things we've uncovered in this episode is how sometimes small American owned businesses simply cannot afford the expense of high profile trade lawyers who are mostly based in Washington, DC. It is time for us to reevaluate the laws on trade and make sure that if an American company's being harmed, that there are ways that can protect itself and can guarantee that it can afford to stay in the game even when the Chinese government is cheating. We have to empower American businesses to defend themselves, and that's going to require rethinking some of our trade laws and how they are applied. Thank you to my guest David Ross of Wilmerhaile, Roddy Doubt of Charlotte Pipe and Foundry, and Paul Wellborn and his team at Welburn Cabinets, Stephen Welborn and Shadrick McGill. You can read more about how foreign countries cheat in global trade on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by Westwood One. Our executive producers Debbie Myers, and our producer is Gornsey Slump. Our editor is Robert Boroski, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. Our guest booker is Grace Davis. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. The music was composed by Joey self. Special thanks to the team at Gingwich three sixty and Westwood Ones, John Wardock and Robert Mathers. Please email me with your comments at newt at newtsworld dot com. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about on the next episode of Newtsworld. You know him for hit shows like Dirty Jobs and his podcast The Way I Heard It. Micro was a great entertainer and a great emerge for Labor Day. We're sharing stories about the skilled workers who have crossed Mike's path. The importance of work and rose fascinating on. My grandfather was ill ninety and dyet and my mother called me at my desk at CBS and said, Mike, before your grandfather dies, wouldn't it be nice if you could turn on the television and see you doing something that looked like work. I laughed and I said, yeah, that would be great, and so I went out and I started filming a series that turned into Dirty Jobs. I'm New Gangwich. This is Newsworld, the Westwood one podcast network.

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