Conversations: Not the Fun Kind of Myths, De-Mystifying Spartan Tradition w/ Owen Rees

Published Jan 27, 2023, 8:00 PM

Liv speaks with Owen Rees, a professor and founder of Bad Ancient, about ancient Sparta, that Mirage, and how Sparta is viewed today by some of the most dangerous groups around. Follow Owen and Bad Ancient on Twitter and find some fascinating Bad Ancient articles on Sparta here.

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CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.

Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions.

Hi, Hello, and welcome to another episode of Let's Talk About Myths Baby. As always, I am that woman who hosts the show and quite enjoys exploring the ancient world with all of you live, and today I am here with another conversation episode in my Sparta series, yet another fascinating episode where we look not only at what actually took place in ancient Sparta, but more importantly, what did not take place at all. I am joined today by Owen Reese, who runs the website Bad Ancient, a site dedicated to exploring common questions about the ancient world and looking at what is and is definitely not true about the ancient people and the rumors surrounding them. As you might imagine, Sparta comes up often. They have some incredible articles about misconceptions surrounding ancient Sparta and the things they did or rather didn't do. So we talk about just that. We talk about the idea that the Spartan's performed a very special type of eugenics, with elders examining newborn babies for imperfections which could get them tossed off of Mount Hietas, and how that never happened. We talk about modern misconceptions over things Leonidas said and how he said them, And we talked about a certain group of horrifying individuals who took their love of Sparta to a whole other level, the absolutely fucked up and wild way these misconceptions about Sparta connect with the misconceptions about Atlantis. See, the Nazis loved both of them and basically changed Spartan history to fit their narrative, a narrative which still then gets perpetuated today. Surprise, surprise. This conversation was absolutely fascinating, but I do have to warn you that unfortunately we had some really severe technical and connection issues, so you'll notice there isn't a lot of back and forth between us. It's kind of a quick wrap up at the end. That's because there was a leg to end all legs, and it made actually conversing very difficult. Fortunately, Owen was able to roll with the punches and and share so much information even without much of my prompting. It's also unfortunately short because of the same reasons. Frankly, I am just so thrilled though that we got these forty five minutes, because we had a great time and it was it's so important and interesting even if tech failed us pretty miserably. The upside though, is the audio still sounds pretty good. You probably won't notice. Besides, they're just being less talk between us. Editing right, this episode is seriously important when it comes to understand understanding Spartan history. So let's get right into the information that Owen had to share conversations, not the fun kind of myths demystifying Spartan tradition with Owen Brieese. Okay, Sparta has become this really interesting idea among the modern understanding from everything from I was looking at that Ancients website and seeing a post about was Sparta Communist? So I suppose it's it goes from everything to you know, uh, supposed the idea of a communist state, all the way to this idea of them being this like military powerhouse of Western civilization, and the way that that has been misused, you know, by the darkest sides of Western supremacy and white supremacy, all the way to just generally angry people wanting to utilize the idea of La Labbay come and take them for their guns and all these different things. So, uh, this whole reason I wanted to do this Sparta series is to kind of address that, and I figured kind of throw it all into this one sort of episode on on modern misconceptions and Sparta generally. Um, so yeah, what do you what do you most encounter? I guess on bad ancient in terms of Sparta, like what is the thing that you're sort of faced with a lot in terms of how people see this this ancient Greek place. Place is probably the wrong word, but that's where I am mentally, no, no, no, If they think that's a good think, that's a good enough places that. Um, I suppose you kind of hit the nail on the head first of all, which is that Sparta is everything to everyone. Um we we do. I think at the moment there's a real association with far right extremism and the Spartans, but they're just one group. Um. You know. The far left have claimed the Spartans, early waves of feminism have claimed the Spartans. Um, you know, even sort of running the mill politicians claim the Spartans. Everyone wants a piece of them, um, And I guess the reason why they can all have a piece of them is because the evidence is so bad. Um. And because the evidence is so bad, you can make them whatever you want them to be. UM. So I suppose in terms of the website, in terms of bad ancient the big questions we usually get are evil about them as a warrior society, which in itself is a misconception um. And so so many questions come from that starting point. So Sparta is a warrior society. So I'm going to ask you another question based on that, UM and in terms of like actual claims. So a lot of this focuses around Thermopoli. A lot of this focuses around their ability on the battlefield, but there's also a lot to do with their upbringing and um, they're kind of society as a whole. UM. So like our most um, our most visited page is the page which covers um the infanticide and whether or not the Spartans practiced a government sanctioned killing of babies as a form of earlier eugenics. UM. Yeah, that's probably the most popular popular strong word. It's probably the most prolific question and query we get. Is it true? Um? And I kind of kind of highlights the problem that you always face sing with Sparta because the reason why people think it's true is because our evidence says that it is true. Um, And it actually requires a deeper understanding of the evidence and deeper understanding of the job of the historian and the archaeology to kind of pick it apart. But ultimately, I don't think whilst, of course we're gonna we will obviously focus on the more extremist use of the Spartans, a lot of this doesn't come from any malice. It just comes from general reading of you know, you pick up a book on the Spartans, they're infanta side will come up. It will just come up as fact because writer called Plutarch said it happened. Um. And if you treat that uncritically, why wouldn't you believe that, you know? Um? So I think it's also kind of important from the beginning to kind of acknowledge that believe in these stories. Believing these myths isn't a judgment on you. I came into this area, I came into a Greek history. I was in love with the Spartans, I was obsessed with them. Um. I bought you know, I'm completely bought in to this warrior society. Um. You know, this warrior culture in Europe that you know, if I tried really really hard I could somehow emulate as a teenage boy. Um, you know, I brought into all that kind of construct of masculinity and everything, and that's what got me into it. And then as you learn the craft of historian, when you know, learn how to critically engage with the sources, you realize actually most of this kind of falls apart, but it is equally interesting. And I suppose that's part of the maturing process as well. I hope, Yeah, that's that's a fascinating way of coming at it for me. Like I my knowledge on Sparta for a long time was just like I had seen the movie three hundred, and I like to think that I didn't, you know, ever think that it was particularly accurate. Um, but it came out when I was like eighteen, and and so it was just like kind of that perfect point of Okay, well this is like you know, back then it was it was a good movie. It was exciting. And then of course, looking back, I'm like, oh, it's so racist, even on top of all of the Sparta of it all. Um, But at the time, you know, it was like it was so interesting and and sort of unique from what we had and and then of course looking at it now and and everything's so so fascinating, and I'm definitely gonna touch more on three hundred on a separate kind of episode on the on the show. Um, but that's a Plutarch is a source Obviously. That came up a lot in my conversation with Rule as well, because I mean I think he's he's both like our our most detailed source and are most like question mark source, right Like he comes, however, many hundreds of years later, and he's writing about things that you know, he he thinks are accurate in whatever way that he thinks of accuracy. Um. But then is also just like the nature of how many hundreds of year has come between the actual Spartan people and their customs and culture and Plutarch himself, Like you said, are our best kind of source or most detailed Probably not best in terms of you know, any kind of accuracy, but it's so fasting to have to kind of deal with with that issue, and that is, you know, one of those things that is most difficult to explain to people of like why it's not a great source. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean Plutarch, I mean, when we talk about Plutarch. There's there's kind of two sides to this conversation. One is these five years later. Yeah, so he's writing with five years later to the kind of Thermopoli slash Spartan hegemony. So when spartas and kind of top dog in Greece um, he's centuries and centuries and centuries later than that. Sparta has collapsed scabata by the time Plutarch is writing, it's kind of tongue in cheap, but Sparta has become a bit of a theme park. It is the Disneyland of Greece. It's somewhere you know, he's writing in the Roman period, although himself is Greek um and you know it Sparta's the place Romans go to have a look, and you know, there's kind of displays of supposed Spartan culture on for you to look at and to take part in. And it's it's just a fair ground, really showing the Romans what the Romans wanted or what other Greeks wanted Sparta to be, rather than what Sparta actually um. So that that's the one side, and that's kind of where Plutarch gets denigrated quite a lot. However, in his defense, Plutarch is a fastidious researcher um. You know, he was a he was a priest at Delphi, which is this kind of you know, the so called belly button of the navel of the ancient world is the place where you know, everyone is crossing parts, stories are being passed through the libraries and the books, and the knowledge that he had access to can't really be ignored, all right. And actually he's actually pretty good at telling us when he's using other sources. So he's not a historian, and I think that's a common misconception. He's not a historian, and I think sometimes we treat him like he is. He is often a biographer. That's more. What we're dealing with with is a is an essayist, and he's a biographer. Biography is not the same as history. Biography is usually for a purpose um, and Plutarch is often very open about his purpose about judging the morality and their behavior and the you know, the kind of um the decision making of in particular great men. He is obsessed with great men, and he does that through his famous Parallel lives, where he takes a famous Greek and a famous Roman and basically compares them. He compares their lives side by side, UM. And of course he then morphs their stories so that we look a little bit similar, UM, and he picks things that are alike and then kind of embellishes it so they run parallel. You know, Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar, you know, people like this, UM. And then he writes a mini essay at the end basically saying who's the best, UM and why and how their lives compared. So really interesting, But it's not history, you know. This is not Herodotous at his best. This is not through sydises, this is not polybious UM. For all their faults, they are historians. They're trying to answer a question about what happened in the past and why it happened and how it's affected the present. UM. Plutarch is not really trying to do that. He's just trying to tell stories and trying to learn things from these life stories. UM. So that's the kind of other side of Plutarch. He is a fastidious researcher and he is quite obsessive, UM, but not a historian. So yeah, Plutarch is our main, sort of our most detailed source because he goes through this biographical detail, so as a result, he really tries to fill out his stories to take you through someone's life. The contrast to this is, I would argue our most reliable source, who is the fourth century Greek writer Xenophon. So Xenophon who is a an Athenian by birth, an elite, rich Athenian who ends up leaving Athens in kind of exile, but spends a lot of time with the Spartans. He befriends the Spartan king called As he actually serves in the Spartan army, or at least he's in the entourage of a Spartan army. There's even he's given a house by the Spartans to live on Spartan kind of controlled land, not in Sparta itself, but in the kind of wider region. There's even a rumor that his sons went through the Spartan educational process the famous age, although I should say Xenophon doesn't tell us that, so if he did do it, if they did do it, Zeno one did not admit it um. So he's probably our best source, but it's just not quite as detailed in the same way, and comes with its own biases. You know, um, he is a good friend of a gas Laos, so much of his history of the Spartans has a gas Laos doing amazing things rather unsurprisingly. Um so, yeah, our sources are suspect. Those are two largest and immediately come with problems. That's why in academic terms, in historical terms, what we talk about with the Spartans is what's called the Spartan mirage. So the Spartan mirage is this idea that we have so much evidence that talks about the Spartans that it creates this image of what Sparta was, and we can see it. We can see it so clearly. And then you start to realize that all our sources are either hundreds of years later or every single one of them is not Spartan. So everything we're reading is through the eyes of someone who is not Spartan. So what we're seeing is what Xenophon wants to show us of Sparta. What we're seeing is what Aristotle wants to tell us about Sparta, what Plato wants to tell us. What you know, even like Aristophanes and you know, the comedy writers and the tragedy writers and all this, they're showing us a presentation of Sparta that they want, or specifically what their audiences want. That's what we're looking at. That's the mirage and sort of our job. And you've got lots of people joining your podcast, I know who are a much better place to talk you through that than myself. But what historians job is to try and see where the mirage falls apart and actually what's the reality, what is actually going on in Sparta and what can we do with the evidence that stands to kind of make sense of it all. Yeah, it's it's funny. That's a term I hadn't even really heard before. Um, just like a couple of days ago, and now it's like, okay, it's gonna I think it's gonna take over kind of my life if during this series is like breaking through that that Spartan mirage. Um. Now to to pull it back to one thing that you said earlier on on that for when it comes to you know, the questions you get asked on bad Ancient I realized when you're talking about that, the the idea of you know, Spartans, the question of whether they practiced this like very early and troubling form of eugenics. That's actually what spawned my idea to to create this this series on Sparta's there was all that talk or there was those articles written by Debbie Sneed a few or number of months ago. Now it's been a while. Um, but all about that idea of of whether or not they did, you know, dispose of babies that weren't perfect. And I think the short answer is they didn't write that. That wasn't really a practice of theirs. Is that accurate? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's absolutely right. So, I mean, the the expert on this at the moment is Debbie's Need. So yeah. So it's it's one of those where again, our evidence tells us that they do, but that evidence is plutarch. So yeah. So all right, there's two there's two elements to this. One is whether or not the ancient world practiced um exposure of babies, um you know this uh imperfect babies or babies that are not wanted by the family. This is often closely associated with disability and the presence of disability, but it's not only associated with disabilities, also associated with possible economic strain on the family, So you know, can you afford another child? Things like that, I mean, the most common place we see this, as you well know, is myth m hm um and actually historically we don't see a lot of examples of this, but it's everywhere in myth UM. So that's the first thing, and that's what Debbie sneeds article on this has done brilliantly. I know she's also written on UM you know, free to access articles as well, so they're definitely worth having a look if you want to look into the ins and outs of all that question. It is fascinating. The Spartan angle is not only that they threw away babies allegedly that they didn't want. Um. It was specifically that baby these were judged and then the decision was made as to whether or not they were imperfect, the association here being specifically disability, disability and a generic term for weakness m okay. Then the second point here is that this is not done by the family. Now, this is what makes Sparta strange in this For in this sort of story and this claim um, it's the idea that the Spartan state made this decision. Now this builds into a wider image of Sparta as an authoritarian regime, and it's the idea that the state controls everything um. So you know, the baby is born. The baby is then sort of um. Actually, according to evidence, the baby goes through a test of its own with the mother. We're told that the mother bathed it in wine. And then if the child has an epileptic seizure of some sort um, then they make the decision to expose the child. Um. It is then passed to representative and elder of the state, and then the state judges it again. And it's the idea of you know, does it cry things like that, as well as a physical examination. And then the story goes that if they're found to have failed, they are thrown off amountain into a pit. That's what Plutarch tells us. Not a single contemporary source of Sparta tells us this story. Xenophon doesn't tell us this story. Aristotle doesn't tell us this story. Plato doesn't tell us this story. Thucydides does not tell us this story. Now, in particular, what's interesting there is that Plato and Aristotle don't throu Sydides he may just not know. Xenophon he may just not want to tell us because he likes Sparta. Plato and Aristotle are the interest doing absences because both of them right basically utopian societies. They invent utopian societies, and in those utopian societies they mentioned eugenics. They mentioned this process as an idea, and at no point do they say anything about the Spartans doing it, which is a little unusual and a little unexpected. So if we were going to find it anywhere, I would expect to find it. Glutarch Aristotle, we don't, okay. So there's that's that. That's the problem with the written evidence. Another problem. We have found the pit. So there is a pit at the bottom of mat To Gators, the main mountain air just outside of Sparta, and we have found the pit that they throw bodies into. According to the archaeological surveys of that pit, there are I think there's like dozens, if not hundreds of bodies, in fact, lots of bodies, and the found not a single one has been identified under the age of eighteen mhm. So this creates the impression that this might be where they may well have you know, dine executions. This might be the place where they you know, through bodies or through people to their deaths, who were you know, I don't know, prisoners of war, criminals, etcetera, etcetera, you know whatever you want to think. We found the pit, we found where it happens. There is no child remains there, not one. So the literary evidence is suspect, and the archaeological archaeological evidence as it stands, completely refutes it. And this is where we then bring in the likes of the works of Debbie Sneed, who actually goes well, actually, the entire idea that this is happening in Greece at all is exaggerated. So whilst we're trying to find Sparta as being this kind of unique place that does it under state control, our starting point is incorrect. These things are unlikely to be occurring. Now, that doesn't mean it never happens. Okay, it doesn't mean this never happens. There will be instances where families make these decisions. There may well have been instances where Spartan families made these decisions. But what we've got to get away from is this idea that it was regular, it was a common occurrence. And the other thing for Sparta is we need to get rid of the idea that it's institutional, because any of the evidence we do have kind of suggests that's not the case. Mm hmm, that's yeah. That it's so interesting to hear the full evidence on like exactly you know, how how we know that this wasn't a practice. And of course it makes sense, you know, it certainly could be happening here and there, but the idea that it was a cultural practice is obviously the biggest, the biggest issue, and it it it is so sort of extra fascinating to look at it in the context of myth because it really is such a long standing bit in in mythology, this idea of exposure. But at the same time, like in the myths, it's always used as a way to to like strengthen the character, make them kind of come back with the vengeance have, you know, them be raised by bears and thus be incredibly strong and like a powerful warrior. So so it is sort of like an added thing to suggest that that it was anything that happened in reality, because obviously that wouldn't wouldn't happen the same way, And it is more just like a death sentence versus like a a sort of strengthening experience for for the child. Um, yeah, it's something I hadn't really heard about myself separately, like this idea of them except for in three D, which of course is all based on the dark and all of that. So it's it's interesting to hear it be as like an idea about Sparta, but then also be so easily or not so easily, because I know a lot of work went into that, but so so obviously now, um, you know, untrue. Yeah, well, the I mean, like, the the easiest way to dismiss this myth the story, um is we know of disabled Spartans, all right. So the most famous example is the person I mentioned earlier, the friend of Xenophon is As the Second, who was a king of Sparta. The Second of Sparta was born with some form of a typicality with one of his legs. The evidence is very vague. Greek terms for disabilities are annoyingly lacking in specifics, so the only way you can really translate the word that's regularly used to describe him is the word name. So basically, he has a mobility issue when he walks. Okay. So, but what is clear from the evidence, or pretty clear from the evidence, is that he is born with this. So this is from birth, whether or not we're talking about something perhaps like a club foot, or maybe we're talking about you know, a real size difference between the two legs. We can't be sure, but we know it's clear. We know it's there. We know it's there from a very young ageum and his story has made all the more interesting because he's actually the second son of the Spartan king. Now in Sparta, all Sparta, it's that's the fully fledged citizens of Sparta. A very small number of people, I should point out, all Sparta It's have to go through the ago gay, have to go through this educational process. The only exception is the heir to the throne. Okay, So if you are going to be king of Sparta, you do not have to go through the ego game. If you are the son of the king and not the heir to the throne, you do have to go through the ego game. So Alaos had to go through the agoge as he was a younger son. Okay. So we have a disabled young Spartan boy going through the rigorous physical and mental torment that is the agoge. And with Aglaos himself, we're told that he not only went through it, he was considered the best in his year group, in his age group. So he excels in this process. Um. And actually, if you read the biography, Plutarch's biography to be fair um of Aglaos, you really get the torment and the problems he dealt with as a young Spartan. Um. You know, the bullying, the constant gibes that he's getting for not looking right, for not being right according to the Spartans. But he is allowed to go through the entire go ga, and he thrives as a Spartan in the agoge. So at the end he comes out top of his class. He's considered the best of them all. Um. So Againsilos is a classic, is probably the best example. And to give you an idea of how the Spartans internalize all their beliefs and internalize all their experiences, agains a Laos, when he becomes king has absolutely no sympathy for any man who has a disability. So any Spartan who is hurt in battle or is struggling to walk for whatever reason, Againsilos is ruthless in his handling of him. Um is very much like it's almost like this air of I can do it, you can do it. Why are you complaining, get on with it um, And that's the story of a gains a laos. Now, the reason why this myth is so persistent, and the reason why it's so famous as a myth of the Spartans is because of who particularly likes this story. So, as I mentioned, this is probably the earliest example we have of a claim of eugenics. So eugenics literally good birth um is the idea of almost a breeding program of people to get rid of what you consider the weaknesses in your race. People may see where I'm going with this um and to eliminate races or people or attributes you don't want in your bloodline. Of course, this was picked up most prominently by the Nazis, who took this to a whole new level. So Nazi writers, Nazis scholars, also Nazi politicians you know you're Himmlers, you Gebels and the like were obsessed with sparta Hitler himself was interested in sparta um, and this story is part of that, a part of the reason why it's the idea that the Dorians, which is the alleged line of the Spartans, was an Aryan race entirely invent it in nineteenth century Germany as a concept. But it's the idea that an arian race and that they attempted to produce a pure bloodline um of a warrior race. Yeah. So this is why the Nazis loved it. This is why the Nazis um and the scholars in Nazi Germany were really pushing the story, pushing this idea and using it as yet another way of validating what they were trying to do. This was of course done uncritically, and ultimately this is the this is the threads that we're now trying to unpick, you know, I mean, ultimately we're arguing over something because the Nazis really liked it, um. And you know we're still at this point of trying to go well, just because the Nazis liked it doesn't mean it's right. Actually, quite often it never means it's right. Um. So you know, we need to get rid of the we need to let go of these stories. Um. And just to kind of finish that point off, give you an idea of this. So the Nazis love the Spartans, they love themopoly the lovely honored asked the story of that. Um. You know, there's lots of famous stories about all that. The one person that doesn't come up a lot the Nazis talking about the Spartans is against a Laos, the second Um. And you've got to ask the question, is that because of his disability? Is that because you can't hide this story of him, he doesn't come up very much in Nazi writing, including school textbooks, history textbooks, things like that. I guess lay us not a popular Spartan. Mm hmm. That is very interesting. So as we kind of uh intonating and kind of gone over a couple of times, the biggest myth of the Spartans is this idea of a warrior society, and as a result, so many of the other myths are born from that um. And this is where you find yourself having to especially in like a project like Bad Ancient, where you know, we take questions from the public without judgment, without anything. You know, it's just people going, I've heard this, is it true? Oh I read this is actually true? Oh this is you know. I was always under the impressions the Spartans were like X and um, uh you know, do we do we have any evidence for that um? And so often you find yourself having to go, I have no idea where you got that from at all, So you have to go away and kind of find it and try and deconstruct the thought process that's got there. Like a really simple one is if you accept Sparta is a militant warrior society. If you believe that, it makes sense that they have a patron god, because Greek cities have patron gods. Athens as Athena, there's a patron god, so Sparta must have one who's the god of war Aries. So one common question we get is, you know, is Aries the patron god of Sparta or just the assumption that he is Um even though that's just not true. You know, the Cultivaries is very minor, if at all present in Sparta. You know, the main god or goddess on the acropolis of Sparta is Athena Um. There's a couple of things that need deconstructing there. The first one is the idea of a patron god doesn't really work like that in Greece. The other thing is Sparta is not a warrior society, so they don't have to have the god of war as a patron And thirdly, oddly enough, Areas maybe the god of war, but it wasn't entirely liked. Um. So you know, if you wanted to pray for victory and war, you didn't generally pay to aries. You pray to other gods and goddesses. So it's a different relationship with war, different relationship with gods and goddesses as a result. So that's kind of like a simple example of that. But like in the modern day, Um, you mentioned the phrase which is everywhere at the moment malone larbe, which is this small, tiny, two Greek word phrase which literally means come and come and take them, the reference being Leonardas at the battle and Themopoli responding to le Xerxes, the King of Persia's request to lay down your weapons, he says, laid down your weapons. Leonardas says, come and get them. As a story and as a moment in like you see it in the film three D, the two are very well, very dramatic, very cool. As a teenager when it came out, I love that scene. Okay, but you know there's a there's a couple of things that one is actually that's that event didn't happen. It didn't happen like that at all. Um. The only account we have of that event is Plutarch again and um he says the entire exchange is done through written letters. So while she might want to visualize Gerald Butler being very angry as xerxi is, what you should actually visualize is a very angry Gerald Butler scribbling on a piece of paper, you know, and trying to pass this message on. So that's the first thing. The story we have is five years old, older than the battle Herodotus doesn't tell us it. Every other account which mentions a conversation between the two kings doesn't have this phrase. It's only in Blue Duck. That's the first thing. The second thing is it's been used by a lot of groups who are advocates for, um, the rights to bear arms and own arms, you know, gun clubs, et cetera. Now I'm a britt side and get I don't wage into these conversations. Gun culture is not something we have here in Britain. I'm not going to get into that. Um. But the thing that is interesting is the idea that the Spartans would have agreed with the right to bear arms. If you think Sparta is a warrior society, if you think Sparta is an armed society. This makes perfect sense. You know, a soldiers, professional soldiers live in their daily lives, would be armed. Of course they'd be happy with that. That makes sense, um, And actually all of our evidence says that that's not true. The Spartans were not an armed society. They did not openly carry weapons. And actually, when you dig deeper, it makes perfect sense that they don't carry weapons. They don't carry weapons because they are outnumbered. They are outnumbered by their enslaved population, the so called hellots, who they are perpetually terrified, perpetually terrified that the hellots will revolt against them. Now it's hard to gauge just how outnumbered they were, but some estimates give you seven times as mainly Hellots as there are Spartans. It could be as many as ten ten times as many. By the the sort of turn of the fourth century, the number of Spartans is down to below a thousand people. The number of Hellots will be in the tens of thousands of people. So they're grossly outnumbered. Petrified of a slave revolt, you would not have weapons readily available. Think about that. Logically, you would not have weapons readily available for them to go and get for them to take from you. Um So, actually, this very idea of Sparta as an armed society, the idea that Sparta would agree with Molon Labber, they would agree with the idea that you should give us your you should be able to carry weapons, is not true. The other thing, it's oddly enough, the idea that Molon labby is this idea of defiance against your own state. So in the US, a lot of this at the moment is about this debate about whether or not the state is going to introduce some form of gun control, whether or not they should introduce gun control. You know, whatever side of the debate you are, I don't really care. What interests me is that the idea that you would defy the state, the idea that you would use the Spartans as a model to defy the state, is ludicrous because the Spartans gave up everything for their states. So anything that the the effors, the Garusia, that's their counsel, their assembly, is whatever the Spartan state and the two Kings told them to do, they would then go and do. That's generally it. If you defied the state, you would be exiled, if not killed. The very idea of modern larby, the very idea of the standard Thermopoly is about following orders. So there's a famous epitaph to the dead, you know, the idea, you know, tell the Spartans passer by, they're here according to their laws, we lie is the epitaph given to the Spartans who died at Thermopoly. So the idea that modan Larbe is now being used to defy government and defy the state just boggles the mind. No Spartan would agree with this, and this kind of gives the idea that you know, Sparta is the way Sparta's used in the modern day is not the reality of Sparta back then. This is not something that Spartans would have agreed with or in any way related to um and uh. This is the kind of ludicrous nature of of what's going on and how the Spartans are being used. A modern Labbay is perhaps the most prominent, but it's just one of several examples. It's always been so interesting to me to to sort of take in all of this. I mean, for one, I'm Canadian, so and and certainly where I am in Canada, it's a similar thing with the you know, gun control and everything is not not really an issue, um. But but my people in my country were using it um as a sort of anti lockdown um screed. But it was similarly the idea of like standing up to the state and some kind of you know, so called tyrannical government and using more labbay in that way, so sort of equally fascinating, just less to do with arms, it more to do with like human rights or whatever, you know, freedoms, all of that, um. But at the same time, like, I mean, the funniest thing that always stands out to me beyond the fact that all of this took place in letter writing, which is sort of in itself like so you know, anticlimactic and undramatic, but also just that like Persia did take them, but it's not a great example, like Persia took everything, and and so how has that become this idea of like standing up to the state and you know, adhering to your rights, like well they are gone Persia Persa snatched it all and sort of but yeah, you know, what what does that really mean when when Persia did take everything? And it's just that's all I wanted to say to people who use that that phrase. It's like, okay, well yeah they were taken. Yeah, yeah it is. It is one of those kind of ridiculous stories. I think Themopoly is often forgotten that it's a defeat. Now I say that anyone who knows Greek history will not forget that. Um. But in terms of like the general public, is just a battle that kind of it's just another battle that's named, it gets evoked every so often, doesn't mean a lot to most people, and so other than it's a famous battle and there's this stand um, and you do sometimes hear it referred to as a victory and you have to correct that. Go it's not. It's not a victory. They lost. A good example of this is the President of Ukraine, President of Ukraine z Lenski Um. When the latest invasion of Ukraine occurred, the analogy of Thermopoli and the analogy of the three hundred quickly came up, and Zelenski went on record very early saying, we don't want to be a legend like three D. We want to actually survive and win. Don't. Basically what you're saying is, don't make us a European martyr that fits your narrative. Um. His point being give us arms, you know, let us fight this battle and actually try and win. And what's even more interesting about that is, you know the fact that Ahead of State rejects the three hundred analogy is actually quite uncommon. But he rejects the three analogy. He doesn't want to be the heroic Spartans making this stand for freedom and everything else because they lose. What's more interesting is now go away. You can google it, look at on Twitter, any social media. You will find them. Go and have a look at how many people are still referring to the war in Ukraine and the Ukrainian people as being like Themopoly, being like the three hundred. Even when the head of State says, don't do it. That's not the story we're telling here, That's not the story we want this to be. So it's almost like our own mythological narrative of European history, of a very particular type of European history, has Themopoly in it. So we will always refer to it when we see something even closely relating to it occurring. So just because Zelinski says we don't want this analogy is not stopping people from using It's not stopping politicians from using it. It's not stopping reporters and journalists and using it. It's not even stopping historians from using it. The amount of ancient historians I've seen make this analogy is actually starting to drive me a bit up the wall, because one it's a poor analogy, which is just annoying in its own right, And two they've specifically rejected it, so I think we should kind of respect that and not use it. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, I remember seeing all of that too, and just it's so it's so interesting all of the connections to Thermopoli because it's like it was such a loss and that everything was taken and it you know, they may have ultimately one that or the Greek people, but they certainly didn't then or there, and and it's just sort of just continues on with all of this mythologizing and and skewing of the history and the Spartan people and and everything. Oh, it's just so fascinating and and so problematic and weird. And Um, to the listeners listening to this, if it sounds disjointed at all, we've unfortunately had like a very bad connection. Um. But I'm so grateful to Owen for for dealing with this and and still doing the absolute best to work through this conversation when we can unfortunately a barely hear each other. Um so, but this has been absolutely fascinating. So I'm really appreciative and thank you so much for doing this and for dealing with the technological difficulties but also just speaking to me and and recommending others to to speak with this for with me as well, for this Sparta series. It's it's very exciting. Thank you so much. No, that's thank you so much for having me on. Well, thank you for being so understanding. Uh, if this makes it in or else, I'll just add it in in afterwards. But is there anywhere that people can find you where you want to be followed or or the wonderful Bad Ancient project. Yeah? Yeah, so if you're followed, I mean I live half my life on Twitter. Usually find me there. Um but also yeah, the Bad Ancient website I've talked about is Bad Ancient dot com also has a Twitter feed and a Facebook page and the like. Um, so yeah, you find me there, come say hello. Always happy to chat about anything ancient nerds, Nerds Nerds as always, thank you so much for listening this conversation was so great, and I'm so grateful to Owen for joining me. I'm just sorry we had such trouble recording it and that it's so short as a result, but huge thanks to Owen for both coming on the show in general, but also for dealing with these frustrating tech issues super well, so kindly. Honestly, it was so great just being able to keep talking about these topics even when we weren't entirely sure the other one was even still there, but it worked, honestly, with how much trouble we had, I'm shocked it turned out so well, so I am thrilled, but also a huge thanks because Owen was the first person I reached out to about this Sparta series because of his website Bad Ancient, and he gave me the contact info and suggested I reach out to both Maria and Rule, who ended up being such absolutely brilliant guests on the show, and they provided such important history and insights. So yeah, just huge thanks for so many reasons. I am so proud of the Spartan series, not least because it's getting me to dive into history and I think it's working out pretty well at least for someone who spend their timetelling stories about a mythical world of nonsense. Uh. Next week we have more episodes. We were talking all things Sparta, both historically and now, looking specifically at the ways that it is misunderstood, both intentionally and unintentionally, and the history itself, the things that we think about Sparta that aren't remotely true, and how some of those things are actually super problematic, if not outright dangerous. And then I'm speaking with Stephen Hodgkinson, who is such a prolific expert on Sparta that he has honorary citizenship from modern Sparta. So yeah, I think you're gonna be pretty interested to hear what he has to say to you on all of those same topics. And don't forget, I will be doing a Spartan Q and a episode after the series is done, so please submit your questions at mis baby dot com slash questions. Obviously, I won't have explored everything that you guys want to know or answered all the outstanding questions you might have during this series itself, so this is your time to shine and my time to clarify and expand on things that you might want to know more about Let's Talk about Miss Baby is written and produced by me Live Albert MICHAELI. Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians. She handles so many podcasts related things, and for this series, MICHAELA gets an extra special shout out because while she always helps me with everything I ever need, in this case, she prepared an absolutely incredible amount of research for this series. I am talking everything I could ever need. What a life saver. Stephanie Foley works to transcribe the podcast for YouTube captions and accessibility. Help me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology and the ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron, where you'll get bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon dot com slash myths Baby, or click the link in this episode's description. Thank you all for listening and chiming in on social media. You are awesome. I am live and I just love this ship so damn much