You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. Hello, out louders, it's Holly popping up in your ears today to tell you about our out Loud Sunday special. I don't know if you've been listening to MID, but if not, why not. It's the show that I host that is for gen x women who are anything but and on MED. We have all kinds of conversations about all kinds of things that grown up women have to deal with, and one of them that is very relevant at this time of year is about alcohol. You might be well and truly into the silly season now, Christmas parties, festive lunches, New Years, all of that stuff, and how do you know if your relationship with alcohol is getting a bit out of control. One of the first episodes of MID I did because I knew this was a big topic for gen X women, was with Shana Juan from Sober in the Country, and I talked to her about her story about how she broke up with alcohol in midlife, how she did it, what her life's like now, what had brought her to that point, how do you know if you're drinking too much? It's a really important conversation. And look, if you want more Mid, jump over to the midfeed and there are plenty of episodes about all kinds of things that affect gen X women in that feed, and you can listen via the link in our show notes. Gen X grew up with the cool girls with the drink like the boys, girls with beers and bladders and big fruity cocktails, weekends of blurry bedtimes and painful mornings for what happened last night and examining mystery bruises through a thickening head. Our pinups weren't five am yoga girlies clutching smoothie. We swooned over Kate Moss slinking out from somewhere, drinking one hand, dart in the other, a footloose man at her side. We were messy, sometimes made some bad calls, perhaps woke up with the shame maybe, But that's what fun was, we thought. Then we grew up and there was wine o'clock and Hen's Nights and girls did and Margie's and it's definitely six o'clock somewhere, and pop a bottle and we get knocked down, but we get up again, and then we didn't really go out anymore. But the wine was still in the fridge. And maybe it gets you through those witching hours between five and seven, But then what then? Those hours can be hard and long without the fridge doors swinging open and the sound of the glug glug. Poor, best not think about it. Life's a lot. You deserve a little treat. And it's been the thing that's been there for you at all the big moments, hand in yours as you've grown up, a symbol of summer, of good times, of freedom and holidays and birthdays and christenings and Sunday afternoons just because. And then maybe yes, it's been there hand in yours, in the arguments that should never have been and that thing that you didn't mean to say to your kid, and the shortened temper and the messy memories that you've chased away. It was there at the breakup and on that night you did what you said you wouldn't, and that one your friends still talk about, and you wonder, I think I might have outgrown you alcohol. Why are you still here? Hello, and welcome to mid My name's Holly Wainwright and I am mid midlife, mid family, mid identity crisis. Look, we're here to have the conversations that interest Gen X women because we are anything but mid And the only conversations we've got time for are deep ones, helpful ones, ones that make us we a little bit because we're snort laughing so hard. All of that's okay. And today I'm having one of those kind of conversations with Shanna. One about Generation X is complicated relationship with alcohol. We drink more than the generation above and the generation below. And here's where I put up my hand and say that I am not sober. I am not a sober member of Generation X. Alcohol definitely plays a role in my life, as I say to Shanna, but she told me that ninety percent of the people who seek help from her organization sober in the country or women aged between forty and sixty.

Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. Hello, out louders, it's Holly popping up in your ears today to tell you about our out Loud Sunday special. I don't know if you've been listening to MID, but if not, why not. It's the show that I host that is for gen x women who are anything but and on MED. We have all kinds of conversations about all kinds of things that grown up women have to deal with, and one of them that is very relevant at this time of year is about alcohol. You might be well and truly into the silly season now, Christmas parties, festive lunches, New Years, all of that stuff, and how do you know if your relationship with alcohol is getting a bit out of control. One of the first episodes of MID I did because I knew this was a big topic for gen X women, was with Shana Juan from Sober in the Country, and I talked to her about her story about how she broke up with alcohol in midlife, how she did it, what her life's like now, what had brought her to that point, how do you know if you're drinking too much? It's a really important conversation. And look, if you want more Mid, jump over to the midfeed and there are plenty of episodes about all kinds of things that affect gen X women in that feed, and you can listen via the link in our show notes. Gen X grew up with the cool girls with the drink like the boys, girls with beers and bladders and big fruity cocktails, weekends of blurry bedtimes and painful mornings for what happened last night and examining mystery bruises through a thickening head. Our pinups weren't five am yoga girlies clutching smoothie. We swooned over Kate Moss slinking out from somewhere, drinking one hand, dart in the other, a footloose man at her side. We were messy, sometimes made some bad calls, perhaps woke up with the shame maybe, But that's what fun was, we thought. Then we grew up and there was wine o'clock and Hen's Nights and girls did and Margie's and it's definitely six o'clock somewhere, and pop a bottle and we get knocked down, but we get up again, and then we didn't really go out anymore. But the wine was still in the fridge. And maybe it gets you through those witching hours between five and seven, But then what then? Those hours can be hard and long without the fridge doors swinging open and the sound of the glug glug. Poor, best not think about it. Life's a lot. You deserve a little treat. And it's been the thing that's been there for you at all the big moments, hand in yours as you've grown up, a symbol of summer, of good times, of freedom and holidays and birthdays and christenings and Sunday afternoons just because. And then maybe yes, it's been there hand in yours, in the arguments that should never have been and that thing that you didn't mean to say to your kid, and the shortened temper and the messy memories that you've chased away. It was there at the breakup and on that night you did what you said you wouldn't, and that one your friends still talk about, and you wonder, I think I might have outgrown you alcohol. Why are you still here? Hello, and welcome to mid My name's Holly Wainwright and I am mid midlife, mid family, mid identity crisis. Look, we're here to have the conversations that interest Gen X women because we are anything but mid And the only conversations we've got time for are deep ones, helpful ones, ones that make us we a little bit because we're snort laughing so hard. All of that's okay. And today I'm having one of those kind of conversations with Shanna. One about Generation X is complicated relationship with alcohol. We drink more than the generation above and the generation below. And here's where I put up my hand and say that I am not sober. I am not a sober member of Generation X. Alcohol definitely plays a role in my life, as I say to Shanna, but she told me that ninety percent of the people who seek help from her organization sober in the country or women aged between forty and sixty.

That's us.

That's us.

Friends. You might have heard Shanna speak before on Australian Story or on MEA's No Filter. You might have seen her accepting an award for Australian of the Year, Local Hero or Mary Clare's Advocate of the Year. You might have even seen her representing Australia on the international stage at the funeral of the Queen of England. Because all of those things have happened, Shanna is a big deal in the sober world, not that you'd ever hear her saying that, because she took her own life experience as a former self described small town drunk and turned it into an organization that helps others. It was twenty fifteen when Shanna made the decision to give up drinking, a decision that she says saved her life, and she started Sober in the Country. It's a grassroots charity with a simple mission to ensure all our mates know that it's okay to say no to booze in the bush. And if you want to hear the whole story about how that happened, we'll put the link to Shanna's conversation on no Filter in the show notes. But if you're thinking, oh, this is going to be about people who live in the country, well it is, but not only because Shanner's messages about alcohol are very relevant and might resonate with you no matter where you are. Shanna, thank you so much for coming on to talk to us on mid I want to jump right in with this question, right, because I've been told that around eighty percent of the people who come to your peer support group, Sober in the Country are women age between forty and sixty. Is that true?

Friends. You might have heard Shanna speak before on Australian Story or on MEA's No Filter. You might have seen her accepting an award for Australian of the Year, Local Hero or Mary Clare's Advocate of the Year. You might have even seen her representing Australia on the international stage at the funeral of the Queen of England. Because all of those things have happened, Shanna is a big deal in the sober world, not that you'd ever hear her saying that, because she took her own life experience as a former self described small town drunk and turned it into an organization that helps others. It was twenty fifteen when Shanna made the decision to give up drinking, a decision that she says saved her life, and she started Sober in the Country. It's a grassroots charity with a simple mission to ensure all our mates know that it's okay to say no to booze in the bush. And if you want to hear the whole story about how that happened, we'll put the link to Shanna's conversation on no Filter in the show notes. But if you're thinking, oh, this is going to be about people who live in the country, well it is, but not only because Shanner's messages about alcohol are very relevant and might resonate with you no matter where you are. Shanna, thank you so much for coming on to talk to us on mid I want to jump right in with this question, right, because I've been told that around eighty percent of the people who come to your peer support group, Sober in the Country are women age between forty and sixty. Is that true?

It is true, Holly, it is and it's a statistic that never ceases to make me feel a bit sad. But yeah, my age group are the greatest portion of our peer support network, which we call the bush Tribe.

It is true, Holly, it is and it's a statistic that never ceases to make me feel a bit sad. But yeah, my age group are the greatest portion of our peer support network, which we call the bush Tribe.

Yeah, so tell me a little bit about the bush Tribe first, so that people can get a picture of what we're talking about. Give me a bit of a snapshot of what you've been doing for the past gosh, is it nine years now?

Yeah, so tell me a little bit about the bush Tribe first, so that people can get a picture of what we're talking about. Give me a bit of a snapshot of what you've been doing for the past gosh, is it nine years now?

It's heading towards ten years since I personally said see you later. Tabooze Sober in the Country was effectively registered as a national charity in late twenty nineteen after Australian Story did an episode on us. Myself is a human being. I've been having these conversations since twenty fifteen, and so yeah, we're heading on towards a decade.

It's heading towards ten years since I personally said see you later. Tabooze Sober in the Country was effectively registered as a national charity in late twenty nineteen after Australian Story did an episode on us. Myself is a human being. I've been having these conversations since twenty fifteen, and so yeah, we're heading on towards a decade.

Shanna, if you don't mind me asking how old were you in twenty fifteen?

Shanna, if you don't mind me asking how old were you in twenty fifteen?

When you oh, shivers, are you going to make me do that? I turned fifty pc years, so it.

When you oh, shivers, are you going to make me do that? I turned fifty pc years, so it.

Was around forty, around forty, yeah, around forty. Your own story also fits into this kind of demo of the forty to sixty year old women going hold on this is not working.

Was around forty, around forty, yeah, around forty. Your own story also fits into this kind of demo of the forty to sixty year old women going hold on this is not working.

It very much does. And as I read, and I've probably said forty eight million times, I share my own story of overcoming alcohol addiction and suffering from that battle, not because it's unique and not because I'm special, but precisely because of the opposite, because my story is horrifyingly, horrifyingly common, and it's especially horrifyingly common in my age group. So yeah, so to to go back and just I guess give you the blurb on the charity, so Sober in the Country is a bush charity and we exist to raise awareness and have conversations around alcohol heim in rural and remote Australia. And our primary purpose in a snapshot is to aim for a future rural Australia in which our mates know it's always okay to say no, thanks, no thanks, to be or not today right. Our okay to say no hashtag is what we roll out with. But of course, underneath that friendly, happy, very inclusive hashtag is a much small serious chat. Your listeners might be thinking, oh, well, I don't need to listen to this if it's about the bush. It's actually a universal chat. Alcohol harm is an issue globally and nationally. We just happen to focus on the rural sector. But this chat it's relevant to any of your listeners in that space.

It very much does. And as I read, and I've probably said forty eight million times, I share my own story of overcoming alcohol addiction and suffering from that battle, not because it's unique and not because I'm special, but precisely because of the opposite, because my story is horrifyingly, horrifyingly common, and it's especially horrifyingly common in my age group. So yeah, so to to go back and just I guess give you the blurb on the charity, so Sober in the Country is a bush charity and we exist to raise awareness and have conversations around alcohol heim in rural and remote Australia. And our primary purpose in a snapshot is to aim for a future rural Australia in which our mates know it's always okay to say no, thanks, no thanks, to be or not today right. Our okay to say no hashtag is what we roll out with. But of course, underneath that friendly, happy, very inclusive hashtag is a much small serious chat. Your listeners might be thinking, oh, well, I don't need to listen to this if it's about the bush. It's actually a universal chat. Alcohol harm is an issue globally and nationally. We just happen to focus on the rural sector. But this chat it's relevant to any of your listeners in that space.

Of course, when you talk about why you started sober in the country, you talk about obviously the isolation that people in the bush face when it comes to this, and the sometimes lack of resources. But drinking isolates a lot of people no matter where they are right So it's this thing of people feeling like they're struggling alone, even if they are right in the middle of the city. I know that everybody's story is individual, but as you've already said, your particular story and coming to ask for help when you're forty is quite typical. What's the kind of average reason that a woman in our age group finally goes it's time. I need to try and address this, because I've also heard you say that it can take twenty years for people to recognize that their relationship with alcohol is problematic. Could you pay me a bit of a picture of a kind of average story that might bring somebody to your door.

Of course, when you talk about why you started sober in the country, you talk about obviously the isolation that people in the bush face when it comes to this, and the sometimes lack of resources. But drinking isolates a lot of people no matter where they are right So it's this thing of people feeling like they're struggling alone, even if they are right in the middle of the city. I know that everybody's story is individual, but as you've already said, your particular story and coming to ask for help when you're forty is quite typical. What's the kind of average reason that a woman in our age group finally goes it's time. I need to try and address this, because I've also heard you say that it can take twenty years for people to recognize that their relationship with alcohol is problematic. Could you pay me a bit of a picture of a kind of average story that might bring somebody to your door.

Yeah, do you know what, I'll use myself as an example just because that way I can't get it wrong. But I am very typical, as we've discussed with my demographics. So Shannawan enters the world or back then, Shannon Rowlands enters the world bright eyed, bushy child. I've got the world at my feet. I've got a loving family in my case, which confuses a lot of people, right because they think the only people who can end up suicidal and almost dead from addiction are people who've had a rotten childhood. That's a common misnomer. In my eighteenth year, as we discuss and explore in Mamma Mea, I experience multiple sexual assaults and rape and trauma. So I turned to alcohol because it's prevalent, and it's abundant, and it's everywhere, and I learn very quickly if I have a few drinks, my inhibitions are dropped, My worries peer to go into a different realm where they're not, as you know, prevalent and ever constantine. Voila entering the era where I use alcohol to self medicate. But because I'm beautiful and I'm young and I'm perceived as a fun party girl. No one perceives or looks at that as a red flag or an issue because all of us in that age group are partying really really hard. Yes, I mean you know, like that's it was normal, wasn't it? It was normal?

Yeah, do you know what, I'll use myself as an example just because that way I can't get it wrong. But I am very typical, as we've discussed with my demographics. So Shannawan enters the world or back then, Shannon Rowlands enters the world bright eyed, bushy child. I've got the world at my feet. I've got a loving family in my case, which confuses a lot of people, right because they think the only people who can end up suicidal and almost dead from addiction are people who've had a rotten childhood. That's a common misnomer. In my eighteenth year, as we discuss and explore in Mamma Mea, I experience multiple sexual assaults and rape and trauma. So I turned to alcohol because it's prevalent, and it's abundant, and it's everywhere, and I learn very quickly if I have a few drinks, my inhibitions are dropped, My worries peer to go into a different realm where they're not, as you know, prevalent and ever constantine. Voila entering the era where I use alcohol to self medicate. But because I'm beautiful and I'm young and I'm perceived as a fun party girl. No one perceives or looks at that as a red flag or an issue because all of us in that age group are partying really really hard. Yes, I mean you know, like that's it was normal, wasn't it? It was normal?

And also I think that almost for our generation, because I think this is shifting happily. But it was almost like proving that you could party with the boys, whether that was in your setting in the bush, which is a very particular kind of testosterone fueled environment, but there are testosterone fueled environments everywhere, and certainly I grew up in a city in England and being able to drink with the boys and being able to drink like a bloke and being a good time party person was high status. Like it was whether or not you were doing it to cover up your own insecurities or to get past the trauma from it was kind of irrelevant. It was seen as a good time, So please go on. You were saying it was seen like it wasn't a pride.

And also I think that almost for our generation, because I think this is shifting happily. But it was almost like proving that you could party with the boys, whether that was in your setting in the bush, which is a very particular kind of testosterone fueled environment, but there are testosterone fueled environments everywhere, and certainly I grew up in a city in England and being able to drink with the boys and being able to drink like a bloke and being a good time party person was high status. Like it was whether or not you were doing it to cover up your own insecurities or to get past the trauma from it was kind of irrelevant. It was seen as a good time, So please go on. You were saying it was seen like it wasn't a pride.

It's a badge of honor, hey, isn't it. It's like right, So there's the trauma factor, there's that I'm trying to fit in in this extremely male dominated environment where no one's going to take me seriously. Maybe if I do this it'll help and fit it. You know, I can fit in exactly what you've just said. And so you look at a person who ends up in addiction and they don't wake up one day and think, you know what, I'd quite like to be that person who's on the edge of suicide and had enough with life and wants to check out. But that's where I was at age forty, and as I share anytime I do a keynote talk or do social media posts or whatever, this is a twenty year discent. It began here, but it ended there, and so is the complex nature of alcohol abuse, me huse and finally addiction. It's a sliding scale and it begins over here, but it ends there. And for me, I was in that absolute classic statistic of a person who took between eighteen and twenty years to seek support. And I believe that statistic is what it is because of what we've just discussed over here. It's seen as completely normal. But at the end, when you're the forty year old woman passing out at a dinner party or doing humiliating, you know, extremely embarrassing things in public. You're no longer able to slip under that radar of party girl, fun girl, because you're now you're now forty. It's not so funny anymore. It's actually embarrassing and noticeable, which in itself is a whole ridiculous issue of complexities, because it really is. It shouldn't be age relevant, should it.

It's a badge of honor, hey, isn't it. It's like right, So there's the trauma factor, there's that I'm trying to fit in in this extremely male dominated environment where no one's going to take me seriously. Maybe if I do this it'll help and fit it. You know, I can fit in exactly what you've just said. And so you look at a person who ends up in addiction and they don't wake up one day and think, you know what, I'd quite like to be that person who's on the edge of suicide and had enough with life and wants to check out. But that's where I was at age forty, and as I share anytime I do a keynote talk or do social media posts or whatever, this is a twenty year discent. It began here, but it ended there, and so is the complex nature of alcohol abuse, me huse and finally addiction. It's a sliding scale and it begins over here, but it ends there. And for me, I was in that absolute classic statistic of a person who took between eighteen and twenty years to seek support. And I believe that statistic is what it is because of what we've just discussed over here. It's seen as completely normal. But at the end, when you're the forty year old woman passing out at a dinner party or doing humiliating, you know, extremely embarrassing things in public. You're no longer able to slip under that radar of party girl, fun girl, because you're now you're now forty. It's not so funny anymore. It's actually embarrassing and noticeable, which in itself is a whole ridiculous issue of complexities, because it really is. It shouldn't be age relevant, should it.

It's kind of like it's not cute anymore, Like it was cute there for a while, but now it's like, oh, we should be worried about her. And if you throw in that often, you know, for a lot of us, these issues can they might take you through motherhood or marriage or divorce or whatever. You know, you're kind of juggling these things, but the alcohol use is still there. I wanted to ask you the idea that it takes between eighteen twenty years, and as you say that where you may end up might be somewhere quite extreme.

It's kind of like it's not cute anymore, Like it was cute there for a while, but now it's like, oh, we should be worried about her. And if you throw in that often, you know, for a lot of us, these issues can they might take you through motherhood or marriage or divorce or whatever. You know, you're kind of juggling these things, but the alcohol use is still there. I wanted to ask you the idea that it takes between eighteen twenty years, and as you say that where you may end up might be somewhere quite extreme.

But for some women it's not.

But for some women it's not.

Necessarily that they're at a very extreme end, but it's that they're unable to let go of that crutch. And yes, I know that in your conversation with me, you do talk about a rock bottom moment for you that brought you to the point where you were like, this time, I have.

Necessarily that they're at a very extreme end, but it's that they're unable to let go of that crutch. And yes, I know that in your conversation with me, you do talk about a rock bottom moment for you that brought you to the point where you were like, this time, I have.

To get help or I die.

To get help or I die.

Yes, do you think and does your experience talking to women about this is that What is the usual catalyst for somebody putting their hand up in this age bracket and going, actually, I've got to change this or can it sometimes be something less dramatic?

Yes, do you think and does your experience talking to women about this is that What is the usual catalyst for somebody putting their hand up in this age bracket and going, actually, I've got to change this or can it sometimes be something less dramatic?

Thank you so much for raising that. Holy it's such a great question. It can be one hundred things at any given point in time. One of the most difficult aspects of raising conversations around alcohol harm and addiction is this pervasive message that we are fed that the only reason you should ever quit alcohol is if you are someone in addiction or you've had a rock bottom crisis moment. And that is such rubbish. That is such a lie that we are fed from society. So my answer to that is no, and happily and thank god for advocates like me or other charities or other social media influencers. There are women across the globe and rural Australia and inner city Australia who are now going Wow, thanks to that awareness, that education, that information and that stuff that is really resonating with me. I'm going to have a good hard look at where I'm at with my drinking. And I'm not in a rock bottom se scenario. But when I think about it, and when I'm really honest about it, I can't actually finish my workday without having one or two big glasses of wine. Holy crap? Is that a thing? Is that a problem? I don't know. And what's so interesting about all the conversations we've generated is that those people who've had the capacity to have a really good, honest look at their relationship with alcohol, they're going, I actually don't know how to do life without alcohol. Whether it's one glass or one bottle or three bottles, as was my case, doesn't matter if alcohol is not serving your family, your health, your relationships, your finances, your work life, balance, your whatever. And if it's an issue, it's an issue, it doesn't have to be a rock bottom moment. And so I would hazard a guess, Holly, that historically we only looked at it when it was a rock bottom crisis moment, because historically we've had this booze worshiping mentality in Australia where you are a legend if you're Holly or Shanna and you can drink two bottles of wine without going into a coma. Or you're the blokeout in the backyards at the cattle station who can sink a bottle of rump and still be upright and chase a beast. It's ridiculous, right. We just have this hero worship of grog that has meant people didn't seek help before because it.

Thank you so much for raising that. Holy it's such a great question. It can be one hundred things at any given point in time. One of the most difficult aspects of raising conversations around alcohol harm and addiction is this pervasive message that we are fed that the only reason you should ever quit alcohol is if you are someone in addiction or you've had a rock bottom crisis moment. And that is such rubbish. That is such a lie that we are fed from society. So my answer to that is no, and happily and thank god for advocates like me or other charities or other social media influencers. There are women across the globe and rural Australia and inner city Australia who are now going Wow, thanks to that awareness, that education, that information and that stuff that is really resonating with me. I'm going to have a good hard look at where I'm at with my drinking. And I'm not in a rock bottom se scenario. But when I think about it, and when I'm really honest about it, I can't actually finish my workday without having one or two big glasses of wine. Holy crap? Is that a thing? Is that a problem? I don't know. And what's so interesting about all the conversations we've generated is that those people who've had the capacity to have a really good, honest look at their relationship with alcohol, they're going, I actually don't know how to do life without alcohol. Whether it's one glass or one bottle or three bottles, as was my case, doesn't matter if alcohol is not serving your family, your health, your relationships, your finances, your work life, balance, your whatever. And if it's an issue, it's an issue, it doesn't have to be a rock bottom moment. And so I would hazard a guess, Holly, that historically we only looked at it when it was a rock bottom crisis moment, because historically we've had this booze worshiping mentality in Australia where you are a legend if you're Holly or Shanna and you can drink two bottles of wine without going into a coma. Or you're the blokeout in the backyards at the cattle station who can sink a bottle of rump and still be upright and chase a beast. It's ridiculous, right. We just have this hero worship of grog that has meant people didn't seek help before because it.

Was you know, it's interesting, isn't it, Because it's complicated, that hero worship, because as you've said about the party girl and how there's a tipping point where she's no longer to be celebrated but to be kind of pitied and denigrated and maybe taken advantage of where there are points in our life where we shift, so you can move from party girl to like the mummy wine time idea. And I'd love to explore that a bit because what I noticed very much in my peer group, and I want to be really honest here, I am not sober. I do drink. I don't drink to excess, but it is part of my social life, there is no question about that. And so one of my interests in exploring this is that idea of because there's all of my peer group around me. We have all grown up with alcohol being part of our identity because we're part of that binge drinking culture, and we're all sort of stepping back and questioning it a bit now and going, oh, what does it look like without it? But once you've moved out of party girl, sometimes what slips in there is wine o' clock. Right, you're not going out anymore necessarily, But maybe it's the big glass of wine that helps you get the kids into the bath or whatever, or it's the big glass of wine that is that. And I know that I've had to unpick this that there is the marcation point between work day or parenting day and me time, relaxed time is a glass of wine.

Was you know, it's interesting, isn't it, Because it's complicated, that hero worship, because as you've said about the party girl and how there's a tipping point where she's no longer to be celebrated but to be kind of pitied and denigrated and maybe taken advantage of where there are points in our life where we shift, so you can move from party girl to like the mummy wine time idea. And I'd love to explore that a bit because what I noticed very much in my peer group, and I want to be really honest here, I am not sober. I do drink. I don't drink to excess, but it is part of my social life, there is no question about that. And so one of my interests in exploring this is that idea of because there's all of my peer group around me. We have all grown up with alcohol being part of our identity because we're part of that binge drinking culture, and we're all sort of stepping back and questioning it a bit now and going, oh, what does it look like without it? But once you've moved out of party girl, sometimes what slips in there is wine o' clock. Right, you're not going out anymore necessarily, But maybe it's the big glass of wine that helps you get the kids into the bath or whatever, or it's the big glass of wine that is that. And I know that I've had to unpick this that there is the marcation point between work day or parenting day and me time, relaxed time is a glass of wine.

Right.

Right.

Do you think that the way that we talk about that, and the memes and the jokes and their mummy juice glasses that you can get and all that kind of stuff, do you think that's almost as pun It's just as dangerous as the kind of you idolizing the footballer who can down twenty five beers on a flight kind of drinking culture.

Do you think that the way that we talk about that, and the memes and the jokes and their mummy juice glasses that you can get and all that kind of stuff, do you think that's almost as pun It's just as dangerous as the kind of you idolizing the footballer who can down twenty five beers on a flight kind of drinking culture.

You know what, I'll just chuck it in here that neither myself nor sober in the country. Are anti alcohol prohibitionists in our approach? Right? My husband drinks a beer. He loves a beer. He's one of these magical, bizarre humans who can have one or two drinks and leave it at that. Oh my god, I don't know how people do it. Right. So anyway, I don't believe in prohibition as effective. I don't think it's ever gonna work if we go at things with extremes. So anyway, that's that out of the way. So I don't judge you, and I don't judge you. I don't judge anyone else. However, I am always asking whether it's through again as myself as a human, or through our social media. I'm always saying and challenging people. Can we not glorify deadly drinking? Please? Can we not do that with our social media? I'll give you a class example, Holly. There's this trend that I don't know if it's been and gone or if it's still happening, but you know, there's massive Stanley sippy cups and people make a meme where they pour at least a bottle of wine into a monstrous cup. They cut a tea bag string, right, and drop it and so that they're pretending they're having a cuppa, And then the meme is that they're at kids sport while not sacrificing mummy juice or mummy wine. And I've got to tell you, everything in me just wants to curl up and die, and I just find myself going, please don't. And the worst thing is I got to stick my own hand in there and say, that is exactly what I would have perpetuated once upon a time. Once upon a time, I was the human who if someone else sat down next to me and said, no thanks, I'm right, I would have said, what you're not drinking? What's wrong with you? Are you pregnant? Have you got a problem? I was that ignorant person, and I in that and I totally claim it because it's exactly what I did. And I had no clue at the time how pernicious and how much of the culture of idolizing alcohol that was feeding into and so on the other side of that fence. And when I see, like, I'm okay, I haven't wanted a drink in ten years, What a bloody beautiful thing that is. I don't care about it, don't think about it, don't want it, donate it. I could never do this job if that was the torture I lived daily. What I do know, though, is that there are people who do live with that hell and that torture daily. So imagine, imagine one of your best mates in your mummy circle is having a silent and deadly battle and is quietly attending say AA meetings in city and then going to soccer on a weekend and having this shoved in their face twenty four to seven. Those are the people I think of when I see those memes that I just I just feel so bloody sad. And I know the intent isn't evil and bad and dreadful. I know that I get that, But regardless, the knock on effect of that worshiping and the sharing of those memes buy some really high level influences. It is contributing to harm and there's no question about it. So what do we do? How do we change it?

You know what, I'll just chuck it in here that neither myself nor sober in the country. Are anti alcohol prohibitionists in our approach? Right? My husband drinks a beer. He loves a beer. He's one of these magical, bizarre humans who can have one or two drinks and leave it at that. Oh my god, I don't know how people do it. Right. So anyway, I don't believe in prohibition as effective. I don't think it's ever gonna work if we go at things with extremes. So anyway, that's that out of the way. So I don't judge you, and I don't judge you. I don't judge anyone else. However, I am always asking whether it's through again as myself as a human, or through our social media. I'm always saying and challenging people. Can we not glorify deadly drinking? Please? Can we not do that with our social media? I'll give you a class example, Holly. There's this trend that I don't know if it's been and gone or if it's still happening, but you know, there's massive Stanley sippy cups and people make a meme where they pour at least a bottle of wine into a monstrous cup. They cut a tea bag string, right, and drop it and so that they're pretending they're having a cuppa, And then the meme is that they're at kids sport while not sacrificing mummy juice or mummy wine. And I've got to tell you, everything in me just wants to curl up and die, and I just find myself going, please don't. And the worst thing is I got to stick my own hand in there and say, that is exactly what I would have perpetuated once upon a time. Once upon a time, I was the human who if someone else sat down next to me and said, no thanks, I'm right, I would have said, what you're not drinking? What's wrong with you? Are you pregnant? Have you got a problem? I was that ignorant person, and I in that and I totally claim it because it's exactly what I did. And I had no clue at the time how pernicious and how much of the culture of idolizing alcohol that was feeding into and so on the other side of that fence. And when I see, like, I'm okay, I haven't wanted a drink in ten years, What a bloody beautiful thing that is. I don't care about it, don't think about it, don't want it, donate it. I could never do this job if that was the torture I lived daily. What I do know, though, is that there are people who do live with that hell and that torture daily. So imagine, imagine one of your best mates in your mummy circle is having a silent and deadly battle and is quietly attending say AA meetings in city and then going to soccer on a weekend and having this shoved in their face twenty four to seven. Those are the people I think of when I see those memes that I just I just feel so bloody sad. And I know the intent isn't evil and bad and dreadful. I know that I get that, But regardless, the knock on effect of that worshiping and the sharing of those memes buy some really high level influences. It is contributing to harm and there's no question about it. So what do we do? How do we change it?

I wanted to know how you know if you've got a problem with alcohol, particularly when wine culture is everywhere around you telling you it's normal, that's coming up after the break, if you are struggling, Because we've already discussed this for most of us, it might take a long time for us to because you say, and I heard you talk to me about this, that for ten years now, since you've become sober, as you say, you haven't been battling with it, but you battled for twenty years, like as in battling with the urge that you battled for twenty years before that. Right, So, people who are questioning their drinking or realizing that it's making their life hard, but they're kind of trying to picture what life might look like on the other side. And I really want to talk to you about that in a minute. If they're seeing everywhere around them and I'm sure that I'm guilty of this in my social circle. Oh I really need a wine. Oh time to you know the mummy paw that's this big and all those things. It's like, oh, okay, maybe I don't have a problem. Maybe it's all fine. Maybe everybody's like this. It's like a because you're always in a battle of justification, right with your own behaviors that you kind of know deep down are not serving you anymore, but you're looking for validation at every turn.

I wanted to know how you know if you've got a problem with alcohol, particularly when wine culture is everywhere around you telling you it's normal, that's coming up after the break, if you are struggling, Because we've already discussed this for most of us, it might take a long time for us to because you say, and I heard you talk to me about this, that for ten years now, since you've become sober, as you say, you haven't been battling with it, but you battled for twenty years, like as in battling with the urge that you battled for twenty years before that. Right, So, people who are questioning their drinking or realizing that it's making their life hard, but they're kind of trying to picture what life might look like on the other side. And I really want to talk to you about that in a minute. If they're seeing everywhere around them and I'm sure that I'm guilty of this in my social circle. Oh I really need a wine. Oh time to you know the mummy paw that's this big and all those things. It's like, oh, okay, maybe I don't have a problem. Maybe it's all fine. Maybe everybody's like this. It's like a because you're always in a battle of justification, right with your own behaviors that you kind of know deep down are not serving you anymore, but you're looking for validation at every turn.

Yeah. Absolutely, And that's such a common thing. Something that's really encouraging. That I would love your listeners to understand is that when we all choose to make the smallest changes, you will see me bang on about these through our socials as well. We're not anti alcohol, we're just anti alcohol harm. And when we make small changes, whether it's through social media or for instance, here's an example, Let's say Ladies Day at the Rugby is coming, almost inevitably, what we will see is an invitation that's gets dropped into the stratosphere that says all you can drink tickets two hundred dollars, blah blah blah. When we see a change as simple as drinks tickets two hundred dollars, non alcoholic options fifty five dollars or one hundred dollars or whatever the hell it might be, there's suddenly there's this inclusion for a non drinker. How powerful, how simple, how effective? But because once again, at a societal level, at almost every turn, it's in our faces that the expectation is holy and Shanner and every single person is drinking, drinking, drinking, drinking. When you're the one not drinking, you feel like an absolute friggin weirdo, and you already are struggling with this battle, as you said before, and for some people it's been going on for a decade and they're still working it out and they're floundering and they're struggling. And instead of of having people at every corner trying to metaphorically jam alcohol down our necks, if we've got leaders and people and influencers saying if you're not drinking, it's okay, it's okay to say no, it's all good. Have one of these, have a zero ol beer or have a sparkling water. Suddenly that terror that I'm feeling as a human contemplating where I'm at is massively reduced, and it's normalized, and there's just so many ways we can make positive inroads.

Yeah. Absolutely, And that's such a common thing. Something that's really encouraging. That I would love your listeners to understand is that when we all choose to make the smallest changes, you will see me bang on about these through our socials as well. We're not anti alcohol, we're just anti alcohol harm. And when we make small changes, whether it's through social media or for instance, here's an example, Let's say Ladies Day at the Rugby is coming, almost inevitably, what we will see is an invitation that's gets dropped into the stratosphere that says all you can drink tickets two hundred dollars, blah blah blah. When we see a change as simple as drinks tickets two hundred dollars, non alcoholic options fifty five dollars or one hundred dollars or whatever the hell it might be, there's suddenly there's this inclusion for a non drinker. How powerful, how simple, how effective? But because once again, at a societal level, at almost every turn, it's in our faces that the expectation is holy and Shanner and every single person is drinking, drinking, drinking, drinking. When you're the one not drinking, you feel like an absolute friggin weirdo, and you already are struggling with this battle, as you said before, and for some people it's been going on for a decade and they're still working it out and they're floundering and they're struggling. And instead of of having people at every corner trying to metaphorically jam alcohol down our necks, if we've got leaders and people and influencers saying if you're not drinking, it's okay, it's okay to say no, it's all good. Have one of these, have a zero ol beer or have a sparkling water. Suddenly that terror that I'm feeling as a human contemplating where I'm at is massively reduced, and it's normalized, and there's just so many ways we can make positive inroads.

That's a really interesting point about things like that. It's like, if it's right from the get go, or you cannot drink, and it's this one hundred percent. And it's interesting because I think generations younger than us a nailing this. You know, they're saying that non alcoholic drinks is the fastest growing sector and all that stuff.

That's a really interesting point about things like that. It's like, if it's right from the get go, or you cannot drink, and it's this one hundred percent. And it's interesting because I think generations younger than us a nailing this. You know, they're saying that non alcoholic drinks is the fastest growing sector and all that stuff.

Can I quickly add if someone is in the contemplation phase, they're reducing them moderating their switching drinks whatever whatever you mentioned earlier, Holly, and I think this is a super important one. To have alcohol free or zero elk beer, wine and spirits. Can you please just be super careful with those if that's your choice. And I say that because those of us who've battled and are at the more problematic addiction stage of alcohol, right when we're consuming things that replicate perfectly the taste and the smell and the ritual of alcohol at five pm, where do you reckon? That can go very very quickly. So just be really mindful of falling for the marketing behind those drinks, which is extremely cleverly designed to say, if you're chasing some moderation, do this, try that, do this, Just be super careful of replicating alcohol.

Can I quickly add if someone is in the contemplation phase, they're reducing them moderating their switching drinks whatever whatever you mentioned earlier, Holly, and I think this is a super important one. To have alcohol free or zero elk beer, wine and spirits. Can you please just be super careful with those if that's your choice. And I say that because those of us who've battled and are at the more problematic addiction stage of alcohol, right when we're consuming things that replicate perfectly the taste and the smell and the ritual of alcohol at five pm, where do you reckon? That can go very very quickly. So just be really mindful of falling for the marketing behind those drinks, which is extremely cleverly designed to say, if you're chasing some moderation, do this, try that, do this, Just be super careful of replicating alcohol.

Do they have a place in helping you in a social transition? Do you think, I mean some people, for some people who have that kind of issue of I'm standing around at a barbecue, at least I've got a drink in my hand.

Do they have a place in helping you in a social transition? Do you think, I mean some people, for some people who have that kind of issue of I'm standing around at a barbecue, at least I've got a drink in my hand.

They absolutely do for some And so the whole thing with the spectrum of alcohol addiction, zero ELK drinks, etc. There's no black and white. There's only a million shades of gray. I could tell you firsthand of endless stories of people who are at that other problematic end towards you know, the chronic addiction, end stage addiction, and they've turned to zero elk imitation drinks and they've had a relapse that they haven't come back from. They're really, really, really problematic in that regard. They have a place for some Absolutely they really do. If in doubt have a sparkling soda, water and lemon. Don't go near stuff that imitates alcohol is just it can be very, very dangerous. I'm ten years in and I will not touch them with a barge pole. Absolutely will not go near them.

They absolutely do for some And so the whole thing with the spectrum of alcohol addiction, zero ELK drinks, etc. There's no black and white. There's only a million shades of gray. I could tell you firsthand of endless stories of people who are at that other problematic end towards you know, the chronic addiction, end stage addiction, and they've turned to zero elk imitation drinks and they've had a relapse that they haven't come back from. They're really, really, really problematic in that regard. They have a place for some Absolutely they really do. If in doubt have a sparkling soda, water and lemon. Don't go near stuff that imitates alcohol is just it can be very, very dangerous. I'm ten years in and I will not touch them with a barge pole. Absolutely will not go near them.

Seana, if someone's listening to this and they know that their relationship with alcohol is tipping or has tipped into unhealthy territory, and they're saying to themselves, but you know, I can do dry July if I have to, or I don't drink Monday to Wednesday, or I don't or you know, I only drink blood. You know, I think we put a lot of excuses justifications things around our drinking, even if we deep down know We've talked about how there's a sort of a spectrum, but is there a question you should ask yourself to know whether or not you do need to put your hand up for help? Or is it not that simple?

Seana, if someone's listening to this and they know that their relationship with alcohol is tipping or has tipped into unhealthy territory, and they're saying to themselves, but you know, I can do dry July if I have to, or I don't drink Monday to Wednesday, or I don't or you know, I only drink blood. You know, I think we put a lot of excuses justifications things around our drinking, even if we deep down know We've talked about how there's a sort of a spectrum, but is there a question you should ask yourself to know whether or not you do need to put your hand up for help? Or is it not that simple?

Do you know what I used to do? I used to google? Am I an alcohol?

Do you know what I used to do? I used to google? Am I an alcohol?

About a lot of people listening to this A.

About a lot of people listening to this A.

Lot of people, right, I'll tell you the litmus test, Holly. That seems to be pretty fail proof. If you think there's a problem, there's probably a problem.

Lot of people, right, I'll tell you the litmus test, Holly. That seems to be pretty fail proof. If you think there's a problem, there's probably a problem.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Honestly, people without an issue or problem with alcohol don't ask themselves if they have a problem or an issue with alcohol. It's that simple.

Honestly, people without an issue or problem with alcohol don't ask themselves if they have a problem or an issue with alcohol. It's that simple.

If you're in your forties fifties and you're realizing that you need to address alcohol, likely alcohol has been part of your identity, as we've already discussed in various ways, whether that's party girl, mum culture, whatever, it is wine time for a long time. And one of the things that I know to be true is this thing of like, but who am I without drinking?

If you're in your forties fifties and you're realizing that you need to address alcohol, likely alcohol has been part of your identity, as we've already discussed in various ways, whether that's party girl, mum culture, whatever, it is wine time for a long time. And one of the things that I know to be true is this thing of like, but who am I without drinking?

Like?

Like?

How do I celebrate without drinking? Alcohol has been with me at every birthday, party, every wedding, every summer holiday. You know, it's like it's become in our culture and in some other cultures around the world, it's synonymous with celebration, with relaxation, with having good time. And I imagine that this must be particularly tricky in the bush in a way because pubs are kind of like the community center, aren't they. They're like, they're the place where everybody goes. It's where you meet people, it's where everybody connects. So what do you say to people who are struggling with that thing of like, but who even am I if I'm not drinking? And can I be in the world?

How do I celebrate without drinking? Alcohol has been with me at every birthday, party, every wedding, every summer holiday. You know, it's like it's become in our culture and in some other cultures around the world, it's synonymous with celebration, with relaxation, with having good time. And I imagine that this must be particularly tricky in the bush in a way because pubs are kind of like the community center, aren't they. They're like, they're the place where everybody goes. It's where you meet people, it's where everybody connects. So what do you say to people who are struggling with that thing of like, but who even am I if I'm not drinking? And can I be in the world?

So I'm going to tackle this one as a city versus rural issue because this is where the really obvious gap happens. So let's say you, as Holly, decide you're going to become a human who doesn't drink, and you have the option. Let's say if you're in let's say you're in Bondi or inner city Sydney, right, and it's weird for you in your yoga class or your surfing group, or your book club or whatever. Course, everyone's a raging piss head book.

So I'm going to tackle this one as a city versus rural issue because this is where the really obvious gap happens. So let's say you, as Holly, decide you're going to become a human who doesn't drink, and you have the option. Let's say if you're in let's say you're in Bondi or inner city Sydney, right, and it's weird for you in your yoga class or your surfing group, or your book club or whatever. Course, everyone's a raging piss head book.

Clubs, right, and that's another place where everyone goes, Oh you mean wine club.

Clubs, right, and that's another place where everyone goes, Oh you mean wine club.

Like, yeah, exactly exactly. So Holly decides, you know what, I actually can't do this because there's too much grog. In all of these situations, the beauty is you might be able to go one suburb over and find a new surf club, a new book club, a new yoga class. You might actually be able to find this plethora of face to face recovery support meetings because you're in the city where there is such a notion as anonymity. Praise be how wonderful you suddenly have choices, services, support, options, connection. Now let's take case studies Shannawan, a woman who has indeed had alcohol heart and soul and center of her identity, her whole life as the wild party girl. Who is she without alcohol? Well, bloody good question. I'm still figuring that out ten years down the track. And what I will tell you is it in rural and regional and even some of our bigger regional cities, right, it is an incredibly difficult journey for people because we do not have the option of being anonymous. We do not have the option of changing our crowd, our gathering places, our friends groups, our schools, yoga classes. Whatever. What you get is what you get, and you've got it for life. And so you have to learn to be a sober human in that environment, or you can pack up and start a brand new life somewhere else. Those are your two options.

Like, yeah, exactly exactly. So Holly decides, you know what, I actually can't do this because there's too much grog. In all of these situations, the beauty is you might be able to go one suburb over and find a new surf club, a new book club, a new yoga class. You might actually be able to find this plethora of face to face recovery support meetings because you're in the city where there is such a notion as anonymity. Praise be how wonderful you suddenly have choices, services, support, options, connection. Now let's take case studies Shannawan, a woman who has indeed had alcohol heart and soul and center of her identity, her whole life as the wild party girl. Who is she without alcohol? Well, bloody good question. I'm still figuring that out ten years down the track. And what I will tell you is it in rural and regional and even some of our bigger regional cities, right, it is an incredibly difficult journey for people because we do not have the option of being anonymous. We do not have the option of changing our crowd, our gathering places, our friends groups, our schools, yoga classes. Whatever. What you get is what you get, and you've got it for life. And so you have to learn to be a sober human in that environment, or you can pack up and start a brand new life somewhere else. Those are your two options.

I've heard you call that pulling a geographical.

I've heard you call that pulling a geographical.

Pulling a geographical right, and that's really not ideal, and it breaks my heart that that should even be away. Someone has to learn to deal with this. But I've seen it happen because a person newly sober is struggling so badly to find their feet and be accepted now as a non drinking person, that they go this is so hard. I'm just going to start again. And I have to confess that when I gave up alcohol, I said to my husband, mate, I need to leave this town. I need to leave this place. I got to go. I gotta go. I just don't want to be here anymore because everyone thinks this, and everyone's been gossiping about me anyway, and you know, God Almighty, the things that I heard about myself, and it's pretty hardcore.

Pulling a geographical right, and that's really not ideal, and it breaks my heart that that should even be away. Someone has to learn to deal with this. But I've seen it happen because a person newly sober is struggling so badly to find their feet and be accepted now as a non drinking person, that they go this is so hard. I'm just going to start again. And I have to confess that when I gave up alcohol, I said to my husband, mate, I need to leave this town. I need to leave this place. I got to go. I gotta go. I just don't want to be here anymore because everyone thinks this, and everyone's been gossiping about me anyway, and you know, God Almighty, the things that I heard about myself, and it's pretty hardcore.

It must be terrible. And also all those people are still there, and they've got a picture in the head of who you are, and you've got to almost convince them or yourself that you're not that person anymore.

It must be terrible. And also all those people are still there, and they've got a picture in the head of who you are, and you've got to almost convince them or yourself that you're not that person anymore.

And my beautiful, beautiful, wise husband said to me, sweetheart, you've been running from yourself and doing geographicals your whole life. You have to face yourself. God damn it. That so annoying and so wise. I'm not saying that's the anset for everyone, but that was what we decided to do, and it was an easy holly for me to face my community that i'd been. I mean, here's the irony. I mean, I was the person everyone shouted drinks to because I performed like a monkey. Yeah, And that was all fun and games, wasn't it. But when it was a problem, I was mocked and shunned and talked about. And that's the paradox of what happens with drinkers. We're funny one minute and we're ostracized the next. And crueler again is that we can be ostracized further socially and not just geographically, because we've chosen to be so bad. And that's uncomfortable because in rural communities people are massive, massive drinkers, and they don't know what to do with me. I don't want to sound like I'm full of myself here. That's the last thing I ever want to sound like. But I would like to think that the advocacy that I have been doing in the rural space has provided a beacon. I guess for a lot of women who've come after me to know how to navigate is to better manage that situation, because it is brutal and it's really really hard. And I can say, hand on heart it is easier for those who've come behind because a decade of sober in the country and conversations and then of course Australian of the Year and Marie Claire stuff and whatnot, there's been a lot of media, there's been a lot of publicity in our message has been heard nationally and so thank God for that because my only wish ever has been that someone someone else like me, would not go through the hell I've experienced in becoming sober in the country.

And my beautiful, beautiful, wise husband said to me, sweetheart, you've been running from yourself and doing geographicals your whole life. You have to face yourself. God damn it. That so annoying and so wise. I'm not saying that's the anset for everyone, but that was what we decided to do, and it was an easy holly for me to face my community that i'd been. I mean, here's the irony. I mean, I was the person everyone shouted drinks to because I performed like a monkey. Yeah, And that was all fun and games, wasn't it. But when it was a problem, I was mocked and shunned and talked about. And that's the paradox of what happens with drinkers. We're funny one minute and we're ostracized the next. And crueler again is that we can be ostracized further socially and not just geographically, because we've chosen to be so bad. And that's uncomfortable because in rural communities people are massive, massive drinkers, and they don't know what to do with me. I don't want to sound like I'm full of myself here. That's the last thing I ever want to sound like. But I would like to think that the advocacy that I have been doing in the rural space has provided a beacon. I guess for a lot of women who've come after me to know how to navigate is to better manage that situation, because it is brutal and it's really really hard. And I can say, hand on heart it is easier for those who've come behind because a decade of sober in the country and conversations and then of course Australian of the Year and Marie Claire stuff and whatnot, there's been a lot of media, there's been a lot of publicity in our message has been heard nationally and so thank God for that because my only wish ever has been that someone someone else like me, would not go through the hell I've experienced in becoming sober in the country.

All Right, so maybe you've decided you do need to do something about your drinking, but I want to know what that looks like on the other side. If alcohol has always been your fun, your socializing, your release, your coping mechanism, how does life work without it? That's coming up next? Has it changed? Like obviously you know that the work that you've done has changed it for people come behind you, But you now living almost a decade as the sober person, do you still have to struggle with all that stuff in terms of other people's perceptions or have people Because what I'm thinking about is a woman listening to this who's imagining her social life and her social group and her whether it's in the country, whether it's in the city, small town, whatever, and she's thinking it's going to be so hard. Does it get easier? Do people give you a frickin' break after a while and support you rather than make things harder.

All Right, so maybe you've decided you do need to do something about your drinking, but I want to know what that looks like on the other side. If alcohol has always been your fun, your socializing, your release, your coping mechanism, how does life work without it? That's coming up next? Has it changed? Like obviously you know that the work that you've done has changed it for people come behind you, But you now living almost a decade as the sober person, do you still have to struggle with all that stuff in terms of other people's perceptions or have people Because what I'm thinking about is a woman listening to this who's imagining her social life and her social group and her whether it's in the country, whether it's in the city, small town, whatever, and she's thinking it's going to be so hard. Does it get easier? Do people give you a frickin' break after a while and support you rather than make things harder.

What we hear again and again and again through the eight hundred people, just even in our peer support network, those who get some runs on the board and get a year or two under their belt, the common refrain is it gets easier. Hang in there, have hope, don't give up, because what eventually happens. And I'll tell you what if you ever want to know, if you ever want to know who you're truest, truest friends are get sober, Get sober, and watch what happens. And again I'll use myself as an example. I am a case in point. Very quickly, once we choose sobriety, two things happen our friends and families and those who really do care about our welfare, our mental health and us as humans can do nothing but get around us and support us quickly because they're so relieved that we're seeking to change, right, because most of us who give up had an unhealthy thing going on, or in my case, we were at absolute rock bottom, whatever end of the spectrum it is. When people see someone trying to do something to better their health, their circumstances, whatever, true friends wrap around. Right. Often big drinking buddies and those upon who we relied on to just have big drinking sessions and no meaningful, real interaction beyond just getting on the source, they drop away. And at first that hurts because we used to think upon those groups as our friends. But it's pretty evident quickly that that friendship group was actually based on nothing more than just getting drunk. Yes, there's nothing meaningful behind it, and that's pretty brutal and confronting once you're seeing the truth of that. But myself and many many many before and after me, have seen quickly that wow, they were not my mates.

What we hear again and again and again through the eight hundred people, just even in our peer support network, those who get some runs on the board and get a year or two under their belt, the common refrain is it gets easier. Hang in there, have hope, don't give up, because what eventually happens. And I'll tell you what if you ever want to know, if you ever want to know who you're truest, truest friends are get sober, Get sober, and watch what happens. And again I'll use myself as an example. I am a case in point. Very quickly, once we choose sobriety, two things happen our friends and families and those who really do care about our welfare, our mental health and us as humans can do nothing but get around us and support us quickly because they're so relieved that we're seeking to change, right, because most of us who give up had an unhealthy thing going on, or in my case, we were at absolute rock bottom, whatever end of the spectrum it is. When people see someone trying to do something to better their health, their circumstances, whatever, true friends wrap around. Right. Often big drinking buddies and those upon who we relied on to just have big drinking sessions and no meaningful, real interaction beyond just getting on the source, they drop away. And at first that hurts because we used to think upon those groups as our friends. But it's pretty evident quickly that that friendship group was actually based on nothing more than just getting drunk. Yes, there's nothing meaningful behind it, and that's pretty brutal and confronting once you're seeing the truth of that. But myself and many many many before and after me, have seen quickly that wow, they were not my mates.

You know that is so relevant, This idea that like, but this is what me and my friends do. We get together and we drink and that's what we do, right, And I think a lot of women don't necessarily mean me. I mean this is but although sometimes indeed we do. But the idea that what would we do without? Is there fun to be had? Can life still be fun in midlife? With our alcohol shower.

You know that is so relevant, This idea that like, but this is what me and my friends do. We get together and we drink and that's what we do, right, And I think a lot of women don't necessarily mean me. I mean this is but although sometimes indeed we do. But the idea that what would we do without? Is there fun to be had? Can life still be fun in midlife? With our alcohol shower.

Bloody oath? It can be? Holly? Do you know what? Oh my god? And again I'll use our group as a reference point. I mean, we see people dropping comments and they might have been struggling for a couple of years, and eventually when they come through the hard slog, and there is a hard slog for a lot of these people, it's rarely an overnight, you know, transition, right, But when they come out the other side of all that hardship, people are suddenly going, oh my god, you guys, It's been two years since I've had a drink, and I've saved like god knows how many tens of thousands of dollars and I've started running. And guess what my kids think. I'm an awesome mum because I'm present and i am here and I'm available and I'm not useless every Sunday. I shouldn't say that as though every mummy is that it hasn't dream right, you know what I'm saying. I'm speaking generally. Or we see dads dropping in and saying I've lost my beer gut and I've got a six pack, and my wife reckons I'm the shes look at me, go it's gorgeous. We see so many beautiful, beautiful stories of families restored, health, restored, lives actually restored. And I feel like I sound like an evangelist here, but I feel like an evangelists sometimes. I want to stand on the top of the mountain and say, you guys, you don't understand. What's on the other side is amazing. There's happiness, there's clarity, there's presence of mind. Yeah, there's fitness. There's all of these wonderful, wonderful things. I think that in sobriety circles what can happen is because there is so much hardship and that a focus on the bad things and the rock bottom, that we forget the magical moments that come. I have to tell you, whenever I do a keynote, I always finish with that point and I say, you know, for magical Unicorn was to land on my shoulder and say, Shanna, wan, I grant thee the wish to drink like a normal human from henceforth. Ping I'd say, no, you bugger off and take that wish and stick it in your jumper. Thanks, mister unicorn. I literally would never go back to alcohol for all the money in the world, ever, ever, ever. So you know, I think it's super important that people listening who are in that contemplation phase understand the good stuff that can happen and the change. You know what I see again and again, Holly, is that friendship groups and what not change drastically, and so I'm no longer surrounded by humans on the grog. I'm surrounded by people in my friendship groups who are very health focused, motivated, They're achieving things, they're doing things. They're very inspiring people to me.

Bloody oath? It can be? Holly? Do you know what? Oh my god? And again I'll use our group as a reference point. I mean, we see people dropping comments and they might have been struggling for a couple of years, and eventually when they come through the hard slog, and there is a hard slog for a lot of these people, it's rarely an overnight, you know, transition, right, But when they come out the other side of all that hardship, people are suddenly going, oh my god, you guys, It's been two years since I've had a drink, and I've saved like god knows how many tens of thousands of dollars and I've started running. And guess what my kids think. I'm an awesome mum because I'm present and i am here and I'm available and I'm not useless every Sunday. I shouldn't say that as though every mummy is that it hasn't dream right, you know what I'm saying. I'm speaking generally. Or we see dads dropping in and saying I've lost my beer gut and I've got a six pack, and my wife reckons I'm the shes look at me, go it's gorgeous. We see so many beautiful, beautiful stories of families restored, health, restored, lives actually restored. And I feel like I sound like an evangelist here, but I feel like an evangelists sometimes. I want to stand on the top of the mountain and say, you guys, you don't understand. What's on the other side is amazing. There's happiness, there's clarity, there's presence of mind. Yeah, there's fitness. There's all of these wonderful, wonderful things. I think that in sobriety circles what can happen is because there is so much hardship and that a focus on the bad things and the rock bottom, that we forget the magical moments that come. I have to tell you, whenever I do a keynote, I always finish with that point and I say, you know, for magical Unicorn was to land on my shoulder and say, Shanna, wan, I grant thee the wish to drink like a normal human from henceforth. Ping I'd say, no, you bugger off and take that wish and stick it in your jumper. Thanks, mister unicorn. I literally would never go back to alcohol for all the money in the world, ever, ever, ever. So you know, I think it's super important that people listening who are in that contemplation phase understand the good stuff that can happen and the change. You know what I see again and again, Holly, is that friendship groups and what not change drastically, and so I'm no longer surrounded by humans on the grog. I'm surrounded by people in my friendship groups who are very health focused, motivated, They're achieving things, they're doing things. They're very inspiring people to me.

I'd love to ask you, Shan before we go, if somebody is listening to this, and it's not necessarily themselves that they're worried about, but somebody in their lives who they love, who they know, is struggling, or they can see that alcohol is their relationship with alcohol has become unhealthy or has been for a while. What can you do and should you do anything?

I'd love to ask you, Shan before we go, if somebody is listening to this, and it's not necessarily themselves that they're worried about, but somebody in their lives who they love, who they know, is struggling, or they can see that alcohol is their relationship with alcohol has become unhealthy or has been for a while. What can you do and should you do anything?

Oh gosh, it's a really important question and it's probably one of the most heartbreaking things that I see until with on a daily basis in communities or just witness and it is our most frequently asked question. The answer is, you definitely need to, above all else, equip yourself with knowledge, information tools, and an education and awareness. If you are someone who cares about a human struggling, whether it's just with a bit of red flag drinking or end stage addiction, like jump on our website for starters and have a look at the family and friends section or just google what do I do if someone I love is you know, red flag or problematic drinking? Because oftentimes, with the very best of intentions, we do all the wrong things right, my husband did the things that are common mistakes, covering for me, lying for me, even sometimes enabling me unwittingly, and there's a lot of contention around that topic of enabling even so we don't have enough time to even cover that. But please absolutely see help and support. And in the same way someone with the issue around drinking seeks peer support. Family members need their own peer support too, because for every person impacted by addiction, the seven closest people to them are equally impacted. Another really really awful statistic. So you know, jump on our website, have a look at the resources an info because it is really really fragile territory and it's very very tricky. But there are certain things that are better to say than others. There are certain things that are better to do than others. And I remember when it was May. I'll give you an example. Someone very close to me came to me one day in the morning very intelligently, because usually after five o'clock it was anyone's guess what state I would be. And I was an after five blackout drinker. That was what I did. I was a workaholic by day, alcoholic after five anyway, And she came to me one morning and she said, Chen, we know that you're not well, we know that you're struggling. We love you very very much, but just to be clear, our family can't come and have dinner and do anything with you of an evening anymore because it's really upsetting and it's too difficult. Yep, I know it makes you want to cry. It's too hard for us to see you in this much pain and torment, and we know that must have.

Oh gosh, it's a really important question and it's probably one of the most heartbreaking things that I see until with on a daily basis in communities or just witness and it is our most frequently asked question. The answer is, you definitely need to, above all else, equip yourself with knowledge, information tools, and an education and awareness. If you are someone who cares about a human struggling, whether it's just with a bit of red flag drinking or end stage addiction, like jump on our website for starters and have a look at the family and friends section or just google what do I do if someone I love is you know, red flag or problematic drinking? Because oftentimes, with the very best of intentions, we do all the wrong things right, my husband did the things that are common mistakes, covering for me, lying for me, even sometimes enabling me unwittingly, and there's a lot of contention around that topic of enabling even so we don't have enough time to even cover that. But please absolutely see help and support. And in the same way someone with the issue around drinking seeks peer support. Family members need their own peer support too, because for every person impacted by addiction, the seven closest people to them are equally impacted. Another really really awful statistic. So you know, jump on our website, have a look at the resources an info because it is really really fragile territory and it's very very tricky. But there are certain things that are better to say than others. There are certain things that are better to do than others. And I remember when it was May. I'll give you an example. Someone very close to me came to me one day in the morning very intelligently, because usually after five o'clock it was anyone's guess what state I would be. And I was an after five blackout drinker. That was what I did. I was a workaholic by day, alcoholic after five anyway, And she came to me one morning and she said, Chen, we know that you're not well, we know that you're struggling. We love you very very much, but just to be clear, our family can't come and have dinner and do anything with you of an evening anymore because it's really upsetting and it's too difficult. Yep, I know it makes you want to cry. It's too hard for us to see you in this much pain and torment, and we know that must have.

Been hard for them to say that to you, I mean, unbelievably hard for you to hear. But also that would take a lot.