BONUS: Researching Sparta Was A Trip, Behind the Scenes w/ Michaela Smith

Published Feb 11, 2023, 8:00 AM

In this bonus episode, Liv speaks with Michaela Smith who handled the research for the special Sparta series. They talk about researching for the show, and the ancient world in general. Help keep LTAMB going by subscribing to Liv's Patreon for bonus content!

CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.

Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions.

Oh hi, hello you nerdy nerds. Let's talk about Myth's baby, and I am your host live today. I am here with a fun and silly and deeply free wheeling conversation with MICHAELA. Smith, who, for the last year has worked with me to bring you all this podcast. As I say at the end of every episode, Michaela handles so many things and has helped immensely immeasurably with the Spartan series, specifically, like four Real, it would not have existed without her, so we thought, why not talk about it. We recorded this conversation about broadly what it was like to research Sparta for this series, but of course we also just talked about lots of other random ancient Greek things as they related to our research, and sometimes as they did not relate remotely to our research. But we're fun and interesting all the same. This is a ridiculously casual episode with lots of tangents and rambling, but it's fun and if you want more content, it is the perfect way to have a look at what has gone into the Spartan series and a bit more about what goes into every episode of this podcast. I will just say that an editing episode. I noticed a couple of references to Turkey, um, just in reference to ancient locations. But I want to make sure I acknowledge that this was recorded before the absolutely devastating earthquakes that occurred earlier this week. I'm thinking of everyone in Turkey and Syria right now. If you are a listener from that area, Oh my god, stay safe. Earthquakes are terrifying. This is the bonus episode. Researching Sparta was a trip behind the scenes with MICHAELA. Smith. This is a really casual episode in which I'm literally just talking to MICHAELA. We're going to try to not go completely off topic because half the time we talk we just talked about our pets. But this is this is work talk, not that when we talk about our pets is not technically on work hours anyway. UM, that's why this is a bonus episode. So we're talking today with MICHAELA. Who is my I never want to say assistant because it sounds weird. UM, so we call her the Hermes to my Olympians. But like, ultimately, like in terms of I mean she does she's a research assistant. Assistant assistant, I don't know everything. The only employee I have you can a loop and could be an employee. That's true, Yeah, totally. I don't know what he do. Manager there we go, all right, and then if I could pay him and then I would have double the money. Is that a thing? Well, it's all still my money. I mean it's literally I always look like using my business credit card and I'm like, I'm the only person who owns this business. It's just my credit card. But I'm like, suddenly, somehow it's different when I spend my business money. Yeah, you got to keep the receipts start. Actually, my mom's would make me do that forever. Oh yeah, Well, anyway, that's what this is a This is a bonus episode because it's going to be very casual, fast and loose with everything. But basically, michaela has done all of the research for this series on Sparta, so much of it. It helped in large part by the fact that she is going to university and has access to things like j Store and beyond, So thank the God for that. But yeah, so we just said we to talk about like how we did the research for this, or like weird stuff we learned about Sparta. Yeah, so I don't know why don't you tell me what it was like to do a bunch of research for me? MICHAELA. Like I had this day, like a month into it. I called my mom because sometimes sometime yeah, I'm just like Nacy, please sent me straight. And I'm just like I'm just reading things and make notes and she's like, yeah, that sounds like research. I'm like yeah, cool. I'm like it feels wrong because I do this for fun, and she's like, no, no, now it's going to be stressful. And I was like, great story of having a podcast. Do you take the thing that has always been the thing you do for fun and you make it stressful. Not to say that I don't still have fun, but like it is considerably more different when it is also the thing that pays my bill. Yeah. Yeah, And this is why I didn't go to school for piano, because I was like, no, I enjoyed this too much. Yeah, And that's why I was so happy to like no longer work with dogs, because it was like there was a day I was walking Zoe and I was just like, this feels like work. I don't like this, And now walking her is just a chore because it takes her thirty minutes to like walk the lengths of like two houses. She's like, I'm all to leave me alone. But she has been my she's been the assistant to the research assistant. And it's just been a lot of like thinking of keywords, Oh my god, words like how specific can I get? Visiting so many libraries. I am so thankful some days, like there's some great things called being indigenous and like this beautiful amount of like guilt some places have, Like UBC, it is just like if you are indigenous, you get a free library card, and I'm like saved seventy hanging out in UBC just like this. Well, one of the things I think is like both so interesting and so frustrating about Sparta is this like lack of Spartan sources. We've talked about it on the show and so but also like like a lack of Spartan sources. But then there's the question of like you know, how the other sources are influenced, but even still like so, for instance, I was just recording the Mythology episode that will have aired by the time this one comes out, and you know, we're just I wanted to talk about the myth characters that are so important in sparta um. But for the most part, like what, we definitely don't have Spartan sources for these myths um, but they're yeah, nothing at all. But then they're super famous characters in the broader history of Greece and mythology and stuff, so it's so interesting to navigate. And then like I wanted to shock a lot about the hair clyde I the return of the children of Heracles, but the primary source for that is Euripides. So it's like, well, no, like one, I don't have time to cover a play right now, but too, that's an Athenian play written by an Athenian, Like I think it's probably written like during the Peloponnese War, if not like shortly before after, Like which which play you're a clyde I. I'm so bad with the place, But yes, I know if it's got to be like somewhere in and around that time period because that's when Euripes alive and so yeah, and so it's just like I'm not going to use that play to tell the story because that feels irrelevant. I'm going to tell it of one day for sure, because it's Euripides. But yeah, trying to navigate that and then still get all the bits and pieces out that need to be shared. It's it's fascinating and I think it's making for both interesting and frustrating episodes for listeners. And uh, I mean, I mean that's like the thing though, that you learn once you start studying, like, um, you know the ancient of training or history in general is sources. Especially when we go back so far and you're looking at Greek and moment sources, there's like none, we have so little, Like my professors was talking about it in my bone class the other day and she was saying, like we have something like of what the Romans actually vote, that's nothing, and that's Rome, which is like we have more from Rome than we do from Greece. So god, that's painful to think about. There's so much that's gone. Like, um, if you have a maybe it's not a great suggestion, but like athenaus Um, I think of a later source, but he has like random citations all things. And so that's how we know some sources that we don't have, which is fantastic, but it's also so painful because you're just like, no, please, I want to read that. Yeah, I mean I think of people like I feel like Simonites is not necessarily the same way. He's definitely partially like that. But once, oh, Farrachites is who I'm thinking of. Farrakites is like this ancient photographer. He wrote a ton of stuff. He was a big epic poet. We know he wrote so much, and we don't have his stuff. We have like references to it, like a line here or there that somebody quoted or like, so we know that he wrote about all this stuff. We don't know what it is. And that is both so fascinating and so infuriating all the same time. And this like yeah, it's it's just utterly wild. And then like that exists for all of the ancient world. And then yeah, adding to it this idea like not only is that true for Sparta, but also like you know, most of the sources that do survive are biased towards Athens. Most of the scholarship that has been done on all of those sources for the last two thousand years is biased towards Athens. And then on top of all that, Sparta was secretive the recipe for disaster. Yeah, well that's we We got most of our sources from at because that's what everyone like even antiquity. They were like Athens became like the cultural center of re swim. But they also I think it just wrote things down more right, Like I think they also just like preserve, whereas Sparta was probably they focused more on the oral storytelling and thus we just don't end up having it. Yeah, and you know, I think it could be that partially. And I also just think it's like the unfortunate thing of we just don't know because Sparta didn't leave much behind, like even um like they would we I think we've talked about this and some of the episodes of We Will or We I don't know, But it was like the Fucidities quote where it was like you would never know if you went to and you saw the remains as Sparta, you would never know that they were such a powerhouse because there's nothing there, Like they didn't do monumental building the way Athens didn't. But Athens is like, you know, they just it's an entirely different cultural ethos is still very like it's it's hard to describe because I'm like it's all week in the end, but then you get to know each of the city states, and it's like they're so different that I think of them in my head like siblings, you know, not twins, siblings, and they all love to fight amongst each other, but if somebody else comes in, there will be like, wait, wait, let's just pause our fighting to like funk this one person because how dare they mess with us? And then that person leaves and then they go back to their fighting, and so it's like they all resemble each other with the world very big, um different and unique themselves because like Athens so much mocumentalization, like let's just build everything that's great, and we'll make everybody else pay for it too, Like we're not going to pay for it, We'll get it all our money from the Delian League because it's supposed to stop Persia again. But we're going to build our cropolis. Oh yeah, well. I think it also all comes down to this idea that you have until you're really deep in the studying of the history, like this overarching idea of Greece as a place right like we just it's really hard to wrap your head around what it was like back then because now we think of these places as like full comprehensive countries, you know, whereas yeah, they weren't at all united, Like there were different city states that united with other ones, but that also changed over time, and you know, everyone was so different. They had connections between them. I've just recently talked a little bit about like the Four Tribes too, So they were like united by these certain things, but they were still ultimately like really different city states with really different values and cultural ethos and like so many different things that made them completely different from one another. But now we look at it as this kind of one place, and then that just it just adds to this like ever growing confusion about what exactly was going on. You know, they're everywhere, depending on what region you're talking about and what time period too. And yeah, because they're so like the very they all they have like the identifiers, so they have like their cultural sort of like backing of what it is to be Greek, to be of that area. So they have like their shared um cultural history in terms of like mythical history, I guess, and then they have like a shared language, shared sort of like spirituality, religion, whatever you want to call it. But then although that that, it's like they didn't have much contact with each other growing up, because Greece's is not an easy place to just walk around. It's really hard this like this tons of mountains and everything. So unless you're getting on sea and like moving around the ocean, it's it's it's hard to leave and interact with people in different areas well. And add to that like the islands and how much distance there is in between them. And then because there was no you know, um channel in the in the business, like you also had to navigate if you even if you're going by sea, and I all the way around the Peloponnese like that, it's just such a yeah, it's such a monstrous like undertaking to get anywhere. Yeah, the chore now and it's like the ferries flames and still it's like good, I want to go to this part of Greece, but it's the opposite end of the other part I want to go see. It's like, you know, it's I mean, it's I guess it's like similar to BC in a sense, like you have tried driving through BC. For we're very big. I mean we're bigger than Greece. Dude. My mom and my sisters and I drove across Um not all the way across Canada to Lake Huron to go to Wiki and it was like BC was like twenty hours to get from the Lower Mainland to Alberta, and then it's like you get to Saskatchewan and you're through within like six hours, and you're like, well, and then Ontario. You spent three days, four days driving through Ontario. If you make it all the way through, my god, it's just because of the natural environment. And that's sort of like I think one of the things that people don't consider too much or think too much when they think about Greece is they don't really realize just how disjointed and disconnected everyone was from each other and how that affects them as they're growing up, which is why we look at these individual city states over and whole civilization, you know, well kind of and yeah, fingers crossed. And also Greece was all over the place too, you know, like the Greeks weren't just in modern Greece, were everywhere too. Because they had no resources, they had to leave, like they couldn't feed all the people, so they sent people out there and they were colonizing up and down the Mediterranean because that's what you do. I guess um, And it's just that's I think, just one of the things that like you don't really realize until you kind of get deep into the study of it. So it's like you miss out on these like sort of like the geographical or like how your space affects your culture and how it's going to develop, as well as like just how sad the sourcing problem is, just how painful it is because it's like, man, we're getting nobody's perspective, Like we're getting barely any who can we trust? I know, man, I had to. I just had to beat some hsid for class, and I was just like, God, he's so grumpy. Man like this, someone just give him like a cake and pat him on the back and be like you're doing good, It's okay. Just give him some reassurance so we can take a break. Such a jerk. But like that's the thing, like that those are the sources we have, and we have to work within the confines, which is why you know, using other um, like different fields of study is great. I love talking to the archaeologists that I've met. There's so much fun and they're like look at this plate I found, and you're like, good, job. It's beautiful and you just you learned. I love what ar y'all just find it made me so happy. Oh yeah, do I want to do it? I don't know, so I have bad knees. And then that's hard because like Sparta didn't leave much, so it's just like from all around, Sparta is just like, you know, flipping us off, being like you cannot know anything, and you're like, I would really love to please well well, And I think one of the things that blew my mind the most in and I learned this through talking to um the guests for the show, and like the I've mentioned it kind of in those episodes, but I recorded those episodes in the summer. I think you had started doing research. I had not looked at it yet because I was too busy with everything else from the podcast. So I recorded those episodes with the guests without any background knowledge, like at all. And and that was kind of great, honestly, because I think often I like to play the role of like the person listening and the things that they're learning in the moment too. But when of the things that really blew my mind is just this idea that like a lot of what we do think about Sparta. They wanted us to think, like it wasn't true and we don't necessarily have like archaeological evidence for it. We just have like sources that we're learning whatever Sparta wanted them to learn and like completely influenced not by necessarily what was actually happening at Sparta in Sparta except for maybe Xenophon, but but like what Sparta wanted people to think. And this idea that like after Thermopoli, which like I already knew kind of the more truth of Thermopola, but yeah, the idea that like after Thermopola, they basically looked at what happened, looked at how they were treated, and they were like, oh, actually things would be really really good for us in the broader world if people thought that this is how we played the game, Like if they thought that we were this brave and like you know, I mean they died, Like let's not pretend that they didn't have all that there Mopoli, but like this idea that they were willing to sacrifice it all that you know, three hundred Spartans stood up against what they call millions of Persians. Like obviously it's seen, you know as a kind of success even though it wasn't, because like that is inherently impressive if you were to believe what people are saying about it. Of course we get into it and it's like most of that is exaggerated, if not at right false. Right, there were way more than three hundred, certain like so many more, let alone all the hey lots. And then also they were definitely not millions of Persians, no questions. It's like my favorite meeting the Persian numbers. You're just like, okay, sure, I'll let yeah, you can see that, okay. Yeah. One of the things that one of the things that blew my mind talking to rule Um for the episode we did on on like the warfare and all of that aspect is like that and Herodotus seems to have presented this idea that they actually counted them really carefully and thus should be really accurate. But also like if there were as many Persians as they say, there would have been a column of Persian army like stretching all the way to Turkey and still in reaching Greece, but still in Turkey, because like how many people apparently were there, And you're like, okay, this is physically impossible. So it's it's so interesting. But like, but yeah, I mean to go back to the whole idea of like basically sparred us. Seeing the result of all of this and the way they were respected and feared, they were like, Okay, we're going to run with this, like we're going to make this our identity. This will benefit us, like fewer people will want to go to war with us. We will have a higher advantage when we do go to war because they're gonna be inherently afraid and think that we're gonna be better than we are, and like all these different fascinating things. But the idea that they did it on purpose is what I love so much. It's actually kind of genius, it is, you know. It's like I don't think they were particularly good at fighting compared to the rest of the Greeks. Quite frankly, I don't think they were anywhere near impressive. I just think they were really smart about how they did things, and like that served them great, Like they became essentially like the head of Greece for sometimes a short period time, but they still they did it though, and it's like we remember it so clearly and everything, and like even in later times, like Alexander comes in. Philip comes in, and Alexander comes in, and they're like messing around with the Greeks, trying to get it unto Macedonian control, and Sparta's like, no, I will not be Macedonian, and they kind of like, all right, you can kind of just chill there, and then I'm staying like the rest of the grease drawings with them, but they leave Sparta, which says like it says a couple of things, like obviously Smarta wasn't a threat at that I was going to say, mostly because they were not a threat, but like still look at them, going, oh, you're so cute, look at you. But like it's just fascinating. Yeah, it's Sparta. Sparta does that, and I think it's quite it's quite genius. I mean it worked for them, yes, And that's what's like, That's that's the thing, isn't it. If it works for at least for a bit, why not why not let people believe that, I guess, especially at that time, not so much now please have some But like it's the ancient Greek world. They were so ridiculous you've got to kind of just laugh at it. Oh and ridiculous. It's not just statement, but I know I was reading. I was trying to remember professor had told me this. I want to be saying that a lot because I'm bite deep into it. But a professor had told me that there was one point in The Persian Boy where Sparta was like, why don't we just build a wall like across the like block, yes, like the Helpanese, like by water, guys. Not the smartest idea, it's so funny. It's just sort of like, you know what, let's just abandon them to the Persians. And it's like, WHOA, Okay, I can understand some resentment from ath AND's side towards everybody else. That's your suggesting. You're just like leave them to burn. Good God. But I'm going to assume this is before the Battle of Salamus, which I think would have proved like what a bad or not bad idea so much as like useless, what a pointless idea. That's the thing with Sparta, though, It's like I don't think they were particularly geniuses. I think they stumbled into a lot of things really well, and when they saw an opportunity, like they opportunistic, almost saw an opportunity they ran with it, which is and it works for them for the most part, but then you get little bits like that and you're just like, what, how is that going to work in the long run, and it just makes you look bad within the wider like political sphere. I guess, like nobody's going to take you seriously after that. But yeah, well, one of the other things that surprised me so much in talking to guests about this is the idea that they also like really avoided war as much as possible, and as soon as you bring in the idea that like they did it primarily so that they could make sure that they were home to keep their heelots in line, but also just this idea that they basically like built up such a view around them as being so scary in battle that they could avoid battle entirely, like avoid proving or disproving it as much as humanly possible. But they also had so many like I forget which guest and how exactly they phrased it, but it was like this idea of like you could call them allies, but really they were like working for Sparta, like it didn't go both ways, Like they had so many regions like that they were kind of like under their thumb in a really specific way, and that like they would defend Sparta, but Sparta was not expected to defend them back. And just yeah, the way they made that work for themselves is so interesting. And while yeah, I mean, it's like it is brilliant in its own way, but you're right, I do think it's also like they stumbled into some of it, they thought up some of it. I also think that they had a really I don't want to say good, but I think they had a really interesting sense of self preservation that I think worked really well in some ways and really not well in other ways. The population, Like I just I don't I think it's I love Sparta and I've always loved Sparta, Like I think they're fascinating, and I like laughing at things, especially so if I find something that has it's easy to laugh at it. I'm just I'm fun with it. I'm like, this is great, get some giggles in. But I don't know, have you seen um Glass Onion and Knives Out Mystery? Okay? Do you remember at the point where they're like, oh my god, the whole plan is a genius and Blanche is just like, no, it's just dumb. It's just stupid. That is how I feel about Sparta, where it's just like you look at it and you're like, I'm srilliant. Yeah, they just stumbled into it and you're just like, oh, okay, they're just like in ways, it's like there's something. Yeah. I think they're smart and to a degree, but I also think they're just really opportunistic the chances when they got it, I mean, because they're not even in like thinking about like where they are in the peloponies, like they're on an okay spot, they're kind of in land, rememverything like yeah, and the hello, it's like what are they going to do? Well? Yeah, I mean yeah, their location is interesting because I mean they're kind of tucked in, but they are like compared to say, Okay or something like, they're pretty you know, close to the the sea to an extent, but they are just kind of I mean. Also, I would like to say, and I say this too much and like it probably really makes me seem less smart than I actually am. But I do base a lot of my memory points on how much I have played The Hassand's Great Odyssey. So the map that I am picturing. I know you'll think it's okay, I know that it's everyone else. It's a great map, and I haven't memorized, um so if I need to know where something is, I just have to think about that. And if it's not in the Assassin's Creed Odyssey map, well then I'm going to have to google it. Uh so here we are. But yeah, that's all to say, like it is an interesting location that they're in, and yeah, I don't know it's it's generally it is fascin to think about. And I think even with her appeal, I like it's a good example of um, of what you're saying of like kind of stumbling into it because it's not like I mean, not that they would necessarily set out to think like if we sacrifice all of our people will be able to use it to our advantage. But yeah, basically like everyone died, including one of their kings, like it didn't go well, and you know all of the things about like not um, you know, I think of the movie three hundred because I think that's where a lot of people, at least in North America like get their ideas for what three for what the Spartans were all about and like a lot of it. Sorry, can I just like pipe fast? Because I don't know if you know this yet. I still have never watched three really, Oh my gosh, so asleep. When movies get turned on, like within ten minutes, I'm passed out, unless it's like certain movies. But okay, how I'm fascinated. Then this is great. I actually love this so much because I think and I think a lot of people are going to be annoyed with how much I have brought it up because it is my whole reference point. Most people like, you know, I hope that's true, but I don't know. Then people that got nippy at me because my reference point for Atlantis was Disney and they're like, oh my gosh, she has no idea what time? I'm like, well, yeah, I'm kind of playing that role of like the every person like chill out. That's the point I'm not saying. I'm not that Yeah. And so so if you haven't seen three hundred, like what are your reference points on thromopli? Like what did you think about it before going to school? Like what is your whole deal there? Okay, so yeah, so me what my reference for Themopoli and Spartans increase in general if I haven't like, sort of experienced that much. So I am indigenous, um. And when we were younger, my mom, my mom did her best to try to keep us involved in things as much as possible. The thing is, i grew up on the West Coast um and I'm not a West Coast First Nations person. I'm from I'm an Ishinabe, so it's out east Great Lakes region and bit of Indigenous history of Canada in this episode, and I like it. And my grandma just got upset when all her kids were like moving out here, so she just packed up like my mom and the younger kids and moved everyone out here too. And now I grew up out here, people are like your first Nations, what are you rescuing? Hum? And I'm like no, and they're like what is that. I like, that's all we're talking. But my mom made sure that we were in stuff um um. That was really important for her, especially because when she was growing up, you know, like a lot of my aunts and uncles are not chill with the fact their first Nations And that was just because that was the culture at the time. It wasn't safe in a way. My mom, on the other hand, is very, very very fiercely um in love with her culture and her people in her history. She loved her mom um and everything, and she's very very proud to be First Nations and she works with First Nations people doing stuff. Um. She's just really like I really admired that about her, and she fought really hard to make sure that me and my sisters knew that we were First Nations, um, which included us going to things like Um. The thing that the Lobal Mainland does is that like students who are First Nations, they also have a First Nations counselor who sometimes takes them on special field chips. All right, So we would often go to like ceremony like how wows a pot? Latches and stuff and um. The fun thing about being a little little Native kid is getting to sit by all like the older like uncles or the grandfathers or whatever and listen to the stories and how they would tell us all these stories. It was really fun, but loved it. My sister, I have no idea how she She just likes reading, that's probably it. She discovered Egyptian mythology and she'd read all these stories and then she discovered Greek mythology, and she'd read all these stories. And what she would do is she would, you know, I would sit at her feet, look up at her, and she would tell me these stories off the way that our eldest told us stories at ceremony. And so that's kind of how I got into it. It's I kind of think backed off of my sister's obsession. Um today also was really excited because her name is Tonay and she learned who Donay was in Greek mythology and she was like, oh no, And I'm like, at least you're like hero son isn't completely an idiot like hers, isn't the worst one to have. And she was like, I don't like it. Like my mom then learned about the name and she was like, that is not who I named my child. Um So, I just kind of I was also a kid who read a lot, so I just read things all the time, like I think, I man, I don't even know. I just was beating all the time. I said, can't even I don't even know how I like first learned about spart I feel like it was a combination of Denay eating and me beating and stealing her books and beating her books. It's kind of just I think we just I just stumbled upon it at some point. I can't don't have a clear memory of it. I know, I you know, definitely when I was younger, I believed it's the sort of the thing everybody believes about it, And then at some point it was pointed out to me how weird that is, and I was like, yeah, well, yeah, I guess. I guess that's what I'm so curious about, because like I obviously like knew about spart and stuff before, but just like all the different I guess. I mean, I've been saying it NonStop in this in this series, but like all the different things that make them weird, I think are really heightened. While they are definitely really heightened and like emphasized in three and a really interesting way. And there will be another bonus episode where I'm sitting down with Ben of the Classical Studies Memes for Hellenistic Teens to talk about the movie three hundred and all of its wild things. Um, but I do think that, like whether or not you, obviously, I think rational humans do not believe everything that is in that movie because it is nonsense, um obviously, like it is also super racist once you look at it later and I've seen the clips and I'm like help, fun, Yeah, it's like it's like orientalism in a movie. But like even ignoring that, that excuse me, Like even ignoring that, even ignoring like the really obvious problematic stuff, you get this idea of Sparta and and it does seem like pretty realistic. And what's so interesting about it, Like not only that, I think it did teach a lot of people what they think they know of Sparta, whether they believe it or not. Like what is fascinating about it is talking to people about it. Is like the a lot of the stuff in Sparta itself is true, like from the movie is true to the extent of ancient sources, but not true to the extent of like objective archaeological truth, which is so interesting. So like like the movie and like the graphic novel that it is based on, is really true to Plutarch and to Herodotus, like very very true to them, which is fascinating. But then so so that's what makes I think a lot of people think that the movie and the book are accurate because they work really heavily off of those two sources. But then once you know, you know, and you're like, well that Herodotous and Plutarch didn't actually know what they were talking about much when it comes to Sparta. Obviously, Herodous knew way more, like he had way more access points. He was actually from the right time period, like he was born during the Persian War or like two years after it or something something like that. His his like the generation before him, would have been the people fighting in the exactly he interviewed and he spoke to them. Yeah, so he had like a lot of real access points, but because of the Sparta of it all, he got a lot of weird, bullshit ideas. And so it's it is really interesting to think about it that way. And like I don't want to talk too much with movie, but as somebody who hasn't seen it, like, yeah, I was just so curious kind of like what you thought. I don't know, I don't know all of this started go ahead. I think I think I thought a lot of it. Um, I think it's seeped in to sort of my perception of Sparta. I'm like, I've seen clips, you know, of course I've seen like the Sparta memes and the little clips and whatever, because of course, but I didn't. I wasn't Like I honestly like when I was doing the search all this year, I was like, should I take a moment and like watch the movie and see what people think? Because I even like, I remember the one of the first things was like, how think about like how what people think of Sparta? And like how how true is that? How how does well does saddle line with um the Spartan and antiquity and reality? And I remember sitting there like literally called my sister. I was like, hey, what do you think of when you think of Sparta? And that I'm I'm the idiot for asking her because she was just like, oh blah blah blah blah blah. I'm like, right, never mind, you're not the person for me to ask, because you've read about I don't like you don't care, so like it seeps in. So I think I did have that sort of general like, oh, they're probably pretty good warriors kind of thing, not to the extent that they were, and so it was quite supposed to going in I'm just like, oh, look at these like it ancient Greece pulled through and they're just a bunch of stumbling little idiots, just like I love them to be. Like, I'm so happy that they just were like because I mean, like I think you mentioned in one of the podcasts, like whenever you play um Odyssey, you always side with Athens. They just I don't feel that right now, Okay, because now I think, yeah, I was first playing the game. Yeah, I don't remember, but I remember hearing that being like, how dare no, Oh we Sparta They're fun. They seem like they like to I don't know. I think I would love to see a Spartan party because I've heard what Athenian ones are like, and I wouldn't know. You would have never seen a Spartan party, Michela. Those were made for dudes and only dudes. I don't even think the Spartan's like had hit Tera in there that we know of, right, like they was, I bet they did. I think they were way more dude focused. Even they were hellots. They were slightly yeah, true slaves, but yeah potentially I mean like also because like they all ate their meals together, like that's fun. But it was like all the men in the one who it has that sense of like um keeping everyone together and of the same mind and sort of up of having each other's backs and in a way like you know, well, it's it's almost brainwashy though too, like it's cult like it's like an adoctrination exactly. Like I think that if you were to compare, yeah, if you were to compare the things that make a cult and make a cult successful to what Sparta did, Like it is really specific, like they were they intentionally kind of isolated them from their families. The men always had the dinner together with all the same men every single night, and it's like part of your culture and it's really ingrained that like if you are a Spartan, you do this, you know, And I think, yeah, they were. They were probably the one of the most, if not the most culti of ancient Greek city states in terms of like being a Spartan and what that required and like what was expected of you, because there's not a lot, there's no other where they were like you had to provide for the state. You had to have a farm that gave the state what it needed. You had you could not work your farm, you had to have it run by helots, like all these different things they were so required of you in order for you to be a Spartan. It's really interesting and unique. But I always wonder, like how much of that actually was the reality of the situation, because like, I think that's definitely what uh the image we get and the idea, but we don't get sparting voices, so we hear this sort of like spartan overall what was expected of them? But I wonder if it really was so Like it's hard because on one hand, it's like, yeah, that's why they were so short lived, because how the hell is that you can see the evidence of it. How is that like it just doesn't it wasn't it just failed miserably and beautiful at the same time. It was great. But like then it's like I wonder how much was like Okay, just let them, you know, maybe he doesn't want to maybe he wants to go home for dinner tonight. Yeah, you know, like I wonder what it was in practice and sort of some of the because yeah, I mean, I managine it was not like all like every single day without without fail, but I do yeah, I don't know, like from all the people, all the guests and stuff I've had on it seems pretty well accepted that like, nah, these parts of it, we're definitely like the things that made them weird because because they are very weird, like they're still very like like I've been trying to like, how do I how do I write this in a way that makes sense, because I don't know how, um. But it's like when I say, when I was describing them as like they're not really like what you'd expect of the Greeks, it's like they are and what it's like you look at them and they are objectively Greek like, but they're also so just strange. So well, yeah, And I think it's because are the broad like cultural east, definitely North America, but I think broadly in like the quote unquote Western world. Um that like the generally accepted under like just way of understanding Greece is through Athens, entirely through an Athenian lens. Like you think of ancient Greece, you think of Athens, and like that's not you know, that's in large part because of sourcing in and because of the people that studied it for a very long time. And you know, I think a lot of people are working to make it not all about Athens now. But yeah, like everything we think about the quintessential idea of like an ancient Greek is from Athens, from Athenian tragedy, from Athenian philosophy, it's all from Athens. M Yeah, It's kind of fortunate, I mean, and fascinating all the same. Getting a little bored of Athens. Yeah, no, man, And you know, I think it's also people are looking at different periods to like the classical period has been studying enough. I was reading reading an article about like archaic Sparta, like who were they before the reputation came along? And it was very interesting. I was really enjoying it. Um And there was a lot about just like song culture and I'm like, musical theater kids, That's just what I'm going to see though, music storytelling kids. But they didn't do the theater thing. Yeah, I mean, I'm dating a musical theater kid. At the amount of time he just like sings and like stairs and sing and I'm like, please please stop. I can't I can't stand it. Oh my god. I don't know how he puts up with me. But yeah, they were very very different. They were all just like more about singing and song and of course like exercise, because anywhere exercise. Yeah, but that's also the time period when they went in and UM annexed Messenia, So it's like, what's going on there, like why did they make And it was most probably resources man like they lived in a pretty fertile place. They could grow some food, but in general, also a grease is just badaction. Yeah, yeah, it's it's hard. It's hard to find food and you need to feed a growing population, which it wasn't growing for long. Oh no. And then it just like went down hill and they were just like no, we're still spider guys and they're not. And then everyone comes into like, oh my god, they's so cute and they're like fear us poking them a little pin. So what is what is like the most fun I guess the most exciting thing you learned researching all of this. Oh my god, most exciting. Yeah, Like, and then I'll also ask you what's the weirdest, So don't feel like you have to pull out the weirdest. Now have you looked at Lakoni in art? No pottery is it weird? It's not super it's still like you still look at it and you're like, yes, that's Greek pottery but a bit different. Like Athens was very good. They're pottery and they're drawing, so we get all those because they're very pretty. But then you look at the Laconian stuff and you're like, what the And I want to put the pictures of them in the pomo, but I'm like, I can't find a good place for them. That's sketchy. But like it's just it's it's so interesting. Yeah, if you want to send me pictures, I'll just post them too. Yeah, I can do that, write that. Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, that's really interesting. No. I So I like really need to get further into the Peloponnese in one of my visits, um, but it's not easy to do unless you're driving, and I don't do that. So I've only yeah, I've only been as far as nap Cleo, which is not far enough, but it is in the Argo Lid, so I have at least in through the argolid H and I could see yeah, I could. You can from Napleo you can see the Spartan peninsulas. You can see like tettos and stuff, which is cool. At least I thought it was you can see big gas mountains, So in my head, I was like, that's yet, That's fine. It's it's somewhere over there in that general direction, big gas mountains in the Peloponnese. I don't Modern Sparta has a museum. They hold a lot of stuff in there, So yeah, I need go there in Olympia. Yeah, I just need to go to Grace again. Last time I was there, I was seventeen and I was with my Very Difference. That was the first time I went to Very Different. To the listener, we just talked about a bunch of random stuff and then cut it out. So we're pulling it back to talk about like, I mean, yeah, I guess early Sparta Bronze age um, and then also like maybe Homeric Sparta, so yeah, like yeah, what do you I mean, Bronze age everything, So just whatever, Bronze age for life. I love, like, I love the bonze age. It's fascinating death. I can waste the Bronze age next, I would. I mean, it's just the sourcing, man, But yeah, if you can handle all of that, do it up, and I'll do bettert this time because I'm highly critical of everything I do, and I can point out every little thing that I don't like how I did. In fact, I know, like one of my things is I'm going to be starting to write the episodes from the beginning of research. Yeah, that's well that that's the big thing that um I do with the mythology. But like also because this is the first time we've really dived into history, like I didn't really know what the best way it was to do it either. Um yeah, one of the big things for me and why like every time people are like, so, how can you build up you know, how can you take more off of your plate in terms of the podcast, And I'm like, look, the number one time consuming thing is scriptwriting and I'm not going to give that up because it's like my whole personality. And it's like I can't just get somebody to research because there's no point they're going to do a ton of work that I'm not going to use because I read the myth and I write the script all in one moment, stream of consciousness nonsense, and so like it it just has to happen this way because that's how it works. And yeah, I mean I think doing the research while while writing. In hindsight, yeah, is a very is a smart way actually for things in terms of like, um, the thing the areas of like Greece, studying sutting Greek Greece, that I excel out a bit more compared because like, quite frankly, you are a bit much better mythology. If you don't, you don't give yourself enough credit. I'm going to say that, like, oh, I'm fucking queen of mythology. Thank you. I'm happy to Oh my god, are you kidding? But yeah, like when it comes to like history and stuff like, that's why I will. I am so happy to like read about that ship, and I'm like, I just got to start writing it from the beginning because of what happens is when you're ready to dive into it, it's all bitten there and you get to just go look at everything and read it all and then you change it into your voice and it's just so much easier instead of us both sitting here and going, oh my god, I know this has been This has been so much more difficult than I thought it was going to be. I've cried just a little bit, but I do not worry. I also the number one thing I've learned, and we're going to work it into next year. Um, and I'm happy for the listeners to hear this because I think this behind the scenes weird and interesting. But like we are not doing it in January? Like why I ever think that the darkest, saddest months right after the holidays? Like why I think that that is the best time to do a research heavy episode series where I completely step out of my comfort zone of mythology and I try to sound like I know what I'm talking about, Like why I keep thinking that January is the time to do that is so far beyond me. I have such bad seasonal depression. The holidays took everything out of me. I don't know how to be creative, let alone creative about something that is out of my realm. Like oh my god, and I want to scream. But then maybe March, but maybe we'll do Like it'll be like March or April, maybe April because exactly April doesn't have well, yeah, it's second quarter. The only reason I changed it is that March's women's Yeah yeah, so for my themes, we'll do it. April April will be our month for a series. Sad depressing month. We just put all the sad stories and by while working on or I just do like some more rears because sometimes I just want to cry. It's just like a class introduction. They're like, tell us about your favorite hobbies, and I was like video games crying it's me, yeah, no, it's I mean, it's it's such a struggle. And then also like the thing that keeps coming out of these special series and particularly this one, where like I want to share everything, but also I obviously can't and I don't have I still don't have the brain space or the time to do. Like I can work with all the research you've given me, but I still can't even refer to all of it because you found so much, I don't have time to look at all of it. And then also, um, like these scripts end up so much longer than my traditional script. Every episode that normally would be thirty minutes is at least forty five. Like that means that a script that would normally be like max five thousand words are all like creeping on seven thousand words. And it's just like the it's yeah, it has been a trial, It's worth it. I'm fascinated I love Sparta. I hope people are enjoying it, but also to be done, I was already looking at because I'm having such bad writer's block. I was like, Okay, maybe I can work on a future episode, Like what is a really fun myth that I want to tell? Like what would give me joy in a way that I have not experienced it in a while? Like what would bring me joy? And I can't think of anything right now, but I'm I need to. I need to pull something. Yeah, I need to find joy. Where did it come? It's all gone, it doesn't exist anymore. No, that's fair. Yeah, I'm going to go back to the Bronze Age. Right, we were talking about the Bronze Age. Oh my god, because I love the Bronze Age. And that's also the thing that I find really interesting about Sparta is like one could argue Sparta is present in Bronze Age, at least Peloponnese. In Um people's were much more present in the Bonde Age than the rest of the mainland than the rest of the mainland. Yeah, and that's and like that is where they get sort of like their cultural, sort of mythological understanding of themselves, right, Like you get the Homeric epics, which you know, just this point to a society that they were at any point. I don't think so, but to a degree, especially when you look at like Mycene and Mycene and culture, like it's fascinating. I love my scene. It's my favorite I've been to. Mycene is the most incredible thing ever. Oh my god, oh my god. Yeah, no, it was. It's so pretty man. And I don't know if the cistern is open anymore, it's still open. I walked down into it just a week. Yeah, yeah, I love it. Life. It was great. Yeah. I love dog places because they're fascinating. They're so interesting and they're present. And then you know, my other bondze Age Greek civilizations other than like you know, we have the people of like this the Claddic Islands, but then we have the Manoans, and they're so different. You can't like you can't really tie Athens to like Mycene and the way that you can tie Sparta to Mycene. And then certainly when you read like Neeliad and Homeric epic, Sparta's right there, like front and center is the main character. It's the theme in the Aliad, not think you know what I mean, like she's right there and where's Athens? Just a little breextension some way? What was it? Like the catalog of Ships? Just it's only yeah, there there's one. There's like just a yeah, a passing reference in the Catalog of Ships. And I actually, um, when I spoke to Joel Christensen, who studies Homer, he suggested that it also that could have been like a later edition when written down, Yeah, because like they really there was like there's not nothing in Athens in the Bronze Age, but there was like very little compared to the rest of the great Yeah. And Athens is interesting because it's one of the because it wasn't my my Senian. Um, Yeah, it wasn't Mycenean. I mean I think that also like Athens was my skin. Yeah, that was my there the acrocolist straight up as like Mycenean's sister and on it. That was their ship, that was their city. Okay, thoughts that I like, so I learned a thing and it's absolutely wild and I keep forgetting to like ever mention it let alone to you, But did you know that linear b A. I think it was linear being not A. Oh, I I know, but it'd be cooler if it was A because one of the two was found all the way on samoth Thrace. Yes, that's the face that we want here for the listener at home face. Yeah. And samoth Thrace is the furthest Island Greek modern Greek island in the northeast. It is so far from the places that were predominantly using linear A and linear B, so far in the middle of the ocean. It's tiny, so there there was not a big Bronze Age presence there at all because it's tiny. It would be so much work. But linear A or B has been found there and they did have like a pretty big archaic and classical presence. It was enormous and the Hellenistic period though, So that's the other thing is that it was biggest in the hell Anistic period, which is so late. But one of those two languages I wish I remembered, which has been found there in like a whole I think to like, it was like there's this um, there's this archaeological site that like you can't really access because it's it's in the They have a military base there because it's close to Turkey. Yeah, and so I forget that. I talked to a bunch of archaeologists there and they were telling me all about this. But yes, one of the two languages this is sorry, I just googled him. Outside of Crete, Cretan hieroglyphic writing has thus far been found only on the island of sammoth Wace in the north off Wait, but that can't be linear a then if there's, because that's the before before, well then you're a. Then was also found there because you know, it was one of the linears. But like sam of Race, it is tiny. Yeah, yeah, oh my god, it's fucking crazy. Yeah, and so far, like it's so far from crete. Uh. In addition to over thirty locations on crete, objects with linarrey have been found on the Greek mainland in Palestine and Egypt on Kiss the Sick Ladies and samoth Race. Question Asia minor fucking anything? Oh my god, do we leave that? Yes? Absolutely? Are you kidding? I kept learned that. I learned that, and I remember it blew my mind so hard, like everything I learned on samoth Race, but like I was a holy fuck And then I just kept forgetting to like share it ever, so I'm very yes. So the acropolis was a Mycenean citadel at some point, amazing at least from my knowledge. So do we kind of just generally use the term myceny and to refer to all Bronze Age and reigion. Yeah, they did get to they did get to crete, so they did know. I know they did because they like, yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. Like, do we know of other Bronze Age but like cultures that we wouldn't call myceny and that we're on the mainland in that area or that I know of, because yeah, the like it was pretty typical for mycene and people's to like build their citadels on high places because you could see around you. It was more easier to defend. And you see that, and like I think it is, like the late twelfth century, you see a lot more fortification of Mycenean sights, which you know suggests that there's some ship going on. They're worried about um, and you know it it blows up. But this is what I was gonna say about Mycenee and Athens. Athens is the one, one of the few. It could be the only or it could be one of the few Mycenean sights that stays active throughout the Iron Ages and into the Arcaic period, Like they're still they're doing stuff. And it's because most Mycenean sites aren't. We how potato, Like, you know, nobody lives in mycene A. It's not a bad place to live, and nobody lived there afterwards. Well, that's what's so interesting about learning about the mythology of the Peloponnese and this idea of the heraclyde I write and like the return of the children of Heracles with the Dorians, and this idea of a Dorian invasion, Dorian Dorian migration. What have you like is their way of using mythology to explain the historical thing that happened, which is that, yeah, like the palaces fell into disuse and we don't really understand why. And clearly they registered not necessarily like they didn't give it a why that they didn't use the palaces, but they give a why to at least the idea of like different people coming in and displacing or removing the people that had built the palaces. And the thing that's interesting then, I think is the discourse between Athens and Sparta, especially because when you think of like Athens found myth but um, you know, I'm terrible with names. Erect I always forget if it's Erectheus or Ethonius that starts it, but one of the two. Yeah, the snake, yeah, yeah, and the and then being um a talk the Nous, the from the earth, and they were there before the Dorians came in. And then they sort of look at Spart and they're like, well, you're the descendants of those people who came in, so you're not actually of here um and whereas of themselves to talk to the nest I don't know their myth about it, but they were like, no, not only are we a talk to us, we are older than everybody else, which is fascinated. And then when you like look at that in comparison with like um Especial's like ovestes, like, I think this the episode of yesterday's episode today, what day is it? It's Friday? Never mind? Time? What's time? Constantly clips? But yeah, the promo you did for our episode press yeah, so that of him being before everything, So it's like you make some claim with that, and it's just you know, because like the Homeric and the old stories and the mythology that is. I mean, like I come from a culture that is myth based, you know what I mean? Like are a history? Are stories? Are our way of view in life is told through myth. I describe it as like I grew up in myth so like I understand the impact of that and the importance of that. You understand where you are in the world based on these stories that you are told and are passed down. They get changed all the time because everyone has a different way of telling things. But it's just so interesting that for Sparta, their story has them coming in, but they do have these like there, Yeah, they do have all these other little workarounds though, because in addition to what you're talking about with the conversation with Maria Pretzler is I just recorded this mythology one and I was referring to I have this like big book on Heracles. It did not have anything on the hair Claude, which I found to be hilarious. But no, I have this, Yeah, I know, I have this book called Heracles by Emma stafford Um and it had a lot of great stuff on the hairclad eye thankfully, um. But basically they have all these different kind of workarounds to account for the fact that they are and are not a top finist basically, Like, so the arrestues thing was interesting, I didn't find like references to that beyond the conversation I had. UM. Obviously, I trust her, she knows what she's talking about. But um Essentially the other kind of workarounds are this idea that like, um, so Heracles. You know, it's interesting even that Heracles has some kind of tie the Peloponnese. I've I've yet to figure out exactly how they constantly figure that out because he's from thieves. But like whatever, andywhere exactly Like it doesn't matter because Heracles and he. I mean, if you like comparative mythology is really interesting. You can find figures like Heracles and so like this, like trope of this, this kind of figure. You find them in almost all mythology system and especially in the endoing European one, like you can see them. I mean, it's essentially Heracles. And I don't know the Indian um pantheon very well, but they have a Heracles figure mm hmm two and it's yeah Heracles. Yeah, well that's the thing, and he's kind of all that mattered, and so yeah, basically it seems to me that like the idea is like, you know, so he was born in Thebes and his mortal father, so like he is the son of Zeus, but he obviously like had a mortal father too. He was married to his mother and Phitrion and Pitreon gets like kicked out of thieves and he goes and he like seems to take over Tyrans in the Peloponnese and then and then he's overthrown and so like a bunch of different things happened, but that this seems to be like the kind of tenuous link to the Peloponnese Um. But basically that is all to get around too. There is this like idea that, okay, so we want to be both children of Heracles and at least in maybe not literally a top finis, but like always there kind of thing. Um. So they have this idea that Heracles installed Tindarius like as a friend, and so then you get this connection between Heracles and Tindarius, who then gives you the connection between everybody else. So that like sure Helen and Menealists aren't necessarily related to the Heracles myth, but we have this way of like connecting them. But then the other means of understanding the Heraclyde eye and I couldn't figure out exactly how this worked, but basically there's like a there's some sourcing on um when the children of Heracles calmed down to like retake the peloponnese Um, at some point in the fighting arrestes his grandson dies and so yeah, but then so I couldn't tell the which side he was on. So I'm like, are you saying he's like with the children of Heracles you're linking that, or he's saying he's one of the ones who's killed when they come in, which you would think they wouldn't want to do that because then that would be negating the connection to like Helen and mentalists. And I'm not but like, if if arresting his grandson had no children himself, no direct heir, there could be an argument for, well, our grandpapa put your grandpapa on the phone, and now you're gone, so now we shall take the throne, Like I guess either, well, it's it's that And though if you make that, that's exactly the point that they're making, but with a different connection, which is that like no, yeah, the idea is that they killed off that line by killing Orestes his grandson. But what that does is negate the curse two, right, So like by doing that and like explicitly connecting with but and ending the line of Agamemnon at all, then you are getting an end to my famous, my favorite curse to talk about because I like to give it all of its names, so you know, the tant Lid curse and then the curse of the Pelopid Eye, and then the curse on the House of Atrius. You get to end all of that with this kind of connection, and and it's like further connection to Heracles because like yeah, like we're saying, ultimately, as long as you have a connection to Heracles, like it doesn't actually matter the rest of the story. And it's why like there's no details in any of it. It's just like Heracles came here. I'm not going to tell you when or why or how. No, he was here, and that makes us cool them, Yeah, I mean yeah, I think also that it makes sense like Heracles is sort of like the every week's hero too. M he so Greek. Yeah, I mean he as long as you have a connection to Heracles, no matter where you are in Greek, that you have this exactly like your Greek, you're important. You're like kind of have this sort of divine like I've talked a lot about in this this myth episode, this idea of like like basically being the children of Heracles gives them like divine right to the land, regardless of being a talk finist, and it's like he is divine and he's not divine, but ultimately he is, like he is still the only hero that ever becomes like fully god. Um. Yeah, I don't know, it is just generally interesting. I am broadly so fascinated by Heracles and the way that like everyone wanted to be connected with him in some way, and like the lengths they did and then the length that they would go to to get that piece is always entertaining, and like it's always feels like such a tenuous, like stretched out thread just to be like. But Heracles, he's he's one of us. Yeah, I mean, he gets adopted into so many different things, and he's one of those ones that sticks out to everyone. Hercules now but like sorta figures so much and sort of like the pan Hellenic myths of like Homer like the huge like the Iliad is huge, and everything leading up to it, and Helen and everyone like um Penelope is like fum the area, Like I know, they're so connected with Like I mean, it's like you have to think about Homer not as a myth, you have to think about it in the way they thought about it, which is that like it was basically history, like it was their history, they really and so it's not like any other myth, like I compared it to to theseus in in this episode in my myth episode, because like that is the difference, right, Like Spartans are descended of the heroes of the Trojan War, the Athenians. They've got theseus like get out of here. That's nowhere near as impressive. And so I also think that like for all the attock pon he gets you, they doesn't ultimately matter. They just be like, well that's fine, Like sure we're not a tocanus, but we've got Heracles and Mentalis on our side, so like it doesn't even matter, Like it completely negates any need for a tocany because our origins are the origins of the entire Greek world, the language, everything is tied up in Homer, and so it inherently is like the most important connection you can possibly have, dear culture, and how big a deal Helen was to like cultures other cities would look at well, we know what Athens looked at her, and then it's like, yeah, who, because like she was a big fucking deal in s parted they had the mental Aion and you know, it's probably where they went and like worshiped Menalis and Helen, and like they had like a certain like ceremonies specifically to do with Helen as well well. And they think that she was a huge deal. And they also think that the yeah, the mental aon Um was built over tau of an original temple that was just to Helen in the time when they would worship ladies a little bit more. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, and then um Euripides Helen. It's interesting because it's towards me. He's writing that towards the end of the Peloponnesian War, when Athens is getting the Athens is not in a great position at that point, and that Helen. It's so it's so it's such a kind treatment of Helen and there was an article of it. I think I sent it to you and I was like, you have to beat this. This is fascinating, um, but it had it pointed out like is there a little bit of like trying to soften some opinions towards them. They're being like, hey, Helen, she didn't do what we said she did. She was in Egypt the whole time being a good, good wife. She wasn't. She was good like at all. Just trying to ingratiate themselves a little bit with them. They're like, no, anything we said about her before in the past, she wasn't a lying, cheating or she was a good woman. Like it's so fascinating to think about. Yeah, why yeah, why now I like them? Yeah, but I had to I need a Sparta break. Whence this is all done? If anyone, oh my god, I just gonna like pterod actyls scream in their face. I'm gonna try to find the most fun like silly myth to get straight into. Yeah, I'm with good to get started on you search for next year. You don't have to start right away. You can take your time. I'm not worried. Um, so what, yeah, is there anything else? That you want to to talk about um in terms of Sparta and what you learned or whatever. I mean, this has already been a chill episode, so we also don't need to but want to give you that space. It's fair. Um No, man, I just like you know what, I was like, I loved Smarta going into it, and I was like, how am I going to feel about them coming out of it? I still love them, man, Yeah, I just I just see them as so much more ridiculous than I first originally thought, which is what I hope, Like, you know, I hope people take from it. Is like, first of all, don't take everything so you know, don't take it all too seriously. It can be fun a bit. Some things are not fun. There was seeing how much. Yeah, there are some things that you know aren't fun. And you know, like learning, here's the thing. Learning is fun. If you learned something and it changed the way you viewed the thing before, don't be disappointed. Be happy because now you get to take joins it in a different way. And isn't that lovely and wonderful? Because I would never have looked at them and been like, man, these idiots stumbled into so many wonderful things their whole rain. It's like it's just like it's a level of genius that's only like you didn't do it. Like yeah, it's like it's not quite genius, but it's something fascinating, divine genius. Like it's just like getting an even more credit. But it's just like white Place, White time maybe too. Like that's and it's a good PR teams, man, wow, very good PR teams. And you know, it's just it's fun. I love it. Ancient ancient Greece is fun. You like it. I like it just a little bit, just a touch. Yeah, I'm a kind of a fan, just on a scale of one to ten, at least six. I'm a broadly I think, like vaguely interested, you know, in ancient Greece, I would say I'm interested enough. Yeah, my starry hoping I forgot the true there. This is a free and loose episode. It's also thankfully like my good way of like getting back into talking to other humans, because I'm realizing as I say this that next week I've talked to Natalie Haynes. So I'm oh my god, yeah she wasn't really one um. In any case, listeners, let's keep all this in u in nor of this thanks to MICHAELA, who just screeched at the news she knows I was recording this. I'm not sure why she's as quite as surprised. I don't think it was. I didn't know it was next week and knew it was coming, but I didn't know one of his. Yeah, just just wave at her for me. She doesn't know who I am. I will make that her. Thank you MICHAELA for joining me to talk wild spartan ridiculousness. Um, do you want to tell my listeners? Do you want them to follow you anywhere? Or do you want to stay You're not secret now? But okay, great, here's the thing I'll say. If you try to follow me on Instagram because my account was private, I will delete the good I wish I had won private years ago. Yeah, well you can. You can. You can forcefully have people and follow you. I'm also I have Sequela. Okay, well this is like I'm like, you can follow me on Twitter? Like that's fine, Okayally I'll like tweet something I don't. I don't pay attention to the internet. Is it is it just Pithia want to be or is there Okay, I wasn't sure there was like underscores or yeah, so wonderful. Well, we'll put it in the episodes description as always, Well, thank you so much for doing this. This is very fun. Your first appearance on the show, you wonderful nerds. If you hung around through that entire conversation, then I absolutely love you. Needless to say, we lacked in a structure, but it was fun, and I figured you all just mightn't be interested in how we've been doing this series, how MICHAELA and I worked together now that I'm no longer an entirely one woman operation. Michaela is also the face behind all the lovely promo videos that I post on social media, and, as you hear me say after every episode, she also runs the YouTube, which we're working to build up so that it contains captions of the podcast for greater accessibility and well, other than the very fascinating conversations I'll be having about the poet, I'll come in next week. This Sparta series is officially over. I cannot quite believe how much I have learned about Sparta, and also about what I learned about planning a research series of this podcast, which was primarily don't do it in January Live. Honestly, what on earth were you thinking. It's the worst possible month to have to do something that is so much harder than a regular job. But yeah, if you caught in the episode, or if I kept it in because I'm now I'm questioning myself. But we will probably be covering the Bronze Age, next Bronze Age, and it's so called collapse. That will be the next big special research series and it will be a good one. Not for a long while though, because back to mythology we go. Mythology and comedy. Stay tuned. Before long I will be diving into our third ever Aristophanes play. Let's Talk About My Saby is written and produced by Me Live Albert MICHAELI. Smith. As you just heard Her and all her Glory is the hermes to my Olympians and handles so many podcasts related things, from running the YouTube, to creating promotional images and videos, to editing and in the case of Sparta, Holy God's all the research. The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeart Media. Help me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology and the Ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron where you will get bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon dot com slash smith Baby, or click the link in this episode's description. Thank you all for listening and for coming along for this wild and wonderful series on ancient Sparta. I am live and I love this ship.