What should you do if someone wants to be friends, but you’re not into it? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY.
Welcome to part two of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.
In this episode we cover:
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
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About our guest:
Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back.
You might know her from her popular instagram channel @dr.alexandra.solomon, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at dralexandrasolomon.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
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This is it's okay that you're not okay, and I'm your host, Megan Devine. This week part two of my discussion about boundaries, how to make them, how to keep them, how to breach them when that's necessary, with special guests doctor Alexandra Solomon. Stay tuned, everybody Part two coming right up after this first break.
Before we get started. Two quick notes.
One, this episode is an encore performance.
I am on break working on a giant.
New project, so we're releasing a mix of our favorite episodes from the first three seasons of the show. This episode is from season one, in which I answered listener questions, sometimes on my own, sometimes with a guest. So if you want more of these Q and A style episodes, you can find the entire collection from season one wherever you get your podcasts.
Second note, while.
We cover a lot of emotional relational territory in our time here together, this show is to substitute for skilled support for the license mental health provider or for professional supervision related to your work. I really want you to take what you learn here, take your thoughts and your reflections out into your own world and talk about it all. Welcome back, friends, We have been talking to doctor Alexandra Solomon, author of Loving Bravely, on how to navigate the sticky business of boundaries while retaining kindness and curiosity. That is like the question or the topic of the ages. Okay, so our second listener question today is the other side of the story from our first question, how to step away from somebody when you know that the continued connection is not in your own best interest. You ready for this one?
I'm ready.
Let's do it, Dear Megan. I don't know how to distance myself from a friend without hurting her. I would really appreciate your advice. After a rough couple of years involving illness and some other major life changes, I just moved to a new place and I've been making new friends. There's one girl in this friend group who's had serious mental health issues herself, and she's been trying to get closer to me. She's quite vulnerable, and I just don't think I can offer her the thought, the love, the advice that she needs and deserves. I feel like I don't have the energy to be around her. But at the same time, because she is so vulnerable, I don't want to hurt her by ignoring her. So how can I distance myself from her without being mean? Thanks so much for your help. Okay, where do we start with this one?
Well, this is I mean, this is certainly a boundaries question, and it's really it's so tender, similar to our last one, I guess I would want to start by just like reflecting back to this listener that there's a lot of novelty and change in her life. Right, There's been some loss, Right, there was illness and other major life changes that may have involved loss and greed. And now she's stepping in and she's building new circles of connection and new relationships. So like I'm imagining her as kind of cracked wide open, right, She's everything is perhaps like in like super like technicolor clarity, you know, like as often as the case when we're like emerging from crisis. So I can imagine that she's just she's very sensitive to dynamics and focusing so much on her own healing and finding her own footing that she's really sensitive to not wanting to be responsible for somebody else. And so that's what that's the energy in this one particular dynamic is an energy where she's feeling put upon perhaps at a time when she is really needing to cent her her own wellness and her own needs, perhaps for the first time. Right, Maybe that's what this chapter is about for her, is like, you know, she's going to really take care of herself for the first time.
Perhaps ever, Yeah, it could be. We really don't know the whole backstory. What you really picked up there is, you know, I have gone through some stuff myself, and I know what it's like to feel snubbed or ignored or not cared for, and I don't want to do that to this person. And at the same time, I don't have the bandwidth to give them the support they deserve. So I think this is actually something that comes up a lot for a lot of people, whether there's a death involved or not.
I mean, just the exhaustion of being alive with your eyes open.
It's so much emotional bandwidth, right, And we've all got people in our lives who are in need of and deserving of a level of support that we just we just can't give.
So how do you cut somebody out without being the jerk?
Right? Well? And that was what was the word that she is. She wants to distance herself without being mean and that's you know, I think that that feels really gent. Like if this was a man writing about a male friend, I don't know that the same adjective would have been chosen. But certainly, as girls and women, we are really afraid to be mean. Right, all went through middle school. We all know that fear of exclusion, the fear, and so I think that there's a way in which that puts us at risk of confounding healthy boundaries with.
Cruelty or meanness.
It's what you're saying. It is she's really sensitive to not wanting to overpromise and underdeliver, and that is a generosity, right, that's actually a complete act of kindness to not promise this woman a kind of depth and regularity, you know, thought love advice. Doesn't want to want to promise to provide things that she knows darn well she's not going to be able to provide in an ongoing way. So I would really want her to remember as she figures out her next steps, which I think we ought to help and work on scripting for her, but I want her to remember that I hear a lot of kindness in this. Yeah, this in the way she's positioning herself here.
It's really interesting to think about that gender construct of for women and sort of that feminine end of the gender spectrum, like this idea that having boundaries isn't nice, that understanding what you can and can't provide is mean, but honestly, like if we think about it, that boils things down to this like win lose situation, Right, Like if I show up for this person, if I over deliver what I know that I'm capable of because they're deserving of love and support, then I kind of lose because I don't have this in me, but I'm going to give anyway because that's what I should do. So I lose, they win, or I win because I have good boundaries and I kind of distance myself from this person, but they lose because I'm being mean to them. Like there's this real transactional wind lose thing going on. I love the way that you reframed that of boundaries are an act of kindness. Right, this person, the person that we're talking about here, not the listener, but the friend in question or the potential friend in question, Like they deserve relationships that are available for them, and that saying I am not the right fit for you, is an act of love and kindness and community.
We just don't think of them that way, do we.
No.
No, No, In fact, I mean in that sort of like win lose scenario where if this if our question writer were to just like empty herself of all needs and wants and provide complete and total presence to this friend. In some ways, the subtle message is being conveyed to the friend is you can't do it on your own. You are incredibly weak and needy, and you can't there there's no internal resources and the only resource you have is me. So in some way right, in some way, yeah, to the hubans of it, in the way in which it would reinforce for this friend, Oh my gosh, you really are so sick and so ill equipped to handle your own life that this is the only way you can. There's a way there's almost like condescending rather than figuring out how to help her tap not just her internal resources but also like actual therapeutic resources.
Yeah.
That is such a fine and subtle and important point there, that like what we think we're doing very often when we are jumping into help somebody who hasn't asked for help, is we're sending the message that we don't think they can do it. It's actually this really condescending cutting down of somebody else, which which isn't the way that we usually think about that stuff. So we don't know what the situation is with this person, but we also don't want this listener to, as you said, completely empty themselves of all of their own needs so that they can reorganize their entire life to support this person whose only help is me in the world. Like there's oh gosh, there's so much in there involving being nice and air quotes, and that we think that being nice is the preferred thing to do, that having a boundary is actually being mean that we are the only source of support for somebody in the world and that they can't make it without us. Like there are just so many different layers.
It reminds me of.
One of the things we were talking about earlier is that relational self awareness, right, like being mindful of not making assumptions or presumptions about the other in this circumstance, but really looking at how is this feeling for me?
What comes up for me?
What do I need in this moment, and what are the ways that I might respond to this relational fork in the road with skill, kindness, and clarity.
That was one of the things I was thinking about. I don't know if this is like a term that you all that you use, but one of the terms that we use in the training model that I've been trained and is we talk about like the remote block operation, which is where you ask somebody like, what does this dynamic remind you of?
From your past?
And so I would I wonder, you know, as we if we imagine like what she might want to do next or need to do next, I would want her to begin with that remote block operation, and maybe she meditates on it or journals on it, like what does this dynamic remind me of? And she might go back to a memory of whatever when her dad was really depressed and she had to do everything for him, or a time when she was really helpless and people had, you know, whatever, the like what does this particular not of emotion and thoughts and urges kind of remind her of? And that might help her disentangle some ways in which the past might be shaping how she sees this situation, or at least help her feel kind of like two feet on the ground in the present moment as she moves into what.
She wants to do next.
Yeah, as you're speaking about that, I'm thinking of sort of defanging the situation, looking for the places that the dial got turned up really high because of past experiences, whether that is a dynamic where this listener had to take care of somebody else to their own detriment before or just messaging that they've had where the good thing to do is to give and give and give and give and give. We don't know what that is, So it's not that you sort of review and assess and reflect those things so that, like I don't know, you find your well of giving inside, Like you don't want to get stuck in that sort of thing, like, ah, we don't do this so that you can violate your own boundaries. No, but really more to look at, like how can I look for the high volume, high emotion elements of this so that I can more skillfully communicate my needs and my expectations in this relationship without being sort of broadsided by other things that could sort of farm in the background and monkey with things.
I love that.
I love that tool of reflection before action so that you can come to a sticky situation with as much skill as you possibly can. So as we start sort of looking at the close of this episode, we're not there yet, but I want to make sure that we have a couple of suggestions for this listener about you know, they've done their reflection, they understand that boundaries are a good thing and a kindness. What are some things that they might say to this potential friend to say, I'm not the friends you're looking for.
This idea I'm having, I want to talk through with you and get your take on it, because I think it's dicey. One thought I had was this that our our question writer is new to this friend group, which means there's a kind of history that she wasn't there for. So I have wondered wondering about what it might be like for her to say to another woman in the friend group. Hey, i'm finding that with you know, Elaine, I'm feeling this this in this, I'm noticing this in this. Is this something you've experienced before? How has it been for you? And the reason that I'm hesitant to even bring this up because I is that I don't want to create a triangle, just like trying our question, our question asker and this friend and then the you know Elaine. But in terms of just like resourcing, like what maybe maybe somebody in the friend group knows. Listen, this is how we've all handled it in the past. She responds really well to this, like there might just be a bit of history there that could be asked about in love. Provided in love, then our question asker is like, she's not reinventing the wheel, so it's dicey, and she'd have to really make sure she's coming at it from a place of care and not gossip and not triangulation. But what do you think about that as just like kind of a data gathering.
Yeah, definitely, my triangulation warning bells go off when we talk about asking somebody else in the group. What I do like, though, is perhaps a period of observation. As you said, she's new to this friend group, she's new to this area. There's a lot of data you can gain by observing, So that might be one thing is to sort of take a step back and observe what are the other relationships like with this one particular person. Is this a pattern that you're seeing? What other information can you gather and that might just help you understand what that person is looking for, which can inform the way that you sort of intervene or the things that you say. You can also get a sense of sort of who they are as a person and how the whole group works together. I'm a big fan of stand back and observe. It's my basic mo at all social gatherings, stand back and observe. So in addition to that, when this person is, you know, this potential friend or this member of the friend group is sort of coming to you with these bids for connection, which is what I hear in this listener question is there's some bids for connection happening, and I don't want to reciprocate, So coming up with a couple of things that you could say around like it sounds like what you're wrestling with is really heavy, and I don't have it in me to really listen to that right now. Maybe you want to offer something else. I I'd be happy to go for a walk with you. Don't offer something that you don't want to do. We don't want to like make things harder for future you. But I think you can sort of interrupt, intervene and connect in the ways that you would like to because the other thing is, if this person is a member of the friend group, you're going to see them, right, So you don't want to be like, I really don't like you. I'm not here for this sort of stuff. I would much rather prefer and if you just we just never spoke again. Like that is maybe a little over egging the custard there perhaps, so well, it's a great term, isn't it. You just what I met one of my favorites. Okay, but I think you can. I think you can do something like that, like take some time to reflect. Is there anything that I would do with this person? Maybe it's we could go for a walk, or we could go for tea. But I do need to let you know that having like really emotional or or really big discussions around emotional things is just not something that I can really show up for right now. Right I think there's there's a way. And this is one of the reasons this feels so sticky for me. Not the scripting so much, but just the thing is like this is personal, but it's not personal, right, Like we say no thank you to people all the time, right, Like if you're dating, or you're in a new place or like you meet somebody at work or a social thing and you just know that they're not your people. And in a way it is personal, like the things you're interested in are not the things that I'm interested in, like your ways of connecting or relating, or like you're a long distance biker. That's like, that's not me. So we say no thank you to people based on personal assessment all the time. So it's it's personal, but it's not a personal judgment. And I think that's where it gets a little bit easier for me, is it is personal, but it's not a personal judgment. So we're not saying thank you no because you're a terrible person. We're saying thank you no because this what's on offer here does not meet my needs or my interests at this time.
And all of the ways in which you have framed this, which I think is I think I agree with all of what you're saying, all the ways that you're framing it. Really it's putting ownership, responsibility, accountability on the person asking the questions. Right nowhere in that scripting, have you said, listen, friend, you are too much, You are too demanding. The things that you want are ridiculous, there's no there's no judgment.
It is just.
Saying, I, you know, I'm not able to meet you in this space. And I love also that I think I think she she does need to find a way to say something like, you know, one thing she could do is kind of kick the can down the street by saying, oh, I'm busy this Friday. Oh I can't go biking next Thursday. Oh I can't do that. But she's just she's just kind of, you know, kicking the can down the road. So I do think at some point she needs to turn, she will need to turn towards this and say, there are you know, these are the ways that I really enjoy being with you, and this this heavy conversation where I sometimes end up feeling really responsible or kind of loaded up with a lot of heavy stuff. I'm not I'm just not so available for right now. I would be curious to know how else you're resourcing yourself, like who you know, how else are you caring for yourself during this time? And how can I support and cheerlead for all of those other kinds of self care that you're doing so that we can maximize the kinds of connections that really feel good and reasonable and sustainable for both of us.
Yeah, you said kick the can down the road, like I do think you can buy yourself some time while you observe other dynamics.
Yes, well that's right, right, I think you can buy yourself some time.
And it does get harder to detangle yourself from relationships that aren't serving you the longer you let them roll on. Right, It gets harder to put a boundary in place if you've sort of violated your own wishes for a period of time, And that makes it honestly harder for in this scenario, the friend in question, right, Like, wait a minute, you let us go on for three months pretending that you were my friend when you really didn't want this. Like, that's not an active service either. So I think the real message here that you and I both sort of want to drill in not just for this listener, but for everybody listening, that boundaries are an active kindness and they're an act of love. They are a win win situation when those boundaries are delivered with skill and boundaries, I mean boundaries. I feel like boundaries are the things that you know as clinicians, as therapists, Like boundaries are pretty much all we ever talk about, right, no matter what we're talking about, we are talking about boundaries.
Boundaries are our friends.
That's right, well, all, yes, All it means is the space for you and I bump up against each other, and those are spaces that have to again and again be navigated and there aren't. The reason that she wrote you this letter is because this stuff is hard and it's not obvious, and we don't learn it in school, and we are I mean, she's concerned about coming across as mean because she's she's a caring person, right, She's not if she was a sociopath.
What we have in this conversation right forward.
So there's a lot of goodness in this.
Yeah, this, you know, this idea that each person is their own sovereign nation, and when you have a sovereign nation, you have borderlands, and boundaries are how we negotiate. How do we show up to those places that bump into others? I think, you know, like speaking into that full difficulty sit waiting boundaries as an act of love and kindness to ourselves and to others. I think that's actually a really beautiful end note for our time here together. Even though we can talk about boundaries forever and ever and ever. Boundaries are something that you talk about on your podcast, Reimagining Love. Of course, we are going to link to that in the show notes. But your podcast is just one of the many, many places that people can find you. So would you tell everybody about your books, your courses, anything else you would like them to know about. Where to soak up more of your kindness and your wisdom and your insight.
What do you get?
The best place to start is my website, doctor Alexander Solomon dot com, and there you can find your way to social media. I'm active on the Instagram and there's links to both of my books, Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back and yeah, and then I do. I've got a couple of e courses, one for therapists, but one for regular people called Intimate Relationships One on one, and then another course about trust for couples who are working on rebuilding trust in the wake of infidel or betrayal or deceit. So those are all different places to kind of continue to dive into the work of relational self awareness, which is lifelong work.
Yeah, it really really is. All right, thank you, my friend. Coming up next everybody, your weekly questions to carry with you, and how you can send in your question for me to use on the show. Don't miss that part, friends, We will be right back.
Each week.
I leave you with some questions to carry with you until we meet again. It's part of that whole This awkward stuff gets a lot easier with practice, and I definitely want you to practice. Look, boundaries are hard. There's a reason why doctor Alexandra and I said that, like basically everything we do can be boiled down to boundary practice. Boundaries are basically need negotiation between humans, and that can feel really overwhelming because the whole topic of making and enforcing boundaries can make people panic. This week, your students to carry with You is a two parter. Part one boundary awareness. We use boundaries all the time, we just don't usually think of them as boundaries. So part one is to recognize normal, daily, no big deal things that are actually boundaries in disguise so you can up your confidence about them. Yeah, on the lookout, did you tell somebody you want to tea instead of coffee? Did you hold your hand up to an oncoming car to let them know you were in the crosswalk and they needed to slow the hell down. Did you tell the maintenance or repair person that the days and times they offered wouldn't really work for you, and then you suggested other times. All those things are boundaries. You're already really good at boundaries. My friends, start recognizing them, it'll help you feel ready for part two, Part two of your assignment this week, one new boundary, or maybe one new communicated boundary, because a lot of people have boundaries that they've just never said out loud. Is there something that's been bugging you, high stakes or low stakes, doesn't really matter, something that you've avoided communicating. It could be something as simple as I'm not ready to talk first thing in the morning, would you mind waiting to share wordle with me until after I've had my coffee?
Or it could be.
Something bigger, like I need us to talk about how we're handling the money stress we're facing. Boundaries are not the easiest thing in the world, but they really are our best bet at building the kinds of relationships with ourselves and with others that we most want. Yeah, try it out, everybody, you know how most people are going to scan through their podcast app looking for a new thing They're going to see the show description for Hereafter and think I don't want to talk about that stuff. Well, here's where you come in your reviews. Let people know it really isn't all that bad. In here we talk about heavy stuff, but it's in the service of making things better for everyone. So everyone needs to listen. Spread the word in your workplace, in your social world.
On social media and click through to leave a review.
Subscribe to the show, download episodes, and send in your questions. Want more Hereafter Brief education doesn't just belong to end of life issues. Life is full of losses, from everyday disappointments to events that clearly divide life into before and after. Learning how to talk about all that without cliches or platitudes or simplistic think positive posters is an important skill for everyone. Find trainings, workshops, books and resources for every human trying to make their way in the world after something goes horribly wrong at Megandivine dot Co. Hereafter with Megan Divine is written produced by me Megan Divine, Executive producer is Amy Brown and Elizabeth Fozzio, Edited by Houston Tilly.
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