This podcast is a dramatization of fictionalized events that contains culturally insensitive language and violence. I have an uncle that I've never met. His name was Aaron, and he died in an awful car accident at the young age of sixteen, when a drunk driver plowed into his Mustang on Pacific Coast Highway, just less than a mile and a half from the home where my grandparents. His parents lived to this day. The drunk driver walked away with a few minor cuts and scrapes, and he also escaped our judicial system with nothing more than probation, a fine, and community service. The last time I visited my grandmother, or my bubby as I call her, we were sitting in her kitchenette, and I could sense that she was in a rare, reflective mood. So I asked her about Uncle Aaron and what it was like losing her son. So suddenly she stared blankly in my direction, as if I was no longer in the room, almost as if she couldn't see me. And then she touched her wrinkled but sturdy hand to her temple and said to me softly, Kate, I think I heard the sound of my brain crack inside my head when I think of Gerald inside Jason's forty two sports bar and Grill coming to terms with the fact that Niles was dead. I can't help but wonder did Gerald hear his spring cracked two just like my bubbies? As the medics stepped out the front door in the police department, swat team swept him away from the building. Here's what we do for sure what was happening inside the bar. Gerald, with his assault rifle still strapped over his shoulder, draws the handgun from his waistband and walks decisively over to Sergeant Place and presses the barrel hard against the officer's forehead. Gerald fires off three successive shots just inches above Sergeant places head. Oh my good man. Let me let me just tell you something about the bullets. Okay, they ripped into the kitchen towel, and then they exploded into these like little white clouds. Like literally, I can see these little white clouds. Check this out. You see this right here, m I still have tiny shots stuck underneath my skin. This is the voice of Martin Sims. He pulls back his long sleeve shirt and shows me this gnarly constellation of scars running up his forearm. Jesus, that must have hurt. Man, sh it still hurts, really? Oh yeah, every time something brushes up against it feels like I'm being poked by a thousand little pieces of glass. So where you relieved when you're real is Jerald was shooting into the wall? That was was they relieved? I mean, sure, I was glad he didn't kill a man, but his shooting to the wall was no small thing. And at that point, I'm thinking to myself, what if Jase's right? What if this cop is our only means of protection? Like Gerald, busting off warning shots isn't going to put anyone at ease. So look, if anything, that was the moment I knew I better wise up. How So, it just became clear to me that if I was going to make it out of their live, I could not sit back and wait for some crazy man to do the right thing. So I started applot on how to get myself out of the situation, and my best chance of doing that was I needed to flip Chase Well Martin was gaining clarity on what he should do next. The hostage negotiation team debated with their next move should be Commander Ammon's accounts, when I heard the shots ring out again, my first instinct was to make sure we stood down okay. I quickly got confirmation from Captain Flora's that the weapons discharge came from inside the building. My next priority was to get home or talking to the HTS again and figure out exactly what the hell was going on in there. In the security cam we see Gerald leave the kitchen and go all the way over to the dining room. This is pivotal because he doesn't have line of sight, nor is he an earshot of everybody else still in the kitchen, So here he is about as far away as he possibly could be. Martin recalls, but what was scary about that was it was my real first opportunity to try to make a break for it, try and escape. And he was right, because not only were they separated by distance, Gerald at this point in time seemed just sort of out of it. For a couple of minutes. There's footage of Gerald with his hands bawled up and fist clasped to his head, and he's rocking back and forth making a weird, anguished sound. In the background, we can hear the throw line phone ringing incessantly as Homer and the rest of the command trailer eagerly attempt to re establish contact by observing Gerald in the security feed. The phone ring doesn't even register with him as he continues to rock back and forth and what I'm sure was an unconscious attempt to self soothe. And even though I've been able to watch and rewatch this physical manifestation of his grief, It's still hard to fathom how unimaginably painful and frankly out of body these moments must have been for him. Just keep in mind, he's in the same room where he and Niles had just done renovations. I'd be willing to bet that the molding they worked on earlier hadn't even completely dried, and yet in that short amount of time, so much had changed Forever. From the looks of it, Gerald's grief written spell could have gone on for a very long time, but it was cut short by biology like a spring. We see Gerald stand up and dart across the room, where he vomits into a paint bucket. Yeah, I mean, I clearly remember hearing it throw up. This may sound a little elis, but that's when I knew I should make a move. Listen to this conversation between Martin and Jason. Hey, hey, Jason, listen, all right, you gotta pick that cop. Just listen, just just like you did outside, I'm a help car. We gotta hustle to that door, and then we gotta try to make it out of Man, I'm not gonna grab some fucking cop. Half did and go out in front of both the cops with them shoot guns and just went out there with the As for the metic didn't shooting. That was before he saw popping shots off again. They say the cops don't shoot. Huh, who's this stop Jerey from shooting us on the way out? You really thing he shoot you? I mean, aren't you gospoll to see boys or some ship? Mar ook? Kay? Man, I think I'll probably the best friend. Ye wait, yeah he shoot. Listen. Well, Martin and Jay's argued the pros and cons of making a quick escape. Gerald, still in the dining room, can be seen gathering himself after literally purging his guts out, but as he comes up from that bucket, there's something about his posture worth noting he seems renewed. Focused. Moments later, Gerald leaves the selvm post exile in the dining room and rejoins everyone else in the kitchen. So he came straight at me, and I'm thinking to myself, oh shit, like I'm in trouble. Martin recounts, you know, because I figured he heard me trying to get Jason to make a break forward. Instead, he says, what give me your phone? What're you gonna do with you? Got say that? Oh? So Gerald takes my phone and he holds it in front of the sergeant place, like right in front of his face. The cops like no, no, He's like trying to turn away, and then Gerald grabs his chin and he makes him watch it. And then Gerald walks out, and I mean, we had no idea what he was playing on. Next, Gerald retreats back to the dining room area, where he can be seen fiddling with both his phone and Martin's phone when Gerald receives a notification that sets in motion a chain of historical events. It was a prompt from the increasingly popular social media app polycam. What might the message on Gerald's phone have said? I can tell you exactly what it said, because it's always the same. That's Philibko. The twenty year old chairman, CEO and founder of Polycamp. First, it's addressed to the user name, in this case Gerald O. G. Then it says, welcome to polycamp. Open the app now to post or stream your first video? And is there anything special about that notification? Nope, totally ordinary. But Gerald was no ordinary user, was he? Uh? He was not? And he posted a video? Well yes, technically his first video was a live stream, which he then archived as a video post. Was there anything special about it? His post slash live stream. I don't think we'd be having this conversation if it wasn't special. Immediately after completing the polycam sign up process, Gerald finally answers the incoming call from the hostage negotiation team. Listen to this exchange. Hello, go to this link in for a minute. I need a pen. Does somebody get me a pen? Okay, I'm ready polycam dot com for which slash s f J O w J. Did he hang up again? He's off picture? So what was your impression when you first saw your old post or a link? At first? I wasn't quite sure what I was looking at. The police had pushed the media back another thirty yards, so to the naked eye. It was difficult to even make out what was happening. This is the voice of local TV newsfield reporter Colleen Sanders. But I knew it had to be something because for hours we couldn't see into that bar at all, and then all of a sudden, there was this perfect three ft by three ft square of window pane looking right inside the building at about stomach II. So I look over to my cameraman who was He was playing that annoyingly popular phone game at the time. What was it called? It begins with a b bow dash. Anyway, He's not seeing what I'm seeing at all, So to get his attention, I literally threw the cap of my band at him and I got him right on the notes. Anyway, he looks up and I kind of give him the start rolling hand motion. And why were you used so incognito about it? There were four other stations on site and all of them were watching Paint Drive just like me and my team. So you wanted to ski? Well? Yeah, So anyway, my cameraman zooms in and we see someone taping this handwritten sign up in that perfectly shaped three foot square space in the window, and then they fold the construction paper back behind the sign, which again negates our ability to see into the bar. But but what there was a message that simply read go here in five minutes, and it had the U r L written underneath. What did you think of it? I didn't know if it was going to be something big or if we were going to go back to sitting on our hands and blame bow Dash on our phones. But it turned out to be what kate off the charts big, like once in a lifetime big. I mentioned before the problem with this case is that we were constantly on our heels and having to play catchup. Commander Ammond's reflects, and that's okay, it's our job to play catch up. But so many things that transpired were, frankly, things we had never trained for, simply because they had never happened. Keep in mind, we're still on our heels after hearing gunfire from inside the building. Then we get hit with this link from the lead h T and who knows where that's headed. Plus Hobbs informs me that we now have our second reported fatality of the evening, as confirmed by the medic. And then I find out that the press has picked up on the link and is now broadcasting and all over the news. Sorry, Kate, I have to call bullshit on that. We never showed the U r L on our station. Come on, I'm legal, wouldn't have allowed us to do that even if we wanted to. Every time we cut to Gerald handwritten signed the link was blurred out. My team and I have checked all the broadcast footage coming from Colleen's network. She is correct, none of it showed the actual poly chimu are l. But there's definitely coverage where the lower third titles say in bold letters, kidnapper Gerald Hayes to make announcement on social media app. So Commander MS does have a point, and that the news media certainly helped amplify exposure of Gerald's link. So why do you think so many people believe that you and your station are responsible for getting Generald's link out there? Look, me and my team we broke that story and we are proud of that. And because we broke the story, I think a lot of people conflate that with us being responsible for Gerald's link going viral or trending or whatever. But that wasn't us. That was someone else or some online organization, Regardless of how you look at it. The reality on the ground for law enforcement was that it added attention to the links existence, which just raised the temperature on a situation that was already white hot. Back in the trailer, Captain Flores was adamant and very animated in his opinion that we should take the building immediately because he felt the ht S were operating more like terrorists than kidnappers. Okay, I thought that was a bit extreme, but given Florida's military background in Afghanistan, I understood how he could get and his thinking. Did you consider sending Swaddon as he suggested? No, I still thought that was prettymature, And for once, Homer and Patterson were united in their assessment and both insisted that we still had options that did not require force. You know, negotiators are always going to agree to negotiate. Detective Patterson gives his take. I generally disagree with homer style, but I take his outdated methods of the time over the spray and pray approach that Captain Floor as in some of his tactical guys were suggesting. But mostly, if you want my opinion, I think the debate in the trailer at that time was really more about everyone venting nervous, pent up energy, you know, and intense, high stakes situations like this. The reality is that sometimes you just need to wait to see what comes next. And that's exactly what we ended up doing. Well, everyone outside the bar waited for the link to go live. Gerald was still making preparations for his big move. Martin grab one of those cheers and willed that cop into the dining room. Get that tape off his mouth. What if he starts yelling to the concert sidneys? Do we just just no, I'm not responsible? All right, come on, let's get you into this chair. Well, Martin attends the sergeant place. Gerald, already back in the dining room can be seen sort of talking to himself. Unfortunately, no matter how many times I poured over the footage and the surveillance videos, I couldn't hear what Gerald was muttering during these pivotal moments. But then I caught a break. Hello, Okay, Yes, needless to say, I had jitters leading up to my second meeting with Jace. I knew if I lost him this time, I wasn't going to get a third opportunity. I met j said his Silver Living residents, I don't know if he was choosing to stay closer to a support network or if he like I thought a change of venue would be a good idea for this go around. We sat in this nice little outdoor courtyard where patients could take visitors and get some sunshine. But mostly I feel like it was just a really big smoking area. There were used ash trays on every table, and when Jay's asked me if I minded if he smoked, I answered, of course not, even though truth be told, if I had one pet peeve its cigarette smoke. Needless to say, I wasn't going to let my idiosyncrasies deter us from getting off on the right foot. You spent a lot of time out here the smoke, mostly at this vape, which I could do in my room. But my blood tender friend gave me this flower itself, so you know. Oh wait, wait, my bad, my bad, you want this? I'm retired, Okay, okay, anyway, we got two big rules in the sleeping quarters here, no visitors and no smoking anything. Never quiz by. I will say this something about Jason's mood. His demeanor was so much more easy going this time, and it wasn't just the weed. Even before he started smoking. He just seemed to be in a much better headspace. So I was super mindful of what I said and how I said it as we got to talking. I started with small talk before I finally worked my way around to asking him about the moments leading up to Gerald's link going live. But eventually I got there, and to his credit, Jason was very open. It was strange. You know. At the time, it didn't make much sense or I didn't really think much of it, But looking back at it now, I think I know what he meant. The strange moment he's referring to is when Gerald was in the dining room sort of talking to himself, the part I couldn't hear in the surveillance video right before he had me and Martin we all Sergeant Placey j Old was standing in the middle of the dining room, and it was almost like he was talking to a ghost. He said, Yeah, this could work, Niles. You built that wall too, So I called out to him a couple of times to get his attention. When he finally turned to me, he had this wide look in his eyes, like somebody waking up from a nightmare. I think, you know, I haven't just lost Niles. This might sound weird or whatever. No, no, no, no, go on. Look, I don't have proof of this, and I never asked Je, but I think he felt like now spirit was guying him, you know, like he was just making himself available to the spirit that was moving him. That makes sense, Yeah, like yeah, yeah, like that. So the link goes live, Yes, And what were your initial thoughts? Well, for a second there, it wasn't readily apparent to me what I was looking at, because when the live stream first started, there was this weird layer right in the middle of the video, and it made it difficult to get a grasp on what all I was seeing. This is the voice of Colleen Sanders, again recapping her experience watching Gerald's feed as it went live. The confusion she's referring to is that Gerald started the live feed filming footage of Sergeant Place and Officer Web beating Niles. But he adjusted the shot pretty quickly and then you could see and it was like, oh, oh, you knew exactly what this was, and I, oh, it's just so violent myself. Unfortunately, we've seen so many variations of this type of thing, from from the police shootings to the no knock warrants to the rough rides, and of course the choke holds, but this one was striking because of the sheer brutality of it all. And I don't know, I mean, oh, it's disgusting even hearing myself compare the awfulness of all these horrible occurrences. But but the way they attacked Niles, it literally made me sick. It was just barbaric. It was inhuman and an insult to injury. I knew right then that my reporting up until that point was wrong. So obviously we had no idea what was going to be on the link Commander Ammon's recounts. And as I'm watching the video, initially, I'm thinking to myself, this is a bad look for the officers involved, the department as a whole, and it directly undermined a lot of the positive messaging that we've been trying to put out since Rodney King. Right, I'm also thinking this is familiar territory. We've done with this type of controversy before. So from a management perspective, as I'm looking at part one of the live stream, my assessment was we can handle this, and what about part two of the video. We were totally unprepared for that. After the live links showed footage of the incident, Gerald flips the camera into sealthy mode and we moved from familiar ground to totally uncharted territory. Gerald's face fills the screen as he delivers the following message, Hello, my name is Gerald Hayes. Earlier today, my son Nows was being severity by two members of the police department. During the attack. I came to my son's a hate as you would expect to hope any fall that would do to protect his child. The video to Jock, I saw that's the real version of what happened. There was a new car jacking or anything illegal about what Niles was doing when he got pulled over. Those reports is false. He was dropping my friend's car, Chase Shure, and he had Chase's permission to do so. So these low stations out there, please stop with the lies. With the video you just watched. Does not show is that my son Niles, he just died about an hour ago from the injuries that he took in the police attack. Now, it was a good kid. He was sweet, he's kind, he's thoughtful, he's crazy smart, and he had a real future ahead of him, and he did not deserve to go out like this. So I'm I'm thinking to myself, how many times have we seen this shall and then there's no trial or no confiction, no justice. And then if by some miracle we do get some accountability, it still ain't gonna be enough to bring my boy back. It ain't gonna stop the next clown, motherfucking Costing doing the same fum a ship all over and over again. So now I ain't gonna let this ship keep happening. We we gotta do something different, and I need y'all help. So we're gonna hold trial right here, right now. Gerald turns the camera into landscape you, and now we see Sergeant Place in the frame as well. The two of them are seated on the same stage Gerald was building earlier in the day. Sergeant Place, how do you plead in the murder of nowadays? What you can't do this? This isn't right when you're killing my son wasn't right. How do you please? I'm not I'm not doing this man. I'm giving you a chance, which is more than you gave my boy. So if you don't want to take it, then find the video evidence will speak for you and your punk as partner. What you're saying, I mean innocent? Then who's responsible for my son's death? Was it your partner that you shot and killed? Oh no, I see, no, you go You're gonna lay all the blame on him. So okay, so you're gonna own up to what you did. You are what you are, You are responsible? I am. Do you need to see the video again because it's playing this day that you and your partner's vicious, unwarted and unlawful attack on Now is what times when you're doing a suspect and their resisting arrest, police officers are required to use force, sometimes a lot of force to gain compliance. Your son was belligerent, he was combative, and he was resisting. So when his hands were on the steering wheel and you were punching him in the face, he was resisting. Then yes, What about when your partner smashed through the window and dragged them out into the street like the dog? He was resisting there too, I guess yes. I got the funk out of here with this. Birected the suspect to get out of the car multiple times, and he refused. He refused, So me and my partner lawfully moved in to make him complain. You pulled in and then you beat him to That's not what killed him, So don't believe a lie in ays that that should defict. What killed him was your refusal to get him care after you unlawfully assaulted not one but two police officers and seized control of the scene. And because you put right now as well being, you were responsible. I asked for goddamn police over an hour to send a fucking doctor, and they dragged their feet. Maybe, but all you had to do was opened that door and surrender, and your son would have been on his way to the hospital. Bullshit. I wasn't gonna let another cop mer now until I saw that he got the help that he needed. How many times have we saw when you got to fund somebody up, beat him up, taste them up, shoot him up, and you do nothing that they deaf but they laugh brow You think I was gonna let that ship happen, Well, that's the call you made, but obviously it was the wrong one and now you have to live with that. But if I were in your shoes, I would have laid down my arms so my son could have got the help he needs. Man, you really trying to put their ship on me. I don't know what's wrong with you people. Let me ask you a question. You're a gang banger, right, convicted felon? How many times you gonna you ain't got nothing to do with this? Doesn't it? How many times your in probation? Now you think I don't know what each and every one of those gang tats on your arms means. Let's face it, Gerald, there's no way that you're not the bad guy here. Just be honest for the people out there. Tell him about yourself, tell them who you really are. You're not just some innocent father that caught a bad break, are you? O? Relea Souls? Despite what the people seen in that video, what I've seen with my own two eyes, your defenses that Now's death had nothing to do with your inhumane prejudice, assault on his rights and on his body. Now's with for an errand man to pick up basketball tickets and he ended up dead. Treybond Martin went to a fucking liquor store for some fucking skittles and ended up dead. How can you defend that? I can't speak to that other situation all I'm saying is if you had not started the shooting, I started shooting? Yes, yes, will You assaulted two police officers carrying out their duties. What you broke the law? The reason we pulled your son over in the first place was because he was driving erratically. He broke the law. You and him both set off a chain reaction of unlawful events that resulted in gunfire. If it wasn't for you, no one would be dead right now, are you talking to? My partner would still be alive, and after the suspect was apprehended, we would have put him in custody and gotten in the medical care that he needs. Once you intervened, everything went to ship. Your mistakes, your unlawful behavior was fatal. Had I not intervened. How many more blows would my son have had to take before you were done? Quote unquote subduing him huh? Knocking his teeth thought wasn't enough? Breaking his neck wasn't enough. How many times did you and your partner strike? Now? Oh you don't know that either, do you? And then then you say that I started this ship when you struck my son first, You took the first shot and the second shot it's in the video, man, it's in the video. Officer of the law. I have the right to protect myself and so did my partner. And once you started beating my son, I had the god given right as a father to protect them. Your motherfucker's declare war on our sons, our daughters, are brothers, are sisters, our mother us, our fathers, our fathers before fathers. And the only justification for your actions is that to the police, well fuck that. This should ain't gonna fly no more. I'm fed up, we all fed up. As a father, as a father, you made a dangerous situation even more dangerous because of that. You are to blame. You've convinced yourself that you are the victim here. You're not. You're trying to get sympathy from other people. The truth is you don't deserve it. You are nothing more than a common thug. And I think the people out there should know exactly what type of thug is puppeteering this puppeteering this force. Because you've been in control of the situation the entire time. On your watch, a compass died. Your son has died. I'll probably plead to death myself while you singulartedly try and kill our criminal. Justice was killing you because if you as because of your refusal to surrender, did you let your shore he die on that boy for you like you're fucking as you're fucking liar. In the video, we see Gerald strike Sergeant Place in the face, so handcuffed, the cop loses his balance and falls out of his chair. Joe flips the phone back in the selfie mode, his face filling the screen. The time is seven pm. Voting stars now and ends midnight. Vote up for innocent, vote down for guilty. If the people say he innocent, I'll let Sergeant Place walk. You declare him guilty, I'm gonna kill him. We go live again at eleven pm. Thirty minute before voting closes, The world responds to Gerald's trial Next Time I Got Him hashtag matter, starring Amen Joseph as Gerald Hayes, Jennifer Christopher as Kate Bell, Steve Harris as Jason Shaw Hayley, Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place, Pooch Hall as Martin Simms, and Snoop Dogg as Big H. Additional performances by Nile Bullock as Nile's Hayes Serena Pouncey as Michelle Hayes, Monte Russell as Detective Patterson, and Alex Vaughan as Darrell Hanover. Hashtag Matter was written and directed by Dylan C. Brown. Our executive producers are Sandy Bailey, Lauren Holman, Dylan Brown, Winnie Kemp, and Aymon Joseph. Audio designed by Wolf at the Door, Sound design and mix by Josh Falcon, music by Jonathan Sandford, edited by Darren Bowling, and our sound director is Alexander Kemp. Produced by Toby Lawless and Lucy Jones. Casting by Lawless Casting. Hashtag Matter is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio and an association with Wolf at the Door. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

This podcast is a dramatization of fictionalized events that contains culturally insensitive language and violence. I have an uncle that I've never met. His name was Aaron, and he died in an awful car accident at the young age of sixteen, when a drunk driver plowed into his Mustang on Pacific Coast Highway, just less than a mile and a half from the home where my grandparents. His parents lived to this day. The drunk driver walked away with a few minor cuts and scrapes, and he also escaped our judicial system with nothing more than probation, a fine, and community service. The last time I visited my grandmother, or my bubby as I call her, we were sitting in her kitchenette, and I could sense that she was in a rare, reflective mood. So I asked her about Uncle Aaron and what it was like losing her son. So suddenly she stared blankly in my direction, as if I was no longer in the room, almost as if she couldn't see me. And then she touched her wrinkled but sturdy hand to her temple and said to me softly, Kate, I think I heard the sound of my brain crack inside my head when I think of Gerald inside Jason's forty two sports bar and Grill coming to terms with the fact that Niles was dead. I can't help but wonder did Gerald hear his spring cracked two just like my bubbies? As the medics stepped out the front door in the police department, swat team swept him away from the building. Here's what we do for sure what was happening inside the bar. Gerald, with his assault rifle still strapped over his shoulder, draws the handgun from his waistband and walks decisively over to Sergeant Place and presses the barrel hard against the officer's forehead. Gerald fires off three successive shots just inches above Sergeant places head. Oh my good man. Let me let me just tell you something about the bullets. Okay, they ripped into the kitchen towel, and then they exploded into these like little white clouds. Like literally, I can see these little white clouds. Check this out. You see this right here, m I still have tiny shots stuck underneath my skin. This is the voice of Martin Sims. He pulls back his long sleeve shirt and shows me this gnarly constellation of scars running up his forearm. Jesus, that must have hurt. Man, sh it still hurts, really? Oh yeah, every time something brushes up against it feels like I'm being poked by a thousand little pieces of glass. So where you relieved when you're real is Jerald was shooting into the wall? That was was they relieved? I mean, sure, I was glad he didn't kill a man, but his shooting to the wall was no small thing. And at that point, I'm thinking to myself, what if Jase's right? What if this cop is our only means of protection? Like Gerald, busting off warning shots isn't going to put anyone at ease. So look, if anything, that was the moment I knew I better wise up. How So, it just became clear to me that if I was going to make it out of their live, I could not sit back and wait for some crazy man to do the right thing. So I started applot on how to get myself out of the situation, and my best chance of doing that was I needed to flip Chase Well Martin was gaining clarity on what he should do next. The hostage negotiation team debated with their next move should be Commander Ammon's accounts, when I heard the shots ring out again, my first instinct was to make sure we stood down okay. I quickly got confirmation from Captain Flora's that the weapons discharge came from inside the building. My next priority was to get home or talking to the HTS again and figure out exactly what the hell was going on in there. In the security cam we see Gerald leave the kitchen and go all the way over to the dining room. This is pivotal because he doesn't have line of sight, nor is he an earshot of everybody else still in the kitchen, So here he is about as far away as he possibly could be. Martin recalls, but what was scary about that was it was my real first opportunity to try to make a break for it, try and escape. And he was right, because not only were they separated by distance, Gerald at this point in time seemed just sort of out of it. For a couple of minutes. There's footage of Gerald with his hands bawled up and fist clasped to his head, and he's rocking back and forth making a weird, anguished sound. In the background, we can hear the throw line phone ringing incessantly as Homer and the rest of the command trailer eagerly attempt to re establish contact by observing Gerald in the security feed. The phone ring doesn't even register with him as he continues to rock back and forth and what I'm sure was an unconscious attempt to self soothe. And even though I've been able to watch and rewatch this physical manifestation of his grief, It's still hard to fathom how unimaginably painful and frankly out of body these moments must have been for him. Just keep in mind, he's in the same room where he and Niles had just done renovations. I'd be willing to bet that the molding they worked on earlier hadn't even completely dried, and yet in that short amount of time, so much had changed Forever. From the looks of it, Gerald's grief written spell could have gone on for a very long time, but it was cut short by biology like a spring. We see Gerald stand up and dart across the room, where he vomits into a paint bucket. Yeah, I mean, I clearly remember hearing it throw up. This may sound a little elis, but that's when I knew I should make a move. Listen to this conversation between Martin and Jason. Hey, hey, Jason, listen, all right, you gotta pick that cop. Just listen, just just like you did outside, I'm a help car. We gotta hustle to that door, and then we gotta try to make it out of Man, I'm not gonna grab some fucking cop. Half did and go out in front of both the cops with them shoot guns and just went out there with the As for the metic didn't shooting. That was before he saw popping shots off again. They say the cops don't shoot. Huh, who's this stop Jerey from shooting us on the way out? You really thing he shoot you? I mean, aren't you gospoll to see boys or some ship? Mar ook? Kay? Man, I think I'll probably the best friend. Ye wait, yeah he shoot. Listen. Well, Martin and Jay's argued the pros and cons of making a quick escape. Gerald, still in the dining room, can be seen gathering himself after literally purging his guts out, but as he comes up from that bucket, there's something about his posture worth noting he seems renewed. Focused. Moments later, Gerald leaves the selvm post exile in the dining room and rejoins everyone else in the kitchen. So he came straight at me, and I'm thinking to myself, oh shit, like I'm in trouble. Martin recounts, you know, because I figured he heard me trying to get Jason to make a break forward. Instead, he says, what give me your phone? What're you gonna do with you? Got say that? Oh? So Gerald takes my phone and he holds it in front of the sergeant place, like right in front of his face. The cops like no, no, He's like trying to turn away, and then Gerald grabs his chin and he makes him watch it. And then Gerald walks out, and I mean, we had no idea what he was playing on. Next, Gerald retreats back to the dining room area, where he can be seen fiddling with both his phone and Martin's phone when Gerald receives a notification that sets in motion a chain of historical events. It was a prompt from the increasingly popular social media app polycam. What might the message on Gerald's phone have said? I can tell you exactly what it said, because it's always the same. That's Philibko. The twenty year old chairman, CEO and founder of Polycamp. First, it's addressed to the user name, in this case Gerald O. G. Then it says, welcome to polycamp. Open the app now to post or stream your first video? And is there anything special about that notification? Nope, totally ordinary. But Gerald was no ordinary user, was he? Uh? He was not? And he posted a video? Well yes, technically his first video was a live stream, which he then archived as a video post. Was there anything special about it? His post slash live stream. I don't think we'd be having this conversation if it wasn't special. Immediately after completing the polycam sign up process, Gerald finally answers the incoming call from the hostage negotiation team. Listen to this exchange. Hello, go to this link in for a minute. I need a pen. Does somebody get me a pen? Okay, I'm ready polycam dot com for which slash s f J O w J. Did he hang up again? He's off picture? So what was your impression when you first saw your old post or a link? At first? I wasn't quite sure what I was looking at. The police had pushed the media back another thirty yards, so to the naked eye. It was difficult to even make out what was happening. This is the voice of local TV newsfield reporter Colleen Sanders. But I knew it had to be something because for hours we couldn't see into that bar at all, and then all of a sudden, there was this perfect three ft by three ft square of window pane looking right inside the building at about stomach II. So I look over to my cameraman who was He was playing that annoyingly popular phone game at the time. What was it called? It begins with a b bow dash. Anyway, He's not seeing what I'm seeing at all, So to get his attention, I literally threw the cap of my band at him and I got him right on the notes. Anyway, he looks up and I kind of give him the start rolling hand motion. And why were you used so incognito about it? There were four other stations on site and all of them were watching Paint Drive just like me and my team. So you wanted to ski? Well? Yeah, So anyway, my cameraman zooms in and we see someone taping this handwritten sign up in that perfectly shaped three foot square space in the window, and then they fold the construction paper back behind the sign, which again negates our ability to see into the bar. But but what there was a message that simply read go here in five minutes, and it had the U r L written underneath. What did you think of it? I didn't know if it was going to be something big or if we were going to go back to sitting on our hands and blame bow Dash on our phones. But it turned out to be what kate off the charts big, like once in a lifetime big. I mentioned before the problem with this case is that we were constantly on our heels and having to play catchup. Commander Ammond's reflects, and that's okay, it's our job to play catch up. But so many things that transpired were, frankly, things we had never trained for, simply because they had never happened. Keep in mind, we're still on our heels after hearing gunfire from inside the building. Then we get hit with this link from the lead h T and who knows where that's headed. Plus Hobbs informs me that we now have our second reported fatality of the evening, as confirmed by the medic. And then I find out that the press has picked up on the link and is now broadcasting and all over the news. Sorry, Kate, I have to call bullshit on that. We never showed the U r L on our station. Come on, I'm legal, wouldn't have allowed us to do that even if we wanted to. Every time we cut to Gerald handwritten signed the link was blurred out. My team and I have checked all the broadcast footage coming from Colleen's network. She is correct, none of it showed the actual poly chimu are l. But there's definitely coverage where the lower third titles say in bold letters, kidnapper Gerald Hayes to make announcement on social media app. So Commander MS does have a point, and that the news media certainly helped amplify exposure of Gerald's link. So why do you think so many people believe that you and your station are responsible for getting Generald's link out there? Look, me and my team we broke that story and we are proud of that. And because we broke the story, I think a lot of people conflate that with us being responsible for Gerald's link going viral or trending or whatever. But that wasn't us. That was someone else or some online organization, Regardless of how you look at it. The reality on the ground for law enforcement was that it added attention to the links existence, which just raised the temperature on a situation that was already white hot. Back in the trailer, Captain Flores was adamant and very animated in his opinion that we should take the building immediately because he felt the ht S were operating more like terrorists than kidnappers. Okay, I thought that was a bit extreme, but given Florida's military background in Afghanistan, I understood how he could get and his thinking. Did you consider sending Swaddon as he suggested? No, I still thought that was prettymature, And for once, Homer and Patterson were united in their assessment and both insisted that we still had options that did not require force. You know, negotiators are always going to agree to negotiate. Detective Patterson gives his take. I generally disagree with homer style, but I take his outdated methods of the time over the spray and pray approach that Captain Floor as in some of his tactical guys were suggesting. But mostly, if you want my opinion, I think the debate in the trailer at that time was really more about everyone venting nervous, pent up energy, you know, and intense, high stakes situations like this. The reality is that sometimes you just need to wait to see what comes next. And that's exactly what we ended up doing. Well, everyone outside the bar waited for the link to go live. Gerald was still making preparations for his big move. Martin grab one of those cheers and willed that cop into the dining room. Get that tape off his mouth. What if he starts yelling to the concert sidneys? Do we just just no, I'm not responsible? All right, come on, let's get you into this chair. Well, Martin attends the sergeant place. Gerald, already back in the dining room can be seen sort of talking to himself. Unfortunately, no matter how many times I poured over the footage and the surveillance videos, I couldn't hear what Gerald was muttering during these pivotal moments. But then I caught a break. Hello, Okay, Yes, needless to say, I had jitters leading up to my second meeting with Jace. I knew if I lost him this time, I wasn't going to get a third opportunity. I met j said his Silver Living residents, I don't know if he was choosing to stay closer to a support network or if he like I thought a change of venue would be a good idea for this go around. We sat in this nice little outdoor courtyard where patients could take visitors and get some sunshine. But mostly I feel like it was just a really big smoking area. There were used ash trays on every table, and when Jay's asked me if I minded if he smoked, I answered, of course not, even though truth be told, if I had one pet peeve its cigarette smoke. Needless to say, I wasn't going to let my idiosyncrasies deter us from getting off on the right foot. You spent a lot of time out here the smoke, mostly at this vape, which I could do in my room. But my blood tender friend gave me this flower itself, so you know. Oh wait, wait, my bad, my bad, you want this? I'm retired, Okay, okay, anyway, we got two big rules in the sleeping quarters here, no visitors and no smoking anything. Never quiz by. I will say this something about Jason's mood. His demeanor was so much more easy going this time, and it wasn't just the weed. Even before he started smoking. He just seemed to be in a much better headspace. So I was super mindful of what I said and how I said it as we got to talking. I started with small talk before I finally worked my way around to asking him about the moments leading up to Gerald's link going live. But eventually I got there, and to his credit, Jason was very open. It was strange. You know. At the time, it didn't make much sense or I didn't really think much of it, But looking back at it now, I think I know what he meant. The strange moment he's referring to is when Gerald was in the dining room sort of talking to himself, the part I couldn't hear in the surveillance video right before he had me and Martin we all Sergeant Placey j Old was standing in the middle of the dining room, and it was almost like he was talking to a ghost. He said, Yeah, this could work, Niles. You built that wall too, So I called out to him a couple of times to get his attention. When he finally turned to me, he had this wide look in his eyes, like somebody waking up from a nightmare. I think, you know, I haven't just lost Niles. This might sound weird or whatever. No, no, no, no, go on. Look, I don't have proof of this, and I never asked Je, but I think he felt like now spirit was guying him, you know, like he was just making himself available to the spirit that was moving him. That makes sense, Yeah, like yeah, yeah, like that. So the link goes live, Yes, And what were your initial thoughts? Well, for a second there, it wasn't readily apparent to me what I was looking at, because when the live stream first started, there was this weird layer right in the middle of the video, and it made it difficult to get a grasp on what all I was seeing. This is the voice of Colleen Sanders, again recapping her experience watching Gerald's feed as it went live. The confusion she's referring to is that Gerald started the live feed filming footage of Sergeant Place and Officer Web beating Niles. But he adjusted the shot pretty quickly and then you could see and it was like, oh, oh, you knew exactly what this was, and I, oh, it's just so violent myself. Unfortunately, we've seen so many variations of this type of thing, from from the police shootings to the no knock warrants to the rough rides, and of course the choke holds, but this one was striking because of the sheer brutality of it all. And I don't know, I mean, oh, it's disgusting even hearing myself compare the awfulness of all these horrible occurrences. But but the way they attacked Niles, it literally made me sick. It was just barbaric. It was inhuman and an insult to injury. I knew right then that my reporting up until that point was wrong. So obviously we had no idea what was going to be on the link Commander Ammon's recounts. And as I'm watching the video, initially, I'm thinking to myself, this is a bad look for the officers involved, the department as a whole, and it directly undermined a lot of the positive messaging that we've been trying to put out since Rodney King. Right, I'm also thinking this is familiar territory. We've done with this type of controversy before. So from a management perspective, as I'm looking at part one of the live stream, my assessment was we can handle this, and what about part two of the video. We were totally unprepared for that. After the live links showed footage of the incident, Gerald flips the camera into sealthy mode and we moved from familiar ground to totally uncharted territory. Gerald's face fills the screen as he delivers the following message, Hello, my name is Gerald Hayes. Earlier today, my son Nows was being severity by two members of the police department. During the attack. I came to my son's a hate as you would expect to hope any fall that would do to protect his child. The video to Jock, I saw that's the real version of what happened. There was a new car jacking or anything illegal about what Niles was doing when he got pulled over. Those reports is false. He was dropping my friend's car, Chase Shure, and he had Chase's permission to do so. So these low stations out there, please stop with the lies. With the video you just watched. Does not show is that my son Niles, he just died about an hour ago from the injuries that he took in the police attack. Now, it was a good kid. He was sweet, he's kind, he's thoughtful, he's crazy smart, and he had a real future ahead of him, and he did not deserve to go out like this. So I'm I'm thinking to myself, how many times have we seen this shall and then there's no trial or no confiction, no justice. And then if by some miracle we do get some accountability, it still ain't gonna be enough to bring my boy back. It ain't gonna stop the next clown, motherfucking Costing doing the same fum a ship all over and over again. So now I ain't gonna let this ship keep happening. We we gotta do something different, and I need y'all help. So we're gonna hold trial right here, right now. Gerald turns the camera into landscape you, and now we see Sergeant Place in the frame as well. The two of them are seated on the same stage Gerald was building earlier in the day. Sergeant Place, how do you plead in the murder of nowadays? What you can't do this? This isn't right when you're killing my son wasn't right. How do you please? I'm not I'm not doing this man. I'm giving you a chance, which is more than you gave my boy. So if you don't want to take it, then find the video evidence will speak for you and your punk as partner. What you're saying, I mean innocent? Then who's responsible for my son's death? Was it your partner that you shot and killed? Oh no, I see, no, you go You're gonna lay all the blame on him. So okay, so you're gonna own up to what you did. You are what you are, You are responsible? I am. Do you need to see the video again because it's playing this day that you and your partner's vicious, unwarted and unlawful attack on Now is what times when you're doing a suspect and their resisting arrest, police officers are required to use force, sometimes a lot of force to gain compliance. Your son was belligerent, he was combative, and he was resisting. So when his hands were on the steering wheel and you were punching him in the face, he was resisting. Then yes, What about when your partner smashed through the window and dragged them out into the street like the dog? He was resisting there too, I guess yes. I got the funk out of here with this. Birected the suspect to get out of the car multiple times, and he refused. He refused, So me and my partner lawfully moved in to make him complain. You pulled in and then you beat him to That's not what killed him, So don't believe a lie in ays that that should defict. What killed him was your refusal to get him care after you unlawfully assaulted not one but two police officers and seized control of the scene. And because you put right now as well being, you were responsible. I asked for goddamn police over an hour to send a fucking doctor, and they dragged their feet. Maybe, but all you had to do was opened that door and surrender, and your son would have been on his way to the hospital. Bullshit. I wasn't gonna let another cop mer now until I saw that he got the help that he needed. How many times have we saw when you got to fund somebody up, beat him up, taste them up, shoot him up, and you do nothing that they deaf but they laugh brow You think I was gonna let that ship happen, Well, that's the call you made, but obviously it was the wrong one and now you have to live with that. But if I were in your shoes, I would have laid down my arms so my son could have got the help he needs. Man, you really trying to put their ship on me. I don't know what's wrong with you people. Let me ask you a question. You're a gang banger, right, convicted felon? How many times you gonna you ain't got nothing to do with this? Doesn't it? How many times your in probation? Now you think I don't know what each and every one of those gang tats on your arms means. Let's face it, Gerald, there's no way that you're not the bad guy here. Just be honest for the people out there. Tell him about yourself, tell them who you really are. You're not just some innocent father that caught a bad break, are you? O? Relea Souls? Despite what the people seen in that video, what I've seen with my own two eyes, your defenses that Now's death had nothing to do with your inhumane prejudice, assault on his rights and on his body. Now's with for an errand man to pick up basketball tickets and he ended up dead. Treybond Martin went to a fucking liquor store for some fucking skittles and ended up dead. How can you defend that? I can't speak to that other situation all I'm saying is if you had not started the shooting, I started shooting? Yes, yes, will You assaulted two police officers carrying out their duties. What you broke the law? The reason we pulled your son over in the first place was because he was driving erratically. He broke the law. You and him both set off a chain reaction of unlawful events that resulted in gunfire. If it wasn't for you, no one would be dead right now, are you talking to? My partner would still be alive, and after the suspect was apprehended, we would have put him in custody and gotten in the medical care that he needs. Once you intervened, everything went to ship. Your mistakes, your unlawful behavior was fatal. Had I not intervened. How many more blows would my son have had to take before you were done? Quote unquote subduing him huh? Knocking his teeth thought wasn't enough? Breaking his neck wasn't enough. How many times did you and your partner strike? Now? Oh you don't know that either, do you? And then then you say that I started this ship when you struck my son first, You took the first shot and the second shot it's in the video, man, it's in the video. Officer of the law. I have the right to protect myself and so did my partner. And once you started beating my son, I had the god given right as a father to protect them. Your motherfucker's declare war on our sons, our daughters, are brothers, are sisters, our mother us, our fathers, our fathers before fathers. And the only justification for your actions is that to the police, well fuck that. This should ain't gonna fly no more. I'm fed up, we all fed up. As a father, as a father, you made a dangerous situation even more dangerous because of that. You are to blame. You've convinced yourself that you are the victim here. You're not. You're trying to get sympathy from other people. The truth is you don't deserve it. You are nothing more than a common thug. And I think the people out there should know exactly what type of thug is puppeteering this puppeteering this force. Because you've been in control of the situation the entire time. On your watch, a compass died. Your son has died. I'll probably plead to death myself while you singulartedly try and kill our criminal. Justice was killing you because if you as because of your refusal to surrender, did you let your shore he die on that boy for you like you're fucking as you're fucking liar. In the video, we see Gerald strike Sergeant Place in the face, so handcuffed, the cop loses his balance and falls out of his chair. Joe flips the phone back in the selfie mode, his face filling the screen. The time is seven pm. Voting stars now and ends midnight. Vote up for innocent, vote down for guilty. If the people say he innocent, I'll let Sergeant Place walk. You declare him guilty, I'm gonna kill him. We go live again at eleven pm. Thirty minute before voting closes, The world responds to Gerald's trial Next Time I Got Him hashtag matter, starring Amen Joseph as Gerald Hayes, Jennifer Christopher as Kate Bell, Steve Harris as Jason Shaw Hayley, Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place, Pooch Hall as Martin Simms, and Snoop Dogg as Big H. Additional performances by Nile Bullock as Nile's Hayes Serena Pouncey as Michelle Hayes, Monte Russell as Detective Patterson, and Alex Vaughan as Darrell Hanover. Hashtag Matter was written and directed by Dylan C. Brown. Our executive producers are Sandy Bailey, Lauren Holman, Dylan Brown, Winnie Kemp, and Aymon Joseph. Audio designed by Wolf at the Door, Sound design and mix by Josh Falcon, music by Jonathan Sandford, edited by Darren Bowling, and our sound director is Alexander Kemp. Produced by Toby Lawless and Lucy Jones. Casting by Lawless Casting. Hashtag Matter is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio and an association with Wolf at the Door. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.