Did anyone teach you that understanding your grief is the key to being (or becoming) a healthy human being? Probably not. 

In this expansive episode, Megan speaks with world-renowned author and physician Gabor Maté about the role of trauma and grief in our personal lives and in society at large. Dr. Gabor Maté on grief, this week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK.



In this episode we cover: 


What is “personal agency” and why does losing personal agency create disease? 
Why calling grief a disorder has social, relational and political ramifications
How do elephants grieve? Is it really so different from humans? 
Women as the emotional shock absorbers for the rest of the world
Dr. Gabor Maté’s conversation with Prince Harry (!) 



We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.



Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.



Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses



About our guest: 

Dr. Gabor Maté is a renowned speaker and author, with expertise in trauma, stress, addiction, and child development. He’s the NYT best-selling author of The Myth of Normal, Scattered Minds, the award-winning In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, and many other books. 



Find him at drgabormate.com



About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief



Additional resources:

Watch the documentary The Wisdom of Trauma  exploring Gabor Maté’s work to understand the connection between illness, addiction, trauma, and society.  



Read Hold on to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld & Gabor Maté

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You're Not OK andHow to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Did anyone teach you that understanding your grief is the key to being (or becoming) a healthy human being? Probably not. 
In this expansive episode, Megan speaks with world-renowned author and physician Gabor Maté about the role of trauma and grief in our personal lives and in society at large. Dr. Gabor Maté on grief, this week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK.
 
In this episode we cover: 
 
<ul>
<li aria-level="1">What is “personal agency” and why does losing personal agency create disease? </li>
<li aria-level="1">Why calling grief a disorder has social, relational and political ramifications</li>
<li aria-level="1">How do elephants grieve? Is it really so different from humans? </li>
<li aria-level="1">Women as the emotional shock absorbers for the rest of the world</li>
<li aria-level="1">Dr. Gabor Maté’s conversation with Prince Harry (!) </li>
</ul>
 
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief <a href="http://refugeingrief.com/wyg">course here</a>.
 
Follow our show on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/refugeingrief/">Instagram</a>, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/refugeingrief/">Facebook</a>, <a href="https://twitter.com/refugeingrief">Twitter</a>, and <a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@refugeingrief">TikTok</a> @refugeingrief and <a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@itsokpod">@itsokpod</a> on TikTok. Visit <a href="https://refugeingrief.com/">refugeingrief.com</a> for resources &amp; courses
 
About our guest: 
Dr. Gabor Maté is a renowned speaker and author, with expertise in trauma, stress, addiction, and child development. He’s the NYT best-selling author of <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9780593083888">The Myth of Normal</a>, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9780593714379">Scattered Minds</a>, the award-winning <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781556438806">In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts</a>, and <a href="https://drgabormate.com/book/">many other books</a>. 
 
Find him at <a href="https://drgabormate.com/">drgabormate.com</a>
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074">It’s Ok that You’re Not OK</a>, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional resources:
Watch the documentary <a href="https://thewisdomoftrauma.com/">The Wisdom of Trauma</a>  exploring Gabor Maté’s work to understand the connection between illness, addiction, trauma, and society.  
 
Read <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9780375760280">Hold on to Your Kids</a> by Gordon Neufeld &amp; Gabor Maté
Want to talk with Megan directly? <a href="https://www.patreon.com/megandevine">Join our patreon community</a> for live monthly Q&amp;A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? <a href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd0EjlSBXpJCil0TqCMp1sC-1SlWfBpC_jcVPOmrH5eJTMSFw/viewform">Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here</a>. 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074"> It’s OK That You're Not OK</a> and<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781683643708"> How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed</a>
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Life is full of difficult things, from tiny everyday disappointments to life-altering events. Everyone’s at least a little bit Not OK, something grief expert and psychotherapist Megan Devine knows from the inside out. In wide ranging, insightful, deep conversations, Megan talks with people about their often invisible losses - and what they’ve learned about being seen and supported in difficult times. 

With guests pulled from the front lines of entertainment, medicine, education, and activism, the conversations in It’s OK that You’re Not OK are funny, complex, emotional, and hopeful - maybe not your typical dinner party topics, but none of us are entirely OK, and it’s time we start talking about that.

New episodes each and every Monday, from the author of the best-selling book, It’s OK That You’re Not OK, and iHeartMedia. Find Megan online at @refugeingrief & follow the show @ItsOKPod

Life is full of difficult things, from tiny everyday disappointments to life-altering events. Everyone’s at least a little bit Not OK, something grief expert and psychotherapist Megan Devine knows from the inside out. In wide ranging, insightful, deep conversations, Megan talks with people about their often invisible losses - and what they’ve learned about being seen and supported in difficult times. 
With guests pulled from the front lines of entertainment, medicine, education, and activism, the conversations in It’s OK that You’re Not OK are funny, complex, emotional, and hopeful - maybe not your typical dinner party topics, but none of us are entirely OK, and it’s time we start talking about that.
New episodes each and every Monday, from the author of the best-selling book, It’s OK That You’re Not OK, and iHeartMedia. Find Megan online at @refugeingrief &amp; follow the show @ItsOKPod

It’s OK That You’re Not OK with Megan Devine

Why Do We Celebrate Trauma (aka: resilience)? with Dr. Gabor Maté

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/6168007d-7d50-4a11-abbe-b0fc00398499/transcript

The world is such a hot mess: every day a new disaster, a new human rights catastrophe. It can just feel… endless. Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch joins us to talk about outrage and trauma and community building - it’s like the greatest hits of modern culture. But mostly, she joins us to talk about art - specifically, the ways that storytelling helps us band together and work towards the world we all want. 

PS: Listen all the way through so you don’t miss Aubrey’s slightly sinister but ultimately functional ideas on hope. 



In this episode we cover: 

- The relationship between rage and creation: when there’s so much wrong with the world all you can do is scream

- Why taking action to change things matters - even if your actions won’t save everyone

- Women and anger: hoo boy, it’s a whole thing. 

- Why healing inside trauma is actually kind of… boring. 

- Connecting through the power of storytelling



We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.



Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.





About our guest:

Aubrey Hirsch is the author of Why We Never Talk About Sugar, a collection of short stories, and This Will Be His Legacy, a flash fiction chapbook. Her stories, essays and comics have appeared widely in print and online in places like American Short Fiction, Vox, TIME,The New York Times, The Rumpus, The Toast, and in the New York Times bestselling anthology, Not That Bad. Her essay on trauma and surviving gun violence is a must read. Find it here.



About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief



Additional Resources:

Aubrey occasionally teaches comics for “non-artists.” Check her TW @aubreyhirsch for announcements. 

Aubrey publishes new comics and essays on Roxane Gay’s substack, The Audacity. 

Aubrey’s written on so many topics relevant to human life. Find a long list of awesome essays on her website, aubreyhirsch.com

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You're Not OK andHow to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us atrefugeingrief.com

The world is such a hot mess: every day a new disaster, a new human rights catastrophe. It can just feel… endless. Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch joins us to talk about outrage and trauma and community building - it’s like the greatest hits of modern culture. But mostly, she joins us to talk about art - specifically, the ways that storytelling helps us band together and work towards the world we all want. 
PS: Listen all the way through so you don’t miss Aubrey’s slightly sinister but ultimately functional ideas on hope. 
 
In this episode we cover: 
- The relationship between rage and creation: when there’s so much wrong with the world all you can do is scream
- Why taking action to change things matters - even if your actions won’t save everyone
- Women and anger: hoo boy, it’s a whole thing. 
- Why healing inside trauma is actually kind of… boring. 
- Connecting through the power of storytelling
 
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief <a href="http://refugeingrief.com/wyg">course here</a>.
 
About our guest:
Aubrey Hirsch is the author of <a href="https://amzn.to/4coZLad">Why We Never Talk About Sugar</a>, a collection of short stories, and <a href="https://squareup.com/market/lettered-streets-press/preorder-split-series-volume-aubrey-hirsch-alexis-pope">This Will Be His Legacy</a>, a flash fiction chapbook. Her stories, essays and comics have appeared widely in print and online in places like American Short Fiction, Vox, TIME, The New York Times, The Rumpus, The Toast, and in the New York Times bestselling anthology, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9780062413512">Not That Bad</a>. Her essay on trauma and surviving gun violence is a must read. <a href="https://audacity.substack.com/p/over-and-over-again">Find it here</a>.
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074">It’s Ok that You’re Not OK</a>, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional Resources:
Aubrey occasionally teaches comics for “non-artists.” Check her TW <a href="https://twitter.com/aubreyhirsch">@aubreyhirsch</a> for announcements. 
Aubrey publishes new comics and essays on Roxane Gay’s substack, <a href="https://substack.com/profile/1849120-roxane-gay">The Audacity</a>. 
Aubrey’s written on so many topics relevant to human life. Find a long list of awesome essays on her website, <a href="https://aubreyhirsch.com/">aubreyhirsch.com</a>
Want to talk with Megan directly? <a href="https://www.patreon.com/megandevine">Join our patreon community</a> for live monthly Q&amp;A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? <a href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd0EjlSBXpJCil0TqCMp1sC-1SlWfBpC_jcVPOmrH5eJTMSFw/viewform">Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here</a>. 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074"> It’s OK That You're Not OK</a> and<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781683643708"> How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed</a>
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Follow our show on<a href="https://www.instagram.com/refugeingrief/"> Instagram</a>,<a href="https://www.facebook.com/refugeingrief/"> Facebook</a>,<a href="https://twitter.com/refugeingrief"> Twitter</a>, and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@refugeingrief"> TikTok</a> @refugeingrief and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@itsokpod"> @itsokpod</a> on TikTok.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at<a href="https://refugeingrief.com/"> refugeingrief.com</a>

Over and Over Again: Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch on the Power of Storytelling

If you look at social media with its reliance on meme-based psychology, you’d think that the Buddhist approach to life is to not let things get to you - that the true spiritual path helps you rise above such limited, unenlightened human feelings like grief, greed, and resentment. 



This week on It’s OK, Zen teacher Koshin Paley Ellison is here to tell you that your suffering deserves your attention. 



In this episode we cover: 



- How an experience of targeted violence shaped Koshin’s childhood, and what it’s taught him about the suffering of others

- Why it’s healthier to spend time in the “life is suffering” part of the 4 Noble Truths, rather than rushing to the other 3 as solutions

- How to work with the pain and the suffering in your own life, so that it doesn't fester and cause more harm

- Why going to the furniture store looking for milk is only going to lead to disappointment

- Koshin’s new book, Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion



We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.



Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.



About our guest:

Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, and Jungian psychotherapist who has devoted his life to the study and application of psychotherapy and Buddhism. Koshin co-founded the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, with his husband Chodo Robert Campbell, to transform the culture of care through contemplative practice by meeting illness, aging, and death with compassion and wisdom.



Koshin’s work has been featured in The New York Times, PBS, and CBS Sunday Morning among other media outlets. His newest book is Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion. Find him on IG @koshinpaleyellison



About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief



Additional Resources:

Chodo and Koshin joined us in season one of It’s Ok that You’re Not OK. Listen to that episode here. 



Learn about the New York Zen Center’s contemplative care program at zencare.org



Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 



Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You're Not OK andHow to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed



Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us atrefugeingrief.com

If you look at social media with its reliance on meme-based psychology, you’d think that the Buddhist approach to life is to not let things get to you - that the true spiritual path helps you rise above such limited, unenlightened human feelings like grief, greed, and resentment. 
 
This week on It’s OK, Zen teacher Koshin Paley Ellison is here to tell you that your suffering deserves your attention. 
 
In this episode we cover: 
 
- How an experience of targeted violence shaped Koshin’s childhood, and what it’s taught him about the suffering of others
- Why it’s healthier to spend time in the “life is suffering” part of the 4 Noble Truths, rather than rushing to the other 3 as solutions
- How to work with the pain and the suffering in your own life, so that it doesn't fester and cause more harm
- Why going to the furniture store looking for milk is only going to lead to disappointment
- Koshin’s new book, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781538708309">Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion</a>
 
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief <a href="http://refugeingrief.com/wyg">course here</a>.
 
About our guest:
Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, and Jungian psychotherapist who has devoted his life to the study and application of psychotherapy and Buddhism. Koshin co-founded the <a href="https://zencare.org/">New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care</a>, with his husband Chodo Robert Campbell, to transform the culture of care through contemplative practice by meeting illness, aging, and death with compassion and wisdom. 
Koshin’s work has been featured in The New York Times, PBS, and CBS Sunday Morning among other media outlets. His newest book is <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781538708309">Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion</a>. Find him on IG<a href="https://www.instagram.com/koshinpaleyellison/"> @koshinpaleyellison</a>
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074">It’s Ok that You’re Not OK</a>, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional Resources:
Chodo and Koshin joined us in season one of It’s Ok that You’re Not OK. <a href="https://open.spotify.com/episode/2dxk38ZeK0TbTXXpjVyzzV?si=UGWiBgzpRjawQbtbGRid7Q">Listen to that episode here</a>. 
 
Learn about the New York Zen Center’s contemplative care program at <a href="https://zencare.org/">zencare.org</a>
 
Want to talk with Megan directly? <a href="https://www.patreon.com/megandevine">Join our patreon community</a> for live monthly Q&amp;A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? <a href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd0EjlSBXpJCil0TqCMp1sC-1SlWfBpC_jcVPOmrH5eJTMSFw/viewform">Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here</a>. 
 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074"> It’s OK That You're Not OK</a> and<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781683643708"> How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed</a>
 
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Follow our show on<a href="https://www.instagram.com/refugeingrief/"> Instagram</a>,<a href="https://www.facebook.com/refugeingrief/"> Facebook</a>,<a href="https://twitter.com/refugeingrief"> Twitter</a>, and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@refugeingrief"> TikTok</a> @refugeingrief and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@itsokpod"> @itsokpod</a> on TikTok.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at<a href="https://refugeingrief.com/"> refugeingrief.com</a>

Untangled: Suffering & The 8-Fold Path with Koshin Paley Ellison

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/661a49e8-1a10-4324-911d-b17f0043f7e5/transcript

On the outside, veteran Jason Kander had everything going for him: successful political career, lovely family, the respect of his peers. But on the inside, he was struggling: nightmares, depression and suicidal thoughts were constant companions. 

Jason joins us to talk about his new book,Invisible Storm, and what it really takes to go from post traumatic stress to post traumatic growth. (Don’t let that ‘post traumatic growth’ turn you away from this episode! There are no shortcuts to happiness here.) 



In this episode we cover: 



- Why most returning vets believe that getting help is great - for other people. 

- The concept of “stolen valor” and how it relates to treatment options for PTSD

- How Jason used shame as a way to give himself the illusion of control 

- What “redemptive heroism” is, and why there’s a much better way to manage PTSD

- Every trauma is valid trauma: avoiding the temptation of comparing emotional injury



We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.



Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.





About our guest:

Jason Kander joined the Army National Guard in 2005 after getting a law degree at Georgetown University. He deployed in 2006 to Afghanistan, where his mission was to assess the corruption levels of former Afghan warlords and government leaders. Ten years after serving in Afghanistan, Jason Kander was a rising star in the Democratic Party, exploring a presidential run. But outside of the political spotlight, he was racked by nightmares, depression and suicidal thoughts. His book, Invisible Storm, shares the story of his experience with PTSD, and his hopes for anyone who’s survived trauma. 

Jason is the president of the Veterans Community Project, a national nonprofit organization, and the host of Majority 54, one of the nation's most popular political podcasts. Follow him on social media @jasonkander



About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief



Additional Resources:

The book Jason mentioned is Tribe by Sebastian Junger



Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You're Not OK andHow to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us atrefugeingrief.com

On the outside, veteran Jason Kander had everything going for him: successful political career, lovely family, the respect of his peers. But on the inside, he was struggling: nightmares, depression and suicidal thoughts were constant companions. Jason joins us to talk about his new book, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9780063268616">Invisible Storm</a>, and what it really takes to go from post traumatic stress to post traumatic growth. (Don’t let that ‘post traumatic growth’ turn you away from this episode! There are no shortcuts to happiness here.) 
 
In this episode we cover: 
 
- Why most returning vets believe that getting help is great - for other people. 
- The concept of “stolen valor” and how it relates to treatment options for PTSD
- How Jason used shame as a way to give himself the illusion of control 
- What “redemptive heroism” is, and why there’s a much better way to manage PTSD
- Every trauma is valid trauma: avoiding the temptation of comparing emotional injury
 
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
 
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief <a href="http://refugeingrief.com/wyg">course here</a>.
 
About our guest:
Jason Kander joined the Army National Guard in 2005 after getting a law degree at Georgetown University. He deployed in 2006 to Afghanistan, where his mission was to assess the corruption levels of former Afghan warlords and government leaders. Ten years after serving in Afghanistan, Jason Kander was a rising star in the Democratic Party, exploring a presidential run. But outside of the political spotlight, he was racked by nightmares, depression and suicidal thoughts. His book, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9780063268616">Invisible Storm</a>, shares the story of his experience with PTSD, and his hopes for anyone who’s survived trauma. 
Jason is the president of the <a href="https://www.veteranscommunityproject.org/">Veterans Community Project</a>, a national nonprofit organization, and the host of <a href="https://www.wondermedianetwork.com/originals/majority-54">Majority 54</a>, one of the nation's most popular political podcasts. Follow him on social media @jasonkander
 
About Megan: 
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074">It’s Ok that You’re Not OK</a>, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
 
Additional Resources:
The book Jason mentioned is <a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781455566389">Tribe</a> by Sebastian Junger
 
Want to talk with Megan directly? <a href="https://www.patreon.com/megandevine">Join our patreon community</a> for live monthly Q&amp;A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? <a href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd0EjlSBXpJCil0TqCMp1sC-1SlWfBpC_jcVPOmrH5eJTMSFw/viewform">Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here</a>. 
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781622039074"> It’s OK That You're Not OK</a> and<a href="https://bookshop.org/a/96103/9781683643708"> How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed</a>
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Follow our show on<a href="https://www.instagram.com/refugeingrief/"> Instagram</a>,<a href="https://www.facebook.com/refugeingrief/"> Facebook</a>,<a href="https://twitter.com/refugeingrief"> Twitter</a>, and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@refugeingrief"> TikTok</a> @refugeingrief and<a href="https://www.tiktok.com/@itsokpod"> @itsokpod</a> on TikTok.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at<a href="https://refugeingrief.com/"> refugeingrief.com</a>

Why Do We Celebrate Trauma (aka: resilience)? with Dr. Gabor Maté

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