One of the world’s biggest superstars has let a film crew record some her most vulnerable moments and we can't stop talking about it. I Am: Celine Dion, reveals a raw insight into the singers life, living with an incredibly rare progressive autoimmune neurological disorder called stiff person syndrome. We discuss the details from the moving documentary and unpack Dion's motivation to share her most personal moments with the world.
Plus, your weekly recommendations, which include an eye-opening podcast, something to do with three generations and the best kind of shopping - it’s free.
And, a very messy Mia, a lesson never learned and Jessie’s big Saturday night, it's our best and worst of the week.
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CREDITS:
Hosts: Holly Wainwright, Mia Freedman & Jessie Stephens
Producer: Emeline Gazilas
Assistant Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Production: Leah Porges
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud and to our Friday show where we take a break from the news cycle and breathe out Today my friends, It's Friday, the fifth of July, and I'm Hollywaynwright, I'm Mea Friedman.
And I'm Jesse Stevens.
And if you want to hear more from us, why wouldn't you want to hear more from us?
Well, there's a weekend ahead, so you're playing the time all this time and you're wondering what you should listen to.
It was the last of season one of Mid. Do not worry if you like MID, and if you don't, why not go listen to it? But Mid is the show I host for gen X women and it's thoughtful conversations. And the last one of season one is with Christine Arnou. You know who she is. She's a bloody icon, but it's just the most amazing, frank conversation. She talks about everything from how she was so flattened by a divorce she couldn't get out of and she very much had to rely on her kids and how she thinks that was probably quite a good thing for them to see that they could look after her sometimes. She also talks about what it's like as an indigenous woman Christine and is from the Torres Strait to have two children who look very different and so the world reacts to them very differently. That was a really fascinating part of the conversation. And she also just talked about addiction, about what happens when the pop music industry decided you're too old. It's a great conversation. Go and listen to it and we'll be back. The season two have mad really quickly.
I interviewed on lo Field this week. Some blokes don't do that that often, but it's always too popular. And there made some new friends. Jimmy and nath have a radio show. I honestly wouldn't even know how to listen to the radio.
An I'm also I'm only laughing because I love how you're like, and I've made some new friends and now then my new best friends.
I love it.
I know they've then compared to Homie Nandy, but they are younger and they are like quite feminist, and Jimmy has mental health struggles. Nath has his own real life interesting story. His wife has cystic fibrosis and they're best friends. They worked together. They're really interesting and it was very sort of candid the conversation on canceled.
We did Katy Perry, which is interesting news cycle.
We didn't talk about that so out louders if you haven't seen that photo that's gone everywhere. She's at some fashion show and she's wearing laddered tights and nothing and an open like fur coat.
Now, there have been a lot of Katie Perry controversies over the year, cause she's been around for a long time ever since, like she's.
Just relaunching career relaunching.
Yes, and remember obviously her Russell Brand marriage and now she's with Orlando Bloom. Anyway, so we talk about everything from her alleged feud with Taylor Swift.
You might have forgotten about that.
Yeah, they made up in that video clip. And I remember she did that film clip Katie Perry where whipped cream or something come out of her boobs.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we talk about all of that. It was a really really fun one. That's the most recent episode of canceled.
We will put a link to all of those episodes in the show notes. Get more of us in your ears, because why wouldn't you.
On today's show? Why did one of the world's biggest superstars decide to let a film crew record her very lowest times? Also recommendations which include a show that will change your mind about agen x Icon, something you can do with three generations, and the best kind of shopping, The Freak Kidd and a lesson Never learned, a very messy Miya and Jesse's Saturday Night that's this week's best and worst. But first, Mia Friedman.
If you were a day of the week, what day would you be?
What are you asking me? Are you asking me what my favorite time of the week?
In no, so, your whole personality can be summed up by a day of the week.
Can I guess yours?
You can? But before you do, I'm going to come down.
Yeah.
So, m Vernon, who you often hear as a guest host on this podcast and who writes the Out Loud newsletter. She wrote a piece on Mamma Meir about it this week that's gone off. So you do this little quiz right If you're a Monday. You live to work and you love it. You're smart, structured, and organized. Some people would describe you as the planner in your household, and you love holding that position. If you're a Monday, you have your entire month planned out. Yeah, Tuesday, you love filling your cup. You aim for a perfect mix of fulfillment from both work and leisure. You love the feeling of achieving something, whether it be completing a big project at work or making your bed in the morning. Maybe you can also speak up for yourself, which when you think you are Wednesday. If you're a Wednesday, you are the glue of your friendship groups. Your calm demeanor allows you to be the person that everyone opens up to and feels safe with your level headed and known for never rushing into anything, you are usually the forgotten souls among the other louder personalities. I'm looking at you Thursdays, which we're about to get to. But that just makes you more powerful. One of your biggest strengths as a Wednesday is listening, making you a keeper of all the secrets. Oh you think that sounds like cute?
Okay, like when ques it sounds a bit boring. Al so powerful.
If you identify as a Thursday. You really wanted to be a weekend day, but didn't want to sound too obnoxious. Thursdays love a fun time, but not a long time. You want to be home by nine pm us, but if you're at a social event, you are the social event. The minute everyone finds out that a Thursday is coming, the vibe is immediately lifted. You're a master of small talk and can make anyone feel like they're interesting and funny. You know a good idea when you see it and love tapping into that creative side of your mind. A Thursday, okay, so Friday. You live your life so carefree that we never know what you're going to do next. It's extremely hard for someone to lock you down, as your calendar is filled with plan after plan every single day of the week. You love big events, the more people, the better. You struggle to juggle your social calendar and are known for being a bit spacey when it comes to remembering important theme.
Well, that's true, but the rest of it.
Friday is the life of the party. Saturday you're ready. Saturday's prioritize their leisure and relaxation over anything else. You work to live and love counting down the days to your next big holiday. If you're a Saturday person, I have one question for you. What's your hobby? I know you have one, maybe.
On a Saturday.
I like not I like you're a mad worker.
I'd like you whole, but also not. Okay, final day Sunday. If someone were to throw a ball at your face right now, you'd catch it.
That's none of us.
I have incredible reflex because you.
Are prepared for anything. Sundays are similar to Mondays, but they're not as good as an organization. You love planning your day exactly the way you want it, and you're not too bothered with anyone else. You have to have your me time and will decline any social plans if you've already carved out time for yourself.
I'm just going to go vibe. My vibe when you initially asked that question was immediately Jesse. Your Thursday. And the reason I think I'm a Thursday is because I like the prospect of the end of the week without the pressure of a weekend. So I love knowing that the weekend is coming. But you don't have to plan anything. You're just living in the joy of knowing freedom, anticipatory.
Yeah, my favorite day of the week is Friday for similar reasons. It's kind of better than Saturday because it's all it's the coodner, it's the promise. Anything could happen. But I'm clearly not a Friday. I want to be a Thursday. But I did a quit it online that just said I was Sunday and it said you are a funny and sweet person to be around, which sounded like patronizing bullshit, and I.
Was like, no, I'm not Eric, I'm actually a Monday.
I knew you were, because of course you are.
Yeah.
Well, the first clue is you live to work and you love it. You're smart, structured, and organized. I don't know if i'm those things.
You're just sad, I think, day am.
I I haven't done the quiz for you. Bloody hell? Do I have to do everything around here?
My voice.
Is the conductor of my life. When your voice brings you joy, my kid, check in, you're the best of yourself.
I need my instrument.
Sorry, sorry.
Your emergency.
Last Friday night, I found myself watching one hour and forty three minutes of a documentary about Selene Dion, which I didn't expect. I started it and I thought, if it doesn't get me and I won't continue it, and then I'd watched all of I am is what it's called. We are going to talk about some of the themes and more broadly, about the story of what's happened to fifty six year old Selene Dion. You've probably seen headlines about her recently, so you don't actually have to have watched the documentary. Most notably, the Canadian singer was diagnosed with an incredibly rare progressive autoimmune neurological disorder called stiff person syndrome in twenty twenty two, and for nearly two decades before her diagnosis, she was dealing with spasms and pain. She was on a lot of medication. There are points in the documentary where she talks about how much value she was taking in order to even perform. SPS affects one in one million people, twice as many women as men, and can be managed but not cured. At this point in the documentary, Dion explained what SPS is.
Here's what she said, and today diagnosis SPS, which is stiff person's central It's in the muscle, it's in attendance, it's in the nerves. You can't see anything because it's not seeable.
On top of how debilitating this disorder is, it has most devastatingly to her, impacted her ability to sing when she tries to sing, this is what happens.
When I try to breathe. My lungs are fine. It's what's in front of my lungs.
That's so rigid.
It's like, I know you, that's what happens.
It's like I know what I want.
To do, and now you can show me.
And that's what happens.
And it's very difficult for me.
Do you hear them to shut this?
When the director Oscar nominated filmmaker Irene Taylor approached Selene Dion about the potential documentary, she actually didn't know about Dion's health. It was only later that she learned about the illness. And there are really confronting scenes in the documentary, including one depicting a seizure where Dion is moaning in pain. Taylor offered to cut the footage, but it was Dion who wanted it in. She said, I think this film can help me. I think this film can help others understand what it's like to be in my body. You both watched this documentary this week. What did you take away from it?
I was heartbroken by it. I was riveted by it too. Like I wasn't a big Celendion fan, I sort of followed her. I've never really loved her music. I mean, she's obviously an incredible singer, but I've never really been a big fan of her music. But she was very much a tabloid fixture when I was in magazines.
You know.
She married her manager who'd known her since he sort of discovered her when she was twelve, and he was much older than her, and they had children together, and then he got throat cancer and fought that for quite a long time and died about five or six years ago, soon after they had their twins. I watched it, and I found it incredibly moving. I kept asking myself, I wonder why she did this. It was very surprising because it was completely without vanity. She had no makeup on in any of it. I mean, it was interspersed with footage of her on stage. And I was reminded of what an extraordinary talent and extraordinary voice she has, or she had, which is what's so sad and what we just heard then she was the only person who was interviewed through it, and it's shot in a very tight style, so it's very unforgiving.
It's nearly all in her house as well, Yeah, which I think is a very deliberate choice, because in a way it was interspersed with all these arena shows and awards, ceremonies and performances at you know, massive, massive events, and it showed you that her life has shrunk to her living in this very palatial, obviously amazing compound in Las Vegas. I don't understand why she lives in Las Vegas, but anyway, and she's feeding her dog, she is feeding guinea pigs, she is doing medical appointments, she is with her children. Her life is now just this appointment, very small, completely different existence. And I thought that was quite powerfully shown.
She's only fifty six. That I had to google it while I was watching it because I thought, hang On to have an illness of that severity at that age is just really, really sad. But in terms of why she made this documentary, I was wondering the same thing. And then there's the scene at the end which I referred to, where she has a seizure and for a lot of people, that would be your worst nightmare. Have you in that kind of state broadcast to the world. It's incredibly vulnerable, and she's not really conscious and she's in pain, like it's really scary and really full on. But I think that this is more broadly a story about chronic illness and how people who are living with a chronic illness, which is often invisible, how desperately they want to be seen. Because if you say that you have this, and in fact it often doesn't show up on scans, it's really difficult to get a diagnosis. Then I think there's this instinct to think that people aren't going to believe you, and so you want to perform or prove just how sick you are. And with someone who has this level of obligation to her fans, and I think she's horrified that towards the end of when she was most recently performing, she couldn't do it, and she would have little tricks like she would tap on the microphone and pretend that I was anars she with the microphone, or she'd point the microphone at the crowd. I think she feels such shame that she let them down.
That she had to cancel her residency.
Yeah.
Us, this is almost a doctor's certificate to go. I need you to say how sick I am, so that you understand I never wanted to let you down.
I think that's very true. Because to your point about invisible illnesses, because this is quite a long film, there are portions of it that are kind of fun.
Right.
She's actually a good time to hang out with Celinda on She was quite funny. She has stories. Obviously, she clearly loves what she does or what she did so much that it's almost all of her. And she takes you to her warehouse where all her wardrobe archive is, and it's clear how much she loved all that, the clothes, the shoes, her home amazing. So a lot of it is kind of fun, and there are periods of it where you kind of like, oh, she doesn't seem that sick, you know what I mean. She seems all right. She's getting around a bit, she's you know, playing with the dogs. She's going to do a little job here and there. One of the things for people who have invisible chronic illnesses is they have to still live life with this thing that no one can see, and it's very easy for people to discount it and be like, oh, well, there's nothing wrong with you, or like, oh, you seem heaps better today, you know, like, and it's kind of an assumption that there's always a positive momentum. And so when the film kind of ends, it ends with her going back to the studio and singing, and she actually sounds pretty good, and her producers are saying, oh, good on you, and she loved it, and you could tell she's all lit up by it, and then she has this terrible seizure and it's kind of showing you that this is not going away, and this is much more serious than it may represent on her body from the outside.
That's interesting because stressful situations loud noises, physical touch, there are certain triggers that can trigger the spasms and the seizures and stuff that come from it, which is actually with a lot of autoimmune disorders and a lot of chronic illnesses. Anything from stress, which sounds like a really broad umbrella term, can throw the body into fight or flight. And so even though you might see these moments of someone piercing through and being able to do it, the cost is invisible to us.
Because it's not even negative just negative stress. It's also positive stress.
Because she was lit up by that and exerting energy, really.
Stimulated by it. And also though it was interesting, she said this first happened seventeen years ago. She started noticing symptoms and she didn't know what it was, and so she said, I've been hiding it all this time, and I can't lie anymore. And I think you're right. This is her doctor's note, but also her confessional, because the emotional cost of having to maintain a lie is so high and had become unbearable for her, and she said, you know, I feel like people see me out laughing with my family and they're like, but you cancel your concert tickets. Why aren't you performing? So you're right, She's like, these are my bona fides. Look at my pain, which broke my heart. And it was at such a pivotal time in her life where she is reconstructing her identity and what is her identity if she can't sing? And one of the most poignant parts of it was when she was watching John Farnham and she was clearly a John Farnham fangirl, and they clearly had an amazing mutual appreciation and respect. And when she was touring in Australia, she brought him on stage, and by then he was already a little bit frail, and we know that since then he's battled cancer and has had to have his jaw reconstructed, and presumably he can't sing anymore either. And so you say, what happens when what you are known for and what you love the most you can't do anymore, and the existential crisis that must provoke.
I wanted to ask if for any time during this you felt like saying to her stop trying, not stop trying to live and feel as well as you can. But clearly it's sort of all about this battle to get back on stage and do what she loves doing, because it is so clear that that is what she loves doing and she can't stop herself from singing all the time and wanting to do that. Was there any part of you that was kind of like.
Darh'll give it up. It made me think of two other things we've spoken about this week. One was Joe Biden and when it's so clear from the outside that your perception of what you're capable of and what you might be capable of again is so far removed from what everybody else can see. And also Victoria on American's Sweethearts the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders, when it's so clear she's struggling to stay on the team and to live up to all the things she needs to be and you want to say, just hang up your pom poms and move on, but she can't. And I was just really struck by the poignancy and also the difference in the way, particularly Joe Bryden, who at the time of recording is still leading the party and has not sort of stepped aside and keeps saying I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. And Selene who like wants to show the world I'm not fine but still hopes to be fine.
I'm gonna come back, And there's no world in which to her she doesn't. I don't think she can live with that. That made me wonder if it's because we are hit over the head with the resilience narrative. The stories we tell and the stories we celebrate are ones where someone is told they can't but then they do, And for most people it's actually not how life goes. There's real grace in going you're not gonna sing like you.
I think that while you're trying, there's hope, and I think once you're not trying anymore, that hope is extinguished. And I think that that is something that people prolong way longer than they should, because it's should's the wrong. But I think that's almost a self preservation mechanism because for Joe Biden to go I'm done, I'm out, and of course that's what he should have done a long time ago. But you have to be gentle with people, I don't mean him, but like her and not puncture her belief in her hope and go Selena never getting back on that stage.
But at what cost?
Well, that's interesting, yeah, because I came out of this with a lot of admiration for her, and to be very honest, I hadn't really thought very much about her at all for a long time, but a lot of admiration for her and liking her a great deal. But it's kind of easy from the outside to think, you've got all this money, you've got all this freedom. You could be in Monte Carlo, you could be just hanging around going to nice parties, wearing nice dresses. You could be like for the rest of your life, right kids are growing up, you could be fine. It's so clear that this is who she is. Well, that's what she believes. That she almost could sing before she could walk, and that if she can't sing and she can't perform. And it was also interesting she said at one point that the performance is more important than the song. So obviously it's not just the music that she loves, but it's the performance. And all the historical footage on this showed you want an amazing performer, she was. She obviously feels like without that she doesn't exist. She said, I missed the people, and I can understand, like you.
Look at we talk about why to the Dallas cowboyd cheerleaders want to get up. It's like the rush of being up there and having everybody cheering for you while you do something that you love. That would be wild.
I think the optics as well of this documentary for people like Celine Dion, for all of history, they disappeared. They just disappeared. And in fact, for a lot of people with chronic illness, they just fall out of your linares. They can't leave their house, and people just forget about it.
And they don't want to be a drag. They're like, oh, you know, I am still battling that. No, I don't have a happy narrative for you.
People are impatient, people move on, And so I thought that to render that visible was incredibly brave of her, to have someone follow her around and look sickness in the face. And there was another quote by the director who said, there's such utility in staring pain in the face, and we have this instinct to look away, and you could feel it when you're watching her in that seizure like scene went on for seal. She just wanted to close your eyes. And she said the same, but she said that she's learned through filmmaking that something very human happens when you don't look away, when you actually look the person in the eye and bear witness to it.
Is this the documentary making?
Yeah, we could do that more with illness because we don't like looking at it. It means we're confronting our immortality. It means if she's that sick, I could be that sick. We don't like it.
The same with aging.
Yeah, yeah, it was very brave.
It's really heartbreaking. I've been in this situation, you know, thinking about Joe Biden, thinking about Selene with the old founder of Cosmo, Helen Gurley Brown, who was literally still editing Cosmo when I first became an editor. I think she was probably in her late seventies and she was still editing that magazine in America. This is more Joe Biden comparison than a Selene comparison. But she had to get tapped on the shoulder, and everyone was trying to do that in such a gentle way. And I remember I was there during that period where they had to bring someone else in for the sake of the brand, because this woman who had been such an icon and amazing and an amazing business woman and an amazing cultural figure, had not been able to move with the times and was suddenly saying things like, oh, I think it's great if a man pinches you on the balm at work, Like I think that's really flattering. And she was saying things like women can't get AIDS, and it was becoming so awful for the brand and awful for her. And my introduction to her, you know, I sort of got to know her at that age was that she was a joke and it was only from getting to know her and understanding her legacy. I'm like, oh, you are an icon. And you compare that, say to Gloria Steinem She just turned ninety and she has been able to kind of transition. No one's really had to tap her on the shoulder. But what was heartbreaking about Helen was that she would say, like at dinners and stuff, Oh, they've put me out to pasture. They want me just out to pass you because I'm too old. And it would be like, oh, yeah, you are, but odd.
But it's a question of legacy. And the same thing happens with Selaine d On. It's like, has the legacy been made? There's nothing else you could achieve. She has the most successful Las Vegas residency of all time. She made something like six hundred and eighteen million dollars. Like, where's the goal that you're you know, but it's not.
The goal joy, it's the joy of doing it. And the thing about that is it's interesting. And I know this isn't necessarily as you say so Selena Jason. As the aging issue, on one hand, we think that as you age, you get wiser and you've got more experience and more knowledge, But then there's a tipping pointer at which it's like, just go away now, we don't want to look at you. We don't have any patients for listening to you. You've had your turn former sentence. It's like the argument we had about Jermaine Greer a few months ago, the idea of whether or not we have any patience to listen to people talking if they're not doing it like at top speed and incredibly sharp and articulate, as if they've got does that mean that their thoughts aren't interesting or relevant anymore. I don't mean to say this in defense of Joe Biden. I think we've prosecuted that thoroughly this week, that we all are in agreement, that you know, But it's that idea of you know, the part of me that was thinking about Celine Dion. You've done everything, you've achieved everything, you've got everything, and was enjoying sort of looking into her world. That's who she is, and I think it's almost impossible for you to accept that it's over, and why would you? It was very interesting and thought provoking, and also this is a woman who will wear shoes of any size.
When a girl loves her shoes. She always make them fit.
Every time I went to story and I love those shoes. They said, what size are you, ma'am? I said, no, you don't understand what size.
Do you have.
I'll make them work, I'll make them fit.
I will walk the shoe. I walk the shoe. The shoe, don't walk me have worked.
Shoes with my feet like this and sometimes like this, to hold down to them from six to ten.
Give it to me.
I love them. It's really thought provoking.
It's really It's on Prime Video. It's called I Am Celine Dion. If you've watched it, please let us know what you think.
This month, Momma Mia turned seventeen. We know birthdays aren't all that exciting when they're not well. Your birthday, they are around enough presents, So we want to take this as a chance to give you a treat and say thank you for being on the ride with us.
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It's Friday. So we want to help set up your weekend with our best recommendations. Jesse, what do you recommend?
I have it a bit of an unusual one this week when we're away. You know, when you're traveling, you've got a lot of breakfast, lunch and dinners and time in the car and blah blah blah. You need an activity, right, A game, A lovely game. We had different generations and all different interests. Anyway, I always do the good Weekend quiz, right, I think let's do that too. It's a real fun coming together when you've got a bit of a hodgepodge group of people. It's like, let's do the good Weekend quiz. And oh, this person I haven't spoken to has a special interest area in tennis. Great, now we have something to bond over.
You find that you need to do that in a group with different people who have different specialized interests, because I lose interest if I don't know all the see.
I'm not good at trivia. But I find that everyone's focused.
You can get only twenty five questions.
Very inclusive of everyone starts interesting discussions. Right, So I've always done the Good Weekend.
What kind of questions are there?
Okay, well, actually this is about the other quiz that I'm about to recommend. But what do you reckon is the most profitable flight path in the whole world?
It's that kind of question Sidney Melbourne. How did you know that? Because I know I've always remembered that Sydney Melbourne is the most frequent flight path in the whole world.
It's to do with cost, right, because actually quite an expensive flight for a short one, because I thought it might be New York, Paris or something like that. Apparently it's why they won't make a train. Don't quote me on that anyway. Fat love quiz. See you'd be fun anyway. So good weekend quiz. Only once a week it's not enough. I needed more quizz So there is this quiz called Gatekeepers of Knowledge. It's on Instagram and they have fifteen questions and then they have a discussion question, which is always really fun.
Is this every day they do new ones?
No, they do it once a week. It's quite Australian like. It's an Australian guy who does it full transparency. It's one of Luca's friends. And so we kind of started doing it as a joke and I were like, oh, this is actually.
I'm so glad you've disclosed that.
Yeah.
No, no, no, I didn't want to get exactly, but we just had so much fun with it. Like there was one discussion question that was like how would you prove you're not AI or something? And like just the interesting rabbit holes people went down. So much fun gives you the answers. It's all on Instagram, all on the platform. Loved it. It's called gate Keepers of Knowledge on Instagram.
Holly, what's your recommendation?
Okay, I've been listening to a podcast that is quite a serious one, right, I think it out Louder recommended this to me because they thought Holly were like this, and they were right. I think it actually came out last year. It's called Who Trolled Amber? And it's made by Tortoise Media, who are a British media organization who make kind of quite thinky, very well researched deep podcasts, and it's about Amber heard.
This story starts with a spy, well a former spy, someone who knows how easy it is to sway opinions online. This person came to me with a strange theory.
I spent a period of time investigating disinformation campaigns, so foreign influenced operations, information worker stuff.
This was more akin to that what I was witnessing.
Not about a stolen election or a hacking operation, but about Johnny Depp and Amber Heard.
There is no way that that was all.
There's no way.
Specifically, it dives into whether or not the overwhelming social media campaign that came along and tore down Amber Heard during those trials were genuine or whether they were somehow like an organized campaign.
I remember it was unheard of the amount of online h.
She kept up in that twenty four hours.
I really did. And for those who may or may not remember, is that. Originally the amber Heard Johnny Depp trial started in London. It was a defamation case against a British newspaper being brought by Johnny Depp who had called him a wife beater, and amber Heard in that case was represented by the great Australian human rights lowder Jennifer Robinson, one of my obsessions, one of my Roman empires, but she also Julias was Juliana Sange's lawyer all over the media last week. She has worked with some of the most controversial figures in the world. She said she had never seen anything like the hate that was directed at Amber Heard in that first trial when she was representing her in Britain. Just to be clear, heard one that, or rather Johnny Depp lost that. A judge in Britain did find that on several occasions, irrefutably, Johnny Depp had abused hit struck Amber Heard right, that happened, and she won. Then when the case went to the US the next year, which is when Johnny Depp was suing her for not naming him in a magazine article but saying that she was a survivor of domestic violence, That's when the circus kicked up a notch, right, and it.
Was like a TikTok. I got pulled into this algorithm that wanted to convince me that Amber Heard was the baddie and that Johnny Depp was an.
Even my kids got pulled into that.
Oh, my kids still talk about it now. It was such an effective smear campaign against herd that I think you'd be hard pushed if you stopped a certain number of people on the street and ask them about that. They would say, she's crazy, she's deluded. He didn't do anything. The thing that's fascinating about this podcast is it starts with this case and the hosts a guy called Alexei Mostross, and he and his team start digging into because a lot of people were suspicious about this vast like social media thing.
But why did everybody?
Why?
Yes?
And why was it so overwhelming? And they started digging into these vast data sets of tweets about Amber Heard and alarm bell started going off almost immediately. One account, for example, like one account had tweeted anti heard messages more than three hundred and seventy thousand times, which would be in a post every two minutes, twenty four hours a day for three years.
Oh my god. So it was bots.
They're not people. So the whole premise of who trolled Amber and it's impeccably sourced. They talked to Gen Robinson, they talked to heaps of people. Is about was this really about Johnny Depp and number Heard or is this really a much bigger, sinister, almost test case for what happens when powerful entity wants to interfere with the public situation, whether that might be politics, whether that might be a criminal criminal trial, Maybe there might be a the US election.
You might not be able to tell me this yet, But did Johnny Depp have anything.
To do with that? Well, that's not entirely clear, and obviously the legals on this are considerable. I wasn't ask, but it is a very fascinating and disturbing show that tells you a lot about the way that the online.
World works and how public opinion can be my and.
If for bad actors, if it sounds like a lot, it kind of is. But one of the things that it just reminds us all the time, which I think we need reminding of more than ever as we head into this next phase of AI and as you say, the US election, MEA and all the things it's not organic, the stuff that we know this right, the stuff we served, the opinions we're being shown all the time, the things we'll repeat back as absolutely like very often. There are much much bigger things going on here. So who trold Amber. It's a podcast. You can find it wherever you find podcasts. If you are want to have your mind blown and feel a little bit terrified, go for it.
That sounds like fun. And to be clear, when I said bad actors, I wasn't talking about an actual actor it was a bad at acting. I meant, I'm a levolent course entity. My recommendation is to do a clothes swap. We did this at MMMA Maya this week. I also have been doing it in a WhatsApp group with a couple of golf friends and we're all trying to buy less at the moment, sometimes succeeding, sometimes not. But thrifting is really making a huge comeback and what we wanted to do, particularly since we all got our colors done in here and suddenly we're all looking at our wardrobes in different ways and thinking, here are all those things I didn't I've always wondered why I didn't want to put them on. It's because they're not the good colors for me. And so we all had big wardrobe clean outs. We set up a system where everyone that brought something would get a token so they would get first DIBs. But then there were other people who didn't bring something. You can do it however you want, whether it's with girlfriends, people at work, your sports team, and it's just great. There was everything from accessories to leggings, bags, shoes, dresses.
I really wanted to do it, but I felt self conscious because I didn't think that what I had to contribute was merely as good as I felt the same.
But it doesn't matter. Like there's some stuff left over which we are going to donate to women's shelter and go into land.
Fully and I think, not this stuff you do all the time? Can you keep doing that?
Yeah? I will keep doing that, So close swap. Highly recommend and my other recommendation is now you sign up to the out Louders newsletter because all our recommendations links to all the things we talk about, behind the scenes stories that we've talked about during the week, they'll all be in there. There is a link to sign up to the newsletter. It's free. In the show notes.
High out Louders, it's em Vernon here with a quick record and back in your ears. I kind of shiving my way back in the podcast when everyone else left. And this is one for the single girls. Oh if you're not a single girl but have friends who are single, this is for you as well. If you live in Sydney, there is an event that we're hosting as Mama Mia with the Sydney Swans. It's called Match Day Mingle and it's presented by Listerine. The idea of this event actually started from where all good things start. A TikTok our social team went to a Swan's game recently and they pretty much just like filmed themselves asking them who attended the game if they're single or not. That video went absolutely viral. It got picked up on TV. It got over a million views on TikTok. So we thought we'd formalize it because it seems like the girlies want to go to the Sydney Swans game. If that's you, I highly encourage you to come along.
I'll be there.
We get to meet, we get to hang. It's going to be held on July thirteenth. If you come, you can watch the whole game with us. You can have a drink, you can have some food. There's even going to be DJ's. It's going to be like a proper party sesh. So come along. It's going to be at the SEG on Saturday. We will put a link in our show notes for where you can buy tickets.
What unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum and Maya subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes to get us in your ears five days a week, and a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
Okay, this is the part of the show obviously where we share a little more from our personal lives. We're not talking about big picture things, We're talking about little picture things. My worst last week.
I was sick.
And I know that often our sicknesses are very sicknesses are our worst. It's kind of obvious.
Yeah, it's very revealing. It's revealing about health, though, isn't it.
It's only your best you get a week exactly, that's true. That was her best one.
Yeah, I did take a couple of days off work, as you would know if you listen to out Loud, because I wasn't on it. But the thing about it is so I got what we think is probably a migraine. And I have had dalliances with migraines before, but I'd never experienced anything like this. I was flattened for a few days. But also it may not have been a migraine. It's one of those things where you know, people don't really know what it is. But basically I had a really debilitating headache for a while. I felt nauseous, all those things, and it could have been hormonal, It could have been all that stuff. But also it made me remember the lesson that we always forget right, which is that I think I'm really tired, Like I think that we have had an enormous few months, like in terms of work and all doing things. I love love, love, love love out loud the Tall launching mid When we got back from Tall, you got sick, mea fell in a heap for.
A few days, for a week.
Is it like when the doctor asked, Siket stressed, if you've had much on and then you kind of have to go. It's like a flash of the last few months.
There was that.
But then also in any time that I haven't been doing that, I'm trying to finish my book. I'm on rewrites of my book. So like every minute of every day is work of some kind and again I love it all. Like you don't have to disclaim you to the way they sound like a wind, Joe, Well you are owing, that's a stated fact.
But like you've also been driving up and down the coast, the community, your dad.
There's a lot going on, and then there's just normal life, kids, family, all the things and The thing is that's interesting. Is it reminded me that a few weeks ago I did that interview with Catherine May about burnout. She said, if you don't address trying to make life a bit more manageable and taking time to look after yourself and all those things, burnout will come and find you. Oh yes, it will come and knock on your head. In this case, wow, possibly, I mean, but it could have been many other things. It'll come and knock on you, and it will make you lie down. And I know it sounds woo woo health.
Nice people are saying.
But it's like it's like a reminder and a lesson that I often don't learn. Is I'm like, it's fine, it's fine, Like I can do all these things when this is finished, when this busy time is over, I'll have a break, I'll do whatever. But it's like, ultimately you can only do so much, and burnout does get to us all in the end.
So I think it was one of those keeps trying to teach moments and all of us the same lesson.
Sounds a bit victim blame me, blaming yourself for your headache. Sometimes headaches just come.
Yes, And in fact, the other thing that's been interesting is that because the headache lasted a long time, still here a little bit, and don't at me out loud, as I've had brain scams and things like, I'm not you know, I've been trying, like I've had acupuncture. I've had cops stuck on me. Oh I love how the like I'm doing all that shit.
Have you tried manifesting to not have a headache and I'm manifesting manifest harder And I'm like, and all the people I've been talking to me not lately are like meditate, meditates, So I'm like, I'm gonna have to stop.
Meditating my headache away.
Anyway.
That was my worst is being reminded I am not, in fact superhuman, as none of us are. My best is very, very frivolous. My best is that one day this week I came to work better, obviously wearing double dead.
I nearly did that the other day today.
So many compliments in the air, something something.
If you would make if me, you would make fun of me, so I didn't. But I will have.
Out wardrobes gone into sink. I have like.
Because different shades, so well, I've got this outfit I've worn a couple of times, because you know me, I don't have that many things that I wear all the time. I'm a bit of a uniform person. My dark denim Karina jeans that I love and this dark denim shirt that I got from somewhere, short sleeved shirt. They're not meant to be the same, but they are almost the same, and whenever I wear them together, maybe with a colorful shoe. I was trying hard this day because I was like wanting to feel good after feeling sick. So I actually wore gold shoes and sparkly socks to get the sparkly So they're old and I think they were from top shops.
What kind of sparkly socks do you want?
I just want like a like a.
What does that mean? Spark packs? You want butter sock?
Anyway, I wore double denim, and I got so many compliments that day that I was like, double denim is where it's frickin' at. I'm gonna wear double deadim all winter locker. Do it have different shades?
Let's do it?
Tell me? Is it better to do double denim of different shades or try and match the shades because I do both either. Well, I mean I don't do both. I've only been matching my shade.
I think double Denim's just outstanding since Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears wore it to the VMA they did double double that, they did quadruple Dennil, I'm going to do it. I think, well, we should all do it on Monday. We'll take photo double it in Monday.
Mia.
My worst is that I have been spilling things a lot this week. I am a spiller.
I think that's your burnoutside. Yeah, I don't think you burn out.
It's like how I used to fall over all the Remember how I used to fall over all the time.
I think you could be right. So this week alone, I have knocked over a full cup of tea in my daughter's bed, fortunately not mine, because I was just hanging out in her room. She's away, hanging out in her room because.
She's away, So you know, I would hate that if I was with my boundary.
She's not listening. I know she doesn't like it. She doesn't even like outside clothes. You're not allowed to wear your outside clothes sitting on her bed anyway, I've been like luxuriating and having her bedroom to myself, because you know, when you when you live with someone, give up your own room. Don't like that, so I've been using her room anyway. I knocked over a full cup of and you know how big my cups of tea are, full cup of tea on the bed. Two days later, I was leaving for work early, leaned over the bed to kiss my husband goodbye, knocked over a full cup of tea from the night before that was cold, that was beside the bed, onto the carp And then yesterday I was going to put the milk back in the fridge, dropped it on the rug in the kitchen, and of course I hadn't put the lid on properly because I'm not very good with that stuff. Full bottle of liter of milk all over, spilt milk. And this morning, Jays, I wonder what I'm going to spill today. And then I was drinking my smoothie and I spilt it on my nose. I don't know how I even did that. So yeah, if my spill is my tail, that's that. My best of the week is I've got a little surprise for you guys. You wouldn't think it's my best of the week because it in a bit of a sad story, but it actually has just given me so many lolls. Here's a little voice note from someone who's going to tell you what my best of the week.
Was, Polly and Jess. It's Julia Bird. Here. I am doing a public confession because I fucked up, and Maya has asked me to do it. It's kind of, I think, like putting my head in the stocks. I had an event to go to. I had gold boots. I was trying to work out what to wear with it, and who else would you think of when you think gold and sparkly?
Yah.
I texted her and she's so gorgeous. She dropped around a whole bunch of her clothes and there was one coat I was particularly fond of. Or it to the event is fantastic and Mia goes, just wear whatever you like until we see each other again. And so last weekend, faithfully, I was going to a dinner party and I threw it over this this long goldpread coat, over this black dress I was wearing. Went to dinner halfway through a goat of the bathroom and then I'm sitting there and I smell smoke and I look around and the coat is on fire. Basically my bob is on fire. And I stand up and its flames are coming off it. And I had to put on the tiles and stomp on it. And there in the ash was me as trusted me. I'mgoing And so I was mortified. I went home. I googled it. I couldn't find a replacement. I had to confess to me out and I said, mate, I've done something really bad and I'm literally having kittens and I stopped it up and I'm trying to find a replacement coat. And she goes, did you lose it? And I'm like, no, I said it on fire.
Of course your coat was flammable.
Of course I have to say. It's one of the most expensive coats. Oh no, it's the one you love. Love that it's beautiful. Can you do a bad How could you have possibly appeared.
That photo of it? And can you put it on the Outliers instogram so that we will say.
Because it is like beautiful, like I love it. It has made me laugh so much because I said to Jules, Babe, if you didn't like it, you could have just said something on fire, and I'm like, how are you going to return it to me in an urn?
No, maybe this is an elaborate roost. She's actually stolen it and she doesn't want to give it back. And what do you say? You don't want to say you lost it, so you say I accidentally said it on fire. This is a very tall tale.
If she was seen out in it somewhere.
So true. She's so mortified, and it just I just said, here's your penance. You have to make her voicemail. You have to confess. And I'm playing it in the podcast.
What I feel like this is a dilemma because it's like, Okay, if you burn a friend's coat, what is.
Your what do you?
I like that?
She?
You know you should try and replace it. It doesn't exist.
No, you can't find it anymore.
So she's just what indebted to you for all of eternity?
She just have to come round and clean up me as spilt smoothies for maybe a decade.
Yeah, just to wear it. I'm going to buy a hair shirt for her away. Oh my goodness, you probably one of those. Probably a hairshirt, sparkly hairshit. That has been my best because it's just been so funny, like of all the things like how about could it be if you've stained it or maybe you've lost it left it in an uber and she goes, I said it on fire.
I must have been candles.
My worst is that I've been trying to get back into exercise since I was away, and I booked into a pilates class this week. And you know when you organize your whole day around, like Luca's gonna get home and I'm going to do the handover and then I can get out for just one hour and do this class that I really really want to do. I've joined this new gym so excited I leave. I like do my like fast walk to the gym. There's a bit of an issue with the thing to swipe in, run up, open the door, and the person who's running the class just looks at me and goes the class has started, and then close the door in my face. And then I looked at the time and I was one minute.
Oh, no, one minute late? Was it a Dallas cowboy cheerleaders class run.
By Kelly Kelly?
And you haven't got makeup?
Yeah, and you look.
Like a foot and your nails a quite shit was so upset. So I was like, okay, the only option here is to go into the change room and cry because I just I felt so like vulnerable.
If you are holy in my age, you would say, I need to speak to the manager. People have a feedback for do you have a feedback forward?
How much it costs to do an exercise class in this day and age? Too much? And I think they give you a little thing if you don't make it. Then I was like, well, I am at the gym as a class inner gym, so I was like, technically I could exercise in another way, but I was meant to do my pilates class.
If you're psyched up for a class, you can't just suddenly get on the rower.
It's not it doesn't work like that one minute.
When you just go to all spoil.
This always has ruined to me.
Its ruined, it's ruined. I can't.
It was so sad. My best is my Saturday night. I haven't told you about my Saturday night. I went out out out I'm going to go out with Okay, So two of my very good friends, their group of mates, run this event called Show Us Your Tips, which is like a queer event it's body and sex positive and basically it's local professionals that perform right pole dancing, but they are naked. What yes, the boobies out, bits, out, all of it out, whole things naked.
What other things could you do?
And they perform it like they are amazing and like it's not just like it's like a strip tease. No, no, definitely not just me. There was a nude model and everyone had to draw them. There was like a queer pole dancing. I love watching pot you never.
Get pole danced.
Amazing it was to watch people do it, and they came out at the beginning that it was hosted by this incredible person who was like two rules. Everybody is beautiful body, so we don't body shame here, and bodies of all different shapes and sizes. There was no preference. There was so much diversity. And the second thing was don't touch like the person walking around about photos. No photos, so they put little stickers on the back of your phone camera so that you can't go up and just take a photo of surptitiously.
Yeah.
So yeah, no photos and just like respect and blah blah blah. And when you buy a ticket you also get like these tokens so that you can tip people as they're like dancing, So the shows your tips essentially like pay the pay the talent.
But I just thought, were there men and women?
Men and women?
Can I ask about the nude pole dancing? Do you not then look up into someone's anus and vagina so closely, so close up into their aus?
I think the person on the pole may have kept their G string on, but I just couldn't stop staring.
You know, a very long time ago, I was at a not very radical and exciting pole dancing night at some awful strip club in Melbourne. I don't know where I found myself there. I was in my twenties, and these things happened, and.
Thought you meant like a couple of weeks ago.
The image I will never get out of my mind is after the pole dance had finished, a little man came on with a spray bottle and a little wipey cloth. Obviously you have to for obvious reasons. It just shutters any glad.
I want that too, I wanted, and I thought, are they living it up for something? What are they loved that? But the reason I loved it so much was so they said the thing that being about don't touch, and I just thought we've had heaps of conversations about sexual assault and everything. On this show, everyone was just cool, like you can walk out cool with your boobs out and no one touches you because we're all grown ups and we actually know how to restrain ourselves.
Be cool.
The second thing was that in the queer community, and I was very much like, there is an ally, but the history of these communities and sex workers and homophobia, what some of these people have experienced is really really tough. And to feel like the pride in the room and the freedom of it was just so much fun. Like I loved, loved being a part of it, and it was just so entertaining and I just thought this was really cool, amazing. Yeah, it was really really cool. I was out till so late and then I probably drank a little bit too much, but then I just slept off my hangover and I haven't done that since before and I was born. So it was just a very that's a milestone.
Yeah.
Yeah, I went out and I didn't think about that. I was just there looking at the boobies and the willies and all that.
Loved it.
Loved it.
That's the best best forrase.
That's so good. That should we That also makes sense because on Sunday when all our kids are away, this is one of the best Our kids are away and we've sent our dogs away. Jason and I have an empty house. We don't remember. We just are like giggling. We're just like since when giggling all the time. We just got all this freedom. We sent the dogs away so it would be like a proper experience. We're having a sleep in on Sunday morning. Didn't have to get up early to let the dogs out. Luca.
If you, Luna, someone look after this baby.
It's never over.
I don't think Jesse's getting out of here today.
Jesse's very much asleep. Have about your Grandma time.
If you're sad that the week is over, do not worry. We have plenty more episodes for you to listen to. If you missed yesterday's subs episode, Oh, we talked about Jesse's therapy dilemma. Here's a little bit of what we said.
Recently, someone very clever said stress is actually the denial of emotion, not the emotion itself. So I wish it was more My voice but I hear my psychologist in my head a lot before I make certain decisions. This inner child work, which sounds really woo woo, but basically, like, listen to the deepest part of you that's saying no, I don't want to do that. No, I'm tired, No I'm sick, No I want to hang out with my daughter. The more you reject that like, it's quite fracturing.
We'll put a link in the show notes who that episode.
That's it.
That's all we've got time for today and this week. Massive thank you to all of you the out louders for listening today's show. We'll be back in your ears next week. This episode was produced by amaling Ga Zillas. The assistant producer is Chylie Blackman, with audio production from Leah Porge's.
Thank You, I'd Loveless and Goodbye Bye.
Shout out to any Muma Mia subscribers listening. If you love the show and want to support us as well, subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way to do so. There is a link in the episode description