Hi, Hello, Welcome. This is Let's talk about mits Baby and I am your host, live here with a conversation episode. Oh I'm so excited about this one. I just recently listened back to it to do this editing, and I just I love when listening back is like just as much fun as when I recorded it, and that is so the case for this one. So I spoke with doctor Joe Watson, who I learned about from himself when he reached out to me last year. I was covering the stories of Iphae and i Anthe and of Canus slash Caneus. These are the two trans characters that are featured in of its metamorphoses, and he shared an article that he'd written about exactly this. It was so wonderful and a conversation was like too. It was too late in the month to have a conversation for last year, so we kind of put it on the books for this year, and I'm so glad it worked out. We talked about if this as a trans character or how they can be read as you know, a kind of of lesbian story that that kind of gets its means of being like a real love story in ancient Greece, you know, all of these different ways that we can read these characters and and generally how we can understand them to be all these different forms of evidence of you know, gender diversity and sexual orientation diversity in the ancient world. So we talked about the real intricacies of what makes IFAs very different from Caneus, even as they are both trans characters, absolutely fascinating. There's a bunch of asides into other amazing characters from of its metamorphoses, because that is what Joe specializes in. And so we talked a little bit about Atalanta and a little bit about Medusa and a Rakney too, and just generally such a fun and informative and insightful conversation and just perfect for Pride Month. I am recording this introduction weeks in advance, so I'm trying to put myself in when it'll actually be June, which it is not currently, But in any case, it's absolutely perfect for Pride Month for once more featuring stories of LGBTQIA characters in the ancient world, which I really love doing every year, even if it is getting more and more difficult to find ways of telling stories because I've exhausted all of them, but thankfully we have conversation episodes for that. And so this is just one of three new conversations that I've got coming this month. Now that I think about it, I don't know if this one's coming first, because I'm just it's just the first one I'm recording. We'll see. I'm gonna stop trying to over explain something and just let you get to the episode conversations putting the trans in transformations if this and Kneus with doctor Joe Watson. So, I mean, you'll have to forgive me because we originally talked about this like a full year ago. But I'm just like, I guess, I'm just I'm fascinated by anything that you have to say in this realm. But like, basically you've studied You've studied the two notable trans characters in the Metamorphoses, right, so it would be like if it's of if it's an Ianthe and then can or Caneus. Yeah, so yeah, what what in what way of if you study these characters? Like what what have you?

Hi, Hello, Welcome. This is Let's talk about mits Baby and I am your host, live here with a conversation episode. Oh I'm so excited about this one. I just recently listened back to it to do this editing, and I just I love when listening back is like just as much fun as when I recorded it, and that is so the case for this one. So I spoke with doctor Joe Watson, who I learned about from himself when he reached out to me last year. I was covering the stories of Iphae and i Anthe and of Canus slash Caneus. These are the two trans characters that are featured in of its metamorphoses, and he shared an article that he'd written about exactly this. It was so wonderful and a conversation was like too. It was too late in the month to have a conversation for last year, so we kind of put it on the books for this year, and I'm so glad it worked out. We talked about if this as a trans character or how they can be read as you know, a kind of of lesbian story that that kind of gets its means of being like a real love story in ancient Greece, you know, all of these different ways that we can read these characters and and generally how we can understand them to be all these different forms of evidence of you know, gender diversity and sexual orientation diversity in the ancient world. So we talked about the real intricacies of what makes IFAs very different from Caneus, even as they are both trans characters, absolutely fascinating. There's a bunch of asides into other amazing characters from of its metamorphoses, because that is what Joe specializes in. And so we talked a little bit about Atalanta and a little bit about Medusa and a Rakney too, and just generally such a fun and informative and insightful conversation and just perfect for Pride Month. I am recording this introduction weeks in advance, so I'm trying to put myself in when it'll actually be June, which it is not currently, But in any case, it's absolutely perfect for Pride Month for once more featuring stories of LGBTQIA characters in the ancient world, which I really love doing every year, even if it is getting more and more difficult to find ways of telling stories because I've exhausted all of them, but thankfully we have conversation episodes for that. And so this is just one of three new conversations that I've got coming this month. Now that I think about it, I don't know if this one's coming first, because I'm just it's just the first one I'm recording. We'll see. I'm gonna stop trying to over explain something and just let you get to the episode conversations putting the trans in transformations if this and Kneus with doctor Joe Watson. So, I mean, you'll have to forgive me because we originally talked about this like a full year ago. But I'm just like, I guess, I'm just I'm fascinated by anything that you have to say in this realm. But like, basically you've studied You've studied the two notable trans characters in the Metamorphoses, right, so it would be like if it's of if it's an Ianthe and then can or Caneus. Yeah, so yeah, what what in what way of if you study these characters? Like what what have you?

Yeah?

Yeah?

What work have you done on them?

What work have you done on them?

Sure? So I guess this, like all originally came out of when I was doing my PhD, and I was interested in how it's like there's this group of We're going to complicate this term in a second, but let's start off with this group of female characters in the nest Porphoses who all sort of behave in the same way, and you'll be familiar when you're reading through of them. It's the ones, like the women who do these long speeches, so it's your atalanta, this mirror, and they all kind of have the same dynamics. So I was interesting comparing those to each other. And then I had like I fist in the middle of this, and I was like, but woman doesn't feel right to rescrive I fis alongside all these other ones who were just unambiguously definitely women, And so that was so basically it started off as I need to fit in a footnote in this dissertation to explain why I Fis isn't a woman, but for the sake of argument, I'm going to talk about this group of people and life is going to be in that group of people. And then from there it kind of turned into okay, all right, this, I guess, all right this, and then eventually we had a ten thousand word paper on our hands, and I was like, to send this off and publish this somewhere, and I kind of had a lot of, I guess, weird feelings about this as a non trans person but a queer person. I was like, so I was going to go and should I this? Should I not publish? This? Is this my story to tell? And then I thought, well, I know a lot about OVID. I may not myself be trans, but I know a huge amount of about of it. I love the met maybe I can try and tell this story. So I guess that's where it came from originally, and then it just came across I guess. The next step was I got really annoyed at reading other people's writing about Iphisiqui, and so I started going through all these articles and you see, the most weird outdated language from classis in like two thousand and six. I'm not talking about like nineteen sixty here or anything. Yeah, just stuff that I'm like, that's not even a slur. That just doesn't make sense. O God. So like, I don't know who it is now. There's someone also name Chane wan Shaw.

Sure? So I guess this, like all originally came out of when I was doing my PhD, and I was interested in how it's like there's this group of We're going to complicate this term in a second, but let's start off with this group of female characters in the nest Porphoses who all sort of behave in the same way, and you'll be familiar when you're reading through of them. It's the ones, like the women who do these long speeches, so it's your atalanta, this mirror, and they all kind of have the same dynamics. So I was interesting comparing those to each other. And then I had like I fist in the middle of this, and I was like, but woman doesn't feel right to rescrive I fis alongside all these other ones who were just unambiguously definitely women, And so that was so basically it started off as I need to fit in a footnote in this dissertation to explain why I Fis isn't a woman, but for the sake of argument, I'm going to talk about this group of people and life is going to be in that group of people. And then from there it kind of turned into okay, all right, this, I guess, all right this, and then eventually we had a ten thousand word paper on our hands, and I was like, to send this off and publish this somewhere, and I kind of had a lot of, I guess, weird feelings about this as a non trans person but a queer person. I was like, so I was going to go and should I this? Should I not publish? This? Is this my story to tell? And then I thought, well, I know a lot about OVID. I may not myself be trans, but I know a huge amount of about of it. I love the met maybe I can try and tell this story. So I guess that's where it came from originally, and then it just came across I guess. The next step was I got really annoyed at reading other people's writing about Iphisiqui, and so I started going through all these articles and you see, the most weird outdated language from classis in like two thousand and six. I'm not talking about like nineteen sixty here or anything. Yeah, just stuff that I'm like, that's not even a slur. That just doesn't make sense. O God. So like, I don't know who it is now. There's someone also name Chane wan Shaw.

But there's sometimes they deserve it.

But there's sometimes they deserve it.

But I who talks about like people being bisexual, and they don't mean like attracted to more than one gender. They just be like with duplex sexual anatomy, so like in some way maybe intersex. And I'm just like, that's not even a helpful description, Like, no one reading that would know what you mean.

But I who talks about like people being bisexual, and they don't mean like attracted to more than one gender. They just be like with duplex sexual anatomy, so like in some way maybe intersex. And I'm just like, that's not even a helpful description, Like, no one reading that would know what you mean.

No, that literally means something else, like to everyone who reads the word.

No, that literally means something else, like to everyone who reads the word.

And let's be honest, who's going to be reading the words about Iphis and the Anthey like, there's going to be a fair number of bisexuals in that audience, going, well, that's what exactly. So it was rage basically then propelled me on from there. Fair Yeah, And I in seeing all these weird things that other people had said, I realized there were so many things that seemed abundantly obvious, not just to me, but to so many people that I knew and I could see on the Internet. I was never like a tumbler girly myself, but I was very aware of Iphis and Kinaeus as being like characters in that kind of realm of the Internet.

And let's be honest, who's going to be reading the words about Iphis and the Anthey like, there's going to be a fair number of bisexuals in that audience, going, well, that's what exactly. So it was rage basically then propelled me on from there. Fair Yeah, And I in seeing all these weird things that other people had said, I realized there were so many things that seemed abundantly obvious, not just to me, but to so many people that I knew and I could see on the Internet. I was never like a tumbler girly myself, but I was very aware of Iphis and Kinaeus as being like characters in that kind of realm of the Internet.

I bet they would be. Yeah. I was also never on tumblor really, but I can see that so real.

I bet they would be. Yeah. I was also never on tumblor really, but I can see that so real.

So I thought, this is not my hot take. This is very much like it's in the atmosphere. So I thought, if I just say some really obvious things, at least then someone said them and they're in a publication record somewhere as having been said, so someone else can go the argument has been made that is actually transcaracteron Yeah, right, that could be done. That'd be wonderful. So I guess it's where it started.

So I thought, this is not my hot take. This is very much like it's in the atmosphere. So I thought, if I just say some really obvious things, at least then someone said them and they're in a publication record somewhere as having been said, so someone else can go the argument has been made that is actually transcaracteron Yeah, right, that could be done. That'd be wonderful. So I guess it's where it started.

Yeah, no, I really I really like that and identify with it because, like I, I mean, I still remember, like years and years ago on the show originally reading that myth, and I know the first time I read through it and the first time I featured it on the show, I kind of I definitely I remember coming out at the end and being like, I think you can see this character in two different ways, depending on how you personally want to see them, Like, I think that if this can be read as a lesbian who was gifted some way of being with the person that they love in a society where they couldn't, you know, or as this trans character. And and the trans character works so well too, I mean purely because like there is not it's not just one trans character in the met and that is so so interesting and so yeah, like I like, I mean, one, just the fact that the met has these characters is so important today and also just like generally interesting. So I'm glad to know that people are writing about it. Like I don't. I don't have the same access to like the academic side. So I'm thrilled because you sent me your paper and that was so helpful, and I just like, oh, this is great because like I don't, I'm not in that world. I don't even know where to go, Like I mean, I know where to go looking, but oh my god, trying to read through Jstore as a person who's not in that realm anymore, like nah, sometimes I just get lost every time. But yeah, so I was thrilled to have that. But it is so it's such an interesting kind of concept to go through. I mean, I can't get over the bisexual thing though, And also like two thousand and six, like I wish that surprised me, but like I graduated high school one thousand and six, it was not that long ago, even though okay, fine it was, but like like yeah, it's just it's so wild the way that things have changed like so much, and also like not at all, but you know that's that's interesting.

Yeah, no, I really I really like that and identify with it because, like I, I mean, I still remember, like years and years ago on the show originally reading that myth, and I know the first time I read through it and the first time I featured it on the show, I kind of I definitely I remember coming out at the end and being like, I think you can see this character in two different ways, depending on how you personally want to see them, Like, I think that if this can be read as a lesbian who was gifted some way of being with the person that they love in a society where they couldn't, you know, or as this trans character. And and the trans character works so well too, I mean purely because like there is not it's not just one trans character in the met and that is so so interesting and so yeah, like I like, I mean, one, just the fact that the met has these characters is so important today and also just like generally interesting. So I'm glad to know that people are writing about it. Like I don't. I don't have the same access to like the academic side. So I'm thrilled because you sent me your paper and that was so helpful, and I just like, oh, this is great because like I don't, I'm not in that world. I don't even know where to go, Like I mean, I know where to go looking, but oh my god, trying to read through Jstore as a person who's not in that realm anymore, like nah, sometimes I just get lost every time. But yeah, so I was thrilled to have that. But it is so it's such an interesting kind of concept to go through. I mean, I can't get over the bisexual thing though, And also like two thousand and six, like I wish that surprised me, but like I graduated high school one thousand and six, it was not that long ago, even though okay, fine it was, but like like yeah, it's just it's so wild the way that things have changed like so much, and also like not at all, but you know that's that's interesting.

Yeah, I might in another world that we fully don't need to go into. I do a lot of like late nineteenth century early twentieth century stuff, and describing someone who do now go intersects as bisexuals just read to me like this came out eighteen ninety seven, this and that's what this feels like. Yeah, this was made to two thousands.

Yeah, I might in another world that we fully don't need to go into. I do a lot of like late nineteenth century early twentieth century stuff, and describing someone who do now go intersects as bisexuals just read to me like this came out eighteen ninety seven, this and that's what this feels like. Yeah, this was made to two thousands.

Like I mean, I would expect, just I would horribly expect a lot of transphobia in that time because like you know, I grew up with friends the show to be clear, but like you know, it's but yeah, but to see that that's just like nonsensical, Like did no. I'm just like I want to understand, Like did it I mean no, no, I don't because I was gonna be like, well because I guess if it's with like boys and girls, presumably, but like there is actually no acknowledgment that they would.

Like I mean, I would expect, just I would horribly expect a lot of transphobia in that time because like you know, I grew up with friends the show to be clear, but like you know, it's but yeah, but to see that that's just like nonsensical, Like did no. I'm just like I want to understand, Like did it I mean no, no, I don't because I was gonna be like, well because I guess if it's with like boys and girls, presumably, but like there is actually no acknowledgment that they would.

Yeah there's I mean, it's just it's I am.

Yeah there's I mean, it's just it's I am.

The way and like yeah, like yeah, yeah.

The way and like yeah, like yeah, yeah.

One person direction. Yeah, No, I think I did look into it at the time. Is this is a thing. It's just not a thing that more people would say they want to be understood exactly.

One person direction. Yeah, No, I think I did look into it at the time. Is this is a thing. It's just not a thing that more people would say they want to be understood exactly.

Yeah, because I mean, like the word, the origins of the word itself makes it makes sense, but like the word itself does not mean that. So here we are. Yeah.

Yeah, because I mean, like the word, the origins of the word itself makes it makes sense, but like the word itself does not mean that. So here we are. Yeah.

So yeah, and then I think I think one of the things because I didn't feel when I was writing this article like I was reinventing in the wheel. I felt a bit like I'm saying things that people have been saying for years, but I'm saying them in a recorded way. Yeah, and some of the things I'm just saying. But this is so there's so much interesting obvious stuff, like even if Ofvid doesn't know what a trans person is, and sure maybe off it doesn't, he goes out of his way to say, if this is a name you can give to anyone of any gender, you go, he doesn't have to do that, and yeah, sure it works in the nice clever bit of the myth where you go, yeah, sure, yeah, the character who's potentially going to change gender. But also he doesn't have to go out of his way to allow that reading quite as well as he does. And he does allow that reading because I really liked what you said about you can sort of read this as anything depending on who you are what you want to come at it from. And a few couple of years ago before I ended up publishing this, I did this workshop at the university I was at the time with undergraduate students where we looked at the story and we looked at a reception of this story and kind of modern literature and like, but what what is this? Like what label do we want to attach? And the number of different labels. I got back from the audience saying, well, it was obviously this is what it's obvious this is and you go, well, none of you are the same thing, so it's clearly not that obvious. And that's a really nice thing about that story. And I think I think that's somewhere where my understanding like changed over time. Is I started off with this kind of rage, like I need to make the political statement that ifuis is a transman, because no one else in the scholarship at least is making this political statement, and so it's really important, and then kind of going, yeah, it is. It's also quite important for lesbians as well, because it's not like there's a great number of lesbians out in classical literature for people to look at, and this is a nice happy story. So I think that was it took some time, I think to maybe calm down from my rage to host people complete this and that's that's well.

So yeah, and then I think I think one of the things because I didn't feel when I was writing this article like I was reinventing in the wheel. I felt a bit like I'm saying things that people have been saying for years, but I'm saying them in a recorded way. Yeah, and some of the things I'm just saying. But this is so there's so much interesting obvious stuff, like even if Ofvid doesn't know what a trans person is, and sure maybe off it doesn't, he goes out of his way to say, if this is a name you can give to anyone of any gender, you go, he doesn't have to do that, and yeah, sure it works in the nice clever bit of the myth where you go, yeah, sure, yeah, the character who's potentially going to change gender. But also he doesn't have to go out of his way to allow that reading quite as well as he does. And he does allow that reading because I really liked what you said about you can sort of read this as anything depending on who you are what you want to come at it from. And a few couple of years ago before I ended up publishing this, I did this workshop at the university I was at the time with undergraduate students where we looked at the story and we looked at a reception of this story and kind of modern literature and like, but what what is this? Like what label do we want to attach? And the number of different labels. I got back from the audience saying, well, it was obviously this is what it's obvious this is and you go, well, none of you are the same thing, so it's clearly not that obvious. And that's a really nice thing about that story. And I think I think that's somewhere where my understanding like changed over time. Is I started off with this kind of rage, like I need to make the political statement that ifuis is a transman, because no one else in the scholarship at least is making this political statement, and so it's really important, and then kind of going, yeah, it is. It's also quite important for lesbians as well, because it's not like there's a great number of lesbians out in classical literature for people to look at, and this is a nice happy story. So I think that was it took some time, I think to maybe calm down from my rage to host people complete this and that's that's well.

And I mean I think, yeah, both are valid too though, right, like obviously, especially now, you know, transrepresentation is incredibly important, especially like laying out the history of how long these people have existed and the acknowledgment in stuff like the met of like hey, like, yeah, maybe Avid didn't you know how to conceptualize the concept of a transperson, but like at the same time, he very much did in his own, very specific way. And I mean there's there's so much example. There's lots of examples beyond a of it too in the ancient world, which is just it's so nice and so yeah, like I also love to to, yeah, make that very clear, you know, in my show. But at the same time, yeah, I mean, there really is not a lot of happy ending like same sex relationships at all, Like, let alone women, there's almost no like you know, acknowledgment of women loving other women. But even when there are men, they tend to die. So you know, it's like it's nice to have this as as possibly both as like yeah, this kind of thing where if you feel that is representative of you, that great. It's either one you know, like and I think that's yeah, a nice, a nice way of seeing it. There's like, there's lots of myths like that, but this is one that's particularly interesting. And so like I read your paperback when I did the episode, and then I admittedly didn't read it again. I mean, you know, I get that I don't. I don't tend to listen back to anything that I do unless I absolutely have to. But so, like, what what was it that you were were kind of laying out in terms of this as like the you know, the evidence aside from well, I mean, I mean feel try to reiterate all the story.

And I mean I think, yeah, both are valid too though, right, like obviously, especially now, you know, transrepresentation is incredibly important, especially like laying out the history of how long these people have existed and the acknowledgment in stuff like the met of like hey, like, yeah, maybe Avid didn't you know how to conceptualize the concept of a transperson, but like at the same time, he very much did in his own, very specific way. And I mean there's there's so much example. There's lots of examples beyond a of it too in the ancient world, which is just it's so nice and so yeah, like I also love to to, yeah, make that very clear, you know, in my show. But at the same time, yeah, I mean, there really is not a lot of happy ending like same sex relationships at all, Like, let alone women, there's almost no like you know, acknowledgment of women loving other women. But even when there are men, they tend to die. So you know, it's like it's nice to have this as as possibly both as like yeah, this kind of thing where if you feel that is representative of you, that great. It's either one you know, like and I think that's yeah, a nice, a nice way of seeing it. There's like, there's lots of myths like that, but this is one that's particularly interesting. And so like I read your paperback when I did the episode, and then I admittedly didn't read it again. I mean, you know, I get that I don't. I don't tend to listen back to anything that I do unless I absolutely have to. But so, like, what what was it that you were were kind of laying out in terms of this as like the you know, the evidence aside from well, I mean, I mean feel try to reiterate all the story.

Yeah that's fair. So I guess the thing that struck me first about is I looked at story and you know, this is this lovely story where you get this person born who the author tells us of It tells us is born a woman quote unquote, but then in the immediately told by her what her father says to her mother, you can't actually raise a daughter because there's no money, and so this child from day one is raised as a boy and you don't really know much about how I Fis understands himself sort of do we get speech later on, but we get this this child who's raised the boy and then later in life falls in love with a young girl doesn't really understand how that's gonna work because there's no fun little sexual paradigm telling ife is how to love a woman and then kind of, through their mother's help, transforms quote unquote transforms because exactly what that transformation is is not entirely clear, but transforms into a man. I think one of the things that struck me when I was thinking about how am I gonna make this argument was actually that transformation is weirdly understated, because what you get is something like Iphis's step got longer, his face grew and got more vigor in it, and he became stronger, and it was it's really like general stuff. It's not very explicit, and so, you know, being a kind of a myth that I thought, well, it's going to have a look, what do the other versions of this story say, like Ovid can't be the first? What other versions of the story saying, it's like a similar story that clearly of it is basing the Anthey story on. Is there really yeah, from I think I'm going to say Antoninus liberalists, although I might be wrong.

Yeah that's fair. So I guess the thing that struck me first about is I looked at story and you know, this is this lovely story where you get this person born who the author tells us of It tells us is born a woman quote unquote, but then in the immediately told by her what her father says to her mother, you can't actually raise a daughter because there's no money, and so this child from day one is raised as a boy and you don't really know much about how I Fis understands himself sort of do we get speech later on, but we get this this child who's raised the boy and then later in life falls in love with a young girl doesn't really understand how that's gonna work because there's no fun little sexual paradigm telling ife is how to love a woman and then kind of, through their mother's help, transforms quote unquote transforms because exactly what that transformation is is not entirely clear, but transforms into a man. I think one of the things that struck me when I was thinking about how am I gonna make this argument was actually that transformation is weirdly understated, because what you get is something like Iphis's step got longer, his face grew and got more vigor in it, and he became stronger, and it was it's really like general stuff. It's not very explicit, and so, you know, being a kind of a myth that I thought, well, it's going to have a look, what do the other versions of this story say, like Ovid can't be the first? What other versions of the story saying, it's like a similar story that clearly of it is basing the Anthey story on. Is there really yeah, from I think I'm going to say Antoninus liberalists, although I might be wrong.

I was gonna say, how did I miss this? But if it was, if it was liberals, I you can see why I would it.

I was gonna say, how did I miss this? But if it was, if it was liberals, I you can see why I would it.

People would miss that if I got that right, maybe whether I have sorry it's Nicanada. I'm so sorry it's Canada.

People would miss that if I got that right, maybe whether I have sorry it's Nicanada. I'm so sorry it's Canada.

Now another that I don't even know.

Now another that I don't even know.

We have like a summary of it later. So it's one of those ones.

We have like a summary of it later. So it's one of those ones.

Yeah, and by that I mean I hate them.

Yeah, and by that I mean I hate them.

I hate them so much. And I think it's Antoni's liberals who references, So that's.

I hate them so much. And I think it's Antoni's liberals who references, So that's.

All good, right, Yeah, one of those another guy.

All good, right, Yeah, one of those another guy.

Yeah, but it really explicitly says in Greek source that it's there as the goddess Alito. I think isis, which is it grew genitalia on a girl through male genitalia on a girl. So it's like super explicit. Yeah, and then OVID doesn't do anything like that, and that really interested me, like why does OVID who has absolutely no qualms whatsoever about making a story sexual if it doesn't have to be?

Yeah, but it really explicitly says in Greek source that it's there as the goddess Alito. I think isis, which is it grew genitalia on a girl through male genitalia on a girl. So it's like super explicit. Yeah, and then OVID doesn't do anything like that, and that really interested me, like why does OVID who has absolutely no qualms whatsoever about making a story sexual if it doesn't have to be?

Well it was also yeah, I also ordermind the listeners to just how much because that is so interesting because not only that but also like, the whole point of including this character in this book is to have a transformation, and typically the transformation is fairly detailed because that's the entire purpose of the metamorphosy. So yeah, to have it be so inexplicit is really interesting.

Well it was also yeah, I also ordermind the listeners to just how much because that is so interesting because not only that but also like, the whole point of including this character in this book is to have a transformation, and typically the transformation is fairly detailed because that's the entire purpose of the metamorphosy. So yeah, to have it be so inexplicit is really interesting.

Really odd, and it's you know, without getting into the whole like what's going on in the literature sort of thing. There's something really weird going on in book nine of its metamorphoses anyway, because all of the transformations are a bit odd. There. You know, the story immediately before. It's the story of Biblis, who's an woman who's in love with her brother and she writes lovely it's so weird she writes these love letters and then she doesn't really like transform. Like at the end of the story she turns into a fountain, but it's described it about four lines, and you go, you didn't need a two hundred and fifty line story to tell me that she transformed into a fountain in four lines. So what we're doing metamorphosis and transformation at this point. Yeah, and then we have a story it's all about change, but the change itself seems really understated. Yeah, which is odd, decidedly weird. So yeah, So I started from saying, this is a transformation that's like understated, and then I looked at the name of the that's a common name, and I thought, well, is it like if we actually look at how this name is used in historical records and the like inscriptions and things like that, is it mostly used of men or most use of women? And the answer is basically, it genuinely is like a common name like it really is, which is interesting, like you know of a picked a name that really.

Really odd, and it's you know, without getting into the whole like what's going on in the literature sort of thing. There's something really weird going on in book nine of its metamorphoses anyway, because all of the transformations are a bit odd. There. You know, the story immediately before. It's the story of Biblis, who's an woman who's in love with her brother and she writes lovely it's so weird she writes these love letters and then she doesn't really like transform. Like at the end of the story she turns into a fountain, but it's described it about four lines, and you go, you didn't need a two hundred and fifty line story to tell me that she transformed into a fountain in four lines. So what we're doing metamorphosis and transformation at this point. Yeah, and then we have a story it's all about change, but the change itself seems really understated. Yeah, which is odd, decidedly weird. So yeah, So I started from saying, this is a transformation that's like understated, and then I looked at the name of the that's a common name, and I thought, well, is it like if we actually look at how this name is used in historical records and the like inscriptions and things like that, is it mostly used of men or most use of women? And the answer is basically, it genuinely is like a common name like it really is, which is interesting, like you know of a picked a name that really.

Was Yeah, and it's Greek too, right, because so we think that he probably invented this name though or we we you know, have evidence of it before.

Was Yeah, and it's Greek too, right, because so we think that he probably invented this name though or we we you know, have evidence of it before.

Yeah, we generally think genuine having invented the name, he invents attaching it to this myth.

Yeah, we generally think genuine having invented the name, he invents attaching it to this myth.

So that is yeah, that's what I But I mean, he picked a very Greek name.

So that is yeah, that's what I But I mean, he picked a very Greek name.

Yeah, it's a Greek name and a name that is historically really associated with men, because there's an i Fist in the Argonautica and Jason the Argonauts. So you've already got if you're reading it and you don't know anything about the story, your association is that's a man's name, even though you probably know women called that name. Yeah, I guess, like as a person called Joe. I relate there are women, but mostly it's a man's name.

Yeah, it's a Greek name and a name that is historically really associated with men, because there's an i Fist in the Argonautica and Jason the Argonauts. So you've already got if you're reading it and you don't know anything about the story, your association is that's a man's name, even though you probably know women called that name. Yeah, I guess, like as a person called Joe. I relate there are women, but mostly it's a man's name.

As someone who was originally named Alex. I also, yeah, I hear that.

As someone who was originally named Alex. I also, yeah, I hear that.

Yeah, so yeah. I looked at that, and then I thought, because I got I got confused. Basically, so Latin and Greek awful languages, and they have cases, so they have multiple forms that appearing.

Yeah, so yeah. I looked at that, and then I thought, because I got I got confused. Basically, so Latin and Greek awful languages, and they have cases, so they have multiple forms that appearing.

That's why I gave up on Latin very quickly.

That's why I gave up on Latin very quickly.

Totally fair, and I thought, well, I don't know, how does this name work with the Greek name that's been talked about in Latin in the Latin poem, like, what where is it getting its endings from? Are they look a bit Latin? To me? I was looking with these look like Latin endings, it's a been a Greek ending in there. So I started looking into the endings of the Greek name and how that works. And it turns out that in Greek you have like a masculine ipis that looks like iphis sometimes but then has different forms, and a feminine i fist that looks like iphism form, So they only really look alike in the in the form where their iphis otherwise they look different. Yeah, but ovidently has one form of the name, so he's kind of mixed together to some extent, probably the masculine the feminine Greek ending, so you get this kind of already you're associating with a man, but it's got these blended endings, and it has some feminine endings in it too, So on a grammatical level, it really interested me. This was a like blended name that we don't have great evidence for the name in Latin before it, So we don't it's really hard to make a case to how how much blending of it's done and how much that's just what's happened over time to the name, but certainly of it's done something to deliberately combine some forces here, which is really odd thought.

Totally fair, and I thought, well, I don't know, how does this name work with the Greek name that's been talked about in Latin in the Latin poem, like, what where is it getting its endings from? Are they look a bit Latin? To me? I was looking with these look like Latin endings, it's a been a Greek ending in there. So I started looking into the endings of the Greek name and how that works. And it turns out that in Greek you have like a masculine ipis that looks like iphis sometimes but then has different forms, and a feminine i fist that looks like iphism form, So they only really look alike in the in the form where their iphis otherwise they look different. Yeah, but ovidently has one form of the name, so he's kind of mixed together to some extent, probably the masculine the feminine Greek ending, so you get this kind of already you're associating with a man, but it's got these blended endings, and it has some feminine endings in it too, So on a grammatical level, it really interested me. This was a like blended name that we don't have great evidence for the name in Latin before it, So we don't it's really hard to make a case to how how much blending of it's done and how much that's just what's happened over time to the name, but certainly of it's done something to deliberately combine some forces here, which is really odd thought.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I guess because in Latin, and this is me not ever having read of it in Latin and again having done first year Latin and then been like no, like because in the actual poem itself, wouldn't it. So it only appears as if it's it doesn't.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I guess because in Latin, and this is me not ever having read of it in Latin and again having done first year Latin and then been like no, like because in the actual poem itself, wouldn't it. So it only appears as if it's it doesn't.

Ever have sure. So yeah, so it does appear in other forms, but a lot of the time it's not always explicitly clear, which whether it's takes. So I think the first time it comes up. This is at this point basing my memory on like not reason, this might be wrong, So I think it's if tata, So mutata is a feminine ending, so like with ife as having been transformed literally, so like that is feminine. Yeah, But then immediately afterwards you get that like it's her grandfather's name, so you go, well, then it's associated with a man. Then you get it in a very masculine form, so it's like it's undercut immediately we kind of have to do the feminine thing because this point in the story, Iphis is grammatically at least feminine, but then it immediately gets undercut. So there's this consistent like tension with the way of its presenting that name m And from there I got really interested in like, okay, because Latin's a gender language, everything is the masculine, feminine or mutabe what are the words as ovid use of life like, because every adjective would have to agree with the name, and then it would be a feminine masculator. And at this at the early point in the story, there are a couple of feminine adjectives totally true. There's also a lot of like deliberately avoiding the gender. So some parts, some forms in Latin don't display gender, some do, and it's like Ovid prefers to use the forms that don't display gender at that early point in the story, which I thought was really interesting. And you even get lots of references to iphis as like other things, just like metaphorically, so when life is in the womb, he's a weight, and a weight is a neuter gender in Latin condus, so like again it's deliberately not feminizing. You get kind of lots of things like this where I'm like, if Ovid wanted to exploit this, this kind of personal loves to exploit poetic forms and stuff, he would go out in this way to make these feminine forms, and he doesn't. Yeah, it seems to be deliberately underplayed to me.

Ever have sure. So yeah, so it does appear in other forms, but a lot of the time it's not always explicitly clear, which whether it's takes. So I think the first time it comes up. This is at this point basing my memory on like not reason, this might be wrong, So I think it's if tata, So mutata is a feminine ending, so like with ife as having been transformed literally, so like that is feminine. Yeah, But then immediately afterwards you get that like it's her grandfather's name, so you go, well, then it's associated with a man. Then you get it in a very masculine form, so it's like it's undercut immediately we kind of have to do the feminine thing because this point in the story, Iphis is grammatically at least feminine, but then it immediately gets undercut. So there's this consistent like tension with the way of its presenting that name m And from there I got really interested in like, okay, because Latin's a gender language, everything is the masculine, feminine or mutabe what are the words as ovid use of life like, because every adjective would have to agree with the name, and then it would be a feminine masculator. And at this at the early point in the story, there are a couple of feminine adjectives totally true. There's also a lot of like deliberately avoiding the gender. So some parts, some forms in Latin don't display gender, some do, and it's like Ovid prefers to use the forms that don't display gender at that early point in the story, which I thought was really interesting. And you even get lots of references to iphis as like other things, just like metaphorically, so when life is in the womb, he's a weight, and a weight is a neuter gender in Latin condus, so like again it's deliberately not feminizing. You get kind of lots of things like this where I'm like, if Ovid wanted to exploit this, this kind of personal loves to exploit poetic forms and stuff, he would go out in this way to make these feminine forms, and he doesn't. Yeah, it seems to be deliberately underplayed to me.

Do you know how this compares to Canus and Taneous because I'm serious with that, Yeah, because like I know, like in the translations that one I can't remember as well with with if this, but that one tends Canus is pretty explicitly like Canus as Canus is a woman. And then Caneus is a man and it yeah, it feels like that really explicit, like so yeah, do you know, Yeah.

Do you know how this compares to Canus and Taneous because I'm serious with that, Yeah, because like I know, like in the translations that one I can't remember as well with with if this, but that one tends Canus is pretty explicitly like Canus as Canus is a woman. And then Caneus is a man and it yeah, it feels like that really explicit, like so yeah, do you know, Yeah.

No, that is absolutely really explicit in it. And there are like two really interest things about that actually. So one is about the order in which we meet characters, like what do we meet them in because what we get told intil the storyline is we're at Troy having the Trojan War. It's really violet, really bloody, and there's this great soldier on the battle for called Calineus, and he is killing people left and right. Oh, nor I that could be confused. We have a battlefield and got Sickness the soldier, he's killing people left and right. And then yeah, one of the onan ones, one of those pines, and then we cut to a camp side Storytine when neir Stor is saying, actually, I once met a man who was just like Sickness, who also couldn't be destroyed back in the like pre mythic days before the Trojan War, and he was called Kineus, and no one could ever defeat him. He was so great, he was so powerful. And there's just like this story he was a woman. So it's it's framed as like meet the man who's caineus. Then there's this store worry of kindness, this rumor of kindness, and we get that cool, and we get this, you know, the story that I'm sure your listeners already familiar with, where this young for Salian woman kindness is walking along the beach and is assaulted by Neptune and it doesn't go great. But the first response she has is to go, you've done a horrible thing to me. I want you to make it so that I am no longer a woman? And what does that mean? Like, what does it mean not to be a woman? Does it mean to be a man? What does it mean not to suffer the things she just suffered? Yeah, Like Neptune makes a decision, and Neptune says, yeah, okay, what we're saying is that you want to be a man, And there's some evidence that maybe kindness then enjoys that, So potentially that was what he was asking for. But the question itself make all the statement itself make me not a woman is so ambiguous. Yeah, and again, people like scholars have gone in different directions on is this just saying patriarchy as ship, which it is? So I don't want to be a woman under the system or is this saying I actively want to be a man.

No, that is absolutely really explicit in it. And there are like two really interest things about that actually. So one is about the order in which we meet characters, like what do we meet them in because what we get told intil the storyline is we're at Troy having the Trojan War. It's really violet, really bloody, and there's this great soldier on the battle for called Calineus, and he is killing people left and right. Oh, nor I that could be confused. We have a battlefield and got Sickness the soldier, he's killing people left and right. And then yeah, one of the onan ones, one of those pines, and then we cut to a camp side Storytine when neir Stor is saying, actually, I once met a man who was just like Sickness, who also couldn't be destroyed back in the like pre mythic days before the Trojan War, and he was called Kineus, and no one could ever defeat him. He was so great, he was so powerful. And there's just like this story he was a woman. So it's it's framed as like meet the man who's caineus. Then there's this store worry of kindness, this rumor of kindness, and we get that cool, and we get this, you know, the story that I'm sure your listeners already familiar with, where this young for Salian woman kindness is walking along the beach and is assaulted by Neptune and it doesn't go great. But the first response she has is to go, you've done a horrible thing to me. I want you to make it so that I am no longer a woman? And what does that mean? Like, what does it mean not to be a woman? Does it mean to be a man? What does it mean not to suffer the things she just suffered? Yeah, Like Neptune makes a decision, and Neptune says, yeah, okay, what we're saying is that you want to be a man, And there's some evidence that maybe kindness then enjoys that, So potentially that was what he was asking for. But the question itself make all the statement itself make me not a woman is so ambiguous. Yeah, and again, people like scholars have gone in different directions on is this just saying patriarchy as ship, which it is? So I don't want to be a woman under the system or is this saying I actively want to be a man.

Yeah.

Yeah.

To me and my reading, the fact that the first thing that does after being transformed is go out and penetrate some the salient fields.

To me and my reading, the fact that the first thing that does after being transformed is go out and penetrate some the salient fields.

Yeah, I'm like that's what I read too. I was like, this is what tells me that I'm going to read this story as a nice thing that happened instead of a horror show, because it is. Yeah, I mean one that's a more enjoyable way of reading it. Neptune is bad enough without adding anymore. But then yeah, that I forgot about that until you said it was like, oh, I can hear myself like reading that to the listeners because it was so it was a lot.

Yeah, I'm like that's what I read too. I was like, this is what tells me that I'm going to read this story as a nice thing that happened instead of a horror show, because it is. Yeah, I mean one that's a more enjoyable way of reading it. Neptune is bad enough without adding anymore. But then yeah, that I forgot about that until you said it was like, oh, I can hear myself like reading that to the listeners because it was so it was a lot.

Yeah, it's so like to me, that just feels like a deliberate, explicit thing.

Yeah, it's so like to me, that just feels like a deliberate, explicit thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But the other really interesting thing that's going with kines that I don't really talk about in the article because I might have missed this five years ago.

But the other really interesting thing that's going with kines that I don't really talk about in the article because I might have missed this five years ago.

When I read the article on the I've got it now.

When I read the article on the I've got it now.

But you know, have the great opportunity when you're find teaching students now to be like, this is why scholarship can be rubbish, because sometimes your humble lecturer can fully forget or not put something in an article, but at least you get Tabok in the classroom now five years later. Is that of it doesn't invent the character, like Kineus has a literary history before he turns up in it, and most of that's pretty simple, right. So he turns up in Homer, he's one of the heroes, all good. He turns up in the Uger Nautica, where he's one of the heroes there, and he's you know, he's a great soldier. And that's where we first get the first idea that maybe his skin is unbreaking, which in the really plays with his skin is. But what he also turns up in Virgil. And that's the thing I think I completely forgot when the write this article is so briefly he turns up in Virgil. But when he turns up in Virgil, it's during the book six, if you're neared, where in As is going down into the underworld to find out about how great Rome is going to be right. And he goes down he's just about to go and see Dido again after fucking her over in book four, and he sees this crowd of women from mythology, and so he goes down he sees like Fhydra, Aeryphilly and pacifying and all these kind of women from Greek mythology, particularly Greek tragedy. And he also sees Kineus, who is called Kineus there again, this like masculine name, who I think Virgil says was once transformed into a man but has clearly or maybe reverted back to being a woman once in the underworld. Yeah, and it's quite ambiguous, like exactly what's going on there, you know, once a man, now a woman is what seems to be the the force there in the underworld. So that's whether Virgil invents that or not, we don't know. But there's already before of it this that will suggest that maybe we can play with the gender in this mythology a little bit.

But you know, have the great opportunity when you're find teaching students now to be like, this is why scholarship can be rubbish, because sometimes your humble lecturer can fully forget or not put something in an article, but at least you get Tabok in the classroom now five years later. Is that of it doesn't invent the character, like Kineus has a literary history before he turns up in it, and most of that's pretty simple, right. So he turns up in Homer, he's one of the heroes, all good. He turns up in the Uger Nautica, where he's one of the heroes there, and he's you know, he's a great soldier. And that's where we first get the first idea that maybe his skin is unbreaking, which in the really plays with his skin is. But what he also turns up in Virgil. And that's the thing I think I completely forgot when the write this article is so briefly he turns up in Virgil. But when he turns up in Virgil, it's during the book six, if you're neared, where in As is going down into the underworld to find out about how great Rome is going to be right. And he goes down he's just about to go and see Dido again after fucking her over in book four, and he sees this crowd of women from mythology, and so he goes down he sees like Fhydra, Aeryphilly and pacifying and all these kind of women from Greek mythology, particularly Greek tragedy. And he also sees Kineus, who is called Kineus there again, this like masculine name, who I think Virgil says was once transformed into a man but has clearly or maybe reverted back to being a woman once in the underworld. Yeah, and it's quite ambiguous, like exactly what's going on there, you know, once a man, now a woman is what seems to be the the force there in the underworld. So that's whether Virgil invents that or not, we don't know. But there's already before of it this that will suggest that maybe we can play with the gender in this mythology a little bit.

Mm hmmm.

Mm hmmm.

H m hm hm. And actually Kinas has already turned up in the Metamorphoses at least once as well, right in back in book eight. So this story makes it takes place to book twelve, ye book eight in the story of Atalanta and the Caledonian boar hunt, right, because.

H m hm hm. And actually Kinas has already turned up in the Metamorphoses at least once as well, right in back in book eight. So this story makes it takes place to book twelve, ye book eight in the story of Atalanta and the Caledonian boar hunt, right, because.

He's another one of those, right.

He's another one of those, right.

He's another one, exactly another one.

He's another one, exactly another one.

In every hero story, Yeah.

In every hero story, Yeah.

Exactly, which I think is all part of it. Like if again, if thinking about what your reader who's never read the mesial Phosies is reading them, these these then Caineus, they go, I know that man that you know that is a powerful heroic superhero man from the Age of Heroes, from the Iliadrim, all these other books. So I think Virgil's already saying, but what if he was a woman, And then Ovid goes, what if I can exploit this even more and make this into the whole story if the whole story is not really about him being this heroic man, but it's actually about how he became the heroic man. Yeah, because in book eight when he turns up, yeah, he's there. And I'll give you the Latin because it's quite. It's quite. You can read it in a couple of ways. We get so it's a long category of all the heroes who are helping out Mellieger and Atalanta kill Caledonian Or and we get yam Non femina Caineus, so no longer a woman Caineus. But Ovid's not mentioned before, so clearly it's going. You remember in Virgil when he was a woman, but he is now a man and then was a woman again. Well, now he's no longer a woman. Yeah, and now four books later, I'm going to tell you the story of why he's no longer a woman. So it's yeah, he's playing around with that so much liberally.

Exactly, which I think is all part of it. Like if again, if thinking about what your reader who's never read the mesial Phosies is reading them, these these then Caineus, they go, I know that man that you know that is a powerful heroic superhero man from the Age of Heroes, from the Iliadrim, all these other books. So I think Virgil's already saying, but what if he was a woman, And then Ovid goes, what if I can exploit this even more and make this into the whole story if the whole story is not really about him being this heroic man, but it's actually about how he became the heroic man. Yeah, because in book eight when he turns up, yeah, he's there. And I'll give you the Latin because it's quite. It's quite. You can read it in a couple of ways. We get so it's a long category of all the heroes who are helping out Mellieger and Atalanta kill Caledonian Or and we get yam Non femina Caineus, so no longer a woman Caineus. But Ovid's not mentioned before, so clearly it's going. You remember in Virgil when he was a woman, but he is now a man and then was a woman again. Well, now he's no longer a woman. Yeah, and now four books later, I'm going to tell you the story of why he's no longer a woman. So it's yeah, he's playing around with that so much liberally.

Well, and I wonder if the Virgil is necessarily attempting to say that he was a woman again in the underworld or was if he was just included because he was once a woman. Yeah, because by saying Caneus and not well though, I guess we can't necessarily know if the name Canus was would have been known as the alternative. But yeah, that's interesting.

Well, and I wonder if the Virgil is necessarily attempting to say that he was a woman again in the underworld or was if he was just included because he was once a woman. Yeah, because by saying Caneus and not well though, I guess we can't necessarily know if the name Canus was would have been known as the alternative. But yeah, that's interesting.

He definitely says that. Yeah, and it's it's a little bit ambiguous because so it's literally he goes as a companion also, who was once a man, once a young man, now a woman. Canaeus once again turned back into his old form by fate. But what was the old form? A man or a woman?

He definitely says that. Yeah, and it's it's a little bit ambiguous because so it's literally he goes as a companion also, who was once a man, once a young man, now a woman. Canaeus once again turned back into his old form by fate. But what was the old form? A man or a woman?

You know? Yeah, huh.

You know? Yeah, huh.

It's so deliberately playing around with it. So just being goes there's a myth I can exploit. And if I'm doing my poem all about transformation, here's a story where I can talk about transformation and look, maybe I'm not just transforming the gender of this character and also transforming the literary tradition. Do you see what I did there? You know? Loves?

It's so deliberately playing around with it. So just being goes there's a myth I can exploit. And if I'm doing my poem all about transformation, here's a story where I can talk about transformation and look, maybe I'm not just transforming the gender of this character and also transforming the literary tradition. Do you see what I did there? You know? Loves?

Yeah, very that's so, that's so interesting. I how a thought happen and then my brain lost it. What I'm gonna lose it? And that's fine. No, I just that's really interesting. I'm I'm fascinated by just like how Avid plays with this stuff. And I mean, I just I guess I'm just like trying to wrap my head around just like all of it, I guess. But it is now the seeing this comparison between Caneus and if this is really interesting. Oh that was what you said something earlier that I I forgot that the whole thing about Kinnus is that is that his skin. Yeah is what did you you said? Unbreakable?

Yeah, very that's so, that's so interesting. I how a thought happen and then my brain lost it. What I'm gonna lose it? And that's fine. No, I just that's really interesting. I'm I'm fascinated by just like how Avid plays with this stuff. And I mean, I just I guess I'm just like trying to wrap my head around just like all of it, I guess. But it is now the seeing this comparison between Caneus and if this is really interesting. Oh that was what you said something earlier that I I forgot that the whole thing about Kinnus is that is that his skin. Yeah is what did you you said? Unbreakable?

Yeah? Unbreakable, because I think that's what the from memory, I think that's what he's explicitly called in Apollonius of Rose up in Nauticus, of the kind of Hellenistic poem. He's unbreakable there.

Yeah? Unbreakable, because I think that's what the from memory, I think that's what he's explicitly called in Apollonius of Rose up in Nauticus, of the kind of Hellenistic poem. He's unbreakable there.

Yeah, yeah, because all I can think about that is the alternative word being impenetrable.

Yeah, yeah, because all I can think about that is the alternative word being impenetrable.

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, And that's the other I think that was the you know, the thing that I realized in writing this article is that actually there is this paradigm, this system of masculinity at Rome that we associate particularly with the end of the Republic, so like the forties, fifties BC, going through to the early Empire, so the kind of twenties thirties BC going through early century, early decades, and see which.

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, And that's the other I think that was the you know, the thing that I realized in writing this article is that actually there is this paradigm, this system of masculinity at Rome that we associate particularly with the end of the Republic, so like the forties, fifties BC, going through to the early Empire, so the kind of twenties thirties BC going through early century, early decades, and see which.

Is exactly not writing, which is that masculinity is all about being impenetrable in so many different ways, like impenetrable socially because no one can come and mess with you, impenetrable physically because you shouldn't be stabbed by weapons, but also impenetrable sexually because actually there's this whole thing that particularly comes out in nineties scholarship that being a man at Rome is about being a penetrator. That's a penetrator of sexually. It's also a penetrator in like literary and philosophical ways. But m and that's kind of how you can define a man as opposed to any of the other gender groups who are floating around Rome, like enslaved people and women and children, they're all the opposite to a man in that sense.

Is exactly not writing, which is that masculinity is all about being impenetrable in so many different ways, like impenetrable socially because no one can come and mess with you, impenetrable physically because you shouldn't be stabbed by weapons, but also impenetrable sexually because actually there's this whole thing that particularly comes out in nineties scholarship that being a man at Rome is about being a penetrator. That's a penetrator of sexually. It's also a penetrator in like literary and philosophical ways. But m and that's kind of how you can define a man as opposed to any of the other gender groups who are floating around Rome, like enslaved people and women and children, they're all the opposite to a man in that sense.

Oh antiquity.

Oh antiquity.

Yeah, it's a joy, isn't it. You know, it's one of those fun things my students as look at me like what are you talking about when I'm yeah, we're going to use the word genders at this point, and we're gonna have to talk about like women and children and in states people, it's a different gender to men, because if this is a gender construction and being a man as being a penetrator and they're not penetrated, then there are different gender to men, and like that's okay, actually yeah, not in the way they liked or signed up to. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a joy, isn't it. You know, it's one of those fun things my students as look at me like what are you talking about when I'm yeah, we're going to use the word genders at this point, and we're gonna have to talk about like women and children and in states people, it's a different gender to men, because if this is a gender construction and being a man as being a penetrator and they're not penetrated, then there are different gender to men, and like that's okay, actually yeah, not in the way they liked or signed up to. Yeah.

Really, My my biggest thing that I've just been saying into so many episodes lately is that I'm just obsessed with the idea that Athenian women were off having sex with each other all the time because men did not have any like, they didn't conceptualize sex as anything other than penetration. So they were just like, nah, the women are just hanging out. They're like lumen together all the time, you know, they don't care.

Really, My my biggest thing that I've just been saying into so many episodes lately is that I'm just obsessed with the idea that Athenian women were off having sex with each other all the time because men did not have any like, they didn't conceptualize sex as anything other than penetration. So they were just like, nah, the women are just hanging out. They're like lumen together all the time, you know, they don't care.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, I love that.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, I love that.

Yeah, like just yeah, this idea that's like it's just like all about that, because of course, like even even in all of the you know, male relationships in Athens, it was still all about who was penetrating home.

Yeah, like just yeah, this idea that's like it's just like all about that, because of course, like even even in all of the you know, male relationships in Athens, it was still all about who was penetrating home.

Absolutely absolutely, like it all comes down to that, and see why that becomes such a fascinating the scholarion He was like, this is such a weird model. It's such a specific model, like and it doesn't get broken that often, like sometimes it gets broken, but not that often. So yeah, So if if Kineus is like already mythologically impenetrable, and Ovid wants to stress that, I'm making him into a man, and the way he gets to do that is by saying he's a man because he's impenetrable, and like those two kids get together, and so when he goes when so after Nestor's telling the story in the in the battles and Nestle telling the story about like Kineus is a soldier and it's the battle between the Centers the lapiss and Kinaus is now a young Lapis hero fighting the Centaurs. He goes, well, I'm gonna make it really explicitly that he is completely impenetrable and he can't be defeated by their swords read. They also can't fuck him, like he is totally indestructible because no one can enter him, and he's going to go and enter everywhere else in the battlefield. And suddenly you began to look at the descriptions of the battles that Kine does when he's fighting these centaurs, and it's like he stabbed them, he put a big thing in them. He made a wound on top of a wound on top of a wound, and you go, oh, no, this is this is not subtle of it, like at all. Yeah, this is really explicit.

Absolutely absolutely, like it all comes down to that, and see why that becomes such a fascinating the scholarion He was like, this is such a weird model. It's such a specific model, like and it doesn't get broken that often, like sometimes it gets broken, but not that often. So yeah, So if if Kineus is like already mythologically impenetrable, and Ovid wants to stress that, I'm making him into a man, and the way he gets to do that is by saying he's a man because he's impenetrable, and like those two kids get together, and so when he goes when so after Nestor's telling the story in the in the battles and Nestle telling the story about like Kineus is a soldier and it's the battle between the Centers the lapiss and Kinaus is now a young Lapis hero fighting the Centaurs. He goes, well, I'm gonna make it really explicitly that he is completely impenetrable and he can't be defeated by their swords read. They also can't fuck him, like he is totally indestructible because no one can enter him, and he's going to go and enter everywhere else in the battlefield. And suddenly you began to look at the descriptions of the battles that Kine does when he's fighting these centaurs, and it's like he stabbed them, he put a big thing in them. He made a wound on top of a wound on top of a wound, and you go, oh, no, this is this is not subtle of it, like at all. Yeah, this is really explicit.

Which Avid did love to Avid of.

Which Avid did love to Avid of.

Course, like would he be the same poet if he wasn't like constantly having sex scenes that actually looked like battle.

Course, like would he be the same poet if he wasn't like constantly having sex scenes that actually looked like battle.

No, no, well, and I just yeah, the penetrating that the salient field was like.

No, no, well, and I just yeah, the penetrating that the salient field was like.

Just it was like a preface to penetrating the like centaurs who were in those Salian fields later on.

Just it was like a preface to penetrating the like centaurs who were in those Salian fields later on.

Yeah, yeah, it's just like all of it. He just he liked to penetrate. That's all we know say about.

Yeah, yeah, it's just like all of it. He just he liked to penetrate. That's all we know say about.

Good for him.

Good for him.

But but this transformation that does so explicitly make Kneus a penetrator, you know, when he becomes a man, but is so subtle with if this is such an interesting like comparison. Yeah, so, I mean, yeah, did like imagine you talked about that, but like, did you come to any conclusions about like what, yeah, what this means or what it could mean?

But but this transformation that does so explicitly make Kneus a penetrator, you know, when he becomes a man, but is so subtle with if this is such an interesting like comparison. Yeah, so, I mean, yeah, did like imagine you talked about that, but like, did you come to any conclusions about like what, yeah, what this means or what it could mean?

I guess, like I guess that this is one of those places where it's really nice to acknowledge that our modern world has given us a range of language that the ancients didn't necessarily have, and we can talk about like being at various spectrums on us, various places on a spectrum of gender that like, not every man has to be it has to be kind. It's like we can't. Some of us are going to fall short of that. But you can have these different things that are both definitely masculinities, that are both definitely ways of being a man, but doing that in slightly different ways, neither of them deviating too much from what it means to be a man at Rome, because to be a man has very specific rules, and as far as we can tell, they both meet those rules. And the even though of it is really explicit about as being a penetrator, he still needs room for us to think about iphis is are penetrated too, because the very last line of the iphist story, which is sort of the last line of book nine because it ends with this story, is a little votive offering that give to the goddess isis and they say thank you. The boy I fish potty tour his woman is the verb, and potto tour is this verb which means like to possess, but usually to possess or at least of it, very often to possess in a sexual way. So he does end with this moment of penetration, even though it's kind of not explicit, there is the last moment of penetration. So they're both men in different way, isn't That's okay?

I guess, like I guess that this is one of those places where it's really nice to acknowledge that our modern world has given us a range of language that the ancients didn't necessarily have, and we can talk about like being at various spectrums on us, various places on a spectrum of gender that like, not every man has to be it has to be kind. It's like we can't. Some of us are going to fall short of that. But you can have these different things that are both definitely masculinities, that are both definitely ways of being a man, but doing that in slightly different ways, neither of them deviating too much from what it means to be a man at Rome, because to be a man has very specific rules, and as far as we can tell, they both meet those rules. And the even though of it is really explicit about as being a penetrator, he still needs room for us to think about iphis is are penetrated too, because the very last line of the iphist story, which is sort of the last line of book nine because it ends with this story, is a little votive offering that give to the goddess isis and they say thank you. The boy I fish potty tour his woman is the verb, and potto tour is this verb which means like to possess, but usually to possess or at least of it, very often to possess in a sexual way. So he does end with this moment of penetration, even though it's kind of not explicit, there is the last moment of penetration. So they're both men in different way, isn't That's okay?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and that's that's basically what I would also think of just from this conversation. And I think that that again is such a powerful like acknowledgment in the ancient world, even of this kind of spectrum of the different forms and you know the ways that yeah, for all the way for all that IFAs cares, he's a man, like he gets what he wants, he gets to marry ayanthe like happily ever after, So like for all the ways that that matters to either of these people, they.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and that's that's basically what I would also think of just from this conversation. And I think that that again is such a powerful like acknowledgment in the ancient world, even of this kind of spectrum of the different forms and you know the ways that yeah, for all the way for all that IFAs cares, he's a man, like he gets what he wants, he gets to marry ayanthe like happily ever after, So like for all the ways that that matters to either of these people, they.

Are men because I guess, yeah, that's a really interesting thing with the IFAs story that I don't think I ever really thought about. So you know, he's been raised as a man for probably the first thirteen years. Was like this sort of specifies as thirteen what would it suddenly mean if he was uncovered and asked to live his life as a woman Like that would not be a natural state of affairs for everyone who wants to push back and say, well, this is because then you know, IFIs has this speech, and that's the we can't ignore the ipes has this long speech, which is why I started looking to in the first place. If you remember going back to like these people, right the speeches when he says I'm really uncomfortable with everything. Everything's making me unhappy, like what is this world? And he brings up all these mythological examples and says, well, like pacifying was pretty rubbish, but at least she got her man, Like, what what does it mean that I can't even do that? Like I'm so unnatural that I can't even get treated like pacified. That's a really disturbing thing to say about yourself, and people will point to this and say, well, this again, this is the patriarchy. This is a woman suffering under the patriarchy, and she's not able to express her her unhappiness in it in a kind of coherent way. So what she does is bringing these weird mythical examples in and I can't If someone wants to read it that way, it's totally fair. But to me that just feels like someone who has no idea how to be a woman, what it would mean to be a woman if the next day, you know, I just speak to anthy and Anty says, I don't want you. I want you to address as a woman. Now what would that like? That wouldn't work, And so there's definitely a lot of traua and discomfort in life is the speech there, But I don't necessarily equates to like I really want to be a woman either.