Battle of the Bastards: Achilles v Odysseus w/ Hermes Michaela

Published Dec 17, 2024, 2:01 PM

In a special, rambley holiday episode, Liv and Michaela look at who was worst Achilles or Odysseus?

CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.

Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions.

Hi, Hello, Welcome.

This is Let's talk about Miss Baby, and I am your host live, who is doing this in front of MICHAELA for the first time ever, and therefore I'm going to rush through it because it's weird to the listeners at home. We are this is a fun, absurd holiday episode. I almost said Halloween, which is an incredib great indicator of where my mind is at. This is a holiday episode. Mikayla and I are recording together where well, we are mostly just going to rant and ramble at you, and we're pretty excited about it. We're pretty excited about it. But it is the first time I have I am recording an introduction whilst she is on the call with me, and that's because I don't want to do additional work after this. Today we are here with what is now the second annual Battle of the Bastards. Mikayla made a face. You're right, I'm not sure I did it last year. I think it was the year before. It is the second annual. Regardless of that being not an accurate phrasing. We are here for a Battle of the Bastards because a couple of years ago I did just a silly, little thing where I compared theseus and Jason to determine who was the biggest piece of shit and or the most useless. That's Theseus and Jason, respect I was a respectably respectfully respectively. Also, this episode is going to have minimal editing, so we're just going to do our best in the recording. And uh, you all just get to hear what I sound like when I am still getting used to speaking into a microphone for the first time in a few months. But we Today's is not about Theseus and Jason though, No, no, no, this one was Mikaela's idea. She said, live you did this thing a couple of years ago. Wouldn't this be fun? But what if it was Achilles versus Odysseus and God's Was that a great idea? Not least because we both have these problematic fhaves who we are devoted to while simultaneously acknowledging that they are pieces of human garbage in the ancient sources for varied.

Reasons, slightly problematic the problems.

Yeah, there are problematic phaves. Everyone's got to have one. I love Odyssey despite the fact that he was a murderous piece of human garbage. Who caused more destruction than most other characters in Greek mythology combined. And MICHAELA loves Achilles even though he was a whiny little bitch sometimes.

Yeah, truly, he truly was, and I adore it, not least because of you know, Barbrito Achilles.

We get that Burrito Achilles.

No Burrito Achilles. Oh, yes, exactly.

I will try to post Burrito Achilles on the Instagram to when this episode comes out, mckilly, Yeah, text me a photo so that I can pop it onto him, fun little graphic of Burrito Achilles. Maybe we could also will also post one of my favorite Achilles pieces of pottery, which is the one where he's like bandaging himself up and his like tiny little dick. It's just like in the forefront of the frame for.

No goods together he's and it's just like.

The penis, it's just right there.

And you know what, he wasn't shy and and he you know, he can't even be excused to have a thinking man's penis because the man was not He was not a thinking man.

So my god, did he try, but it hurt his little brain.

You know. Not everyone is cut out for intellectualism, and that's okay. He was Achilles, he's our himbo, he's our crown. Oh my god, Achilles is kronk.

He would be the one making spinach puffs.

All right, So how do we want to do this? We're just gonna like each defend both of I mean, I like the idea of us being able to talk simultaneously about why we love them and why their pieces of garbage all in one. So, yeah, do you you would? Did you like to begin by speaking on I mean Achilles? Yeah, tell me why he is both well yeah, but also like, this is the battle of the bastard, so we can also be like, who is the bigger bastard? So easily, well, we'll see, we'll see. That comes down to me. So tell me why you think Odysseus is the biggest bastard.

I have many qualms with Odysseus. Mostly I am appalled by his ability to beason away his own faults and the things he does wrong in life.

And because Odysseus does nothing wrong, I don't know what to tell you.

I don't know.

There's something about you know, he's gone for twenty okay, so you know, my whole.

Thing is he is such a bad father.

It's I literally will not deny that at all. But I also think that, like Telemachus is such a little piece of shit that I don't.

Really but I have all that much.

But I think that's Odysseus's fault because he.

Was not fairly. But at the same time, it also is simultaneously entirely Telemachus's fault because his father had literally no influence on his personality. But means he got there all himself, like, yes, feeling sorry for himself because his dad was not there. But ultimately, but he has the thing right.

So Odysseus, first of all, he's like, I'm gonna get out of this war.

I'm gonna do so by endangering my child, who was to pretend to be mad and go towards him. Now I under a book, No, okay, well they put it in front of him. This is me being mistaken. He stops for the love of the child.

Fine, okay, yeah, my besake.

Okay. But then he leaves and he could have only been gone for ten years.

Yeah okay, But then he has to he just has to be He gets out of his little mess, and as he's leaving, he just has to be like ha ha, twas I Odysseus who messed why he could, he didn't need to take the credit.

He didn't.

And then because where we got he was ten years ten years, and then he showed us up. And the first time his son is the first memory his son has of him, it's him dick out killing people. That's a bad parent, that's his faulder. He's like, oh boy, I'm so sad I don't have a dad. And suddenly Odysseus is there like.

Ha ha, just unclothes himself and sorts a mass murder. That's wild.

Yeah, it's too much. I'm trying to find I'm trying to find some rebuttals, but they're not coming to me.

Unfortunately. That is exactly what he did.

And I stand.

You know, Penelope absolutely knew was Odysseus like pretending to be some old man and he's all like the bed and blah blah blah. And she's like mm hmm, okay, you know that's so funny. And in her head she's just like does he think he's tricking me?

Truly? Like does this man think I'm stupid? And the answer is probably Enellope deserved better.

Here, Why do you think Achilles? What's what's what's wrong with Achilles?

Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I mean I guess I find him annoying? Is is not a good enough argument? Yours was so prepared? U No, I mean the thing about Achilles, I guess you know, you know he really Oh gosh, it's you know, he's just annoying. That's not enough.

It's accurate though, actually yeah, right, Like I.

Just think he just I just wish I wanted him to be better. I guess I think you know, he no Achilles to me, it's just you know, he I'm struggling. I'm struggling with because I think I could. I think I think that I could, you know, if I was a capitalist or a if I was if I was a fan of war or thought that it was in any way a valiant endeavor or something worthwhile of humanity's time, then I think I could make a great argument, which is I think what I was prepared for my argument to be. But then I keep you know, then I my brain thinks about it, and I'm like, well, Achilles was bad because he didn't think of the greater good of all of the Greeks at the war, and as soon as he was, you know, bothered by by the actions of Agamemnon, he just like went on a little petulant strike. And then I think, well, actually, no, that's because Achilles didn't actually see Achilles wasn't. Compared to all the other Greeks, I think Achilles was maybe the least taken in by the okay and propaganda like the equivalent, because in my head now, the a Cans are just the West. Sorry guys, but that's true, both literally and figuratively. They are the West versus the East. But no, like, you know, if if they were actually doing something that was like worthwhile and Achilles holding them up, you know, was causing a problem to that, then I could argue that he was a bastard. But I think what I'm doing is just agreeing with you immediately and making them show not the episode's not even gonna be twelve minutes, I guess, because I'm just like, well, you're right, Achilles was better. He's annoying, and he was definitely a bit of like a petulant child a lot of the time, and he went crying to mom a lot. I think that Thedis could have raised a stronger young man. I think that she, uh you know, was so mom Yeah, I mean very Yeah, she's a mother of a boy. But yeah, no, it's it's yeah, it's funny talking about it like that, because generally I do appreciate that. Achilles was like, this war is stupid. Everything is stupid. I'm only here because I am forced to be, and because I'm like so good at this that you have to have me. But really he was like, I don't really respect what you guys are doing, so I don't give a shit. And now do I love Achilles.

I'm actually gonna now flip the switch of I love Achilles. I'll give you a reason.

I think it's easier to think of him his his whole, Like I don't love what's happening.

It's not necessarily the war.

No, it's not for the greater good. I'm not gonna pretend that he's doing that because he's like a good guy. It's because he's like this is annoying for me personal, And.

Yes, he had he had the prophecy.

Basically, you know, you go, you die young and everyone remembers you, or you live to old age and.

No one will know you.

It's not in the Iliad.

I don't remember.

I don't think it is. And I only say that because I've always been really curious and I don't know offhand where that is, but I know it well, so I'm not questioning you. I'm just curious about it.

But he had a choice, I think is here's why Achilles is the problem.

I can tell you why is the problem. Don't worry.

And he did choose to go off and fight, and then when he stopped, it wasn't necessarily because he was like, oh, this isn't I don't agree with what's happening. It's that he wasn't being given his dues yea and that Agamemmon was taking his his what was it the gab as just I think it was his war prize, which was just a woman.

Yeah, well that's the thing. And now you're getting into that, and I'm like, oh, right, if I forget all of my feels about Western propaganda and Western warmongering, and if I, you know, don't to quate Agamemnon with the US and Israel, then then yeah, I mean the idea that he he he stopped helping all of his fellow Greeks because the woman he had rightfully enslaved, that's in air quotes, was removed from him, like was taken away then Yeah, I mean, like I don't I don't think he has a a great backbone. I don't think that he's particularly you know, beneficial to humankind in that respect.

Hmmm, what do I want to say in defense? I don't know. I think the thing though, is that he sticks to what he knows how to do. Yeah, and I appreciate that about him.

I think Odysseus does the same.

I could say, actually, Odysseus is Athena's little pet rat.

He's he is Athenis.

Well, Achilles is Thenis's little pet rat.

So Achilles is a neo baby.

Unfortunately, some is Odysseus, but less so was It's a stretch people say that he's.

Yeah, I think Odysseas is this like, uh, I find him so interesting because of his mind, which is of course like his whole thing, but like he also I find him he mean, he's my let's maybe I'll defend it in this way, which is that like he is my problematic fave, not because I think he's in any way a good guy, but because I do find it really interesting.

The way that he that he like ends up doing all of the wild shit that he does, Like you know, with with Odysseus, like we get to actually see kind of where you know, quote unquote intelligence can get you. And I say, like, I say it that way because like I you know, he he is incredibly smart, He's incredibly manipulative, and he does not seem to have even a shred of like conscience involved in that, you know, like he is. It's so self serving and it's so just about proving himself to be like the smartest guy in the room and the most interesting guy in the room. Like I mean, I I've I do I maintain I do still love Odysseus, but definitely in the time since you know, I first started calling him my main man, like I have grown in my opinions on him, and I remain I think I love him, but I think my love for him is perhaps like problematically tied with Sean Bean as Odysseus, And.

You know what, I think my love of Achilles is pomatically tied with Brad Pitt. Absolutely, yeah, because if I actually do look at like like I know, for you, like the Odyssey is your favorite of the.

Yeah, which is why I love Odysseus. It's like, not because he was a good guy, but because I fucking love the Odyssey, and I love.

The Iliad personally. It is my favorite.

I've never gotten that from you.

Really, I love it. I think it's.

Really an interesting The first line.

Sing got a sing of the rage of Achilles.

No, no in Greek, Oh my god, give me a moment, Oh my god.

Uh man, and it's on my hand, what's with men? And I editos Ullaman and Himuria.

That's where I walk up.

I get to the terrible Age, which but yeah, no, I love the Iliad because I think it's actually very anti war.

Yeah oh yeah, yeah, I mean is amazing for that.

Yeah, and I think it's a very interesting psychological look psychological but just like, look at human behavior in conflict and looking at both sides, and you are given the good guys and they're not really shown to be wholesale good and and are.

They ever like I'm this is everything that I find to be the most interesting about the Iliad too. So, but do you think that they're really ever suggested to be the good guy in any way or do you think that that is entirely coming from the you know, the development of the like I mean the Iliad as being tied to the ancient Greece. Like. I often think about whether there is kind of any explicit indication that we should be rooting for the Greeks in the Iliad, or whether all of that is coming from our association with it being like a Greek text.

You know.

I haven't thought too much about that, but that that that does bring some like, yeah, that makes sense my brain where it feels like because.

Little think there's every any moment where we're supposed to side with the Greeks, which is what I find to be most interesting about the Iliad.

Though they're kind of like when Achilles fights river, that was fun.

Well, when Achilles sits river, that's pretty bad a us, did you know? And I'm going to say this having looked it up for my novel and then just wanting to make sure I'm actually like right, so I could be wrong.

But.

There's like because I feel like in the Iliad there are sort of interchangeable names for that river, right, it's Commander, but it's also Xanthos, okay, And because I think what I figured it out, or I or what I learned, and again I use this for the novel, so then it kind of sits in a different point in my brain. But that Xanthos is the divine name for the river and Scamandros is the mortal name for the river, which I think is just like a whole other level of interesting.

Yeah, I love that.

I trust to thank you.

More, Iliad.

I think the thing is, I don't know necessarily if you can wholesale say Greeks. So the he ands are the good guys, the children's are the bad guys. Yeah, because I think a lot of the times what we are shown is that these are two different camps, and in each camp there are good and bad people, yeah, and who have good and bad motives. And I find that utterly fascinating. No, you have in such diversity and it's not it's not so black and white, And people who take it as black and white, I'm like, you've missed the whole.

That's the thing. Yeah, exactly, Like there is no point where we are given a reason to to think one is better than the other. And I think that, yeah, any kind of any kind of desire to do that is coming out of either you know, like later things from the Western world that are getting tied to it. But also just this this very specifically North American opinion on war, and this idea that like we always know best, and you know, if the West wants to bomb the shit out of a country, they should say thank you Syria. Uh like, like, yay for them for Syria, except are they actually for you? Are they where they? Just?

Now?

Is the West trying to fucking inflict all new things?

I'm so tired of.

Anyway. I remember in the Iliad when the West went over and tried to colonize but ended up just fully destroying an Eastern civilization for no other reason than they felt like it.

I hate to say that, but I think you're confusing the Iliad with the Odyssey.

Or is it that it's both and everything the West has ever done since Well, that's the thing. I mean, as soon as I said colonize that ties closer with the Odyssey the Iliad, the Iliad rings true still, because you know, the the West does love to just go and absolutely just decimate, just decimate entire cultures and countries in the Middle East and then be like, oh, we don't atually want to stay here though, like this is Arabland. We don't want it. We just want to like kill everyone who doesn't agree with us and car call everyone else. Anyone tries to fight against us is terrorists for sure. Yeah, like, oh, I'm sorry, you're resisting tyranny. That sounds an awful lot like terrorism to me. I'm having ideas for a future series of the show that we should talk about off mic.

I will say there to pull it back to where we were talking about, how we we we know that these characters aren't great, but we still love them and if there is any good characters, this is not about This episode is not about him.

I will defend Achilles, even though I know he has problems.

But how great is Nestor?

How great is Antilochus his son?

That is the hero, That is the hero.

He died.

He died young, so we didn't actually have to see him go you know, crazy and do some stupid ship.

He gets to be young and good for Attorney because he does.

I mean, and though Nestor really, you know, of all people, he has got a lot of Nuancestor's a good father, except in the Odyssey when he's all like, hey, remember that better son to all those other kids.

I had a very good conversation with a professor about that, and she makes some interesting points. Where is that a cultural thing to do with morning? I think it was something like that. Where because this is this just how you remember somebody? And so would his sons have act? Would his other sons have actually been like, oh my god, we're never going to live up to Antilochus?

Or is this to him? Yeah?

But beyond that, Uh yeah, Antilo is a good guy, nestor so tired.

Let the old man be tired.

Truly, the man is seen enough, he said to be on the battle.

Oh but okay, what more can I say to you?

Don't need to. I mean, I can talk about why he's a musician.

You're like, actually, what a chilly's not the bad I'm like, let me come in.

And I mean, yeah, I think if we I mean, I walked into this knowing Odysseus would win. I'll be honest about that. Odysseus is a bigger piece of ship. Oh yeah, no, not not it. It's a battle of the bastards, MICHAELA. He is the biggest bastard. I because I also think similarly to Antilochus when you phrase it that way, that Achilles didn't have the chance to go on to be a bigger bastard, like I think, I mean, I think maybe if we look to his son, if we look at the actions of Neptolemus, yeah, right, like we get we get kind of like I wonder, you know about speculating whether if given the opportunity, Achilles would have turned out more like that or like where where is that mentality coming from in Neoptolemus because he's such a piece of shit? Again, No, mom is the woman on that island on Sciros where he was hiding out because yeah, because he pretended to be a girl but also still managed to sleep with her and have a baby.

It's just yeah with her?

Are you or someone you know on Hinge in the Lower Mainland?

We love it. I need to get that Sam stamp.

Yeah.

So wait so then his okay, so his mom they both both.

M I know, there's not a lot. Yeah, like the thing about me ptolomis generally is that also, you know? Like I mean, admittedly I haven't read the play that features him. I would like to very much.

That's is that?

No, No, the Fall of Troy. I mean I've I've read that that's the epic from the Roman period and bye, I have read that. I mean I read it on the podcast for everyone to hear. But nepht. Thomas is heavily in that for sure, But I'm talking so earlier sources. He's in and Rama Key, And I always forget that that's the plot of Androma Key. It's after the she is has literally been living in his kingdom as his like oh crime, yeah, and they have like a kid together, and then he has Hermione as his new wife, and like that's what the play is about. So anyway, we have to cover that soon.

I've had plans to like put a whole like spreadsheet together of all the plays we've done and have yet to do.

Oh jeez, yeah, yeah, no, fair story of everything. Yeah no, it's so Neoptolemus. We don't have a ton of like actually like or any kind of archaic or let alone pre archaic sources on him as a character, because everything you know is lost. So yeah, he's heavily in the Fall of Troy, where he's a piece of garbage. And again I haven't read Androma Kye. But at the same time, like so like every other play like we have to. We have to assume where we have to understand andromaky as reception. So like we still we still don't know what Polamus was imagined as you know, in the ancient world or in that you know, the earliest form of the ancient world that we were talking about with Aliad. So I wonder, but like, yeah, like if given the chance, like just how terrible would Achilles have been? Certainly his reaction to Patrickulus's death is not a great indicator for like how he would have handled like further issues in his life.

You know, I hoping that would come up, But.

Really you thought maybe that in a discussion about Achilles we might not mention the time he went absolutely fucking wild and started killing everybody, including arguably the most the least problematic, and most moral character in the entire epic.

I'm just I'm just writing something down because for some reason, you know, me and my obsession with looking at fathers and sons and myths, I never thought of Achilles and me too.

That's like the worst most terrifying terror show of a terror I know, but I still think it is they never met, yeah's never met, Like for all I mean you're all your complaints about Odysseus as a father, Achilles never even met Thomas.

Yeah, but then, on that hand, just then has to live up to this idealized image of who.

Oh yeah, oh yeah, that that kid was set up for failure.

Why can't I spell his name right now? I don't care.

I guess Achilles' kid.

That one that one guy.

Huh yeah said something and then no, but no, no, you said something about yeah what I mean what what? Maybe this is really the battle of the bastards with Thomas versus himself, but like Macus, yeah, well, I mean, god, they're both obnoxious in different ways.

Again, Nebaccus is obnoxious in the way that you know he Well, I guess.

They both want to live up to their fathers.

Yeah yeah, no, they were both men.

Well they were Telemachus. Sucks at it.

Okay, you know what, Actually, maybe this is a more interesting like way to take this conversation. But like what, yeah, but no, neop Tholomas versus Telemachus as like the most broken sons from the Greek side of the Trojan War.

Like.

Right, but like for real, like also, they they should have been a similar age, which as I'm saying that that makes absolutely no sense because Telemachus is like twenty when Odysseus gets back, but.

That but it just he would have been like ten. Yeah, how is yeah enough?

Yeah, because Neoptolemus was born when Achilles was hiding out on that island, which presumably was only for a year or two, so he would have been born around the same time as Telemachus. But then he would have been ye had ten when he had to come help them in the war, which doesn't make any sense. You know, It's almost like the oral tradition was not trying to figure out chronologically accurate, just like the first dates.

Also, so.

Something interesting because this also makes me think of you know, like the suns or it was because I was talking with the professor a bone thing but I'm not going to go into too much detail about. But we were talking about Odysseus and Telemachus and I was having my issues with them, and then she was because.

We're both great guys who did awesome things.

Yeah, And then she was telling me about how Telemachus is often held in contrast to arrestees and how Agamemnon, Clytemnestra, and Orestes are actually the opposite of Odysseus, Penelope and Telemachus, you know, like the anti thelopy Agamemnon is the anti Odysseus.

But Arrestes is the better son.

He is wontress.

He is what Telemachus should be. What he is doing is what Telemachus should be striving for. Yeah, that is interesting.

So if we're looking at sons Telemachus the Ptolomas, let's throw arrestis in there because that poor born.

Yeah, well, yeah, he was set up for failure. If anyone was, and he did his best.

He didn't ye.

Would have been forgiving his mother instead of killing her. But whatever, But then.

His father's shades would have come from He was regardless.

He was doomed, as was a woman's shade is a little less threatening.

Well, that's just because the Athenians came in and they were like, call Athena and let's do a trial.

No, he's gucci, he's fine. That's that, that's reception. That's well, but that's just doomed.

Oh yeah, no, that's such a great But that's such a great reminder about the ways that every time we have to look at a play for any kind of source on the mythology. We have to we have to remember the ways in which it's reception because yeah, like the most famous forms of arrestees story are inextricably tied with Athenian democracy. So if you separate that and you think, oh, actually, arrest is a story is like many hundreds of years older than than than Athenian democracy, than like what, you know, what would that have actually looked like? He would have just been hounded by the furies forever, Like.

I think that's I think that's exactly what it is.

I think I feel it's doomed regardless, but that's you know, the curse coming into play, Like that's just that family. But at this point, I think then at that at that point, we could think of that as more like.

The you know, the sun is now like the the innocent at.

The far end of his family's crimes, where the Sun is could have done really good in life, could have done good things, but because of the things his forbears did, he is the one who pays the price for their big problems. Versus looking at tell Marcus and Odysseus. Odysseus does all these wonderful things, and now his son is living in his shadow in a.

Way that he can never reach it.

Yeah.

And then Neoptolomus, well, he just overshadows his father in a the most horrifying way.

If your shadow is blood, then Neoptolemus overshadows his father.

Look, Achilles was good at one thing, and he he really committed to it.

Yeah, and Palmas is like, my dad was good at this one thing. If I'm ever going to live up to him, I have to be even better at this one thing. And it just turns out, aw shucks, this one thing was killing people.

Yeah.

And then so the next question would be if there's susficitions when Neoptolabus kills Estina.

I don't. I think it's always to see this, I know, I know, off a wall, He's like, you know.

What, look at this little babe, off you go.

So but here, if we're talking reception, if we're going that deep, all, as far as I recall, all forms of the story of who throws Astianax off the Walls of Troy are coming from a considerably later period.

I'm trying to think, as me.

Wrong very well, could be wrong.

Now.

This is how we both have not done preparationship.

That's the fun of this. This is a holiday episode, you guys, This is both us going from our obsessive memories of both of these characters and these texts.

I still think it's kind of a problem if he threw a baby off a wall, just saying.

I mean, I would like to be put on the record and saying I'm not saying it's a good thing he threw the baby off the wall. I am, you know, famously not a fan of children, but I would like to be clear that I don't ever condone throwing them off the wall.

I don't mind children as long as I can give them back to the parents when they start screaming.

Well, that's where you're a better woman than me.

I'll give them.

Never never once gives now. Yeah, I know you're lucky, but I'm saying mine never doesn't even give me the desire to pick one up in the first place.

I don't know.

There's like a certain age of babies where they're like just like stuffies more than and they don't like them younger.

I like, you don't talk.

I only I don't think that children are away from me. I don't think the children are worth my time until they can have a conversation with me when I said that, and I'm I'm keeping it, I said, and I.

Believe they say weird ship, although honestly the Blessed.

Like the video of a kid being weird. But I don't want to interact.

Kids do say the funniest ship, though I'm not.

America's funniest home videos was for yes or No. Wait, there's a whole There was a whole show. That joke was sitting there waiting for me, and it was kids say the darnedest things. I wonder what that reference was for a very select view of my listeners, because most of you were too young probably to remember what that was.

I feel like it's winging a bell for me. I'm not even that much younger than you. No, not the same generation.

I got funniest video Mikaela. Six years does a lot, though.

Is it six years?

Yeah? You're Oh, I know you're thirty and I'm thirty six.

I thought you were younger.

I know because it's because my skin. I do like you. I absolutely it's funny because it's not true, but I know I don't.

Mid winter skin doesn't have to look good.

I also just moved to the land of the dry I'm trying to jack up to my lungs are not there yet.

No, oh my god, Okay, let's get back.

So let's just return with this us laughing and saying garbage. And Odysseus was worse to the listeners. We did just cut out a bit and now we're wrapping it up. But I honestly, you please.

Osseus is like ancient Columbus.

I was literally just about to be like, I didn't get a chance to say how problematic he was. No, yeah, I think I mean, I love I love the Odyssey so much as this as this like piece of art. Yeah, and like as this as this piece like and so and I do love Odysseus, but again, I think that is so deeply tied to Sean Bean, as Odysseus, and also those like the remnants though, the remnants of when I learned to love these texts because the Greeks were the most brilliant and we we love everything they did, and of course they were right and the West and blah blah blah blah blah. Right, so there's like a little bit of tie there. But yeah, if I look at the Odyssey, you know now and I've always I've always been I would I would like to think, like pretty open minded about that stuff. But now over the last couple of years, just with the warmongering of the West, like I just no longer can see anything the way I used to. And the Odyssey is it's just wild. It is Odysseus is Columbus. But if Columbus just set everything on fire and then was like, all right, I actually not gonna stay. You guys, you can actually you can just try to fix what I just did. I actually have somewhere to.

Be, so, like, I have a wife and child at home.

Like, I don't want to defend Columbus, but at least the guy fucking stayed, you know, he committed, admitted to his atrocities to the.

Chagrin of my people. Oh the one time I didn't want someone to commit to the bit.

I mean, Columbus didn't come to Canada.

If that's a consolation, still a dumb ass pigeon.

You're direct. People are more affected by the Britain.

To be fair, to be fair, there was no border till y'all came. This is actually my I could Yeah, my people, we straddled the border back and forth and actually loved.

We love to go for a little wander up and down. We had all the way into.

Those big ass lakes. Yeah, all of those big ass lakes. You knew what to do with them.

With an island with a lake on it, with an island on it, I.

Mean I drove around Lake Superior for the first time and now I have a full blown respect for the lakes.

Has fucking waves, like waves did.

I say videos Like oh my god. We were there during like the wildest wind. The Lake Superior looked wilder than Dallas Road, which is like the wildest beaches on Vancouver Island, and that's like legit, the sea and we were driving by it being like, holy shit, this is like what you see on Dallas after an earthquake in Asia. And we go down to the Dallas Road and be like, I would like to see the waves, and that was Lake Superior.

Yeah, yeah, no, it was Lake Sorry.

The wild they are, yeah, just they have they have done damage, like they've done damage in the way the sea has done damage.

Yeah yeah, I mean they're equivalent, especially to an ancient people and like to the indigenous people of this region like that, it's equivalent to the sea, no doubt. Yeah, well, what a very deeply North American way to wrap this Upody in a good way, I would that's I'm saying North America now in a good way because we're talking about the people who were here before, before the Odysseus of modern colonization came through.

What Columbus?

What did you say?

I called him pigeon? Is? Well, it means like dub a pigeon, so I just call him a pigeon.

That's I mean, I respect that, but I think it might be unkind to pigeons a pivot. Pigeons deserve more respect than Columbus.

But I think it's funny.

Oh no, anyway, well, listeners, Odysseus winds absolutely he is I mean again, arguably worse than Columbus. And I think that this to me the last time, and what oh yeah, yeah yeah, well if if I mean, Columbus is obviously worth worse than Achilles. Achilles wasn't doing any colonizing. He just he just really had strong emotions and he used his sword to get them across his fear more likely to give.

One defense to Achilles, And no, we're wrapping this up, but to one last defense he does like he does.

I just the first book and he's all like, I'm gonna kill this man.

And Athene is like, maybe, don't muse your words, don't be rational, and he's like, all right, I can do that.

Listen, hear your wino, bitch face, coward. You know what he's still on.

Boy, he's he knows insistent. Yeah, he knows himself.

He's consistent, and I appreciate that about him.

Well, this has been too much fun, not least because now we're gonna have to chat offline about a whole ass series about the Odyssey as colonialist propaganda in a good way though, like in a fun way. Listeners, It'll be fun, I promise. And also, well, we have to look, we have to look closer at the Iliad as a piece of anti war.

Yeah.

Sure, I really want to do that. This is if there was ever a time to do that, it's now. But until then, I'm going to read the credits aloud with Mikayla sitting here for the first time ever. And again that's a weird share a note to the listeners, because I've caught it afterwards every time. But when we're doing this live, I'm not going to say her old last name.

Why are you still saying my old last.

But I catch it and then I say it because it comes out of me immediately, and then.

I catch It's so fair.

Let's talk about this baby is written and produced by me Live Albert Mikaela Pango wishes the harms to my Olympians, the producer who's producing the shit out of this. Listen to the podcast on Spotify, an Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Sign up for our newsletter, which I didn't remember to send out last month, but which I will again because we have literally so much going on. Like, honestly, there's there's a lot happening. It's I feel like I've seemed very quiet lately, but that's because that my brain is so full of secrets. Okay, gru I am live and I love this ship. MICHAELA. What's your sign off again?

I'm MICHAELA and I'm here too.

I forgot that's what it was, but it was that. I mean, we need to keep it forever now