This is here After, and I'm your host, Megan Divine. Each week we tackle your big questions about life and love and loss, basically all the messy parts of being human, from little daily hurdles to life altering events. If you've got questions, I probably have answers for you. And when I don't have answers, I find you someone who does. This week the final episode of season one. We made it, what we've learned, where we're going, and of course, most importantly, why you should care about any of that coming up next. Stay tuned, everybody. Before we get started, one quick note, Well, I hope you find a lot of useful information in our time here together. This show is not a substitute for skilled support with a licensed mental health provider or for professional supervision related to your work. Hey friends, this is episode twenty Any times, not including the two little bonus episodes. Twenty times I have settled into this mic and rambled on about sticky situations and emotional gray areas, almost always related to boundaries of some kind, honestly, because as I have said before, every question is a question about boundaries in some way. I've answered fifty or so of your questions We've had ten amazing guests tackling everything from New Year's resolutions to uneven domestic workloads to healthcare worker burnout. Twenty shows in, we have learned a lot about what it takes to create this show, yes, but also what it takes to get people to listen to a show like this. Grief is always going to be a tricky topic. It's one of those elephant in the room things, a topic that literally every single person experiences, but no one really talks about. One big problem that we found, not just for this show, but like for a lot of what I do on a daily basis is that people self select out when we start talking about grief, Like that's something that applies to other people, not to me. I'm not grieving, I'm distressed, or I'm not grieving. Nobody died. I don't even know anyone who's grieving, so I certainly don't need to listen to a podcast about it. I think that sort of self selection out happens a lot now. My dad said something to me the other day. He said, my game, I have an idea for your next book. What if you told people that grief is pretty much everywhere? Like I still grieve moving out of Buffalo forty years ago. Even though it was a fantastic move and I'm so glad we did it, I'm still sad about choices I made. I missed some of the old houses I sold, I missed jobs I left, even when the net gain for all of those choices was good. He kept on talking because my dad is the sweetest, and he was on a roll, and he said, I don't know that there's a whole book in there about that, but I just think that people don't realize that so much of normal life is grief and then it's okay to have feelings about it. I think a lot of people would like to talk about that, the everyday grief that we don't call grief now. My dad one is awesome and the sweetest too. He spent most of his career in radio. He definitely hasn't lost his marketer edge either. He had no idea we were thinking about how to grow and expand this show, but he's right on target there. How do we get people to talk about things, or in this case, obviously, listen to things when they think they don't belong here in this work or on the show. One of the reasons we're wrapping up Season one of Hereafter is to spend some time wondering about that. While we'round break, the whole team and I are exploring ways to make the show attract more listeners. Get everybody on the grief train, basically everybody on a grief chain or the not grief train, the being human is hard sometimes train, the everyday grief that we don't call grief train. This is why we need a break, Yeah, because if I have to describe it like that at the start of every show, we're going to get really, really long episodes that no one will listen to. Anyway, I do know that in season two, when we come back from break, we're going to broaden our scope. We started season one focused on the helpers, the doctors, nurses, therapists and other folks we lean on one life go sideways. There is so much grief in the healthcare world right now, so much overwhelm and disillusionment and burnout. In season two, we're casting a wider net, one that invites everybody to the Hereafter party, the party of awkward and difficult things. I mean, probably surprising nobody, but that that's a great party for me. I love that. That's my happy place. Conversations with interesting people about awkward and difficult things should probably be the show tagline starting in season two, right, conversations with interesting people about awkward and difficult things who wouldn't see themselves reflected in that kind of power statement. For now, though, this is the last episode of season one, and a really fitting last episode for season one. Is some off the cuff, riffing on where we've been over these last six months with my co producer Tanya Ujas. Now normally she is the silent partner running the board, but today we have things to discuss. So Tanya, Hey, Megan, welcome to the on air side of the show. Thank you. It's so fun to be here with you, and I just have to say working with you on hereafter has been just a professional pleasure and joy, and especially bringing this very important topic of as you just described it, grief being everywhere, even though we might not call it grief. So very proud of season one and super excited about season two. Yeah. Season one yea season two yeah right? Like the team that we have for this show is is stellar friends. What ye unbelievable true stories? Okay, So let's talk about some of our favorite shows or our favorite moments in shows. I feel like if this was video right now, everybody, I feel like we should have like placards that we write our favorite show on and then then the other person has to guess and see if we're okay. That's not going to work because you wouldn't be able to see it anyway. So not today, But Tanya, what is your top favorite episode from season one? Okay, Megan, I literally have an episode that is my favorite. We lovingly refer to it as the zen Men episode, which is officially titled Do I Stay or Do I Go? Caregivers under Stress with co founders of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care. And it's a mouthful, isn't that the New York Zons Center for Contemplative Care is It is a tricky one. That was our episode. As Tony said, do I Stay or Do I Go? It's about caregivers under stress with the amazing co founders of the New York ns Center for Contemplative Care, sense A Total and sense A Cotion. But why is that one your favorite episode? Okay? So I was so moved by sense A Toto and sense A cotion that I literally hung onto every word that they were saying. However, it was Cation who offered during the questions to carry with you segment of the show when he said, and I'm going to quote him because I wanted to get this right. So one of the things that I invite you to do this week is to reflect on what else is true? And so when you find yourself in some thought about a sadness or an anger or grief, just invite the question what else is true? And it's such a simple concept, yet it's been truly life changing for me. I've added it to my daily practice. And as you know, Megan, I was so blessed to find your book It's okay that you're not okay after stuffering my own traumatic loss and the past three years of have been rough, and sometimes I find myself going down a rabbit hole of sadness and finding it difficult to stop that process and come back out of it. And just that simple question of asking yourself what else is true? Forces me to look around me and to happen to love nature. So looking at a tree, looking at a sunrise, how soft my son's hand is, and in fact, speaking of my son, it's so funny. But when I go and pick up my son from school or take him to school and he's perhaps a little anxious, we've made it into almost like an a spy game with him, like, okay, aman, you've had a rough day, but what else is true? And at the end of it we end up cracking up because of course, you know, we get some thirteen year old boy humor in there, and and but it does what it's supposed to do, which just takes us out of our head. This is a This is a theme threading through both of Choto and Quohs work is like, we don't do these things to erase the hardship or to like put a glossy spin on things that are really crappy. It really is about what you just said, where we want to help ourselves pull out of a tailspin, if at all possible. And that question that he asked, what else is true? It's not meant to erase whatever difficult thought or moment or experience is happening. It's meant to help you widen out the lens, give you a little bit more breathing room. And I love that you and him and make it like an incredibly goofy game. So like, this is a great thing to do when you're feeling anxious, or you're feeling stressed, or you like can't get yourself out of the loop of sadness or the rumination what else is true? What else is my companion? Here in this wear some breathing room, and so Choto, if you happen to be listening to this, there was a battle when we were recording that episode. Do you remember I asked both of them to come to the Questions to Carry with You segment that we close every single episode with and give us their individual questions to Carry with You and coations was this beautiful what else is true? Thing? But Chotos was like man after my own heart. Man like his was full of swearing and just bombs and a little time share on the microphone. Um and he said, he said, I bet you're going to cut mine and you're not going to use it, And I don't actually remember that. I kept it and we kept it. Oh, we used it as a promo yea friends, Okay, so y'all, that's actually a really good enticement promotion for you listening to the lovingly called zen Men episode when we re release it during our break look for or Do I Stay or Do I Go? Caregivers under Stress with the co founders of the New York's Center for Contemplative Care for the one very zen question from Cotion anthy theory, f bomb Ladies, then from Choto. It was such a good episode. It was a really really good one. And I also like, I really love to hear how the stuff that we record here in session, in our in our little booth, hair like what that does for people out in the world and how they're listening to it. So I love that. I love that that taking little pieces from the show and moving it out into the world, that that really happened for you. Okay, do you want to ask me what my favorite show is? Okay, Okay, I have some insider knowledge, so I know that my actual top favorite show is also one of your favorite shows. So I'm going to skip that one for now and go to my conversation with Alexandra Solomon. Right. I love Alexander Solomon. So we are going to re release one of the episodes. I think Alexander and I spoke for so long. We split it into two episodes, and I'm pretty sure we're releasing one of those during the break. I would have to check, but I'm pretty sure we are. And what I loved about it was honestly okay. So so maybe this is a little bit silly, but it was a really fun episode for me. I feel like Dr Solomon and I had a really good vibe together, and we we managed to both support and challenge each other in one episode in ways that we're really fun and we learned from each other like that just hit all the sweet spots for me as a content producer and as a as a human being, always searching for awesome professional colleagues in Pierre, So that was my favorite from that side, from the I get to talk to interesting people about difficult things side and again, right like conversations with interesting people about difficult and awkward things. Like that's the direction we're heading, which means more fun stuff for me and more awkward stuff for you. That's just the way it is. That's that's the way it is when you're behind the microphone. So we've been talking about our favorite episodes of season one. Everybody, We'll be right back after this fresh break. Welcome back to my conversation with my co producer Tanya about our favorite moments for a season one. Let's get right back into that conversation. It's a bunch of teasers for the shows you're gonna hear coming up soon. We just did Tanny's favorite episode, we did my favorite episode, and I think now we get to talk about our joint favorite episode. Do you want to tell everybody what that one is? Yes? It was really hard, not hard to pick a favorite episode, because of course I feel like they're all wonderful. But the one that I can go back and listen to over and over again is the episode you did for avoundin Today, which is called the Love Well. We call it the Love Episode, but it is actually titled The Love Filled World, which you will be able to hear during the break And it was just so beautiful and I really feel and felt when I heard it the first time and being in the room recording it with you getting goose bumps, that the world needs to hear and absorb this message, and you quoted I had to go back and look, here's the thing. Compassion is already an abundant resource. We just don't treat it that way. There's plenty of love and compassion to go around if we stop hoarding it. There is more than enough love and acceptance and compassion for everyone if we treat it like the abundant resource it already is. This is Tanya talking after two years of a pandemic and the loss of life as we know it, political uncertainty, social injustices. We are all fighting to be seen and heard and are afraid there won't be anything left over for us if we don't out grief each other someone who is trying to share their own experience. Again, the concept is so easy and it's so beautiful, but that love is an infinite resource and compassion is an infinite resource. I've been taught that the more we ask a friend how are you doing? I mean, like, how are you really doing? And then listen with intention, not only does it take us out of our own worries, but gives us connection to others in an honest and vulnerable way. It is such a truly beautiful episode with such an important message, with life skills that we, just if we're not already using them, need to use them every day. Yeah, I think daily life is a great, necessary experimental ground for that abundance of compassion that you were just describing right. I love that you said if we don't out grief each other, and that really is what we do in that episode definitely dives into that, but that the whole idea of we can't pay attention to your loss, your loss isn't bad enough, my loss is worse than yours, This sort of escalating conflict of out griefing each other. We only do that when we have a scarce resource. We only compete like that when something is scarce. And so the whole reason for that Favorite Group episode that we call the Love Filled World, I think it's actually going to be called that now we took the Valentine's Day marker off of it when we're going to rerelease it, but really really diving into that grief competition and what kind of world we build when we stop hoarding love and compassion and instead extended to everyone. Actually, this morning, on the way in, I made the mistake of looking at Instagram when I was out walking the dog, which I should really never do. I mean, my personal like my Instagram followers are like ninety nine percent amazing, and on the very rare occasions that one of them is not amazing, Like I really need to see that on my morning dog walk. But I saw it this morning and somebody was whining about, like, how dare you offer support for gun laws or something in this country? And I'm like, well, because people were deserved to not be killed when they're on their way to work or they're at school or that our movie theater. Like gun laws are awesome because they helped to prevent death, which would help to prevent grief, which is totally on brand for me, and I turned it off obviously, but that you know, it turned into this whole like weird out griefing. No one cares about those issues, pay attention to my grief kind of weirdness. I mean, this is my own little extra rant on this here. But like, you don't have to agree with the truth somebody claims about their own lives, but it doesn't hurt you to respect it. It doesn't cost you anything to say. Huh, I don't get that, But I wish you all the love and support in the world, like why be a wanker? The Love Filled World? Subtitle why be it wink? Okay, so you can see probably why that episode is one of my favorites. It's it's actually I'm restraining myself right now from from continuing my ted talk part two on the love fild World and just you know, just listen to that one when it comes out. It really really is one of my favorite episodes. It's such an important message, especially now when there is just so much pain in the world, Not that there wasn't always pain in the world, but we have access to so much more pain than we used to, so much more awareness of pain than we used to have. So be sure to listen to The Love Filled World when it comes out. We did change the title so it no longer will say the Valentine's Day episode. You're going to hear me mention the Valentine's Day thing when you listen to the rerelease of the episode while we're on break. But you know, as I said, it's too good to sit on the shelf for all except for one week out of the year. That's how I feel about it. Agreed. Anyway, one last favorite episode that we are going to rerelease during break is my conversation with psychotherapist and author Alison Denene called what Happens to Childhood Grief when You Grow Up. Now, I'm gonna let Tanya riff On that one, and why that's one of the top ones that we decided to rerelease, Like, I think that's one of our highest rated shows too, right, So why is that? Why do you think that one is one of our highest rated shows. What happens to childhood grief when you grow up? Well, literally, my mind was blown. Like picture the emoji get just gets blown your mind blow, mind blown emoi, mind blown emoji. There's it. When Alison was talking, she mentioned the fact that she had experienced at four years old, losing her mom in a very tragic way and the folks all around her, so her grandparents and other family members were teaching her how to handle grief and the way they handled grief by not talking about it, not talking about the person she lost, not talking about her pain, and that then as she grew into an adult and into adulthood, when she went through her own loss of her partner, her husband, I believe that childhood experience of witnessing how adults grieve then led her to a place of perhaps learning how she didn't want to grieve or how she needed to grieve, and then be an example of that grief. So I thought about my own life that you know, I was raised by a single mom who was amazing, but our family was kind of taught don't cry, don't get angry, don't feel those emotions. Will not necessarily don't cry, but just don't feel those emotions of anger or whatever it happened to be. And so when grief hit for me of actually losing her, I just went into robot mode. I went into I have to fix this, I have to do this, and I need to take care of this person, and I need to take care of that person. And I found myself almost a year in not ever having really explored my own grief because I was I wasn't taught how to grieve, and so I have been very intentional with how I raised my son Amon, who's experiencing the same loss and same grief. That we're doing this differently. We talked about it, We swirled the grief in our heads, and we pop it out of our brains, and we set it aside at night. We do many different things, and so I'm hoping that I'm teaching a new generation that is okay to grieve and that it's okay to talk about your pain anytime and not just in like a therapist office that it's just something you can talk about freely and not be ashamed of. And so that was really what blew my mind was how witnessing grief as a child showed us, or or mimicked for us, how we should grieve as an adult. Yeah, I love that. I love that for so many reasons. One, I really really love themotional education. You give your family, like you learn things and you pass it on, and you try to allow the people in your life to find their own way through grief, knowing that any expression is okay. And we apply skills and tools and boundaries and coping skills around the emotions, but the emotions themselves are welcome. Yeah, And it's it's so interesting about that, Like so many people have losses from childhood, maybe a parent died, maybe a friend died, maybe your grandparent died. And and we you know, so many of us came up through generations that learned to stuff your emotions, stiff upper lip, power, through don't air your dirty laundry, all of these different things, and that sort of the family and cultural lineage of grief avoidance. It can do a lot of damage. Like we um, you know, we haven't talked about this on the show yet, hopefully we'll talk about it in season two. But this intergenerational trauma, intergenerational loss, and how those losses get passed down. There's some thing that I really like mundane description of intergenerational learning and trauma that I read years ago, and like, this person always cut off the ends of their roast beef. I think, like the beef roast before they put them in the oven. They always cut the ends off before they put them in. And they had a visitor over and they were like, why do you do that? And they were like, oh, that's what my mom taught me. You have to do it that way. But it made her curious about why why she did that, and she like called her mom and she's like, oh, honey, I did that because I didn't have a big enough pan. Yeah, that's awesome, right. So I mean that is a very silly example of how we absorb the things that were taught and the things that we observe. And that is never more true than when we are looking at how do the grown ups feel? What is safe to feel? How should I do this? Like one of my old teachers used to say that kids watch the grownups for a living. And I think I say that in my conversation with Alison too, that kids really do watch the grown ups for cues about how they're supposed to do things. And I think you're right. I think one of the reasons that the Conversation with Alison is such a good one and such a high rated show for us is one it acknowledges that lots of very normal people carry around losses from childhood and honestly even losses that they inherited from their family systems that are still being passed down. Not a bad thing, just a thing that happens. So I think there's one there's the recognition of that that a lot of people are carrying that, and too that you get to choose to do things differently, and Alison just tells such a beautiful story about what that means for her and how she wanted to do things differently with her own kids after her husband died a very sudden, accidental death, And that's sort of reparenting yourself in those moments. So what's the name? Do you know the name of that episode? It's It's what happens to childhood grief when you grow up, Alison Denin and you can also find Allison on Instagram if you want to learn more about that. But you know, I'm also obviously going to point you to her in the actual show itself, so you know, look for that. But having these conversations like the three shows that we just talked about, the I can't I can't not call it the zen Men, the zen Men Show. I hope they don't mind that. Guys, if you're listening, I hope you don't mind. But the zen Men show the love filled world and what happens to childhood grief when you grow up. I think the thing that these all point too is how pervasive and normal grief is. It is literally everywhere in everyday life. We just don't tend to call it that, right Who recognizes that the way that their grandparents taught them about grief is actually a grief issue? Like who really looks at something and says, oh, this is something that I learned in childhood and it's really affecting me now. Or you know, I've been scrolling through Twitter and what's happening in Ukraine is really really distressing, Like we don't name those things as grief. So I think the real trick for season two everybody is how to get those kinds of conversations rolling if I could just jump into it, I personally can't wait for season two. As you mentioned, you know, the word grief can be a tricky one and be a tricky topic. But you have always pointed out to us in this first season that grief is lost, grief is love, grief is around us every day, but the word can kind of make a shy away from talking about it when it's really a topic that everyone would benefit from being more at ease and discussing. And I wanted to say this because it happens to be a personal passion of mine. To prove my point, this podcast Hereafter with Megan Divine has been downloaded in over nine countries. So clearly this show this topic transcends borders, cultures, and languages as it is a language of its own that you can see when looking at another person and see their stories staring right back at you. Yeah, that reflection in other people's stories is so powerful and I I love this. Tanya is always feeding me the stats and that you know that this show has shown up in ninety eight different countries around the world. I think you know, just as you just said to you like that. That shows that this really is a universal language. Grief isn't just something that happens when somebody dies or gets a life changing diagnosis or an illness or an injury. Like as my dad said, grief lives in the every day. We just don't call it grief. And I think that this is a an issue that is important for everybody and whether they whether they know it yet or not. This is really a show about all of the ways that it's hard to be here sometimes and it's hard to be human, and we really do need to not only need to talk about this stuff, but we deserve to talk about this stuff. Yeah, I want everybody on the awkward and difficult conversation strain, not just because I like those conversations. The goal for season two is to get more of these conversations rolling. I'm going to be using the break to figure out how to welcome people in so they see themselves and they're very human lives reflected in this very show. How to make people stop self selecting out because they don't think it's for them when it really really is. I want to figure out and I will figure out how to make you feel welcomed and reflected in this show full disclosure, surprising no one. I definitely have an agenda. I can't stop bad things from happening. I try, but I can't. Where I do have some power and some control is in helping making the world a softer, kinder, better skilled place in which to fall apart. Whether you need that space for a ordinary melancholic Tuesday morning or you need it for a long season of cascading loss. I want this show to be the place where you bring all of it, my friends, from the griefy gray area of everyday life, as my dad said, the normal stuff that we don't call grief, right up through the things that completely rearrange the world. I like conversations about awkward and difficult things. So far, eighty thousand or so of you in ninety eight countries around the world also really dig conversations about awkward and difficult things. I like being able to speak into that place with you, especially when I can offer you some advice or redirection or a handy script to help you navigate whatever's gone wrong. And I bet a whole lot of new people would find all of that stuff beautiful and useful too, if they just knew we were here. Getting grief by any name, by whatever you want to call it, Getting that out into the cultural consciousness is the goal here in the vast broad picture of things, giving people a place to feel seen and welcomed in whatever ways life has gone sideways for them, and of course get their questions answered while they're in that place that's gone sideways. That is also Michael, We're getting their friends. We did so much good work in season one, but I want nothing short of everything. While we're on break between seasons, we will be reorganizing and rethinking some things so we can return with a new plan and new guests, and probably some new ridiculous rants too, because those things will never change. While we'round break, you will still get new episodes each week, where rereleasing some of our most popular shows. You heard about three of them in my conversation with Dannia today. I don't remember what the other couple of them are, but they're going to be awesome. You can listen to some of them for the very first time. You can listen to some that you missed. You can listen to some that you just took a whole bunch of notes durring and you want to go back and listen to them again, because I'm quite sure you missed something. This interim season of rerelease shows is like top hits and deep cuts coming at you over the season break. It's going to be great right now though. Coming up next your weekly questions to carry with you, along with instructions for how you can send in your question for us to use on the show. We are still collecting your questions during the season break, so don't miss that part. Friends, We'll be right back each week. I leave you with some questions to carry with you until we meet again. It's part of that whole. This awkward stuff gets easier with practice thing, and I definitely want you to practice, even though the show is between seasons. This week, what's in your small G grief suitcase? Yes, grief case would have been a good word there, but I didn't use it. I mean I kind of did because I just said it. But you're small G lower case G grief suitcase? Where are the small momentary sadness is inherent in each day? And can you notice them? Okay, the point of this question to carry with you is not to overload yourself with all of the sad things in the world like, oh, look that made me feel sad. Oh look, this is a terrible thing. Don't know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about as a daily practice, notice your feelings on a regular basis. Name stuff, recognize stuff, don't let your feelings pile up. Going back to what my dad said, right, like, there is so much grief in everyday life that we don't name grief. And okay, also, very very very sweet. My dad is like my biggest fan in the world. So you know, one of the things he said was, Maggie, it's your work that taught me that all of this sadness is grief. He's like, maybe it's regret, maybe it's melancholy, maybe it's nostalgia, but all of those things are part of grief. And now I know that's okay. Like, hello, friends, that's awesome, And that's kind of what I want for you, right Start noticing the day to day things that you experience, that you feel, and just start being curious about them. Name what's true in the moment, and let yourself know that whatever you feel, it is perfectly normal. Now a reminder everybody, we are rereleasing some of our favorite shows each week while we're on break, so be sure to tune in. Listen to these shows for the first time, Listen again to see what you might have missed. Listen again again to hear what Tanya and I were talking about when we were not entirely purposely vague. There's always going to be something now, Questions. It is time for your weekly reminder that I want your questions on this show. This show is literally nothing without your questions. Because it is a Q and A show. It is going to stay a Q and a show. You can ask me anything you'd like. Bring me your questions about life, friends, not just the big g grief, but also the life is really hard in general right now. Questions you're what do I do when the world is just off enough that it is messing with pretty much everything? Those kinds of questions. This is an advice show for when life goes sideways, which covers a lot of human difficulties. So let's talk them out. Call us at three to three six three three seven six eight and leave a voicemail. If you missed it, you can find the number in the show notes, or visit Megan Divine dot c O if you'd rather send an email. You can do that to write on the website. Megan Divine dot c O. We're collecting all of your questions through the break too. We want to hear from you. I want to hear from you. This show, this world needs your questions together or we can make things better even when we can't make them right. You know how most people are going to scan through their podcast app looking for a new thing, and they're going to see the show description for Hereafter and think, I don't want to talk about that stuff, right. We were just talking about that through this entire last episode of season one. Thing like don't self select out. It's awesome in here anyway. That's where you come in your reviews of the show. Let people know it really isn't all that bad. In here. We talk about heavy stuff, but it's in the service of making things better for everyone. So everyone needs to listen. Spread the word in your workplace, in your social world on social media, and click through to leave a review. I read all those reviews, everybody. They make my day. Subscribe to the show, download episodes, and send in your questions. I want more Hereafter. Grief education doesn't just belong to end of life issues. We just spent a whole show talking about that life is full of losses, from everyday disappointments to events that clearly divide life into before and after. Learning how to talk about all that without cliches or platitudes or simplistic memes. That's an important skill for everybody. Find trainings, workshops, books and resources for every human trying to make their way in the world after something goes horribly wrong at Megan Divine dot c. O Hereafter with Megan Divine is written and produced by me Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown, co produced by Tanya Uhas and Elizabeth Fosio, Edited by Houston Tilly Studio, support by Chris Urine and music provided by Wave Crush. Grief is always going to be a trippy, top trippy topic. Yes, it's the psychedelic elephant to the room. Okay, composure, I can do that, so Wold

This is here After, and I'm your host, Megan Divine. Each week we tackle your big questions about life and love and loss, basically all the messy parts of being human, from little daily hurdles to life altering events. If you've got questions, I probably have answers for you. And when I don't have answers, I find you someone who does. This week the final episode of season one. We made it, what we've learned, where we're going, and of course, most importantly, why you should care about any of that coming up next. Stay tuned, everybody. Before we get started, one quick note, Well, I hope you find a lot of useful information in our time here together. This show is not a substitute for skilled support with a licensed mental health provider or for professional supervision related to your work. Hey friends, this is episode twenty Any times, not including the two little bonus episodes. Twenty times I have settled into this mic and rambled on about sticky situations and emotional gray areas, almost always related to boundaries of some kind, honestly, because as I have said before, every question is a question about boundaries in some way. I've answered fifty or so of your questions We've had ten amazing guests tackling everything from New Year's resolutions to uneven domestic workloads to healthcare worker burnout. Twenty shows in, we have learned a lot about what it takes to create this show, yes, but also what it takes to get people to listen to a show like this. Grief is always going to be a tricky topic. It's one of those elephant in the room things, a topic that literally every single person experiences, but no one really talks about. One big problem that we found, not just for this show, but like for a lot of what I do on a daily basis is that people self select out when we start talking about grief, Like that's something that applies to other people, not to me. I'm not grieving, I'm distressed, or I'm not grieving. Nobody died. I don't even know anyone who's grieving, so I certainly don't need to listen to a podcast about it. I think that sort of self selection out happens a lot now. My dad said something to me the other day. He said, my game, I have an idea for your next book. What if you told people that grief is pretty much everywhere? Like I still grieve moving out of Buffalo forty years ago. Even though it was a fantastic move and I'm so glad we did it, I'm still sad about choices I made. I missed some of the old houses I sold, I missed jobs I left, even when the net gain for all of those choices was good. He kept on talking because my dad is the sweetest, and he was on a roll, and he said, I don't know that there's a whole book in there about that, but I just think that people don't realize that so much of normal life is grief and then it's okay to have feelings about it. I think a lot of people would like to talk about that, the everyday grief that we don't call grief now. My dad one is awesome and the sweetest too. He spent most of his career in radio. He definitely hasn't lost his marketer edge either. He had no idea we were thinking about how to grow and expand this show, but he's right on target there. How do we get people to talk about things, or in this case, obviously, listen to things when they think they don't belong here in this work or on the show. One of the reasons we're wrapping up Season one of Hereafter is to spend some time wondering about that. While we'round break, the whole team and I are exploring ways to make the show attract more listeners. Get everybody on the grief train, basically everybody on a grief chain or the not grief train, the being human is hard sometimes train, the everyday grief that we don't call grief train. This is why we need a break, Yeah, because if I have to describe it like that at the start of every show, we're going to get really, really long episodes that no one will listen to. Anyway, I do know that in season two, when we come back from break, we're going to broaden our scope. We started season one focused on the helpers, the doctors, nurses, therapists and other folks we lean on one life go sideways. There is so much grief in the healthcare world right now, so much overwhelm and disillusionment and burnout. In season two, we're casting a wider net, one that invites everybody to the Hereafter party, the party of awkward and difficult things. I mean, probably surprising nobody, but that that's a great party for me. I love that. That's my happy place. Conversations with interesting people about awkward and difficult things should probably be the show tagline starting in season two, right, conversations with interesting people about awkward and difficult things who wouldn't see themselves reflected in that kind of power statement. For now, though, this is the last episode of season one, and a really fitting last episode for season one. Is some off the cuff, riffing on where we've been over these last six months with my co producer Tanya Ujas. Now normally she is the silent partner running the board, but today we have things to discuss. So Tanya, Hey, Megan, welcome to the on air side of the show. Thank you. It's so fun to be here with you, and I just have to say working with you on hereafter has been just a professional pleasure and joy, and especially bringing this very important topic of as you just described it, grief being everywhere, even though we might not call it grief. So very proud of season one and super excited about season two. Yeah. Season one yea season two yeah right? Like the team that we have for this show is is stellar friends. What ye unbelievable true stories? Okay, So let's talk about some of our favorite shows or our favorite moments in shows. I feel like if this was video right now, everybody, I feel like we should have like placards that we write our favorite show on and then then the other person has to guess and see if we're okay. That's not going to work because you wouldn't be able to see it anyway. So not today, But Tanya, what is your top favorite episode from season one? Okay, Megan, I literally have an episode that is my favorite. We lovingly refer to it as the zen Men episode, which is officially titled Do I Stay or Do I Go? Caregivers under Stress with co founders of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care. And it's a mouthful, isn't that the New York Zons Center for Contemplative Care is It is a tricky one. That was our episode. As Tony said, do I Stay or Do I Go? It's about caregivers under stress with the amazing co founders of the New York ns Center for Contemplative Care, sense A Total and sense A Cotion. But why is that one your favorite episode? Okay? So I was so moved by sense A Toto and sense A cotion that I literally hung onto every word that they were saying. However, it was Cation who offered during the questions to carry with you segment of the show when he said, and I'm going to quote him because I wanted to get this right. So one of the things that I invite you to do this week is to reflect on what else is true? And so when you find yourself in some thought about a sadness or an anger or grief, just invite the question what else is true? And it's such a simple concept, yet it's been truly life changing for me. I've added it to my daily practice. And as you know, Megan, I was so blessed to find your book It's okay that you're not okay after stuffering my own traumatic loss and the past three years of have been rough, and sometimes I find myself going down a rabbit hole of sadness and finding it difficult to stop that process and come back out of it. And just that simple question of asking yourself what else is true? Forces me to look around me and to happen to love nature. So looking at a tree, looking at a sunrise, how soft my son's hand is, and in fact, speaking of my son, it's so funny. But when I go and pick up my son from school or take him to school and he's perhaps a little anxious, we've made it into almost like an a spy game with him, like, okay, aman, you've had a rough day, but what else is true? And at the end of it we end up cracking up because of course, you know, we get some thirteen year old boy humor in there, and and but it does what it's supposed to do, which just takes us out of our head. This is a This is a theme threading through both of Choto and Quohs work is like, we don't do these things to erase the hardship or to like put a glossy spin on things that are really crappy. It really is about what you just said, where we want to help ourselves pull out of a tailspin, if at all possible. And that question that he asked, what else is true? It's not meant to erase whatever difficult thought or moment or experience is happening. It's meant to help you widen out the lens, give you a little bit more breathing room. And I love that you and him and make it like an incredibly goofy game. So like, this is a great thing to do when you're feeling anxious, or you're feeling stressed, or you like can't get yourself out of the loop of sadness or the rumination what else is true? What else is my companion? Here in this wear some breathing room, and so Choto, if you happen to be listening to this, there was a battle when we were recording that episode. Do you remember I asked both of them to come to the Questions to Carry with You segment that we close every single episode with and give us their individual questions to Carry with You and coations was this beautiful what else is true? Thing? But Chotos was like man after my own heart. Man like his was full of swearing and just bombs and a little time share on the microphone. Um and he said, he said, I bet you're going to cut mine and you're not going to use it, And I don't actually remember that. I kept it and we kept it. Oh, we used it as a promo yea friends, Okay, so y'all, that's actually a really good enticement promotion for you listening to the lovingly called zen Men episode when we re release it during our break look for or Do I Stay or Do I Go? Caregivers under Stress with the co founders of the New York's Center for Contemplative Care for the one very zen question from Cotion anthy theory, f bomb Ladies, then from Choto. It was such a good episode. It was a really really good one. And I also like, I really love to hear how the stuff that we record here in session, in our in our little booth, hair like what that does for people out in the world and how they're listening to it. So I love that. I love that that taking little pieces from the show and moving it out into the world, that that really happened for you. Okay, do you want to ask me what my favorite show is? Okay, Okay, I have some insider knowledge, so I know that my actual top favorite show is also one of your favorite shows. So I'm going to skip that one for now and go to my conversation with Alexandra Solomon. Right. I love Alexander Solomon. So we are going to re release one of the episodes. I think Alexander and I spoke for so long. We split it into two episodes, and I'm pretty sure we're releasing one of those during the break. I would have to check, but I'm pretty sure we are. And what I loved about it was honestly okay. So so maybe this is a little bit silly, but it was a really fun episode for me. I feel like Dr Solomon and I had a really good vibe together, and we we managed to both support and challenge each other in one episode in ways that we're really fun and we learned from each other like that just hit all the sweet spots for me as a content producer and as a as a human being, always searching for awesome professional colleagues in Pierre, So that was my favorite from that side, from the I get to talk to interesting people about difficult things side and again, right like conversations with interesting people about difficult and awkward things. Like that's the direction we're heading, which means more fun stuff for me and more awkward stuff for you. That's just the way it is. That's that's the way it is when you're behind the microphone. So we've been talking about our favorite episodes of season one. Everybody, We'll be right back after this fresh break. Welcome back to my conversation with my co producer Tanya about our favorite moments for a season one. Let's get right back into that conversation. It's a bunch of teasers for the shows you're gonna hear coming up soon. We just did Tanny's favorite episode, we did my favorite episode, and I think now we get to talk about our joint favorite episode. Do you want to tell everybody what that one is? Yes? It was really hard, not hard to pick a favorite episode, because of course I feel like they're all wonderful. But the one that I can go back and listen to over and over again is the episode you did for avoundin Today, which is called the Love Well. We call it the Love Episode, but it is actually titled The Love Filled World, which you will be able to hear during the break And it was just so beautiful and I really feel and felt when I heard it the first time and being in the room recording it with you getting goose bumps, that the world needs to hear and absorb this message, and you quoted I had to go back and look, here's the thing. Compassion is already an abundant resource. We just don't treat it that way. There's plenty of love and compassion to go around if we stop hoarding it. There is more than enough love and acceptance and compassion for everyone if we treat it like the abundant resource it already is. This is Tanya talking after two years of a pandemic and the loss of life as we know it, political uncertainty, social injustices. We are all fighting to be seen and heard and are afraid there won't be anything left over for us if we don't out grief each other someone who is trying to share their own experience. Again, the concept is so easy and it's so beautiful, but that love is an infinite resource and compassion is an infinite resource. I've been taught that the more we ask a friend how are you doing? I mean, like, how are you really doing? And then listen with intention, not only does it take us out of our own worries, but gives us connection to others in an honest and vulnerable way. It is such a truly beautiful episode with such an important message, with life skills that we, just if we're not already using them, need to use them every day. Yeah, I think daily life is a great, necessary experimental ground for that abundance of compassion that you were just describing right. I love that you said if we don't out grief each other, and that really is what we do in that episode definitely dives into that, but that the whole idea of we can't pay attention to your loss, your loss isn't bad enough, my loss is worse than yours, This sort of escalating conflict of out griefing each other. We only do that when we have a scarce resource. We only compete like that when something is scarce. And so the whole reason for that Favorite Group episode that we call the Love Filled World, I think it's actually going to be called that now we took the Valentine's Day marker off of it when we're going to rerelease it, but really really diving into that grief competition and what kind of world we build when we stop hoarding love and compassion and instead extended to everyone. Actually, this morning, on the way in, I made the mistake of looking at Instagram when I was out walking the dog, which I should really never do. I mean, my personal like my Instagram followers are like ninety nine percent amazing, and on the very rare occasions that one of them is not amazing, Like I really need to see that on my morning dog walk. But I saw it this morning and somebody was whining about, like, how dare you offer support for gun laws or something in this country? And I'm like, well, because people were deserved to not be killed when they're on their way to work or they're at school or that our movie theater. Like gun laws are awesome because they helped to prevent death, which would help to prevent grief, which is totally on brand for me, and I turned it off obviously, but that you know, it turned into this whole like weird out griefing. No one cares about those issues, pay attention to my grief kind of weirdness. I mean, this is my own little extra rant on this here. But like, you don't have to agree with the truth somebody claims about their own lives, but it doesn't hurt you to respect it. It doesn't cost you anything to say. Huh, I don't get that, But I wish you all the love and support in the world, like why be a wanker? The Love Filled World? Subtitle why be it wink? Okay, so you can see probably why that episode is one of my favorites. It's it's actually I'm restraining myself right now from from continuing my ted talk part two on the love fild World and just you know, just listen to that one when it comes out. It really really is one of my favorite episodes. It's such an important message, especially now when there is just so much pain in the world, Not that there wasn't always pain in the world, but we have access to so much more pain than we used to, so much more awareness of pain than we used to have. So be sure to listen to The Love Filled World when it comes out. We did change the title so it no longer will say the Valentine's Day episode. You're going to hear me mention the Valentine's Day thing when you listen to the rerelease of the episode while we're on break. But you know, as I said, it's too good to sit on the shelf for all except for one week out of the year. That's how I feel about it. Agreed. Anyway, one last favorite episode that we are going to rerelease during break is my conversation with psychotherapist and author Alison Denene called what Happens to Childhood Grief when You Grow Up. Now, I'm gonna let Tanya riff On that one, and why that's one of the top ones that we decided to rerelease, Like, I think that's one of our highest rated shows too, right, So why is that? Why do you think that one is one of our highest rated shows. What happens to childhood grief when you grow up? Well, literally, my mind was blown. Like picture the emoji get just gets blown your mind blow, mind blown emoi, mind blown emoji. There's it. When Alison was talking, she mentioned the fact that she had experienced at four years old, losing her mom in a very tragic way and the folks all around her, so her grandparents and other family members were teaching her how to handle grief and the way they handled grief by not talking about it, not talking about the person she lost, not talking about her pain, and that then as she grew into an adult and into adulthood, when she went through her own loss of her partner, her husband, I believe that childhood experience of witnessing how adults grieve then led her to a place of perhaps learning how she didn't want to grieve or how she needed to grieve, and then be an example of that grief. So I thought about my own life that you know, I was raised by a single mom who was amazing, but our family was kind of taught don't cry, don't get angry, don't feel those emotions. Will not necessarily don't cry, but just don't feel those emotions of anger or whatever it happened to be. And so when grief hit for me of actually losing her, I just went into robot mode. I went into I have to fix this, I have to do this, and I need to take care of this person, and I need to take care of that person. And I found myself almost a year in not ever having really explored my own grief because I was I wasn't taught how to grieve, and so I have been very intentional with how I raised my son Amon, who's experiencing the same loss and same grief. That we're doing this differently. We talked about it, We swirled the grief in our heads, and we pop it out of our brains, and we set it aside at night. We do many different things, and so I'm hoping that I'm teaching a new generation that is okay to grieve and that it's okay to talk about your pain anytime and not just in like a therapist office that it's just something you can talk about freely and not be ashamed of. And so that was really what blew my mind was how witnessing grief as a child showed us, or or mimicked for us, how we should grieve as an adult. Yeah, I love that. I love that for so many reasons. One, I really really love themotional education. You give your family, like you learn things and you pass it on, and you try to allow the people in your life to find their own way through grief, knowing that any expression is okay. And we apply skills and tools and boundaries and coping skills around the emotions, but the emotions themselves are welcome. Yeah, And it's it's so interesting about that, Like so many people have losses from childhood, maybe a parent died, maybe a friend died, maybe your grandparent died. And and we you know, so many of us came up through generations that learned to stuff your emotions, stiff upper lip, power, through don't air your dirty laundry, all of these different things, and that sort of the family and cultural lineage of grief avoidance. It can do a lot of damage. Like we um, you know, we haven't talked about this on the show yet, hopefully we'll talk about it in season two. But this intergenerational trauma, intergenerational loss, and how those losses get passed down. There's some thing that I really like mundane description of intergenerational learning and trauma that I read years ago, and like, this person always cut off the ends of their roast beef. I think, like the beef roast before they put them in the oven. They always cut the ends off before they put them in. And they had a visitor over and they were like, why do you do that? And they were like, oh, that's what my mom taught me. You have to do it that way. But it made her curious about why why she did that, and she like called her mom and she's like, oh, honey, I did that because I didn't have a big enough pan. Yeah, that's awesome, right. So I mean that is a very silly example of how we absorb the things that were taught and the things that we observe. And that is never more true than when we are looking at how do the grown ups feel? What is safe to feel? How should I do this? Like one of my old teachers used to say that kids watch the grownups for a living. And I think I say that in my conversation with Alison too, that kids really do watch the grown ups for cues about how they're supposed to do things. And I think you're right. I think one of the reasons that the Conversation with Alison is such a good one and such a high rated show for us is one it acknowledges that lots of very normal people carry around losses from childhood and honestly even losses that they inherited from their family systems that are still being passed down. Not a bad thing, just a thing that happens. So I think there's one there's the recognition of that that a lot of people are carrying that, and too that you get to choose to do things differently, and Alison just tells such a beautiful story about what that means for her and how she wanted to do things differently with her own kids after her husband died a very sudden, accidental death, And that's sort of reparenting yourself in those moments. So what's the name? Do you know the name of that episode? It's It's what happens to childhood grief when you grow up, Alison Denin and you can also find Allison on Instagram if you want to learn more about that. But you know, I'm also obviously going to point you to her in the actual show itself, so you know, look for that. But having these conversations like the three shows that we just talked about, the I can't I can't not call it the zen Men, the zen Men Show. I hope they don't mind that. Guys, if you're listening, I hope you don't mind. But the zen Men show the love filled world and what happens to childhood grief when you grow up. I think the thing that these all point too is how pervasive and normal grief is. It is literally everywhere in everyday life. We just don't tend to call it that, right Who recognizes that the way that their grandparents taught them about grief is actually a grief issue? Like who really looks at something and says, oh, this is something that I learned in childhood and it's really affecting me now. Or you know, I've been scrolling through Twitter and what's happening in Ukraine is really really distressing, Like we don't name those things as grief. So I think the real trick for season two everybody is how to get those kinds of conversations rolling if I could just jump into it, I personally can't wait for season two. As you mentioned, you know, the word grief can be a tricky one and be a tricky topic. But you have always pointed out to us in this first season that grief is lost, grief is love, grief is around us every day, but the word can kind of make a shy away from talking about it when it's really a topic that everyone would benefit from being more at ease and discussing. And I wanted to say this because it happens to be a personal passion of mine. To prove my point, this podcast Hereafter with Megan Divine has been downloaded in over nine countries. So clearly this show this topic transcends borders, cultures, and languages as it is a language of its own that you can see when looking at another person and see their stories staring right back at you. Yeah, that reflection in other people's stories is so powerful and I I love this. Tanya is always feeding me the stats and that you know that this show has shown up in ninety eight different countries around the world. I think you know, just as you just said to you like that. That shows that this really is a universal language. Grief isn't just something that happens when somebody dies or gets a life changing diagnosis or an illness or an injury. Like as my dad said, grief lives in the every day. We just don't call it grief. And I think that this is a an issue that is important for everybody and whether they whether they know it yet or not. This is really a show about all of the ways that it's hard to be here sometimes and it's hard to be human, and we really do need to not only need to talk about this stuff, but we deserve to talk about this stuff. Yeah, I want everybody on the awkward and difficult conversation strain, not just because I like those conversations. The goal for season two is to get more of these conversations rolling. I'm going to be using the break to figure out how to welcome people in so they see themselves and they're very human lives reflected in this very show. How to make people stop self selecting out because they don't think it's for them when it really really is. I want to figure out and I will figure out how to make you feel welcomed and reflected in this show full disclosure, surprising no one. I definitely have an agenda. I can't stop bad things from happening. I try, but I can't. Where I do have some power and some control is in helping making the world a softer, kinder, better skilled place in which to fall apart. Whether you need that space for a ordinary melancholic Tuesday morning or you need it for a long season of cascading loss. I want this show to be the place where you bring all of it, my friends, from the griefy gray area of everyday life, as my dad said, the normal stuff that we don't call grief, right up through the things that completely rearrange the world. I like conversations about awkward and difficult things. So far, eighty thousand or so of you in ninety eight countries around the world also really dig conversations about awkward and difficult things. I like being able to speak into that place with you, especially when I can offer you some advice or redirection or a handy script to help you navigate whatever's gone wrong. And I bet a whole lot of new people would find all of that stuff beautiful and useful too, if they just knew we were here. Getting grief by any name, by whatever you want to call it, Getting that out into the cultural consciousness is the goal here in the vast broad picture of things, giving people a place to feel seen and welcomed in whatever ways life has gone sideways for them, and of course get their questions answered while they're in that place that's gone sideways. That is also Michael, We're getting their friends. We did so much good work in season one, but I want nothing short of everything. While we're on break between seasons, we will be reorganizing and rethinking some things so we can return with a new plan and new guests, and probably some new ridiculous rants too, because those things will never change. While we'round break, you will still get new episodes each week, where rereleasing some of our most popular shows. You heard about three of them in my conversation with Dannia today. I don't remember what the other couple of them are, but they're going to be awesome. You can listen to some of them for the very first time. You can listen to some that you missed. You can listen to some that you just took a whole bunch of notes durring and you want to go back and listen to them again, because I'm quite sure you missed something. This interim season of rerelease shows is like top hits and deep cuts coming at you over the season break. It's going to be great right now though. Coming up next your weekly questions to carry with you, along with instructions for how you can send in your question for us to use on the show. We are still collecting your questions during the season break, so don't miss that part. Friends, We'll be right back each week. I leave you with some questions to carry with you until we meet again. It's part of that whole. This awkward stuff gets easier with practice thing, and I definitely want you to practice, even though the show is between seasons. This week, what's in your small G grief suitcase? Yes, grief case would have been a good word there, but I didn't use it. I mean I kind of did because I just said it. But you're small G lower case G grief suitcase? Where are the small momentary sadness is inherent in each day? And can you notice them? Okay, the point of this question to carry with you is not to overload yourself with all of the sad things in the world like, oh, look that made me feel sad. Oh look, this is a terrible thing. Don't know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about as a daily practice, notice your feelings on a regular basis. Name stuff, recognize stuff, don't let your feelings pile up. Going back to what my dad said, right, like, there is so much grief in everyday life that we don't name grief. And okay, also, very very very sweet. My dad is like my biggest fan in the world. So you know, one of the things he said was, Maggie, it's your work that taught me that all of this sadness is grief. He's like, maybe it's regret, maybe it's melancholy, maybe it's nostalgia, but all of those things are part of grief. And now I know that's okay. Like, hello, friends, that's awesome, And that's kind of what I want for you, right Start noticing the day to day things that you experience, that you feel, and just start being curious about them. Name what's true in the moment, and let yourself know that whatever you feel, it is perfectly normal. Now a reminder everybody, we are rereleasing some of our favorite shows each week while we're on break, so be sure to tune in. Listen to these shows for the first time, Listen again to see what you might have missed. Listen again again to hear what Tanya and I were talking about when we were not entirely purposely vague. There's always going to be something now, Questions. It is time for your weekly reminder that I want your questions on this show. This show is literally nothing without your questions. Because it is a Q and A show. It is going to stay a Q and a show. You can ask me anything you'd like. Bring me your questions about life, friends, not just the big g grief, but also the life is really hard in general right now. Questions you're what do I do when the world is just off enough that it is messing with pretty much everything? Those kinds of questions. This is an advice show for when life goes sideways, which covers a lot of human difficulties. So let's talk them out. Call us at three to three six three three seven six eight and leave a voicemail. If you missed it, you can find the number in the show notes, or visit Megan Divine dot c O if you'd rather send an email. You can do that to write on the website. Megan Divine dot c O. We're collecting all of your questions through the break too. We want to hear from you. I want to hear from you. This show, this world needs your questions together or we can make things better even when we can't make them right. You know how most people are going to scan through their podcast app looking for a new thing, and they're going to see the show description for Hereafter and think, I don't want to talk about that stuff, right. We were just talking about that through this entire last episode of season one. Thing like don't self select out. It's awesome in here anyway. That's where you come in your reviews of the show. Let people know it really isn't all that bad. In here. We talk about heavy stuff, but it's in the service of making things better for everyone. So everyone needs to listen. Spread the word in your workplace, in your social world on social media, and click through to leave a review. I read all those reviews, everybody. They make my day. Subscribe to the show, download episodes, and send in your questions. I want more Hereafter. Grief education doesn't just belong to end of life issues. We just spent a whole show talking about that life is full of losses, from everyday disappointments to events that clearly divide life into before and after. Learning how to talk about all that without cliches or platitudes or simplistic memes. That's an important skill for everybody. Find trainings, workshops, books and resources for every human trying to make their way in the world after something goes horribly wrong at Megan Divine dot c. O Hereafter with Megan Divine is written and produced by me Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown, co produced by Tanya Uhas and Elizabeth Fosio, Edited by Houston Tilly Studio, support by Chris Urine and music provided by Wave Crush. Grief is always going to be a trippy, top trippy topic. Yes, it's the psychedelic elephant to the room. Okay, composure, I can do that, so Wold