Oh hi, hello there. This is Let's talk about MIT's baby, and I am your Thebes Obsessed host Live.

Oh hi, hello there. This is Let's talk about MIT's baby, and I am your Thebes Obsessed host Live.

Now.

Now.

Today, we are back with another conversation as promised, and it begins with an apology to my guest Megan Cleveland, who is joining me to talk all of the study that she has done on Stacious as Thebiad the byad. I anyway, it's about Thebes. We recorded this episode in March of twenty twenty two. It has been a very long time, and the reason is that, like as you'll hear the episode, I originally intended to do this whole big series of episodes covering the thebad before airing this, so that you know, you all had the necessary context of the story because it sounds so good and Megan really sold me on it. But then while like, I looked at the epic and I realized how long it was, and I wasn't sure if you all you know, my listeners, or I was ready for a multi part series that long, Like it would have been longer than the Iliad and the Odyssey because of how detailed I am now, and so I just kept putting it off, and thats just kept putting off Megan's episode. But when I hit this very rome month of episodes, I realized that we really just need to hear all the things that Megan has to share about the epic, whether or not we have heard the story itself. And you know, we will get to the story itself, the epic itself eventually, but for now The Thebad is a Roman epic, but it tells the story of a Greek myth very in the vein of Seneca. You know, it's very Roman thing to do. And actually Stacius was writing only shortly after a Seneca and based on some of the wild ast violence that Megan mentions happening in this epic. I think you can really see the time period that both of these writers their work and they were working in. You know, it really only adds to the intrigue, like when you're living under Nero, like shit's gonna go down, you know. And like I said, one day, I will make a huge series on this epic, But until then, the basics are this. Think back to my episodes on sophocless Oedipus, and then further back to my episodes on Sophocles's Antigony and Euripides's Phoenician women. The epic revolves around the ramifications of Oedipus's family and then the war between the brothers his sons over who will take the throne of Thebes. Of course there is there's so much more to it, because it's a whole ass epic, but that is basically what you need to know other than what Mega is going to share. I've also linked to the Wikipedia page for the epic if you wanted to read a bit about it yourself. Honestly, though, even just re listening to this conversation after so long, it really just made me want to dive back into that work. So hopefully we won't be too far off from that on the podcast. But as I started saying, huge enormous apologies to Megan for how long this took to air, and equally enormous thanks for her incredible and kind patience, but I'm so glad to finally have it for you all. Unfortunately, we did also have a connection issue when we recorded. That meant sometimes our replies to each other we're serious and delayed. So if you're thinking like HM Live usually interjects more than this, that's absolutely why, because yeah, I normally do You'll also hear a lot about a novel that Megan's written about the children of Oedipus and Jocasta, so you'll absolutely hear more from her on the show to talk about that, and we also speak of my own novel. But again, this was recorded a while ago, so I just want to I don't want you all getting ideas that I've gotten any further into it or getting it to be reality, because I haven't. One day. Maybe I kept it all in because I've heard from all of you that you you like, you know, hearing about people talking about their writing processes and particularly how frustrating and never ending it can be. You know, we can all live in our misery together, because isn't that the truth? Until then, we can always use more Thebes on the podcast, especially one featuring such fascinating and well violent characters. Conversations when Romans write Greek myth stacious is Fabian with Megan Cleveland. I don't remember exactly what other than just Thebes you told me we were going to talk about, and I was so excited that I just have kept writing Thebes all in caps everywhere that I've planned this. So tell me what about Thebes? Do you study what about thieves we're going to talk about. I'm so excited.

Today, we are back with another conversation as promised, and it begins with an apology to my guest Megan Cleveland, who is joining me to talk all of the study that she has done on Stacious as Thebiad the byad. I anyway, it's about Thebes. We recorded this episode in March of twenty twenty two. It has been a very long time, and the reason is that, like as you'll hear the episode, I originally intended to do this whole big series of episodes covering the thebad before airing this, so that you know, you all had the necessary context of the story because it sounds so good and Megan really sold me on it. But then while like, I looked at the epic and I realized how long it was, and I wasn't sure if you all you know, my listeners, or I was ready for a multi part series that long, Like it would have been longer than the Iliad and the Odyssey because of how detailed I am now, and so I just kept putting it off, and thats just kept putting off Megan's episode. But when I hit this very rome month of episodes, I realized that we really just need to hear all the things that Megan has to share about the epic, whether or not we have heard the story itself. And you know, we will get to the story itself, the epic itself eventually, but for now The Thebad is a Roman epic, but it tells the story of a Greek myth very in the vein of Seneca. You know, it's very Roman thing to do. And actually Stacius was writing only shortly after a Seneca and based on some of the wild ast violence that Megan mentions happening in this epic. I think you can really see the time period that both of these writers their work and they were working in. You know, it really only adds to the intrigue, like when you're living under Nero, like shit's gonna go down, you know. And like I said, one day, I will make a huge series on this epic, But until then, the basics are this. Think back to my episodes on sophocless Oedipus, and then further back to my episodes on Sophocles's Antigony and Euripides's Phoenician women. The epic revolves around the ramifications of Oedipus's family and then the war between the brothers his sons over who will take the throne of Thebes. Of course there is there's so much more to it, because it's a whole ass epic, but that is basically what you need to know other than what Mega is going to share. I've also linked to the Wikipedia page for the epic if you wanted to read a bit about it yourself. Honestly, though, even just re listening to this conversation after so long, it really just made me want to dive back into that work. So hopefully we won't be too far off from that on the podcast. But as I started saying, huge enormous apologies to Megan for how long this took to air, and equally enormous thanks for her incredible and kind patience, but I'm so glad to finally have it for you all. Unfortunately, we did also have a connection issue when we recorded. That meant sometimes our replies to each other we're serious and delayed. So if you're thinking like HM Live usually interjects more than this, that's absolutely why, because yeah, I normally do You'll also hear a lot about a novel that Megan's written about the children of Oedipus and Jocasta, so you'll absolutely hear more from her on the show to talk about that, and we also speak of my own novel. But again, this was recorded a while ago, so I just want to I don't want you all getting ideas that I've gotten any further into it or getting it to be reality, because I haven't. One day. Maybe I kept it all in because I've heard from all of you that you you like, you know, hearing about people talking about their writing processes and particularly how frustrating and never ending it can be. You know, we can all live in our misery together, because isn't that the truth? Until then, we can always use more Thebes on the podcast, especially one featuring such fascinating and well violent characters. Conversations when Romans write Greek myth stacious is Fabian with Megan Cleveland. I don't remember exactly what other than just Thebes you told me we were going to talk about, and I was so excited that I just have kept writing Thebes all in caps everywhere that I've planned this. So tell me what about Thebes? Do you study what about thieves we're going to talk about. I'm so excited.

Okay, so today we're going to talk about the the Biad, which is a Roman epic about write But like, that's okay. I've been studying Theeves Like I've been out of grad school for a couple of years, but I've been doing like an independent study because I'm writing a book about thieves. So I've been learning all this stuff. So even if we're talking about this Roman depiction of thieves, we can still talk about Greek thieves because I have that background there too. So we're going to talk about this extremely violent, fun epic by Statious.

Okay, so today we're going to talk about the the Biad, which is a Roman epic about write But like, that's okay. I've been studying Theeves Like I've been out of grad school for a couple of years, but I've been doing like an independent study because I'm writing a book about thieves. So I've been learning all this stuff. So even if we're talking about this Roman depiction of thieves, we can still talk about Greek thieves because I have that background there too. So we're going to talk about this extremely violent, fun epic by Statious.

And so, okay, I have not read his Thebian. But is it like like say, the Fall of Troy, the Roman epic that's based on maybe probably an ancient Greek epic that we don't have, So is this one assumed to be like based on You might be about to tell me this, but it's of course, my first question is is it assumed to be based on the ancient like theban cycle that we think existed.

And so, okay, I have not read his Thebian. But is it like like say, the Fall of Troy, the Roman epic that's based on maybe probably an ancient Greek epic that we don't have, So is this one assumed to be like based on You might be about to tell me this, but it's of course, my first question is is it assumed to be based on the ancient like theban cycle that we think existed.

Yeah, so it certainly has some connection to that lost epic, But like other presentations of themes that we get from say, like the Greek play rights. He puts his own spin on it, so we can't be sure what is like in that lost epic and what was Station's own invention, So we'll just have to see it again.

Yeah, so it certainly has some connection to that lost epic, But like other presentations of themes that we get from say, like the Greek play rights. He puts his own spin on it, so we can't be sure what is like in that lost epic and what was Station's own invention, So we'll just have to see it again.

Yeah, I mean that's a story of lost epic, right, It's like who knows? But hey, we have it.

Yeah, I mean that's a story of lost epic, right, It's like who knows? But hey, we have it.

That's what matters, right, Yeah, So are you ready to start?

That's what matters, right, Yeah, So are you ready to start?

Please dive right in.

Please dive right in.

Okay, So from when we talk about before, I'm assuming you're going to do a little series on the bibe where you read it. So I'm not going to summarize it. I'm just going to go straight in and talk about what I think is interesting about.

Okay, So from when we talk about before, I'm assuming you're going to do a little series on the bibe where you read it. So I'm not going to summarize it. I'm just going to go straight in and talk about what I think is interesting about.

It, please, all right?

It, please, all right?

So the Biad is an epic about the war between the sons of Oedipus and about the destruction of thieves. So when you think about thieves, you think about the Sphinx, And in the Biad we get this image of the Sphinx as she falls to her death and she dashes what Spacious describes as her album on the rocks, and this image can be equated with the destruction of thieves. And I'm going to have some Latin in here. I hope you don't mind.

So the Biad is an epic about the war between the sons of Oedipus and about the destruction of thieves. So when you think about thieves, you think about the Sphinx, And in the Biad we get this image of the Sphinx as she falls to her death and she dashes what Spacious describes as her album on the rocks, and this image can be equated with the destruction of thieves. And I'm going to have some Latin in here. I hope you don't mind.

Please, I don't know any Latin, so have that It all right?

Please, I don't know any Latin, so have that It all right?

Great? So the noun awlus can mean either belly or womb, So the belly of the Sphinx evokes the stomach of them monster that consumed so many Thebans, but it also evokes the womb of Jocasta, which received what it brought forth, which is my fancy way of saying she had sex with her son, so received.

Great? So the noun awlus can mean either belly or womb, So the belly of the Sphinx evokes the stomach of them monster that consumed so many Thebans, but it also evokes the womb of Jocasta, which received what it brought forth, which is my fancy way of saying she had sex with her son, so received.

What it brought forth. Oh my god, it took me a second.

What it brought forth. Oh my god, it took me a second.

This is kind of like an informal version of something I did in grad school, So that was the grad school version. But like to break it down, she had sex with her son, so we've got that image of the womb receiving what it put forth, if that makes sense. So he's coming back. I don't know.

This is kind of like an informal version of something I did in grad school, So that was the grad school version. But like to break it down, she had sex with her son, so we've got that image of the womb receiving what it put forth, if that makes sense. So he's coming back. I don't know.

Oh that, I love it. It's so good.

Oh that, I love it. It's so good.

So so this word album, which can mean either belly or womb or both, it acts as this microcosm for the self destructive state of the thebiad. The way I think of it is like an our boro. Have you seen one of those. It's that snake that swallows its own tail. So it's like consuming itself so we're also going to talk about the word consumption today. So Stacius communicates this self destruction through the verb consumo. So consumo can have three different meanings. It can mean to waste, to destroy, or to devour. And there's three characters of the Biad that embody these three different meanings of consumo. Adrastis wastes, Paulnices destroys, and Tidiest devours. And each of these figures share in common the stigma of familial violence. So I believe that the stigma of familial violence contributes to that destructive nature of consumption in the epic. The less distance between the character and the act of violence itself, the more the character is associated with destructive consumption. A Drastis is a descendant of Tantalus, and because he's like a distant descendant, that removes him from the stigma of phylicide. So he's considered to be one of the few good characters, but he's the responsible for the waste of argive men in a theban war. Paula Nices, the son of Oedipus, is close to the stigma of patricide and incests committed by his father, and he's ultimately responsible for the destruction of thieves in the end of the line of Oedipus through his war with the Teacletes and Titius, my favorite, he bears the stigma of fratricide, a crime he notably committed himself. There's a line in the epic that says, pollutes Frettino sanguine Titius, Titius stained with a brother's blood. Of all the characters, Titius represents the most destructive force of consumption by becoming a cannibal in book eight. So we will get to that today. You might be interested to know about Titius that he is the father of a well known character from the Iliad. There's two different ways of pronouncing it, but I say Diomedes, so Odysseus's friend, and another thing Venus. Yeah, so before Diomedes was born, Titius was also a famouite, sorry, a favorite of Athenus. So we're also going to think of that when we talk about him too. So did you have any questions?

So so this word album, which can mean either belly or womb or both, it acts as this microcosm for the self destructive state of the thebiad. The way I think of it is like an our boro. Have you seen one of those. It's that snake that swallows its own tail. So it's like consuming itself so we're also going to talk about the word consumption today. So Stacius communicates this self destruction through the verb consumo. So consumo can have three different meanings. It can mean to waste, to destroy, or to devour. And there's three characters of the Biad that embody these three different meanings of consumo. Adrastis wastes, Paulnices destroys, and Tidiest devours. And each of these figures share in common the stigma of familial violence. So I believe that the stigma of familial violence contributes to that destructive nature of consumption in the epic. The less distance between the character and the act of violence itself, the more the character is associated with destructive consumption. A Drastis is a descendant of Tantalus, and because he's like a distant descendant, that removes him from the stigma of phylicide. So he's considered to be one of the few good characters, but he's the responsible for the waste of argive men in a theban war. Paula Nices, the son of Oedipus, is close to the stigma of patricide and incests committed by his father, and he's ultimately responsible for the destruction of thieves in the end of the line of Oedipus through his war with the Teacletes and Titius, my favorite, he bears the stigma of fratricide, a crime he notably committed himself. There's a line in the epic that says, pollutes Frettino sanguine Titius, Titius stained with a brother's blood. Of all the characters, Titius represents the most destructive force of consumption by becoming a cannibal in book eight. So we will get to that today. You might be interested to know about Titius that he is the father of a well known character from the Iliad. There's two different ways of pronouncing it, but I say Diomedes, so Odysseus's friend, and another thing Venus. Yeah, so before Diomedes was born, Titius was also a famouite, sorry, a favorite of Athenus. So we're also going to think of that when we talk about him too. So did you have any questions?

So many times? Just yeah, I said his name so many times just because of like I guess him being Dimtes' son. But then also I'm like, this is one of the few moments in the past podcast that I'm actually legitimately embarrassed by. So we'll see if I keep it in. But like when I was reading the Iliad, I was first pronouncing it tedious, which I hate, and I don't know why I thought of it it being that, and then I changed it like midway through because people were laughing at me. It's like one of those things we're like, damn, tidyas, you really got me.

So many times? Just yeah, I said his name so many times just because of like I guess him being Dimtes' son. But then also I'm like, this is one of the few moments in the past podcast that I'm actually legitimately embarrassed by. So we'll see if I keep it in. But like when I was reading the Iliad, I was first pronouncing it tedious, which I hate, and I don't know why I thought of it it being that, and then I changed it like midway through because people were laughing at me. It's like one of those things we're like, damn, tidyas, you really got me.

This thing with studying Greek and Latin is you're never really sure how to pronounce it because it's not really spoken language anymore, right, So you could be right, I could be wrong, So it doesn't really matter.

This thing with studying Greek and Latin is you're never really sure how to pronounce it because it's not really spoken language anymore, right, So you could be right, I could be wrong, So it doesn't really matter.

I know, one just sounds funnier, and for me it's only by I Also, when I started reading the Iliad, like titious, Yeah, Like I started reading the Iliad and it uh like I read it and I didn't read it beforehand, Like I mean, I've read the Iliad, but I didn't like read that version beforehand. I just sit down with it in front of me and this microphone and I just go for it. So I'm like guessing all these pronunciations like literally in the split second, and sometimes it causes for some funny things.

I know, one just sounds funnier, and for me it's only by I Also, when I started reading the Iliad, like titious, Yeah, Like I started reading the Iliad and it uh like I read it and I didn't read it beforehand, Like I mean, I've read the Iliad, but I didn't like read that version beforehand. I just sit down with it in front of me and this microphone and I just go for it. So I'm like guessing all these pronunciations like literally in the split second, and sometimes it causes for some funny things.

I understand. It's quite all right, okay.

I understand. It's quite all right, okay.

Sorry, I'm also good at tangents.

Sorry, I'm also good at tangents.

No, that's okay. I will get sucked in and I will just go off if we do that, so it'll be fun at least. So before we talk about the three characters in more depth, I want to talk quickly about Jupiter, who is the Roman Zeus. So the Thebaian starts with a council of the gods that's gathered by Jupiter, and he declares that he's decided to punish a specific group of mortals, and Statius describes Jupiter's decision to punish them is due to his insatiable appetite for violence, and Jupiter directs this insatiable violence towards the royal houses of argos and thieves. So we've got this line that Jupiter says, no gemines pure domos, qui sanguines outdoor ipciego discendo perseus oltur in argos skinny tor ionius flutique ab origine theves. Now I descend to punish two houses, of which blood Eyem my self and the ancestor. One branches into argos and the other into thieves. So It's really interesting that Jupiter is punishing these mortals for these crimes against the gods, and he considers these an offense to him, and to remedy this, he decides to destroy them. But he also acknowledges that he's related to them and he's somehow inherited They've inherited his violence, So again we've got that sort of ra woros. He's punishing them for something that they inherited through him, So that's interesting to me. I'd like to suggest Jupiter acquired this mentality from his father, Saturn or Cronus. So Jupiter becomes like Saturn through his need to destroy his own descendants, although not in such a literal form of consumption, because as we know, Saturn tried to eat all of his children the influence.

No, that's okay. I will get sucked in and I will just go off if we do that, so it'll be fun at least. So before we talk about the three characters in more depth, I want to talk quickly about Jupiter, who is the Roman Zeus. So the Thebaian starts with a council of the gods that's gathered by Jupiter, and he declares that he's decided to punish a specific group of mortals, and Statius describes Jupiter's decision to punish them is due to his insatiable appetite for violence, and Jupiter directs this insatiable violence towards the royal houses of argos and thieves. So we've got this line that Jupiter says, no gemines pure domos, qui sanguines outdoor ipciego discendo perseus oltur in argos skinny tor ionius flutique ab origine theves. Now I descend to punish two houses, of which blood Eyem my self and the ancestor. One branches into argos and the other into thieves. So It's really interesting that Jupiter is punishing these mortals for these crimes against the gods, and he considers these an offense to him, and to remedy this, he decides to destroy them. But he also acknowledges that he's related to them and he's somehow inherited They've inherited his violence, So again we've got that sort of ra woros. He's punishing them for something that they inherited through him, So that's interesting to me. I'd like to suggest Jupiter acquired this mentality from his father, Saturn or Cronus. So Jupiter becomes like Saturn through his need to destroy his own descendants, although not in such a literal form of consumption, because as we know, Saturn tried to eat all of his children the influence.

Of Saturn, did he ever?

Of Saturn, did he ever?

Oh he did. I'm thinking of that painting by Goya right now, which is my favorite.

Oh he did. I'm thinking of that painting by Goya right now, which is my favorite.

Oh yeah, always, always.

Oh yeah, always, always.

The influence of Saturn can explain the Proem, which features fathers who wish harm upon their children. In the Proem, edith Is invokes to Siphony, who's one of the furies, to curse his sons, a curse Jupiter. Here's himself and it motivates his decision to punish thieves and Argos. So Jupiter decides to punish thieves and Argos. That character a Drastist that I talked about before. He is the king of Argos. And there's a lot of scholarship on the Thebaiad that used to emphasize the innocence of Argives in that there was this widely held belief that Argos was dragged into war by an unjust Jupiter and that Argos was an innocent city corrupted by civil war. However, there is some research by scholar named Ruth Parkes who argues that Stacius places the emphasis on theban guilt. However, our goss, through their ancestral stigma, becomes complicit and even guilt through their support of poll and Ices. A Drastis like I mentioned before, is considered to be one of the few good and compassionate characters in the poem. Yet we get these repeated connections between Adrastus and the monstrous figure of Tantalus. When we first meet Adrastus, he sees Polinices and he tolds Paul and Ices that his connection to Oedipus is impossible to hide, but he argues that paul and Ices doesn't have to let that become a part of his identity, and he offers pol and Ices a new identity by removing I guess Oedipus as his father by an offering himself. So Adrastus lets Paul and Ices marries his daughter Argia. And little fun fact for you is the wedding gift Paul and Iices gifts to are you is a certain necklace that used to belong to Harmonia, and that necklace signifies that their marriage is cursed.

The influence of Saturn can explain the Proem, which features fathers who wish harm upon their children. In the Proem, edith Is invokes to Siphony, who's one of the furies, to curse his sons, a curse Jupiter. Here's himself and it motivates his decision to punish thieves and Argos. So Jupiter decides to punish thieves and Argos. That character a Drastist that I talked about before. He is the king of Argos. And there's a lot of scholarship on the Thebaiad that used to emphasize the innocence of Argives in that there was this widely held belief that Argos was dragged into war by an unjust Jupiter and that Argos was an innocent city corrupted by civil war. However, there is some research by scholar named Ruth Parkes who argues that Stacius places the emphasis on theban guilt. However, our goss, through their ancestral stigma, becomes complicit and even guilt through their support of poll and Ices. A Drastis like I mentioned before, is considered to be one of the few good and compassionate characters in the poem. Yet we get these repeated connections between Adrastus and the monstrous figure of Tantalus. When we first meet Adrastus, he sees Polinices and he tolds Paul and Ices that his connection to Oedipus is impossible to hide, but he argues that paul and Ices doesn't have to let that become a part of his identity, and he offers pol and Ices a new identity by removing I guess Oedipus as his father by an offering himself. So Adrastus lets Paul and Ices marries his daughter Argia. And little fun fact for you is the wedding gift Paul and Iices gifts to are you is a certain necklace that used to belong to Harmonia, and that necklace signifies that their marriage is cursed.

Yeah, I was gonna say that is one curse necklace. I love it so much. Okay, that leads me to a question, not the necklace, but I want, I mean, if I wish there was more to talk about the necklace because I feel like there's not. But also I'm desperately like devoted to it as an idea. But how does a Drastis get this separation from the curse of Tantalus when he is in the like generation before? Like okay, sorry, I'm like trying to phrase my question. I guess where is like basically, where does like Agamemnon's parents like, uh, you know, Atreus and thiestes, like where do they come in? Do they like bring the curse back? And a drastis like didn't have the curse? And then and then are they next in the line, And it's like you're fucked again.

Yeah, I was gonna say that is one curse necklace. I love it so much. Okay, that leads me to a question, not the necklace, but I want, I mean, if I wish there was more to talk about the necklace because I feel like there's not. But also I'm desperately like devoted to it as an idea. But how does a Drastis get this separation from the curse of Tantalus when he is in the like generation before? Like okay, sorry, I'm like trying to phrase my question. I guess where is like basically, where does like Agamemnon's parents like, uh, you know, Atreus and thiestes, like where do they come in? Do they like bring the curse back? And a drastis like didn't have the curse? And then and then are they next in the line, And it's like you're fucked again.

Like when you study mythology, you know that like there's no timeline. They're all existing at the same time. It's like a multiverse just right.

Like when you study mythology, you know that like there's no timeline. They're all existing at the same time. It's like a multiverse just right.

And I like, obviously I say that literally all the time because my listeners are always asking me these types of questions. But it feels to me like the one kind of line of like cursed family members that was pretty static felt like that was the you know, the Tantalis to Agamemnon through line. So I'm just I'm interested in Adrastus in that way because it feels to me, which is again like super possible that this all, like this whole story then is like tacked on later because you have this guy who's not cursed, because it's like clearly there is this deeply cursed line that leads all the way to Agamemnon, and then he feels so out of place. It's just really interesting in that way, Like I love those little moments where you're like was this thrown in later where you were it's like, he's not cursed. Oh, how lucky he was far enough away from Tantalis, he's not cursed.

And I like, obviously I say that literally all the time because my listeners are always asking me these types of questions. But it feels to me like the one kind of line of like cursed family members that was pretty static felt like that was the you know, the Tantalis to Agamemnon through line. So I'm just I'm interested in Adrastus in that way because it feels to me, which is again like super possible that this all, like this whole story then is like tacked on later because you have this guy who's not cursed, because it's like clearly there is this deeply cursed line that leads all the way to Agamemnon, and then he feels so out of place. It's just really interesting in that way, Like I love those little moments where you're like was this thrown in later where you were it's like, he's not cursed. Oh, how lucky he was far enough away from Tantalis, he's not cursed.

Well, you picked up on something that scholars have kind of been arguing about for hundreds of years. There's a bunch of different additions of how he's related to Tantalus, but the one I'm going to focus on my argument here is that Adrastus is related to Tantalus through the figure of Niaby, which is real. Yeah, so, So the popular tradition is that Adrassus is related to Tantalus the murder of his own child, through Niaby, who is infamous for her act of hubris concerning her children. So, like Adrastus, Niaby wastes lives. She wastes the lives of her children through her pride, just as Adrastus wastes the lives of our guide men through his generosity to Polinices addresses is generosity to Polinices and Titius. Titius is also offered one of Adrastus's daughters as his wife, so they become brothers through marriage, and he is generous to them, and through his generosity, it's an extension of his role as hospice or host, which is a role that Tantalus was playing when he committed his crime of philiicide. So addressed in this way, he's presented as a niavy figure because his hubris is trying to escape that ancestral stigma of his house, a stigma he claims doesn't matter, when in fact we know it's the motivation of Jupiter's punishment.

Well, you picked up on something that scholars have kind of been arguing about for hundreds of years. There's a bunch of different additions of how he's related to Tantalus, but the one I'm going to focus on my argument here is that Adrastus is related to Tantalus through the figure of Niaby, which is real. Yeah, so, So the popular tradition is that Adrassus is related to Tantalus the murder of his own child, through Niaby, who is infamous for her act of hubris concerning her children. So, like Adrastus, Niaby wastes lives. She wastes the lives of her children through her pride, just as Adrastus wastes the lives of our guide men through his generosity to Polinices addresses is generosity to Polinices and Titius. Titius is also offered one of Adrastus's daughters as his wife, so they become brothers through marriage, and he is generous to them, and through his generosity, it's an extension of his role as hospice or host, which is a role that Tantalus was playing when he committed his crime of philiicide. So addressed in this way, he's presented as a niavy figure because his hubris is trying to escape that ancestral stigma of his house, a stigma he claims doesn't matter, when in fact we know it's the motivation of Jupiter's punishment.

It matters. Oh yeah, it always matters, man.

It matters. Oh yeah, it always matters, man.

And he tries to use like his own version of reverse psychology. So instead of hiding his connection to Tantalus, he flaunts it. He has pictures of him on his banners, he has a statue of him in the hall of his ancestors, and he has his army called themselves the Army of the Descendants of Tantalus. So he's really like broadcasting it to everybody to try to I guess show like, oh, it's not something to hide, but it's having the opposite effect.

And he tries to use like his own version of reverse psychology. So instead of hiding his connection to Tantalus, he flaunts it. He has pictures of him on his banners, he has a statue of him in the hall of his ancestors, and he has his army called themselves the Army of the Descendants of Tantalus. So he's really like broadcasting it to everybody to try to I guess show like, oh, it's not something to hide, but it's having the opposite effect.

It should be. Yeah, that's really interesting. Oh I love that.

It should be. Yeah, that's really interesting. Oh I love that.

Yeah, And through this weird way of trying to escape his ancestral stigma by flaunting it, so he's trying to change his fate. So he becomes like Oedipus too, because he's trying and failing to escape that fate that's been placed on him, which is that connection to Tantalus, which is the reason that him and his family are going to be not he doesn't get destroyed. He's actually the only character of the seven that actually lives. The rest of them all die, but his family's ruined forever after this.

Yeah, And through this weird way of trying to escape his ancestral stigma by flaunting it, so he's trying to change his fate. So he becomes like Oedipus too, because he's trying and failing to escape that fate that's been placed on him, which is that connection to Tantalus, which is the reason that him and his family are going to be not he doesn't get destroyed. He's actually the only character of the seven that actually lives. The rest of them all die, but his family's ruined forever after this.

Yeah, because you're a descendive Tantalus.

Yeah, because you're a descendive Tantalus.

Like, sorry, So we got to keep in mind all these connections to ancestors because if we still have time, I want to talk about the historical context which this is written so it might have some significance later. So the next character that I was going to talk about is poll and Ices. Paul and Ices, as we know, as a product of incest in the epic, he's an exile, denied his birthright, and wandering Greece. He's given the opportunity to change his fate through his marriage to argia A. Drassis gives paul and Ices the gift of another father, another kingdom, and a new brother in Tidius. Yet paul and IC's desire to take vengeance on attiacles into regrain his rightful throne consumes him and destroys any happiness for both himself and everyone around him. So, like I said before, Jupiter is transmitting his insatiable violence to his Theban and argive descendants. And there's a dominant belief that the Thebans are more subject to this mentality than the Archives because the Furies have come out of the underworld and they're kind of like acting like the puppet masters and controlling the actions of Ats and pollen Ices. Paul and ices desire for it is really cool. When you read it, you're really gonna like it because there's a lot of snake imagery that you might want to have some influence in with your book on Cadmus. So there's lots of snakes involved.

Like, sorry, So we got to keep in mind all these connections to ancestors because if we still have time, I want to talk about the historical context which this is written so it might have some significance later. So the next character that I was going to talk about is poll and Ices. Paul and Ices, as we know, as a product of incest in the epic, he's an exile, denied his birthright, and wandering Greece. He's given the opportunity to change his fate through his marriage to argia A. Drassis gives paul and Ices the gift of another father, another kingdom, and a new brother in Tidius. Yet paul and IC's desire to take vengeance on attiacles into regrain his rightful throne consumes him and destroys any happiness for both himself and everyone around him. So, like I said before, Jupiter is transmitting his insatiable violence to his Theban and argive descendants. And there's a dominant belief that the Thebans are more subject to this mentality than the Archives because the Furies have come out of the underworld and they're kind of like acting like the puppet masters and controlling the actions of Ats and pollen Ices. Paul and ices desire for it is really cool. When you read it, you're really gonna like it because there's a lot of snake imagery that you might want to have some influence in with your book on Cadmus. So there's lots of snakes involved.

So colonized, excited.

So colonized, excited.

It's a really great book. I'm excited for when you do an episode about it. So, Paul and IC's desire for power destroys the lives of everyone around him. Paul and Ices only realizes the destructive force of his desire for power when Titius dies. When he learns of his friend's death, Paul and Ices has that like, you know, cinematic moment where he screams to the sky and he says uh neil opus arma alto temporary et perdre mortes et precor quid young davitas pimos timpsi. There's no need to prove arms any further, and to waste anywhere deaths go. I beg you, what else can you give me? I've destroyed Tidius. So there's this scholar named Neil Coffee whose research a lot of this is based on. He points out that Paul and Ices only rejects the consumption of lives in response to the death of its most avid consumer. He argues that Stacius draws together these two different forms of consumers. So Paul and Icedes destroys and Tidius consumes or sorry devours. And by contrasting these so we contrast Paul and Icy's use of violence to that of his friends. So Paul and Icy's use of violence, it's just kind of selfish. He doesn't realize he's doing it. He's so focused on getting what he wants. He doesn't really notice the casualties that are happening because of him, whereas Titius is a bit more He's he knows what he's doing. That's what I'm going to see about that he takes. He has a certain appetite and pleasure in violence that Paul and Ices doesn't. And even though after Tidius dies and he's realized that he's wasted all these lives, you think in this moment, Paul and Ices will have a change of heart and maybe I'll be like, oh, you know what addresses Maybe I will go back to Argos and become king like he suggested, and just focus on my new family. But no, he wants to go to Thieves. He wants to destroy it because they don't accept him, and he wants to kill his brother. So despite the lessons he learns along the way, Paul and Ices is still focused on killing his brother and destroying Thebes.

It's a really great book. I'm excited for when you do an episode about it. So, Paul and IC's desire for power destroys the lives of everyone around him. Paul and Ices only realizes the destructive force of his desire for power when Titius dies. When he learns of his friend's death, Paul and Ices has that like, you know, cinematic moment where he screams to the sky and he says uh neil opus arma alto temporary et perdre mortes et precor quid young davitas pimos timpsi. There's no need to prove arms any further, and to waste anywhere deaths go. I beg you, what else can you give me? I've destroyed Tidius. So there's this scholar named Neil Coffee whose research a lot of this is based on. He points out that Paul and Ices only rejects the consumption of lives in response to the death of its most avid consumer. He argues that Stacius draws together these two different forms of consumers. So Paul and Icedes destroys and Tidius consumes or sorry devours. And by contrasting these so we contrast Paul and Icy's use of violence to that of his friends. So Paul and Icy's use of violence, it's just kind of selfish. He doesn't realize he's doing it. He's so focused on getting what he wants. He doesn't really notice the casualties that are happening because of him, whereas Titius is a bit more He's he knows what he's doing. That's what I'm going to see about that he takes. He has a certain appetite and pleasure in violence that Paul and Ices doesn't. And even though after Tidius dies and he's realized that he's wasted all these lives, you think in this moment, Paul and Ices will have a change of heart and maybe I'll be like, oh, you know what addresses Maybe I will go back to Argos and become king like he suggested, and just focus on my new family. But no, he wants to go to Thieves. He wants to destroy it because they don't accept him, and he wants to kill his brother. So despite the lessons he learns along the way, Paul and Ices is still focused on killing his brother and destroying Thebes.

I love family curses and family mistakes. I mean, God, Thebes and there they're both so cursed.

I love family curses and family mistakes. I mean, God, Thebes and there they're both so cursed.

Yeah, they're all cursed in Greece worthy in some way ancient Greece, I should say. Now, wies. So now you're talking about Titius, which is a very interesting guy. So if there's ever a character that's associated with the word consumo, it's Titius, who literally consumes his enemy. There's a number of arguments concerning what motivates Titius to perform his active cannibalism. In book eight. There's a scholar named Herskois who wrote in Patterns of Madness in Statius is the bid that Titius is driven by an excess of madness, which was held in check by that figure of Athena. But as Titius lay's dying, Athena steps away to go ask Jupiter's permission to grant Titius immortality because she thinks he deserves to become a god. But when she steps away, that madness consumes him, and he's driven to commit this terrible act. And when she comes back to tell him the good news, she kind of has this moment where she's like, oh, and she has to cover her eyes and walk away, and she doesn't offer him immortality because she's so disgusted by what he did. There's another scholar, Gervais, who was the professor who taught me the Thebiad at grad school. He has an article called Titius the Hero, which argues that epic heroism can't function in the the Biad, and instead of being modeled on epic heroes, Titius is more often modeled on the monsters that heroes vanquish in Titius's cannibalism results from a breakdown between those two identities.

Yeah, they're all cursed in Greece worthy in some way ancient Greece, I should say. Now, wies. So now you're talking about Titius, which is a very interesting guy. So if there's ever a character that's associated with the word consumo, it's Titius, who literally consumes his enemy. There's a number of arguments concerning what motivates Titius to perform his active cannibalism. In book eight. There's a scholar named Herskois who wrote in Patterns of Madness in Statius is the bid that Titius is driven by an excess of madness, which was held in check by that figure of Athena. But as Titius lay's dying, Athena steps away to go ask Jupiter's permission to grant Titius immortality because she thinks he deserves to become a god. But when she steps away, that madness consumes him, and he's driven to commit this terrible act. And when she comes back to tell him the good news, she kind of has this moment where she's like, oh, and she has to cover her eyes and walk away, and she doesn't offer him immortality because she's so disgusted by what he did. There's another scholar, Gervais, who was the professor who taught me the Thebiad at grad school. He has an article called Titius the Hero, which argues that epic heroism can't function in the the Biad, and instead of being modeled on epic heroes, Titius is more often modeled on the monsters that heroes vanquish in Titius's cannibalism results from a breakdown between those two identities.

M hm, that's Relliand.

M hm, that's Relliand.

I know I'm listening a lot of things, but it's just what it's like to study epic is you've got hundreds of years of people's opinions and you have to go through them and decide, well, what do I think based on what these people think?

I know I'm listening a lot of things, but it's just what it's like to study epic is you've got hundreds of years of people's opinions and you have to go through them and decide, well, what do I think based on what these people think?

Right?

Right?

So there was some research done by these two people named Braund and Gilbert who discuss how epic similes reflect the era of epic warriors, and they argue that Titius represents the negative manifestation of era in emotion, which usually benefits heroes in epic. So era means wrath, and we know from the Iliad that this is the motivating force that drives Achilles because it opens saying Goddess of the wrath of Achilles. So usually wrath is this sort of positive force because it drives the heroes to cheat their goals. But here Tidius he doesn't have He's he's immoderate in his wrath, so he can't control it and it just kind of drives him insane and he goes out of hand and not like the other heroes. So it's like that moment where Achilles desecrates Hector's body, but times ten, he's just he's just letting it get away with him.

So there was some research done by these two people named Braund and Gilbert who discuss how epic similes reflect the era of epic warriors, and they argue that Titius represents the negative manifestation of era in emotion, which usually benefits heroes in epic. So era means wrath, and we know from the Iliad that this is the motivating force that drives Achilles because it opens saying Goddess of the wrath of Achilles. So usually wrath is this sort of positive force because it drives the heroes to cheat their goals. But here Tidius he doesn't have He's he's immoderate in his wrath, so he can't control it and it just kind of drives him insane and he goes out of hand and not like the other heroes. So it's like that moment where Achilles desecrates Hector's body, but times ten, he's just he's just letting it get away with him.

That's the thing. Yeah, No, it's just the thing about like the Iliods starting with like saying of the wrath of Achilles is like as much as Achilles as a hero. I think that's what makes the Alien so interesting, is that it really is all about like him being over the top and it being like like, yeah, this is a story of like so called heroes, but also the whole thing revolves around the fact that this guy has a temper tantrum and like so much shit results from it that like you know, everyone's kind of fucked in all of these different ways, and so it's like sure, like wrath is motivating, but also it is destructive.

That's the thing. Yeah, No, it's just the thing about like the Iliods starting with like saying of the wrath of Achilles is like as much as Achilles as a hero. I think that's what makes the Alien so interesting, is that it really is all about like him being over the top and it being like like, yeah, this is a story of like so called heroes, but also the whole thing revolves around the fact that this guy has a temper tantrum and like so much shit results from it that like you know, everyone's kind of fucked in all of these different ways, and so it's like sure, like wrath is motivating, but also it is destructive.

Yeah, And in the Thibaya, it it's just that times ten. I like how you described that it's a guy having a temper tantrum and this it's Paul and Icy's having the temper trantrum. It's his turn to be king, but the Tiefs won't let him have his turn, so he's gonna destroy the city instead. And no one will get their turn right. It's like toddlers.

Yeah, And in the Thibaya, it it's just that times ten. I like how you described that it's a guy having a temper tantrum and this it's Paul and Icy's having the temper trantrum. It's his turn to be king, but the Tiefs won't let him have his turn, so he's gonna destroy the city instead. And no one will get their turn right. It's like toddlers.

Oh yeah, it's like toxic masculinity.

Oh yeah, it's like toxic masculinity.

Oh yeah, that's basically it. So there's here. This is an interesting note for you. So when Titius is laying there dying, he's delivered this mortal brolo mortal blow by a seven soldier named Melanipis, and Melanipis is lying there dying next to him, and Titius asks the RGUI soldiers around him to bring the body to him so he can like start eating it. And all of his soldiers who help move Melanipus's body to be consumed by Titius have ancestors tainted by familial violence. So the soldiers that bring the body to them have Tantalus Atreus like Keon and Onemias as their ancestors. So it's it's funny how Atrius can be someone's or ancestor, because he's kind of if you think about it, he should be just existing in mycene at this time because Atrius is the father of Agamemno, Titius is the faller of Dionity, so this is the generation before the fall of Troy, so it should be this like timeline like a straight line, but that's just all over the place. So Atrius can be contemporary but also an ancestor of one of these guys. So it's kind of interesting that way.

Oh yeah, that's basically it. So there's here. This is an interesting note for you. So when Titius is laying there dying, he's delivered this mortal brolo mortal blow by a seven soldier named Melanipis, and Melanipis is lying there dying next to him, and Titius asks the RGUI soldiers around him to bring the body to him so he can like start eating it. And all of his soldiers who help move Melanipus's body to be consumed by Titius have ancestors tainted by familial violence. So the soldiers that bring the body to them have Tantalus Atreus like Keon and Onemias as their ancestors. So it's it's funny how Atrius can be someone's or ancestor, because he's kind of if you think about it, he should be just existing in mycene at this time because Atrius is the father of Agamemno, Titius is the faller of Dionity, so this is the generation before the fall of Troy, so it should be this like timeline like a straight line, but that's just all over the place. So Atrius can be contemporary but also an ancestor of one of these guys. So it's kind of interesting that way.

Yeah, that is super interesting. That's like, I mean, I just yeah, that's one of my favorite things of like the ways that things just don't they don't match up. Chronology is not a thing, no.

Yeah, that is super interesting. That's like, I mean, I just yeah, that's one of my favorite things of like the ways that things just don't they don't match up. Chronology is not a thing, no.

And like it's a it's a nice way to think of even the ancient poets themselves are like, I don't know, I'm just gonna make Atreus be super old so it'll prove my own point. So he's like a grad student in that way. Now, in this moment of his death, Tidius kind of becomes the sphinx because he's devouring the thebans, so he fully transgresses that boundary between a hero and into a monster. It's weird that I'm so excited about him, But I used to really like the show Hannibal, So maybe that's why I like tidy Is so much. It's just a really interesting guy. I mean, I.

And like it's a it's a nice way to think of even the ancient poets themselves are like, I don't know, I'm just gonna make Atreus be super old so it'll prove my own point. So he's like a grad student in that way. Now, in this moment of his death, Tidius kind of becomes the sphinx because he's devouring the thebans, so he fully transgresses that boundary between a hero and into a monster. It's weird that I'm so excited about him, But I used to really like the show Hannibal, So maybe that's why I like tidy Is so much. It's just a really interesting guy. I mean, I.

I love the absolute weirdest people in Greek mythology, Like, I mean, I love that there is cannibalism because I mean again, this is Roman, but like Roman about Greek mythology, which is interesting in itself. But yeah, I mean, like cannibalism is very rare, but it is also Tantalus, you know, like it is like tantalism most famous, and then Thiistes too, especially if we're talking if like Atris and Thistes are ancestors when they should be contemporaries, Like those are your two most famous acts of cannibalism that result in crazy curses.

I love the absolute weirdest people in Greek mythology, Like, I mean, I love that there is cannibalism because I mean again, this is Roman, but like Roman about Greek mythology, which is interesting in itself. But yeah, I mean, like cannibalism is very rare, but it is also Tantalus, you know, like it is like tantalism most famous, and then Thiistes too, especially if we're talking if like Atris and Thistes are ancestors when they should be contemporaries, Like those are your two most famous acts of cannibalism that result in crazy curses.

Yeah, and I guess the same argument can be applied to the House of Atreus that by having this cannibalism connection, it's this sort of microcosm of their self destructive family. So instead of creating new life, they're destroying it and they're literally consuming it, so they're not being able to procreate, if that makes sense. So yeah, it's just it's a really interesting way to use cannibalism, so it's symbolic, but also in this particular Roman epic, it's there for the shock factor as well. Yeah.

Yeah, and I guess the same argument can be applied to the House of Atreus that by having this cannibalism connection, it's this sort of microcosm of their self destructive family. So instead of creating new life, they're destroying it and they're literally consuming it, so they're not being able to procreate, if that makes sense. So yeah, it's just it's a really interesting way to use cannibalism, so it's symbolic, but also in this particular Roman epic, it's there for the shock factor as well. Yeah.

Oh that's yeah, I love that phrasing. Though again you've got some good some good like gross and well said things.

Oh that's yeah, I love that phrasing. Though again you've got some good some good like gross and well said things.

I know it is really gross, and that one scholar I mentioned before Kyle Gervai, who was one of my professors. He has an article out comparing Statius, who's the author of this epic, to Quentin Tarantino, so he's basically the Tarantino with ancient Roman. There's a lot of blood, there's a lot of gore. People are like, it's entertaining, but it's a little bit too much, right, And that's kind of how this poetry from the historical period that produced this poem is viewed as this poetry of excess, and it's not. And for hundreds of year it was viewed as not being very good poetry and inferior to the poetry that came before it. But I thought we could talk some more about that, because that was all I was going to discuss about the by it itself, unless you had some questions about it.

I know it is really gross, and that one scholar I mentioned before Kyle Gervai, who was one of my professors. He has an article out comparing Statius, who's the author of this epic, to Quentin Tarantino, so he's basically the Tarantino with ancient Roman. There's a lot of blood, there's a lot of gore. People are like, it's entertaining, but it's a little bit too much, right, And that's kind of how this poetry from the historical period that produced this poem is viewed as this poetry of excess, and it's not. And for hundreds of year it was viewed as not being very good poetry and inferior to the poetry that came before it. But I thought we could talk some more about that, because that was all I was going to discuss about the by it itself, unless you had some questions about it.

I mean, it's so hard because of course I decided we wanted to record this so that we just wanted to talk about it. And of course I've read this, but I know the story, so it's it's interesting because I know the story that it's based on. You know, like I've covered I've covered what's the Europe thees I did the Phoenician women. I covered it under that version, as I find that interesting just because it focuses more on Jocasta. And it's yeah, because it's like, it's such a famous story, the Seven against Thebes, like it's all of it, right, but then this this Roman take that makes it more violent and more visceral and adds cannibalism and curses and stuff, is just so much more in and so I'm just more like now I'm merely excited to read it.

I mean, it's so hard because of course I decided we wanted to record this so that we just wanted to talk about it. And of course I've read this, but I know the story, so it's it's interesting because I know the story that it's based on. You know, like I've covered I've covered what's the Europe thees I did the Phoenician women. I covered it under that version, as I find that interesting just because it focuses more on Jocasta. And it's yeah, because it's like, it's such a famous story, the Seven against Thebes, like it's all of it, right, but then this this Roman take that makes it more violent and more visceral and adds cannibalism and curses and stuff, is just so much more in and so I'm just more like now I'm merely excited to read it.

Yeah, it's like it's like Avid, Like, I know you prefer ancient Greek sources, but you also love Avid because it all did. Yeah. He has this way of describing those myths in a way that really appeals to modern readers. Right, there's that, there's the path. Also, there's all this emotion, and there's betrayals and love and lust and everything. So the Roman writers are really good at adding the emotion to stories that sometimes the Greeks don't quite have.

Yeah, it's like it's like Avid, Like, I know you prefer ancient Greek sources, but you also love Avid because it all did. Yeah. He has this way of describing those myths in a way that really appeals to modern readers. Right, there's that, there's the path. Also, there's all this emotion, and there's betrayals and love and lust and everything. So the Roman writers are really good at adding the emotion to stories that sometimes the Greeks don't quite have.

Their Yeah, I think it. I always describe it as like, and this is just my own theory, but I think of it as because the Greeks these were their ancestral stories versus the Romans were like commenting on existing stories. The Romans didn't have the same connection historically to the stories, and so they they had this like different viewpoint on them. It's almost like they were more fictionalizing them, like they were the Hollywood making movies off of Shakespeare or something, you know. So it's like they had this huge disconnect in terms of time and culture. So they have this really different and much more dramatic and like cinematic take on these existing stories.

Their Yeah, I think it. I always describe it as like, and this is just my own theory, but I think of it as because the Greeks these were their ancestral stories versus the Romans were like commenting on existing stories. The Romans didn't have the same connection historically to the stories, and so they they had this like different viewpoint on them. It's almost like they were more fictionalizing them, like they were the Hollywood making movies off of Shakespeare or something, you know. So it's like they had this huge disconnect in terms of time and culture. So they have this really different and much more dramatic and like cinematic take on these existing stories.

Yeah, that's a really good way to put it, because they're so far removed from the history and the culture of ancient Greece. So in classical Greece, the Greeks were kind of driven by softursune, so like this idea that everything should be in order, everything should be like be moderated, so you don't have this excess of emotion. And it just kind of draws into philosophy as well on how to be a good person as you don't have these excess of emotion, whereas the Romans, they love their excess. They're like, let's go for it, let's make it as gory as we can.

Yeah, that's a really good way to put it, because they're so far removed from the history and the culture of ancient Greece. So in classical Greece, the Greeks were kind of driven by softursune, so like this idea that everything should be in order, everything should be like be moderated, so you don't have this excess of emotion. And it just kind of draws into philosophy as well on how to be a good person as you don't have these excess of emotion, whereas the Romans, they love their excess. They're like, let's go for it, let's make it as gory as we can.

Yeah, it's like hugely different people and time periods, and I think so often unless you're like deep in the world of the ancient Mediterranean, Like you often see them as much more contemporary than they were, at least when you're talking about the stories that we talk about. Like obviously a lot of their cultures were contemporary and existed alongside each other. But like if we're talking about the Iliad versus you know, Avid, or versus this guy versus the Thebia, like we've got if there's such a huge amount of time in between that you often forget just how many hundreds of years is in between these two periods, and so why they are so different, and like just how different they were as people and their stories and they're like the reasons they did things, the reasons they told stories, all these different things are just so different because there is so much time in between exactly.

Yeah, it's like hugely different people and time periods, and I think so often unless you're like deep in the world of the ancient Mediterranean, Like you often see them as much more contemporary than they were, at least when you're talking about the stories that we talk about. Like obviously a lot of their cultures were contemporary and existed alongside each other. But like if we're talking about the Iliad versus you know, Avid, or versus this guy versus the Thebia, like we've got if there's such a huge amount of time in between that you often forget just how many hundreds of years is in between these two periods, and so why they are so different, and like just how different they were as people and their stories and they're like the reasons they did things, the reasons they told stories, all these different things are just so different because there is so much time in between exactly.

And I know I mentioned Avid a lot, but there's a lot of time in between Avid and Stacius himself too.

And I know I mentioned Avid a lot, but there's a lot of time in between Avid and Stacius himself too.

So there's this where I meant to ask when he's from Yeah, yeah, okay.

So there's this where I meant to ask when he's from Yeah, yeah, okay.

So I can give you some historical context. So I'm excited about this. So you can't talk about Rome, I mean that the Baiad without talking about ancient Rome. So like I mentioned before that the Biad is an epic poem, and it's written in the Silver Age of Latin poetry. And to explain what that is, I have to talk about Augustus. I know you don't really like him, but we're going to talk about him a little bit. So after a series of terrible civil wars, Augustus becomes the first Emperor of Rome and he establishes this first imperial family, the Julia Claudians, and the importance of the imperial family, most notably the emperor himself, is established through a symage sorry a system of images and symbols and official art. The beginning of Augustus's rule is called the Golden Age, and poets of the Golden Age include Horace and Virgil, and they are writing to glorify the peace and prosperity that was brought by Augustus' reign. So the Golden Age was a period of political and cultural stability and harmony, whereas the Silver Age was marked by the descent into oppressive autocracy. So Avid is writing between the transition between the Golden and the Silver Age. So you have this piece and prosperity brought by Augustus at the beginning of his reign, and then he gets a little too used to power, he starts making these rules. In Auvid. We don't know what he did, but he got exiled. So he's one of the first of those Silver poets that kind of suffers for their poetry. And this poetry of the Silver Age is characterized by either a literature of escapism or protest the The Biad is written much later than Augustus and Avid, which was the Julia Claudian period. It was written under the reign of Domicion, who was the last of the Flavian emperors and notably the worst of them. So here we see this link of a lecture of escapism or possibly protests under the rule of a supposedly oppressive emperor. The link between emperors and poets is a really important one because epic poetry is a really difficult and time consuming form of art. In the class where we read the by it, our professor he had us try to write our own verse compositions, so we were writing dactylic exameter in Latin. It took us three months to do five lines live. Can you imagine doing twelve books of this? So you need to have the time and the resources to sit down and do it right. So the emperor is there to help facilitate the poetry, to make sure it gets written. But in return, your poetry has to serve to elevate the empire and the emperor in some way in return for that. In the Augustine age, they were was a sort of go betweens the emperor in the poet and there were guys named Miscella and Messinas who patronized the poets, like Horace and Virgil. I don't remember who Stacius's patron was per se, but his poetry is inextricably linked to dimission. He actually mentions the mission in the poem, and for a very long time the the Biad was considered like not a good poem because of this connection to dimission. And it's really interesting to see how that connection changed and evolved over time, because in Stacia's his own time, he was really popular. He's mentioned by name by Juvenile and even after he's dead in the medieval period and even in the Renaissance, he's still popular. He influenced a lot of the allegorical writings by medieval writers, and he was a big influence for Dante's Inferno. But around the eighteenth century, this view on Statius kind of changes. Statius is seen as a poet that's not a very good one, and his poem is just full of blood and violence and nothing else. And it's interesting to note that there's this decline in his popularity in the eighteenth century and instead we've got this horizon popularity of Virgil in the eighteenth century, where we're also seeing the rise of the nation state. So we know Virgil was writing under Augustus and his poetry kind of includes Augustine ideals of empire making, so we can see why the eighteenth century people would be more of a fan of Virgil when they're trying to colonize the world, right and until I.

So I can give you some historical context. So I'm excited about this. So you can't talk about Rome, I mean that the Baiad without talking about ancient Rome. So like I mentioned before that the Biad is an epic poem, and it's written in the Silver Age of Latin poetry. And to explain what that is, I have to talk about Augustus. I know you don't really like him, but we're going to talk about him a little bit. So after a series of terrible civil wars, Augustus becomes the first Emperor of Rome and he establishes this first imperial family, the Julia Claudians, and the importance of the imperial family, most notably the emperor himself, is established through a symage sorry a system of images and symbols and official art. The beginning of Augustus's rule is called the Golden Age, and poets of the Golden Age include Horace and Virgil, and they are writing to glorify the peace and prosperity that was brought by Augustus' reign. So the Golden Age was a period of political and cultural stability and harmony, whereas the Silver Age was marked by the descent into oppressive autocracy. So Avid is writing between the transition between the Golden and the Silver Age. So you have this piece and prosperity brought by Augustus at the beginning of his reign, and then he gets a little too used to power, he starts making these rules. In Auvid. We don't know what he did, but he got exiled. So he's one of the first of those Silver poets that kind of suffers for their poetry. And this poetry of the Silver Age is characterized by either a literature of escapism or protest the The Biad is written much later than Augustus and Avid, which was the Julia Claudian period. It was written under the reign of Domicion, who was the last of the Flavian emperors and notably the worst of them. So here we see this link of a lecture of escapism or possibly protests under the rule of a supposedly oppressive emperor. The link between emperors and poets is a really important one because epic poetry is a really difficult and time consuming form of art. In the class where we read the by it, our professor he had us try to write our own verse compositions, so we were writing dactylic exameter in Latin. It took us three months to do five lines live. Can you imagine doing twelve books of this? So you need to have the time and the resources to sit down and do it right. So the emperor is there to help facilitate the poetry, to make sure it gets written. But in return, your poetry has to serve to elevate the empire and the emperor in some way in return for that. In the Augustine age, they were was a sort of go betweens the emperor in the poet and there were guys named Miscella and Messinas who patronized the poets, like Horace and Virgil. I don't remember who Stacius's patron was per se, but his poetry is inextricably linked to dimission. He actually mentions the mission in the poem, and for a very long time the the Biad was considered like not a good poem because of this connection to dimission. And it's really interesting to see how that connection changed and evolved over time, because in Stacia's his own time, he was really popular. He's mentioned by name by Juvenile and even after he's dead in the medieval period and even in the Renaissance, he's still popular. He influenced a lot of the allegorical writings by medieval writers, and he was a big influence for Dante's Inferno. But around the eighteenth century, this view on Statius kind of changes. Statius is seen as a poet that's not a very good one, and his poem is just full of blood and violence and nothing else. And it's interesting to note that there's this decline in his popularity in the eighteenth century and instead we've got this horizon popularity of Virgil in the eighteenth century, where we're also seeing the rise of the nation state. So we know Virgil was writing under Augustus and his poetry kind of includes Augustine ideals of empire making, so we can see why the eighteenth century people would be more of a fan of Virgil when they're trying to colonize the world, right and until I.

Was just gonna yell lord colonialism.

Was just gonna yell lord colonialism.

Yeah, that's basically it. And it's not until the nineteen eighties where we see this rise in Statius again, So that's hundreds of years later. And this is also connected to the decline in the view of Virgil because there was a lot of scholarship being done in the nineteen eighties where readings of Roman history and Augustus are connected to twentieth century dictators. So there's this one scholar named from all Sime who kind of connects Augustus with Hitler a little bit and like Goebles in how he used this propaganda. So I'm not saying here that Virgils like Hitler, but there was this sort of rise in scholarship at that time connecting emperors to dictators. So going off that, if you're a Roman poet and you have to connect your poetry to the emperor and the empire in some way, what do you do when the emperor you're connected to is a bad one? Like can you outright say he's bad? Or do you have to be really clever with how you're writing. So that's an interesting way of reading that THEBIA it because if you look at the themes of self destruction and the themes of familial violence, and we're looking at the Julia o' Claudians and the Flavians, which are ultimately failed dynasties, right, So are they being punished? Are their dynasties ending because of the crimes of the people that came before? I don't know is that Waistatious is saying that's something someone could write a paper about it? Yeah?

Yeah, that's basically it. And it's not until the nineteen eighties where we see this rise in Statius again, So that's hundreds of years later. And this is also connected to the decline in the view of Virgil because there was a lot of scholarship being done in the nineteen eighties where readings of Roman history and Augustus are connected to twentieth century dictators. So there's this one scholar named from all Sime who kind of connects Augustus with Hitler a little bit and like Goebles in how he used this propaganda. So I'm not saying here that Virgils like Hitler, but there was this sort of rise in scholarship at that time connecting emperors to dictators. So going off that, if you're a Roman poet and you have to connect your poetry to the emperor and the empire in some way, what do you do when the emperor you're connected to is a bad one? Like can you outright say he's bad? Or do you have to be really clever with how you're writing. So that's an interesting way of reading that THEBIA it because if you look at the themes of self destruction and the themes of familial violence, and we're looking at the Julia o' Claudians and the Flavians, which are ultimately failed dynasties, right, So are they being punished? Are their dynasties ending because of the crimes of the people that came before? I don't know is that Waistatious is saying that's something someone could write a paper about it? Yeah?

Yeah, I mean certainly like you're writing this story, like, yes, it's grease, it's Greek mythology. Oh, it just happened to be these guys. You're like, oh, do you think they resemble the you know, dynasties that came before. Oh, it must be a coincidence. Hmmm.

Yeah, I mean certainly like you're writing this story, like, yes, it's grease, it's Greek mythology. Oh, it just happened to be these guys. You're like, oh, do you think they resemble the you know, dynasties that came before. Oh, it must be a coincidence. Hmmm.

Like there's there's an element of be the Biad that you're really gonna hate because in it we get the figure of Theseus. So Theseus kind of comes in just like save the day. So you know how in Antagony, after the war between the Teoples and Paul and Ices, Creon is the king of Thebes and Creon goes a little bit power man. Well, in the end of the biod, Creon and Theseus had this like single combat moment where Theseus and Athens kind of prevail over the violence of Thebes. So and he makes a Statius makes all these connections between of Theseus and Domitian. But even the ages themselves know that Theseus isn't quite a good guy. So what do you think Domitian would have thought of this connection between him and Theseus? So that's another thing someone could write a paperbom Oh, I'd like to read that.

Like there's there's an element of be the Biad that you're really gonna hate because in it we get the figure of Theseus. So Theseus kind of comes in just like save the day. So you know how in Antagony, after the war between the Teoples and Paul and Ices, Creon is the king of Thebes and Creon goes a little bit power man. Well, in the end of the biod, Creon and Theseus had this like single combat moment where Theseus and Athens kind of prevail over the violence of Thebes. So and he makes a Statius makes all these connections between of Theseus and Domitian. But even the ages themselves know that Theseus isn't quite a good guy. So what do you think Domitian would have thought of this connection between him and Theseus? So that's another thing someone could write a paperbom Oh, I'd like to read that.

Well, and Theseus though, Yeah, Theseus is so interesting because like he is like objectively shitty, but depending on how you wanted to see him, like you could see him as this like objectively really shitty dude, or you can see him as the guy who founded Athenian you know, or the laid the foundations for Athenian democracy. Like he also can very much be seen as like kind of an Aeneus figure almost where it's like he started the thing that would go on to be the great thing that they, you know, want to believe. So like I can see, you know, he does all this shit, but like he really is so often used in really similar propaganda style ways, like even this this feels like Athenian propaganda because like hello, like Theseus is a much later invention than the mythological characters that actually take part in this war. Theseus. It's like Theseus is not. He's very very much post you know, Iliad and Odyssey, and so I love when anyone tries to like stick him in in these weird places. He doesn't belong the way that he gets just put into these different things though, because there are a lot of cases where he's like kind of tucked in later as if like he played this important role in something where you're like, nah, like he was a later invention to make Athens feel good about themselves.

Well, and Theseus though, Yeah, Theseus is so interesting because like he is like objectively shitty, but depending on how you wanted to see him, like you could see him as this like objectively really shitty dude, or you can see him as the guy who founded Athenian you know, or the laid the foundations for Athenian democracy. Like he also can very much be seen as like kind of an Aeneus figure almost where it's like he started the thing that would go on to be the great thing that they, you know, want to believe. So like I can see, you know, he does all this shit, but like he really is so often used in really similar propaganda style ways, like even this this feels like Athenian propaganda because like hello, like Theseus is a much later invention than the mythological characters that actually take part in this war. Theseus. It's like Theseus is not. He's very very much post you know, Iliad and Odyssey, and so I love when anyone tries to like stick him in in these weird places. He doesn't belong the way that he gets just put into these different things though, because there are a lot of cases where he's like kind of tucked in later as if like he played this important role in something where you're like, nah, like he was a later invention to make Athens feel good about themselves.

I like the way you can compare him to Aeneas, because Aneas and the Eneid is really important for the Thebiad because a lot of the Thebiad looks back to the example set by Virgil's Eniod, but instead of just using the template that Virgil set, Statius is inverting the message of the Eneid. So there's some particular examples in there, Like women in the Eneid, they're considered to be a bad thing because they're delaying the hero from achieving his goal, but in the the Biad.