Onward, damned shade, and goad your sinful house to madness. Let there be rivalry in guilt of every kind. Let the sword be drawn on this side and on that. Let their passions no, no bounds, no shame. Let blind fury prick on their souls, heartless be parents rage, and to children's children. Let the long trail of sin lead down. Let time be given to none to hate old sins. Ever, let new arise many in one, and let crime, even amidst its punishment, increase from haughty brothers hands. Let kingdoms fall, and in turn let them call back the fugitives. Let the wavering fortune of a home of violence, amidst changing kings, totter to its fall, from power to wretchedness, from wretchedness to power. May this befall, and may chance with her ever restless waves bear the kingdom on for crime's sake. Exiled, when gods shall bring them home to crime, may they return, and may they be as hateful to all men as to themselves. Let there be naught which passion deems unallowed. Let brother fear brother, father, fear son, and son father. Let children vilely perish, and yet be more vilely born. Let a murderous wife lift hand against her husband. Let wars pass over sea. Let streaming blood drench every land and over the mighty chiefs of earth. Let lust exult triumph in this sin stained house. Let shameful defilement be a trivial thing. Let fraternal sanctity and faith and every right be trampled underfoot by our sins. Let heaven not be untainted. Why do the stars glitter in the sky, Why do their fires preserve the glory dew to the world. Let the face of night be changed. Let day fall from heaven. Embroil your household gods, summon up hatred, slaughter, death, and fill the whole house with tantalus. Hi, Hello, friends, this is let's talk about midst faith, and I am your newly converted Seneca fan live. Was that passage at the beginning a little too long? Maybe? Do I care? Not? Really? It was too fun. I cannot properly express how excited I am to be covering this very specific play at this very specific time. If I learned anything from covering Seneca's Medea back in August, it's that this man knows how to write ancient violence, ancient horror, and gore and just God's everything that the myth of atreus am Thiestes is known for, only bigger, better, better, Roman they did like blood, which leads directly into a little trigger warning, because well, this is arguably the most horrifying story from Greek mythology and features, in addition to a brief mention of a possible sexual assault, the murder and cannibalizing of well children more than one. This is, after all, the family of Tantalus and his never ending curse. So think back to last week's episode. There I introduce this cursed family to you all once again, and then you know, forget everything that you think you know, because this is Seneca and he is here to one up the Greeks in all things visceral and violent and disgusting. This play opens with the ghost of Tantalus speaking with one of the furies, the Runaways, This fury who is shrieking for murder and bloodshed and all of the crimes that her.

Onward, damned shade, and goad your sinful house to madness. Let there be rivalry in guilt of every kind. Let the sword be drawn on this side and on that. Let their passions no, no bounds, no shame. Let blind fury prick on their souls, heartless be parents rage, and to children's children. Let the long trail of sin lead down. Let time be given to none to hate old sins. Ever, let new arise many in one, and let crime, even amidst its punishment, increase from haughty brothers hands. Let kingdoms fall, and in turn let them call back the fugitives. Let the wavering fortune of a home of violence, amidst changing kings, totter to its fall, from power to wretchedness, from wretchedness to power. May this befall, and may chance with her ever restless waves bear the kingdom on for crime's sake. Exiled, when gods shall bring them home to crime, may they return, and may they be as hateful to all men as to themselves. Let there be naught which passion deems unallowed. Let brother fear brother, father, fear son, and son father. Let children vilely perish, and yet be more vilely born. Let a murderous wife lift hand against her husband. Let wars pass over sea. Let streaming blood drench every land and over the mighty chiefs of earth. Let lust exult triumph in this sin stained house. Let shameful defilement be a trivial thing. Let fraternal sanctity and faith and every right be trampled underfoot by our sins. Let heaven not be untainted. Why do the stars glitter in the sky, Why do their fires preserve the glory dew to the world. Let the face of night be changed. Let day fall from heaven. Embroil your household gods, summon up hatred, slaughter, death, and fill the whole house with tantalus. Hi, Hello, friends, this is let's talk about midst faith, and I am your newly converted Seneca fan live. Was that passage at the beginning a little too long? Maybe? Do I care? Not? Really? It was too fun. I cannot properly express how excited I am to be covering this very specific play at this very specific time. If I learned anything from covering Seneca's Medea back in August, it's that this man knows how to write ancient violence, ancient horror, and gore and just God's everything that the myth of atreus am Thiestes is known for, only bigger, better, better, Roman they did like blood, which leads directly into a little trigger warning, because well, this is arguably the most horrifying story from Greek mythology and features, in addition to a brief mention of a possible sexual assault, the murder and cannibalizing of well children more than one. This is, after all, the family of Tantalus and his never ending curse. So think back to last week's episode. There I introduce this cursed family to you all once again, and then you know, forget everything that you think you know, because this is Seneca and he is here to one up the Greeks in all things visceral and violent and disgusting. This play opens with the ghost of Tantalus speaking with one of the furies, the Runaways, This fury who is shrieking for murder and bloodshed and all of the crimes that her.

Wonderful mind can possibly imagine.

Wonderful mind can possibly imagine.

This is episode two thirty two. A cursed ghost and a goddess of vengeance walk into a bar. Seneca's Thysdes Part one by our sins Let not heaven be untainted? Why do the stars glitter in the sky? Why did their fires preserve the glory? Do the world let the face of night be changed, Let day fall from heaven, embroil your household, Gods, summon up hatred, slaughter, death, and fill the whole house with Tantalus. That and the long passage that I read at the top of the episode where some of the opening lines to Seneca's thiestes it's the ghost of Tantalus who really opens the play. Yes, the ghost of fucking Tantalus, but the speech that follows him is from a god's damned fury, And that's what I just recited. The play opens with long speeches by not only a fury, a fucking fury, but also a ghost talk about setting the mood. But before we really get into this ghost of a cursed and punished man and an underworld spirit of vengeance, her body encircled with hissing, venomous snakes, we need to situate ourselves. See, this family is so cursed over so many generations that it's easy to forget just who has murdered whom, most recently, where we find ourselves with the family, Now, there has unsurprisingly been another murder of another family member. Remember it began with Tantalus, whose inexplicable hubris led him to kill his son Pelops, cut him up and cook him in a meal appetizing enough to tempt the gods. Pelops was returned to life by those same gods, but his father earned himself an eternal punishment In Tartarus, Pelops the curse moving by killing a man mrderless for reasons that we can absolutely find to be justifiable, and yet which still earned him another generation of curse, or rather saddled his children with taking over the curse of their father, just as Pilops did his own. Now we have Pilops's two sons to contend with Atreus and Thiastes. Where we find them, they have again committed a murder. Maybe I gather that not every translator of this play can decide why exactly these two brothers are not only cursed, but about to fuck things up for each other in the most wild way imaginable. That is simply just how fucked up this family is. There are multiple reasons why these brothers are about to do the most horrifying things in the world. You see, Atreus and Thiestes had a half brother. Pilops had a son by a woman who is not Hippodamia but a nymph, and this child was called Chrysippos. And his story is only sometimes connected with this particular aspect of the curse, this act that's about to happen between Atreus and Thiistes. I've mentioned to him, actually to you all, not that long ago, because he is also the young man who was again, according to just some takes on the stories, abducted by Lias, the king of Thebes, who would go on to be murdered by Oedipus, his son. See there's that version of his story that says that Lias was cursed because he abducted and sexually assaulted Chrysippos. This is that Chrysippos. He was the half brother of Atreus and Thiastes, and according to some takes on that story, he was later killed by those half brothers, providing yet another curse on Pelops's line. But that isn't always the way these brothers are introduced. It doesn't really matter whether they killed their brother. Frankly, they are cursed enough without the murder on their hands. Instead, according to Emily Wilson's translation, which is the main one I'm using. We're not so concerned with whether or not they may have killed their half brother, but instead it's just a bit of the usual sort of sibling rivalry, you know, the type. Two brothers fight over who gets to be the king after their father has died. They decide that it's obviously going to be whoever possesses a golden sheepskin, but not the famous golden sheepskin. That's a different one. This is another so that pesky sibling rivalry over who's got the golden sheep parts, you know, normal stuff. When Thiistes shows up with the golden fleece, Atreus accuses him of only having it because Thiestes seduced Atreus's wife, air Opay, and it's she who gave him the fleece, you know that age old story. Anyway, Atreus was convinced that Thiistes only had this fleece because of that, so he sees the throne himself and exiled his brother. And it's only when Thiastes returns from this exile that Seneca's play picks up and brings Us screaming like a fury back to this cursed as all fuck family. The ghost of Tantalus introduces us to the story at hand, or rather, first he's got to remind us of where he normally has to spend his days, because this isn't a Greek play, remember, so we're not going to begin with some big speech reminding us of the full extent of the story, or slowly introducing us to the violence that's about to happen. You know, off stage. This is Seneca. So the first lines are a ghost asking who has pulled him from his eternal tartarian punishment. Suddenly he's not surrounded by food and drink that he will never reach. He can't hear the screams of Titios, the giant who assaulted Lido, punished for eternity by having vultures perpetually gorging on his innards. Tantalus can't hear him anymore, and he can't hear the endless rolling of Sisyphus's boulder. Huh No, Now he's worried that he's maybe got a brand new punish to suffer through. He turns quickly though, to introducing the audience to his family, to his children and their children, and how they will surpass their ancestors in sin. Quote they will make me look innocent. No one has dared such deeds. If any space lies empty in the world of Sin, I claim it, Minos has work to do as long as Pelops's house still stands. That's minus as a judge in the underworld. If you were curious or just wanted to understand the full extent of Tantalus's comments on his own family, he seems to serve as kind of an outsider's opinion as much as the ghost of one's grandfather can be an outsider, you know, while also being more than aware of just how much more fucked up his family line is about to get. And then, of course the Fury speaks. That is what I read at the top of the episode. She goads him on. She wants bloodshed and violence. She wants someone to seek vengeance on. She is a Fury, one of the Irenaways. Her entire job in the whole of the world is to punish those who have committed unforgivable crimes against their family members. And she is aching for blood, craving it with everything that she has quote, let every crime participate and let the sword be drawn by each in turn. Let anger no no limit, no shame, while darkening passion whips their hearts. She asks that no one hath even the time to consider their past sins. Let them instead be so driven to commit further crimes that they think of nothing but that. She continues her speech. These quotes that I want to share now are from the Wilson translation. They are more detailed in calling for heinous and bloodthirsty crimes. They're easier to understand the extent of this furious speech calling for even more murder. She knows what she wants, and what she wants is fucking chaos. She wants those who have been exiled for past crimes, like Thyestes, to return so they can commit more crimes. Quote. Let there be nothing out of bounds for anger. Let brother fear brother, parent, child child parent. Let children's death be terrible, but even worse their births. She goes on essentially to call for everything that happens to the family before, during, and after the Trojan War. She wants a wife to plot against her husband, as Clydemnestra will do to Agamemnon. She wants war across the sea. She wants blood to cover every inch of the world's land. She wants the world to be conquered by the desire of its leaders. Quote let sexual wickedness be the least of sins. Let moral rite, scousness and faithfulness and all law perish. We are fifty lines into this play and I am already obsessed again with how different Seneca's tragedies are compared to the Greek play Rights, where even Euripides would have to write a play where the murder and the cannibalizing of once children is bad. Actually, Seneca is like, nah, why don't we start things off with the fury on stage calling for all the crimes anyone in this realm could ever possibly imagine. She's laying it all out. She wants the dirty details. She wants to know exactly how these men are about to kill, exactly how the family's crimes are going to escalate, how everything is going to blow up in the most violent and satisfying of ways. Girl wants it all, and she is more than comfortable asking for it. Her speech isn't done, and I'm not clossing over a single bit of it. She is, after all, I mean, the only woman in this play. She wants everything to burn and we are going to scream along with her quote, bring hatred, murder, death, use them to fill up all the house of Tantalus. She doesn't want everything dark and dreary as she calls for murder, though she wants Knight to descend, yes, because that's a better time for crimes. But she also wants things to look bright and cheery, you know, so that people are more likely to be trusting and thus fall victim to the crimes that she don't so desperately wants to take place. And of course, for all this fury is calling for crimes of all sorts, at least, you know, any of that fall under her purview when it comes to raging for vengeance. What she really really wants is exactly what this play is going to give her. She is here to introduce the audience to the play through shrieking horror, through foresight of what is to come. She is ready to spoil it all in calling for the crimes, because she, like everyone in the audience, already knows what's going to happen. This is an age old story, one as old as the Homeric epics themselves. There is no reason to beat around the bush when everyone knows what will happen, or rather, what they know is what the Greeks already made famous. What they don't know is how Seneca, this Roman, who made very clear in his madea that everything you think you know about an ancient Greek play can still shock and horrify you when a Roman without restraint gets his hands on it. Sure, the audience all knows that Thiest's children will be the victims of this play, that history will repeat itself when it comes to this particular family. But that doesn't mean that she can't still provide a little extra horror. This fury quote. Now, let the fires be lit to boil the cauldrons, chop up the bodies in pieces, Let children's blood pollute the ancestral hearth, Let the tables be set. I can only begin to imagine how this play would have been staged, how the Fury on the stage, shrieking and yelling at this ghost would have appeared. She is frantic, screaming and cackling, eagerly telling and reminding Tantalus what his ghost is there to witness. She wants him ready for it. She wants him watching closely. She needs someone to witness it along with her. It's no fun if no one's there to watch. He's been freed from Tartarus, after all, just so he can watch what his descendants are about to do to each other. Quote today, you will have a vacation to free yourself from hunger. At the table, fill up your empty belly. Watch as he drinks that cocktail of blood and wine. I have found a type of feast which even you would avoid, a type of feast which even Tantalus would avoid. You know something's about to get good and bloody and bone chillingly horrifying. If a goddess of vengeance straight from the underworld thinks that the man eternally punished for killing his son and feeding him to the gods, wouldn't even dare touch the meal that is about to be served in this house. Back to my pools and streams and fleeing waters, Back to the laden tree which shuns my very lips. Let me return to the black couch of my prison house. Let it be mine. If I seem too little wretched to change my stream in your beds midst a phlegathon, let me be left hemmed round with waves of fire. Whoever you are, by the Fate's law, bidden to suffer allotted punishment. Whoever lies quaking beneath the hollowed rocks and fears the downfall of the mountainous mass even now coming on you. Whoever shudders at the fears of gaping of greedy lions and entangled when their toils, shudders at the dread ranks of furies. Whoever half burned, shuns their threatening torches. Listen to the words of Tantalus. Now believe me, who know and love your punishments. Oh when shall it fall to me to escape those above? Those are the ghost of Tantalus's next lines. He laments his eternal punishment, how he cannot seem to escape the fate of the world of the living his descendants, despite the fact that he is a very dead, trapped in Tartarus forever, and yet doomed to face those above. But the fury you see, has a suggestion. She wants him to create even more chaos, to bring evil even deeper into this house, into the hearts of those two brothers, those would be kings. She wants them to fight, She wants them to kill. And you know that having a fury shrieking for blood on stage. Is the horror when a man like Tantalus, who killed and served up his own child as a meal for the gods, thinks that she is being a bit much. He tells the fury, quote, punishment is something I must accept, not become. Is it my mission to go? Like deadly gas from a vent in the earth or a plague infecting the world. He goes on to ask whether he really must bring such horror onto his own grandsons atreus Anthistes, Are they already doomed to that fate? Spoilers, Yes, they fucking are, and it's gonna be amazing. This ghost of Tantalus wants to mitigate it, though, if he can. He speaks aloud, a warning not to pollute their hands with familial blood, not to give in to what the Fury wants, not to infect that divine alter with such horror. He says that he will stand up to her evil. But he's stopped in the middle of these words, having instead to address the Fury that he seems to want to put a stop to. Quote, why are you lashing your whip in my face? Why the threat of these circling snakes? The Fury has stopped him from even attempting to work against her. She whips the ghost of Tantalus with her fiery whip. She sets her snakes on him, snakes that live wrapped around her, just writhing and terrifying form. She forces his familiar desperate hunger to return. She burns his chest from the inside out, then moves on to setting a fire in his stomach until he relents. He will follow the Fury and everything that she wants. I can only imagine that she cackles now, her eerie, blood curdling laugh echoing around the stage. Good. She tells the ghost of Tantalus, ghosts, bread, what you know so well? Quote, Make them resemble you, make them hate, make them thirst to drink their own blood. Make them thirst to drink their own blood. The palace trembles with the knowledge that Tantalus has returned. The Fury goes on before applauding his efforts and directing him back to his tartarian punishment. Because that's all she wanted. She needed this ancestral curse returned to the brothers. She wants them infected with the crimes of their ancestors. She wants them aching for what Tantalus did, only worse, more death, more horror, more of everything. Because this is Seneca and he seems to be summed up with just this phrase, more and more mores, bigger, bedder, better. The fury shifts to describing the world around her, how it changes and shifts with the forthcoming acts of violence. Quote the famous town of Argos fears its ancient thirst. See even the sun wonders whether to order the day, whether to goad to life a day which is doomed to die. Fuck. I love this fury, the singular woman in the whole play, something I can't even be mad about, because it's just so fucking impactful to have this seemingly unnamed, so far fury on this stage calling for violent crimes between men, between brothers and fathers and children. And then we meet the chorus of citizens. They immediately act as a counter to the fury. The her damage is well and done. The chorus wants the gods if Annie still loves the city of Argos and loves the brothers, their history across the Peloponnese, anything, if any god still has a single bit of affection for the whole of the Peloponnese. Let them put a stop to what is to come. Quote, do not allow each generation to get worse, each son more evil than his father was. That the gods stop this, that they have the children of Tantalus grow tired with their violence, their hatred. Let them get over it, leave it behind. The chorus goes on to recall how it all started, how Merdleus was traitorous against his master and Nomias before Peelops ever betrayed him. They recall how Peelops, as a child was killed by his own father and served to the gods. How Tantalus is punished for eternity for it. They describe that punishment in detail, how he is forever tantalized by food and drink, just forever out of reach. Hasn't this family done enough? When does it end? Not today? Chorus?

This is episode two thirty two. A cursed ghost and a goddess of vengeance walk into a bar. Seneca's Thysdes Part one by our sins Let not heaven be untainted? Why do the stars glitter in the sky? Why did their fires preserve the glory? Do the world let the face of night be changed, Let day fall from heaven, embroil your household, Gods, summon up hatred, slaughter, death, and fill the whole house with Tantalus. That and the long passage that I read at the top of the episode where some of the opening lines to Seneca's thiestes it's the ghost of Tantalus who really opens the play. Yes, the ghost of fucking Tantalus, but the speech that follows him is from a god's damned fury, And that's what I just recited. The play opens with long speeches by not only a fury, a fucking fury, but also a ghost talk about setting the mood. But before we really get into this ghost of a cursed and punished man and an underworld spirit of vengeance, her body encircled with hissing, venomous snakes, we need to situate ourselves. See, this family is so cursed over so many generations that it's easy to forget just who has murdered whom, most recently, where we find ourselves with the family, Now, there has unsurprisingly been another murder of another family member. Remember it began with Tantalus, whose inexplicable hubris led him to kill his son Pelops, cut him up and cook him in a meal appetizing enough to tempt the gods. Pelops was returned to life by those same gods, but his father earned himself an eternal punishment In Tartarus, Pelops the curse moving by killing a man mrderless for reasons that we can absolutely find to be justifiable, and yet which still earned him another generation of curse, or rather saddled his children with taking over the curse of their father, just as Pilops did his own. Now we have Pilops's two sons to contend with Atreus and Thiastes. Where we find them, they have again committed a murder. Maybe I gather that not every translator of this play can decide why exactly these two brothers are not only cursed, but about to fuck things up for each other in the most wild way imaginable. That is simply just how fucked up this family is. There are multiple reasons why these brothers are about to do the most horrifying things in the world. You see, Atreus and Thiestes had a half brother. Pilops had a son by a woman who is not Hippodamia but a nymph, and this child was called Chrysippos. And his story is only sometimes connected with this particular aspect of the curse, this act that's about to happen between Atreus and Thiistes. I've mentioned to him, actually to you all, not that long ago, because he is also the young man who was again, according to just some takes on the stories, abducted by Lias, the king of Thebes, who would go on to be murdered by Oedipus, his son. See there's that version of his story that says that Lias was cursed because he abducted and sexually assaulted Chrysippos. This is that Chrysippos. He was the half brother of Atreus and Thiastes, and according to some takes on that story, he was later killed by those half brothers, providing yet another curse on Pelops's line. But that isn't always the way these brothers are introduced. It doesn't really matter whether they killed their brother. Frankly, they are cursed enough without the murder on their hands. Instead, according to Emily Wilson's translation, which is the main one I'm using. We're not so concerned with whether or not they may have killed their half brother, but instead it's just a bit of the usual sort of sibling rivalry, you know, the type. Two brothers fight over who gets to be the king after their father has died. They decide that it's obviously going to be whoever possesses a golden sheepskin, but not the famous golden sheepskin. That's a different one. This is another so that pesky sibling rivalry over who's got the golden sheep parts, you know, normal stuff. When Thiistes shows up with the golden fleece, Atreus accuses him of only having it because Thiestes seduced Atreus's wife, air Opay, and it's she who gave him the fleece, you know that age old story. Anyway, Atreus was convinced that Thiistes only had this fleece because of that, so he sees the throne himself and exiled his brother. And it's only when Thiastes returns from this exile that Seneca's play picks up and brings Us screaming like a fury back to this cursed as all fuck family. The ghost of Tantalus introduces us to the story at hand, or rather, first he's got to remind us of where he normally has to spend his days, because this isn't a Greek play, remember, so we're not going to begin with some big speech reminding us of the full extent of the story, or slowly introducing us to the violence that's about to happen. You know, off stage. This is Seneca. So the first lines are a ghost asking who has pulled him from his eternal tartarian punishment. Suddenly he's not surrounded by food and drink that he will never reach. He can't hear the screams of Titios, the giant who assaulted Lido, punished for eternity by having vultures perpetually gorging on his innards. Tantalus can't hear him anymore, and he can't hear the endless rolling of Sisyphus's boulder. Huh No, Now he's worried that he's maybe got a brand new punish to suffer through. He turns quickly though, to introducing the audience to his family, to his children and their children, and how they will surpass their ancestors in sin. Quote they will make me look innocent. No one has dared such deeds. If any space lies empty in the world of Sin, I claim it, Minos has work to do as long as Pelops's house still stands. That's minus as a judge in the underworld. If you were curious or just wanted to understand the full extent of Tantalus's comments on his own family, he seems to serve as kind of an outsider's opinion as much as the ghost of one's grandfather can be an outsider, you know, while also being more than aware of just how much more fucked up his family line is about to get. And then, of course the Fury speaks. That is what I read at the top of the episode. She goads him on. She wants bloodshed and violence. She wants someone to seek vengeance on. She is a Fury, one of the Irenaways. Her entire job in the whole of the world is to punish those who have committed unforgivable crimes against their family members. And she is aching for blood, craving it with everything that she has quote, let every crime participate and let the sword be drawn by each in turn. Let anger no no limit, no shame, while darkening passion whips their hearts. She asks that no one hath even the time to consider their past sins. Let them instead be so driven to commit further crimes that they think of nothing but that. She continues her speech. These quotes that I want to share now are from the Wilson translation. They are more detailed in calling for heinous and bloodthirsty crimes. They're easier to understand the extent of this furious speech calling for even more murder. She knows what she wants, and what she wants is fucking chaos. She wants those who have been exiled for past crimes, like Thyestes, to return so they can commit more crimes. Quote. Let there be nothing out of bounds for anger. Let brother fear brother, parent, child child parent. Let children's death be terrible, but even worse their births. She goes on essentially to call for everything that happens to the family before, during, and after the Trojan War. She wants a wife to plot against her husband, as Clydemnestra will do to Agamemnon. She wants war across the sea. She wants blood to cover every inch of the world's land. She wants the world to be conquered by the desire of its leaders. Quote let sexual wickedness be the least of sins. Let moral rite, scousness and faithfulness and all law perish. We are fifty lines into this play and I am already obsessed again with how different Seneca's tragedies are compared to the Greek play Rights, where even Euripides would have to write a play where the murder and the cannibalizing of once children is bad. Actually, Seneca is like, nah, why don't we start things off with the fury on stage calling for all the crimes anyone in this realm could ever possibly imagine. She's laying it all out. She wants the dirty details. She wants to know exactly how these men are about to kill, exactly how the family's crimes are going to escalate, how everything is going to blow up in the most violent and satisfying of ways. Girl wants it all, and she is more than comfortable asking for it. Her speech isn't done, and I'm not clossing over a single bit of it. She is, after all, I mean, the only woman in this play. She wants everything to burn and we are going to scream along with her quote, bring hatred, murder, death, use them to fill up all the house of Tantalus. She doesn't want everything dark and dreary as she calls for murder, though she wants Knight to descend, yes, because that's a better time for crimes. But she also wants things to look bright and cheery, you know, so that people are more likely to be trusting and thus fall victim to the crimes that she don't so desperately wants to take place. And of course, for all this fury is calling for crimes of all sorts, at least, you know, any of that fall under her purview when it comes to raging for vengeance. What she really really wants is exactly what this play is going to give her. She is here to introduce the audience to the play through shrieking horror, through foresight of what is to come. She is ready to spoil it all in calling for the crimes, because she, like everyone in the audience, already knows what's going to happen. This is an age old story, one as old as the Homeric epics themselves. There is no reason to beat around the bush when everyone knows what will happen, or rather, what they know is what the Greeks already made famous. What they don't know is how Seneca, this Roman, who made very clear in his madea that everything you think you know about an ancient Greek play can still shock and horrify you when a Roman without restraint gets his hands on it. Sure, the audience all knows that Thiest's children will be the victims of this play, that history will repeat itself when it comes to this particular family. But that doesn't mean that she can't still provide a little extra horror. This fury quote. Now, let the fires be lit to boil the cauldrons, chop up the bodies in pieces, Let children's blood pollute the ancestral hearth, Let the tables be set. I can only begin to imagine how this play would have been staged, how the Fury on the stage, shrieking and yelling at this ghost would have appeared. She is frantic, screaming and cackling, eagerly telling and reminding Tantalus what his ghost is there to witness. She wants him ready for it. She wants him watching closely. She needs someone to witness it along with her. It's no fun if no one's there to watch. He's been freed from Tartarus, after all, just so he can watch what his descendants are about to do to each other. Quote today, you will have a vacation to free yourself from hunger. At the table, fill up your empty belly. Watch as he drinks that cocktail of blood and wine. I have found a type of feast which even you would avoid, a type of feast which even Tantalus would avoid. You know something's about to get good and bloody and bone chillingly horrifying. If a goddess of vengeance straight from the underworld thinks that the man eternally punished for killing his son and feeding him to the gods, wouldn't even dare touch the meal that is about to be served in this house. Back to my pools and streams and fleeing waters, Back to the laden tree which shuns my very lips. Let me return to the black couch of my prison house. Let it be mine. If I seem too little wretched to change my stream in your beds midst a phlegathon, let me be left hemmed round with waves of fire. Whoever you are, by the Fate's law, bidden to suffer allotted punishment. Whoever lies quaking beneath the hollowed rocks and fears the downfall of the mountainous mass even now coming on you. Whoever shudders at the fears of gaping of greedy lions and entangled when their toils, shudders at the dread ranks of furies. Whoever half burned, shuns their threatening torches. Listen to the words of Tantalus. Now believe me, who know and love your punishments. Oh when shall it fall to me to escape those above? Those are the ghost of Tantalus's next lines. He laments his eternal punishment, how he cannot seem to escape the fate of the world of the living his descendants, despite the fact that he is a very dead, trapped in Tartarus forever, and yet doomed to face those above. But the fury you see, has a suggestion. She wants him to create even more chaos, to bring evil even deeper into this house, into the hearts of those two brothers, those would be kings. She wants them to fight, She wants them to kill. And you know that having a fury shrieking for blood on stage. Is the horror when a man like Tantalus, who killed and served up his own child as a meal for the gods, thinks that she is being a bit much. He tells the fury, quote, punishment is something I must accept, not become. Is it my mission to go? Like deadly gas from a vent in the earth or a plague infecting the world. He goes on to ask whether he really must bring such horror onto his own grandsons atreus Anthistes, Are they already doomed to that fate? Spoilers, Yes, they fucking are, and it's gonna be amazing. This ghost of Tantalus wants to mitigate it, though, if he can. He speaks aloud, a warning not to pollute their hands with familial blood, not to give in to what the Fury wants, not to infect that divine alter with such horror. He says that he will stand up to her evil. But he's stopped in the middle of these words, having instead to address the Fury that he seems to want to put a stop to. Quote, why are you lashing your whip in my face? Why the threat of these circling snakes? The Fury has stopped him from even attempting to work against her. She whips the ghost of Tantalus with her fiery whip. She sets her snakes on him, snakes that live wrapped around her, just writhing and terrifying form. She forces his familiar desperate hunger to return. She burns his chest from the inside out, then moves on to setting a fire in his stomach until he relents. He will follow the Fury and everything that she wants. I can only imagine that she cackles now, her eerie, blood curdling laugh echoing around the stage. Good. She tells the ghost of Tantalus, ghosts, bread, what you know so well? Quote, Make them resemble you, make them hate, make them thirst to drink their own blood. Make them thirst to drink their own blood. The palace trembles with the knowledge that Tantalus has returned. The Fury goes on before applauding his efforts and directing him back to his tartarian punishment. Because that's all she wanted. She needed this ancestral curse returned to the brothers. She wants them infected with the crimes of their ancestors. She wants them aching for what Tantalus did, only worse, more death, more horror, more of everything. Because this is Seneca and he seems to be summed up with just this phrase, more and more mores, bigger, bedder, better. The fury shifts to describing the world around her, how it changes and shifts with the forthcoming acts of violence. Quote the famous town of Argos fears its ancient thirst. See even the sun wonders whether to order the day, whether to goad to life a day which is doomed to die. Fuck. I love this fury, the singular woman in the whole play, something I can't even be mad about, because it's just so fucking impactful to have this seemingly unnamed, so far fury on this stage calling for violent crimes between men, between brothers and fathers and children. And then we meet the chorus of citizens. They immediately act as a counter to the fury. The her damage is well and done. The chorus wants the gods if Annie still loves the city of Argos and loves the brothers, their history across the Peloponnese, anything, if any god still has a single bit of affection for the whole of the Peloponnese. Let them put a stop to what is to come. Quote, do not allow each generation to get worse, each son more evil than his father was. That the gods stop this, that they have the children of Tantalus grow tired with their violence, their hatred. Let them get over it, leave it behind. The chorus goes on to recall how it all started, how Merdleus was traitorous against his master and Nomias before Peelops ever betrayed him. They recall how Peelops, as a child was killed by his own father and served to the gods. How Tantalus is punished for eternity for it. They describe that punishment in detail, how he is forever tantalized by food and drink, just forever out of reach. Hasn't this family done enough? When does it end? Not today? Chorus?

Not today?

Not today?

Oh, undaring, unskilled, unnerved, and what it matters? Idema, king's worst reproach yet unavenged, after so many crimes, a brother's treacheries, and all right broken down, you busy yourself with idle complaints, a mere wrathful atreus. By now should the whole world be resounding with your arms on either side of the fleets be harrying both seas. By now, should fields and cities be aglow with flames, and the drawn sword be gleaming everywhere. Let the whole land of our galls resound, with our horses tread. Let no forests shelter my enemy, nor citadels built on high mountaintops. Let the whole nation leave mycenie and sound the trump of war. And whose hides and protects that hateful head, let him die a grievous death. Those are Atreus's first lines of this play. He enters, and he just berads himself. He's referring to himself in the third person, just utterly disgusted that he has yet to punish his own brother for what he's done. He goes on to say that he doesn't care whether everything around him is taken out, whether his own city and palace fall to ruin, whether he himself is killed in the attempt, so long as Thiestes dies too. And if you're wondering what you're missing to make a response like this even remotely reasonable, you were not missing anything. The likeliest crime of Thiestes is that he sees the throne by working with or seducing Atreus's wife Aeropay. We can certainly use our imagination for how that affected Airpay. But as far as Atrius seems to think it was seduction, that her working with thy SDEs very much of her own volition so that he could take the throne. So I think in this case one of the aspects of this cursed family is also just unchecked rage. This is over the top, even for a Greek mythological man. He goes on proposing ideas to himself for how he might finally get his revenge on his brother quote, come on, my soul, do deeds that history will condemn but never cease to speak of. Atreus continues to speak to himself of how he must get his revenge. He reveals eventually that his fear is that Thiestes, who's now returned from his exile, will try to seize the throne from him once more. You know now that he's defending his kingdom and in addition to seeking revenge for the crimes of his brother. So he decides that he has to work quickly. He needs to strike against Thyestes before he has a chance to do the same quote A preemptive strike is needed to stop him attacking me. When I am off my guard, he will kill me or I him. The winner is the one who gets there first. I am obsessed with how quickly Seneca gets into the action. There is no slow start, no bill up. We just go straight from a ghost talking to a fury to a man planning how exactly he can take out his brother before his brother can take him out. A servant of Atreus is there now, though, serving to question the king on his plans. You're not worried that your people will work against you, he asks, to which Atreus just notes that the best part of ruling a city is that everyone just has to accept whatever you want to do. They even have to like it. So now we know he's definitely a king with very good intentions who's only concerned for the good of his people, just kidding to his credit, Atreus, a servant, pushes back on this. He notes that to be a good king one does need to have his people in mind, that praise by the people, if it's forced, isn't worth Muchus is not particularly interested in listening to this, though, let alone looking inward to see anything remotely problematic with his plans. The servant tries to remind Atrius that even if his brother is truly horrible, committing a crime against him is still wrong. They are brothers blood. He doesn't mention that the furies exist purely the punish acts like this, but we are certainly meant to be thinking about it. Again, Atrius isn't listening, or at least he isn't taking in the truth behind his servant's words. He's far too caught up in hating Thiestes. And fortunately he's got a speech to remind us and the audience why exactly that is quote he seduced my wife. He stole her, and stole her and my kingdom too. He used deceit to get the ancient mark of rule and to wreak havoc upon our family. He goes to explain further there's a famous golden ram in the stables of Pelops, their father. He says that every new king in his line has a scepter that's gilded by the wool of that golden ram. With that scepter comes the rule of my scene. The scepter makes the king. Thus the owner of the ram itself is the king Diastes. He says quote made my wife his partner, betrayed my bed, and stole away the ram. When Thiistes did this, it was Atreus who was forced into exile. He wandered alone, threatened by everyone he once knew. He tells Us that he even had cause to worry that his own two sons may not have been his own, that maybe his wife's betrayal extended to them too. Their names again, you might recognize Agamemnon and Menelaus. Were they even his Atreus was forced to wonder. That's what Diastes did to his brother Atreus, and it's why Atreus has no doubt his mind that he must seek revenge against the SDEs, that nothing he could do to his brother would be worse than what's been done to him. Quote why hesitate, begin at least to raise up your spirits. Look to Tantalus and peel ups. My actions must be made to fit their model. And that's when you know where Atrus is going with this. If you are looking for inspiration in the man who killed his son and fed him to the gods while you are not in a good place gods, I'm a wordy bitch when it comes to plays like this. I just cannot resist. Not when spooky season is at hand, not when I can tell you every disgusting and violent detail of a play such as this one. Atreus begins to argue with his servant to suggest that if Atreus is so hell bent on getting his revenge, why doesn't he keep it simple and just run thi Estes through with a sword. Atreus might as well laugh at this quote. Death is the end of suffering. I want him to suffer. Only weak kings kill under my rule. People beg for the favor of death. Yeah, it sounds like he's an amazing king. His servant is rightly disturbed by this pronouncement. Atreus is going too far, and God's if that isn't really saying something. Atrius goes on to straight up seek the will of the furies. He wants their anger to be infused into him. Quote, let come the gang of ravening furies with violent runaways and maghera shaking fire in each hand. The rage that burns my heart needs to become more savage. I want to be filled with greater horror. Yeah. He's definitely not in a good place mentally, but it sure does make for fine entertainment. The Fury, who started the playoff with a deafening shriek, is getting exactly what she wanted. No crime against Thiestes will be enough for Atreus now. Nothing will fulfill his blood lust, Nothing within the limits of pain will be enough at least. No, He's going to use Thiestes himself to expel his rage, to get sufficient revenge. Atrius doesn't really know it, but he can feel the will of the Fury like she is infecting him, just as she'd planned, just as she'd tried to get Tantalus to help her with. He is being overtaken by her divine will. He begins to speak of a similar punishment in mythological history, another that I've told during this spookiest of seasons. He begins to consider the story of Prockny and Philamela, who got revenge on Prockney's husband Terrius for his crimes against Philamella, revenge that came in the form of the murder of their son Ittus, who they then fed to Terrius without his knowledge. It's not the first time this story has been mentioned in the play either. The Fury mentioned it no doubt the reason why Atreus considers it now The Fury has worked her magic, but God's Before I let this episode go on forever, I want to read this longer passage that Atreus speaks here, the way he references the story of Procne and Philamella and this Thracian king they devastated Itus the child definitely didn't deserve his fate, but God's Terrius did. When Atreus speaks these words, you can hear the influence of the Fury. He sounds more like her than he did at the beginning of his speeches. He is he's taking on her will. He is inspired by her craving for blood, for her need for divine retribution for crimes within the family. This is the passage where he realizes exactly what he's going to do to his brother, just how he's going to get his revenge, and God's it is quite the plan for revenge. I'm not lying when I say this might be the most horrific story from Greek myth, tied maybe with Prockny and Philamella. Only this is that passage. Some greater thing, larger than the common and beyond the bounds of human use, is swelling in my soul, and it urges on my sluggish hands. I know not what it is, but it is some mighty thing. So let it be haste to you, my soul, and do it. It is a deed worthy of thiestes and of Atreus. Let each perform it. The Thracian house once saw a feast unspeakable, a monstrous crime, I grant, but it has been done before. Let my lust for revenge find something worse than this inspire my soul, Procne and Philimella. Two. My case is like to yours. Help me and urge on my hand. Let the father, with joyous greed carve his sons and devour his own flesh. It's more than enough. This way of punishment is pleasing. Meanwhile, where is he? Why does atreus so long live harmless? Already before my eyes flits the whole picture of the slaughter, his lost children, heaped up before their father's face. Oh soul, why do you shrink back in fear and halt before the deed come? You must dare it. The crowning outrage in this crime is that he himself shall do it. Oh, my God's nerds, this play is incredible. I'm so excited. I just can't get over how Seneca handles these stories. This cursed family has always been my favorite, honestly, Like I just I love how casually they've gotten. Literally multiple generations have been fanticide and forced cannibalism under their belts, let alone the volume of murder of other family members that comes after Atreus and Biestes. But Seneca went and took an already deeply disturbing play and just turned it up to a hundred, starting it out with the ghost of a man whose eternal punishment is the most famous of them all, and having him be urged on by a fury like that is fucking art, Seneca. I absolutely cannot wait to get to the next episode. We've barely even touched the horror that's gonna come, and I'm just so fucking excited. Should I be so excited for a story that involves the murder of children?

Oh, undaring, unskilled, unnerved, and what it matters? Idema, king's worst reproach yet unavenged, after so many crimes, a brother's treacheries, and all right broken down, you busy yourself with idle complaints, a mere wrathful atreus. By now should the whole world be resounding with your arms on either side of the fleets be harrying both seas. By now, should fields and cities be aglow with flames, and the drawn sword be gleaming everywhere. Let the whole land of our galls resound, with our horses tread. Let no forests shelter my enemy, nor citadels built on high mountaintops. Let the whole nation leave mycenie and sound the trump of war. And whose hides and protects that hateful head, let him die a grievous death. Those are Atreus's first lines of this play. He enters, and he just berads himself. He's referring to himself in the third person, just utterly disgusted that he has yet to punish his own brother for what he's done. He goes on to say that he doesn't care whether everything around him is taken out, whether his own city and palace fall to ruin, whether he himself is killed in the attempt, so long as Thiestes dies too. And if you're wondering what you're missing to make a response like this even remotely reasonable, you were not missing anything. The likeliest crime of Thiestes is that he sees the throne by working with or seducing Atreus's wife Aeropay. We can certainly use our imagination for how that affected Airpay. But as far as Atrius seems to think it was seduction, that her working with thy SDEs very much of her own volition so that he could take the throne. So I think in this case one of the aspects of this cursed family is also just unchecked rage. This is over the top, even for a Greek mythological man. He goes on proposing ideas to himself for how he might finally get his revenge on his brother quote, come on, my soul, do deeds that history will condemn but never cease to speak of. Atreus continues to speak to himself of how he must get his revenge. He reveals eventually that his fear is that Thiestes, who's now returned from his exile, will try to seize the throne from him once more. You know now that he's defending his kingdom and in addition to seeking revenge for the crimes of his brother. So he decides that he has to work quickly. He needs to strike against Thyestes before he has a chance to do the same quote A preemptive strike is needed to stop him attacking me. When I am off my guard, he will kill me or I him. The winner is the one who gets there first. I am obsessed with how quickly Seneca gets into the action. There is no slow start, no bill up. We just go straight from a ghost talking to a fury to a man planning how exactly he can take out his brother before his brother can take him out. A servant of Atreus is there now, though, serving to question the king on his plans. You're not worried that your people will work against you, he asks, to which Atreus just notes that the best part of ruling a city is that everyone just has to accept whatever you want to do. They even have to like it. So now we know he's definitely a king with very good intentions who's only concerned for the good of his people, just kidding to his credit, Atreus, a servant, pushes back on this. He notes that to be a good king one does need to have his people in mind, that praise by the people, if it's forced, isn't worth Muchus is not particularly interested in listening to this, though, let alone looking inward to see anything remotely problematic with his plans. The servant tries to remind Atrius that even if his brother is truly horrible, committing a crime against him is still wrong. They are brothers blood. He doesn't mention that the furies exist purely the punish acts like this, but we are certainly meant to be thinking about it. Again, Atrius isn't listening, or at least he isn't taking in the truth behind his servant's words. He's far too caught up in hating Thiestes. And fortunately he's got a speech to remind us and the audience why exactly that is quote he seduced my wife. He stole her, and stole her and my kingdom too. He used deceit to get the ancient mark of rule and to wreak havoc upon our family. He goes to explain further there's a famous golden ram in the stables of Pelops, their father. He says that every new king in his line has a scepter that's gilded by the wool of that golden ram. With that scepter comes the rule of my scene. The scepter makes the king. Thus the owner of the ram itself is the king Diastes. He says quote made my wife his partner, betrayed my bed, and stole away the ram. When Thiistes did this, it was Atreus who was forced into exile. He wandered alone, threatened by everyone he once knew. He tells Us that he even had cause to worry that his own two sons may not have been his own, that maybe his wife's betrayal extended to them too. Their names again, you might recognize Agamemnon and Menelaus. Were they even his Atreus was forced to wonder. That's what Diastes did to his brother Atreus, and it's why Atreus has no doubt his mind that he must seek revenge against the SDEs, that nothing he could do to his brother would be worse than what's been done to him. Quote why hesitate, begin at least to raise up your spirits. Look to Tantalus and peel ups. My actions must be made to fit their model. And that's when you know where Atrus is going with this. If you are looking for inspiration in the man who killed his son and fed him to the gods while you are not in a good place gods, I'm a wordy bitch when it comes to plays like this. I just cannot resist. Not when spooky season is at hand, not when I can tell you every disgusting and violent detail of a play such as this one. Atreus begins to argue with his servant to suggest that if Atreus is so hell bent on getting his revenge, why doesn't he keep it simple and just run thi Estes through with a sword. Atreus might as well laugh at this quote. Death is the end of suffering. I want him to suffer. Only weak kings kill under my rule. People beg for the favor of death. Yeah, it sounds like he's an amazing king. His servant is rightly disturbed by this pronouncement. Atreus is going too far, and God's if that isn't really saying something. Atrius goes on to straight up seek the will of the furies. He wants their anger to be infused into him. Quote, let come the gang of ravening furies with violent runaways and maghera shaking fire in each hand. The rage that burns my heart needs to become more savage. I want to be filled with greater horror. Yeah. He's definitely not in a good place mentally, but it sure does make for fine entertainment. The Fury, who started the playoff with a deafening shriek, is getting exactly what she wanted. No crime against Thiestes will be enough for Atreus now. Nothing will fulfill his blood lust, Nothing within the limits of pain will be enough at least. No, He's going to use Thiestes himself to expel his rage, to get sufficient revenge. Atrius doesn't really know it, but he can feel the will of the Fury like she is infecting him, just as she'd planned, just as she'd tried to get Tantalus to help her with. He is being overtaken by her divine will. He begins to speak of a similar punishment in mythological history, another that I've told during this spookiest of seasons. He begins to consider the story of Prockny and Philamela, who got revenge on Prockney's husband Terrius for his crimes against Philamella, revenge that came in the form of the murder of their son Ittus, who they then fed to Terrius without his knowledge. It's not the first time this story has been mentioned in the play either. The Fury mentioned it no doubt the reason why Atreus considers it now The Fury has worked her magic, but God's Before I let this episode go on forever, I want to read this longer passage that Atreus speaks here, the way he references the story of Procne and Philamella and this Thracian king they devastated Itus the child definitely didn't deserve his fate, but God's Terrius did. When Atreus speaks these words, you can hear the influence of the Fury. He sounds more like her than he did at the beginning of his speeches. He is he's taking on her will. He is inspired by her craving for blood, for her need for divine retribution for crimes within the family. This is the passage where he realizes exactly what he's going to do to his brother, just how he's going to get his revenge, and God's it is quite the plan for revenge. I'm not lying when I say this might be the most horrific story from Greek myth, tied maybe with Prockny and Philamella. Only this is that passage. Some greater thing, larger than the common and beyond the bounds of human use, is swelling in my soul, and it urges on my sluggish hands. I know not what it is, but it is some mighty thing. So let it be haste to you, my soul, and do it. It is a deed worthy of thiestes and of Atreus. Let each perform it. The Thracian house once saw a feast unspeakable, a monstrous crime, I grant, but it has been done before. Let my lust for revenge find something worse than this inspire my soul, Procne and Philimella. Two. My case is like to yours. Help me and urge on my hand. Let the father, with joyous greed carve his sons and devour his own flesh. It's more than enough. This way of punishment is pleasing. Meanwhile, where is he? Why does atreus so long live harmless? Already before my eyes flits the whole picture of the slaughter, his lost children, heaped up before their father's face. Oh soul, why do you shrink back in fear and halt before the deed come? You must dare it. The crowning outrage in this crime is that he himself shall do it. Oh, my God's nerds, this play is incredible. I'm so excited. I just can't get over how Seneca handles these stories. This cursed family has always been my favorite, honestly, Like I just I love how casually they've gotten. Literally multiple generations have been fanticide and forced cannibalism under their belts, let alone the volume of murder of other family members that comes after Atreus and Biestes. But Seneca went and took an already deeply disturbing play and just turned it up to a hundred, starting it out with the ghost of a man whose eternal punishment is the most famous of them all, and having him be urged on by a fury like that is fucking art, Seneca. I absolutely cannot wait to get to the next episode. We've barely even touched the horror that's gonna come, and I'm just so fucking excited. Should I be so excited for a story that involves the murder of children?

No?

No?

But is it my first time? Definitely not. I do love my girl madea so I pretend now, Oh it's myth after all, it's fucking epic. It's fine. Just like in my series on Seneca's Medea, I have been primarily referring to Emily Wilson's translation of the play and the shorter line or two quotes that I've been reading have always been from Wilson's translation. Any long extended passages I read, though, are from the Frank Justice Miller translation, which is in the public domain. And speaking of Emily Wilson's translations, her translation of the Iliad is out now, and I highly recommend anyone looking for an accessible, modern, and yet true to the Greek translation go pick that up. I haven't had a chance to read it just yet, but I've heard very good things. I've also been on the internet while the fragile men talk about it, and it has gotten under my skin in a way I didn't see coming. I've been pretty used to misogyny in the depths of classical studies. It comes to me quite often. It's deeply infused into so much of the content that we have from the ancient Greek and Roman world. And I'm not even talking about the original sources themselves, just like the translations even right like from the last few hundred years, it's in there. Emily Wilson, among others, is creating translations that are based on the ancient Greek, that are faithful translations of those ancient sources, and which still serve a feminist purpose, not some you know women inherit the earth purpose, though that would be cool. No, just like this base level of equality, translating words as they stand in the ancient Greek without infusing them with misogyny, whether you know past versions of that were intentional or accidental, Taking words like well women and translating it as women rather than slat or whore. That's all she's doing. And yet there is this enormous population of people, men who have been convinced that she has somehow adapted or like changed the Iliad to fit her narrative. It is all tied up and her being a woman in this space translating a work like the Iliad, very specifically one that is so tied to war and has so many men convinced that it is all about the glory of men during wartime. Any reasonable person who has read the Iliad knows that that's not what it's about at all. It is about the horror of war, the cost of war, how there are no heroes in war, No matter which side you're on, It is not a pro war text, and reading it as one is delusional. It's also not a pro Greek text. It's an oral tradition examining the horrors of war, and even the version of it that we have today in its purest, most ancient Greek form is still hundreds of years removed from the original tradition and likely was infused with its own additional misogyny that didn't exist before it was put to you know, quote unquote paper. It is all an ancient game of telephone and Homer is no exception anyway, translating text through a feminist lens. That is, you know, equality in the language is a good fucking thing, and we need to support the people doing it so that more people get to do it. That we now have translations of ancient texts that render women as human beings rather than objects or worse, you know, sexualized monsters is an incredible thing. We need more of it. It is the only way to continue bringing people that aren't seusstero men into the fold. It is the rest of our turn to have this base. Damn it. Let us have this one fucking thing. And for that matter, it's also fine to just like not like Wilson's translation. That's fine. Not everything has to be for everyone. But I want to make clear with the arguments that she has changed to the Iliad, that she has inserted some kind of new like girl power is absolute nonsense, that is, on its face, not so thinly veiled misogyny. As if I had time for a rant like that in an episode already this long, six thousand words, but well, it took up multiple days of my life last week trying to defend a woman's right to translate the Iliad and defend myself as a woman in this field who is you know, seeking equality and representation, And it became exhausting into moral life in a way that I have not actually experienced before. Plus I love a feminist rant, you know. All right, Let's end the episode with a short and sweet five star review from one of you lovely listeners. This one comes from a user whose name I'm not gonna try to pronounce as a word. You know. It was like C I E H O. M. S. Kik from the States. Great podcast. Really enjoy this podcast. A few episodes in, but it's super fun. Thank you, short and sweet. I loved it. Let's talk about Mith's Baby is written and produced by me Live Albert michaelas Smith is the hermes to My Olympians, My assistant producer. The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeartMedia. Listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Help me continue bringing you the world of rig mythology and the ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron, where you'll get bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon dot com slash Myt's Baby, or click the link in this episode's description. I am live and I love this shit, particularly when it's wild, this wild level of fucked up, like Seneca. You are an artist

But is it my first time? Definitely not. I do love my girl madea so I pretend now, Oh it's myth after all, it's fucking epic. It's fine. Just like in my series on Seneca's Medea, I have been primarily referring to Emily Wilson's translation of the play and the shorter line or two quotes that I've been reading have always been from Wilson's translation. Any long extended passages I read, though, are from the Frank Justice Miller translation, which is in the public domain. And speaking of Emily Wilson's translations, her translation of the Iliad is out now, and I highly recommend anyone looking for an accessible, modern, and yet true to the Greek translation go pick that up. I haven't had a chance to read it just yet, but I've heard very good things. I've also been on the internet while the fragile men talk about it, and it has gotten under my skin in a way I didn't see coming. I've been pretty used to misogyny in the depths of classical studies. It comes to me quite often. It's deeply infused into so much of the content that we have from the ancient Greek and Roman world. And I'm not even talking about the original sources themselves, just like the translations even right like from the last few hundred years, it's in there. Emily Wilson, among others, is creating translations that are based on the ancient Greek, that are faithful translations of those ancient sources, and which still serve a feminist purpose, not some you know women inherit the earth purpose, though that would be cool. No, just like this base level of equality, translating words as they stand in the ancient Greek without infusing them with misogyny, whether you know past versions of that were intentional or accidental, Taking words like well women and translating it as women rather than slat or whore. That's all she's doing. And yet there is this enormous population of people, men who have been convinced that she has somehow adapted or like changed the Iliad to fit her narrative. It is all tied up and her being a woman in this space translating a work like the Iliad, very specifically one that is so tied to war and has so many men convinced that it is all about the glory of men during wartime. Any reasonable person who has read the Iliad knows that that's not what it's about at all. It is about the horror of war, the cost of war, how there are no heroes in war, No matter which side you're on, It is not a pro war text, and reading it as one is delusional. It's also not a pro Greek text. It's an oral tradition examining the horrors of war, and even the version of it that we have today in its purest, most ancient Greek form is still hundreds of years removed from the original tradition and likely was infused with its own additional misogyny that didn't exist before it was put to you know, quote unquote paper. It is all an ancient game of telephone and Homer is no exception anyway, translating text through a feminist lens. That is, you know, equality in the language is a good fucking thing, and we need to support the people doing it so that more people get to do it. That we now have translations of ancient texts that render women as human beings rather than objects or worse, you know, sexualized monsters is an incredible thing. We need more of it. It is the only way to continue bringing people that aren't seusstero men into the fold. It is the rest of our turn to have this base. Damn it. Let us have this one fucking thing. And for that matter, it's also fine to just like not like Wilson's translation. That's fine. Not everything has to be for everyone. But I want to make clear with the arguments that she has changed to the Iliad, that she has inserted some kind of new like girl power is absolute nonsense, that is, on its face, not so thinly veiled misogyny. As if I had time for a rant like that in an episode already this long, six thousand words, but well, it took up multiple days of my life last week trying to defend a woman's right to translate the Iliad and defend myself as a woman in this field who is you know, seeking equality and representation, And it became exhausting into moral life in a way that I have not actually experienced before. Plus I love a feminist rant, you know. All right, Let's end the episode with a short and sweet five star review from one of you lovely listeners. This one comes from a user whose name I'm not gonna try to pronounce as a word. You know. It was like C I E H O. M. S. Kik from the States. Great podcast. Really enjoy this podcast. A few episodes in, but it's super fun. Thank you, short and sweet. I loved it. Let's talk about Mith's Baby is written and produced by me Live Albert michaelas Smith is the hermes to My Olympians, My assistant producer. The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeartMedia. Listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Help me continue bringing you the world of rig mythology and the ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron, where you'll get bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon dot com slash Myt's Baby, or click the link in this episode's description. I am live and I love this shit, particularly when it's wild, this wild level of fucked up, like Seneca. You are an artist