Oh hi, Hello, they're welcome. This is let's talk about mits baby, and I am your host, she who absolutely loves Greek tragedy, like it is seriously one of the best things the world has ever given us, even when it's not written by yourribdes, which is really saying something. I'm so utterly thrilled that I decided to handle this play in such detail, like it's so rewarding, and it's such an interesting play and a story, not least because of how the world has taken to it, how it's view by some like how popular it is amongst people who aren't traditionally invested in Greek tragedy or mythology, let alone all the wild bullshit that Freud spewed about it. Gods, there is just so much to say. So let's not waste any more time with me rambling about how fun it is. Let's just dive right back in. But first quick trigger warning. Yeah, as this story quite famously, if horribly does feature suicide and some generally like self inflicted maiming. It's pretty famous. You know it where we last left the city of Thebes, and it's Tiranos, it's King Oedipus. He was well, really struggling and kind of being an asshole. Thebes has been ravaged by a plague and they've sought the guidance of the oracle on how to save the city from it. It was revealed that the murderer of their former king, Elias, Jocasta's first husband before she married Oedipus, is living in the city and that that's the cause of the plague. The famed seer Tyresius was brought in and very cryptically accused Oedipus of being that murderer. He didn't take that well, but the more things have been revealed, the more he's worried that maybe he did kill Lias, if unintentionally. See. Oedipus was from Corinth, the son of the king and queen there, but when he heard an oracle that he was destined to kill his father and marry his mother, he fled the city and found himself at a crossroads where a road rage incident caused him to kill everyone in the offending party. And it turns out maybe one of them was Thebes's king whoops. But Jocasta, Thebes's queen and Oedipus's wife, is firmly in the column of everything. Everything is fine because oracles have already been proven false by the death of Lias. See he'd been told that he was destined to be killed by his son, but when Jocastick gave birth to their only son, he had the baby exposed in the mountains, with the child's feet pinned together so he couldn't escape. Yeah, it was seriously fucked up, and the plague glasses over this fact as if it's just like any old thing that happened, such as the world of great tragedy and mythology. Regardless, because this baby didn't live, Jocasta is confident that prophecies aren't shit. So Edipus shouldn't be so worried about what the oracle said about the plague and the possibility that he's the murderer of Lias. Except I mean, it's all very coincidental if the man he killed at the exact same spot where Lias died at around the same time wasn't him. But it's fine. There was a sole survivor of that attack, and they've sent for him there waiting on his arrival. Now. Oh and one extra piece of info. The way that Edipus became Tyranos King of Thebes was that after his little road rage incident, he came upon the Sphinx, a monster that had been terrorizing Thebes. He was able to answer her riddle, something no one else could do. He defeated her. Because of that and Thebes being out one king, he took over as a Tyrano's a tyrant, a king who seized power rather than one who was born into it. While they wait for this survivor, though, Oedipus hides in the palace trying to calm himself down, and Jocasta waits outside when a messenger arrives from Corinth looking for the tyrant king Oedipus. This is episode two thirteen, and it all goes up in flames. Sophocleses Oedipus Tyrano's Part three. The messenger from Corinth arrives looking for Oedipus. It's just Jocasta and the chorus on the stage now, But the chorus tells the messenger quote, this is his house, and he himself is inside, and here's his wife and mother of his children. Okay, I added that pause. How could I not? Why are you here? Jocasta asks the messenger. After some pleasantries are exchanged. What brings you to thebes? I come from Corinth, he tells her, And there the people of the city intend to make Oedipus. They are tyrant king. Why is that? Jocasta asks, quote, is old Polybus no longer in power? She's referring to Oedipus's father in Corinth, or who he told her was his father, the king. The messenger tells her quote death has him in his house. Jocasta registers that something is really up here, and a dead king is kind of important, so she sends a servant inside to get Edipus right away. Then she calls out to the gods more than anyone before her, recalling that her poor husband has spent so long avoiding his home in Corinth so that he didn't kill his own father like the oracle suggested, and now his father has died and Oedipus didn't have anything to do with it. She is once again taking this news as evidence that prophecies aren't shit. Before long, Oedipus joins her, and when he asks, she tells him that she sent for him because this messenger is here with news, sad news that his father, Polybus has died. The messenger confirms this, and then when Oedipus seeks further details on how it happened, the messenger tells him that he simply died of his old age. It was very natural. At this Oedipus is just relieved. He's sad about his father, certainly, but more than anything, he's relieved because this absolutely, unequivocally confirms that the prophecy doesn't matter, that it never came true. He was never able to kill his father, and now that his father's died of nice natural causes, Oedipus doesn't have to worry about fulfilling that awful prophecy. What a relief, How comforting? Ah life is good for Oedipus, I told you so, Joe Casta basically says, though kinder still she's right. Prophecies aren't shit. You don't have to worry about anything now, Oedipus, His wife tells him, not anything. He asks, don't I still need to worry about lying with my mother? That was still part of the prophecy, And Jocasta, his wife, gives him a speech about not living in fear. How it doesn't help anyone chance rules life. One can't know anything before it happens. Life is random. Quote you two, why dread marrying your mother? Many before in dreams as well have lain with their It's the man to whom all this means nothing, who gets along most easily. Still, Jocasta can't reassure him completely, regardless of what she said, because Oedipus's mother is still alive in Corinth. He's still worried about the possibility of that bit of the prophecy coming true. And I just want to point out for now how just how concerned he is with this. He is horrified at the idea of lying with his mother, of having sex with her. He is actively fearing it. He's actively avoiding it at all costs. It is consuming him. Are you listening, Freud? The messenger listens while Jocasta and Oedipus discuss all of this, their fears and whether or not they're really anything to be feared at this point, and many asks what woman they're speaking of with such concern mar O pay Oedipus answers, the one of the late king Polybus. Why are you so concerned? The messenger asks, and so Oedipus tells him about the prophecy that he was told so many years ago, decades even. He tells the messenger that the prophecy determined that he was faded to quote lie with my mother and take the blood of my own father on my hands. He adds that that's why he's been gone from Corinth all this time, even though he misses his parents so much. The messenger replies, only, quote, that's what kept you far from Corinth. Of course, Oedopus confirms he didn't want to kill his father, let alone lie with his mother. Ah. Well, the messenger says, how about I alleviate these fears of yours. That's why I came here, actually to gain favor in Corinth by bringing you back. But edip is horrified. But he can't go back to Corinth with his mother still there, not when he knows what could await him if he does, to which the messenger says, quote, son, you clearly don't know what you're doing. They discuss Oedipus's fears now, the the reason he's been worried about fulfilling the prophecy. How that's what's kept him far from Corinth. But you shouldn't fear that, the messenger says, it's not justified. And when an Oedipus asks why, like, how could that possibly be that it's not justified? The messenger just says, quote, because Pollybus was no kin of yours. Of course. Oedipus just finds himself even more confused. Now what are you talking about? He presses, was Polybus not my father? No? The messenger tells him no more than I am. And when pressed further, because obviously he can't stop talking now, the messenger goes on to explain that Marripey and Pollybus were childless for so long they weren't able to have one for themselves, and that's why, when you, Oedipus, were found in the mountains of Kytheron, the couple was so eager to love you as their own, to true you as their own, true son. The messenger knows all of this, he tells Oedipus, because he was actually the very same person who found Oedipus there on Mount Kitheron when he was just a tiny baby. He was a shepherd. Then he explains it was he who found Oedipus there with those wounds to his ankles, with those pins in his feet, the same damaged feet that gave Oedipus his name. See there are actually two possible etymologies for Oedipus's name. One suggests that it could just mean I know, and the other swollen foot. Both, it seems, are quite fitting. But this is where the messenger's knowledge ends. When Oedipus asks him who it was that did these horrible things to him when he was just a baby, the messenger doesn't know, because well, he didn't so much find Oedipus out in the water child, as he was handed the baby by someone else, another shepherd. At this Oedipus asks, quote, who was he? Do you know him? Can you tell me? And the messenger just tells him, quote, I think he was called one of Lias's men. One of Lias's men, that's who brought the poor baby Oedipus with his feet pinned together to the messenger of Corinth. How he ended up with the king and queen there being raised as their son. And with the help of the chorus, they learned that actually that same shepherd, one of Lias's men, is the very same man they're waiting on now, the one who was the sole survivor who witnessed the death of that same Lias, the former King of Thebes. What a lucky fucking coincidence. At this, Oedipus turns to his wife, Joe Caasta for her guidance. Is it possible? He asks that this is the same man, Jocasta, though she's wow, she's not keen to entertain that idea. Quote, what if he is? Ignore it? All this talk all to no purpose. Don't even think of it. That isn't possible now, Joe Caasta. He tells her, with clues like this, it's now impossible that I don't learn the truth about my childhood, my parentage, And Jocasta tells him quote by the gods, if you care for your own life, don't look into this. My sorrows are enough. But don't you worry. Oedipus tries to reassure her even if I find out that I came from someone low born, or even someone enslaved, that won't change anything about your status. He's trying to calm her down. He wants to comfort his wife, the woman that he loves, and she just says, quote, still listen to me, I beg you don't do this. He won't listen, though, even when she continues to beg him not to press it any further, not to keep looking into his history or where he comes from. Eventually she says, quote doomed man, may you never know who you are? And when Oedipus just asks once more for the shepherd to be brought to him so that he can get his answers Joe cast he says just one more line before returning to the palace, quote unhappy. That's all you'll hear from me, no other word in time to come. And with that she's gone distraught, so sad she returns to the palace, and even when the chorus asks Oedipus why his wife left so sad and distraught, he doesn't bother himself with it. He can't see a world in which she isn't just worried about status hers and his and how it might change based on these revelations. He can't imagine any other reason why she should want him to stop looking, to stop asking questions, to stop seeking answers about his parentage, And because of that, he just keeps pressing, despite his wife's warnings, and despite the fact that he was already told very explicitly by Jocasta that the son she had by Lias all those years ago, had had his little feet pinned together before he was left on a nearby mountainside. Aedipus is so wrapped up in himself that he doesn't even register that little but very important fact. So the chorus sings. They sing of prophecy of Mount Kitheron, home and mother to Oedipus. They sing of the favors bestowed on him. They sing to Apollo, hoping he hears them and is pleased. Then they ask questions themselves. They ask aloud, who Oedipus's true mother might be. Maybe a nymph of the mountain. Maybe that could mean Pan or even Apollo was Edipus's true father, or maybe Dionysus, even all of them could have lain with a nymph of Mounttheron. Oedipus joins them in their guess work before he spots the shepherd coming to him. Guided by the servants, Oedipus sent in search for the man that he believes will have all the answers that he's looking for, and even the messenger from Corinth confirms that he is the man that they've been speaking of, the one who gave him the little baby. Oedipus to bring to Corinth, and so Oedipus speaks to this shepherd. The man confirms that he was once owned by Lias, that he was born in the household, not bought, and then he tells Oedipus that yes, he's spent most of his time shepherding on Mount Kitheron. And though at first he doesn't recognize the messenger from Corinth, when Oedipus asks him, the messenger reminds him how they met and how much time they spent together so long ago now and then he remembers it well, though he says so much time has passed. But when the topic turns more directly to whether or not this shepherd remembers giving the messenger an injured baby who'd been left to die on the mountainside, things get a little diceier. The shepherd bites back, quote what's this? What are you getting at? And when the messenger clarifies that Oedipus here is the man who was that child, the shepherd replies, quote, a curse on you? Will you not hold your tongue. He continues to try to avoid this line of questioning. He doesn't want to say anything, doesn't want to talk about it. At all, certainly doesn't want to admit anything, but when Oedipus threatens to hurt him if he doesn't start speaking, he eventually concedes that, yes, he gave this messenger a baby, but he adds that he wishes that he'd died then himself, and if this Oedipus threatens that he'll die now if he doesn't speak, But the man knows that he'll die in even worse death if he does. He keeps trying to avoid the details. He'll admit he gave up the baby, but when pressed as to whose it was, he won't say, and Oedipus just keeps pushing him. Finally, he admits that the child was from the house of Lias, and then, when pushed even further as to whether the baby was born to an enslaved person there or to Lias his own family, he says, quote his yes, the child was his, but she within your wife would best speak of it? How it was? It all comes rushing out now in a series of quickly exchanged words between this shepherd and Oedipus, the truth crashing around him. The baby was Lias and Jocasta's. She was the one who gave the baby to the shepherd to do away with in fear of the prophecy that the baby would kill his father. But it's revealed the shepherd gave the baby to the messenger of Corinth out of pity to be saved from death. But he says to Oedipus, quote, if you are who he says you are, you were born doomed. And so Oedipus, taking this all in, cries out and says, quote, it's all come out too clear light. May I never look on you again. I'm the one born to those I shouldn't have come from, living with those I shouldn't live with, killing those I ought not to have killed with the truth revealed that Oedipus is exactly what he'd feared, That the absolute worst imaginable things have happened all as he attempted to avoid those same things. That not only did he accidentally kill his birth father Lias while trying to flee the same prophecy, but equally accidentally, equally randomly, he found himself in a position not only to have taken the throne of Thebes, but to marry the widowed Jocasta, now revealed to be his own mother. With all of these horrors revealed to oedipth he rushes into the palace, out of his mind with grief and horror. It's just the chorus left on the stage now, the messenger and the shepherd left after Oedipus and the chorus. Is there left to take in everything that's revealed about their king and their queen and their city, all the horrors left out for everyone to see. They sing, Quote generations of mortals, How I reckon your lives equal to nothing, for what what man wins more of happiness than to seem? And having seemed to seem no more? With your fortune yours in mind, yours unhappy? Oedipus, I can call no mortal blessed. They sing of Oedipus and the Sphinx, How his defeat is no longer happy, How it's now steeped in his own horrible fate. They sing, of horrors do any rival those of Oedipus? Quote for you, the same wide harbor lay open as son and husband, fathering children. How could the furrow sown by your father bear you in silence so long? What a harbor? And farming metaphors? When it comes to Jocasta, they sing, of his marriage to Jocasta, now revealed to be unlawful. They sing of the children, four children and born to this couple over so many years, grown children, quote, how I grieve for you above all the dirge pouring from my lips. In truth, You gave me the breath of life, then closed my eyes in death. When they finish, a messenger, though a different man than the one from Corinth, comes out from the palace with news, and it's not good. He starts by just warning the chorus of the pain they're about to endure. So you know it's about to get messy as fuck, as if you know it wasn't already messy as fuck. He goes on elaborating, quote, for neither ister nor the fastest could wash away the stain upon these walls, the evils that hide within, and those that soon will burst into the light, willed not unwilled, self chosen pains which hurt the most to see. Yeah, things inside the palace are bad. When the chorus asks what sorrows this man is going to bestow upon them, he's blunt, quote the swiftest word to say, and understand, She's dead. Jocasta's dead. Who was our Queen. The Queen is dead. The messenger goes on to explain how it happened. After she left the stage, she rushed into the palace in a frenzy. She went straight to her bedroom, the bedroom she shared with her beloved husband, now revealed to be the sun she thought was long dead, practically tortured at Lias's hands. There she called out to Lias, speaking to him of their son and all that's happened, all that's been revealed to her. Then quote she mourned her bed on which she bore a husband from her husband, children from her child. Oof. Fuck, Jocasta, Just I mean, fucking imagine learning something like this when you've lived happily for so long with your loving husband, your big, happy family. Fucking imagine. The messenger goes on to say that he can't say yet how she died, because it was Oedipus who found her and prevented anyone from seeing her. They were watching him, anyway, watching as he frantically raged over what's happened, what he's learned, and as he searched for his wife. Quote that wife, no wife, but a field that had brought forth two harvests, him and his children and then screaming, he wrenched open the double doors to his bedroom, and he found her. He found her hanging in their bedroom, dead, and he pulled her down carefully, quickly, but lovingly. And then he wrenched the pins from her dress and stabbed them into his own eyes, quote, crying out that from now on those eyes would not see him or the evils he had done and suffered, but see in darkness those whom he should not have seen, and not know those he had wanted to know. The messenger goes on after he's finished, describing in detail just how disturbing Oedipus's act was, just what happened to the poor man's eyes, speaking more broadly of what's occurred and the horrors quote, the happiness of old was truly happiness back then. But now and on this day lamentation, disaster, death, shame of all the evils with a name, not one is missing. The chorus asks after Oedipus, is he free of pain now? They're told that in instead, he yells about revealing the true killer of Lias, their former king. He's talking of hurling himself from thebes, exiling himself, cursed as he is. But he says, Oedipus needs help. He needs someone to guide him in his exile. He's not strong or well enough to do it himself, even aside from the fact that he's now blind. And with that, Oedipus returns to the stage, his eyes bloody and destroyed by his own hand. The chorus and Oedipus sing together. He starts quote cloud of darkness, mind, repulsive, unspeakable, invincible, onset, blown on an evil wind. They sing of grief. Oedipus sings of the god Apollo, who brought these evils to him to the city of Thebes, though he makes clear that it was his own hand that determined to take his sight quote for why should I go on? S I who had? When seeing nothing sweet to see? He determined there was nothing else he had to see in this world, not with his life so utterly destroyed, his wife dead. Oedipus speaks of the shepherd who saved him as a baby, wishing that he'd just left him there, that none of this would have happened, and even the chorus confirms that they wished it too. Oedipus continues, if he'd just died then like he should have quote I would not have come as my father's killer or be called by men husband to those that gave me birth. The chorus, not holding back, tells Oedipus that he'd be better off dead than blind, but Oedipus doesn't want to hear it. He knows, and yet if he had died, he knew he would have had to see his father in the underworld, and probably Jocasta too, And then what and since he will remain alive, do they think that the sight of his children is anything he wants to see to witness, since he now knows how they were conceived? And yes, I do think he probably could have brought up his four children at some point before this moment. But the tragedy isn't about them, though their existence only heightens it. Oedipus launches into a long speech, now lamenting all of it, every moment of his life, everything that's happened, how he didn't die on Kytheron as a baby when he could have when he should have. He laments his wife, his mother, his marriage, his children, his father, all of it. He calls to the gods to help him, to hide him away somewhere, to keep him from the world, and then he's joined by Creon. The chorus announces Creon's arrival both for the audience and for the now sightless Oedipus. They tell him that he's here to weigh in on Oedipus's requests, on his desire to be gone, to exile himself, to live far away from everyone, and Creon very kindly says immediately that he isn't there to judge Oedipus or mock him. He isn't there with unkind words after what's come to pass. He's honest. Though he can't have Oedipus out here in public. He is shameful, even if he is also somewhat blameless. It was, after all, all destined to happen, regardless of what anyone did to try to escape their fates. Oedipus and Creon discuss the former's fate. Oedipus wants Creon to exile him, quote, hurl me from the land right now, send me where no man will ever speak to me. Creon agrees, for the most part, he wanted to do that already, but he wanted to speak with the gods first, to seek their guidance. When Oedipus hears this and confirms that Creon will ask the gods. Creon pointedly asks whether Oedipus will trust them if he does, since he didn't before, and look where it's gotten him With this knowledge. In the open, Oedipus turns his concerns to Jocasta. He asks that Creon bury his sister as he sees fit, but to honor her, and then it's back to being about him. He asks that his father's city, this city Thebes, never be asked to shelter him again. May he roam kitheron where he should have died in the first place. Let fate have him now, and for his children, Oedipus tells Creon, quote, you needn't worry about my sons, their men, they'll never lack the means of life, whatever they may be. But my pair of girls, unhappy, pitiful, who never die at a table set apart from mine, but had their share of everything I touched them. You must care for and most of all, let me touch them, let me lament my sorrows. Honestly, I'm kind of obsessed with that line, this kind of confirmation that Oedipus has always treated his daughters with kindness, treated them as equals to himself and the rest of the family. I mean, sure, it's the bare fucking minimum, but in Greek myth it's enormous and says so much about the family that's just been blown apart. They were happy, Oedipus and his wife, who he loved. They were happy. They had their four children, and they treated them with love and affection. They were a real and happy family. And half of that family joins the stage now. Oedipus and Jocasta's two daughters, Antigony and his many creon arranged it. He imagined that Oedipus want to say goodbye to them, would want to show his love after all the horrors that they've gone through alongside him. This affects them just as much after all. So he does say goodbye. Oedipus hugs his daughters and tells them how he loves them. He imagines all the things they'll do without him, without their mother, the festivals and events when they will marry. He thinks of the horrors they'll face now that it's known who their father and mother were to each other. He worries no one will want to marry them, a fate all too severe for women. In the ancient Greek world. He asks that Creon care for them, that he shelter them all he can, and not treat them any differently now that the truth is known. His last line of the speech to his daughters and Creon is quote, but pray for this to live where opportunity allows, and have a better life than the father who begot you. Creon tries to send Oedipus away now, but for all he wants once his exile, He's asked for it all this time. He's now hesitant to give up his daughters. When the time finally comes, he does leave, though in the end and Creon leads his daughters into the palace, leaving the chorus alone on the stage to finish the play. Their last speech is directed at the people of Thebes, calling upon them to look upon the story of Oedipus, the man who so famously saved them all from the sphinx by answering her riddle. Who was so envied for the life he received after that moment, the happy marriage. His place is king, his loving family. Then quote, see what he's come to? What a wave of grim disaster washed over him? A warning to us all bye the coming of that final day, counting no man happy till he has crossed life's boundary free of pain. And then while there's no way to end with anything other than abject tragedy, this isn't Euripides. There's no lightheartedness. It's just dark and awful and horrifying. But while I'm not done having things to say about it, even if the play is over, because there is just so much hiding beneath the surface. The use of the word tyrant tyranos throughout the play, when referring not only to Oedipus as king of Thebes, but also Lias and even Oedipus as potential king of Corinth, is just all so incredibly important, And it's one of those things that if you're not or if you are just watching the play today, you're probably not gonna get it. It's subtle, and without the knowledge about the etymology of tyrant and the history of the term broadly, you're just not going to catch the intricacies. But Oedipus is a tyrant of Thebes, except really he's not. He is because he sees power after defeating the Sphinx, and he did it with the blessing of this city. He wasn't a tyrant in our modern sense. Their king was dead. They thought it was unrelated to it to business arrival, and he defeated this big bad that had been causing them so much trouble. They were more than happy for him to take the throne. And when he did, he met Jocasta. They fell in love. That they love each other seems pretty clear to me, and certainly in the myths beyond this play too. That's where the tragedy is. This couple met after the death of Lias, who we don't really hear much about when it comes to Jocasta, but we can assume that she was an incredibly young bride because she had a child, and he grew up enough to then marry her, and then they had more children, So one can assume that she was a child bride to Lias. He died and she met someone closer to her age if younger, imagine like fourteen, you know, and she falls for him. He's nice and he's heroic, and he's saved her city. They marry, They live happily together long enough to have four children and watch those four children grow. Oh and then one day it just blows up and it doesn't just blow up like any normal relationship could. It's it fucking explodes and just motherings of horror and incest and just the absolute worst imaginable things. Suddenly she finds out that she's fallen in love with a man who it turns out, is the Sun that she thought was long dead, and she realizes long before he does. That's why she tries to make him stop asking questions, as if that will stop the horror. If they don't know, it's like it's not real. She's desperate, just grasping at anything to keep her life from dissolving into nothing but disgusting and horrible revelations. To me, Joe Casta is the tragic figure here. I mean, edip is too sure, but he just he had no idea what was happening, what was going to be revealed. But God's Jocasta slowly realizing now, I know, I made a really big ilbod Oedipus when I first told this story, like about things like he should have realized something was up when he heard that his parents in Corinth weren't his blood relatives, or when he killed a man on the road at the same time as Lias died. There are so many things that, in hindsight, could have saved everyone so much tragedy. But really you can see how it happens this way, Like no one wants to imagine the things that are revealed here. They're just be on the pail. They're too much for one's imagination to come up with. You just you have to deny things like this until it's so obvious that you can't avoid it. As for the tyrant King, though ultimately it isn't entirely true about him, and therein lies the fascination with the word like he's a Tyrannos, but he's also a basilaus he would have gotten the throne through his lineage if everything hadn't happened how it did. Meanwhile, they don't even register that he is called a potential tyrant of Corinth, which is a clear indicator that he's not born of the king, and just he's a little of everything. That's what adds to the dramatic irony alongside literally everything else in this play, like he is just all things at once. Often the assumption about this play is that the tragedy lies in the actual act of accidentally marrying your mother and killing your father and then you know everything that comes from it. But to me, it's the tragedy of finding out that the person you've loved for probably about twenty years, who you've had four grown children with, who you've devoted your life to, is your child or or is your mother. Their relationship is the tragedy, their love suddenly transforming from something beautiful into something horrifying just in the blink of an eye. Oh, nerds, nerds, that ending, my god, dramatic, hardcore fucked ups, seriously dramatic. Is there any wonder this is referred to as the best like the most powerful Greek tragedy, tragedy being the keyword, like gods, it's just something else entirely, and often I think it's really just seen as this story of accidentally incest and how wild that is, like Adip is the motherfucker, but it's it's so much more than that. Also because obviously I've mentioned him a bunch now, but that Freud's stuff about this play really drives me up the wall, like this idea that Oedip is subconsciously wanted to have sex with his mother, Like I mean, aside from the fact that the complex itself is just like weird and gross and so very Freudian. There's just absolutely zero, zero evidence in any ancient source to suggest that he had any way of knowing that she was his mother before he married her. I mean, sure, there's an argument you made that he should have realized earlier in the play, but not in his life. And by the time the play is happening, it's it's a far too late. Everything is decided and it's just about how and when the reveals happen. God's anyway, I love Greek tragedy. Is that is that obvious? This play made me so fascinated by what exists beyond the play, though, so with the Sphinx and Lias and literally anything else surrounding their story. So actually, next week we're gonna look at the Sphinx as a concept and a character, one that is fascinating even just from the perspective, like how widespread the imagery of her is when she only really appears in this story, let alone the fact that like if Egypt had one too, but they're it's pretty different. Anyway, we're gonna talk about that and Lias. There's just enough that we're gonna be a whole lock An episode about it, and then I can't wait. As always. Let's end this with a lovely five star review from one of you amazing listeners. I love you for these They make me so happy. This one made me laugh comes from a user named esme Egg in the UK. Forty three percent increase in brain size since listening. Hi, I just wanted to say this has been the most calming and concise podcast I've ever I've managed to get my claws on, and I feel extremely lucky. Completely agree with your reviews on Antigny. Oh appropriate, I didn't register that when I put it in here anyway. To me, it seems so very counterproductive to isolate her story as one of the most powerful and impactful when considering there is a huge spectrum of boss women in Greek mythology. Feminine rage is not to be underestimated. And then there's like a salute emoji having said that, I would still name a cat after her. Keep at it. You're making lots of nerds very happy. Thank you. That one was seriously fun. Let's tackle Mats Baby is written produced by me Live. Albert Michael Smith is the Hermes my Olympian's God's and Mikaela does everything. She's the best, like, oh my god. Also, when this airs, Michaela's gonna be in Italy on like an archaeological dig, which is the coolest thing ever and I'm so excited for her. Stephanie Foley works to transcribe the podcast for YouTube captions and accessibility. The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeartMedia. Help me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology and the Age of Mediterranean By becoming a patron, we'll get access to bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon dot com slash Met's Baby, or click on the link in this episode's description. Gods, I can read that bit fast. I am live and I mother fucking love this shit. Sorry, Edi Pitt, I had to

Oh hi, Hello, they're welcome. This is let's talk about mits baby, and I am your host, she who absolutely loves Greek tragedy, like it is seriously one of the best things the world has ever given us, even when it's not written by yourribdes, which is really saying something. I'm so utterly thrilled that I decided to handle this play in such detail, like it's so rewarding, and it's such an interesting play and a story, not least because of how the world has taken to it, how it's view by some like how popular it is amongst people who aren't traditionally invested in Greek tragedy or mythology, let alone all the wild bullshit that Freud spewed about it. Gods, there is just so much to say. So let's not waste any more time with me rambling about how fun it is. Let's just dive right back in. But first quick trigger warning. Yeah, as this story quite famously, if horribly does feature suicide and some generally like self inflicted maiming. It's pretty famous. You know it where we last left the city of Thebes, and it's Tiranos, it's King Oedipus. He was well, really struggling and kind of being an asshole. Thebes has been ravaged by a plague and they've sought the guidance of the oracle on how to save the city from it. It was revealed that the murderer of their former king, Elias, Jocasta's first husband before she married Oedipus, is living in the city and that that's the cause of the plague. The famed seer Tyresius was brought in and very cryptically accused Oedipus of being that murderer. He didn't take that well, but the more things have been revealed, the more he's worried that maybe he did kill Lias, if unintentionally. See. Oedipus was from Corinth, the son of the king and queen there, but when he heard an oracle that he was destined to kill his father and marry his mother, he fled the city and found himself at a crossroads where a road rage incident caused him to kill everyone in the offending party. And it turns out maybe one of them was Thebes's king whoops. But Jocasta, Thebes's queen and Oedipus's wife, is firmly in the column of everything. Everything is fine because oracles have already been proven false by the death of Lias. See he'd been told that he was destined to be killed by his son, but when Jocastick gave birth to their only son, he had the baby exposed in the mountains, with the child's feet pinned together so he couldn't escape. Yeah, it was seriously fucked up, and the plague glasses over this fact as if it's just like any old thing that happened, such as the world of great tragedy and mythology. Regardless, because this baby didn't live, Jocasta is confident that prophecies aren't shit. So Edipus shouldn't be so worried about what the oracle said about the plague and the possibility that he's the murderer of Lias. Except I mean, it's all very coincidental if the man he killed at the exact same spot where Lias died at around the same time wasn't him. But it's fine. There was a sole survivor of that attack, and they've sent for him there waiting on his arrival. Now. Oh and one extra piece of info. The way that Edipus became Tyranos King of Thebes was that after his little road rage incident, he came upon the Sphinx, a monster that had been terrorizing Thebes. He was able to answer her riddle, something no one else could do. He defeated her. Because of that and Thebes being out one king, he took over as a Tyrano's a tyrant, a king who seized power rather than one who was born into it. While they wait for this survivor, though, Oedipus hides in the palace trying to calm himself down, and Jocasta waits outside when a messenger arrives from Corinth looking for the tyrant king Oedipus. This is episode two thirteen, and it all goes up in flames. Sophocleses Oedipus Tyrano's Part three. The messenger from Corinth arrives looking for Oedipus. It's just Jocasta and the chorus on the stage now, But the chorus tells the messenger quote, this is his house, and he himself is inside, and here's his wife and mother of his children. Okay, I added that pause. How could I not? Why are you here? Jocasta asks the messenger. After some pleasantries are exchanged. What brings you to thebes? I come from Corinth, he tells her, And there the people of the city intend to make Oedipus. They are tyrant king. Why is that? Jocasta asks, quote, is old Polybus no longer in power? She's referring to Oedipus's father in Corinth, or who he told her was his father, the king. The messenger tells her quote death has him in his house. Jocasta registers that something is really up here, and a dead king is kind of important, so she sends a servant inside to get Edipus right away. Then she calls out to the gods more than anyone before her, recalling that her poor husband has spent so long avoiding his home in Corinth so that he didn't kill his own father like the oracle suggested, and now his father has died and Oedipus didn't have anything to do with it. She is once again taking this news as evidence that prophecies aren't shit. Before long, Oedipus joins her, and when he asks, she tells him that she sent for him because this messenger is here with news, sad news that his father, Polybus has died. The messenger confirms this, and then when Oedipus seeks further details on how it happened, the messenger tells him that he simply died of his old age. It was very natural. At this Oedipus is just relieved. He's sad about his father, certainly, but more than anything, he's relieved because this absolutely, unequivocally confirms that the prophecy doesn't matter, that it never came true. He was never able to kill his father, and now that his father's died of nice natural causes, Oedipus doesn't have to worry about fulfilling that awful prophecy. What a relief, How comforting? Ah life is good for Oedipus, I told you so, Joe Casta basically says, though kinder still she's right. Prophecies aren't shit. You don't have to worry about anything now, Oedipus, His wife tells him, not anything. He asks, don't I still need to worry about lying with my mother? That was still part of the prophecy, And Jocasta, his wife, gives him a speech about not living in fear. How it doesn't help anyone chance rules life. One can't know anything before it happens. Life is random. Quote you two, why dread marrying your mother? Many before in dreams as well have lain with their It's the man to whom all this means nothing, who gets along most easily. Still, Jocasta can't reassure him completely, regardless of what she said, because Oedipus's mother is still alive in Corinth. He's still worried about the possibility of that bit of the prophecy coming true. And I just want to point out for now how just how concerned he is with this. He is horrified at the idea of lying with his mother, of having sex with her. He is actively fearing it. He's actively avoiding it at all costs. It is consuming him. Are you listening, Freud? The messenger listens while Jocasta and Oedipus discuss all of this, their fears and whether or not they're really anything to be feared at this point, and many asks what woman they're speaking of with such concern mar O pay Oedipus answers, the one of the late king Polybus. Why are you so concerned? The messenger asks, and so Oedipus tells him about the prophecy that he was told so many years ago, decades even. He tells the messenger that the prophecy determined that he was faded to quote lie with my mother and take the blood of my own father on my hands. He adds that that's why he's been gone from Corinth all this time, even though he misses his parents so much. The messenger replies, only, quote, that's what kept you far from Corinth. Of course, Oedopus confirms he didn't want to kill his father, let alone lie with his mother. Ah. Well, the messenger says, how about I alleviate these fears of yours. That's why I came here, actually to gain favor in Corinth by bringing you back. But edip is horrified. But he can't go back to Corinth with his mother still there, not when he knows what could await him if he does, to which the messenger says, quote, son, you clearly don't know what you're doing. They discuss Oedipus's fears now, the the reason he's been worried about fulfilling the prophecy. How that's what's kept him far from Corinth. But you shouldn't fear that, the messenger says, it's not justified. And when an Oedipus asks why, like, how could that possibly be that it's not justified? The messenger just says, quote, because Pollybus was no kin of yours. Of course. Oedipus just finds himself even more confused. Now what are you talking about? He presses, was Polybus not my father? No? The messenger tells him no more than I am. And when pressed further, because obviously he can't stop talking now, the messenger goes on to explain that Marripey and Pollybus were childless for so long they weren't able to have one for themselves, and that's why, when you, Oedipus, were found in the mountains of Kytheron, the couple was so eager to love you as their own, to true you as their own, true son. The messenger knows all of this, he tells Oedipus, because he was actually the very same person who found Oedipus there on Mount Kitheron when he was just a tiny baby. He was a shepherd. Then he explains it was he who found Oedipus there with those wounds to his ankles, with those pins in his feet, the same damaged feet that gave Oedipus his name. See there are actually two possible etymologies for Oedipus's name. One suggests that it could just mean I know, and the other swollen foot. Both, it seems, are quite fitting. But this is where the messenger's knowledge ends. When Oedipus asks him who it was that did these horrible things to him when he was just a baby, the messenger doesn't know, because well, he didn't so much find Oedipus out in the water child, as he was handed the baby by someone else, another shepherd. At this Oedipus asks, quote, who was he? Do you know him? Can you tell me? And the messenger just tells him, quote, I think he was called one of Lias's men. One of Lias's men, that's who brought the poor baby Oedipus with his feet pinned together to the messenger of Corinth. How he ended up with the king and queen there being raised as their son. And with the help of the chorus, they learned that actually that same shepherd, one of Lias's men, is the very same man they're waiting on now, the one who was the sole survivor who witnessed the death of that same Lias, the former King of Thebes. What a lucky fucking coincidence. At this, Oedipus turns to his wife, Joe Caasta for her guidance. Is it possible? He asks that this is the same man, Jocasta, though she's wow, she's not keen to entertain that idea. Quote, what if he is? Ignore it? All this talk all to no purpose. Don't even think of it. That isn't possible now, Joe Caasta. He tells her, with clues like this, it's now impossible that I don't learn the truth about my childhood, my parentage, And Jocasta tells him quote by the gods, if you care for your own life, don't look into this. My sorrows are enough. But don't you worry. Oedipus tries to reassure her even if I find out that I came from someone low born, or even someone enslaved, that won't change anything about your status. He's trying to calm her down. He wants to comfort his wife, the woman that he loves, and she just says, quote, still listen to me, I beg you don't do this. He won't listen, though, even when she continues to beg him not to press it any further, not to keep looking into his history or where he comes from. Eventually she says, quote doomed man, may you never know who you are? And when Oedipus just asks once more for the shepherd to be brought to him so that he can get his answers Joe cast he says just one more line before returning to the palace, quote unhappy. That's all you'll hear from me, no other word in time to come. And with that she's gone distraught, so sad she returns to the palace, and even when the chorus asks Oedipus why his wife left so sad and distraught, he doesn't bother himself with it. He can't see a world in which she isn't just worried about status hers and his and how it might change based on these revelations. He can't imagine any other reason why she should want him to stop looking, to stop asking questions, to stop seeking answers about his parentage, And because of that, he just keeps pressing, despite his wife's warnings, and despite the fact that he was already told very explicitly by Jocasta that the son she had by Lias all those years ago, had had his little feet pinned together before he was left on a nearby mountainside. Aedipus is so wrapped up in himself that he doesn't even register that little but very important fact. So the chorus sings. They sing of prophecy of Mount Kitheron, home and mother to Oedipus. They sing of the favors bestowed on him. They sing to Apollo, hoping he hears them and is pleased. Then they ask questions themselves. They ask aloud, who Oedipus's true mother might be. Maybe a nymph of the mountain. Maybe that could mean Pan or even Apollo was Edipus's true father, or maybe Dionysus, even all of them could have lain with a nymph of Mounttheron. Oedipus joins them in their guess work before he spots the shepherd coming to him. Guided by the servants, Oedipus sent in search for the man that he believes will have all the answers that he's looking for, and even the messenger from Corinth confirms that he is the man that they've been speaking of, the one who gave him the little baby. Oedipus to bring to Corinth, and so Oedipus speaks to this shepherd. The man confirms that he was once owned by Lias, that he was born in the household, not bought, and then he tells Oedipus that yes, he's spent most of his time shepherding on Mount Kitheron. And though at first he doesn't recognize the messenger from Corinth, when Oedipus asks him, the messenger reminds him how they met and how much time they spent together so long ago now and then he remembers it well, though he says so much time has passed. But when the topic turns more directly to whether or not this shepherd remembers giving the messenger an injured baby who'd been left to die on the mountainside, things get a little diceier. The shepherd bites back, quote what's this? What are you getting at? And when the messenger clarifies that Oedipus here is the man who was that child, the shepherd replies, quote, a curse on you? Will you not hold your tongue. He continues to try to avoid this line of questioning. He doesn't want to say anything, doesn't want to talk about it. At all, certainly doesn't want to admit anything, but when Oedipus threatens to hurt him if he doesn't start speaking, he eventually concedes that, yes, he gave this messenger a baby, but he adds that he wishes that he'd died then himself, and if this Oedipus threatens that he'll die now if he doesn't speak, But the man knows that he'll die in even worse death if he does. He keeps trying to avoid the details. He'll admit he gave up the baby, but when pressed as to whose it was, he won't say, and Oedipus just keeps pushing him. Finally, he admits that the child was from the house of Lias, and then, when pushed even further as to whether the baby was born to an enslaved person there or to Lias his own family, he says, quote his yes, the child was his, but she within your wife would best speak of it? How it was? It all comes rushing out now in a series of quickly exchanged words between this shepherd and Oedipus, the truth crashing around him. The baby was Lias and Jocasta's. She was the one who gave the baby to the shepherd to do away with in fear of the prophecy that the baby would kill his father. But it's revealed the shepherd gave the baby to the messenger of Corinth out of pity to be saved from death. But he says to Oedipus, quote, if you are who he says you are, you were born doomed. And so Oedipus, taking this all in, cries out and says, quote, it's all come out too clear light. May I never look on you again. I'm the one born to those I shouldn't have come from, living with those I shouldn't live with, killing those I ought not to have killed with the truth revealed that Oedipus is exactly what he'd feared, That the absolute worst imaginable things have happened all as he attempted to avoid those same things. That not only did he accidentally kill his birth father Lias while trying to flee the same prophecy, but equally accidentally, equally randomly, he found himself in a position not only to have taken the throne of Thebes, but to marry the widowed Jocasta, now revealed to be his own mother. With all of these horrors revealed to oedipth he rushes into the palace, out of his mind with grief and horror. It's just the chorus left on the stage now, the messenger and the shepherd left after Oedipus and the chorus. Is there left to take in everything that's revealed about their king and their queen and their city, all the horrors left out for everyone to see. They sing, Quote generations of mortals, How I reckon your lives equal to nothing, for what what man wins more of happiness than to seem? And having seemed to seem no more? With your fortune yours in mind, yours unhappy? Oedipus, I can call no mortal blessed. They sing of Oedipus and the Sphinx, How his defeat is no longer happy, How it's now steeped in his own horrible fate. They sing, of horrors do any rival those of Oedipus? Quote for you, the same wide harbor lay open as son and husband, fathering children. How could the furrow sown by your father bear you in silence so long? What a harbor? And farming metaphors? When it comes to Jocasta, they sing, of his marriage to Jocasta, now revealed to be unlawful. They sing of the children, four children and born to this couple over so many years, grown children, quote, how I grieve for you above all the dirge pouring from my lips. In truth, You gave me the breath of life, then closed my eyes in death. When they finish, a messenger, though a different man than the one from Corinth, comes out from the palace with news, and it's not good. He starts by just warning the chorus of the pain they're about to endure. So you know it's about to get messy as fuck, as if you know it wasn't already messy as fuck. He goes on elaborating, quote, for neither ister nor the fastest could wash away the stain upon these walls, the evils that hide within, and those that soon will burst into the light, willed not unwilled, self chosen pains which hurt the most to see. Yeah, things inside the palace are bad. When the chorus asks what sorrows this man is going to bestow upon them, he's blunt, quote the swiftest word to say, and understand, She's dead. Jocasta's dead. Who was our Queen. The Queen is dead. The messenger goes on to explain how it happened. After she left the stage, she rushed into the palace in a frenzy. She went straight to her bedroom, the bedroom she shared with her beloved husband, now revealed to be the sun she thought was long dead, practically tortured at Lias's hands. There she called out to Lias, speaking to him of their son and all that's happened, all that's been revealed to her. Then quote she mourned her bed on which she bore a husband from her husband, children from her child. Oof. Fuck, Jocasta, Just I mean, fucking imagine learning something like this when you've lived happily for so long with your loving husband, your big, happy family. Fucking imagine. The messenger goes on to say that he can't say yet how she died, because it was Oedipus who found her and prevented anyone from seeing her. They were watching him, anyway, watching as he frantically raged over what's happened, what he's learned, and as he searched for his wife. Quote that wife, no wife, but a field that had brought forth two harvests, him and his children and then screaming, he wrenched open the double doors to his bedroom, and he found her. He found her hanging in their bedroom, dead, and he pulled her down carefully, quickly, but lovingly. And then he wrenched the pins from her dress and stabbed them into his own eyes, quote, crying out that from now on those eyes would not see him or the evils he had done and suffered, but see in darkness those whom he should not have seen, and not know those he had wanted to know. The messenger goes on after he's finished, describing in detail just how disturbing Oedipus's act was, just what happened to the poor man's eyes, speaking more broadly of what's occurred and the horrors quote, the happiness of old was truly happiness back then. But now and on this day lamentation, disaster, death, shame of all the evils with a name, not one is missing. The chorus asks after Oedipus, is he free of pain now? They're told that in instead, he yells about revealing the true killer of Lias, their former king. He's talking of hurling himself from thebes, exiling himself, cursed as he is. But he says, Oedipus needs help. He needs someone to guide him in his exile. He's not strong or well enough to do it himself, even aside from the fact that he's now blind. And with that, Oedipus returns to the stage, his eyes bloody and destroyed by his own hand. The chorus and Oedipus sing together. He starts quote cloud of darkness, mind, repulsive, unspeakable, invincible, onset, blown on an evil wind. They sing of grief. Oedipus sings of the god Apollo, who brought these evils to him to the city of Thebes, though he makes clear that it was his own hand that determined to take his sight quote for why should I go on? S I who had? When seeing nothing sweet to see? He determined there was nothing else he had to see in this world, not with his life so utterly destroyed, his wife dead. Oedipus speaks of the shepherd who saved him as a baby, wishing that he'd just left him there, that none of this would have happened, and even the chorus confirms that they wished it too. Oedipus continues, if he'd just died then like he should have quote I would not have come as my father's killer or be called by men husband to those that gave me birth. The chorus, not holding back, tells Oedipus that he'd be better off dead than blind, but Oedipus doesn't want to hear it. He knows, and yet if he had died, he knew he would have had to see his father in the underworld, and probably Jocasta too, And then what and since he will remain alive, do they think that the sight of his children is anything he wants to see to witness, since he now knows how they were conceived? And yes, I do think he probably could have brought up his four children at some point before this moment. But the tragedy isn't about them, though their existence only heightens it. Oedipus launches into a long speech, now lamenting all of it, every moment of his life, everything that's happened, how he didn't die on Kytheron as a baby when he could have when he should have. He laments his wife, his mother, his marriage, his children, his father, all of it. He calls to the gods to help him, to hide him away somewhere, to keep him from the world, and then he's joined by Creon. The chorus announces Creon's arrival both for the audience and for the now sightless Oedipus. They tell him that he's here to weigh in on Oedipus's requests, on his desire to be gone, to exile himself, to live far away from everyone, and Creon very kindly says immediately that he isn't there to judge Oedipus or mock him. He isn't there with unkind words after what's come to pass. He's honest. Though he can't have Oedipus out here in public. He is shameful, even if he is also somewhat blameless. It was, after all, all destined to happen, regardless of what anyone did to try to escape their fates. Oedipus and Creon discuss the former's fate. Oedipus wants Creon to exile him, quote, hurl me from the land right now, send me where no man will ever speak to me. Creon agrees, for the most part, he wanted to do that already, but he wanted to speak with the gods first, to seek their guidance. When Oedipus hears this and confirms that Creon will ask the gods. Creon pointedly asks whether Oedipus will trust them if he does, since he didn't before, and look where it's gotten him With this knowledge. In the open, Oedipus turns his concerns to Jocasta. He asks that Creon bury his sister as he sees fit, but to honor her, and then it's back to being about him. He asks that his father's city, this city Thebes, never be asked to shelter him again. May he roam kitheron where he should have died in the first place. Let fate have him now, and for his children, Oedipus tells Creon, quote, you needn't worry about my sons, their men, they'll never lack the means of life, whatever they may be. But my pair of girls, unhappy, pitiful, who never die at a table set apart from mine, but had their share of everything I touched them. You must care for and most of all, let me touch them, let me lament my sorrows. Honestly, I'm kind of obsessed with that line, this kind of confirmation that Oedipus has always treated his daughters with kindness, treated them as equals to himself and the rest of the family. I mean, sure, it's the bare fucking minimum, but in Greek myth it's enormous and says so much about the family that's just been blown apart. They were happy, Oedipus and his wife, who he loved. They were happy. They had their four children, and they treated them with love and affection. They were a real and happy family. And half of that family joins the stage now. Oedipus and Jocasta's two daughters, Antigony and his many creon arranged it. He imagined that Oedipus want to say goodbye to them, would want to show his love after all the horrors that they've gone through alongside him. This affects them just as much after all. So he does say goodbye. Oedipus hugs his daughters and tells them how he loves them. He imagines all the things they'll do without him, without their mother, the festivals and events when they will marry. He thinks of the horrors they'll face now that it's known who their father and mother were to each other. He worries no one will want to marry them, a fate all too severe for women. In the ancient Greek world. He asks that Creon care for them, that he shelter them all he can, and not treat them any differently now that the truth is known. His last line of the speech to his daughters and Creon is quote, but pray for this to live where opportunity allows, and have a better life than the father who begot you. Creon tries to send Oedipus away now, but for all he wants once his exile, He's asked for it all this time. He's now hesitant to give up his daughters. When the time finally comes, he does leave, though in the end and Creon leads his daughters into the palace, leaving the chorus alone on the stage to finish the play. Their last speech is directed at the people of Thebes, calling upon them to look upon the story of Oedipus, the man who so famously saved them all from the sphinx by answering her riddle. Who was so envied for the life he received after that moment, the happy marriage. His place is king, his loving family. Then quote, see what he's come to? What a wave of grim disaster washed over him? A warning to us all bye the coming of that final day, counting no man happy till he has crossed life's boundary free of pain. And then while there's no way to end with anything other than abject tragedy, this isn't Euripides. There's no lightheartedness. It's just dark and awful and horrifying. But while I'm not done having things to say about it, even if the play is over, because there is just so much hiding beneath the surface. The use of the word tyrant tyranos throughout the play, when referring not only to Oedipus as king of Thebes, but also Lias and even Oedipus as potential king of Corinth, is just all so incredibly important, And it's one of those things that if you're not or if you are just watching the play today, you're probably not gonna get it. It's subtle, and without the knowledge about the etymology of tyrant and the history of the term broadly, you're just not going to catch the intricacies. But Oedipus is a tyrant of Thebes, except really he's not. He is because he sees power after defeating the Sphinx, and he did it with the blessing of this city. He wasn't a tyrant in our modern sense. Their king was dead. They thought it was unrelated to it to business arrival, and he defeated this big bad that had been causing them so much trouble. They were more than happy for him to take the throne. And when he did, he met Jocasta. They fell in love. That they love each other seems pretty clear to me, and certainly in the myths beyond this play too. That's where the tragedy is. This couple met after the death of Lias, who we don't really hear much about when it comes to Jocasta, but we can assume that she was an incredibly young bride because she had a child, and he grew up enough to then marry her, and then they had more children, So one can assume that she was a child bride to Lias. He died and she met someone closer to her age if younger, imagine like fourteen, you know, and she falls for him. He's nice and he's heroic, and he's saved her city. They marry, They live happily together long enough to have four children and watch those four children grow. Oh and then one day it just blows up and it doesn't just blow up like any normal relationship could. It's it fucking explodes and just motherings of horror and incest and just the absolute worst imaginable things. Suddenly she finds out that she's fallen in love with a man who it turns out, is the Sun that she thought was long dead, and she realizes long before he does. That's why she tries to make him stop asking questions, as if that will stop the horror. If they don't know, it's like it's not real. She's desperate, just grasping at anything to keep her life from dissolving into nothing but disgusting and horrible revelations. To me, Joe Casta is the tragic figure here. I mean, edip is too sure, but he just he had no idea what was happening, what was going to be revealed. But God's Jocasta slowly realizing now, I know, I made a really big ilbod Oedipus when I first told this story, like about things like he should have realized something was up when he heard that his parents in Corinth weren't his blood relatives, or when he killed a man on the road at the same time as Lias died. There are so many things that, in hindsight, could have saved everyone so much tragedy. But really you can see how it happens this way, Like no one wants to imagine the things that are revealed here. They're just be on the pail. They're too much for one's imagination to come up with. You just you have to deny things like this until it's so obvious that you can't avoid it. As for the tyrant King, though ultimately it isn't entirely true about him, and therein lies the fascination with the word like he's a Tyrannos, but he's also a basilaus he would have gotten the throne through his lineage if everything hadn't happened how it did. Meanwhile, they don't even register that he is called a potential tyrant of Corinth, which is a clear indicator that he's not born of the king, and just he's a little of everything. That's what adds to the dramatic irony alongside literally everything else in this play, like he is just all things at once. Often the assumption about this play is that the tragedy lies in the actual act of accidentally marrying your mother and killing your father and then you know everything that comes from it. But to me, it's the tragedy of finding out that the person you've loved for probably about twenty years, who you've had four grown children with, who you've devoted your life to, is your child or or is your mother. Their relationship is the tragedy, their love suddenly transforming from something beautiful into something horrifying just in the blink of an eye. Oh, nerds, nerds, that ending, my god, dramatic, hardcore fucked ups, seriously dramatic. Is there any wonder this is referred to as the best like the most powerful Greek tragedy, tragedy being the keyword, like gods, it's just something else entirely, and often I think it's really just seen as this story of accidentally incest and how wild that is, like Adip is the motherfucker, but it's it's so much more than that. Also because obviously I've mentioned him a bunch now, but that Freud's stuff about this play really drives me up the wall, like this idea that Oedip is subconsciously wanted to have sex with his mother, Like I mean, aside from the fact that the complex itself is just like weird and gross and so very Freudian. There's just absolutely zero, zero evidence in any ancient source to suggest that he had any way of knowing that she was his mother before he married her. I mean, sure, there's an argument you made that he should have realized earlier in the play, but not in his life. And by the time the play is happening, it's it's a far too late. Everything is decided and it's just about how and when the reveals happen. God's anyway, I love Greek tragedy. Is that is that obvious? This play made me so fascinated by what exists beyond the play, though, so with the Sphinx and Lias and literally anything else surrounding their story. So actually, next week we're gonna look at the Sphinx as a concept and a character, one that is fascinating even just from the perspective, like how widespread the imagery of her is when she only really appears in this story, let alone the fact that like if Egypt had one too, but they're it's pretty different. Anyway, we're gonna talk about that and Lias. There's just enough that we're gonna be a whole lock An episode about it, and then I can't wait. As always. Let's end this with a lovely five star review from one of you amazing listeners. I love you for these They make me so happy. This one made me laugh comes from a user named esme Egg in the UK. Forty three percent increase in brain size since listening. Hi, I just wanted to say this has been the most calming and concise podcast I've ever I've managed to get my claws on, and I feel extremely lucky. Completely agree with your reviews on Antigny. Oh appropriate, I didn't register that when I put it in here anyway. To me, it seems so very counterproductive to isolate her story as one of the most powerful and impactful when considering there is a huge spectrum of boss women in Greek mythology. Feminine rage is not to be underestimated. And then there's like a salute emoji having said that, I would still name a cat after her. Keep at it. You're making lots of nerds very happy. Thank you. That one was seriously fun. Let's tackle Mats Baby is written produced by me Live. Albert Michael Smith is the Hermes my Olympian's God's and Mikaela does everything. She's the best, like, oh my god. Also, when this airs, Michaela's gonna be in Italy on like an archaeological dig, which is the coolest thing ever and I'm so excited for her. Stephanie Foley works to transcribe the podcast for YouTube captions and accessibility. The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeartMedia. Help me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology and the Age of Mediterranean By becoming a patron, we'll get access to bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon dot com slash Met's Baby, or click on the link in this episode's description. Gods, I can read that bit fast. I am live and I mother fucking love this shit. Sorry, Edi Pitt, I had to