Support comes from the Thirdgod Marshall College Fund. Black students take on a disproportion of the amount of dat nilar twice to load to fund their education. Thurgod Marshall College Fund is on a mission to end the student loan crisis by creating scholarship programs for any student with an ambitious spirit. Our scholarships programs are primarily a merit based design to assist students with any portion of their account balance that requires self paid or loan. At Thurgod Marshall College Fund, we believe anyone's thriving to be someone should be championed by everyone. More information is available at Who's Next dot TMCF dot org. Welcome to money making Conversations. It's to show that she is the secrets of success experience firsthand by marketing and Brandon expert Rashan McDonald. I will know he's given me advice to many occasions. In occasion didn't notice I'm not broke. You know he'll be interviewing celebrity CEOs and entrepreneurs and industry decision makers. It's what he likes to do, It's what he likes to share. Now it's time to hear from man Rashan McDonald money Making Conversations Here we come. Welcome to Money Making Conversation master Class. I'm your host, ra Shan McDonald. I want to hear from you in d Like I always say, this is a podcast that's built from you, a radio show that's built from you. So many different platforms you can view this form of entertainment. I recognize that we all have different definitions of success. For you and maybe decide to your paycheck minds inspire you to accomplish your goals and live your very best life. It's time to stop reading other people's success stories and start writing your own. People always talk about their gifts. If you have a gift for a purpose, leave with your gifts and they'll let your friends, family, or coworkers stop you from planning or living your dreams. We're always discussing how to overcome the arts in life. My guest today is a perfect guest and discussing that Matter's name is Ben Jealous, Business in New York Times bestselling author, scholar, journalists, civil rights leader, and philanthropists. Currently serve as President of the CEO or People for the American Way and Professor of the Practice University of pennsil He was formerly when I met him, president of the CEO of the NAACP, the youngest one at the time and great leader. Man. I always find great time and great conversations when I was managing Steve Harvey at the time director of the Human Rights Program at amerstad to National USA and executive director of the National Newspaper Publishers Association. He's on the show to discuss this new book, never to forget our people are always free. Wow, people should always remember that. Please work with the money making conversations, masterclass, being jealous. How are you doing, sir. It's always good to see you, sir. Great to be great to be with. Hey, Ben, you know when I read that title, you know, you look at how society or you look how people are pushing back on trying to understand our history and saying, hey, you know, you know our children maybe feel uncomfortable learning about America and how it was really built. And then but information that it was so much information I took from your book, and I'm gonna just say this in a very comical way, because there were so many lanes of ethnicity or they white, they have white, they black, they black white. This is not a book. Ladies and gentlemen, did you skim through because you might not know if you skim past this person was white, this person was black. So you really really really taught me a lesson on this book. Been I better read every page very very carefully. I know that wouldn't a trick moved, but that was a detail of how you would putting in perspective racial understanding of this country and how the racists have intermingled over the years. Correct, yes, so you know I was not just trying to decode some of My grandma would always say, when is that happened to be? The title? The books say, never forget our people were always free? And well three of her four grandparents were born into slavery, and the fourth one, my grandma's sister, would tell you had raped one of my grandmother's grandmother. So my question to her was like, well who was free though rapist? Like this doesn't make any sense, right, right, right, right. But the funny thing, you know, our elders can say things and we hear them say it, and we sort of we internalized the sound and we internalized the way it feels, and then we say it without critically thinking about the meeting of the words, and my grandmother's grandmother said that her mother said that, as far as we can tell, the grandmother's Before that, I saw my sister start to repeat it, and as a civil rights guy, I was just like, this doesn't make any sense, Like what do you mean. Henry Lewis Gates Junior helped me trace my grandmother's maternal line where the saying echoing down right, and then we found the place where it made sense the very beginning. The first woman to come and my grandmother's maternal line to America. The matriarch of our maternal line was an Afro Polynesian pirate from Madagascar. Only seventeen slave ships come to what is now the United States from Madagascar. Nine of them land in Virginia, eight land in New York. All but one of them was piloted by a known European pirate. These were not traditional slave ships. These were ships from a pirate war, and when the European pirates would win a battle, they would occasionally enslave the able bodied people in the village and ship them to America to be sold. And well, if the women kept repeating this, you go all the way back to the first one in the United States. What else would a pirate woman say to her children and grandchildren born into slavery, but never forget our people who are always free, And and how would she say it? She would say it as a call to insurrection. A people who knew that their people had been free are people who would then decide that freedom must be their destiny and that they would fight for it. And so this was a battle cry is handed down through the generations. In my family, we know battle cry, you know. I come from Inner City, six usters, two brothers, both my parents when was a truck driver, thirty grade education. Mom graduated from high school, had an option to go to college, but she had nine kids and so I raised me as best as you can. I think she did a good job, all of us. And we look at when we look at the perspective of how African America are people a couple have perceived in this country. What is your take on that by the by the media, Yes, you know, it's it hurts everybody. You know, we were prior to the Civil Rights movement, images of the poor in America were of white people. After the Civil Rights movement, one of the ironic things that changed was virtually all of the images in the media poor people are back black and brown people. It hurts black and brown people because you know, we we walk into a room and people assume that we're an extension of the headline or the photograph they just saw the newspaper. Right. It also hurts a lot of poor what people because when the images shift shifted, so did public support for anything public, public housing, public education, public health. All of a sudden, the imagination is that just helps black and brown people. And if most of you know, the biggest group of citizens are white, they're like, well, why should we support that? That's not about us? And yet the biggest group of poor has always been one absolutely and you know, so the racism makes the poverty in our community hyper visible, and it makes the probably in the white community invisible, and both groups suffer. That is absolutely truth. I always say that, you know, you know, you you popularize in the stereotype, but you heard in the real problem. And that's what you're just stating right there. Well, put and I'd give you an example of that. You know, I'm from Baltimore. My mom grew up in the housing projects there, and a lot of my cousins lived not too far there from and in Baltimore. For like eighty years, the only discussion of opiate addiction was about rowin and heroin. Addicts were stereotyped as black, and the attitude was lock them up right, And then sheriffs and the mid South, the Midwest and other places in the in the early two thousands got increasingly uncomfortable with the fact that they kept catching bodies, you know, they kept picking up corpses of people overdosing on opiates, and nobody was talking about increasing rehab. Nobody was talking about dealing with the addiction epidemic. And so they started publishing the faces of the corpses the people who were dying in their community. Well, the majority were white. And suddenly the public policy conversation shifted. And my book Never Forget We're Always Free, Never forgot our people were always free. I go, you know, I talked about this. Suddenly the policy debate went from like eighty years of nonsense trying to treat addicts like criminals to those common sense was given more rehab, we have to deal with this as a health crisis again, because the full face of the problem was visible. I was speaking Ben Jealous's book Never Forget how people were always free? Before I go back into the book, you know when I met you and you remember we're always setting up interviewers on the Steve Harvor Morning Show. In regards to interview and you getting the word out, the NCP voting and everything, Yep, absolutely, Um, when you look at social media and technology, has technology helped the NCP in your eyes? Are just because it's always because the title has always been an issue colored people, and some people say that title has has seen as time. When you look at where the NAACP, because it definitely still serves a purpose. It's still is our primary voice when we're when when civil rights issues are being challenged, who's the first challenges but nab ATP. So when you look at technology, has technology helped position h the NCP in modern times? You know, I am when I started, the NACP had thirty thousand people on its mobile list. No, I'm sorry, we had five thousand. We had five thousand texts, you know, phone numbers we could organize people with. We had one hundred and seventy five thousand email addresses. When I left, we had one point four million email addresses we had four hundred and thirty thousand mobile phone numbers, and technology definitely makes it easier to organize. Now. On the other hand, Facebook, which works on algorithms, has become a massive rabbit hole for for conspiracy theorists, and it has helped to multiply hate groups and combine them with each other. So now you have al Kada talking to white supremacists, for instance, and you have the you know, the the the old KGB, it's a new acronym uh fomenting white supremacists. So technology, i'd say, is a mixed back. But as an organizer, it's made it a lot easier. When I was with the black newspapers helping eighty of them online eight or online when I started two years later, we brought eighty online. So I'm all for embracing technology to spread good information in our community, to organize people better. We do have to recognize though, that social media and the algorithms have definitely made it easier for the hate groups to multiply, and we need and frankly the companies need to shut that that aspect down. They got to figure out how to stop spreading hate absolutely, you know, and that you know, Hayden. Some ways. I always tell people, you know, when you have the algorithm, that's what people say, you know, succeeded and allowed Some people up said the reason President Trump was elected because he had the algorithm to be able to talk to the people he needed to talk to, convince him, convince him of this rhetoric or these stereotyped information that basically in some ways out of fear, they voted for him because they didn't they thought it was about this was about to happen if he wasn't elected president. But you have a well, I gotta tell you, man, like the the context for authoritarian movements in our society is always poverty. Yes, you know, we we have let too many black folks and too many white folks, and entire communities and even sections of states. You and I know a lot of those sections of states. Well, they're in Texas, there in Louisiana, there in Mississippi, in Alabama, and they're in New York State. They're in Pennsylvania, are in California too, And there's entire communities I feel like they are forgotten, and white men who don't have college degrees feeling the Democratic Party doesn't even think about them. And black men without college degrees often feel the same way too. And so if we really want to stop the growth of authoritarian movements and hate movements and those who would turn our democracy into a mockery, we have to get back to what doctor King was calling all of us to do when he was assassin. He was not assassinated leading a desegregation battle. He was assassinated leading the poor people's campaign. You know, when you know the uh, the co Intel program, the FBI right wasn't just about he said, prevent the rise of Black Messiah. They weren't worried about a black person leading black people. That were fine with that. They were most worried about a black person leading the poor. And that's why there was celebration so many FBI offices with doctor King's assassinated. Wow. You know, um information is everybody. I'm talking speaking of Ben Jealous. We're talking about his book Never Get Our People are always free in reference to who we are in a world that tends to say that you're limited based on the color of your skin. That's always been the challenge. You know, you have a light complexion tone in your book, you know you talk about different experiences. Some of them are you know, when you look at it, you know it can be sperceived as humors. I talked to you before the interview. We talked about the Renaissance Festival, and I, my wife and I we go to the Renaissance Festival. We dress up and we by these giant turkey legs and and for some reason we thought were fitting in. But it was fun. And then you said, hey, this is not the ring Stuce festival that you have used to. This was a gathering. And at that gathering you found you you found. It was a profound moment because because you found the relative and in a part of the country that you didn't expect. You're just going there just to be social. Now when you get you talk about Gates, that's what he does. So when you were sitting down, you knew exactly what he was doing and you wanted to get the information. When you found out that gathering, sitting next to somebody, that had to be an eye opener. And as you said, you gulped on your drink several times. Yeah, no, I mean I literally, you know, I sit down next to this this couple, she's younger than her that it looked like maybe fifteen years like that was the most interesting thing, I guess. So I started taking out where are y'all from? Right? He's like, loose ghettos. I'm like anybody from there? That was an apport when I was a kid. Where are you from? He's like, I'm from were your wife from southern Virginia? And where is the jam Petersburg? Or my family's in Petersburg? What's her? What's her family names? And I'm like, I mean, I'm a little buzzed at this point. After a cocktails and and and he says, well, her maiden name is Bland. Well, my grandmother's maiden name is Bland. So I cut him off. I say Bland because yeah, Bland. He was wise. Oh brother, I don't know how to put this, but I think your wife's family is telling my mom's family. And I'm looking at this lady. He's staring you say what did I do? You said you think that your wife's family may have owned your mom's fair? Yeah, him, I think your wife's family. You know, he's from Minnesota, so he has he ain't prepared, you know, he based this because baby, we gotta push seats out, you know, the problem and today seat and he looks at me right right, and I'm looking at her. I'm like, wow, you look like my grandma. He's looking at me like, oh yeah, baby, give me a kiss. How you I have black family? And I'm like, because who was like eighty years old, you know, I'm like, it's like give her. It gives her on the cheating right right right right? And and Henry Little Skates Junior years later would uh verify, would get our DNA and prove that we we just send from the same plantation owner. We both to send from Thomas Jefferson's grandma. We were related a couple of different ways. Uh, should we include our Robert Robert Elie Robert Lee? Yeah? Man, can we let that slide this conversation? Bit? Did we let that slide in this conversation? You know, Robert E. Lee? That's different conversation. Talk about dabilization. Well that was the thing, right. So We're both members of the Blands family. And so I'm writing the book and I'm like, oh, we just go on Wikipedia. The Blands are one of the founding families of Virginia. They signed the Declaration Independence all that stuff. So it was like let me just go on there and see who else descends from the Bland family. And I see Robert Lee. I'm I'm the former president and ACP, and the former head of the Confederate Army was my cousin. Wow, but it got deeper, man, it got deeper. Here's the thing. So, Richard Yates Bland, who was the man who owned my grandmother's grandfather and my grandmother's great grandfather and their families, has one paragraph in his will protecting my grandmother's great grandfather, and it's the only slave person that he mentioned in his will. And he has multiple sentences defining what the rest of his life shall be like, clearly protecting him. Right, And between that and my DNA, Harry Louise Gates Junior concluded, your great grandfather was the owner's older brother, and the owner knew it. He was older brother by six years older, half brother. They would have grown up in the same nursery. They would have understood that they shared blood, that they shared a father, and the younger brother, who was the owner, was the older brother was dying and he wanted to protect his brother, right, He wanted to protect his brother. The you know it was it didn't really were taught that race as a wall, were taught that, you know, plantations were these terribly inhumane places and they were Nothing really prepares you to find a slave owner protecting his brother who was enslaved in a will and then you realize, you know, that's your great great grandfather, and then you realize that he knew that. And the Blands were big supporters of the Confederacy of the White Blands, and they were very proud that Robert E. Lee was their cousin. So when my grandmother's great grandfather and a grandfather and the you know, the entire family walked out of slavery in the last day of the Civil War, right after the Battle of Aplthematics, they walked out knowing that the man who just surrendered was their cousin. And the question is what impact does it have on the people? And I would say because it goes back to what word you use earlier, hubris, Because they come right out of slavery and they ultimately take over the state. My grandmother's grandfather, the son you know of the great grandfather who was the brother of the owner, the nephew of the owner, fifteen years later is the head of the Black Republicans in Virginia. He's in his early thirties. The Ha Tilden Compromise was signed that ended reconstruction. That's how the black soldiers got shifted out to the west to become Buffalo soldiers, you know, fighting the Indians and um. And yet Jim Crow hadn't started yet. There were still large number of blacks in the legislature and the plantation owners them were going to shut down these public schools, and the poor whites rebelled like like, heck you are. I mean, I know that these black dominated governments started them, but our kids benefited from them. And he ends up joining up with a former Confederate general. They build a populist movement, multi racial takeover the Virginia government. Former Confederate soldiers formerly enslavement and take over the Virginia government. They expanned Virginia Tech to make it the workingman's rival the UVA to create the first public HBCU Virginia State, first public south of the Mason Dixon, I should say Virginia State. They saved the public schools for all the children. They abolished the whipping post. And here's the key part. They abolished the poll Tex. And why is that important? Because you know less than twenty years later the poll Tex will be put into the into the Constitution of Virginia. And we're always told that that was like an attack on black power, and it was disenfranchise eighty percent of blacks, but it also disfranchised fifty percent of whites. In other words, it outlawed the populist party that my grandmother's grandfather and where David Gland was his name, and Robert excuse me, and William B. Mahone, the protege Robert E. Lee had created. Man, did they ever teach you in school that former Confederates, former slaves got together and created a political party that took over multiple states for Junia, North Carolina. Heck no. And that's why made me mad about these statements. Dave Chappelle we met and became really really good friends. And uh, several years ago, I was in hen Sa Dame, about fifteen years and uh, I was in La and I was at the outside of the four season hotel and got in and somebody ran in and said, Hey, somebody want to see you, and it was Dave Chappelle. And when you when you talk about my relationship with Davesville started from a comedic standpoint. We did isbo dev commy jam. Now I look at the youngest member of the n WCP who leads the pack of change. You see what Dave Chappelle is today. He's a voice of reason, He's a vorce of honesty. What is your relationship all about? Friendship? His dad and mind dad were best friends. His father's my godfather, was my godfather. Go God rest his soul. Our fathers are both civil rights organizers. And Dave was said to me a bit like Paddington Bear. I'd been in New York for a year. His father was deeply worried because Dave would be the first man in the family to go sorry, the first man in the family not to go to college, since slavery is all the men in his family had been educated. David's name for Bishop William David Chappelle, who's kind of like the Paul of the am Church. A great expectation for men in that family. His father had gone to Brown University at age fifteen, and I had been in New York a year before Dave, even though we're only six months apart. And he said, look, I wanted to look out for my son in New York, and I wanted to tell him how much you led college, and so he knows it's an option if comedy doesn't work. You and I probably came across each other at the Boston Comedy Club. Absolutely I was I was the brother. Every thought it was Puerto Rican before you wid work in this Puerto Rican. So on the Chipland circle at a comedy the Still Brothers will come up by Chappelle's nole pointo Rican bodyguard. Goodness, see you brother, you know to take it. I'm proud, you know fine, I love it. You know. The first time Dave and I hung out as teenagers, we were eighteen, and I watched Dave step into the circle down near the Boston Comedy Club and Washington Square Park where Charlie Burnett would make all his money. Amazing. This is outdoor comedy, people, and that's all ways tell people. People say Dave Schappelle because Dave Schappelle did comedy outdoors, which is means people could walk by you and you had to stop him. And Charlie Burnette, God bless his soul, one of the brilliant street comedians who made his way into mainstream who passed away way before his time. Yeah, and so Dave takes over the circle and washing Spurt Park and you August Day, two hundred tourists. Dave made seven hundred and fifty bucks and fifteen minutes. And I long story short, said, man, don't worry about I'm gonna call you day. I tell him everything. But I call my godfather. I said, look, I just watched your son make seven hundred fifty bucks fifteen minutes, doing nothing illegal, just bringing joy. Everything's gonna be okay. And so you know, I've always been like a consiguliaria Dave ever since. You know, when he really needs to figure something out in business or whatever, we put heads together and we tigure out. I want to thank you for taking the time to come on Money Making Conversations, Mastercal I would teations in been we never talked. You know, we're just doing our service, and part of my service is bringing your voice to the community. And this book is amazing. I'll never get our people were always free. Written by Ben Jealous. Thank you for coming on Money Making Conversies, Masterclass. Thank you. We'll be right back with more Money Making Conversations Masterclass. With Rushan McDonald, it's time to accomplish what others deem impossible. Supreme Court Justice Katan J. Brown Jackson became the first Black woman to serve on the country's hires Court. This historical woman comes fifty five years after Justice Third Good Marshal's confirmation in nineteen sixty seven. Third Good Marshall College Fund provides HBCU and PBI students which tools to honor their greatness. We believe anyone's striving to be someone should be championed by everyone. Learn more Who's Next dot TMCF dot org. Education, Science and Technology. Historical Black colleges and universities create change. They enroll twenty percent of African American students, and despite constituting only three percent of four year colleges in the country, HBCUs have produced eighty percent of black judges, fifty percent of black lawyers, fifty percent of black doctors, forty percent of black engineers. HBCUs represent Black excellence. If you attend or are an alumnus of an HBCU, we want to hear about your story. The My HBCU Story Digital Library will allow current HBCU students and alumni to share their stories. Registration is open to everyone. More information is available at HBCU college date dot com. Click my HBCU story. Next, you can upload a photo. The photo can be recent or from when you attended your HBCU. Then share your academic or social experience at your hbc to you and how attending an HBCU changed your life. We also want to hear stories if you pledge a fraternity or sorority. The goal is to use your my HBCU story to promote and uplift the HPCU brand. Your HBCU prepared you for success and now we want everyone to read about your black excellence. More information is available at HBCU college day dot com. You can click my HBCU story to share your story. You are now tuned into the Money Making Conversations Minute of Inspiration with Rashaan McDonald. Hi, I'm Rashan McDonald for Money Making Conversation Masterclass with your daily Minute of Inspiration. My guest today is demand the comedian the Legend, George Wallace. He talks about the importance of changing with your times and innovating your reason why came to Twitter was because I had I just wanted to be a part you gotta keep state relevant. You gotta do what. I love the young people, what they're doing. Some people are not even going to television anymore. Right, there's a comedian named country Ways. Nobody know who the heath he is, but true social media, he sells out everywhere. You know, three social media to do things like you got to change a bunch of times. So Dot life, I'm on tweeting and I'm I'm going I'm going to Instagram. I'm gonna do more on Instagram. I love TikTok. I just love what the young people are doing, and I'm trying to stay young with Listen to this full interview with George Wallace. It's available on Moneymaking Conversations dot com. Now, let's return to Money Making Conversations Masterclass with Rashan McDonald. My guess is Lenora Anderson. She is the co founder and president of Alliance for Safety and Justice, a s J on the nation's largest safety and justice reform advocacy organizations. As J wakes with public officials and grassroots partners to advance smart public policy and sponsors Crime Survivors for Safety and Justice, the nation's largest organizing program for victims of crime She's also the founder of California for Safety Injustice. This was a flagship whereas an attorney with extensive experience working to reform criminal justice and public suffetice systems. She's on the show today this discuss a new book. If you're watching me, I'll be holding in my hand in Their Names, The Untold story of victim rights, mass incarceration, and the Future of public safety. Please walk into Money Making Conversation Masterclass, Lenora Anderson. How are you doing, Lenora great? Thanks for having me. Well, first of all, you know, it's a it's a two way street. You know, I have to ask and then and then the invitation has to be accepted, and and then I have to get the book, I do my homework, and then so I won't be acting the generic questions that don't lead to anything, and then you leave you and then you walk away. And did he even read my book? Yes? I did, because I think that when I when I bring a guest on like you who has something to say, and not saying that my guests don't have anything to say, but you could read a book like Let's put it this way, if you watch Game of Thrones, you pretty much you know it's gonna be some dragons. Okay, when you read a book like this, I walked away realizing I didn't understand the way society works. I was thoroughly educated. In some ways, I was saddened by my own personal ignorance because there are victims of crime who are walking around to day and don't understand that they can go get help. That is why when I got the book, I was even more enthused about interviewing. You tell us your perspective, but it's so great to hear your reflections on it. So like you described, I'm an attorney in a policy reform advocate, and I wanted to write this book because I have seen the way these myths about public safety in the United States really prevent victims from getting help and really prevent real criminal justice reform from coming about. You know, we work with survivor hours of crime all across the country, and we bring groups of survivors to meet with state legislators in capitals all across the country, states as diverse as you know, California, Texas, and when we sit down with legislators, they're always so shocked to hear that most victims of crime don't actually want all this mass incarceration. They really want rehabilitation, crime prevention, and real help after experiencing harms. So I wanted to tell that story and try and help shake up this conversation on criminal justice in the country. Well, okay, it's really interesting because when you're talking about criminal justice, you usually talk about a person of color, usually a person that looks like me. We are the number, you know, we feel these jail sales, these prisons at a rapid rate. I think your number with one out of three. When it became the Latina, I think the number was one out of six. And so why should you care about me? Well, I uh, you know, I started down this path kind of uncovering the realities of racial inequality in Americans, America's public safety system. You know, when I was a teenager, it was the eighties and nineties in California, I was getting in trouble, and um, you know what, the response to me was very different than what was happening at that time. You know, in the eighties and nineties, there was a you know, sort of tough on crime movement. There was this war on youth, especially in California. But here I am as a white female getting in trouble. Police, let me go home, teachers, let me pass classes. That down, miss and miss and you getting in trouble. You getting in trouble, the young lady, I'm looking at you look like um you guys, it's close to a pta looking person i've seen. Okay, and you used the word trouble tied to your name. I don't believe it. I don't believe what kind of trouble were you getting in. Let's stop the praising, to pump the brakes here, Leno Anderson got in trouble. I want to hear what trouble you got in that? The police said, gone, girl, don't worry about it. You know what probably typical, right, real typical teenager. Right, you know we're talking cut in school, we're talking shoplifting, you know, getting in trouble, underage drinking, and you know they're one of that kind of thing. And those are those are the realities, right, the realities are those exact things that I was doing on my sort of stumbling towards adulthood. Right, we're landing the color in jails across this country at astronomical rates. And it wasn't until you know, I was, you know, given so much grace and so many chances to try again. And it wasn't until after I graduate in law school a decade later, right, and I'm sitting in courtrooms, sitting with parents and incarcerated youth, talking to kids who are facing solitary confinement, getting pepper sprayed by guards, you know, And I was listening to the stories of these young people and realizing, really the main difference between what they started out doing and what I was doing was how the system responded right around race and class. This is a system that has it's not just who gets incarcerated that's racially biased, it's also which victims get help that's racially biased. There's racial bias at top to bottom of this whole system. When I came to realize that, I knew that I had to do something to advance racial equality right right now. And thank you for because a lot of people see things and get frustrated by the process and say, hey, they ain't my lane. That's not the experience I want. I don't have to deal with those issues now. It all goes back to your back what what what what? Along the way, you know, Like I said, I always tell people Uh, some of the things I get in college, I probably could have been in jail, you know, because if we all do stupid things, we all do things that that you go back and go, you know something all somebody to dude just stopped me. I always tell the story. I remember I was in college. I was pledged in fraternity. And when you pledged in fraternity, the big brothers, they always want you to get stuff for them. You know, they didn't give you money. You just had to come back with what they asked. And I had a little little sports car in college, and it was the feed I X one nine, and so the trunk was in the front of the car. And I remember this big brother told me, he said, look, I want some plants from my apart. I couldn't tell him I didn't have any money. And I could always remember I went and found this place and and got these plants. And and so if the plants were so big that they were sticking out of my trunk and basically blocking my windshield, I couldn't even see really, so a cop could have easily have stopped me, and and I wouldn't be had no receipt those plants, and I could have been arrested. It could have changed the direction of my life because that was some silly thing that I did because I was trying to accommodate the needs or the incredible demands of a big brother to join this organization so that so I can relate to what you're saying. But then there are some people like me. I had role models, I had people who believed in me. I had a circle of people. But then there are people out there who don't have anybody. And that's really what we're talking about in this book. The people who are perceived failures, people who have perceived targets, and guess what they become that target. People take aim on them. That's what came out of the book a lot, and not saying that's negative, but it needs to be told. And you know these are policy choices, right, I mean, you know, the reason that there's not enough youth mentors, the reason that there's not enough mental health crisis assistance responders or trauma recovery centers for victims. The reason these kinds of solutions that would help people not be alone is because we put all the money in these bloated prisons right for too long. You know, in this country. The policy choice was, Hey, we've got a problem with crime. That's a very serious problem. We've got to deal with it. We're going to solve that problem by building up this huge, enormous set of criminal justice bureaucracies, and we're going to put all the money in these prisons, mass surveillance, mass incarceration. Well, there's a real world impact of that choice, and the impact is none of the kind of supports that you're describing. Right. We're talking about solutions on the ground in communities that are operating on a dime, that have long waiting lists, and that's because the safety money that our country has doled out has gone too much to the wrong place. Absolutely, And when you talk about the wrong places called tax dollars or tax dollars, and then people using those tax dollars create big business and prison is big business. And uh, and that's that's a lot of the things that people are unaware of, you know, as as a person who looks at you and talk about different career paths and my career, you know, I wanted to be a doctor, but then I couldn't get past physics, so you know, so I eventually got my degree in mathematics, and and but I took a course in college sociology that changed my life, just really changed my perspective and really educated me on just life in general. You know. It were two courses that really I took them by accident. One to one course would say it was easy. That's why I took to sociology. And other course I was supposed to take Texas history, and I wound up taking Western European history, and I realized and I earned about the Roman Cotholicism and Lutheranism and Calvinism, and I went, wow, Europe was pretty violent. That's pretty violent country. And then but there was a career path that got me here. Please explain your career path, because it had to be certain things alone, the way it adjusted your personality to allow you to be the person who's in pursuit of justice reform. Yeah, well, you know, I really lucked out. You know, I kind of fell into social justice advocacy. You know, after I've kind of barely graduated from high school. I actually didn't go to college. But then I had a health problem and needed health insurance. My dad, who had wanted me to go to college, says, you'll be covered you're over eighteen, but you'll still be covered if you're a college student. So I went to the local junior college in San Jose, California, and didn't expect to really find college as fascinating and interesting as I did, you know, And I started taking these classes, you know, everything from psychology, like you sociology, and it helped me see the world in a different light. And then I was, you know, able to do well in junior college and then go on to Berkeley and then law school. But it was really sort of happenstance that I found myself in new environments and I'm so grateful for that. You know, you're really interesting in a good way. I say that, you know. She she just casually says, you know, she didn't really want to go to college. Needs she went to b She went to junior college because of medical reason to get insharance. Then she was in Berkeley and then she was in law school. Like you know that that leap, Like she just she's just like, you know, you know, I just love talking to people like you because you're so humble and you're so nonch a lot about the work ethic that you put in and then the gifts that you have, and then now you take those gifts and you're sharing it by trying to change people's lives, and you're doing it every day. When you wrote this book, what angered you the most about the research because you knew some of it, But when you do more research, if you find things, you go, this is disgusting. Yeah, you know. We have been my organization, Liliance for Safety and Justice. We've been organizing to perform criminal justice in public safety for a decade, and I wanted to take a step back and write this book because I knew there was a story to be told about how victims have actually been hurt by the very things that American politics say victims want all this mass incarceration, tough justice. But then when I started researching the history, You're right, there are so many things that I found shocking and devastating. Victims of crime in New Orleans, Louisiana getting arrested, the victims of domestic violence, human trafficking getting arrested to compel their testimony in court when the perpetrators are getting released on bail. That's an example. And by the way, all the victims who are arrested in that kind of situation, all low income women of color. That's what's happening, is that's kind of treatment. You know. Another example, Cleveland, Ohio. You know, this is one of the many cities across the country in the eighties and nineties that got all this federal money to build up the police departments and mostly focus on drugs and theft and sort of petty stuff. They're arresting people left and right. Meanwhile, that same city is sitting on rate kits that have never been tested. Right. So when I started really unpacking this reality, it's it just sort of it became obvious to me that disregard for victims, especially low income victims and victims of color, right, is the two sides of the same point. That's the same thing as mass incarceration. It's one systematic approach, if that makes sense. No, No, it's life is is field. We're irony, you know because doing the three strikes, because you talk about in a book three strikes and you're out. Basically that occurred under the Clinton administration, and then you have who all schools involved that time was now President Joe Biden. Okay, And within the community, you know, it's always been a feeling that you know, Bill Clinton is the black person's president, but he's responsible for for me, the black people being in jail because of that law, which sounds very simple, sound very you know, it will fix a system, but it again hurt the very people that will always be victimized, low income and people of color. And then you have Joe Biden today, who needed the black vote from the very people that he backed a bill on. That type of irony places itself over and over again, and it keeps coming back on the communities that need the most resources, that need the most support. And when you read a book like yours, you know, I you know, I'm not saying I'm drawn to tears, but I'm also very mad and mad because the people's lives who have been destroyed can be recovered, the people who are victims of crime. And I think that that's what we're about to go to now, because we're not talking about incarceration now, we need to also talk about the people who are actually victims because we're not spending the money in the right direction. Ama, correct, that's right. How do we fix that? Miss Andrewson? Well, you know, I mean a lot of people are not aware of how few victims of crime get help after getting hurt by violence, you know, and I talk about it in the book. You know, we passed in this country, we passed laws in every state for victim compensation programs and relocation assistance programs, and yet nine out of ten victims getting no help. They don't get at nine out of ten victims of violent crime in the US getting compensation, no relocation assistance, no accommodations at work or school. They faced extreme stress, you know, in response to what has happened. And despite the laws on the books, it's not translating to real help to victims. And that needs to be uncovered. That story of how few victims get help needs to be told because right in there is also a set of solutions around public safety. If we could help survivors heal from trauma and get stabilized, we would actually be stopping the cycle of crime at the same time. So as part of why we're so focused on helping alleviate the trauma that victims experience is because we're trying to heal communities. Right I'm speaking to Leanor Anderson our book In Their Names, The Untold Story of Victims, Rights, Mass and Conceration, and the future of public safety. You can buy this book today and underlyine chapter of against a paragraph he said. This book, which you wrote, argues that unearthing and resetting the relationship between victims of crime and the criminal justice system is required to replace masscarceration. Now, you know, the average person go, what's she talking about? Put these folks to jail and going about your business. So I'm sure you get that a lot. You know, I'm sure people look at you like, you know, she know, she's one of them, you know, do gooders. You know, she a dreamer, pipe dream people. You know, how do you overcome that? How do you come to skepticism? How do you come back? Because do you get four doors slamming your face? Probably than me, okay, because you try to do right and a lot of people don't care about doing right. They just want to vote, or they try to raise some taxes, they try to get home, and you're just trying to get the job done right. So you super dreamer, how do you overcome it? And how have you been able to win? Because you are winning too. Yeah, We've had a lot of success talking to people about the truth about what happens. You know, when you ask most voters. You know, first of all, we all want public safety. That is something that's a value we all hold dear. The question is how to get there. And when you ask voters, which do you think is more effective for public safety, right, incarcerating our way to safety, arresting our way to safety, or building strong communities, voters across the political spectrum are going to say building strong communities. Well, if that's what we all know intuitively, right, that you actually have to invest in crime prevention and rehabilitation and crisis assistance, then why are we not doing that? And we're not doing it because there's this myth, and it's the myth that you just laid out that like, hey, let's just throw all these people in jail and then we'll be safe. Right, Well, that myth has failed up for forty years. That has been symbolism instead of real safety. Right. That's the sort of you know, want to feel good and look tough kind of politic that might get someone reelected, but it has never actually delivered real safety. You know, our country incurs rates more per capita than just about any other country in the nation. If that was the way to safety, we'd be the safest country on the planet. We put you in jail and we'll shoot you. We'll put you in jail and we'll shoot you. Okay, right to bear arms. And so that's where you trapped that well, and we got to ask ourselves what have we gotten for that? Right? What have we gotten in reality? You know, when you look at what our public money goes to, right, and when we say public money, that's our money, right, your money, my money. This is our money here in public systems. This is money that is chronically allowing crisis to become crime and then trying to arrest our way out of it. Why don't we start on the front end and really try and actually help people who are in crisis. We so we can prevent most of the crime and violence that's happening. It's not that mysterious why crime and violence happens. We just don't do a lot about it. And then we spend all the money on these broken, beloated systems, cool in their names. The untone story of victims rights, mass incarceration in the future of public safety safety, I'm speaking to Lenoor Anderson. What are your future goals? Lenor? You know, you know it's it's it's tied to passion, it's tied to changing people's lives, it's tied to changing people's point of view. Yeah, and you know, in twenty twenty, I want you just to get this out, you know, when George Floyd, because I want to make sure I get this out, because I think it had to have an impact on the whole justice system. You know, this whole country was March heavy, you know, defunded police, all these things were put out there, and then the Republican Party used that to say, that's why the country is a high crime rate is going up, that's why police officers are quitting on the job. I know I'm asking two questions, but first answer your question about the future goal and then we get back to this decond questions. Okay, Well, and they're and they're kind of related. You know, we live in a really exciting time. I mean, you know, most people, if you turned on the TV during the last election cycle, there was a real, you know, resurgence of this sort of tough on crime, law and order rhetoric. But it really didn't have an impact. You know, it didn't actually change a lot of voters opinions. I think voters are wiser today than they used to be on this issue of criminal justice, and that means there's exciting change happening. So what we're interested in is, you know, what are the real solutions, right If we if we can finally abandon this myth of mass incarceration as a pathway to safety, if we can start to accept that criminal justice reform and public safety actually go hand in hand, we and build some really great solutions. You know, there's these things called street outreach violence prevention workers right These are grassroots community members trained in conflict mediation that can help young people reduce gun violence on the streets. It's having a huge positive impact. There's trauma recovery centers which are helping underserved victims of crime get crisis assistance and get mental health support. These are the kinds of solutions that we're building across the country. And what's so exciting about the future is that more and more people are seeing the wisdom behind these solutions. That's really what excites me the most. That's what we're trying to build toward, and I think that I think we're at a point where we can start to have a much more honest conversation about partnering with community instead of surveilling community, partnering with community to build the kind of solution so we've been needing the whole time. Yeah, it's definitely a book that changed my life. And I say that I would say that casually because I think that when people say that in me, no, I'm not you know, I am who I am, I am my age, But your point of view can be changed through information. This book will be passed around to some other people who are a little bit bigger than me, and I will encourage them to interview you and encourage them to get the word out about your book. It's that big to me. Okay, it's such a great auntner and I appreciate it so much, and you know, we're just we're so blessed to have people like you in the role that you're playing and encouraging with the hope and the positivity. You know, it brings me great joy to being a conversation with someone who's such an inspiration to millions. So thank you so much. I appreciate you, and we talked soon, and I'm again I'm very sincere. In their names Down told a story of victim rights from asking Conceration and the Future of Public Safety. Very brilliant book. You should buy it for more police. Spread the word. Thank for coming on money to make a conversation with Illinois. Thank you. You've been listening to Money Making Conversations Masterclass with Rushan McDonald. Always remember to lead with your gifts. Money Making Conversations Masterclass is a presentation of thirty eight fifteen Media Incorporated. Historically, black colleges and universities have always helped Black Americans pursue professional careers, earn graduate degrees, and advance their education. HBCUs meet the needs of low income first generation students. Iron sharpens iron. Historical Black colleges and universities sharpen your future. You want to talk about excellence, talk about HBCUs. Talk about being the first Black man to have a seat on the Supreme Court. Talk about managing over thirty billion dollars in engineering and architectural design programs. Talk about being the first black woman billionaire. Talk about having ten number one box off movies in a row. You graduate from an HBCU, you influence politics, medicine, entertainment. HBCUs represent Black excellence. If you attend or are an alumnus of an HBCU, We want to hear about your story. The My HBCU Story Digital Library will allow current HBCU students an alumni to share their stories. Registration is open to everyone. More information is available at HBCU college date dot com. Click my HBCU Story. Next, you can upload a photo. The photo can be recent or from when you attended your HBCU. Then share your academic or social experience at your HBCU and how attending an HBCU changed your life. We also want to hear stories if you pledge a fraternity or sorority. The goal is to use your my HBCU story to promote an uplift the HBCU brand. Your HBCU prepared you for success, and now we want everyone to read about your black excellent. More information is available at HBCU college day dot com. You can click my HBCU Story to share your story. At Thirdgod Marshall College Fund. We believe where you're born shouldn't decide who you become. That's why we carry forth the legacy of Justice Thurgood Marshall, providing an HBCU and PBR students with access and opportunity through scholarship, talent sourcing, upskilling programs, capacity building, and advocacy. The third Good Marshall College Fund is committed to changing the world, one leader at a time. Who's Next Learn more Who's Next dot TMCF dot org. You are now tuned into the Moneymaking Conversations Minute of Inspiration with Rashaan McDonald. Hi, I'm Rashan McDonald for Moneymaking Conversation masterclass with your daily Minute of Inspiration. My guest today is actor, educator, activist, and entrepreneur Lamon Rucker. He addresses how being authentic can benefit and lead the youth of today. It's your value at your understanding of your responsibility to serve, you know, to serve young people's. You and I serve one another. We love and support and encourage and empower and uplift each other. The branding is completely secondary. I believe if you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, if you're being who you're supposed to be, if you're walking and living and your love and your life on a regular basis, your brand will be shaped around you, not you having to try to be something you're not, just because so I do my best to work from the inside out, not the outside is. Listen to this full interview with Lamar Rutger. It's available on Moneymaking Conversations dot com. You can stay up to date with all new and exclusive money Making Conversations Masterclass interviews by liking and following on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, I Heart Radio, or Audible