Oh hi, hello there, I am liv and this is Let's talk about Miss Baby, and I am here with yet another conversation episode. And as always questioning why I sing the title of my podcast, now, let me just say that there is a few like are a little wild coincidence happening in this episode, and that is aside from the fact that it was just like seriously fun and genuinely hilarious to record. So I spoke with Jerome Ruddick, who's studying his PhD at Newcastle University in the UK, and he told me everything I didn't know that I needed to know about material culture and real life humans interacting with their mythology during the Hellenistic period of ancient Greece, but specifically in regions in Arcadia, on Crete and even in the Phoenician city of Tyr which was ruled by Hellenistic Greeks at the time. We recorded this episode ages ago, actually, like before I even went to Greece. Probably we recorded it in like I wanted to say, March, maybe it was April. It was a good long time ago, but I had so many episodes recorded at that time that it's just now coming out. And what do you know, we even briefly mentioned how Aphrodite has origins in the Phoenician goddess Astarte.

Oh hi, hello there, I am liv and this is Let's talk about Miss Baby, and I am here with yet another conversation episode. And as always questioning why I sing the title of my podcast, now, let me just say that there is a few like are a little wild coincidence happening in this episode, and that is aside from the fact that it was just like seriously fun and genuinely hilarious to record. So I spoke with Jerome Ruddick, who's studying his PhD at Newcastle University in the UK, and he told me everything I didn't know that I needed to know about material culture and real life humans interacting with their mythology during the Hellenistic period of ancient Greece, but specifically in regions in Arcadia, on Crete and even in the Phoenician city of Tyr which was ruled by Hellenistic Greeks at the time. We recorded this episode ages ago, actually, like before I even went to Greece. Probably we recorded it in like I wanted to say, March, maybe it was April. It was a good long time ago, but I had so many episodes recorded at that time that it's just now coming out. And what do you know, we even briefly mentioned how Aphrodite has origins in the Phoenician goddess Astarte.

What are the chances? I love it? And Jerome talks about how she's not alone. The Phoenician hero Melkart also gets major ties to the Greek hero obviously Heracles particular during this period. Absolutely fascinating. Anyway, it was super fun, super fascinating. Jerome was fucking hilarious and called Pausanius big Pe multiple times as though that was just like the only thing to call him, and frankly, it's just become one of my favorite things, you know. So here we are conversations not to have a go at big Pa Pausanius material culture in the Hellenistic period with Jerome Ruddick. I really was excited about the topic you presented because I obviously know Greek mythology like the back of my hand, like really know. The story is like far too well at this point I think.

What are the chances? I love it? And Jerome talks about how she's not alone. The Phoenician hero Melkart also gets major ties to the Greek hero obviously Heracles particular during this period. Absolutely fascinating. Anyway, it was super fun, super fascinating. Jerome was fucking hilarious and called Pausanius big Pe multiple times as though that was just like the only thing to call him, and frankly, it's just become one of my favorite things, you know. So here we are conversations not to have a go at big Pa Pausanius material culture in the Hellenistic period with Jerome Ruddick. I really was excited about the topic you presented because I obviously know Greek mythology like the back of my hand, like really know. The story is like far too well at this point I think.

You probably know it bets that I do. To be honest, actually I'm actually a lot better than I do.

You probably know it bets that I do. To be honest, actually I'm actually a lot better than I do.

I'm I really like, I yeah, I don't try to hold back on my knowledge at this point. It is kind of excessive. The stuff that lives in my brain. But one of the things that I don't know that much about is like actual daily like life when it comes to this stuff. You know, like I know the sources and I know the stories, but one of the things that's so exciting about what you kind of proposed is this way of kind of talking about it in relation to the actual humans of that world. So like, why don't you just start by telling me like a little bit, what about what you study and when it comes to that and kind of yeah, really anything you want to say, but sort of an introduction on what you what you do.

I'm I really like, I yeah, I don't try to hold back on my knowledge at this point. It is kind of excessive. The stuff that lives in my brain. But one of the things that I don't know that much about is like actual daily like life when it comes to this stuff. You know, like I know the sources and I know the stories, but one of the things that's so exciting about what you kind of proposed is this way of kind of talking about it in relation to the actual humans of that world. So like, why don't you just start by telling me like a little bit, what about what you study and when it comes to that and kind of yeah, really anything you want to say, but sort of an introduction on what you what you do.

Oh okay, So I'm at the moment, I'm studying I'm studying Greek mythology, but I'm studying it in relation to identity and material culture. So it's how it's how that you function with one another, and how not any Greek mythology couldtributes to Greek identity, but how material culture is this like really important factor in allowing these myths to find root in these Greek communities and kind of make them more tangible, more kind of verifiable, you know, like really build them into Greek society. And that's that's really what I'm doing. And I'm looking at three communities as we do so at the moment, which we'll expand later. And that's crete place in Arcadia called like a Surah and the Phoenician and some of the Phoenicians tie on the eleven tine coats. O. Nice, that's very exact geographical mix.

Oh okay, So I'm at the moment, I'm studying I'm studying Greek mythology, but I'm studying it in relation to identity and material culture. So it's how it's how that you function with one another, and how not any Greek mythology couldtributes to Greek identity, but how material culture is this like really important factor in allowing these myths to find root in these Greek communities and kind of make them more tangible, more kind of verifiable, you know, like really build them into Greek society. And that's that's really what I'm doing. And I'm looking at three communities as we do so at the moment, which we'll expand later. And that's crete place in Arcadia called like a Surah and the Phoenician and some of the Phoenicians tie on the eleven tine coats. O. Nice, that's very exact geographical mix.

Yeah, okay, I now already have so many questions and you've literally said like two things. But first, I think so because obviously, like my show is really for just like any old person who wants to learn about this stuff, which is the best part. But why don't can you just like give a quick explanation about like what material culture entails?

Yeah, okay, I now already have so many questions and you've literally said like two things. But first, I think so because obviously, like my show is really for just like any old person who wants to learn about this stuff, which is the best part. But why don't can you just like give a quick explanation about like what material culture entails?

Yeah? Absolutely so material cultures. It's really quite simple. Actually, everyone all the scholars trying to make sound complicated, but it's not. It's material culture. It's it's cups, its, it's pots, its sculpture, it's those, it's pediments on temple stuff like that. Everything, everything's material culture. A spoon is material culture.

Yeah? Absolutely so material cultures. It's really quite simple. Actually, everyone all the scholars trying to make sound complicated, but it's not. It's material culture. It's it's cups, its, it's pots, its sculpture, it's those, it's pediments on temple stuff like that. Everything, everything's material culture. A spoon is material culture.

So I think it's like physical Yeah.

So I think it's like physical Yeah.

Yeah, pretty much, obnestly pretty much. Yeah, that's it. The clothes could be a type of material culture too, so yeah.

Yeah, pretty much, obnestly pretty much. Yeah, that's it. The clothes could be a type of material culture too, so yeah.

Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, that's yeah, that's the thing, Like I've been learning more and more about that, and thankfully I get guests to come on and talk about that kind of thing. But like that's the kind of stuff that's so hard to sort of research on your own, which is why I love having these conversations. But like it does really impact so much about like the actual people like living these lives. Anyway, I'm clearly getting excited already, and I'm so yes, please tell me more about any of those places, or any of these things or literally anything.

Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, that's yeah, that's the thing, Like I've been learning more and more about that, and thankfully I get guests to come on and talk about that kind of thing. But like that's the kind of stuff that's so hard to sort of research on your own, which is why I love having these conversations. But like it does really impact so much about like the actual people like living these lives. Anyway, I'm clearly getting excited already, and I'm so yes, please tell me more about any of those places, or any of these things or literally anything.

Well, the first thing with the start, and actually you mentioned a point just about how it's hard to research material culture. I agree with that because the first time I started the research into this topic, I ended up reading this really strange book about It was about classical sculpture, but it was from I think it was from the nineteen thirties or something. It was a little bit nineteen thirties issue. You know, they're a little bit they're very they really love the Greeks, but not like we love Greeks like you a kind of weird like clonial type way. It was a bit dodging. I was reading this book, going, what am I reading here? This is a bit funky. I had to throw that aside. So that's kind of where you went up and you saw like a terriic culture like oh no, sculpture and gets weird factors. I don't blame you, basically.

Well, the first thing with the start, and actually you mentioned a point just about how it's hard to research material culture. I agree with that because the first time I started the research into this topic, I ended up reading this really strange book about It was about classical sculpture, but it was from I think it was from the nineteen thirties or something. It was a little bit nineteen thirties issue. You know, they're a little bit they're very they really love the Greeks, but not like we love Greeks like you a kind of weird like clonial type way. It was a bit dodging. I was reading this book, going, what am I reading here? This is a bit funky. I had to throw that aside. So that's kind of where you went up and you saw like a terriic culture like oh no, sculpture and gets weird factors. I don't blame you, basically.

Especially in the nineteen thirties, like that's the time period where they're like revering them as if they're just like the absolute most everything. Yeah, exactly, Like that just comes along with so much like like the Greeks are amazing, but like let's not pretend they're better than anyone else.

Especially in the nineteen thirties, like that's the time period where they're like revering them as if they're just like the absolute most everything. Yeah, exactly, Like that just comes along with so much like like the Greeks are amazing, but like let's not pretend they're better than anyone else.

Yeah that they're good, but they're like seventy percent good, not one hundred percent good. Yeah, they're good, fun, you know, middle ground good.

Yeah that they're good, but they're like seventy percent good, not one hundred percent good. Yeah, they're good, fun, you know, middle ground good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm just I'm just I'm just that was I'm slacking off the Greeks. Now, I love the Greeks. I should be doing that.

I'm just I'm just I'm just that was I'm slacking off the Greeks. Now, I love the Greeks. I should be doing that.

I mean I do it too, And it's my territoryer to love them, so we can also criticize. That's the whole point of like, yeah, I think it's important.

I mean I do it too, And it's my territoryer to love them, so we can also criticize. That's the whole point of like, yeah, I think it's important.

Reason debate discussion. Okay, so what was the question now, because I've lost it.

Reason debate discussion. Okay, so what was the question now, because I've lost it.

I mean honestly, also, I love doing this is like just just let your brain go. It's fine. I have ADHD. It goes everywhere. Yeah, yeah, And I'm also like, I mean, honestly, there's a lot of people in classics who have ADHD. It's it's kind of nice because I don't feel like my brain is going to throw everybody off. But I'm also like newly on medication and like, we'll see how anything works as I.

I mean honestly, also, I love doing this is like just just let your brain go. It's fine. I have ADHD. It goes everywhere. Yeah, yeah, And I'm also like, I mean, honestly, there's a lot of people in classics who have ADHD. It's it's kind of nice because I don't feel like my brain is going to throw everybody off. But I'm also like newly on medication and like, we'll see how anything works as I.

Have questions about that, but I won't interrupt the podcast of that questions.

Have questions about that, but I won't interrupt the podcast of that questions.

No, but I get all that interest my god. But yeah, So I mean honestly, like I just want to hear anything. So my question was on I was really just like talk about anything. But I'm excited about all those regions. But I also don't want to like jump from one or like I don't anyway, I'm getting to this.

No, but I get all that interest my god. But yeah, So I mean honestly, like I just want to hear anything. So my question was on I was really just like talk about anything. But I'm excited about all those regions. But I also don't want to like jump from one or like I don't anyway, I'm getting to this.

Let's start with them. Okay, let's start with a very brief overview. I'll do like a Surah first, because it's kind of my favorite at the moment. It's well, I think I know the most about, which is helpful to stop me from pausing and in a knowing, So like a Surrah. So it's you know, Arcadia. Hopefully everyone's familiar with that because there's so many good stories in Arcadia. So in the region of Arcadia around sort of about the central area a little bit closer towards Sparta, so that it's hard to do about a map, but hopefully you're going to put the phones and look at that. But there's a town called like Asurah, and it's near this town called Megalopolis, which becomes very important because about again, I think it's three six eight BC, right, Megalopolis kind of go crazy and they want to take over everything, like we're going to take over these towns. So they get all the sanctuaries and either they destroy them or kind of take their sanctuary bits and like collate the mid to Megalopolis. So then Megalopolis is basically the sort of cosmopolitan hubful the sanctuaries. But the interesting bit is when we read the ancent sources, like a Surrah should have been destroyed too, because it's really close to Megaopolis, but it isn't. It stays a life for some reason, like it's sanctuaries intact, it's towns intact. The microsomes are having fun and things, and they say Pasdeas says that the sources, he's the main one we have sources about for this. He's like, oh yeah, like a serious vive because of Despoina, their local goddess who in the Megalopolins are like, oh yeah, they're nice, we like her, she's cool, and they let and they let them live. So it's really fascinating because then you're like, oh, my god, myth saved them. The mythology literally saved them for being well destroyed in the worst worst case.

Let's start with them. Okay, let's start with a very brief overview. I'll do like a Surah first, because it's kind of my favorite at the moment. It's well, I think I know the most about, which is helpful to stop me from pausing and in a knowing, So like a Surrah. So it's you know, Arcadia. Hopefully everyone's familiar with that because there's so many good stories in Arcadia. So in the region of Arcadia around sort of about the central area a little bit closer towards Sparta, so that it's hard to do about a map, but hopefully you're going to put the phones and look at that. But there's a town called like Asurah, and it's near this town called Megalopolis, which becomes very important because about again, I think it's three six eight BC, right, Megalopolis kind of go crazy and they want to take over everything, like we're going to take over these towns. So they get all the sanctuaries and either they destroy them or kind of take their sanctuary bits and like collate the mid to Megalopolis. So then Megalopolis is basically the sort of cosmopolitan hubful the sanctuaries. But the interesting bit is when we read the ancent sources, like a Surrah should have been destroyed too, because it's really close to Megaopolis, but it isn't. It stays a life for some reason, like it's sanctuaries intact, it's towns intact. The microsomes are having fun and things, and they say Pasdeas says that the sources, he's the main one we have sources about for this. He's like, oh yeah, like a serious vive because of Despoina, their local goddess who in the Megalopolins are like, oh yeah, they're nice, we like her, she's cool, and they let and they let them live. So it's really fascinating because then you're like, oh, my god, myth saved them. The mythology literally saved them for being well destroyed in the worst worst case.

I also just love the idea that are like a place called Megalopolis is like gonna take it over everything, Like I feel like with that name, it's like, well, that was bound to happen.

I also just love the idea that are like a place called Megalopolis is like gonna take it over everything, Like I feel like with that name, it's like, well, that was bound to happen.

Well, I think I think, to be fair, I think they may have created the name because particular for everything the small smaller lot Polis before and then when they start ticular like I'm going to change it to middle Lolis and then become Megapolis.

Well, I think I think, to be fair, I think they may have created the name because particular for everything the small smaller lot Polis before and then when they start ticular like I'm going to change it to middle Lolis and then become Megapolis.

There you go. Yeah, just you got to make it work, right, It's like, just convince everyone that you're the biggest by calling yourself there.

There you go. Yeah, just you got to make it work, right, It's like, just convince everyone that you're the biggest by calling yourself there.

Yeah, they're too fair. Well you know what they say, like what once again, faket team make it And apparently they made it eventually, so they got that.

Yeah, they're too fair. Well you know what they say, like what once again, faket team make it And apparently they made it eventually, so they got that.

Yeah. So Despoine is so interesting because I've done like some really base level research on like I don't even know if I've researched on something like her. But the word is also often used as an epithet, isn't it Like I feel like it? Yeah, So it's really interesting. It's like both a goddess and an epithet, so it can be used along with like other goddesses, but then like as a physical or not physical obviously, but as like an actual technical goddess. Is she really specific to that area of Arcadia?

Yeah. So Despoine is so interesting because I've done like some really base level research on like I don't even know if I've researched on something like her. But the word is also often used as an epithet, isn't it Like I feel like it? Yeah, So it's really interesting. It's like both a goddess and an epithet, so it can be used along with like other goddesses, but then like as a physical or not physical obviously, but as like an actual technical goddess. Is she really specific to that area of Arcadia?

Oh? She is not? Off hand, I appreciate it, like you're very shit hot on your stuff. We're dish of expected, but like you know, yeah beautiful, So yeah, she, yeah, she is. She's very specific. So basically this is interesting. Dspoyna is supposed to be we think persephone, you know, the springtime, all that Haiti stuff, So apparently it's another form of her, right, but they call it Daspoyner, and it's a bit of a mix whether or not. That's supposed to be like a sort of cultic like mysteries and Lucian mysteries name for her or something else. But it's supposed to translate to the mistress and basanias in his text also goes, we don't know her real name, and no one says it, you know, like so it's getting really mysterious and kind of a little bit like I don't know the word I'm looking I don't know what good word I'm looking for, kind of sexy, like you know, it's really kind of titilating. But but no, it's it is a very specific name to spoilne Is. She is very very specific to Arcadia, and I think there are some references of her, and I think it's like I'm on some of these smaller Greek islands, but it's pretty rare. It's it's not not universal. No, no, no, she is absolutely like Assyrian goddess, an Arcadian goddess. She's very in that region. Yeah, she's very cool.

Oh? She is not? Off hand, I appreciate it, like you're very shit hot on your stuff. We're dish of expected, but like you know, yeah beautiful, So yeah, she, yeah, she is. She's very specific. So basically this is interesting. Dspoyna is supposed to be we think persephone, you know, the springtime, all that Haiti stuff, So apparently it's another form of her, right, but they call it Daspoyner, and it's a bit of a mix whether or not. That's supposed to be like a sort of cultic like mysteries and Lucian mysteries name for her or something else. But it's supposed to translate to the mistress and basanias in his text also goes, we don't know her real name, and no one says it, you know, like so it's getting really mysterious and kind of a little bit like I don't know the word I'm looking I don't know what good word I'm looking for, kind of sexy, like you know, it's really kind of titilating. But but no, it's it is a very specific name to spoilne Is. She is very very specific to Arcadia, and I think there are some references of her, and I think it's like I'm on some of these smaller Greek islands, but it's pretty rare. It's it's not not universal. No, no, no, she is absolutely like Assyrian goddess, an Arcadian goddess. She's very in that region. Yeah, she's very cool.

It's okay, here's more of my like deeply niche and unspecific knowledge that's really contradictory. Regardless. So I when I was last in Athens at the Archaeological Museum, they have this thing there the like I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, because it's.

It's okay, here's more of my like deeply niche and unspecific knowledge that's really contradictory. Regardless. So I when I was last in Athens at the Archaeological Museum, they have this thing there the like I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, because it's.

Like I have idea, but please go ahead. Yeah.

Like I have idea, but please go ahead. Yeah.

Yeah, so I'm going to try to like describe it. But it's basically it's marble, but it's a like marble rendition of like a piece of clothing, and it's incredible. It's like all these folds and like it's unbelievable and it's all about her and like there's so many things on it. So is that, like you clearly know what I'm talking about obviously, because it's amazing. But is that something you've studied specifically, because I would love to know more about it.

Yeah, so I'm going to try to like describe it. But it's basically it's marble, but it's a like marble rendition of like a piece of clothing, and it's incredible. It's like all these folds and like it's unbelievable and it's all about her and like there's so many things on it. So is that, like you clearly know what I'm talking about obviously, because it's amazing. But is that something you've studied specifically, because I would love to know more about it.

Yes, it is something I study specifically.

Yes, it is something I study specifically.

I forget what it.

I forget what it.

Oh, so it's it's cool. Then to spoint is veil or the veil of Dispoina, and it would have been attached to the back of her I min mean this, but I know no one can see it, so just done, picture me my meaning there's a veil coming out of the back of her head. And this is literally what their of study. So I can tell you quite a lot of doubt it if.

Oh, so it's it's cool. Then to spoint is veil or the veil of Dispoina, and it would have been attached to the back of her I min mean this, but I know no one can see it, so just done, picture me my meaning there's a veil coming out of the back of her head. And this is literally what their of study. So I can tell you quite a lot of doubt it if.

You please, because also I can share pictures of it when I share the episode because I took somebody I forget who it was, but somebody on Twitter like classics Twitter like asked me or just put out a call being like I need pictures of and I was like I'm one of the archaeological museum, Like tomorrow, I can take them, so.

You please, because also I can share pictures of it when I share the episode because I took somebody I forget who it was, but somebody on Twitter like classics Twitter like asked me or just put out a call being like I need pictures of and I was like I'm one of the archaeological museum, Like tomorrow, I can take them, so.

I have pictures too. To the point, I was there taking pictures of it, and the people in the museum were staring at me weirdly because I've been there for ten minutes taking pictures, and I was like, I looked at them, and my wife came up to me as well, and she was like, you need to stop taking pictures because I think they think you're like planted a bomb or something on the veil. Good.

I have pictures too. To the point, I was there taking pictures of it, and the people in the museum were staring at me weirdly because I've been there for ten minutes taking pictures, and I was like, I looked at them, and my wife came up to me as well, and she was like, you need to stop taking pictures because I think they think you're like planted a bomb or something on the veil. Good.

Yeah, I took like every single angle. I think I have like twenty pictures of that piece.

Yeah, I took like every single angle. I think I have like twenty pictures of that piece.

Oh yeah, no, that's absolutely you need to because it's it's so intricate. It's really it's not it's cool. Okay, I'll tell I'll tell you about it. Okay, I'll tell you the the most interesting thing I think about it. I think the most interesting thing about this, And this is coming from this is not entirely on me. This this is from a scholar called Planetice I believe on planet Is who basically did most of the the the legwork as far as far as I can tell about this, but basically it looks like the so the cult group in general, the whole court group of Despoina, but particularly the veil. It looks like it's like collated mythologies from across the Arcadian region, right, So it's stuff like there's Zeus, there's Side in the Pass, there's there's there's zoomorphic images, so like a huge hybrid figures, like you know, half human half animal, and it seems to have collected all these Arcadian myths, all these local Arcadian myths, and put them on this veil. And it's really interesting why they've done that, And I've got some opinions. I'll share that and then like a separate bit, but I've got some opinions on why. But it's really fascinating. So they use material culture basically to get all these myths and kind of shove them into like a SIA, so like a series, kind of a sort of a patron, a holder, a guardian of all of them, which is, well, I haven't I think you only really see it at a sleepy the escleep on you Sclepias. They usually like collato loads of mythologies there, but otherwise I don't know if I've seen that happen anywhere else. I'm sure there's someone listening who goes, oh, there's tons. You're a fool. You haven't you know, I don't.

Oh yeah, no, that's absolutely you need to because it's it's so intricate. It's really it's not it's cool. Okay, I'll tell I'll tell you about it. Okay, I'll tell you the the most interesting thing I think about it. I think the most interesting thing about this, And this is coming from this is not entirely on me. This this is from a scholar called Planetice I believe on planet Is who basically did most of the the the legwork as far as far as I can tell about this, but basically it looks like the so the cult group in general, the whole court group of Despoina, but particularly the veil. It looks like it's like collated mythologies from across the Arcadian region, right, So it's stuff like there's Zeus, there's Side in the Pass, there's there's there's zoomorphic images, so like a huge hybrid figures, like you know, half human half animal, and it seems to have collected all these Arcadian myths, all these local Arcadian myths, and put them on this veil. And it's really interesting why they've done that, And I've got some opinions. I'll share that and then like a separate bit, but I've got some opinions on why. But it's really fascinating. So they use material culture basically to get all these myths and kind of shove them into like a SIA, so like a series, kind of a sort of a patron, a holder, a guardian of all of them, which is, well, I haven't I think you only really see it at a sleepy the escleep on you Sclepias. They usually like collato loads of mythologies there, but otherwise I don't know if I've seen that happen anywhere else. I'm sure there's someone listening who goes, oh, there's tons. You're a fool. You haven't you know, I don't.

I don't know too much about integrates. It's fine, but we can't know every year.

I don't know too much about integrates. It's fine, but we can't know every year.

It's a big it's a big country, you know, and they spread out so far that you have to look at like half of Asia before you can really start.

It's a big it's a big country, you know, and they spread out so far that you have to look at like half of Asia before you can really start.

Yeah, that piece is so incredible too, because, like I feel, I mean, I'm sure it wasn't necessarily unique in the ancient world, but in terms of what survives, it's fairly unique in the way that it is so incredibly detailed, like you're saying, featuring all of these different myths and like characters and things and just like one like marble piece of fabric.

Yeah, that piece is so incredible too, because, like I feel, I mean, I'm sure it wasn't necessarily unique in the ancient world, but in terms of what survives, it's fairly unique in the way that it is so incredibly detailed, like you're saying, featuring all of these different myths and like characters and things and just like one like marble piece of fabric.

M Yeah it is. They they've really gone they've really gone overboard. But one of the most interesting bits about it, and to give a form like a visual picture, is there's along the bottom there's a string of dancing animals, like half human half animal figures dancing. They think they're danced in festivals. They're playing like bagpipe, not bagpipes, not playing that Scots. I don't think the Greeks had those. I think we can reliably say they're playing flutes and such, and then they're dancing around liars and flutes and it's it's it looks like basically it's an image of festival. So it's looking like like a sura or maybe maybe may have had like a regional like a festival, a regional festival which they had took place in like a We don't know as well, because the town is basically gone. They haven't found any evidence for it. Like we know it exists because there's some work by a few very talented scholars who have who have apparently looked at the rocks so the mountains around and be like, oh, I could see there was a town there, and I'm looking at going. I mean, I consider myself an archaeologist. I did. I had to sit in a muddy field and dig for two years, but I'm like, uh, I can't see that. But anyway, they did, and apparently there was a town and it may have happened in that town, but we can't find the town, so we don't know if it happened. It does like a festival happened based on what the fe says because of the dancing animals, which is super cool yeah, there's like some sort of like magic festival going on which we don't know about.

M Yeah it is. They they've really gone they've really gone overboard. But one of the most interesting bits about it, and to give a form like a visual picture, is there's along the bottom there's a string of dancing animals, like half human half animal figures dancing. They think they're danced in festivals. They're playing like bagpipe, not bagpipes, not playing that Scots. I don't think the Greeks had those. I think we can reliably say they're playing flutes and such, and then they're dancing around liars and flutes and it's it's it looks like basically it's an image of festival. So it's looking like like a sura or maybe maybe may have had like a regional like a festival, a regional festival which they had took place in like a We don't know as well, because the town is basically gone. They haven't found any evidence for it. Like we know it exists because there's some work by a few very talented scholars who have who have apparently looked at the rocks so the mountains around and be like, oh, I could see there was a town there, and I'm looking at going. I mean, I consider myself an archaeologist. I did. I had to sit in a muddy field and dig for two years, but I'm like, uh, I can't see that. But anyway, they did, and apparently there was a town and it may have happened in that town, but we can't find the town, so we don't know if it happened. It does like a festival happened based on what the fe says because of the dancing animals, which is super cool yeah, there's like some sort of like magic festival going on which we don't know about.

I mean, God, Like, there's just so much stuff like that where you're like, just this thing that like maybe was a thing, but we have no proof of it. But what if it was. If it was, Like it's like half of ancient Greece, and I fucking love it.

I mean, God, Like, there's just so much stuff like that where you're like, just this thing that like maybe was a thing, but we have no proof of it. But what if it was. If it was, Like it's like half of ancient Greece, and I fucking love it.

It's it's it's it's it's a mystery box. Grease is a mystery box so much.

It's it's it's it's it's a mystery box. Grease is a mystery box so much.

That's why it's the best. Yeah, I agree that is I love that, and I love that I could remember that piece so well, but like.

That's why it's the best. Yeah, I agree that is I love that, and I love that I could remember that piece so well, but like.

A plus, like I mean, I don't want it so like like yeah, yeah, it's funny crazy.

A plus, like I mean, I don't want it so like like yeah, yeah, it's funny crazy.

It's like if I learn a thing once about ancient Greece, it tends to stick in my head forever. Nothing that I need on a daily basis, but ancient Greece. Yeah, it's sticks.

It's like if I learn a thing once about ancient Greece, it tends to stick in my head forever. Nothing that I need on a daily basis, but ancient Greece. Yeah, it's sticks.

That's pretty lucky though, because I learned something about Grease ten times and it doesn't stick in my head and then I make a note on it, and then I mean, and then I stopped. The only reason I remember this stuff is I've been doing it for three years now, and even then it took it took it took it to the second year for me to really be like, oh I can I can recall this at will you know?

That's pretty lucky though, because I learned something about Grease ten times and it doesn't stick in my head and then I make a note on it, and then I mean, and then I stopped. The only reason I remember this stuff is I've been doing it for three years now, and even then it took it took it took it to the second year for me to really be like, oh I can I can recall this at will you know?

So exciting? Yeah, yeah, so okay, is there any other pieces from that area that are I mean, I don't know if anything is quite as interesting as that particular piece, but like when it comes to that like material culture of that region, not.

So exciting? Yeah, yeah, so okay, is there any other pieces from that area that are I mean, I don't know if anything is quite as interesting as that particular piece, but like when it comes to that like material culture of that region, not.

Of a veil, but of zoomorphic type images there is from my Greek really sucks. I'm going to bok to this name. And I don't know about figure thiker Lea. I think it's it's pilgea Pilga or one of those. It's it's it's it's in the Arcadia again, but it's got They call it Black Demeter, and it's because apparently she's supposed to have the head of a goat. So very Arcadian really, because Arcadia is also a place where they were supposed to have made Pan as well, you know, the god of the wild. Gee. I just learned of Pan from Percy Jackson. That's where I first met him. But yeah, so they so it's very Arcadian. These hybrid figures are super Arcadian. You've see them all the places too. I'm not going to pretend they're completely unique, but they are. They're pretty Arcadian, you know, it's a real staple of Arcadian mythology to have hybrid things.

Of a veil, but of zoomorphic type images there is from my Greek really sucks. I'm going to bok to this name. And I don't know about figure thiker Lea. I think it's it's pilgea Pilga or one of those. It's it's it's it's in the Arcadia again, but it's got They call it Black Demeter, and it's because apparently she's supposed to have the head of a goat. So very Arcadian really, because Arcadia is also a place where they were supposed to have made Pan as well, you know, the god of the wild. Gee. I just learned of Pan from Percy Jackson. That's where I first met him. But yeah, so they so it's very Arcadian. These hybrid figures are super Arcadian. You've see them all the places too. I'm not going to pretend they're completely unique, but they are. They're pretty Arcadian, you know, it's a real staple of Arcadian mythology to have hybrid things.

Well in Arcadia is like the whole. I mean, it's like kind of the center of the Peloponnese, right, and then it's just very wild and like I feel like it's the place, right. It's also one of the places where Atalanta was like raised by bears in the mythology. Like, it's just one of those places that it doesn't surprise me that it would be sort of the most heavily associated with animals and wildlife and all of that stuff.

Well in Arcadia is like the whole. I mean, it's like kind of the center of the Peloponnese, right, and then it's just very wild and like I feel like it's the place, right. It's also one of the places where Atalanta was like raised by bears in the mythology. Like, it's just one of those places that it doesn't surprise me that it would be sort of the most heavily associated with animals and wildlife and all of that stuff.

I mean, Zeus was also supposed to be raised like him, But of course the Cretans would have something to say about that, because like handful of yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah exactly, and everyone else, everyone else. He's clayed that Zeus was born in the house somewhere, like Zeus was born here, he's our patriot. Gods.

I mean, Zeus was also supposed to be raised like him, But of course the Cretans would have something to say about that, because like handful of yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah exactly, and everyone else, everyone else. He's clayed that Zeus was born in the house somewhere, like Zeus was born here, he's our patriot. Gods.

Yeah, there's like five mountains that say that that's where Zeus was raised, And I like, to be fair.

Yeah, there's like five mountains that say that that's where Zeus was raised, And I like, to be fair.

Maybe maybe Zeus was just a very big child and he covered all these mountains. Yeah, bits of him, or or maybe Zeus had like four twin brothers and then like you know, twins at that point, four identical brothers. Then maybe he ate them all like Chronos. I don't know, who knows. It's probably more just the Greeks, the Greeks being the Greeks, which, frank you, we like this, We're going to take it and put it in our culture. Does that make sense? Doesn't have to, We don't care.

Maybe maybe Zeus was just a very big child and he covered all these mountains. Yeah, bits of him, or or maybe Zeus had like four twin brothers and then like you know, twins at that point, four identical brothers. Then maybe he ate them all like Chronos. I don't know, who knows. It's probably more just the Greeks, the Greeks being the Greeks, which, frank you, we like this, We're going to take it and put it in our culture. Does that make sense? Doesn't have to, We don't care.

You know, like enter Heracles, who went literally everywhere and did things in every different city because every one wanted a piece of him.

You know, like enter Heracles, who went literally everywhere and did things in every different city because every one wanted a piece of him.

Yeah, I will literally and he had so many kids because of all the women and men wanted to a piece of him.

Yeah, I will literally and he had so many kids because of all the women and men wanted to a piece of him.

So yeah, yeah, you just had to be everywhere.

So yeah, yeah, you just had to be everywhere.

Absolutely, I will say. I would say a last bit about our kaide. Yeah, this is this is me basically plugging the research that I'm doing and what I think is interesting. So I think my pet theory. I think some others share bits and pieces of this, but I think I think this is relatively unique to me as much as it can be, and stuff like this where everyone's done it everything. So basically it's the idea that this like a sur of Colt group basically was created by this there's two interpretations when it was created by Megalopolis. That's the boring one. I don't like that. I like the one that like serr Cras stick because it's it's more unplucky, underdog style. It's the idea that Megalopolis is basically taking over all these communities and they let like a surah stalelife. Great. But it seems that like Sir may have commissioned this ards called Damathon to come along about when is it again, I think it's one hundred and ninety eight BC or like two fifty it's it's about it's about like second to first century. He comes along, right, and he builds this statue for them, and I'm thinking they used it to try and retain like autonomies in their identity. So they're like, Okay, we're still a life. That's great. If we collect all these mythologies, you know, we collect these mythologies and all the regional places, not even could increase our own status, we could also give ourselves like a new, fresh, powerful identity to combat the kind of the pull of Megalopolis, the controlling influence of Megalopolis. And it's kind of how they established autonomy in the region by taking this statue, you know, click to all the myths in the material culture, so using it to using it basically as like a sort of mini Bible almost, you know, to like have all these plate these myths in one place and then then capitalize on that to to basically stay alive against Mechaopolis, which is I think is a fascinate if it's if it is true, which we would never know unless a new source comes out with some guy Goods who we created the statue because we want to do, which won't ever happen. But it's true. I imagine every day I imagine that I'm what he finds it so I get to take credit. But it's it's fascinating. It's really great dabasis plucky underdog trying to survive against the lure of this really powerful city, and they're using mythology to do it. That's how they get their significant power identity. It's how they survive. And that's that's fucking cool. It's terrific.

Absolutely, I will say. I would say a last bit about our kaide. Yeah, this is this is me basically plugging the research that I'm doing and what I think is interesting. So I think my pet theory. I think some others share bits and pieces of this, but I think I think this is relatively unique to me as much as it can be, and stuff like this where everyone's done it everything. So basically it's the idea that this like a sur of Colt group basically was created by this there's two interpretations when it was created by Megalopolis. That's the boring one. I don't like that. I like the one that like serr Cras stick because it's it's more unplucky, underdog style. It's the idea that Megalopolis is basically taking over all these communities and they let like a surah stalelife. Great. But it seems that like Sir may have commissioned this ards called Damathon to come along about when is it again, I think it's one hundred and ninety eight BC or like two fifty it's it's about it's about like second to first century. He comes along, right, and he builds this statue for them, and I'm thinking they used it to try and retain like autonomies in their identity. So they're like, Okay, we're still a life. That's great. If we collect all these mythologies, you know, we collect these mythologies and all the regional places, not even could increase our own status, we could also give ourselves like a new, fresh, powerful identity to combat the kind of the pull of Megalopolis, the controlling influence of Megalopolis. And it's kind of how they established autonomy in the region by taking this statue, you know, click to all the myths in the material culture, so using it to using it basically as like a sort of mini Bible almost, you know, to like have all these plate these myths in one place and then then capitalize on that to to basically stay alive against Mechaopolis, which is I think is a fascinate if it's if it is true, which we would never know unless a new source comes out with some guy Goods who we created the statue because we want to do, which won't ever happen. But it's true. I imagine every day I imagine that I'm what he finds it so I get to take credit. But it's it's fascinating. It's really great dabasis plucky underdog trying to survive against the lure of this really powerful city, and they're using mythology to do it. That's how they get their significant power identity. It's how they survive. And that's that's fucking cool. It's terrific.

Well and Okay, so I also I really don't have a good grasp on Greek history after the Classical period because I've just focused all of my interests on archaic and classical. But it's interesting to me that all of this was happening so late too, because I don't know. I always just imagine the Hellenistic period as like just all these kind of big powers across the whole of the Greek world taking control, versus having this idea of like a city in Arcadia trying to take control of like the rest of Arcadia. But I don't know anything what was happening with the Peloponnese at that time. But is it like somewhat unique or like what was the deal there?

Well and Okay, so I also I really don't have a good grasp on Greek history after the Classical period because I've just focused all of my interests on archaic and classical. But it's interesting to me that all of this was happening so late too, because I don't know. I always just imagine the Hellenistic period as like just all these kind of big powers across the whole of the Greek world taking control, versus having this idea of like a city in Arcadia trying to take control of like the rest of Arcadia. But I don't know anything what was happening with the Peloponnese at that time. But is it like somewhat unique or like what was the deal there?

You know, it's not really unique, catch because as when we go into Crete, you're about to hear exactly the same sort of story, but it's no. Basically, Alexander the Great dies obviously, and then everyone goes goes insane trying to take a rese empire. Yeah, because why can't we all just be friends and be like, you can take that bit, and you can take that bit. Oh well, but you know, so you get all these these Hellenistic kings that pop up instead because Alexander's given them the model for k shit. That's a good well, it's a good idea for one person, not for most people and then basically get expanded cities over the place. I mean, it's it's it's more complicated than that. I can't remember off the top of my head, and some Hellenistic expert on this is going to come along as I'm an idiot, but yeah, loads of kings, loads of expansion. Basically, it's like the Greek world. It's like it's again like a completely it's again a glass and like thrown on the ground, it shatters. It's all of like the Greek world just goes into pieces and everyone starts fighting for themselves. So this idea of megalopolis taking over and then a city trying to in my interpretation, we're trying to rebel against it is it isn't actually a typical for this period, really, you know what I mean. I can't think of exact examples, but no, this you probably get to see more of it if you did, if you did your research.

You know, it's not really unique, catch because as when we go into Crete, you're about to hear exactly the same sort of story, but it's no. Basically, Alexander the Great dies obviously, and then everyone goes goes insane trying to take a rese empire. Yeah, because why can't we all just be friends and be like, you can take that bit, and you can take that bit. Oh well, but you know, so you get all these these Hellenistic kings that pop up instead because Alexander's given them the model for k shit. That's a good well, it's a good idea for one person, not for most people and then basically get expanded cities over the place. I mean, it's it's it's more complicated than that. I can't remember off the top of my head, and some Hellenistic expert on this is going to come along as I'm an idiot, but yeah, loads of kings, loads of expansion. Basically, it's like the Greek world. It's like it's again like a completely it's again a glass and like thrown on the ground, it shatters. It's all of like the Greek world just goes into pieces and everyone starts fighting for themselves. So this idea of megalopolis taking over and then a city trying to in my interpretation, we're trying to rebel against it is it isn't actually a typical for this period, really, you know what I mean. I can't think of exact examples, but no, this you probably get to see more of it if you did, if you did your research.

Yeah, yeah, I've only I've had people want to talk about Hellenistic period or maybe just one, but it was more so but like the kingdoms in the East and everything too. So I just realized I have like no grasp on what was actually happening on like the Greek mainland during the Hellenistic period, which is kind of sad. But I just I mean, I like the Classical but then I get people on to talk about Hellenistic and then that's interesting too.

Yeah, yeah, I've only I've had people want to talk about Hellenistic period or maybe just one, but it was more so but like the kingdoms in the East and everything too. So I just realized I have like no grasp on what was actually happening on like the Greek mainland during the Hellenistic period, which is kind of sad. But I just I mean, I like the Classical but then I get people on to talk about Hellenistic and then that's interesting too.

Hey, that's fine. I mean, to be honest, before, I still have done this out for you. I like the Classical two as well. And then I was I remember I got told don't do the classic eafone does it do the Hellenistics. I was like, I was like, okay, fine, I'll do the Hellenistic and I was like, wait a second, this is really interesting doing this.

Hey, that's fine. I mean, to be honest, before, I still have done this out for you. I like the Classical two as well. And then I was I remember I got told don't do the classic eafone does it do the Hellenistics. I was like, I was like, okay, fine, I'll do the Hellenistic and I was like, wait a second, this is really interesting doing this.

But it's interesting because yeah, I mean, Classical is very sort of like quintessential. It's like what you think of when you imagine.

But it's interesting because yeah, I mean, Classical is very sort of like quintessential. It's like what you think of when you imagine.

It's the Classical is the Classic period.

It's the Classical is the Classic period.

Of three exactly? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I love learning more, but like Arcadia too kind of just like goes under the radar, you know, it does, especially like when you like the Classical period, because it's just sort of there. But I did learn, I mean, when I was covering Sparta recently, it was interesting to learn how much Arcadia kind of really kept itself sort of separate from the whole mythology of the rest of the Peloponnese, who were all like, you know, we're Dorians, whereas the Arcadians were like, no, we are Arcadian, Like we have been here since?

Of three exactly? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I love learning more, but like Arcadia too kind of just like goes under the radar, you know, it does, especially like when you like the Classical period, because it's just sort of there. But I did learn, I mean, when I was covering Sparta recently, it was interesting to learn how much Arcadia kind of really kept itself sort of separate from the whole mythology of the rest of the Peloponnese, who were all like, you know, we're Dorians, whereas the Arcadians were like, no, we are Arcadian, Like we have been here since?

Is it?

Is it?

Like they say they've been there since like before the moon or something cool like.

Like they say they've been there since like before the moon or something cool like.

They do well they do it says like like a sir, is the oldest city in existence, which amazing, you know, probably not to have a big p, but it's probably not true, like the oldest city of all time. You know, I probably not, but actually there is awkwuds questionence that they were around prehistoric times. Oh cool, really, so actually he probably wasn't entirely wrong. They were probably really old. The oldest city's maybe a little bit of a stretch. But he got excited, you know, you know hear me just gets excited. He goes around, right, So this.

They do well they do it says like like a sir, is the oldest city in existence, which amazing, you know, probably not to have a big p, but it's probably not true, like the oldest city of all time. You know, I probably not, but actually there is awkwuds questionence that they were around prehistoric times. Oh cool, really, so actually he probably wasn't entirely wrong. They were probably really old. The oldest city's maybe a little bit of a stretch. But he got excited, you know, you know hear me just gets excited. He goes around, right, So this.

Stuff that I like the idea of a guy from like first century is it around that for century Cee being like, yeah, I know, what's the oldest Like they've been around two thousand years so they're the oldest city ever.

Stuff that I like the idea of a guy from like first century is it around that for century Cee being like, yeah, I know, what's the oldest Like they've been around two thousand years so they're the oldest city ever.

Yeah, no, I imagine, see I was, I was when I have a picture for saying this. I always imagine he goes around he's talked to the low course and he has some old guys are actually oldest? Ship yeah, and he's like, oh really and writes it down diligently, and it's like, yep, come on, man, that guy's drunk for saying you can't trust him.

Yeah, no, I imagine, see I was, I was when I have a picture for saying this. I always imagine he goes around he's talked to the low course and he has some old guys are actually oldest? Ship yeah, and he's like, oh really and writes it down diligently, and it's like, yep, come on, man, that guy's drunk for saying you can't trust him.

You know, also like, dude, there can only be one if you're saying it's actually the oldest. Where I can imagine him being like these guys say they're the oldest, and these guys say they're the oldest, and just like.

You know, also like, dude, there can only be one if you're saying it's actually the oldest. Where I can imagine him being like these guys say they're the oldest, and these guys say they're the oldest, and just like.

Who's correct? And he's like, I don't care to write both of them down.

Who's correct? And he's like, I don't care to write both of them down.

As just exactly. I also do have to focus on you calling him big P. So thank you for yes showing that upon me.

As just exactly. I also do have to focus on you calling him big P. So thank you for yes showing that upon me.

I had to to be fair because I've realized the more and more work I do in this, the more I realized I completely reliant. PA, saynya, so I'm going you're not you know you can you can deal with the scholarly. Oh what we caught he's not blah blah reliable, but now you know what, he gave us a lot of good stuff, so you know, yes, yeah, big Pe. He deserves his nickname.

I had to to be fair because I've realized the more and more work I do in this, the more I realized I completely reliant. PA, saynya, so I'm going you're not you know you can you can deal with the scholarly. Oh what we caught he's not blah blah reliable, but now you know what, he gave us a lot of good stuff, so you know, yes, yeah, big Pe. He deserves his nickname.

He absolutely does. I did not know nearly enough about him. I swear I've only really been like learning about him for the past less than a year because I just happened to have had a bunch of guests on like unintentionally, who are just super into Pustaneus, and now I'm just kind of obsessed with him broadly. But I recently learned, and I think it'll be fine and it'll air before this episode. I'm just thinking about my timeline. But like, I recently learned that we didn't even know his name until like so many hundreds of years later, and like, like that's fascinating. He just kind of visits enigma, but turns out he's so helpful.

He absolutely does. I did not know nearly enough about him. I swear I've only really been like learning about him for the past less than a year because I just happened to have had a bunch of guests on like unintentionally, who are just super into Pustaneus, and now I'm just kind of obsessed with him broadly. But I recently learned, and I think it'll be fine and it'll air before this episode. I'm just thinking about my timeline. But like, I recently learned that we didn't even know his name until like so many hundreds of years later, and like, like that's fascinating. He just kind of visits enigma, but turns out he's so helpful.

No, I know, that is the amazing. And to be honest with you, I won't lie. I'm not going to pretend I know. I think I don't know as much part pasanias as I should, so I'm going to rely on what the other people and you know, so, yes, I'm sure we did. I didn't. I didn't actually know. We didn't know his name actually very much. I looked at his work and not as his history. But wow, yeah, okay, that's interesting.

No, I know, that is the amazing. And to be honest with you, I won't lie. I'm not going to pretend I know. I think I don't know as much part pasanias as I should, so I'm going to rely on what the other people and you know, so, yes, I'm sure we did. I didn't. I didn't actually know. We didn't know his name actually very much. I looked at his work and not as his history. But wow, yeah, okay, that's interesting.

I know I had no idea, so yeah, I had a guest on to talk about like Greece during the Roman period, and so he kind of went more into detail on Castaneus and like, yeah, it's really wild how much he sort of was like not a helpful source or not like utilized as a source until like maybe only like three hundred years ago, and just sort of was super unknown. And then we come along and we're like, wait, this is actually so helpful because like turns out this guy just walked around, asked questions and wrote them down. And how fucking cool is that.

I know I had no idea, so yeah, I had a guest on to talk about like Greece during the Roman period, and so he kind of went more into detail on Castaneus and like, yeah, it's really wild how much he sort of was like not a helpful source or not like utilized as a source until like maybe only like three hundred years ago, and just sort of was super unknown. And then we come along and we're like, wait, this is actually so helpful because like turns out this guy just walked around, asked questions and wrote them down. And how fucking cool is that.

Yeah, well, to be fair, I need to I need to say one thing about Roman's the jolly Cumlates, I believe is what I've got my supervisor. That's where he cooled to me. He said, he mocked it to himself with a jolly Cumlates. I always remember that. So that was quite funny. But I always imagine, like when I think about these old scholars, you know, right to historians, and I always I love the idea that personas may have been dodging around doing this thing, and everyone's like, we don't care, Personius, who gives a crap, you know whatever, And then and then us later and like he is a godsend because he's like the only one to survive. So he's the only work we've got, so we're like, he's amazing. Whereas obviously I don't know if there was like a geographical community and everyone was like spitching on his work, how personius he said that sityous the oldest one and that one was and he has no idea he was talking about. And there's like some great guy called like Derek the Greek and he's got like a really beautiful, like really well researched piece of work, but obvious we've lost it, so we've just got like crappy personias, you know. And then I'm not to haven't got a big p but you know what I mean, Like I just I just think it's funny that he may he may literally be the we don't know, but he may be the dregs of you know, ancient historians. But he's the only one we've got, so we're like, he is amazing.

Yeah, well, to be fair, I need to I need to say one thing about Roman's the jolly Cumlates, I believe is what I've got my supervisor. That's where he cooled to me. He said, he mocked it to himself with a jolly Cumlates. I always remember that. So that was quite funny. But I always imagine, like when I think about these old scholars, you know, right to historians, and I always I love the idea that personas may have been dodging around doing this thing, and everyone's like, we don't care, Personius, who gives a crap, you know whatever, And then and then us later and like he is a godsend because he's like the only one to survive. So he's the only work we've got, so we're like, he's amazing. Whereas obviously I don't know if there was like a geographical community and everyone was like spitching on his work, how personius he said that sityous the oldest one and that one was and he has no idea he was talking about. And there's like some great guy called like Derek the Greek and he's got like a really beautiful, like really well researched piece of work, but obvious we've lost it, so we've just got like crappy personias, you know. And then I'm not to haven't got a big p but you know what I mean, Like I just I just think it's funny that he may he may literally be the we don't know, but he may be the dregs of you know, ancient historians. But he's the only one we've got, so we're like, he is amazing.

Yeah, I mean that's the case with so many cool sources like that, where it's like we really we I don't necessarily know the deal, but it's like he's what we've got. We've got to love him, like Postanius is so interesting and I just love him. But I do think what you're saying about like him maybe being I don't even know, like I'm trying to remember what this guest, but there was like something where he was kind of seen like that. I think for like a really long time, I'm trying to remember what this guest told me.

Yeah, I mean that's the case with so many cool sources like that, where it's like we really we I don't necessarily know the deal, but it's like he's what we've got. We've got to love him, like Postanius is so interesting and I just love him. But I do think what you're saying about like him maybe being I don't even know, like I'm trying to remember what this guest, but there was like something where he was kind of seen like that. I think for like a really long time, I'm trying to remember what this guest told me.

But yeah, I don't know this. I would love to know this because this would just be hilarious to me.

But yeah, I don't know this. I would love to know this because this would just be hilarious to me.

Like, yeah, the episode will come out fairly soon, I think, or in a little while, I don't know, but like, yeah, Dan Stewart is the one who told me this, and it's like this the Roman period episode that'll be coming out. But it's just, yeah, it was really fascinating hearing kind of about what Pausanius was sort of viewed as or how he was understood in the ancient world, which is that I think he got like very little respect or appreciation in the ancient world. I know, And like, meanwhile, yeah, we come in and it's like, no, it's actually incredibly helpful to have somebody who went around and like described the things he saw because they're gone.

Like, yeah, the episode will come out fairly soon, I think, or in a little while, I don't know, but like, yeah, Dan Stewart is the one who told me this, and it's like this the Roman period episode that'll be coming out. But it's just, yeah, it was really fascinating hearing kind of about what Pausanius was sort of viewed as or how he was understood in the ancient world, which is that I think he got like very little respect or appreciation in the ancient world. I know, And like, meanwhile, yeah, we come in and it's like, no, it's actually incredibly helpful to have somebody who went around and like described the things he saw because they're gone.

Yeah, it's so amazing, I know, I do wonder like without get us two topics, I don't want to go for Greeks, but like I do wonder about if our entire society was eviscerated by a new Tomorrow and we all die, we kind of got Greek affised, where you find stragglers in the ground and you're like, oh my god, this was I do wonder what would survive enough to give people an idea of the world, Like, you know what, I don't know if Big Ben got destroy to people like there was once a big tower and they're like what you know what I mean? I want to where they would get that evidence from nowadays?

Yeah, it's so amazing, I know, I do wonder like without get us two topics, I don't want to go for Greeks, but like I do wonder about if our entire society was eviscerated by a new Tomorrow and we all die, we kind of got Greek affised, where you find stragglers in the ground and you're like, oh my god, this was I do wonder what would survive enough to give people an idea of the world, Like, you know what, I don't know if Big Ben got destroy to people like there was once a big tower and they're like what you know what I mean? I want to where they would get that evidence from nowadays?

You know if well, and we have such weird things and there's so much like time period in between that. Yeah, like you just kind of find any and everything or like find a museum and then be extra confused or I don't know. Yeah, that's interesting to think about.

You know if well, and we have such weird things and there's so much like time period in between that. Yeah, like you just kind of find any and everything or like find a museum and then be extra confused or I don't know. Yeah, that's interesting to think about.

It is.

It is.

Yes, no, no, I was just a yep, yeah, tell me about gree.

Yes, no, no, I was just a yep, yeah, tell me about gree.

Tell you about cre Okay, I will start you with crete and then I will wait for question questions help focus me. So I will start with another few Cretan the Hamnistic period. Oh god, this is interesting, this is I said really unenthusiastic when I said that it is interesting. It's not, oh, create in the Hellenistics so interesting, No, it is good. Okay. So basically a lot of scholars and other people really interested with with crete in the Minoan period, which I don't give two flying rats there was.

Tell you about cre Okay, I will start you with crete and then I will wait for question questions help focus me. So I will start with another few Cretan the Hamnistic period. Oh god, this is interesting, this is I said really unenthusiastic when I said that it is interesting. It's not, oh, create in the Hellenistics so interesting, No, it is good. Okay. So basically a lot of scholars and other people really interested with with crete in the Minoan period, which I don't give two flying rats there was.

I didn't really like pretty cool back then, but fine, it is.

I didn't really like pretty cool back then, but fine, it is.

It is cool, but like you know, it's also like, oh, well, I don't know everyone does that.

It is cool, but like you know, it's also like, oh, well, I don't know everyone does that.

I don't.

I don't.

I don't crete douring the Helistic period. It's interesting because we don't have a lot of information about it. I mean we do, but we kind of, like with all these things, we do, but we don't. But the interesting thing is crete is kind of Creeks built in an aristocratic society, much more than other places in Greece are. They're a bit they're kind of like the oh I was going to use I was going to use a bad stootype. I'm not going to use that. And they're sort of like the black sheep of the Greek world, you know, in that they're different. And there's a scholar called Plybeus, a historian rather called Polybius, who says they're all what do you say, rape, rapists and murderers, which, by the way, isn't true, as you probably can guess. It's not an entire eyeland full of rapists and murderers. But Plybeus didn't really like them. But I think it's because they killed his dabt or something at some point to you had a bit of a chip on his shoulder. Polypius, Oh my god, Plybeas was he was from Mecaplas. Oh yes, he was coming back.

I don't crete douring the Helistic period. It's interesting because we don't have a lot of information about it. I mean we do, but we kind of, like with all these things, we do, but we don't. But the interesting thing is crete is kind of Creeks built in an aristocratic society, much more than other places in Greece are. They're a bit they're kind of like the oh I was going to use I was going to use a bad stootype. I'm not going to use that. And they're sort of like the black sheep of the Greek world, you know, in that they're different. And there's a scholar called Plybeus, a historian rather called Polybius, who says they're all what do you say, rape, rapists and murderers, which, by the way, isn't true, as you probably can guess. It's not an entire eyeland full of rapists and murderers. But Plybeus didn't really like them. But I think it's because they killed his dabt or something at some point to you had a bit of a chip on his shoulder. Polypius, Oh my god, Plybeas was he was from Mecaplas. Oh yes, he was coming back.

I always think of the Athenians for stuff like that, you know, especially I.

I always think of the Athenians for stuff like that, you know, especially I.

Don't blame you. They usually are, frankly, but he wasn't.

Don't blame you. They usually are, frankly, but he wasn't.

He was interesting, especially when it comes to Creed. I always think about that because I'm kind of obsessed with the idea of like the whole Theseus and Minotaur just oh, yes, that's complete Athenian propaganda, which it like basically was, but I really like just want to understand it better as Athenian propaganda, because it's like, I'm sure the Manoans weren't going around and being like so, you know, every year we sacrificed all of these people to this monster we kept downstairs like.

He was interesting, especially when it comes to Creed. I always think about that because I'm kind of obsessed with the idea of like the whole Theseus and Minotaur just oh, yes, that's complete Athenian propaganda, which it like basically was, but I really like just want to understand it better as Athenian propaganda, because it's like, I'm sure the Manoans weren't going around and being like so, you know, every year we sacrificed all of these people to this monster we kept downstairs like.

Well, I mean, well, I mean you said that, but first, first of all, I'm sorry. I have to take gusure of the fact you called it a minotaura not a minotaur. I am, I know, I know, I'm sorry.

Well, I mean, well, I mean you said that, but first, first of all, I'm sorry. I have to take gusure of the fact you called it a minotaura not a minotaur. I am, I know, I know, I'm sorry.

However, however, okay, you brought it up, so now I have to make it.

However, however, okay, you brought it up, so now I have to make it.

Okay, here we go.

Okay, here we go.

I've had this argument with my friend who is also not British, but she lived there long enough that she says minotaur, and it drives me bonkers because the ancient Greek did not really have a horrid eye sound. So if one of them is going to be more accurate, it's.

I've had this argument with my friend who is also not British, but she lived there long enough that she says minotaur, and it drives me bonkers because the ancient Greek did not really have a horrid eye sound. So if one of them is going to be more accurate, it's.

Minotaur linguistics time. Okay, fine, I will, I will, I will can see defeat because I don't think anyone's listened to us ark you for fifteen minutes O for a freaking minor tour minotaur. But I had to say it because it's.

Minotaur linguistics time. Okay, fine, I will, I will, I will can see defeat because I don't think anyone's listened to us ark you for fifteen minutes O for a freaking minor tour minotaur. But I had to say it because it's.

One of my I was but very British to say minotaur.

One of my I was but very British to say minotaur.

Okay, I'm mood of that. No, you said again, the Cretans would not be kind of being like who lot loads of people who will come to crete lovely. The thing is, though on all their coinage well deeply into the Hellenistic period too as well. They have images of the labyrinth and on the colossal stones anyway, So they clearly were being like, yes, we we are the labyrinth, we are the minor tour.

Okay, I'm mood of that. No, you said again, the Cretans would not be kind of being like who lot loads of people who will come to crete lovely. The thing is, though on all their coinage well deeply into the Hellenistic period too as well. They have images of the labyrinth and on the colossal stones anyway, So they clearly were being like, yes, we we are the labyrinth, we are the minor tour.

Sorry, yeah, but I don't I think that they kind it is, it's really questionable. But I also think it's more so that it was like that was really indicative of their whole culture versus the theseus part of you know, or they were sacrificing, Like I don't think indeed they were necessarily necessarily talking about how evil the minotaur was. They were just like, we have this labyrinth and we're cool, and we've got balls everywhere, and you know, sometimes a half ball.

Sorry, yeah, but I don't I think that they kind it is, it's really questionable. But I also think it's more so that it was like that was really indicative of their whole culture versus the theseus part of you know, or they were sacrificing, Like I don't think indeed they were necessarily necessarily talking about how evil the minotaur was. They were just like, we have this labyrinth and we're cool, and we've got balls everywhere, and you know, sometimes a half ball.

Man, it's fineful man.

Man, it's fineful man.

Yeah, that's yeah.

Yeah, that's yeah.

You know. Actually just about actually I've got I got stuff I can say about Athens, this one about their propaganda with with the idea of like, you know, God's there's so much to say. Okay, very quickly, you're probably right about that, to be fair, that they focus they focus really just from the labyrinth as far as I can tell, You're right, they're not really focused much in the grizzly sacrifices of death, because that's yeah, it's not really I mean, you know, the Greeks where the kid fer mythed it really always practice the moral as we did, you know, because you know she's going around impregnanty and everything, much of that being rape. It's not something we would stand by. But the Greeks were like, whoo zou, this is great. So obviously things are a little bit different. But no, you're probably right about that. But I will, okay, should fox and creep. But I will say one quick thing about Theseus. I read a really interesting article by a turner. I cannot remember her first name, which is terrible, but she she wrote basically about how Theseus is both the son of a Gus, the king of Attica, and Poseidon, god at the sea. But the stories, like nick, they basically the thing is blurre it. You never really know who is actual dad is because that way they can they could be like, no, we have cliped Attica because we're descended from Theseus and the Geus. But no, no, no, we can also control the sea because they just they just let this exist or like oh yeah, blurry thing. And every time you've probably got someone and being like so, which one is it, they're like, oh.