Here’s a riddle for you: My dog barks at it playfully. My cat stares at it dumbly. The cardinals in my yard attack it aggressively. What is “it?" Here’s another clue... Research has shown that — as far as we know currently — the magpie is the only bird that actually understands what “it” is. How does this impact your walk with Jesus?
Curtin, Kate. Mornings. Not just on the radio. It's a podcast.
Too.
This is the riddle. My dog barks at it playfully. My cat stares at it dumbly. The Cardinals in my yard attack it aggressively. What is it? Our guest is going to tell us what it is, and, uh, Kevin is, uh, he's he's hanging out here with us, and he's like, uh oh. Well, all right, um, I came up with the riddle. So I guess that's cheating if you can actually tell us what it is. Kevin Burrell, he's the co-lead pastor at Stonebridge Church Community in Charlotte, North Carolina. Okay, so Kevin, lay it on us. What is it?
The answer is it's reflection.
Uh, reflection. So it's a mirror reflection.
Yeah, I can I can explain further.
Yeah, we're going to get into that in just a second. The cool thing is though, you call yourself this is this is so wonderful because I love this and I love birds. Okay. So I'm really into this. The magpie in the mirror is the the title of his article that we have. You call your you call yourself not just a pastor, an ornithologist.
I wish I could take credit for that word. It's such a good word. Right? Yeah. John Stott, the famed British theologian, he was also just an avid birder. And he wrote a book called The Birds Are Teachers. And in that he dropped that wonderful word describing himself. And it stuck. So my my website is ornithology.com. And it's a great place for people who like birds and who want to ponder maybe the reflections that might come for us as Christians and how to live our lives, and trying to find birds as analogies for it. So it's a great word, I agree.
Yeah, like Jesus said, consider the birds of the air and the sermon on the Mount. So Jesus was I think Jesus was a birder as well.
I think it's a Savior sanctioned command. So I do too, he told us. He told us to do it. So it probably doesn't carry the same weight as some of his other commands. But isn't it good to know that he maybe seems to appreciate this hobby? So yeah. That's great.
Okay, well, let's talk about the whole magpie in the mirror thing. So. All right. Reflection a mirror. Obviously. The test. The mirror test, so to speak. How does it work? How they tested this.
Right, right. So now if you think about it, putting your own pet in front of a mirror, usually they kind of. They seem to be they don't seem to register that that's them. Right. And most animals don't. There's actually only a short, very short list of mammals that can look at a mirror. They've done they call this the mirror test. They look at the mirror and are able to associate that image with themselves. And I can tell you how they do that in a minute. But that list of animals that can do that is very short. It's dolphins, orca whales, apes and elephants. And then this bird, the magpie. And as far as we know, they're the only ones right now that we know that can do this, that they they will look in the mirror. We for the experiment, we would put a sticker or a odorless dye on their throat or on their, on their chest someplace where they wouldn't be able to see it unless they were looking in the mirror. And if they look in the mirror and they they scratch at that spot on themselves, then obviously they know where the spot is. And so the magpie is the only bird we know that can do it, the only non-mammal that can do it. Even a baby doesn't do this till like 18 months, a human baby. So it's it's it's a neat trick. Yeah. Wow. So there's a there's a self-awareness there that we're, you know, we magpies are related to crows and ravens and yeah some of those they're the, they're the, the top birds as far as intelligence go in the in the bird kingdom. Right. We were.
Talking about.
Crows okay.
Yeah Kate launched into remember that day Kate. Yeah we're talking about how intelligent crows are. What was it? They get revenge.
They will. They know good people. If you are good to a crow, they'll bring you something shiny or something that they found. But if you misbehave around them, if you are mean to them, not only will they seek revenge, they go back and tell everybody else that they know all their crows and their children, that you're a bad person and they should seek revenge on you.
I mean, I know there have been studies. It's it's brutal. The University of Seattle, there's a professor there who's done all sorts of studies on this and yeah, all the all the crows in Seattle hate this guy because he's banded them. He's been in their nests generationally. Like exponentially. The crow population in Seattle just goes after this guy whenever he's out in public. It's like the.
Birds Alfred Hitchcock.
It's really bad. Yeah. And yet. Yeah, just down the street. You're. You're right. Kate, there's, um, there's this girl that feeds the birds, feeds the crows, and they they bring her gifts. They they go and find, in fact, one guy, Uh, he. I think he was talking to the crows one morning as he's putting out all this, this slop for them. Right? And just he does this every morning and they, they, they're, they're flocking around him. And he just says humorously, hey, I bring you guys this every morning. Why don't you guys ever bring me anything? And later that afternoon, he comes out and there's one of those little candy valentine hearts sitting in the middle of the feeder with the word love on it. I'm not making this up. Oh my goodness, that's classic. Since that moment, they regularly bring him little trinkets and so who knows what's going on in a in a in a crow's head. That's amazing.
Right? Be good to the crows.
Yeah. Be good to the crows. They carry a grudge. Yeah they do.
But you know they carry a grudge.
The next generation, they carry a grudge.
I think there are crows that are yelling at this guy in Seattle, and they don't even know why. They don't even know. It's just been passed on from year to year. That's that's probably a sobering reality for us, too. We can carry a grudge, intergenerationally. And we're really not quite sure why we're doing it.
See this? This is just like Jesus. He was. Look at the birds of the air. Here's a teachable moment coming at you. That's.
Yeah. That's perfect right there.
Hey, what about the Ravens? What's the difference between a raven and a crow? Do you know?
Well, they're similar. They're definitely related. Ravens are going to be a lot bigger, and they've got a bit of a shaggier look appearance to them. A thicker bill as well. And you can definitely tell by their call they've got a croaker call. But the it's believed that the the smartest bird on the planet is a crow raven. There's a I guess on the eastern Hemisphere there's a bird called the New Caledonian crow. And it can create it doesn't just make tools, it makes tools to make tools. And so it's thinking three steps ahead. It's it's it's it can make it can take a shorter stick to be able to get it a longer stick to be able to get at the food it wants to get things like that. It's a I could keep going but yeah. No that's that's right.
Pebbles in a bottle to bring the water level up.
Yeah, I.
Mean, they're smart.
I thought the smartest bird was the African grey parrot.
Well, they're up there, but people think that this New Caledonian crow is top of top of the charts. So there's also apparently there's crows in Japan. I love this story. They, they they've got these nuts that they can't crack with their beak. So they figured out how to adapt to urban traffic flow. And they'll sit on a power pole or whatever and wait for the light to turn red. When the cars stop, they'll go. They'll fly down, and they'll lay a nut or two in front of the tires of the car, and then they fly away and they wait for the light to turn green. And of course the nut gets crushed. Then they wait for they they don't go for it yet. They wait for the light to turn red. They're clearly looking at the light when the light turns red. Then they go down and they get to eat the, the the shattered, the shattered nut. So I had no.
Idea.
They are figuring us out. Yes, they've learned.
They might win if we don't get.
Better, we can watch your back. We are watching up here. Yeah, right.
Well, you know what? What about the story of Elijah and the ravens bringing him meat by the brook Cherith and all of that? That's kind of interesting, because they were considered unclean animals as well. There's a very interesting to think about.
Exactly. No, I think that I have heard pastors say that, you know, these birds are bringing Elijah kind of a the I guess, the, the, the effect of maybe a like a filet mignon in the desert, but I don't I don't think so. I think these guys were considered unclean and whatever, whatever they were bringing him, they probably. I bet Elijah would just cook it well done and not ask any questions. So but it was a provision nonetheless, right. So and we're reminded of ravens in other places in Scripture too. You know, I'm sure Elijah was looking every day for a raven to feed him, but Noah was watching for the raven as well. And yeah, there's a it's a good picture of provision for sure.
Okay. We're going to talk more about magpies and what they are like. But I just noticed something the other day on Facebook. And Kate, if you want to give me a Christmas present.
Aha.
Have you seen the bird buddies?
No, the bird buddies.
You know what I'm talking about, Kevin. A bird.
Buddy. I have, I have a knockoff of a bird buddy. Yeah, it's it's a cheaper version, but yes, they're phenomenal.
It's a feeder with a camera. And you can actually, you know, you have an app and it identifies the birds that visit the feeder. And also.
One for $29.
You can you can name it, you can name these birds. So tell me what you have Kevin I'm curious now.
Well mine's a less expensive version of it. And it's essentially it's a security camera with a bird with a right next to a bird feeder, a bird feeder. It's a ring.
Cam for birds, is what it is.
So I get an alert whenever I. There's a bird in the feeder, which is pretty rough for me because I get alerts. That means all the time, like I'm preaching and I'm getting alerts. Right. But it just says there's motion in the feeder. So I have to I have to take a look. And it's always this family of cardinals. I don't get a lot of variety here. They they definitely have taken over my feeder. The Cardinals have. But occasionally I get something else. So I get a squirrel. Take a five second clip of of the the video of this bird in the feeder. And I did discover the raccoons that were getting in my feeder at night. That was fun too. But but the bird buddy actually ids the bird for you. And then. So the text alert says there's an eastern bluebird in your feeder, not just there's a motion in your feeder, which is pretty nifty. Yeah. That's cool.
Those things are not cheap. I think they're like 150, 200 bucks right there.
202 79 for one of them.
Yeah. Solar roof. The solar powered ones are over 300. Yeah. And you really need that. If the feeder is not right next to the house, you really need.
You know, I think our, our friend JB, he has, like, a little window next to a bird feeder and a little camera there.
Oh he does. Just from.
The inside. Yeah. It's an identifier. Any of the. You know. But. Yeah.
Yeah, it's a poor man's bird, buddy. That's right. That is. No, that's a very poor man's bird, buddy.
That's what consider the birds. Yeah. No, that's very cool. You're not getting one from me, but it's very cool.
I thought I'd try. You never know till you ask.
You can ask.
Oh. All right, so Kevin's going to be hanging out with us, and we have his article. He's got some wonderful spiritual parallels here. We'll talk more about magpies and stuff too. Uh, coming up. But we made the article testable. And again, if you go to his website, his blog, The Gospel According to Birds, I mean, this is just ornithology.com is the place.
Thank you for taking some time to listen to this episode of the Curtin Kate Mornings podcast. We always welcome a review with your thoughts and comments, and please feel free to subscribe and follow us as well.
If you've got us on this bird thing where we're learning so much, whether it be the ravens, the crows, what have you when it comes to the magpies, how smart are they?
Right, well we like we know that they've got this capacity for self-awareness that I know none of the birds in my feeder seem to have. They they kind of aggressively attack my car. Um, car reflection in the mirror of the side view mirror, whatever it is. And yet the magpie has the capacity to look in a mirror and to say, yeah, that's me. And for me, that, you know, as a as a pastor, I'm always thinking in terms of analogy. And I love that, you know, I think we can take whatever, uh, whatever, uh, things we see in the created order and we can see the Lord at work in those. And, you know, I think it's good for all of us to pay attention to something, whether that's, uh, the stars or mushrooms or trees or our gardening or whatever it is, is just a it's a it'd be a shame to miss those things. But for me, it's birds. And when I read that about magpies, I thought of David and Nathan and the idea that, um, you know, David was incapable of seeing his own reflection in the mirror after his affair and cover up murder and all the rest. And it took a prophet coming into the room and kind of holding the mirror up to his face and saying, hey, this is, um, this is you. And unlike many people, David was able to look in the mirror and say, you're right. That is that is me. I see the spot there. So that was that's kind of where the the article went from there.
I like that because I've heard the, the analogy presented that the Ten Commandments, basically they are commandments, but what they really are, they are a mirror. So we can see our true spiritual condition. Uh, you know, and where we are, you know, we're lost. And what? I'm saved. Okay. What are you saved from? An eternity in hell. Jesus came to die for our sins on the cross. He rose from the grave. We place our faith in him. But you see, you just. How can you be saved if you don't know? That's. You're lost, right?
Right? No. I love that image of the law as a mirror. And what I love about it especially is that, you know, if I can, I can look at myself in a mirror and I can see the issues. I can see what needs to be addressed. I can see the problems, but I can't. The mirror can't fix it. I can look in the mirror all day long, but the mirror can't, can't, can't comb my hair or wash my face or address the things that need to be addressed. And so what you just said, I mean, that's we need Jesus as the fulfillment of the law to come and to to to actually do the things that the law couldn't do. And so the law is great to show me my need. And then it points me, you know, that that that guilt points me to a savior. And so, yeah, I'm with you on that. I think that that's a beautiful analogy.
To extend the metaphor maybe a little further. What about me wanting to gaze into the mirror? And I'm focusing so much on myself, I cannot see anyone or anything else but me.
Right. Well, that's a distorted mirror too, right? I mean, we need to be able to look in a mirror accurately. And that's the trick, because I think of myself often when I'm looking in the mirror, it's one of those distorted funhouse mirrors that makes me look taller than I should or thinner than I am, or whatever that is. And so we need to be able to assess ourselves accurately. I think that's what Nathan was able to do for David. He painted the picture of just an injustice, you know. Can you believe that this, that there's this king who would, out of his riches, ignore his sheep and go kill the sheep of this one guy who, you know, treated the sheep as a pet and who loved it. And David is incensed by that. How dare this man do that? Well, that was allowing him then to step into that image clearly, because he was able when when Nathan shifted the picture and said, actually, David, I'm talking about you. David was able to see it because he was able to see it maybe in something else. And maybe that makes it easier then for us to see it in ourselves.
Well that's.
True.
You know, actually seeing our spiritual condition, you know, and conviction. Okay. There's a difference between conviction and condemnation. Conviction from the Holy Spirit drives us back to the Lord, drives us back to God. That's conviction, but condemnation. Oh, the devil uses that as a tool. We keep looking at our own reflections. Boy, I am so unworthy. Look what I just did. And I feel condemned. How can I even go to God and ask for forgiveness? I've failed for the umpteenth time. Um. And and if we gaze upon our behavior, if you will, and we feel discouraged because sanctification growing to be more like Jesus, we're not earning our salvation. Justification. Put your faith in Jesus. He paid your sin debt in full. But out of that we grow to be more like him. But sometimes it's one step forward, two steps back, and we can look in the mirror and we're like, you know what? I don't see that much of a change. And I'm very discouraged. Kevin, what would you say to somebody who's in that boat?
Well, I think the difference there between conviction and condemnation is, is understanding the purpose of guilt. I mean, guilt does have a purpose, and it is to help us see our need for a Savior and is to lead us to the cross. So for the Christian, I think of guilt as like the it's the Amazon delivery. You know, it's going to take you right to the doorstep. But then at that point, guilt has done its job. It would be weird for the delivery man to just kind of hang out on the porch afterwards because he's made the delivery. If if guilt has led us to to the foot of the cross, then we understand that that's that, you know, Jesus has brought us to that place so that we could experience the promise of no condemnation in Christ. And so to to see, I mean, to to be able to see ourselves at that point. And this is a mirror as well, to be able to see ourselves in the completed work of Christ, to be able to see ourselves at the pinnacle of his acceptance and and man. One day we're going to look in the mirror and we're going to see his perfected image in us. And so to be able to understand like that's that's the purpose for which Jesus came, that's what he's doing now. And I think that frees us. So now we don't live under condemnation. God doesn't want us to continue to feel the weight of the the heaviness of guilt and shame for the same sin. He wants to lead us to the cross that paid for that. And so conviction leads to freedom. Condemnation is just it's a that's a dead end road. Does that make sense?
Yeah. Totally does. Yes. And the mirror itself is we gaze at our reflection there. Yes. Just to reiterate, it can produce pride in us and vanity, or it can humble us. And it's walking that fine line. So you have to know, though, your true spiritual state, like I said, to really have a need of Jesus. And I think sometimes, Kevin, we we share the gospel without letting people know, you know, Jesus loves you and he forgives you. And we maybe we present that in kind of a generic and vague way. When we really need to be presenting, you have to tell the whole story. I need to know how lost I really am before I can reach up my hand to, you know, to know that I need to be saved. I know I'm kind of parking on that whole idea, but when it comes to actually sharing the gospel with others, how would you recommend that we do this? Because, you know, we so many times we talk ourselves out of these opportunities to share the good news, but we don't want to encourage a false conversion without really telling people the full gospel that hell is real. God is holy and forgiving and just as well. And in his mercy and his justice meet at the cross and and all of that. And and to bring conviction is necessary before they can embrace salvation. So how do we lead people in a conversation in that direction?
That's great. Good question. And you know, my my thought on that. I feel like that so often. What everything that you just said, we we know those things. If we've been walking with the Lord for any, any length of time, we understand it. And yet we're so bad at appropriating it when we share it. Um, and the reason is because we don't push it through the story of our own lives and demonstrate our own need for a savior. So in other words, it's if I if I miss that, then what I'm basically saying when I talk to people is, let me tell you what you need, but I'm okay. Thanks. But instead, for me to be able to say, let me tell you what what changed this has made in my life. Let me tell you why I was held bound and why I needed a Savior and to be able to. In other words, it's that mirror. It's that true assessment of myself to to recognize that I'm, to quote one of my professors from seminary, I'm a, I'm a beggar telling another beggar where I found bread, and to be able to push my the gospel realities of forgiveness and the need that I have for a Savior through my own life. Um, I think allows me to come alongside somebody rather than to wag a finger at them. And I hope that that there's a winsomeness in that. Maybe what I'm trying to say is, as a pastor, I see one of my roles in the pulpit as being the chief repenter. Uh, and to demonstrate what repentance looks like to the congregation. And if I'm going to tell stories about myself as illustrations from the pulpit, I'm not going to tell stories that make me look good. I'm going to tell stories that demonstrate my need for Christ.
Yeah, that's so good. By the way, I do need your advice on something else here, Kevin. If I could just kind of slip this in at the very end of our conversation. I am trying, and I have been trying for years to convince my wife that I need a toucan as a pet. So she keeps saying that they don't make good pets. So I'm at Busch Gardens here, right? And I'm hanging out. They drop me off at the toucan cage, if you will, the toucan habitat. They go and ride roller coasters and have a great time. See the shows and I'm hanging out with the toucans. I can see it now. If I have a toucan, I'm going to name him Sam. Tell me about toucans. Do you think it's going to make a good pet?
Well, one doesn't make a good pet, but two can.
Okay. That was I didn't even see that coming.
Oh, no.
I'm sorry. I feel like you set me up for that. I did, do I set you up?
But I didn't even know I was setting you up.
It just felt like.
It was going that way. I'm sorry. That's a dad joke.
I'm a dad. I'm really sorry. That's okay.
We love dad jokes around here.
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