Lots of smart, high achieving people learned to greet pain with stoicism: by being mature and responsible, even as kids. 



But what happens when you can’t maintain the facade of having your sh*t entirely together? Do you ever get to be less than Super Human? 



In this episode we cover: 


Perfectionism as a coping mechanism for all kinds of emotional wounds
Is distraction bad for you? 
When the worst has already happened, how do you control your anxiety? 
Is there any good way to tell kids that someone they love is dying? 
Working within systems where vulnerability is punished (looking at you, medicine & law)
How medical aid in dying has changed over the years



Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.





“I live with a constant fear of liking anyone or anything too much lest I lose it.” - Laurel Braitman





Related episodes:

Connection Is the Best Medicine: with Dr. Rana Awdish



Elise Loehnen: The 7 Deadly Sins and the Crown of Sadness



Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses





About our guest:

Laurel Braitman is a New York Times bestselling author - her new book, What Looks Like Bravery: An Epic Journey Through Loss to Love, is out now. She’s the founder of Writing Medicine, a global community of writing healthcare professionals, and the Director of Writing and Storytelling at the Medical Humanities and the Arts Program at the Stanford University School of Medicine. Find her at laurelbraitman.com and on IG @laurel_braitman.

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief



Additional resources:

Writing Medicine - Laurel Braitman’s global writing community for healthcare workers



Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 



Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Lots of smart, high achieving people learned to greet pain with stoicism: by being mature and responsible, even as kids. 
 
But what happens when you can’t maintain the facade of having your sh*t entirely together? Do you ever get to be less than Super Human? 
 
In this episode we cover: 
 
<ul>
<li aria-level="1">Perfectionism as a coping mechanism for all kinds of emotional wounds</li>
<li aria-level="1">Is distraction bad for you? </li>
<li aria-level="1">When the worst has already happened, how do you control your anxiety? </li>
<li aria-level="1">Is there any good way to tell kids that someone they love is dying? </li>
<li aria-level="1">Working within systems where vulnerability is punished (looking at you, medicine &amp; law)</li>
<li aria-level="1">How medical aid in dying has changed over the years</li>
</ul>
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief <a href="http://refugeingrief.com/wyg">course here</a>. 
 
“I live with a constant fear of liking anyone or anything too much lest I lose it.” - Laurel Braitman
 
Related episodes:
<a href="https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-its-ok-that-youre-not-ok-89497701/episode/connection-is-the-best-medicine-with-106164022/">Connection Is the Best Medicine: with Dr. Rana Awdish</a>
 
<a href="https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-its-ok-that-youre-not-ok-89497701/episode/elise-loehnen-the-7-deadly-sins-122426260/">Elise Loehnen: The 7 Deadly Sins and the Crown of Sadness</a>
 
Follow our show on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/refugeingrief/">Instagram</a>, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/refugeingrief/">Facebook</a>, <a href="https://twitter.com/refugeingrief">Twitter</a>, and <a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@refugeingrief">TikTok</a> @refugeingrief and <a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@itsokpod">@itsokpod</a> on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources &amp; courses
 
About our guest:
Laurel Braitman is a New York Times bestselling author - her new book, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781501158506">What Looks Like Bravery: An Epic Journey Through Loss to Love</a>, is out now. She’s the founder of Writing Medicine, a global community of writing healthcare professionals, and the Director of Writing and Storytelling at the Medical Humanities and the Arts Program at the Stanford University School of Medicine. Find her at <a href="https://www.laurelbraitman.com/">laurelbraitman.com</a> and on IG <a href="https://www.instagram.com/laurel_braitman/">@laurel_braitman</a>.
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074">It’s Ok that You’re Not OK</a>, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional resources:
<a href="https://www.laurelbraitman.com/writingmedicine">Writing Medicine</a> - Laurel Braitman’s global writing community for healthcare workers
 
Want to talk with Megan directly? <a href="https://www.patreon.com/megandevine">Join our patreon community</a> for live monthly Q&amp;A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? <a href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd0EjlSBXpJCil0TqCMp1sC-1SlWfBpC_jcVPOmrH5eJTMSFw/viewform">Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here</a>. 
 
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Life is full of difficult things, from tiny everyday disappointments to life-altering events. Everyone’s at least a little bit Not OK, something grief expert and psychotherapist Megan Devine knows from the inside out. In wide ranging, insightful, deep conversations, Megan talks with people about their often invisible losses - and what they’ve learned about being seen and supported in difficult times. 

With guests pulled from the front lines of entertainment, medicine, education, and activism, the conversations in It’s OK that You’re Not OK are funny, complex, emotional, and hopeful - maybe not your typical dinner party topics, but none of us are entirely OK, and it’s time we start talking about that.

New episodes each and every Monday, from the author of the best-selling book, It’s OK That You’re Not OK, and iHeartMedia. Find Megan online at @refugeingrief & follow the show @ItsOKPod

Life is full of difficult things, from tiny everyday disappointments to life-altering events. Everyone’s at least a little bit Not OK, something grief expert and psychotherapist Megan Devine knows from the inside out. In wide ranging, insightful, deep conversations, Megan talks with people about their often invisible losses - and what they’ve learned about being seen and supported in difficult times. 
With guests pulled from the front lines of entertainment, medicine, education, and activism, the conversations in It’s OK that You’re Not OK are funny, complex, emotional, and hopeful - maybe not your typical dinner party topics, but none of us are entirely OK, and it’s time we start talking about that.
New episodes each and every Monday, from the author of the best-selling book, It’s OK That You’re Not OK, and iHeartMedia. Find Megan online at @refugeingrief &amp; follow the show @ItsOKPod

It’s OK That You’re Not OK with Megan Devine

Overachieving As a Cry For Help: with Laurel Braitman

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/ca3eea1e-d2f0-4c5d-bbbf-b095013b102b/transcript

We know that healthcare workers are burned out and exhausted. Provider mental health is a huge issue… but are the institutions listening? 

This week on It’s OK, burnout expert Dr. Jessi Gold talks to us about (obviously) burnout, but also ways HCW* can start to change the workplace culture into one that actually values the human workforce. Sound unlikely? Listen in for Dr. Gold’s ideas for a grassroots movement - using the language of capitalism to get the c-suite to listen.

*We talk a bunch about HCW in this episode, but the topics involved are relevant to everyone who feels even a little bit exhausted by the pressures of the world. 

Dr. Gold’s new book, How Do You Feel?: One Doctor's Search for Humanity in Medicine, is out on October 8, 2024. For more info visit drjessigold.com



In this episode we cover:


Can you be emotionless and still practice good medicine?
How medical training seeks out perfectionists, and then uses that perfectionism as a way to wring out even more work 
Why you can’t self-care your way out of burnout, but you can support yourself inside the catastrophe
Ways to get the administration to start valuing their workforce (spoiler: it involves speaking the language of capitalism!) 



We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.



Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.



About our guest:

Dr. Jessi Gold is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at Washington University School of Medicine in St Louis. She’s a nationally recognized expert on healthcare worker mental health and burnout (particularly during the pandemic). Her work can be found in major publications like The New York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and TIME. Find the “burned out burnout expert” at drjessigold.com and on social media @drjessigold



Pre-order Dr. Gold’s book -How Do You Feel?: One Doctor's Search for Humanity in Medicine



About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief



Additional Resources:

Physician Support Line on social @shrink.rapping



American Foundation for Suicide Prevention on social @afspnational



Clinician Well-Being Knowledge Hub developed by @theNAMedicine



The Emotional PPE Project



Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 



Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You're Not OK andHow to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed



Books and resources may contain affiliate links.



Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us atrefugeingrief.com

We know that healthcare workers are burned out and exhausted. Provider mental health is a huge issue… but are the institutions listening? 
This week on It’s OK, burnout expert Dr. Jessi Gold talks to us about (obviously) burnout, but also ways HCW* can start to change the workplace culture into one that actually values the human workforce. Sound unlikely? Listen in for Dr. Gold’s ideas for a grassroots movement - using the language of capitalism to get the c-suite to listen.
*We talk a bunch about HCW in this episode, but the topics involved are relevant to everyone who feels even a little bit exhausted by the pressures of the world. 
Dr. Gold’s new book, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781982199777">How Do You Feel?: One Doctor's Search for Humanity in Medicine</a>, is out on October 8, 2024. For more info visit <a href="https://www.drjessigold.com/how-do-you-feel-book-by-jessi-gold-md/">drjessigold.com</a>
 
In this episode we cover:
 
<ul>
<li aria-level="1">Can you be emotionless and still practice good medicine?</li>
<li aria-level="1">How medical training seeks out perfectionists, and then uses that perfectionism as a way to wring out even more work </li>
<li aria-level="1">Why you can’t self-care your way out of burnout, but you can support yourself inside the catastrophe</li>
<li aria-level="1">Ways to get the administration to start valuing their workforce (spoiler: it involves speaking the language of capitalism!) </li>
</ul>
 
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief <a href="http://refugeingrief.com/wyg">course here</a>.
 
About our guest:
Dr. Jessi Gold is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at Washington University School of Medicine in St Louis. She’s a nationally recognized expert on healthcare worker mental health and burnout (particularly during the pandemic). Her work can be found in major publications like The New York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and TIME. Find the “burned out burnout expert” at <a href="https://www.drjessigold.com/">drjessigold.com</a> and on social media @drjessigold
 
Pre-order Dr. Gold’s book - <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781982199777">How Do You Feel?: One Doctor's Search for Humanity in Medicine</a>
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074">It’s Ok that You’re Not OK</a>, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional Resources:
<a href="https://www.physiciansupportline.com/">Physician Support Line</a> on social <a href="https://www.instagram.com/shrink.rapping">@shrink.rapping</a>
 
<a href="https://afsp.org/">American Foundation for Suicide Prevention</a> on social @afspnational
 
<a href="https://nam.edu/resource-toolkit-clinician-well-being-knowledge-hub/">Clinician Well-Being Knowledge Hub</a> developed by <a href="https://twitter.com/theNAMedicine">@theNAMedicine</a> 
 
<a href="https://emotionalppe.org/">The Emotional PPE Project</a>
 
Want to talk with Megan directly? <a href="https://www.patreon.com/megandevine">Join our patreon community</a> for live monthly Q&amp;A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? <a href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd0EjlSBXpJCil0TqCMp1sC-1SlWfBpC_jcVPOmrH5eJTMSFw/viewform">Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here</a>. 
 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074"> It’s OK That You're Not OK</a> and<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781683643708"> How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed</a>
 
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
 
Follow our show on<a href="https://www.instagram.com/refugeingrief/"> Instagram</a>,<a href="https://www.facebook.com/refugeingrief/"> Facebook</a>,<a href="https://twitter.com/refugeingrief"> Twitter</a>, and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@refugeingrief"> TikTok</a> @refugeingrief and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@itsokpod"> @itsokpod</a> on TikTok.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at<a href="https://refugeingrief.com/"> refugeingrief.com</a>

Protecting Your Mental Health in the Healthcare Workplace, with the Burned Out Burnout Expert, Dr. Jessi Gold

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/f206f37c-d279-47ee-8ca0-b18a010fbb06/transcript

The world is such a hot mess: every day a new disaster, a new human rights catastrophe. It can just feel… endless. Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch joins us to talk about outrage and trauma and community building - it’s like the greatest hits of modern culture. But mostly, she joins us to talk about art - specifically, the ways that storytelling helps us band together and work towards the world we all want. 

PS: Listen all the way through so you don’t miss Aubrey’s slightly sinister but ultimately functional ideas on hope. 



In this episode we cover: 

- The relationship between rage and creation: when there’s so much wrong with the world all you can do is scream

- Why taking action to change things matters - even if your actions won’t save everyone

- Women and anger: hoo boy, it’s a whole thing. 

- Why healing inside trauma is actually kind of… boring. 

- Connecting through the power of storytelling



We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.



Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.





About our guest:

Aubrey Hirsch is the author of Why We Never Talk About Sugar, a collection of short stories, and This Will Be His Legacy, a flash fiction chapbook. Her stories, essays and comics have appeared widely in print and online in places like American Short Fiction, Vox, TIME,The New York Times, The Rumpus, The Toast, and in the New York Times bestselling anthology, Not That Bad. Her essay on trauma and surviving gun violence is a must read. Find it here.



About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief



Additional Resources:

Aubrey occasionally teaches comics for “non-artists.” Check her TW @aubreyhirsch for announcements. 

Aubrey publishes new comics and essays on Roxane Gay’s substack, The Audacity. 

Aubrey’s written on so many topics relevant to human life. Find a long list of awesome essays on her website, aubreyhirsch.com

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You're Not OK andHow to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us atrefugeingrief.com

The world is such a hot mess: every day a new disaster, a new human rights catastrophe. It can just feel… endless. Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch joins us to talk about outrage and trauma and community building - it’s like the greatest hits of modern culture. But mostly, she joins us to talk about art - specifically, the ways that storytelling helps us band together and work towards the world we all want. 
PS: Listen all the way through so you don’t miss Aubrey’s slightly sinister but ultimately functional ideas on hope. 
 
In this episode we cover: 
- The relationship between rage and creation: when there’s so much wrong with the world all you can do is scream
- Why taking action to change things matters - even if your actions won’t save everyone
- Women and anger: hoo boy, it’s a whole thing. 
- Why healing inside trauma is actually kind of… boring. 
- Connecting through the power of storytelling
 
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief <a href="http://refugeingrief.com/wyg">course here</a>.
 
About our guest:
Aubrey Hirsch is the author of <a href="https://amzn.to/4coZLad">Why We Never Talk About Sugar</a>, a collection of short stories, and <a href="https://squareup.com/market/lettered-streets-press/preorder-split-series-volume-aubrey-hirsch-alexis-pope">This Will Be His Legacy</a>, a flash fiction chapbook. Her stories, essays and comics have appeared widely in print and online in places like American Short Fiction, Vox, TIME, The New York Times, The Rumpus, The Toast, and in the New York Times bestselling anthology, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9780062413512">Not That Bad</a>. Her essay on trauma and surviving gun violence is a must read. <a href="https://audacity.substack.com/p/over-and-over-again">Find it here</a>.
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074">It’s Ok that You’re Not OK</a>, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional Resources:
Aubrey occasionally teaches comics for “non-artists.” Check her TW <a href="https://twitter.com/aubreyhirsch">@aubreyhirsch</a> for announcements. 
Aubrey publishes new comics and essays on Roxane Gay’s substack, <a href="https://substack.com/profile/1849120-roxane-gay">The Audacity</a>. 
Aubrey’s written on so many topics relevant to human life. Find a long list of awesome essays on her website, <a href="https://aubreyhirsch.com/">aubreyhirsch.com</a>
Want to talk with Megan directly? <a href="https://www.patreon.com/megandevine">Join our patreon community</a> for live monthly Q&amp;A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? <a href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd0EjlSBXpJCil0TqCMp1sC-1SlWfBpC_jcVPOmrH5eJTMSFw/viewform">Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here</a>. 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074"> It’s OK That You're Not OK</a> and<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781683643708"> How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed</a>
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Follow our show on<a href="https://www.instagram.com/refugeingrief/"> Instagram</a>,<a href="https://www.facebook.com/refugeingrief/"> Facebook</a>,<a href="https://twitter.com/refugeingrief"> Twitter</a>, and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@refugeingrief"> TikTok</a> @refugeingrief and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@itsokpod"> @itsokpod</a> on TikTok.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at<a href="https://refugeingrief.com/"> refugeingrief.com</a>

Over and Over Again: Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch on the Power of Storytelling

If you look at social media with its reliance on meme-based psychology, you’d think that the Buddhist approach to life is to not let things get to you - that the true spiritual path helps you rise above such limited, unenlightened human feelings like grief, greed, and resentment. 



This week on It’s OK, Zen teacher Koshin Paley Ellison is here to tell you that your suffering deserves your attention. 



In this episode we cover: 



- How an experience of targeted violence shaped Koshin’s childhood, and what it’s taught him about the suffering of others

- Why it’s healthier to spend time in the “life is suffering” part of the 4 Noble Truths, rather than rushing to the other 3 as solutions

- How to work with the pain and the suffering in your own life, so that it doesn't fester and cause more harm

- Why going to the furniture store looking for milk is only going to lead to disappointment

- Koshin’s new book, Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion



We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.



Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.



About our guest:

Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, and Jungian psychotherapist who has devoted his life to the study and application of psychotherapy and Buddhism. Koshin co-founded the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, with his husband Chodo Robert Campbell, to transform the culture of care through contemplative practice by meeting illness, aging, and death with compassion and wisdom.



Koshin’s work has been featured in The New York Times, PBS, and CBS Sunday Morning among other media outlets. His newest book is Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion. Find him on IG @koshinpaleyellison



About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief



Additional Resources:

Chodo and Koshin joined us in season one of It’s Ok that You’re Not OK. Listen to that episode here. 



Learn about the New York Zen Center’s contemplative care program at zencare.org



Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 



Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You're Not OK andHow to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed



Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us atrefugeingrief.com

If you look at social media with its reliance on meme-based psychology, you’d think that the Buddhist approach to life is to not let things get to you - that the true spiritual path helps you rise above such limited, unenlightened human feelings like grief, greed, and resentment. 
 
This week on It’s OK, Zen teacher Koshin Paley Ellison is here to tell you that your suffering deserves your attention. 
 
In this episode we cover: 
 
- How an experience of targeted violence shaped Koshin’s childhood, and what it’s taught him about the suffering of others
- Why it’s healthier to spend time in the “life is suffering” part of the 4 Noble Truths, rather than rushing to the other 3 as solutions
- How to work with the pain and the suffering in your own life, so that it doesn't fester and cause more harm
- Why going to the furniture store looking for milk is only going to lead to disappointment
- Koshin’s new book, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781538708309">Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion</a>
 
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief <a href="http://refugeingrief.com/wyg">course here</a>.
 
About our guest:
Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, and Jungian psychotherapist who has devoted his life to the study and application of psychotherapy and Buddhism. Koshin co-founded the <a href="https://zencare.org/">New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care</a>, with his husband Chodo Robert Campbell, to transform the culture of care through contemplative practice by meeting illness, aging, and death with compassion and wisdom. 
Koshin’s work has been featured in The New York Times, PBS, and CBS Sunday Morning among other media outlets. His newest book is <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781538708309">Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion</a>. Find him on IG<a href="https://www.instagram.com/koshinpaleyellison/"> @koshinpaleyellison</a>
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074">It’s Ok that You’re Not OK</a>, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional Resources:
Chodo and Koshin joined us in season one of It’s Ok that You’re Not OK. <a href="https://open.spotify.com/episode/2dxk38ZeK0TbTXXpjVyzzV?si=UGWiBgzpRjawQbtbGRid7Q">Listen to that episode here</a>. 
 
Learn about the New York Zen Center’s contemplative care program at <a href="https://zencare.org/">zencare.org</a>
 
Want to talk with Megan directly? <a href="https://www.patreon.com/megandevine">Join our patreon community</a> for live monthly Q&amp;A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? <a href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd0EjlSBXpJCil0TqCMp1sC-1SlWfBpC_jcVPOmrH5eJTMSFw/viewform">Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here</a>. 
 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074"> It’s OK That You're Not OK</a> and<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781683643708"> How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed</a>
 
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Follow our show on<a href="https://www.instagram.com/refugeingrief/"> Instagram</a>,<a href="https://www.facebook.com/refugeingrief/"> Facebook</a>,<a href="https://twitter.com/refugeingrief"> Twitter</a>, and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@refugeingrief"> TikTok</a> @refugeingrief and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@itsokpod"> @itsokpod</a> on TikTok.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at<a href="https://refugeingrief.com/"> refugeingrief.com</a>

Untangled: Suffering & The 8-Fold Path with Koshin Paley Ellison

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/661a49e8-1a10-4324-911d-b17f0043f7e5/transcript

Overachieving As a Cry For Help: with Laurel Braitman

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It’s OK That You’re Not OK with Megan Devine

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