Well, recently, a very interesting strategy launched by the Christian Media Association, which has a bit more about it. We've got Doctor Louise, gospel of the Lord. Louise, lovely to meet you. Thank you for your time.

Well, recently, a very interesting strategy launched by the Christian Media Association, which has a bit more about it. We've got Doctor Louise, gospel of the Lord. Louise, lovely to meet you. Thank you for your time.

Thank you so much for having me, Peter.

Thank you so much for having me, Peter.

Tell us a bit about how this has all come about. It sounds like a fabulous idea. Obviously, from our listeners point of view, I think we'd be very supportive of it. But how and why did it happen?

Tell us a bit about how this has all come about. It sounds like a fabulous idea. Obviously, from our listeners point of view, I think we'd be very supportive of it. But how and why did it happen?

Yeah. So I guess, um, Christian Blind Missionary, an organisation that had been around for a very, very long time, so now called CBN and they exist as an international organisation that have this branch locally and for a long time were involved with primarily with overseas work in helping raise money to for cataract surgeries or for wheelchairs, for people with disability in developing countries and so on. But about ten years ago, they put together a program that was really aimed about things that were happening at home domestically in Australia, and what they wanted to do was create training programs that would help churches become more inclusive of people with disability. So there was just a recognition that there was a desire from people within church communities to be more inclusive, but really not having any idea of how to do that. Well. And so the Luke 14 program was put together as something that was there as a set of resources to help churches in taking steps to be more inclusive. And we've just recorded recently a whole new set of videos to go with that to, again, hopefully make that that step towards being inclusive communities even easier for churches.

Yeah. So I guess, um, Christian Blind Missionary, an organisation that had been around for a very, very long time, so now called CBN and they exist as an international organisation that have this branch locally and for a long time were involved with primarily with overseas work in helping raise money to for cataract surgeries or for wheelchairs, for people with disability in developing countries and so on. But about ten years ago, they put together a program that was really aimed about things that were happening at home domestically in Australia, and what they wanted to do was create training programs that would help churches become more inclusive of people with disability. So there was just a recognition that there was a desire from people within church communities to be more inclusive, but really not having any idea of how to do that. Well. And so the Luke 14 program was put together as something that was there as a set of resources to help churches in taking steps to be more inclusive. And we've just recorded recently a whole new set of videos to go with that to, again, hopefully make that that step towards being inclusive communities even easier for churches.

So I guess any organization we talk about, churches in particular can want to do the right thing, but sometimes it's hard to do the right thing. Or what sort of little things can you do that might sort of add to the to the whole picture that makes it more inclusive?

So I guess any organization we talk about, churches in particular can want to do the right thing, but sometimes it's hard to do the right thing. Or what sort of little things can you do that might sort of add to the to the whole picture that makes it more inclusive?

You're exactly right. I think there's a desire but not knowing where to start. I think that's a big thing. Or people worrying, oh, do I have to do everything all at the same time? You know, is this going to be really expensive and overwhelming so people aren't sure where to start? So what we wanted to do was give people some resources that help them to to work out what they can do to take some first steps and really encourage churches to say, of course there's going to be bigger things if you don't have a ramp into your building or you don't have accessible toilets, those are big things. That's going to take a while to prepare for that. But there's so many little things that church communities can do to be more inclusive as well. You know, you think about if making the PowerPoint slides, the text on those big enough that people can read. And there's unfortunately people can be focused on making those PowerPoint slides look pretty and so they can be nice pictures and things in the background. Just trying to explain to people that actually makes it harder for someone with low vision, you know, to read what's on those slides. So there are simple steps that people can take in, you know, making their their church bulletins larger print to make it easier for people to read or, you know, simple things like when it's time to stand up instead of just saying please stand, please stand if you're able, you know, just recognizing for some people you actually you can't stand up, but it doesn't mean that you're less engaged in that service just because you're not able to stand so, so many little things that you can do that make a big difference to people feeling like they belong in your community.

You're exactly right. I think there's a desire but not knowing where to start. I think that's a big thing. Or people worrying, oh, do I have to do everything all at the same time? You know, is this going to be really expensive and overwhelming so people aren't sure where to start? So what we wanted to do was give people some resources that help them to to work out what they can do to take some first steps and really encourage churches to say, of course there's going to be bigger things if you don't have a ramp into your building or you don't have accessible toilets, those are big things. That's going to take a while to prepare for that. But there's so many little things that church communities can do to be more inclusive as well. You know, you think about if making the PowerPoint slides, the text on those big enough that people can read. And there's unfortunately people can be focused on making those PowerPoint slides look pretty and so they can be nice pictures and things in the background. Just trying to explain to people that actually makes it harder for someone with low vision, you know, to read what's on those slides. So there are simple steps that people can take in, you know, making their their church bulletins larger print to make it easier for people to read or, you know, simple things like when it's time to stand up instead of just saying please stand, please stand if you're able, you know, just recognizing for some people you actually you can't stand up, but it doesn't mean that you're less engaged in that service just because you're not able to stand so, so many little things that you can do that make a big difference to people feeling like they belong in your community.

Yes, I often say those simple things can often be the most powerful, can't they?

Yes, I often say those simple things can often be the most powerful, can't they?

They really can. And I think there's something really important about, um, it really is like a welcoming into the community. When people are aware that you are thinking about disability issues, you're interested in disability issues, and it's on your radar because people are, you know, might be nervous if they're coming in. If you're a family with young children, one of those is on the autism spectrum at this church community going to be welcoming. How are they going to react to me and to my family? So there's lots of things that we can do to make sure people know you are welcomed. You know, we want this to be a place where you feel like you can belong. I think church websites are really key for this. You know, the more information you can have on your website about the facilities that you have, whether you do have a ramp, accessible toilets and a hearing loop or whatever it might be, the more information you can put on your website so that that's findable for people online. I think that's really key.

They really can. And I think there's something really important about, um, it really is like a welcoming into the community. When people are aware that you are thinking about disability issues, you're interested in disability issues, and it's on your radar because people are, you know, might be nervous if they're coming in. If you're a family with young children, one of those is on the autism spectrum at this church community going to be welcoming. How are they going to react to me and to my family? So there's lots of things that we can do to make sure people know you are welcomed. You know, we want this to be a place where you feel like you can belong. I think church websites are really key for this. You know, the more information you can have on your website about the facilities that you have, whether you do have a ramp, accessible toilets and a hearing loop or whatever it might be, the more information you can put on your website so that that's findable for people online. I think that's really key.

What about in terms of receptiveness, you know, to to to feedback about anything that might be happening at your church, be it your website or just, you know, stuff that's happening during services? I mean, I guess these are some great resources, but churches individually can, you know, sort of take on board suggestions or things that people say to them that might be a good idea as well?

What about in terms of receptiveness, you know, to to to feedback about anything that might be happening at your church, be it your website or just, you know, stuff that's happening during services? I mean, I guess these are some great resources, but churches individually can, you know, sort of take on board suggestions or things that people say to them that might be a good idea as well?

Yeah, I think that's really important actually. So one of the things that, uh, I wrote a set of guidelines for churches, for Anglican churches in Sydney where I'm based. And one of the key things that I say to people in that is, is that the people that you have in your community are your best resource as your starting point. So I encourage churches to do a community audit essentially. So asking people, how do you think we're going on disability inclusion? You know, what things are you involved in. But you might like to be involved in other things, you know, but you feel like you can't because Bible studies are too late in the night time. You know, for you as someone with chronic illness or whatever it might be. So actually opening up that dialogue so people in the congregation have an opportunity to say, these are the things that I think we're doing well as a church. These are the things we might not be doing quite so well. These are the things I'd love to be involved in, but these are the barriers that are making it hard for me. And that actually gives the church a really practical, tactile place to start to, you know, to start to make a difference. So you might hear from people that say, actually, you know, the morning service in winter. It's really hard for me to get there if it's at 8:00 in the morning. Have you thought about doing online services in the winter? You know, for people, whatever it might be? I just think for people with disability you already have in your congregations should be your starting point, your best resource. And listening to them. What's going well, not so well. And using that to start to make, you know, changes one step at a time. Once you once you, you know, really paid attention and listened well to people's stories.

Yeah, I think that's really important actually. So one of the things that, uh, I wrote a set of guidelines for churches, for Anglican churches in Sydney where I'm based. And one of the key things that I say to people in that is, is that the people that you have in your community are your best resource as your starting point. So I encourage churches to do a community audit essentially. So asking people, how do you think we're going on disability inclusion? You know, what things are you involved in. But you might like to be involved in other things, you know, but you feel like you can't because Bible studies are too late in the night time. You know, for you as someone with chronic illness or whatever it might be. So actually opening up that dialogue so people in the congregation have an opportunity to say, these are the things that I think we're doing well as a church. These are the things we might not be doing quite so well. These are the things I'd love to be involved in, but these are the barriers that are making it hard for me. And that actually gives the church a really practical, tactile place to start to, you know, to start to make a difference. So you might hear from people that say, actually, you know, the morning service in winter. It's really hard for me to get there if it's at 8:00 in the morning. Have you thought about doing online services in the winter? You know, for people, whatever it might be? I just think for people with disability you already have in your congregations should be your starting point, your best resource. And listening to them. What's going well, not so well. And using that to start to make, you know, changes one step at a time. Once you once you, you know, really paid attention and listened well to people's stories.

Yeah. Change the world one change at a time. That's not a bad thing either, at least without kind of wanting to go too far the other way, I guess something that kind of is equally inclusive, but kind of, you might not think of it that way, is not being overbearing and wanting to help. I mean, sometimes people can have the best intentions and it's kind of a bit overwhelming. I'm fine. I can sit down by myself or I can I can, you know, make my way over there by myself. I don't, you know, I don't need this overwhelming amount of help as well.

Yeah. Change the world one change at a time. That's not a bad thing either, at least without kind of wanting to go too far the other way, I guess something that kind of is equally inclusive, but kind of, you might not think of it that way, is not being overbearing and wanting to help. I mean, sometimes people can have the best intentions and it's kind of a bit overwhelming. I'm fine. I can sit down by myself or I can I can, you know, make my way over there by myself. I don't, you know, I don't need this overwhelming amount of help as well.

Yeah. I think that's really, really an important point. Peter, I think people do want to help, you know, especially church communities. People are keen to help one another, but it's respecting people's agencies. And in allowing if they say no, it's no, that's okay. They don't need your help and you don't need to take it personally or be offended. Just recognize they don't need your help. They might need it another time. And so don't not ever ask again. But just recognize if someone says no, that that's it. And and that might be in lots of different practical ways. As you said, it might be finding the seat, but it might be that, you know, you might need a lift somewhere, or someone might be perfectly happy to get the bus to church. That's fine. Or it might be even offering to pray for someone if they're going through a hard time. Offering to pray for them, but also, you know, allowing people to say no if they don't want that at particular point as well. So it really is, I think, important to to recognize everyone's situation is different. And you can ask you can offer to help. But if people say no, respect them enough to yeah. Accept that. No. Is that answer.

Yeah. I think that's really, really an important point. Peter, I think people do want to help, you know, especially church communities. People are keen to help one another, but it's respecting people's agencies. And in allowing if they say no, it's no, that's okay. They don't need your help and you don't need to take it personally or be offended. Just recognize they don't need your help. They might need it another time. And so don't not ever ask again. But just recognize if someone says no, that that's it. And and that might be in lots of different practical ways. As you said, it might be finding the seat, but it might be that, you know, you might need a lift somewhere, or someone might be perfectly happy to get the bus to church. That's fine. Or it might be even offering to pray for someone if they're going through a hard time. Offering to pray for them, but also, you know, allowing people to say no if they don't want that at particular point as well. So it really is, I think, important to to recognize everyone's situation is different. And you can ask you can offer to help. But if people say no, respect them enough to yeah. Accept that. No. Is that answer.

That's a great point about people different because I will cut if you like the general community slack as far as a person with a disability goes, because, you know, you might meet someone says, I've got a visual impairment. They seem to be able to manage quite well, I think. Well, you haven't got a visual impairment. Oh, well, actually I have, but you know, I, I can see reasonably well. And then you might meet someone else who might not have any sight at all. So their circumstance is different. And sometimes it's very hard for the general public to get their head around it because it's like a person who's blind or whatever. So I think everyone's the same. But of course they're not. But I can understand that for the general public, that can take a little bit of, um, kind of working out, Yeah. Working out as you go along.

That's a great point about people different because I will cut if you like the general community slack as far as a person with a disability goes, because, you know, you might meet someone says, I've got a visual impairment. They seem to be able to manage quite well, I think. Well, you haven't got a visual impairment. Oh, well, actually I have, but you know, I, I can see reasonably well. And then you might meet someone else who might not have any sight at all. So their circumstance is different. And sometimes it's very hard for the general public to get their head around it because it's like a person who's blind or whatever. So I think everyone's the same. But of course they're not. But I can understand that for the general public, that can take a little bit of, um, kind of working out, Yeah. Working out as you go along.

Yeah. It's so true. And. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't want people to not ever offer help at all because some people might actually need it if they need to be navigated around the, you know, the space, if there's when there's lots of seats or there's kids running around with morning tea. So you certainly wouldn't want people to think to never offer it, because you're exactly right. Everyone's situation is different. And that's that's a really important point, then, isn't it? If you offer help to one person with low vision and they say no, doesn't mean don't ever offer it again because someone else actually might find that help really valuable. So yeah, everyone is in a very different position and understanding that if you've lived with that disability your whole life, you might feel differently about that than someone who is, you know, has low vision in their older age. So everyone's experience of that is going to be different.

Yeah. It's so true. And. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't want people to not ever offer help at all because some people might actually need it if they need to be navigated around the, you know, the space, if there's when there's lots of seats or there's kids running around with morning tea. So you certainly wouldn't want people to think to never offer it, because you're exactly right. Everyone's situation is different. And that's that's a really important point, then, isn't it? If you offer help to one person with low vision and they say no, doesn't mean don't ever offer it again because someone else actually might find that help really valuable. So yeah, everyone is in a very different position and understanding that if you've lived with that disability your whole life, you might feel differently about that than someone who is, you know, has low vision in their older age. So everyone's experience of that is going to be different.

And lighting as well, of course, can make a lot of difference how much light there is at that particular time compared to another time.

And lighting as well, of course, can make a lot of difference how much light there is at that particular time compared to another time.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And so the lighting in an auditorium in a church building can be very different for an evening service when you've got, you know, fluorescent lights than it would be in a morning service, for example. So the reflection off the paper or off the PowerPoint screen, it might be different. And so yeah, some people might be fine in the morning, but find it harder to read what's on the screen in the nighttime. So just being aware again of those. Yeah. The environmental differences too.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And so the lighting in an auditorium in a church building can be very different for an evening service when you've got, you know, fluorescent lights than it would be in a morning service, for example. So the reflection off the paper or off the PowerPoint screen, it might be different. And so yeah, some people might be fine in the morning, but find it harder to read what's on the screen in the nighttime. So just being aware again of those. Yeah. The environmental differences too.

Well what about in terms of who this resource is available to? Because obviously there's a number of different denominations I think we call them religions.

Well what about in terms of who this resource is available to? Because obviously there's a number of different denominations I think we call them religions.

Yeah. So it's just it's a free resource available for anyone these videos. So we've really tried to make it something that anyone can go in and download. It doesn't matter what denomination you're from. We really just wanted to give people the skills so that they've got some, you know, basic knowledge about understanding some concepts of disability and some simple steps that people can take. So it's not it's certainly not exhaustive. You know, there are more comprehensive I teach subjects at a theological college on disability. So you can come and do a whole subject, you know, but this is just about trying to help churches start on that journey, you know, of simple steps that they can take. And the biggest thing that we really encourage people to do is, you know, to learn from the people in their community and use that as their starting point. But yes, there are free videos. You can download them from the CCM website and anyone can access those videos.

Yeah. So it's just it's a free resource available for anyone these videos. So we've really tried to make it something that anyone can go in and download. It doesn't matter what denomination you're from. We really just wanted to give people the skills so that they've got some, you know, basic knowledge about understanding some concepts of disability and some simple steps that people can take. So it's not it's certainly not exhaustive. You know, there are more comprehensive I teach subjects at a theological college on disability. So you can come and do a whole subject, you know, but this is just about trying to help churches start on that journey, you know, of simple steps that they can take. And the biggest thing that we really encourage people to do is, you know, to learn from the people in their community and use that as their starting point. But yes, there are free videos. You can download them from the CCM website and anyone can access those videos.

If you just took me back a few years. Louise, I've been doing this program for a while. I know for a number of years, particularly in Adelaide, there was a, um, if you like, a local branch of Christian Blind Mission. So that's going back a while. I think it then kind of disbanded.

If you just took me back a few years. Louise, I've been doing this program for a while. I know for a number of years, particularly in Adelaide, there was a, um, if you like, a local branch of Christian Blind Mission. So that's going back a while. I think it then kind of disbanded.

Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah. So the main office is in, in Melbourne. So a lot of, um, work happens down there. I'm based in Sydney, so it works. It works out well for me to be able to do some work representing CBM around, uh, around Sydney. And so I often speak at churches or do lectures or speaking things where I get the opportunity to talk to people about disability in church communities. So it's a great privilege and an amazing thing where I've seen a lot of change over, say, the last ten years as CBM have really put so much effort into these resources and wanting to equip churches better. So it's been amazing just to see that growth in interest and churches becoming more aware of, oh, I haven't thought about this intentionally, but I realize now, actually we need to be thinking about this a little bit more. So to see that change has been incredible.

Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah. So the main office is in, in Melbourne. So a lot of, um, work happens down there. I'm based in Sydney, so it works. It works out well for me to be able to do some work representing CBM around, uh, around Sydney. And so I often speak at churches or do lectures or speaking things where I get the opportunity to talk to people about disability in church communities. So it's a great privilege and an amazing thing where I've seen a lot of change over, say, the last ten years as CBM have really put so much effort into these resources and wanting to equip churches better. So it's been amazing just to see that growth in interest and churches becoming more aware of, oh, I haven't thought about this intentionally, but I realize now, actually we need to be thinking about this a little bit more. So to see that change has been incredible.

Well, long might long may it continue. Um, where can people go to find out more? And we'll put this information up in our show notes. But, uh, what's a good starting point in terms of. Yes.

Well, long might long may it continue. Um, where can people go to find out more? And we'll put this information up in our show notes. But, uh, what's a good starting point in terms of. Yes.

So if you go to our CBM org.au. Forward slash Luke 14, then you'll be able to find those resources there.

So if you go to our CBM org.au. Forward slash Luke 14, then you'll be able to find those resources there.

Okay. We'll put that up with our show notes. We'd love to talk to you. Sounds like a wonderful initiative. And I guess in a sense it's kind of got broader application as well, because if people are learning in the church about disability, they can kind of take that out when they go shopping or whatever they do outside their church as well.

Okay. We'll put that up with our show notes. We'd love to talk to you. Sounds like a wonderful initiative. And I guess in a sense it's kind of got broader application as well, because if people are learning in the church about disability, they can kind of take that out when they go shopping or whatever they do outside their church as well.

Yeah, I certainly hope that's the case. Peter. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I certainly hope that's the case. Peter. Yeah, absolutely.

Appreciate your time.

Appreciate your time.

Yeah. Thank you. So good to talk to you.

Yeah. Thank you. So good to talk to you.

Gospel. They're talking about some resources that have just been recently launched regarding making the church more inclusive.

Gospel. They're talking about some resources that have just been recently launched regarding making the church more inclusive.