Conversations: Giving Circe the Agency She Deserves, w/ Sophia Kouidou-Giles

Published Nov 17, 2023, 8:00 AM

Greek-American author Sophia Kouidou-Giles joins Liv to talk Circe, Skylla, Greece, and her new novel An Unexpected Ally. Help keep LTAMB going by subscribing to Liv's Patreon for bonus content!

CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.

Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions.

Hi, Hello there, and welcome to Let's talk about MIT's Baby. I am your host live who is slowly becoming a regular human once more. I think I think that Tuesday's episode will be possible, because I think so far my brain works again. But today I am here with another wonderful conversation episode that I recorded a while back. You can tell because I meant Seneca's Medea, So that's how long ago we recorded this. But I am so excited to finally be sharing it with you. I spoke with the author Sophia Coo We Do Giles, who has not only written a new book featuring none other than Circe and a fascinatingly fictionalized Skilla, but who is also herself Greek. Sophia will not be the last Greek person I talked to about writing Greek myth retellings. It's been an effort of mine whenever possible to get Greek people on the show who are writing this stuff, because I think that we need more of them bringing in their heritage to this saturated genre, and I'm so excited to see more of them. I also just spoke with somebody yesterday whose episode will be coming out in a little bit, so we're just really we're piling that up and I it is such a thrill. But Sophia was just so absolutely lovely to speak to. We just talked about about her book absolutely, but also just about the mythology surrounding the Odyssey and Circe and the Greek landscape and writing these kinds of stories and Greece itself. It was just an absolutely lovely conversation. So I am just generally so excited to share it all with you. Plus I have to tell you that a highlight is the lovely Sophia just proclaiming that Zeus is a sex maniac, so you do have that to look forward to.

It was a.

Joy conversations, giving Circe the agency she deserves an unexpected ally with Sophia, Ko we do.

Giles, you've written this novel, but I know you have a background, you know, in Greek everything, and you yourself are Greek, So why don't you tell me first a little bit about yourself and you know what you do as a writer everything like that.

Yeah, well, you know, I had a career in social services, but once I retired, that was the opportunity to fall back into what I used to love to do, and we are talking back grade school and high school in those years, you know. But what happened is I came to the United States right after high school and had to cope with adjusting, you know, studying, getting the vocabulary, getting into a profession, finishing a career before I really relax and fall back into reading and writing. That is the story of an immigrant really fall in love back to my own heritage. That was the unique thing and the pleasure I get out of writing and dealing with myths.

Yeah, that's so wonderful. I mean, it's an interesting thing in my position because I don't you know, like you said, mythology is a huge genre right now, and there are so many retellings coming out all the time, but it's very rare that those retellings are actually written by someone with Greek heritage, you know, let alone an immigrant from Greece, and so it's so exciting to have that. There's a few more now though, you're the first of what I think will be a few Greek authors on my show talking about the retellings, which is very exciting. Ex Yeah, so you just kind of fell back into mythology. So you know, your book an unexpected ally. It's about Circe right and Skilla. But I would love to hear, like, what what did you read that then made you go, oh, I want to write this novel about these two.

Well, you know, I was reading Homer, and it was Homer that, you know, introduces the idea of Skiller. We say Skiller in Greek, not Sila.

Oh, I say Skilla. No, yeah, I know where the I mean. I'm not great at Greek, I will say, but I definitely know there's no silent K or C in there.

You've got it, yes, yes, So when I was reading that, I thought I could do a story that starts at the end of this relationship with Odyssius. And that's what got me inspired, if you will, you know, endings, endings of relationships and beginnings of relationships. And it ended up being sort of the thing in some ways. So then I thought, well, what was it about this relationship that ended? Because she's a powerful witch sorceress, she couldn't kept him there, you know, if she wanted a little more potion, some other magic and so forth. And I thought, you know, in our lives as adults, we experience sendings of all sorts, and that is a thing that I can elaborate by starting my story there. So that was the beginning.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, I love the Odyssey. It's my favorite, you know, ancient Greek epic let alone, probably my favorite ancient Greek text period, though I do love Euripides. But the you know, the Odyssey is so amazing, and you're right about Circe. It's so interesting. And I should say I'm sorry, I don't Krek. I probably should, but everyone knows her as Circe in English, but I do know that in Greek it's Krek. Yeah, so you feel free to pronounce it however you you know you want. And I like to tell my listeners that it is Krek, but it just, you know, anyway, it's interesting, like you say, she could have kept him there, because it's such a good an example that Calypso kept him when she wanted to and Circe didn't, And that's really an interesting thing about their story, specifically in comparison to Calypso.

So you know, that is the cool thing about working with miss is we can give it a complexity that was not presented or intended. I mean, Homer was not writing about women heroines. He was writing about war, about heroes, about deeds and that sort of thing. So she did play a role in his story, but it was a secondary role. So I was thinking, well, this is a woman that I want to have a lot more agency. I wanted her to realize that Odysseus is already traveling back home. His heart is not hers anymore, so the heck with him. That's how the story starts, you know, all right, let's see him off, you know, and do a number of things as a farewell sort of gestures. And after that, I'm on to the next thing. And I'm not going to give you a lot of things.

No, we don't want to spoil it. But I am so interested in how you wanted to handle Skill as a character, because of course in the Odyssey we really just hear about her as this you know, monster who's going to cause all this trouble for Odysseus and his ship. But then we have this background for her, which you know, as far as I know, is found almost only in of it's metamorphoses. I think, right this idea that she you know, was kind of cursed or she you know, started out as a name for a human I'm we're going to forget which but but that she was transformed into the monster that she became. So how did you want to handle that? And you know what, what kind of sources were you reading? Did you read a lot of OVID any of that?

Uh? Yeah, I've read of it and I used of it again in my next book. But here I took a lot of liberties. I did not stick to the original you know, buthors and sources. I wanted her to be a young, innocent girl, and I decided she was going to live in these Greek island that was known for all the temples. It was the birthplace of Apollo. And she was a young woman whose mother had passed on and she was just living her life. But she meets Circe and things happen there. So we have a relationship that establishes between the two women, a friendly kind of relationship. So seriously, now it takes an interest in following what happens to this young girl as the story goes on. And I'm gonna go dot dot dot again. So you see the setting of the meeting is very different. It's an innocent, youthful young lady that happens to come across a goddess, a powerful goddes.

Yeah, that's very exciting. I mean my show is really, as much as possible, it's about talking about women in Greek myth because they didn't get enough attention back in the day. Yes, yeah, so you know, I just love all of all of the women characters of Greek myth, but Circe is one of my favorites by far. But you know, you mentioned this island, so she's on Delos, right, How did you want to write Delos like? I've been there a couple of times. It's amazing, but I can only imagine what it would have looked like in the ancient world.

This was sheer imagination on my part. I have not traveled to Dealers, although I go back to Greece, but it is a place I'm gonna go to one way or another. So I investigated it really through photography, through words from friends that had gone and visited, and I created a map, you know in my mind where I could see the fort. I could see that people would climb up to the tropilia and then move into the temples. I could see the Temple of Apollo, you know, I could see the priests. I could see the lineup of merchants that were selling goods for the temples, for the sacrifices. So that was just part of the pleasure of putting things together, you know, and navigating my people, my protagonists, and all the rest of them up and down the island.

Yeah, that's wonderful. I mean, Dayle's is an amazing island, but yeah, imagining it in the ancient world, there's just so much there because it was so sacred. So it's really interesting that you wanted to use an island that is so devoted to the gods, but have it be just like a place that a young woman is growing up, Like did you want to kind of use that as a real Like I don't even know what I want to ask, but you know, how did you want her life to be involved with all of the you know, the divine nature of Delos, the way that it's so much more connected to the gods than any other island.

Yeah, it was a girl that lived in a village. She was not in the capital also to speak, but the lineage is what leads us to the temples. She had a relative, she had that kind of a connection and at the end of the story, you will see that she has a future in the temples. So what a better islands than you know, Dealers.

Yeah, yeah, oh, it's that's wonderful. It's I go to Greece probably too often for my finances, but it's just the most amazing place. And Dalo's is certainly high up there.

Yeah yeah, yeah, I personally was born in the Saloniki. I don't know if you've been up there.

I haven't yet. Unfortunately, it's on my list.

Yes, yeah you should. Yeah, there's a lot of atmosphere more you know, the Roman and the Byzantine evidence in that city, but definitely a sense of history. The location is prime. So I'm proud to be from Salonica. But I love traveling to the islands when I can.

Yes, I mean that's a problem. That's why I haven't gone up north very much because every time I go, I just want to go back to the islands. Naxos is my favorite. It's just so beautiful. So when it comes to Circe, she's such an interesting character because you know, she is this witch in the Odyssey, but we don't we don't really get like a ton of information about how she uses her witchcraft. Obviously, she transforms Odysseus's men into pigs and then back again. And you know, but but we don't get like main you know, kind of descriptions of her magic. How how did you like did you want to make her super magical? Is she like a big witch goddess in your book? Or is she more of that goddess side of her? She just is so complex, you could do so many things.

Yeah. No, I gave her a lot of powers in this Good There was even shape shifting, you know, so there is a little bit of the magic and the exaggerated power. But I think I tried to keep her very human spirit in the way she connects and cares and investigates things. And you know, she pays attention to what the twelve Olympians are doing, but they are sort of up on the clouds there, and she doesn't always agree with them. She has agency, She really has agency.

Yeah, I mean good if I would think, you know, Circe would not normally agree with the Olympians. They're usually making four decisions. So did you include other gods in the story or did you kind of want to keep the rest of them separate?

No? No, they get they mingled. They quo strugable. They have opinions. Yes, definitely, definitely.

That's one thing that I often find I think is for me is lacking in a lot of the retellings lately, is they really focus on that more human aspect, which is perfect and interesting, you know. But I love what what I love about Greek mythology over other mythologies that I've encountered is the way that the gods are really human in really interesting ways, and the way they like, you know, screw things up, and the way they make all these mistakes and they make everything kind of messy. It's so much more interesting than when a god is just kind of like off in the ether, you know, sort of unseen. Like I'd much rather have what it sounds like you're doing, which is like having them involved, because in the myths themselves they're so involved.

Yes, yes, well, the thing the advantage of writing, you know, and using mythology is that you get a fundamental test of that character. You know, Zeus is known for his thunderbolts, right, what a tradity for her erotic quite prowess, you know, Arish for being out for war and trouble, you know, so you have a beginning place, but after that you can go to town and create all sorts of things, you know, And I think you're gonna like my second book, which is not published yet, it's yet now think twenty five where the guys and their point of view becomes very important.

That's very eying. Yeah, could you say what that is what the book is about? Do you have a specific characters you're talking about?

Yes, yes, I have a prime character there too, and that happens to be Sirs's mother. There is a linkage from one book to the next. Yes, And you know, again Percy is not a character that we know a lot about. That was permission for me to create a mother daughter thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, her mother is you know, she's barely ever talked about in any sources. That's very exciting. Yeah, I yeah, I have a real love for that family because I also find Medea to be one of the most interesting of all Greek mythological women for so many reasons. I'm actually I'm currently reading. I rarely ever look into Roman literature because I just don't care about Rome all that much, but I'm currently reading Seneca's Medeia, which is kind of selling me on maybe the Roman weren't all bad. So I just love to hear more about kind of how how you went about, you know, writing these characters and the story, Like, are there, you know, moments from myth that you wanted to keep in or did you want to kind of mostly make it your own story using these mythological characters.

It's a hard one to answer. You know, my process of writing is messy me too. It's not like I start with chapter one and no exactly what's going to happen, you know, So it's a hard one to answer. I do go back and read the myth again so that I can maintain, you know, some association, some semblance of sticking to the myth, But I'm not religious about it. I care more about developing interesting relationships and dynamics in the story. In my career, I worked in psychology and social services and that sort of thing. And I just think we're a contemporary reader to be interested in this, it has to resonate. So that's my permission to go wild.

Yeah, well, I think too, you picked characters that are perfect for that, because, like you said, I mean, Circe really only appears in the Odyssey in terms of Greek sources, and Skilla, as you know, as a non monstrous form, doesn't really appear in Greek sources at all, and so you have, Yeah, you have so much permission to kind of to do what you want with it, and it just yeah, it makes it much more interesting. I mean it's I also love the characters where you know, you get this little piece of them and then you can kind of expand and make them into your own without not that there's anything wrong with, you know, making changes to a myth that does have a more substantial character and history than someone like Circe. But it is so much more interesting to have this very open ended kind of character like she is.

Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing is, you know, myths they have versions. To me, seeing all the variations gives me permission to create my own. I may be preceptuous, but that's what I do.

I think that's right. I mean, that's the thing that's what makes them so interesting too, is all the versions. It's something that I talk about a lot, is you know the way that there is no right or wrong version. There's only you know, this one came at this time, and this one came at that time, and it's much more interesting to look at them, you know, for what they are in their individual forms, and maybe look at why these things changed, you know, when they did. Like Avid Circe is really interesting. You can't, you know, comfortably say that it's that she's a particularly Greek character because he makes all of these changes. But of course he's working off of the Greek. He's working off of the Circe and Homer, and he's doing basically what you did, you know, but he's Avid, and so so often I think people come at it and they they think, because Avid's is really detailed, that it must be you know, the right or wrong version, And of course no, you know, and it's just it's another version and it's interesting in itself, but it, you know, it's just kind of another take on the miss.

Yeah, and it probably reflects the issues of the time, you know, what was first reading of at the time he was writing it. He did it like we do exact mm hmm.

Well, And I often wonder too, you know, and I wonder if this is something you think about, is I wonder about all the things we don't have, you know, all the sources that don't survive, and what they might have said. I think about that a lot when it comes to Avid, because he makes all these you know, he puts all these storylines into metamorphoses that seem like they could be complete departures from the myths that we have. But it's very possible that a lot of the things that he writes are based in other sources that we don't have access to today, and that is just so much more interesting to think about.

How did he get from wherever to ease time? Yeah?

Exactly did he make it up? Or did he read something that we'll never know existed? That's so much more interesting, right, Yeah, did you consult a lot of sources beyond Homer and of it for this? I'm just curious kind of what you read and if you loved any of them, you know, even if they didn't make it into the book.

Yeah. For my second book I read, I was surprised to find that Xenophon and a lot of information about horses, how you choose a horse, how you train a horse, what do you do with a horse, and anyway. I used a lot of that in my second book. It's more current in my mind. So I'm sorry I'm skipping to examples that don't relate to seriously, but uh, yeah, I read Apollonius.

Of it.

What else did I read? The tragedies? You know, there's so much rich stuff. I wish, I wish when I had come to the point of choosing what to study, I would have studied classics. But it's something I'm rediscovering now and it's sweet. It's sweet, mind you to start writing. I took classes, right, and all my assignments I had to do in English, right, m hm, So I have collected a bunch of English. I don't work with original texts, which is a shame, but I'm kind of cut off from the ability to study and learn ancient Greek again.

And no, I yeah, I was going to ask that as well. Actually, what you know, what language you're you're often reading these sources in, because I mean, it's something I face. I'm just very Canadian and so I only know English, so I'm trying to learn modern Greek very badly. But but yeah, I'm the same. Yeah, I love it, but I need to get better at it. But the you know, coming at them in translation is so interesting. And what I've found because I've read, you know, I try to read them in multiple translations, so that I get, you know, a little bit more out of the story because I also never got the chance to learn ancient Greek, and so you know, there are so many ways though that you can you know, kind of work around something like that. And yeah, it's it's you know, it's it's fine in itself to read the English and then you can just kind of play around with what you're reading or you know, which translations you're reading. So which immediately makes me want to ask, do you have a favorite translation of Homer or the one that you've been using? Oh yeah, okay, yeah, nice and classic.

And you know, because I quote a little bit, I had to go back to Butler, I think too, because I don't have to get permission.

Essentially, Yeah, I actually I read I read the entire Odyssey translated by Butler for the podcast for that exact same reason, because I could because there's no copyright and I wanted to exactly. Yeah, that's always interesting, as you know, navigating those things as well. I do that all the time on my show. You know, I'll quote little bits here and there on a podcast because you're allowed on podcasts in a way that you're not in books. It's odd, but but then whenever I want to quote something much longer, I find a public domain translation and it's very old, but it's worth it because you still can quote a lot and it's nice.

That's it. And you also, you know, in comparing different ones, you see how much interpretation is part of translation. It's amazing. I need to tell you circ is going to show up in Greek. I've translated it. I've just not chased anybody over there, a publisher in other words, but I am fluent in modern Greek. Yeah, the ancient Greek that is like Chaucer here or whatever.

Yeah, that's such a good example comparing it to Chaucer or even like old English. You know, though I know, I mean, ancient Greek at least shares some words with modern Greek, but then some are so different that you just kind of get lost entirely. Yes, I'm just because I don't know any of them. I just am obsessed with what little I do know and the etymology between them. And then when I can find that link to English too, and I annoy my friends and family with it quite often, but it's very fun.

Well, why Sam and grandkids are trying to learn Greek, so we fall to atymology frequently, because if you know the basic cruit and the twenty seven prepositions, you already have increased your vocabulary.

You know, absolutely, I mean, and it's so interesting the way they do. You know, the certain words in modern Greek that are the same or similar and ancient, and then you can see where the English. Often it's you know, scientific words in English, and you can see where where they got that root from, or you know. I was with my friend the other day and I was explaining to her. She didn't ask. I don't know if she likes it, but I do it anyway. But I was explaining to her what the modern Greek words for man and woman are and how they relate to like anthropology and gynecology, and like just being a nerd. It's very fun.

Yes, yeah, sometimes I do that to the doctors. They think they know it all. Well, I got something on you, that's great.

I mean, I'm also just I'm excited to talk to a Greek person. I really love the language so much, and I don't have enough access to it.

But I think you're brave exactly. It's such a complicated language. Sometimes, you know, I cannot analyze why the sentence needs to go that way, and it's not because of idioms. It's just complex.

Yeah, it is. I will say that I'm very good at like individual words and very simple sentences, but as soon as someone speaks back to me, that's when that's when all all my knowledge of Greek leaves my head. It's not very helpful, but I'm hoping to take a lesson when I'm next in Athens. I'm gonna really try going to get in. But so, you know, is there anything that really stood out to you writing this as someone who is Greek and has this as your heritage and you know, modern Greek being your language, did anything stand out for you that you really wanted, you know, to make that into the book, or you felt really stood out because of your heritage, you know, not to.

Be grandee, but what a better place than taking my heritage and offering it to readers here? You know, it's it's a privileged place. And I have a feeling for all these stories. I get into them. I mean, when my son was growing up, this may sound strange, but we talked about the ancient Greek pantheon, you know, and he was praying to Zoos. Does that sound.

Odd A lot of people still do that. There's the pagan yeah, and it was not because of that.

It's because we read myths, you know, bedtime and ah made up stories and the same thing with my grandsons. And in fact, they were a big part of my choosing to write about mythology because they read, we talk, they tell me the latest, you know. And there's a lot of y eight people that do author books for that for these age groups. So it's all around me. How can I help it?

Yeah, Well, like I said earlier too, I think it's so great that we are getting more actual Greek voices, you know, writing these retellings, because you know, it's all well and good. How many are written by Americans and British people, And I hope there's a Canadian in there now and then, but we're we're kind of quiet up here. But you know, it's very often that these books are not written by people with Greek heritage. And I mean there's a lot to be said about the way that modern Greece has often been separated from ancient Greece in the Western world, and it's something I like to draw attention to on the show because I think it's incredibly unfair, and but it's very common, and so it's an odd history I'm sure to have as your culture because unlike most others, I would say, you know, Greek has become this thing that is seen as kind of, you know, the origin of all of quote unquote Western civilization, and it gets kind of taken away from the Greek people, whose history it actually is. You know.

Yeah, no, we do. This is my way of claiming it. Yeah, this is my way of it.

It's good and I'm seeing more and more.

You know.

I heard from you via your publicist, and I was excited to talk to you. But then very shortly after I heard of at least another two ones a novel and then one was a short story. And I'm going to try to maybe put their names into the podcast later because I don't remember them right now. But two more Greek people, Greek women who are who are writing retellings, and again in English, because I think I think, of course there's a huge place probably in modern Greek as well, but it's nice to have Greek voices amongst the English because I think it's a good reminder to people reading in English that you know, like Greek people can write about this stuff too and should yes.

Yes, And it's a pleasure in my author group, you know when when we are sharing pieces that we've written, you know, I get to tell them, oh, celix, do you know what that means? Little insights, pepplers, you know, clothing women, you know, porpie or whatever.

Yeah, it's so fun to do that. I do that. Yeah, as I said often earlier, but I think a lot about my big fat Greek wedding if you watch that and the grandfather who explains how everything is from Greek, and I realized how much I do that, and then I just embraced it recently of like, I'm not even Greek, but I'm going to tell you about how all of these words, you know, come back to the Greek.

Even mono.

Yes, that was the one my friend references again. No, no, okay, that one's a joke. I get it. So I mean it's yeah, we don't want to give away spoilers, so I don't want you to, you know, have to dive in too deep about what the story is. But is there anything you want to share about the characters and kind of you know, how you wanted to write them, things that might appeal to my audience or that you just want to share.

Let's see, I want them to have both positive, powerful, good attributes, but I also want them to have faults. And if you look at the subtitle of the book, you know, and unexpected all I. But then it's about love read then and redemption. So that points out what emotions I'm trying to present and how people deal with those emotions. You kind of can sort the first word love because very seriously about to lose her love, right, so it's going to deal with that, you know, the aspect of laws, the aspect of yearning for another relationship and that sort of thing. And then you get the same sort of thing from the Innocence the younger, you know, the Skila, who is you know, just going swimming and having boyfriends, maybe choosing being charming, all of those things, and then love. Of course, he is also a Greek character and not a very well known one, and he has a magical story of from fishermen becoming a god. And then you know he has to live in because he's protected by Poseidon. He's a sea creature, so you have the land and the sea and the environment gets highlighted quite a bit in this, you know, the natural settings, and there is other little myths, little stories that crop up, for example, the centaurs, Dionysius and you know, his little host of characters and parties and all that. So it's all Greek, its elements that to get Wolven in there, I'm not sure what else to say that I'm giving you more the plot.

No, that's great. I meant to ask about Glaucus earlier because he is a very interesting character, like you said, and he does. Yeah, he you know, very similar to Skilla aside from her monstrous form. It's minimal, you know, details that we get on him, but what we get is really interesting. So yeah, it's nice to be able to expand upon that and also write a story where the sea is important because of course, you know, the sea in Greece is incredibly important and very relevant everywhere.

So yeah, well, I'm excited to hear the Dionysus is in it, because I do love him very much.

I bet that was fun. Do you were there other gods or or you know, including him that you found particularly fun to write about?

What Sideon is in there in both books? Oh gosh, I have Apollo meddling a little bit.

You know, he would.

Series his mother shows up because that's that's a way of elaborating mother daughter stuff, which will leave the reader interested in the next book that is all her store Percy story. Ah.

There is a.

Couple of just playing made up humans. Melisse is a character that is a servant of Ceriuses and a very trusted servant, so it's it's a positive, you know, relationship between the god and the human. There is a fellow again made up who lives in Delus and he's a fisherman and his name will give you a positive vibe because it's Ariston. So even the names you know that I choose, like Melis, it reminds you of Melissa, it reminds you of honey. So it's that kind of person or not. And I play with words like we all do when we write. It's very Those are some of the extras, you know, that show up to support the main task.

Yeah. I just love hearing about all the gods, which is why I asked. I'm always interested in how I'm interested in how people write about the gods, you know, from this fictional perspective, because they're all so complex and open to interpretation. So you know, like I have kind of running jokes on the podcast about you know, who the the most dangerous gods are, you know, when it mostly when it comes to women, because that's usually why they're dangerous, but even still, you know, like it's it's so interesting to hear how other people see these gods because they're they're completely open to interpretation. You can see them in so many different ways. And I come at it from, you know, my very specific perspective. And I say that because I like to point out that in terms of the actions within mythology, by and large, Poseidon is one of the most dangerous gods when it comes to being a woman.

Yes, yes, Poseidon a brother to Zeus. Zeus, you know who's a sex maniac.

Yes, I mean he's the obvious one, but Poseidon there's something about what he does. It seems even more dangerous than Zeus, but Zous certainly has. It's got a lot going on. It's just so fun to talk about them because yes, yes, there's.

Just again in the second book, you know, there's scenes where gods are debating what to do or what's going on in the earth, and there's Zeus and there's Poseidon that takes a different act and there's a little battle going on between them and stuff, and it's exciting you see.

Yeah, well, since you mentioned the other book again, because I'm so fascinated, that must be really interesting, because you know, in order to write about Percy's you have to write about a Titan, right, like so beyond the gods, but also not quite as powerful because of the war. And you know, did you I don't even know what a question. I just am interested in writing about Titans, but like, what did you want to do with that?

You know, I do have Titans in the in the second book, and I don't I'm not clean about not mixing the grooves. Yeah, but the the Titans are the generation that is gone, and Zeus and company are the ones that are maybe a little more enlightened, but there are still things to do. So I kind of classify them by the role I assigned to them. So, for example, yeah, shows that in the second book, Sibele shows that it's such fun. We have such a rich playground of gods and goddess.

Oh exactly. And the Titans are so interesting in the mythology because it is often seemingly arbitrary. What makes them Titans versus a typical god, you know, like the Olympians. It's nice and clear what makes them Olympians, But everyone else it's sort of random because you know, every source had kind of a different idea in mind, and there was no rules. Of course, there's no one deciding that, you know, this is how things function in Greek mythology. That's just sort of a thousand years of people writing these stories. And so yeah, you get people that are technically titans, but there's nothing about them that seems different from the gods. Yeah, it is. It is such a playground though, like you said, you know, there's just there's so much there and they are so interesting and I'm sure you've got to if you're having you know, the gods kind of bickering and arguing. The Iliad is such a great example of that happening. It would be fun to take what happens there and you know, use that to inspire you for yourself, Like we have all these different kind of little instances that you can use as inspiration to you know, expand or write your own story with.

Yeah. Yeah, they have their preferences. They protect hector but hate you for whatever.

You know, Yeah, I mean who doesn't love Hector.

He's great, isn't he? Isn't he right lovely spirit? Yeah he is.

He's definitely. I like to say he's the best of the men in the Greek or in the Yeah.

And Cassandra, she's fascinating, you know, such in sights and then they ignore her. Yeah.

Well, and she's interesting too because there's there's like, you get this idea about her, and she's so famous, you know, for being this prophet for all these reasons, but in terms of like actual sources, no one really like dives into her story. No one really gives us all the details that that we would want. And yet you know, she remains this like really famous character.

Yes ran for writers, Yes, because we can make that.

Yeah, that's why I I my favorite character is for that. And I've been writing a book forever. We'll see if it ever gets finished. But it was about Cadmus and Harmonia. Oh, they are great examples of that where we have this tiny little bit of their story and it's very important, but there are basically no details about it that survive.

Oh, I hope you get it, thank you.

Technically since two thousand and nine, no, two thousand and eight, so it's been a little while, fifteen years, I guess. Oh god, that's been a long time. Yeah, it's a very different form now than it was back then. But now I spend all my time writing my podcast, so I have little time, but one day, one day, the podcast is a good thing to spend my time on. Now, you said, Sibelle features in the next book, and I would love to hear anything that you want to say about her, because she's so interesting. I just recently did an episode on her for the show, because you know, as this kind of Trojan style goddess. She's so interesting because she moved into Greece and then later into Rome and everything. So yeah, I mean, I don't even know if that's not a question. I just heard a name I love. If you want to talk about her.

Well, you know, I ran into her when I visited a prodiseus in Turkey.

Ooh, of course.

And then I also ran into her when I visited the island of Hears, the Greek island where there is in the main town there is an area that they call Homer's Rock, and it is a huge rock. And the story the guides tell you is he used to gather his students and used to teach them how to write the epic that is Homer's Rock, and right underneath it was Sibele. They had found evidence of Sybelle and the worship offer. So that's where I ran into spell it twice and you know it sticks.

Yeah, well, I mean, oh yeah.

Going to museums and looking at statues, you get ideas about how they played music, you know, how they worshiped, how they did magic in the temples to impress you know, the crowd and all of that. So physically living in that space offers a lot. I'm changing the subjects. I'm so not all the time, but it is. It is. Going to the Acropolis Museum, You're going to find a lot of friends, you.

Know, absolutely no, please feel free to change the subjects as things like that. I'm more than happy, Like I that's fascinating. I didn't know about that. I have them the teos and I need to I mean, I need to go to all the islands. But yeah, those moments are are so meaningful, I think, especially as individuals, you know, going to these museums and seeing the artifacts for all, I love the Acropolis Museum, the National Archaeological Museum, in Athens is just like unbelievable and like life changing, you know. And even all the little archaeological museums in each city, you know, where you think like it's just I mean, they're often like really low budget museums, but there they've got some incredible stuff. Because there's just incredible stuff all over Greece, and so you know, even the cheapest looking museum has the most incredible artifacts in it. It's just amazing.

That's right, That's right. And you have, you know, have had some of the better conversations just picking up a topic with the guides in there. They sit and watch and make sure everything is safe. They know so much, you know, watching teachers take kids through the museums, you know, and tell them about what they are looking at. And I've learned. I've had to make changes in SIRC because I saw a picture of what a loom looks like. In my mind, I had the looms that we know today for posts, you know, and all of that. Oh no, they had them hanging with weights and that was the one direction and then they would wave through, you know. I had to go back and edit that.

Yeah, I mean, that's wonderful that you got that opportunity too. It's funny. I don't think I ever imagined what the ancient looms looked like. But I've talked to enough archaeologists that I just know that a loom weight existed, yes, but I'd never, you know, thought beyond knowing that that's a thing, you know, that they had. It's like the artifacts you end up kind of coming across if you go to enough museums, and but often the context is left out, like how that actually functioned, so you know, the way you learned that, and then we're able to change the story so that it fit, you know. The more ancient functionality is just it's really interesting. There's so many little bits and pieces like that.

Yeah. Yeah, to get a sense of their everyday life. I mean that it's such a gift, you know, it's such a gift. I love watching archeologists explain how they piss things together, you know, tell me what they eat. You know, I have to write about a symbosium. What will they serve? Do you know?

I mean that's the best part about what my job with this podcast has become because now over the last few years, I just talk to archaeologists and authors about their work like all the time and the things that I've learned from having you know, some archaeologists come on to talk about the most random little details of the ancient world that they know about, and it's just it's all, it's all fascinating.

Yeah, it's cool.

Yeah, well, I mean this, this is so much fun. I just want to you know, I want to make sure that we've we've talked enough about about your characters, Cerce and Skilla and Glaucus too, so fascinating, and then the book itself. But you know, I don't want to put you on the spot. But is there anything else, any other topic that you wanted to talk about from anything? Like if you want to start talking about museums again too, I'm fine with that.

I just thought, let's see what do I want to talk about. I want to talk about this being a book with a message about the possibilities of connection and how we can interpret and misinterpret intentions. So I just I just think it has value to think about these models, you know, because that's what these characters are, these models of how they approach life, how they falter, misinterpret and how they wake up. Oh now I got it. It's about that kind of play and it's definitely a feminist book.

Good. Yeah, that's a large part about why I wanted to have you on the show because that was in the email. So why don't you tell me a little bit more about that, Like, you know, what about it? Did you want to be feminists? Like where were you coming from and wanting to have these kind of feminist elements in the book?

Well, we spoke about Homer and how he, you know, talks about women in a kind of Okay, they are useful because Odysseus is traveling. You know, they are not filled out, they are not heroic, they are not big or Harrah. You know, she's always jealous and munching it Zeus. You know, that's not what women are. So that was a good motivation for picking a glorious creature and having her do good in the world. She's thought to be evil, not in my book. Not in my book. She's complex, but she is a do gooder in the end. So that's how I come about it. You know, I'm not a feminist in the sense that guys are wrong, although they can be a little bit or may be more than a little bit.

No, I think I mean that's the perfect way to come at it though. You know, I think a lot of the time these days, especially books are are sometimes marketed as though they're feminist just because they have a woman as the main character. But I think, you know, there's more to it than that, and it includes giving these women agency and looking at their stories beyond what existed in these you know, these versions like you're saying, like Homer, where the men wrote one thing, and you know, I think I think when it comes to studying, and specifically not studying, I suppose, but reading about Greek myths as like any old person, you know, walking into a bookstore and picking up a book, more often than not you're gonna get one either you know, ancient source or otherwise when it's written by a man. And really often these things are really biased, even when it comes to the ancient sources, you know, like in the ancient sources were biased. But I think a lot of people then and a lot of people defend this, and it's you know, the entire point of my podcast, So it comes up very often, but people defend it as if well, that's just the way things were back then, and it's like, no, that's just the sources we have, Like yeah, you know, it's yeah, and so I think it's so important to have Circe and and take back this kind of character and give her an actual character and an actual personality.

And yeah, and then you have you know, sources that talk about Aspasia, you know, I mean they existed, they just don't get the microphone often enough. So that's what we can do, we modern writers, is get them to speak to voice who they could have been or were who knows.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, I mean that's you've basically described why I run this podcast. It's that's me all the time. And I think it is so important. It's also just interesting, you know, like it's important, but it's also just valid and valuable information, and it's yeah, it's just interesting in itself. I actually, now that you mentioned Espasia, I I have I spoke with with a scholar recently who's got a new book coming out on Freney. The Court is in or you know, Hitthera if you want to call her that, who famously was supposed to have you know, gotten naked in front of the Athenian courts in order to you know, get herself off of a charge. And you know, she probably didn't actually get naked in front of the court. But she did do some incredible things and and we have a lot of really fascinating sources about her, but often, you know, people she's either not talked about or she's only talked about because there's a story where she got naked, and it's it's such a good example of the way women are. Even when we have sources about women, they're often still kind of, you know, made to be less important than the men or you know, yeah, I mean the way that Pericles is so famous and Espasia, i think, is now becoming a bit more famous, but it's a long time for her to go to reach Pericles level.

Yes, yes, exactly, exactly, always secondary roles in supportive guys. Yeah, yeah enough, yeah exactly.

Yeah, it's our turn. You've had it long enough. Well. I love that. That's I mean, that's wonderful. And Circe's Yeah, she's she's so complex. I think she like she comes across as evil in parts of the Odyssey, but then really not in others too. You know, she is really sympathetic and really interesting and I find that to be I find her to be one of the most interesting characters from Greek myth because she is a bit more complex than a lot of the women are presented.

Yeah, she was generous with Odascius. She helped him, you know, talk about Irasius and that you have to go get more advice before you try to go back home. She didn't have to do that, so that that was an element of grace.

Oh yeah, and I mean she warned him. The only reason that Odyssey has got anywhere is because of all the warnings she gave right the warnings about Skilla and Charybdis and and the does she warn him about the winds too? Like I feel like she gave him so many warnings and he screwed up most of them, but she tried really hard to help him. Yes, yeah, I just it's it's wonderful. Well, I'm utterly thrilled that there is this novel coming out an unexpected ally, So thank you so much for talking to me about it. It's been so much fun, and I love hearing all of this live.

It is amazing. It's like just rattling off and connecting with another fanatic. I have enjoyed it for me.

Oh, I'm so glad. It's really like I do this every few days because I have so many guests on and it's always this much fun because we're all big. We just love it and it's so interesting and it's just my favorite thing.

So thank you, well, thank you. I really appreciate the time you've given me.

Oh You're so welcome. I'm so thankful. Oh, thank you all so much for listening. I am just I'm so thrilled to have these episodes. I'm so thrilled to have conversations generally, but particular that I recorded a bunch before catching COVID that has been an absolute savior. On Tuesday, I will be back with I don't even know what yet because all my scheduling went out the window. But I'm going to write a script and it's going to be great and I'm pretty sure i'll be able to record it, which is all that matters. But for now, I really hope you enjoyed this. We had such a lovely chat. I do. I love having authors on about their to talk about their books. I am trying to make sure that I that I really intersperse those with with also just scholars talking about all the different topics from the ancient world that fascinate all of us so much. I've had a lot of authors recently because this is the season when all the books come out, But I am getting back to some of those roots of scholars and academics and archaeologists talking about the nerdiest stuff in the world. So stay tuned. We have so much more to come. You're all absolutely lovely. Thank you so much for listening. As always, let's talk about myths. Baby is written and produced by me Live Albert Mikayla Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians. My assistant producer, Laura Smith coincidence, I know, is now working with me on the podcast doing some audio editing. Oh my god, can you believe it? Someone who knows how to edit audio and also working to bring the website into being something that is helpful and functioning, could not be more happy to have Laura working with us. The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeartMedia. Listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For the first time ever, I am doing these credits from memory and it's going really well. Help me continue bringing you the world of greeg mythology and the ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron visit patreon dot com slash myths Baby, or click the link in this episode's description and patrons. If you are listening to this, you will have the this episode soon. COVID really took me out of everything. I am live and oh my god, I love the shit so much. I cannot wait to work on the next episode and be back in working and mythologically nerdy functionality, if that makes any sense. I am live and I love this shit.