Conversations: The Feminism of Female Rage, Demeter's Winter Harvest w/ Ioanna Papadopoulou

Published Mar 1, 2024, 8:00 AM

Liv speaks with author Ioanna Papadapoulou about Greece in myth retellings, the goddess Demeter and her rage, and Ioanna's novel, Winter Harvest. Help keep LTAMB going by subscribing to Liv's Patreon for bonus content!

CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.

Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions.

Hi, Hello, welcome. This is Let's talk about miss Baby. And this is the third time that I have recorded this introduction because I keep being completely incapable of staying sounding like a rational human being who people would want to listen to. I'm live, I'm the host, and normally I'm completely hinged. But right now everything in my life is bad and everything in the world is so much worse. So we're just all having a time. But thankfully, thankfully, at the third time recording this, I'm going to keep that horror too minimum. Today I am here with the first episode in Women's History Month episodes, which I mean, with the state of things, what's the point. But they do give me a theme. They give me something to work off of. I talk about women in this podcast in every single episode. It's the entire point. But see, in Women's History Month, I can focus on certain women. I can have a theme, something to work towards. I've already got incredible episodes planned dreamed up. This month is gonna be fun. I hope that's provided I can function as a human being. I've got high hopes. But today, thankfully, we have an incredible conversation that I recorded months ago when I was a functioning adult who didn't feel like she was gonna cry at every moment. I spoke with the absolutely wonderful, wonderful you Wanna Papadoppolo.

She has written.

I just I don't even know how to get into this because I'm just so excited. I Wanna has written a novel about Demeter, but like the Demeter that I didn't know I needed an angry, angry Demeter. I think the Demeter we all need right now, the feminine rage Demeter. And we had just the most fun talking about Demeter as a character about Iwana's novel Winter Harvest.

It.

I mean, Demeter is fucking wonderful. And if you didn't already gather from her name, Iwana is Greek. She's from Thessaloniki, and so we also just talked about Greece, Greek culture, writing Greek mythology, as a Greek. It's important that we also have Greek voices in this realm. It's incredibly important. The more we telling the better, but the more retellings by Greek people even better, because it's their culture and while we've all been able to kind of like take it and use it like it's ours, it isn't. It's theirs, And so I'm just I'm utterly thrilled to have you on the show. And I really hope I'm not butchering your name, but my Greek is only coming along a tiny bit. We had so much fun, We have so much fun. We're keeping in touch. We're just gonna like chat and be pals now, which is truly a joy. Demeter is so interesting. This book is so fascinating. I fucking love an angry woman and that is what we have here. And also just like a conversation about an angry Demeter, because Demeter, of all people, deserves.

To be angry.

Conversations the feminism of female rage, Demeter's Winter Harvest with Iwana Papadoppolo. I'm so excited to talk about Demeter. I'm so excited to talk about your book. I just kind of want to hear every single thing. But mostly I'm excited you are now going to be the second person of like fully Greek descent who I've talked to you on the show about their novels about Greek mythology, and I love that that's happening more and more so. I mean, okay, clearly, I just want to talk about everything. But why why Demeter, what were you wanting.

To do with your book? Tell me whatever you want to know and we'll go from there.

All right, perfect. So the story start when I was a little girl, and I was first introduced to a Greek mythology, all the.

Way back in the early two thousands in the Saloniki in northern Greece, where I got my first books about Greek mythology.

Started like learning and really liking this part of my culture. And I loved the story of Dimitter there because I thought she was so bad ass. I thought she was so cool because she was the only one that was really strong and really independent from all the goddesses of the Catherine, and she was this person that had managed to force her wheel on Zeus and kind of one. And I always in my head and my personal canon of Greek mythology, she was like the cool goddess of the Earth, the third really important, Like in my head, it wasn't Haydes, it was hair As, like that third really powerful deity. And as I was growing up and learning English and seeing how Greek mythology was viewed in the Western world and in English speaking books, it was always such a huge sad point in my stories that Dimitor was mostly depicted as a grieving mother that lost that coolness and that strength and that idea of that independence that I loved as a little girl and I continue to love. So as I was reading more Greek mythology, and I started also having certain personal issues with the Greek mythology the tellings that were being created, because I felt that there were missing certain things about Greece, about Gece is a place rather than the characters. I thought that I'm gonna try to write my own and I thought, if there's gonna be one an Syne mythologist story that I will attempt to write, it can't be anything but Demeter.

Yeah, I love that so much. Demeanor.

Demean is absolutely fascinating. And I do think that she is so often like set aside, like you're saying, as this grieving mother or just as this like any old part of the Olympians, Like she doesn't she doesn't stand like sort of above them in most of the you know the ways. That's certainly yet like you're saying, the English speaking world takes in Greek mythology, and I think, I mean that's so in large part because like for the last couple few you know, maybe a thousand or just one hundred, but all of it years. You know, these stories have been retold to us by men who just see her as that because you know, we have the homericim to Demeter, that's her main surviving source. You know, it's like the one thing that survives in great detail exactly, and so yeah, that's all they go with. But I'm with you. Yeah, like she's utterly fascinating. She's an Earth goddess. She is inherently, like without a doubt, one of the most powerful goddesses.

And what I really found interesting, especially for my research, is how much people speculate when they study mythology is a science because that exists. You can study mythology outside of the specific place, not the thing that is probably reimagining and a remnant of an evil, older fertility deity, and that's why she has a lot of these archetypes that don't match with the rest of the gods. And the other thing that I found really interesting, and obviously it's kind of a different tradition, but I also thought it was really interesting as a connection is that I don't know, if you're aware of the tradition of mythology.

Yes, question mark, No, so I am. But it's become kind of like a running joke on the show that I try to avoid talking about it too much.

Okay, because it is I shouldn't so confusing.

That's fine, I want to talk about it then.

No, no, you can feel free.

No, no, no, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Demeter in the Orphic tradition, for sure.

Because in the Orphic tradition, some of the references to hair are that Rhea becomes Demeter when the world is remade, because Zeus swallows the world and remakes it. And I felt that again was a really interesting connection to the idea of demean or something far older than perhaps in the rest of the world. So although I didn't do anything with the orphic tradition, we don't need to refer to it ever again in this podcast. I thought it was a really interesting side notes that even in that other so different tradition, this idea of oldness inside dimeter was there.

Yeah, I mean it.

I mean, it's not any kind of coincidence that there are all of these layers of like Mother Earth, fertility goddesses, right, Like there really aren't any other gods that have that same like sort of repetitive nature down the generations. You know, we have Gaya, and then we have Rahea, and then we have Demeter, and like that's so indicative of this like greater, more ancient power. Like so many of the gods, like you know, they're based in these older concepts very often, particularly I think the goddesses, like from that time when you know, we think that goddesses might have been more worship than the men, and then they get these remnants passed down and then the remnants become you know, what we know of as demean. But she would have started as something so much bigger.

Yes, And definitely the literature that has remained for us is also a problem for Dimeter as well, because, as you said, the vast majority of works that she might have started have not been recorded. If theyre were, I don't even know if they're were. So I got for my own research, I got most of my sources actually from scholarly kind of works, from geographers like Pasanias, from people like pseudo Apollodorus. So there were like beats and bobs here and there that you collected and you got a little bit more of an idea, but none of them on their own are really enough of a material for you to kind of learn to love dimitter from the original material.

That makes me think of how Hestia is often handled too, like in this way where she's almost like too important for literature to have survived, or rather that like like the way I see Hestia and I feel like, you know, you might agree it's kind of similar to Demeter, is that, like she was so important on a day to day level, Like the ancient Greek people were so invested in her in their like daily lives that it just kind of meant there was no need to put her into these you know, dramatic stories of you know, hurting mortals or doing weird things. Like it's almost like she was above that because she was so important to an actual human living their life.

No, that's absolutely the case. I mean, even in modern Greek, the word estea is still part of our way of describing the home and of describing hospitality. Even so, Yeah, at least I love it feels that the more important you wear. Actually that's a really interesting concept and I've never considered that the more you're part of everyday life, the less you are a fictional thing exactly.

Yeah, I love it.

I think it like it's both frustrating because we want to read more, but when you see it that way, it's really empowering and interesting and kind of beautiful, you know.

And also now makes me think of Hestia is actually quite an important character in my book. I am thinking it quite different. It does play a role, but I kind of have tried to give her a role in between the meats because I don't actually have needs to use for her, and so I kind of tried to make her have a role in between those meats. But I'm now thinking, can I go rewrite my book and use that idea more? Can we just delay there? Because that's so interesting? Now I'm now thinking, do I need to write a Hestian novel? Now?

Please?

Oh my god, could you imagine? I would love that so much? Please write a Hastian novel.

I don't know what I would write, but.

I know in a least it's one of those things. It's like, I think that's what makes certain characters, Demeter and Hestia among them, like so interesting as as characters for retellings, because there is so little to work off of that. It is both frustrating because you don't have as much to go on as and as much to be inspired by. But it also means that these characters are like completely open ended. You can make them whatever you want them to be, whatever you like believe them to be.

Yes, I mean, I wrote Winter Harvest trying to be really close to the myths, like I tried to not allow myself too much space beyond them. I tried to focus on being creative in the space of connecting the myths rather than in the myths themselves, because I felt that because Dimitter doesn't really have any other representation, let's start by being as true as possible and then hopefully that will inspire someone after me to write a more free interpretation of her myths. But I tried to piece together these myths, but on the few times, and actually there were only really two works of literature that I had. I tried for those two to be really close. So I have the Homeric him to Demeter, which is the more popular one, but there is also a Hymn to Demeter by Kalimahu's And I also was quite streact myself, although it's not as detailed as the Homeric quin. So for these two parts of the story, I tried to be quite streact with myself to not really deviate too much. But then because so many of the other myths that I used, I only really had a small description of them from geographers or from scholars, I then was really free to do whatever I wanted. So I tried on the small parts that they actually was something that lasted through the centuries and I could use as a basic material to stay true to that.

I feel that same way whenever I'm talking about the myth. So I love that so much, like I particularly on the show, like I don't deviate at all, Like if we don't know that, I'm just gonna say that, And I love that, like I want to be talking about, you know, exactly how the ancient Greek saw them, like as far as we can tell now. Often ask me like, oh, what do you think this character would think about that? And I like never have an answer because I don't like to think about it in that way, Like I want to think about it more of like like culturally, like what they believed, versus seeing these these people as like kind of you know, like these fictional characters that like I can interpret what they would have thought. Like, No, I want to work off like just the ancient sources, even if even if they give us nothing like Hestias or whatever, you know, where we have like literally nothing about her.

I think that there is value in both. I just felt that for that book it wasn't the place to deviate. And in other kind of works I've done, I would possibly deviate because there would be more freedom, or there would be more material, so there's more variation, so there's more to work with. But I'm already kind of afraid that if all you know of demitor A is the grieving mother, then you read my dimitter, You're going to have a bit of a shock. And I want to be able to defend myself by being very true to the sources. Because I did not write the book so much time to think of the historical side, So I've not tried to mimic a specific period of Ancwing Greece. I've just more created a wider world of how I was taught answering Greece, but mixed in with issues of contemporary Greece. But still, like said, in a suit of historical element of the past. But what was really interesting in this book is that a lot of the issues that I discussed and a lot of the perspectives that I used to tell dimeter story I think could have transferred to early twentieth century, even part of my family and other Greek family dynamics of the late twentieth century, early twenty first century of Greece, and especially the remnants of the older generation, and I would find that a lot of these stories can still hold and can be it told in a very contemporary Greek setting.

So hmmm. I love that I kind of didn't.

Try to say that this is me telling a historical story. I'm telling you a mythological story, and within that I've created an idea of the past and a world where it's quite timeless and it's quite shapeless, but so very Greek that the place is kind of the most important thing, not so much the time, if that makes sense. And I think that's why some people obviously, yeah, I haven't picked up the anachronisms, but I kind of think, but if you are a deity, how much time matters? And these myths are timeless And because they're timeless, they're anachronistic.

Oh yeah, I mean even just like the sources that we have. You know, I think something that people don't think of it so much if they don't, you know, live in this world, is the amount of time that even the sources that we have spanned, right, Like, you can't really talk anachronisms when when the start to finish years of just the ancient sources are like at least a thousand years worth of time. You know, like, yeah, what what is an anachronism when the stories of these gods and characters have spanned a full thousand years?

Absolutely, and people also forget that this wasn't a really central religion in the way that we now think of religions. So different colds, different variations all kind of merge together. And that's why you do have, for so many characters, so many different variations of mix. Even if you don't go to something as far as the orphics, you still have different birth genesis, different things, different places, And you just kind of need to love that because if you can't love this confusion, then all you're really trying to do is what makes me the most angry, which is that you're trying to pick your favorite and force it upon others. It's okay to pick it, but you can't ignore the fact that someone else can pick something else. And if I can go on a slight tangent as a Greek person, I think that this probably one of my greatest annoyances with a lot of the retailings which I read and I love and I give my money to like. I don't want anyone to go and say I don't like Madeline Miller or anyone like that. I've enjoyed those books, and I'm really glad they've been written. I'm really glad I read them. But at the same time, they've created an idea of Greece that it's not quite Greece. I think what they've done, and it always lightly this disjoins me from the stories because I am so close to them and I know them so well. Is that people forget that these places are real, Like when you grow up, you learn these stories as part of the cosmos and the genesis of your own home town or your home country. They are not this far away thing that it might be for someone living in Canada who doesn't think of themselves as part of this place. So I always feel that they miss that, And because they miss that, they miss and ignore elements of Greek mythology and Greek history even that don't really fit the West. And I think that's partly something that created very long time ago. And obviously contemporary Greece is very influenced by an Eastern culture because it has changed and he has evolved and he has continued. But even the answering Greek myths are having elements that you can see are there in contemporary Greek society as pathogenesis of problems, and you just need to to obviously either accept them and seek answering. Greek mythology is not this lovely fictional world, or you need to accept that there's another side to it or another version of it, because all really mythologies as fun fiction upon fan fiction, upon fan fiction, world by world, culture by culture, eighth by age. Somebody has given their slight take on what these set of characters do, and it's great. I love it. I love the feeling of comfort being able to read these characters again and again and again. But I do feel that people forget that they are real places and they have real The names are there and people use those names and feel those names, And there's sides of Greek mythology that don't fit the West, and that's okay. You don't need to like them, but you can't ignore their presence there.

Yeah, no, I I think that's so important. I want to I want to hear and say so many things based on on everything you just said. Like obviously, you know, I'm very much coming from this Canadian standpoint, uh, but I do fortunately live in the sources in a way that that you know. Obviously, this is not to say that I understand the cultural aspects. But what you were saying earlier about you know, what was the phrase you used. It really like spoke to me just like loving the confusion. I guess you know of all the different variations and sources and and all the contradictions, And that is something that is my absolute favorite part of this job, is loving the contradictions. I want to bask in the eight different versions of somebody's story and I want to like try to just piece apart why each one is the way it is, because I think that that is the most interesting part of mythology. So I'm just with you completely from that cultural perspective. I would love to know, you know, if you have examples that come to your mind of of the ways that you know your experience as a Greek person growing up in Thessalniki. You know how this how you feel that that the culture really you know, either either differs from the retellings if you want to be that specific, or if just like you want to talk about it from that cultural perspective, and you know kind of how you live in the sources in that really unique way.

So obviously a lot of these myths and these the Catherine stories are more from southern Greece, so in northern Greece, so was slightly different. But I think I'm trying to find something specific to say because I don't want to go into something really generic. Is that we use ancient Greek concepts, names, stories in our everyday speet is like nearly jokes as expressions. And one of the things that it always comes to mind, and I had never thought of it as much until this person pointed it out to me, is that every language is an expression of thought, a unique expression of thought, and that's why you can never have fully synonyms between two different languages. And Greek is a really rich language, and all these gods and these words from the ancient past are expressions of thought that have stayed in Greece, so in our everyday speech and in our everyday life. They are there because you would just call Ammamuthian an attempt to do something as an iraklia attempt because heracles, that's how he would have thought, or you would have expressions of how this person is like Zeus because of their bad behavior, especially now that we're moving into a more gender equality attempt and trying to look at sexual assault in a different way. And people also forget that these plays of answering Greek are performed on a yearly basis in Greece, and a lot of times, a lot of these plays are retellings themselves. I have not experienced retailings only through these very small forms. I have had the privilege, and I'm really lucky that I have been able to do that, that I can see the same play performed by different actors nearly every year, and very times performed in different settings, even if the story remains the same. And at the same time time, when I walk down the street, even in a place like the Saloniki, I am constantly having little clues here and there of this past of the Gorgon of Thermaikos and of how we were taught and discussed the ecological problems of the port of the Saloniki with the gorgon the stories of like even Greek TV where the gorgan of the Saloniki actual Thesaloniki, the princess like was a historical person who was there and was complaining about the pollution of ag and c. So it is kind of joky. It's not always serious, but it's part of everyday life, even for people that don't necessarily know the details. And I think that's more the difference that you might not know that this is why you call it or this is why you say it, but that's where it comes from. And all that really has happened to someone like me is that maybe I'm just a bit more aware of it. And again, I want to read ring more than anything. Please write the stories, Please read the myths. Tell me your most extraordinary takes on Greek mythology. Just don't tell me this is it. That's more my thing.

Yes, oh no, that's like that's you've basically just like summarized my podcast with that phrase, or like at least how it's been for the past couple of years, Like like there's no finite anything. There is no there is no canon, There is no right or wrong answer to a question about Greek mythology, you know, I mean, except when there is, but they're rare, you know, I think, yeah, I absolutely love that. And and like so I've you know, been trying to learn Greek and from just like say the I want to say it's more than a handful of words, because I definitely you know, I know, I know like decent number of words. I just can't form a lot of sentences yet. But the biggest thrill for me in learning Greek, just as this enormous nerd for Greek mythology who has read an absurd amount, is learning a word and then immediately understanding it's mythological context and then like getting this real visceral thrill of being like, oh my god, I understand you know how this word came to be in modern Greek.

You know.

Like one of my favorite examples is and I tell when I tell my friends this, and like they're not usually into Greek mythology, and they just kind of like like okay, live like sure, but I I like, every time, you know, I've been over there with somebody I've been like okay, so you know, I explain like, you know, the the niceties Kalimea, Kalispera, kale Nikta, like just you know, saying good good morning, good day, good evening to people, and you go gay like okay, So Kali Spera, you know, it has this connection to hesperites because they are, you know, the goddesses of like the evening and the west and and then of course you know Kali Nikta, Oh we've got that. That's nixt She's the goddess of night like and all these different kind of connections. And so just from that perspective, learning those connections via the language has been such a just like a nerdy thrill for this like do weeby little Canadian? But I can completely see what what you mean just in that tiny way that I that I understand, and I I love hearing more about you know how how it actually like impacts you, you know, growing up there. I'm trying not to just like be like, oh my god, I just love Greek culture so much, but I like, I do, I really do. So Canada has like no culture. We're just like a colonial mess. So I like latched on. I'm like something that culture, oh it is, it's just not a great one, you know, not that Greek villages is all roses and daisies.

But I think like in every kind of culture and every kind of history, you need to celebrate the joys and try to fix the tears.

I like that. Yeah.

Yeah, well, I'm utterly fascinated hearing about I mean, all of this in this way. I'm like, just give me more of literally everything. But you know, I also want to make sure that we're talking enough about like your book. I want people to want to read it, not least because like, I'm just so fucking thrilled that Demeter gets a book, like, you know, to give my listeners like a slight backstory to how you know, you and I are talking. But I saw somebody tweet about your book, and I was like, oh my god, like Demeter gets her own story. Like I lost my mind. I was just so excited that not only that this book you know, exists, but I wanted to hear all of your thoughts about her. So, I mean, you've talked about it a little bit, but do you want to talk more about like what you wanted to do with Demeter, Like on a on a story level, like what you wanted to to sort of emphasize about her, because she is this goddess who is sort of like deeply underrepresent entered in certainly like you're saying, like English speaking Western, you know, retellings and all of that.

Oh yes, I mean, thank you for telling letting me I can tell you what I wanted to say, what I was too afraid to say. I think there were myths about that. I definitely am like putting it as an entrance, as an entry myself that I want to talk about the myth I was too scared to add. But a kind of beginning on the story is that, first of all, I'd like to say to everyone listening that please don't read, Please read the book, please buy the book, but please don't expect the book to be the story of Demitor being this wonderful representation of a female heroine. My Demeter is not a hero, and I did not write her as a hero. I actually specifically followed as much as the myths would allow a corruption arc and created the story of how she became a villain. So you are not going to find in My Demeter a person that changes the world for the better.

This as a character that has within her understanding of the world feelings about injustice, seeing injustice in other situations, but is still.

So ingrained in this power dynamic of patriarchy that she is expressing in herself. She only reacts and actually opposes it when these power dynamics directly influence her. She's not going to be your champion of women or your champion of the downtrodden. She cares about herself and about her life, and actually the more she gets to fight for herself, the more she accepts that sees a person of power and should be treated the same as the men, rather than the men are not kind, if that makes sense. Like she only kind of sees it as that there's this higher arch of the world and I'm going to be on top. How much on top can I be? And she's maybe a little bit more sympathetic than other characters because she's also been a victim, so she's also kind of experienced how unfair it is, and she would maybe f she lived in the world right as she wanted not to be like that as much. And that's where Hestia comes a lot into play. How she would have really liked the dot Catherine to be led by Hestia as they wear inside the stomach. But then she sees this brother who has the different upbringing from them as this corrupting influence that took away whatever family they had created inside the stomach and they became just forces the thought instead of joined together. So the book really discusses issues of family, and it isn't if you condense it very much. It's a family drama. It is, and its core how people fight for who is going to be the leader of the family now the father is dead and two people fighting for the custody of a child. At its core as that, but obviously it is packaged with a lot more things, so it doesn't only read as that. But definitely parenthood and family dynamics are really important. Definitely female role in patriarchy is also really important because patriarchy wouldn't exist without feminine people. Feminine people women of any size and form that they are supporting the patriarchy because they don't want to lose the little bit of power they have through it. So you suddenly see a deity that can fight for the weaker, understands the applied and doesn't care.

I love this, So you're making me so happy.

And at the same time you have this mother and that's what like was why when I found that Meath, I was like, yes, somebody needs to write this. I'm gonna do it because nobody else seems interested to do it. That as willing to end the world for her child, that is willing to go to this levels of distraction and at the same time abundance to other children.

Hmmm.

I just observed trying not to just be like so happy about this description.

No, so it's just basically a Demeter that is full of contradictions that but it's also very much I think if you try to read it trying to say, how is she gonna be the hero that's gonna save us, You're not gonna find it. Could she have been maybe if she had a different influence as she became an adult, But at this point and this trajectory of mythology, see is a goddess that and I like to say that sees Demeter the Sito, the one who feeds and yet to starve the world.

I just okay, I love all of this. It it just feels so Demeter, absolutely like the Demeter that I think of. But also I think that the way you're talking about this is such a great it's just such a great example of I mean, not an example, but like I mean, you know, all of these retellings that have been coming out, and you know, I agree with you, like the more the merrier, Like I'm so glad there are so many. I'm so glad that most of them feature women. I think that that's so important. And I love you know, all the different ways and we can see them because they are you know, there are countless ways that you can you know, view the Greek mythology broadly. But at the same time, there is also this habit that publishers have. I won't blame the authors, it's typically publishers this habit to call everything that features a woman feminist, and I think that that is detrimental to the idea of feminism, this idea of equality. Like feminism is not you know, some ideal, perfect world where nothing is wrong. Feminism is simply the notion that women can be equal and should be equal to men. And so to me, it sounds like like your book is almost that in its most sort of like purest form, where you know, Demeter is not a heroine, like you're saying, but she is equal to the men, and and like, it's a great example of how, you know, a woman trying to be as equal to the men in that kind of context can be like just as corrupting. And I think that's so fascinating to look at it that way, and it just feels it feels honest in a way that I think a lot of times, you know, these are written to be happy stories, and that's fine, but personally, when I read Greek mythology, I see very few happy stories. And I like the idea that there is this darkness and that there is like, you know, that Zeus is such a corrupt and broken leader that if someone is trying to rival him, they almost have to become just as corrupt and broken as he is. And that, you know, that's equality in its own, very specific way.

And it's a very Greek I want to say. I think element that we always find something negative in everything. We're quite persumous, or we are too optimistic, we're two extremes. But I think that that's exactly it. I consider this a feminist book, but not in the sense that it's feminist, because it allows this female cruelty, and I think there needs the space for female wrath, female rage, female cruelty, and I think because it does allow a space for that to be explored, it doesn't mean it's going to be liked. Like there's loads of great stories in literature that you're not meant to like the character, but you still want to hear their story. So that's what I wanted to do. And as I said, there are there is one specific thing that I did not dare to include it because I thought that I can't. First of all, I don't think I can do it justice, but secondly I don't know if an audience could take it. Obviously within the story, Demeter is also raped. That has happened. There is a myth in Pasanias where this is how she has her second child and third child, the twins Despina whose name we don't know, like the mestress and ari On the horse, but one Persephon mean is like settled in that coming back every year that side of the story is done. There's another myth which is about Yacion, who is I think, if I remember correctly, a prince, and how in Corinth Demitt is so intrigued by his outside appearance the same chance him to go and sleep with her, and I thought, well, this is basically a god is raping a man. And I thought, but I don't know if I don't think that's why I didn't do it. And I didn't I didn't think I could do it justice. First of all, I don't think that I would be able to convince an audience that has already seen Dimore do really horrible things to also see her at the very end rape. And I thought, I'm not gonna include it. But if I ever ever dared to write a sequel to that book, which no plans to, that would be the story I would write how she becomes this person that has this long term relationship from all terms and accounts with this person, but has stolen their life in a way that I think when male gods rape women, they tend to be married, They tend to have a life beyond it. But if you are the lover of a male prince, would you use a goddess allow them to also be married? It seems that in that idea of gender hierarchy, which is totally unfair, Like don't think that I agree with it, but it's okay for you as the god to take someone's wife but also let them have her. But as a female goddess, it seems that you couldn't possibly have a man that is also someone else's man. Makes sense, And then I thought that does really takes away even more from your life. And it's obviously inequality even between the gods, because there is one specific goddess that said that. I can't remember now the source or anything, but I think it's the Goddess of the Dawn who had a lover. Head.

Yeah, she does that too.

And she had this human lover. And one of the myths I thinks says male gods are really scared of female goddess is having human lovers.

And yeah, yeah, I want to find that source now.

I'm going to try to find it. I can't remember it. I'm really sorry. It just came to me right now, and about how because they're so scared when a female deity has a human male lover, it is a much bigger element of danger than when a male god has a human lover that is female or male. It doesn't matter because in that sense of gender equality and gender power dynamics, there comes the god who is higher, but then the man who should be higher than women. That confusion between which side which element is more important to create the proper family dynamic and hierarchy of relationship is so confusing that they just can't have it. A woman should only be met and should only be sleeping with a man that is of equal or higher standard. Going to someone below her and her having that power because of her class or her power in the case of gods is so disruptive just as a concept, And obviously that's the case even if you look at history at a later point, because a man could marry a poorer woman and elevator a woman can't. And I actually, you know me anything is that I'm also an act your story, and I actually have a specific artist's life where that's exactly what happened. Yeah, so this is say, what happens in my head, This is how I live.

No, I find that utterly fascinating, and it's really like it's opened up a lot of thoughts from in my head about the way that this does work. Because I think you're so right, but I also think there's like another level happening, which is that like so like you're saying, you know, women can be the lovers.

Of gods and their husbands.

There's no issue there, you know, like it's never you know, it's never going to be a problem. But I also think that this all it really speaks to the few instances we have of when gods, male gods try or succeed in having male human lovers, because even those cases, like, you know, I think it's just like it further emphasizes the gender because we have a number of instances of that. Almost all of them result in the human, the mortal, dying during the attempt at becoming a lover of a god or you know, the one example I can think of where you know, the mortal doesn't die is Ganymede with Zeus, and his life is is is still irreparably changed. He doesn't get to return home or behave like a mortal or Mary. He has to live as Zeus's cup bear on Olympus, and so like, even even in those cases where a male human mortal is involved, they there still has this dynamic, like you're saying, where where like it is still totally different from the way women are treated. And I think that like it's it's obviously tragic in the case of the men you know, dying is is equally shit, But it does say so much about the gender dynamics because the women are just this like sort of sort of toy to be used by the gods and then like, but the husbands still get to keep them because they're equally like their husband's toy in this world, whereas when the gods do you know, want to take a male lover, like that can't even happen. They can't become a toy because they're a man, so something else has to happen, and that.

Usually is death.

But it's still like a very interesting you know, look at the way that these gender dynamics do work. And you're right about the few women who take mortal the few goddesses, I should say, who take mortal lovers, like like Demeter and Easion and Eos the Dawn and I'm gonna forget who it was Typhonus. I think those cases are also tragic, but also like they're typically assault, but they they also result in I don't know the story of the Azeon actually, like in terms of the end result, but like for Eos, you know, she she abducts Typhonis and and takes him as a lover, but then she like I think it's this one. There's a few different stories that kind of resemble it, but I think of this as the one where she like asks for him to be immortal so that she could live with him forever, but she like forgets or zoos tricks her or whatever, but she he doesn't get agelessness, so he just like lives to be old forever and just like sort of falling apart in age, but like doesn't die. And so it also like, you know, the women can't still can't even have what they want, you know, even obviously it's non consensual, and that's it's horrific, but it still has this dynamic of like a goddess can't can't get you know, even immortal lover in the way that a god can.

Yeah, no, I think, And it's incredibly interesting as well as to the fact that this happens, and it's tragic as well. And I think the reason why going back to Demitter is that she is also quite a unique example. Think of an unweeded goddess that never weds, never has in any kind of meat I've read e merriage is an unwed mother. She is a mother of many fathers, which is very much a male thing. I think she is a very masculine maybe no masculine on the right word. There is definitely a male element in her character that I don't think any other goddess has, because all the other the goddesses that don't have husbands that I can think of are usually in the DoD caafine at least. Maybe the Titans are a little bit different. But in the do the cafuine you have all of them are virgins. So their way to be unwired is to not have that pleasure in life is like the censorship if human female pleasure, but demitter is like I'll have that, I'll have this and you can do anything about it. And it does again point to that oldness, because I think there is some proverbial myths or sources that say that both hate doesn't Poseidon wanted to marry her, like yeah, and then one of them, in one myth rapes her, the other takes her daughter. There's a lot to unpick there, but I found that incredibly interesting because even in contemporary standards in Greece, for example, I would say that an unwed mother would still receive some comments from certain people. It would not be necessarily look down on, but it would be something that would be discussed, especially in more rural places, especially in smaller communities, or by older relatives. And definitely if you went back to even when my mom gave birth to me, it was just thirty years ago, I think it would not be easy to be an unwed mother the system and the community in the society. And yet you see that desk goddess that, because of all these situations, has a more i would say, a different kind of independence than other goddesses, is still not top dog, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, it makes me think of what I love about Aphrodite, who you know, is very much married, but she still lives in that very similar role because while she's married to Hephaistus, she does not have children by him. She has children by other men and so and I've always loved the strength that comes with her character in that, Like you know, even when Zeus tried to make her less powerful by having her marry Hephaistus, she just still was like, nah, like I am. You know, I am a very powerful goddess. I'm going to continue to do what I want, and what I want is Aris, you know, among others. And I love that about her, but it you know, what you're saying about the the ancientness of Demeter also applies to Aphrodite, and so I think that that connection is really interesting because yeah, like Aphrodite is of course based in like these Eastern goddesses of like similar values, and so it remains the same where these two goddesses, you know, have this kind of under the surface power that the gods, and you know, the patriarchal nature of the stories as they exist now has tried to like you know, break them down, turn them into something less powerful than they actually are. But you can kind of piece out these strands that still exist that show, you know, the more ancient power that that still kind of exists within them despite all.

The attempts at at sort of taking them down.

Oh definitely. And obviously, like with Demeter, Aphrodite's power is not so much when she does it as when she doesn't do it. Like with a law of these gods, their powers are that I will rise a wave, I will throw a thunderbolt. But with these goddesses, their power is when they stop, when they give up. That's the danger of those and it's obviously something I slightly touched upon I didn't really explore in the book, but that what they really wanted. What they wanted, I don't know what they wanted in my book. They wanted was to give these more abstract powers to the female goddesses and then create nearly a bustardization of that element, like the woman that the goddess of matrimony is a cheated woman. As the protector of women, heir panishes women more than anyone else and is so jealous and it's so unfair to them. And there you see that there's powerlessness and the fact that FS is gone, actually nothing might happen. But with Hestia, with with Aphrodity, with Demit, their power comes actually in the threat of their absence. And obviously I don't I can't think of a myth where Aphrodity actually exercises that power. But that's what Demeter does. Demeter refuses her power to the world, and it's catastrophic, and it obviously shows that as an allegory of feminine role within society and within the world, that sometimes they might be doing. Women in the world generally might be doing things that we take for granted, but actually without them, there's a really important lack and that's not actually only for women. It's like for a lot of jobs that people and a lot of roles that people play within society. We don't think about them, we don't consider them as something like worth noting. But the moment they're gone, there's a huge societal collapse. And and Salonika. That actually happened I always like to refer to it is when the bean collectors went on strike for six months.

Wow, six months.

Yeah, I think it was that long. I was a child when it happened, but I remember as a memory the impact of that, And that's why I always think these are really vital supportive roles that they are nearly if they're done well, they are negligent. But when they are not done, they're gaping calls.

Yes, absolutely, Oh my god, I love this conversation so much. But Aphrodite, so there is like in the Homeric came to Aphrodite, there is mention of like the threat of her. You know, that's the one where she Zeus kind of gets sort of want to have sex with anchises and because he's like mad that her power over love and sex always has the gods going after mortal women. But like she's never gone after immortal and he gets kind of like worked up about it. But equally, like the reason why he has her Mary Hephaistus is that he recognizes that her power is such that she has to be tamped down in some way because if she has this free reign, like she can make them do anything through love and lust. And so I think that while we don't have the same example of a story where Demeter fully withholds it, like a lot of our stories around Aphrodite contain the threat of either withholding it or putting it on in a way that the gods don't want. And so I think, yeah, like that's really that's such an interesting way of seeing it.

This this this type of.

Power that they have that is is like totally hidden until it's not and then you're in real trouble.

And obviously, like with if Aphrodite little withheld her power, the threat is extinction. It's not solvable.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, both of them hold like like the absolute like epitome of control over the world in that way.

Yes, So it's a there's some really cool goddesses out there for people to consider. I think that it's a shame for me that a Western narrative has not told you of that has not a kind of like I think, especially for Demater and going back to that, although a forrad it is of such a great example that one now can I write novel as well? I love this conversation.

I'm working on that too, So don't worry.

Okay, excellent, I'm looking forward to that. But what was I saying? I forgot but yes, but Demeter, because the myth of Haydes and posephony so popular the last few years, it is such a shame that that myth who's had drastic, horrible consequences for the world above, has never really discussed like it's a traumatic thing that happened to the world. It's kind of like, if you look at this now, it'sychological disaster and how like, and which I think is also not coincidence, because I don't know if you're aware of the Greek Dark Ages, where there seems to have been this character entrapped stop of civilization and it kind of needed to restart. It does for me feel like a memory of when something so bad happened that kind of everything needed to stop and then start again.

Yeah, I wonder if that's something where like because I know the like the Dark Ages have been sort of reevaluated and like typically called like the early Iron Ages now because they have some remnants of things. But yes, like very little written word. You know, there was that kind of like real big blip in ancient Greek history, and I kind of wonder, you know, specifically when it comes to the story of Demeter being this kind of like restart, Like all it makes me think of is the eruption of Thera And how like you know, if you were talking about this sort of like remembered history very far in the past where you don't you don't have an exact memory of it, but like you know what what else looks like a horrific famine but specifically tied to the fertility of the earth. Then a volcanic eruption so big that it would have changed the face of the Mediterranean, right, Like you know, if anything's going to cause a complete disrupt in in growing plants and food, it's going to be like that level of eruption. And so yeah, like it feels it feels like this like sort of cultural memory of that time like then put into her story, and I know, I'm also just tying that because I fucking love volcano story, but still like it. You know, it feels it feels like reminiscent.

No, absolutely, and I think again because Demoter is such an old goddess, there's something really old. It kind of all ties together.

So so basically and synopsis, I wrote this story because as a little girl, I thought Demoter should have been the most important, one of the most important great cause.

And the world didn't obey my liking. So I decided to write her, started to make her a bigger podcast, and I thought the world gave her justice.

I love that so much. That's the perfect reason to tell her story. That's just so wonderful.

I just thought it was, yeah, one of those things that it was the story I always think I wanted to write. It's very different from other things I write because I don't write mythology. Actually a lot. I write more second world fantasies, a lot of reimaginings and its something like that. But this is potentially my only but we'll see actual myth retailling.

I mean, Demeter deserves it though, like she really does. So I'm so glad that you've given her, you know, this book, even if it's your only retelling.

Well, you never know. I mean, there's always elements of myths. It's just I've never tried to tell someone's story. I've kind of always just thought, I'll take here, this, hear that, we'll just use a bit of that, a bit of this, We'll just do whatever we want. But that's the time I thought, no, I need to look at this as a more concrete thing and try not to deviate, because if I wanted to deviate, then it would it would really be fan fiction.

Yeah, I mean there's so many levels of fan fiction in Greek mythology and that I'm telling yeah.

No, but it would have been like quite a different thing. But I did add elements of it, like I did add certain scenes that were more for my personal interest, as in that, yes, this's happened, somebody needed to pay. And obviously Demeter does have those mixed because it has the Eddy and I can never pronounce that even in Greek d edy psion.

Oh aerosicthon yes, yeah, yeah, the one who eats himself.

And I thought, there you go, somebody paink.

Yes, oh i yah, that's my favorite or one of my favorite stories.

Yes, So I thought I did allow moments like this. I was that myth wasn't especially but there were other myths as well that kind of gave that slight feeling. But I also added a couple of bats here and there where it was more me being like, yes, that's what should happen, but obviously myology doesn't allow me to go frough crazy, so I just added little there. But I don't generally write good characters. My characters are all terrible people do terrible things.

My dimeterter was kind of trying to be even more worse, I think than the myths allowed. I think I might have overdone it in some parts, but I just loved the rage, and I.

Wanted to really literate that. The biggest characteristic of this goddess is that she's really angry as her wrath not just anger. It's like uncontrollable rage.

Yes, I just I'm so I'm so happy with all of this. I really like, I'm so glad that this retelling exists. I just think it's exactly what was like missing. I'm pumped.

Sorry, that's like, that's all I have to say. Outside you like it, let me know what you think I will.

Oh, no, it's yeah, it sounds wonderful, and I mean, yeah, I'm just so I'm so excited. Do you want to tell my listeners like a bit more about where to find it when it's available? Well, I guess by the time this episode comes out, it'll be available. But is there more you know about the physical book you want to share and anywhere you want my listeners to follow you.

Or read more or or anything.

Yes. So, first of all, thank you thinking of buying my book, and if you actually do buy it, thank you very much for buying it. I'm really really, really, really really grateful to every single bit of support I get. I think it's really important to support in Depresses because they actually do really great work and it's sometimes the only places that we're published stories that are not quite mainstream, because, as Leeve said, the current publishing trends wouldn't really allow, I think, for such a negative portrayal of female methorytelling. But if you are interested in buying my book, you can find on Amazon. You can find it on my publisher's website, which is Ghost Orchard Press. You can also find it in quite a few bookstores, such as Waterstones in the UK or Barns and Novels in the US. I think it is, but really I would ask if you can to buy it from the bookshops if you can, because that way hopefully will inspire more bookshops to stock the book. And if anyone is interested in having questions or thoughts or once signed copy, I'm more than happy to be contacted on Instagram or through my website, or through Twitter, or through blue Sky or threads. There's so many social media's I'm pretty much everywhere, so feel free to get in touch. I am not that scary. I'm just loud and I just will talk on my own. But this is how I was raised. I am very sorry for being such a blobber mouth. I suffer from words diarrhea. But I'm really nice.

You are.

No, this has been the one of the like I'm so excited for this whole conversation.

One of that was too much talking.

Oh my god, this was me on my good behavior.

Oh no, it's wonderful. I will link to whatever I can in the episode's description so my listeners can find everything.

Uh.

But yeah, I'm just I'm really so thrilled. This conversation was so much fun.

I just all the different levels, like between hearing you know about Retellings from your perspective as a Greek person is so so.

Important to me.

But also Demeter getting a female rage story, like I just think, is so what what Retellings needed that. I'm just I'm really thrilled to have spoken with you and to have that that your book is going to exist in the world. So thank you so much for talking to me.

I just want to finace by saying, thank you so much for having me. It was such a great opportunity to talk about Demeter with someone that really seems to get demittered the way I do. So I am so I got this chance, and thank you so much for your support.

No, thank you, Oh I'm so thrilled. Ugh Nerds, thank you so much for listening. You can find links to Winter Harvest and following along with Iwana for more in the episode's description. But if you're able, check out this book. I think it's basically available everywhere. You just have to work a little harder for it because it is an indie publisher, But honestly that's the best because we need those, So please support this book, this author, the publisher themselves. I wish I had more to say at this end, but Like I said, the conversation was recorded at a much different time, and I'm just crumbling right now, So I hope you enjoyed it. I really did have so much fun, and listening back was absolutely wonderful. I'm just reminded so much of everything we talked about and how much I learned, and now I'm being reminded of thankfully. Editing episodes is the best. But I also just want to say, like it was so interesting. I was editing this conversation. We recorded it months and months ago, but I was editing it, you know, right before it was going to drop. And at the same time, I had been recording two other conversations for this month's worth of episodes, and everything was just fitting together in this really, really interesting way. I cannot wait for March's conversations. At the least. Have not written any scripts for regular episodes yet, but the conversations are all recorded now and they are good. We are talking about angry women. We are talking about the things men did to make us forget all of the great women of Greek mythology. We are talking about boob cups. I'll leave that one for you. Many boobed artemists that maybe they weren't boobed. You can just wait and see when it comes to that. I have some truly incredible episodes coming up, including the one I did admit was the either I said sexiest or smuttiest. Either one is relevant episodes that I've ever done on the show, So stay tuned. Today's is just capping things off with an angry, righteous, and vengeful demeter, something I think we all maybe need a little bit right now. I know I do, so thank you all for listening. Let's talk about Myth's Baby is written and produced by me Live Albert MICHAELA. Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians. My assistant producer, Laura Smith is the production assistant and audio engineer. The podcast is part of the iHeart Podcast Network. Listen on Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. Help me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology and the Ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron, where you will get to bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon dot com, slash myths Baby, or the link in this episode's description. Thank you all so much. Stay tuned for more women, more wild stories, women's sexuality. I think we are covering in this episode in this month's episodes in a very new way, and I'm really looking forward to it. There is so much more to come. Stay tuned. Happy March everyone, Thank you all. I am live and I love this shit.