Augustus Demands Respect, Rome’s Foundation Myths w/ The Partial Historians

Published Aug 1, 2023, 7:00 AM

Liv is joined by the Partial Historians who share the myths surrounding the foundation of Rome. Liv also shares the Athenian foundational myth. This episode was formerly Patreon exclusive! Find the Partial Historians here or wherever you're listening to this podcast. Help keep LTAMB going by subscribing to Liv's Patreon for bonus content!

CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.

Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions.

Oh Hi, hello there, and welcome. This is let's talk about Metz Baby, and I am that host, that woman who calls herself a Greek and Roman mythology podcast, even though she doesn't really care for Rome that much and basically never talks about it save for OVID Live Live. I'm the host. I also ramble and desperately prefer Greece. But not this month. No, this month, Augustus demands respect. So Rome here we are. We're going to talk about Rome. You see, it's August. Do you know why August is called August. It's one of the more obvious months, that's for sure, because yes, you guessed it. August is named for none other than Augustus Octavian, the first Emperor of Rome, he who, along with his beloved Julius Caesar. I actually don't mean it that way. I just had to say beloved like that Reht conned himself into the mythology of Aeneus, that famed man of Troy, who I guess wasn't so famed before Rome. And since August is named for mister Rome himself, Octavian or again Augustus, the name he took when he became emperor we're going to dedicate the month two episodes surrounding Rome, some of its mythology, and even my very first Roman play. And you can all thank my wonderful assistant producer MICHAELA for this idea. And by the way, you know she's also my assistant producer. Now, yeah, Michaela. But the best part about this little Roman month that we're going to enjoy together is that we're starting it out with the real professionals, not me because again Greece. No, we're starting with the women who actually know Rome, the always lovely partial historians, doctor Red and doctor g Now I've had these two wonderful women on the show before. We've talked to Cleopatra, and then we've talked to the first Kings of Rome because they wrote a book called Rex. But a while back, we actually started recording a couple of bonus Patreon episodes just now and then we'll be doing some more kind of infrequent but we are comparing mythologies of Rome and Greece. In them. It's been really fun, just these casual retellings of myths to see how they compare between the two cultures. And well, this is one of those episodes, so if you are one of my wonderful patrons already, you might have already heard this episode. But given we're devoting August two stories of Rome, you will want to refresh yourself on the foundation myths of that little region to the west. And by little region, I mean, you know, one of the most enormous ancient empires. But hey, they're not Greece, so we've got to keep them in their place. Doctor Rad and Doctor g came to tell me all about the foundation myths of Rome, which frankly are for once far more intricate and detailed than Greece. But there's a good reason for that. The founding myth of Rome, or myths rather, because there are multiple is the founding of the Roman world, entirely the Roman Republican, then later the Empire, whereas Greece wasn't really any kind of unified place until much later. So instead, on my end, I told the partial historians the founding myth of Athens, which well is considerably shorter and simpler. And well, when I'm not scripted, I play a little fast and loose with my retellings. All to say, I've kept in my own section that afterwards retail is the founding myth of Athens as it appeared in the original Patreon episode, but today is really about what the Partial Historians had to share with me about Rome, which fortunately is most of the episode. But his mind was really short. And again because Rome's founding mythology. Wow, if you thought that it was just the a Neid like kind of like I did, No, I mean I knew there.

Was more of God.

There's so much more. There are layers, generations of mythos. It's kind of wild and I'm just so thrilled that I had the Partials to share it with me and now with you all, from their Trojan origins to boys raised by a wolf and brothers who kill one another or just the one too well, seriously disturbing stuff because it's Rome. This is episode two twenty two. Augustus demands respect Rome's foundation myths with the Partial Historians.

Welcome to a special collaborative episode with the Partial Historians featuring Dr Rad.

And Dr Ju. Hello, and today we.

Are joined by fellow Lady Podsquad member.

Live Albert, who just got distracted by her cat coming in and screaming, you're gonna we can keep all this in lipin. But yes, live Albert, let's talk with Sabie.

No worries at all.

So today we are going to have another casual chat about the myths of our two favorite civilizations, and today the theme is foundations.

Exactly.

So we're going to tell you about the story of Rome live and makes no much your sends for us to go first, but we're going to go in there. Yeah, because that's how Rome does things. We just take things that belong to Greece. Really, Rob's number one for realm.

Although this story I don't know if it's I mean, it might have some Greek connections.

I'll let you decide that's true, that's true.

I mean, if we go, let's maybe maybe she should do like the slightly longer version, not as in, you're taking up your time in the slightly Greek and duct version, the Greek and up version.

Oh well, in that case, it all begins with the Battle of Troy.

But not many people have heard about it, so we really have to go to detail about this.

Yeah, yeah, really like under the radar.

Yeah it is not many people were there and people certainly don't talk about it. But there was this guy Anias and he decided to pick up his old father and carry him on his back and made his way to Italy via Phoenicia.

What did he do with his wife?

That's a great question, I mean, I mean the real thing is that he left Idoh and then Didoh killed herself. So that's terrible being a queen of Carthage, that would be not the singer who's sang that really a sad song on love?

Actually, but you do you know that she thanks? Sorry now I'm going to go on to tangent. Did you know she's sang songs related to that Dido though she like wrote songs for that story.

Therapist would make so much sense.

Real, I've found them and I named two different a near episodes after Dido lyrics.

Nice.

We're gonna have to search out these songs now because she does sing about sad things, so it would make sense for her to be sad queen abandoned.

By her trojan lover. Yeah.

So the ball of dicks that he is leaves and heads into Italy and you know, starts a family has a great time whatever.

Generations pas Because there's a problem with chronology and timeline, there's an awkward gap.

My favorite things where it's like, Okay, so when Nius goes and he does so much and it leaves, it's like supposed to be this whole big founding story, and then it's like and then like four hundred years later in a really different location, actually.

Pretty much, yeah, somebody from that line.

I love the fact that, Yeah, I love the fact that the Romans couldn't even like smooth out those bumps. They couldn't think of a way to explain it apart from look, there were a lot of kids and grandkids after this.

You just have to accept that fact.

I mean, the whole point of Ania's coming to Italy was that he actually probably could have stayed with Dido in Carthage except for the fact that he got a bit of a reminder that, you know, you have a destiny.

Marles swoops down AND's like, wait, oit you're in the wrong location. Don't start something here. You won't be able to finish it exactly. Oh man, but I like this chicken everything exactly. That's why he has to choose his destiny.

Anyway.

Generations pass, Aeneas is long dead and the Greek connection is mostly severed by that point, and then all of a sudden We're in a place called Elba Longa.

Which is near ish room but not room.

Yeah, close, but not quite. It's to the south, it's in the hills. It's where the popes go for their summer getaways. So it's a nice location, lovely spot. And anyway, there's these guy called Numator and he's in charge of this place. He's the king and his brother Emulius, is a bit jealous and decides to push him out of power, but doesn't push him out of power so much as not to the extent of killing him. So Numator lives. But he's been pushed out and Mullius starts his rule and it's not really a great start for him because he's obviously highly jealous of his brother to start with, but also his brother continues to live and so it's problematic. So he's trying to figure out what to do with all of the relations. It's like, what do I do with these nieces and nephews who are potentially an issue?

Yeah, and there's nieces.

They're the big threat because they could bear a sun if he doesn't do something about it quick smart.

So best thing to do is to place the niece Raya Sylvia into the cold of Vesta because they have to be virgins. So there's no way to have a baby in that scenario. So that solves that problem exactly.

If a man tells you to cross those legs and not have a baby, you cannot have a baby.

Yeah, it's like a magical rule.

Yeah, yeah for God.

Unfortunately, whilst that might apply to mere mortals, Raya Sylvia out and about one day and she is spotted by the god Mars.

Also a terrible, terrible individual.

Yeah, like most male Greek gods, he has an issue with keeping it in his non existent pants.

Not aware of foundry week.

He's actually not that bad.

Wow, just goes to show what the Greeks know about it. So the Romans took that one and made it worse.

Was like, Aries, he's too chill. We're gonna rename it Mars. We're gonna make him awful.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so something really seriously tragic happens in that Raya Sylvia is raped by this god.

And of course in these scenarios in the ancient world, it's never something that you can just forget about.

You always get pregnant.

Yeah, every single time. Yeah, every time, it's.

I like to think of it as being like an episode of The Gilmore Girls, where anybody who has sex accidentally falls pregnant.

I just I mean, I suppose I've always put it down to whatever makes a god to god, do not.

Miss he shoots, he scores.

Yeah, yeah, sorry, it is awful.

It is awful. Yeah.

So basically, she obviously would probably prefer to put it in the past, forget it never happened, or whatever, but she can't because she's pregnant. And gradually people start to become aware that, you know what, I don't think that is a beach ball under that garment that you're wearing, young lady.

Wait a minute.

Yeah, she does go to her mom and she's like, what do I do? I'm pretty sure I'm preggers.

What how do I I mean the cold of vesta.

Light snag helps snags, And her mom's like, just pretend you're ill, and that's her mother's advice, and I don't worry. Just you know, retreat to a chamber and say you can't come out to perform professional duties and it's going to be fine.

We'll figure it out. However, notice, yeah, people notice.

I mean, if it was a time of COVID, nobody would notice. Everyone would be like, yep, luckdown, let'sought you should be doing.

Yeah, two years later be like what are these?

Yeah?

But obviously at some point this is going to come to a resolution of she can't just hide it forever. And one way or another, the pregnancy is discovered, she gives birth, and she gives birth.

To twin boys, and even greater threat to Emullius's rule even anticipated.

Yeah, this is terrible.

So he immediately orders for those two boys to be placed and drowned in the river.

I'm seeing things here. I'm like, this is the story I didn't actually know. So my brain is just slowly making these connections of the to the things that I do now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I'm gonna come. It's a very mozesy like story.

But these babies are placed in some sort of busket device and they are placed in the river.

But the river.

Possibly was flooding at the time, and I think the soldiers who were placed in charge of this task maybe also weren't super enthusiastic to be watering babies. Yeah that's kind of nice exactly, So they didn't put them like right in the center.

They didn't like throw them into the river or something.

They kind of just put them around the edge, and as the floodwaters received whilst the babies have been carried along a little bit, they're actually eventually left on dry and therefore safe ground.

Only to be discovered by a she wolf. I mean, if I could howl, I would, but have no idea how. Thank you, thank you doctor.

I'm always happy to be the loud one. Yeah, okay, So that she comes along, and again, probably not a coincidence, because there are connections between this type of animal and the god Mars. So maybe this is his alimony, his way of looking after the kids. She doesn't eat them, which is a surprise, yeah one, But she also feeds them, which is the second surprise.

Ye, and that's how they get their nourishment in the beginning.

Breast is the pictures, Yeah exactly, yes, exactly. Now, of course, she wolf might be able to provide you with breast milk for a certain amount of time, and presumably would also provide you with protection. But babies need other things live.

But you do.

Yeah, I don't have one, but I think I know enough.

Yeah. Us either that, we have heard, we've seen things.

Stories have been told yeah.

And luckily, eventually a local shepherd comes along named Faustulus. Now this is where there may be some interesting overlaps between the story of the she will find the story of Fausolus, who eventually will come across the babies and be like, hey, I think.

I'll take these babies home.

And that is that his wife may have been a bit of a party girl in her past, or maybe even a sex worker of some description. We're not really sure, but certainly the term to refer to a sh wolf may actually it's very similar to the Latin for a woman of loose character, So maybe it was she that actually helped to look after them and gave them nourishment, which were.

Not actually a wolf.

I know, very disappointing.

We have to pop bubbles sometimes, and I know that everyone has been thinking up at this point in time that a wolf was actually responsible for saving these winds, But there you go.

That's the kind of reality that you get on the partial historians.

Disappointing anyway, So they don't know their backstory obviously, and so again time passes where we don't know much about their youth or anything like that, apart from the fact that they're very strong physical specimens, as you would imagine being the children of Mars.

Yeah, so they grow up, they become warriors, they learn about.

Yeah time, right, absolute best friends, nothing yeah in them.

They've only got each other, you know.

You know, they live with this shepherd and it's nice and all, but you know, they get a bit like into the politics of the area, and so everybody knows that Emullius got to that throne by nefarious means, and so these two get involved, Romulus and Remus, they.

Have names, notable names.

These two get involved in some of the gorilla warfare going on in the local region to try and depose Emullius and put Numator back on the throne of Alba Longa.

And they seem to be bitter, like a leading a bit of a gang in a sense, like a teenage gang, you know. So they're like here come, they're jets.

Wandering through the forest and you never know what you're going to come across exactly, and they're actually quite successful. Numatal gets he's thrown back, and Mullius gets chucked out, and then Romulus and Remus realize that they've got this whole band of hooligans that follow them place, but they don't really have anywhere where it's okay for them to live because if they stay in Elba Longa, they're going to sort of interfere with Mumator's right to rule.

So they're like, we need to find our own place.

And by this stage of the story as well, the revelation of their true identity has come about. You know, of course, naturally, when you see twin boys as Pneumator, you're like, wait a second, you're almost the exact age of the babies that would have been exposed about I don't know, eighteen years ago and my daughter gave birth.

I think that you might be my grandchildren. Yeah, but they wanted to pray as Sylvia's eyes. Yeah.

They want independence. They want independence. So they end up, you know, having a wander around and being like, hmm, I wonder where we could potentially set up our shop because we can, let you know, our grandfather have his own space and we'll have our own space.

And they eventually choose a hill or a couple of hills next to a malaria infested marsh.

They're like, that'll do real estate. Location, location location. They knew this, They knew this back in ancient room.

There's nobody here. It's going to be great, Yeah, Hilaria, it's good. Yeah.

And they're like, now we just need to figure out exactly where we put the foundation stone, Like where do we actually go?

All right?

This is at what moment we need to consult the gods, We need to look for a sign. And the Romans, at least later in their history, seem to have a really strong connection with the Etruscan people. And this is where the Etruscan stuff starts to get woven into the story, because the method that Romulus and Remus use in order to figure out where they should place the city exactly is to read the signs of the birds, is to use the auspices. So you divide up the sky into a whole bunch of like quadrants, and then you sort of look at how things move and you make some judgment calls, and it's all very technical.

And it sounds wild equal and confusing.

Yeah, is it's very confusing.

And Remus sees six vultures or eagles and he's like, Aha, that's the sign it should be here. And Romulus reveals himself to be a little bit of a douchebag at this point because he sees Remus running across from where Remus has been sitting on another hill. Come across to his hill and Remus is like, I've seen six, ROMs is like amazing, I've seen twelve and his gang on his heill immediately back him up even though he's seen nothing.

Yeah, and so so that ends up being the place where they're going to found the city of Rome. Now, the issue is about the argument that arises between these twin brothers. There are actually lots of different versions of exactly what happens next. Probably the famous one is that they just get into a fight because they can't decide, you know, whether they actually are going to go ahead and found the city in this location or not. And in that fight, Romulus kills Remus. However, there are other versions, like they start, you know, laying down city walls, and Remiss is like jumping backwards and forwards over Romulus's wall, and like.

Moss respectfully being like this is a stupid wall and you're a liar and.

This is not where the city should be. Yeah, it's just like.

Wow, this is what I think of your wall, and Romelis is like oh yeah, oh yeah, this is what you think about wall, this is about give you, and that's how they end up getting into a fight that ends in death. But either way, generally speaking, Remus ends up dead.

I mean, that's the salient fact of this story. So these two have been together for a very long time. They're twins, they come from the same womb, they have the same father, and in this moment, Romulus does the dirty and ends up getting to live absolutely and so he ends up being the one to maybe give his name to this place.

Or maybe not, because there are lots of different theories about why Rome becomes Rome and Romulus. Let's face it, it's probably a totally fictional character, and so the name might have been to something that was given to him when the Romans decided to make up this story about themselves. But the next part is the part that's always fasted me the most in this myth, and that is Romulus looks around and he's like, well, I have a small gang, but I'd rather have a large gang, because otherwise it's not going to really be a city, And so he makes Rome essentially a place of asylum.

M Yeah, So he sort of puts out the call if you're not accepted anywhere else if you don't have a place to live, if your previous city has thrown.

You out for crime. Boy, do I have a deal for you.

Yeah, I'm go and live on this hill over here next to this Malaria invested marsh exactly, just.

Like runaway slaves or people who have committed crimes, or people who just asocial don't fit into the community, made some bad.

Choices in their life, start a new identity. This is the place for you, and that is the foundation of Rome. Yeah.

So it's really weird because we're very certainly because of the archaeology that Rome existed hundreds of years before seven hundred and fifty three BCE when the Romans say this all happened, and most historians agree that Rome elson Rimus are completely fictional characters, and so at some point, as some in some way, the Romans decided to tell this story that the foundation of their city is based on murder between family members, and that the founding members of their city are the rejects that nobody else wanted.

It's so interesting to be because it's just so incredibly different from the way that the Greeks tell myths. Yes, like for all people like to say that Rome stole everything from the Greeks, basically everything to do with their mythology. Suggests not that at all, because they are not They don't resemble one another. It's so interesting, but it is so interesting to be like, well, we're going to completely make up a mythical founding, so we really wanted to make us look good, So let's go ahead and go with Fratricide and just like all of the rejects of all around, and that'll be Rome. Now do you know, like, does the Eneas bit come at the same time or is that tacked on later?

It seems to be tacked on later. And obviously Virgil is the most famous example of his tacking on, and we think the story predates Virgil, but it's also not that common as well. It's kind of like we've got these competing foundation stories and this.

Sound like competing, which, yeah, we want to wedge the Trojan war in like just like it doesn't really fit, but we're just gonna like jam it in.

And they want the Venus of it, all right, they want the connection to the goddess Venus, and yeah.

Well, and also they have to explain how Greek stuff ends up in Italy because it's been there for a long time. So the Greek influence in the south is present, real and massive, and Romans and Italians understand that. They're like, they're different people. Where did they come from? So they've got to have a narrative for that as well. So something impressive would be good.

And also if you think about when Virgil is obviously crafting, you need as I'm sure you're where because you spend a long time with that. She's obviously yeah, it's obviously also telling the story of a man that has an affair with Okay, I'm going to use her completely anachronistic term, but essentially an African queen and does the right thing, leaves her and goes and does his duty by the state. I'm using flesh rabbits here because that's super anachronistic, but it is kind of a bit of a also a bit of a dig at marc Antony, being like, see, if you did the right thing, you should have just had your way with Cleopatra and then on your way you don't hang around and become more you know, involved with her.

That's not how this works, you know.

I love that all of it is just like a commentary on people they're mad at yes, exactly, like it's yeah, it's so interesting to me. And I mean the Greek one, like I'm also choosing to discuss yours further because the Greek one is so short by comparison to and I say Greek. I was going to go with Athn because obviously the other big difference with Greece is that, like it was not a unified place and it just happens to be that. The longest you know, origin story that we have, which is still not very long at all, it Athens, but it is kind of similar in in the way of it's there's like another piece kind of tact one later and then it's it still has like the kind of the same kind of general idea, but but a lot I don't.

Know, Well, please tell tell us.

Why don't I tell you what I'm talking about? So the founding of Athens is so very simple and so much more connected to the gods. It's very much just like a there. It's kind of like there's already a city here, but what are we going to name it? And who are going to be its first kings kind of thing, or there's going to be a city here. There's no real determination as to why that's a particularly good spot. I think they just see a nice hill and they're like, we liked to put Acropolis is Acropoli on uh and and so like let's do it here. But the real issue comes into play of which god is going to be the patron god or goddess of this new city. They you know, they think it's going to be a big one, so they've got to get that sorted right away. And so in this case, there's going to be a contest. Obviously, you have to make the gods compete against one another, and Poseidon is always competing to name cities, and he never wins. He does win, like maybe a couple of times, but he mostly loses. And so Poseidon goes up against Athena and is it.

Because he says sea God, and it's like, you can't have a city, mate, it's not going to work.

You have the ocean.

I mean, you know he would go ahead and yell at you about horses, right, like, well, cities need horses, okay, And I'm also the god of horses. But I think it's just that Poseidon, to me, is like he is the most what is the word I want, like out of control, just like monstrous. He is the most over the top, like can't rain him in. He's the most violent and destructive god, both in terms of like what he is the god of he's a god of the sea and earthquakes. He's destructive as hell, but also like personality wise, he you know, is just he's the most violent of gods. When he assaults a woman, it's horrific. When Zeus does it, it's because he's one of those guys that thinks she wanted it, you know, It's like it's just a completely different dynamic. And so I think he's just like, no, what kind of city would be dedicated to Poseidon and it would end up to be horrifying like he is, Which is a spoiler about what I'm about to explain. It never wins, But so they go up against each other and they there's a bunch of different variations on like what the deal is, but basically they have either one person who's going to be the judge. It might be this guy named Key Crops, or it might be all the gods, or it's a combination and Key Cops makes the gods do it for him. Whatever it is Posidon and Athena go up against one each other, one another. I can't speak today any talking beside Athena go up against one another, and they each have to like say or pledge what they are going to provide to this city. And you know, whoever has the better thing to provide is going to be the winner. And so Poseidon comes in first, and he's like boom, he hits his trident on the earth on the top of the acropolis and out comes a salt water spring, super practical salt water. And then in some cases he also gives them a horse just for just measure. Yes, the first horse, so presumably that from it they can make more horses. But you would think there two would be more necessary.

It would be nice to have the second horse for the reason, Yes exactly.

But he's just like, look, horses will exist. If you pick me, you will have this salt water spring on the top of the acropolis, Aren't I incredible? And then Athena comes in and she's like, you're an idiot. And also I'm going to give you the olive wood or olive tree. But an olive tree doesn't just provide you with a nice tree with shade. It'll give you the fruit, and from the fruit you can make oil and have the food, and then it'll give you the wood afterwards. And oh my god, look how practical. I am so much better than Poseidon. And so obviously everyone saw that Poseidon in theory, you know, like horses are good. If he had done fresh water, like, I don't know if he has control over freshwater. Maybe he just doesn't. But also I'm curious and I don't know the answer to this of like because there's a spring up on the acropolis or there, you know, was in ancient times that they accredited as this thing, and same with an olive tree, and I how could there physically be a saltwater spring on the acropolis is my question. Maybe it's possible, I don't know. Science.

I think it would be if it was drawing upon like mineral salt, as it was part of the flow.

Okay, I think it wouldn't be like ocean salty. It would just like have a saltiness that they would be like, well, this is the ocean.

Yeah, kind of like that reminds me of that salty bit over there.

Not as salty, but definitely.

Salty, definitely the same thing. Okay, cool, same god. Yeah, that's interesting. Well, so basically Athena still wins because obviously she does, and there Key Crops becomes the first king and he also has a snake for his bottom half, which somehow is not like a relevant point, it's a fact about him. And so these like early gods of early kings of Athens are just half snake, which I find interesting, and it's also fragmentary or told by much later people that it's often like what was the point? Did this get added later?

Who?

What is going on here? And it's so interesting because he is this first king snake body guy, but then there are like other competing stories for who gets to be these early kings and also have a snake body? You know. One of the most disturbing, and it's a late addition in terms of what survives is this idea that some of the first people of Athens were you know, autocthons and how they were grown from the earth is that Athena had called upon Hephaistus to make her some stuff for this new city, and Heffeistus came and according to you know, these surviving sources, which again I think that like pseudo Polydorus might be one of the earliest ones. Like it's very late, and it's basically like, oh, Heffistas just got super turned on by being asked to help Athena make some weapons, and he came after her. But you know, Athena is like a very good virgin. She would never so instead he just like ejaculates and it hits her leg and she brushes it off and it lands on the ground and then yeah, your faces are accurate there it lands on the ground, and then from it, Ericthonius is born and he's one of the first gods who's also snaky uncertain.

I was gonna say, I feel like this the euphemism at play here. It's like you're telling me the king has the bottom half is all snake all right.

I'm also just disturbed by the amount of stories in Greek mythology which involve just like random scenen, you know, just being just being flicked off or tossed away or hitting something.

Landing in the sea after you know, castrated off of a god exactly.

It's like, I mean, I guess I didn't have cheap socks, but come on.

People, truly, and I just love the way where it's like somehow this story came about, but its main purpose is to say, like, okay, Athenians are you know, native to the earth. They are grown of that earth. But also they want to be children of Athena and Hefeistus is also a patron god of Athens, just not the more important one, and so they want to be children of these two important patron gods of their city. But also Athena is an avowed virgin, so they can't ever be like the actual mother, so they have to go up with this story that like makes them connected to both these gods in the most bizarre and gross way. And it's just like, I mean, the thing about Athens is that it came about so late in the grand scheme of like early Greece, so so much of its mythology is kind of like Techton, but it's also the place where we have the most information. And because then they you know, this is all the origins of Athens and that's way back in the day, and then they have some mythology attached to how they then got to Theseus, who they also count as their founder. But he kind of they say founds, you know, sometimes they say found something they're an early form of democracy. He's the last king and he doesn't you know, he makes it for the people after him. But he you know, he's a good king. But we also gave him this story where he's an absolute monster of a human for the entire time. But here he's this great last king of Athens before we gave it back to the people, And there's so many interesting things attached to it. But also it's so like Athens has got to be one of those more attached together, you know, mythologies. But at the same time, it is still so not it's still so different from Rome's, like you can tell the intentions behind Romes, whereas Athens is kind of like, I don't know, we just kind of want to seem cool, you know, like what are we going.

To do with these stories?

And is I mean, my first question I suppose is is theseus ever depicted as having a snake bottom?

No, he's like supposed to be so many generations later that the snakes are gone. Like there's only like two or three snake kings. There's key crops and then there's there's two competing kings where either there are two kings, one named Derek, Thonius and one named Erectheus or it's the same guy, and sometimes he's got a different name. It's like there's so there's not it's not clear on how many lines of snake kings there were, but there are at least two, maybe three. And then it seems like the snakiness is gone. There isn't really an explanation, it's just it's great. And then there's like, you know, there's incredible imagery of these half snake people, and I just ancient Greek mythology is so bizarre in that way where it's like, why did why do you have half? They're not like any other half, you know, like groups in mythology Centaurs are you know, angry and bad for the most part. The minotaur is obviously meant to be dangerous all these different half people or divine in some way, you know, but these two snake kings of Athens are just kind of there.

They're all right, yeah, don't worry about those guys. They got to warm up before they can do anything today. So it's fine, you know.

Well, anythink Athens too, like they just had to make themselves so ancient because they also wanted to connect themselves with the Trojan War in a lot of ways right where they're not really in the Iliad, like they're not as old or they weren't as powerful enough back then to have actually really made it into many versions of the story. They're no Sparta or all this. So it's interesting to watch them also try to make themselves feel very relevant.

So I guess we could say commonalities. There's a lot of weirdness in these stories. There's definitely some disturbing elements to these stories.

Indeed, well there's gods involved in both cases.

The assaults or attempted assault.

Very true, very true.

But yeah, that's always a thing that has stood out to me about Rome, and it's something that I feel like speaks to what Rome later became as well, This idea that the Romans presumably had this opportunity to make themselves, you know, bord of the soil or have like really deep ties to the area of Rome or something like that, and instead they chose to make themselves up of people from the surrounding area. And of course, if you tack on, if you go a little bit further into Romulus's reign, and you tack on as well the fact that there's the Rape of the Sabines episode where presumably most of the people that joined Rommelos at first were men. I think it was actually specifically an asylum for men that he established. And then when they look around and go, wait a second, it's like the two hosses. Yeah, we've only got one hoss. Yeah, this city isn't gonna last we don't get some women around. And so there's that whole episode where they arrange to abduct and marry women from the surrounding area, specifically the Sabines, it would seem, and that's how they get and according to the mythological.

Yeah, literally how they get women period.

Yeah.

So yeah, basically, Romulus Romula sends out envoys to the surrounding people and they're all like, please, you guys are so rough around the edges. You're like a bunch of thugs and criminals and rejects. Yeah, I want to marry my daughter to you, or you know, they're not into it. And so instead Ramis is like, fine, if you won't give them to me and you look down on me, I'll.

Just steal them.

So yeah, when every respectable city in the local area sort of declines, this incredibly apparently generous offer. He then says, well, we're having a really important religious festival.

Do you want to Actually, I think it's to poseidon, isn't it. Well, I hope not. I have a feeling that I have a feeling that it is.

We're gonna have an important festival and you're all invited, and people come out of like curiosity, being like what does a city of thugs look like?

You know, like I want to take a look at that.

And that's the mistake that people make, yes, thinking that going to that festival is going to be okay because it's under a religious sort of ages, but it's not Romulus, and the Romans break religious protocol and still a lot of women.

Yeah.

And then of course, once the women have been stolen, whilst their families are angry and there's a lot of doing and throwing about, you know, how to handle this situation, I think the underlying message although it does seem as though the places they were taken from do want them back, but I feel like from the women's point of view, they also seem to either have been seduced into the idea that the Romans love them that much, or they kind of know that their life has been irrevogably changed by being abducted, given that there is such a premium I'm obviously you know, virginity, impurity and all of that kind of stuff.

So they end up staying and.

They become they do become the mothers of the future generations. And this also ends up being incorporated into a Broadway musical called Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, And there is literally a song called the Southern Women where one of the guys tells his brothers, Hey, this is how we can get some women. We'll just go into the local town and a duck them because it's recorded about Roman history, and it'll work because once we keep them captive, they'll end up falling in love with us and it'll work out. It's a really cheerful song. Not okay, yeah, yeah.

That's horrifying. Yeah, I just I mean, the fact that Rome built their whole mythology around them being awful is like both surprising to me as somebody who knows Greek, and also not surprising at all when I then think about what I know about m.

Yeah, well, I mean, that's exactly it. It seems a weird choice to obviously have fracture side at the heart of your foundation story. But then when you to the period where the Romans are having those serious civil wars and all of that kind of stuff, you're like, well, maybe it's not so crazy. This is the story he shows to tell about himself.

Yeah, you can see where it's like, oh, it conveys our strength. We are willing to do the hard thing to like, you know, do what needs to be done or whatever.

Wow.

And then I love that Aneas is so tacked on because he's like as once he's obnoxious and awful, he's like, objectively one of the least problematic parts, it seems to me.

Yes, in most respects. Yes, yeah, we're like, oh that guy.

Sorry, real quick question, because I ask this of anyone anytime. Do you know what it was other than I guess just the goddess Mother, Like why Virgil or whoever ended up picking a Nius?

Ah.

So this is possibly one of the theories is that it relates to Caesar, and obviously that line in it that goes back to Venus is very important for Julius Caesar and Virgil is writing under Augustus, so there is a strong sense that the choice is a deliberate one in order to build that divine connection through into Augustus's own line and to really establish that, as you know, his leadership is part of an ongoing tradition of divine providence in association with Roman self.

Mm hmm. I just I find Aneas in the Iliad so interesting because he seems like he's this character that really stands out in so many different ways. And then in the Iliad, he doesn't, you know, like Venus or like Gaphrodite saves him. She's he's very explicitly her son. He is so connected to Achilles in that way of like they're both sons of goddesses. They're the only sons of goddesses. Otherwise it's like always the sons of men of gods. All these different things that make him stand out, like make him really so much like Achilles and just so interesting, and then in the Iliad he is like not actually interesting, and then he goes on. They pick him, you know, to be this Venus connection, which is perfect. But to me, I'm like, well, then why is he in the Iliod? Like that there's some missing piece from Greece that like explains why Aneas is so special and I want to know what it is. There's like a lot I just swear.

Oh well, I mean that's just it, isn't it.

There's so much of that epic cycle missing or there's bound to be a thousand other versions that will probably never know anything about, and maybe one of them has the key.

That's the thing. There's something there, there's something that makes Anya special.

You need to find a kesha for pyri.

Ough could you imagine it.

Would be amazing?

Well, thank you so much for joining us for this mini myth episode Live.

Thank you. These are so fun, it's great.

Absolutely, we'll definitely we'll have to think of another theme for another one in a couple of months.

Yes, Ugh, Nerds, Nords Nerds, thank you so much for listening to this episode this month. We've got lots of more Rome to come. We're gonna be looking at their mother Goddess, who absolutely fascinates me. Where We're gonna be looking at where the gods do and don't differ from their Greek counterparts or Roman gods that are entirely Roman. Roman stories that are entirely Roman when I can find them, because I'm much better at research and Greece. But I'm gonna do my best. We are going to look at how the Roman tragedian Seneca saw our girl Medeia. Obviously, that's the bit I'm most excited about because madea I've heard it's far more like visceral and violent even than my Beloveduribides cannot wait. We do love Madaya here.

Well.

Thank you to the Partial Historians for not only doing that Patreon episode with me back in the day, but for being happy for me to share it all with you on the regular podcast feed now. I thought it was just the perfect introduction, especially because Rome's foundation myths are They're really something else. They just the the formation and the way that these stories survive isn't anything like Greece. And for that and other reasons, because I much I know Greece better, I could not have possibly done a justice. And as always, doctor Ratten, doctor g just rocked it because those ladies know Rome. And speaking of make sure you subscribe to their well Roman history podcast, the Partial Historians, because if you are ever thinking that my show is lacking in Roman content, they are the podcast you've been looking for. Let's not go a bits baby, as written and produced by me Live Albert Or in this case, The Partial Historians. Mikayla Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians, and like I mentioned up top, is now the assistant producer of the show. What she's doing isn't actually changing. I just realized there's a much better and appropriate title that I could give her. The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeartMedia. Help me continue bringing you the world of greeg mythology and the Ancient Mediterranean by becoming a Patreon patron, where you'll get access to bonus episodes and more, including this and other episodes with the Partial Historians that will stay Patreon exclusive. So visit patreon dot com, slash mits Baby, or click the link in this episode's description. Thank you all. You're all the best. Rome is interesting sometimes. I guess it helps when I have other people to tell me how interesting it is. Thank you, doctor Ratten, doctor g You're the best. I am liv and I I love this shit.