Hi friend! Thank you so much for downloading this podcast of In the Market with Janet Parshall, and I sincerely hope you hear something that will encourage you, edify you, enlighten you, equip you, and then we'll get you out the door into the marketplace of ideas. But before you go, let me tell you a little bit about this month's truth tool. It's written by a man who is a chronic doubter. Doctor Bobby Conway was a Christian, and after years he began doubting his own faith. As a result of that, he's come out now stronger, fully committed to the validity and the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, but keenly aware of the kinds of questions that chronic doubters ask. So in his book, Does Christianity Still Make sense? Doctor Conway does a superb job of telling us how we can answer 20 of the most difficult questions you and I will ever be asked about Christianity. Questions like why are there so many scandals in the church? And aren't Christians just a bunch of hypocrites? And why does God allow evil in the world? Is there really reliable evidence for the existence of God? This is a must read for everyone who wants to know how to contend for the faith when they get out there in the marketplace of ideas. This is this month's truth tool, and it's my way of saying thank you. When you give a gift of any amount to in the market with Janet Parshall, just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 and ask for your copy of Does Christianity Still Make sense? And I'll gladly send it off to you as my way of saying thank you for financially supporting this program. You can also give online just go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover of the book. Click on Make Your Donation online. And likewise you'll also get a copy of Does Christianity Still make Sense? While you're there, consider becoming a partial partner. Those are my group of friends who give every single month at a level of their own choosing. They always get the truth tool of the month every month, as long as they're a partial partner. And they will also get a weekly newsletter from me that includes some of my writing and an audio piece just for my partial partners. So pray about it. Consider a one time gift or an ongoing contributor to the program by becoming a partial partner. 877. Janet 58. That's 877. Janet 58. Or online at In the Market with Janet parshall.org. Thanks so much. And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi friends. This is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for choosing to spend the next hour with us. Today's program is pre-recorded so our phone lines are not open. But thanks so much for being with us and enjoy the broadcast.

Hi friend! Thank you so much for downloading this podcast of In the Market with Janet Parshall, and I sincerely hope you hear something that will encourage you, edify you, enlighten you, equip you, and then we'll get you out the door into the marketplace of ideas. But before you go, let me tell you a little bit about this month's truth tool. It's written by a man who is a chronic doubter. Doctor Bobby Conway was a Christian, and after years he began doubting his own faith. As a result of that, he's come out now stronger, fully committed to the validity and the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, but keenly aware of the kinds of questions that chronic doubters ask. So in his book, Does Christianity Still Make sense? Doctor Conway does a superb job of telling us how we can answer 20 of the most difficult questions you and I will ever be asked about Christianity. Questions like why are there so many scandals in the church? And aren't Christians just a bunch of hypocrites? And why does God allow evil in the world? Is there really reliable evidence for the existence of God? This is a must read for everyone who wants to know how to contend for the faith when they get out there in the marketplace of ideas. This is this month's truth tool, and it's my way of saying thank you. When you give a gift of any amount to in the market with Janet Parshall, just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 and ask for your copy of Does Christianity Still Make sense? And I'll gladly send it off to you as my way of saying thank you for financially supporting this program. You can also give online just go to in the market with Janet parshall.org. Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover of the book. Click on Make Your Donation online. And likewise you'll also get a copy of Does Christianity Still make Sense? While you're there, consider becoming a partial partner. Those are my group of friends who give every single month at a level of their own choosing. They always get the truth tool of the month every month, as long as they're a partial partner. And they will also get a weekly newsletter from me that includes some of my writing and an audio piece just for my partial partners. So pray about it. Consider a one time gift or an ongoing contributor to the program by becoming a partial partner. 877. Janet 58. That's 877. Janet 58. Or online at In the Market with Janet parshall.org. Thanks so much. And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi friends. This is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for choosing to spend the next hour with us. Today's program is pre-recorded so our phone lines are not open. But thanks so much for being with us and enjoy the broadcast.

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

The conference was over. The president won a pledge for.

The conference was over. The president won a pledge for.

Americans worshiping government over God.

Americans worshiping government over God.

Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.

Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.

The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated a.

The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated a.

Truce.

Truce.

Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for spending the hour with us. Hey, you just heard all that noise in the marketplace. We talk often about the fact that there's some pretty shabby, counterfeit ideas that are being bought and sold to the highest bidder. There's also truth in that marketplace. But I'll tell you what marks the marketplace more than ideas. It's people. And here's what I know beyond a shadow of a doubt. You walk around in that marketplace of ideas, you're going to find all kinds of people for whom they don't have a clue who Jesus is. In fact, they would categorically call themselves a skeptic, a sinner, a seeker. Maybe they'd even call themselves an agnostic, or perhaps even boldly declare themselves to be an atheist. And because John 17 reminds us that's exactly where we're supposed to go is out into that mess, that muck, that mire. That world turned upside down where good is called evil and evil is called good. You're not to circumnavigate it. I'm hearkening back to my friend John Bunyan, who said Christian and faithful must needs pass through it, which is fancy English talk, for it ain't no detour. We walk right smack dab into the middle of that upside down world, and John 17 reminds us that when Jesus was talking to his ABBA Father, his daddy, he said, my prayer is not that you take them out of the world. So into the world is exactly where we're called. I have a question. You may use a lifeline or call a friend. You can talk among yourselves. On one hand, right now, quietly in the voice inside your own head. Name five non-believing Christian friends that you have. Hum hum hum hum hum hum. Can you do that? Well, if you can't, you're not alone. All the data out there says we tend to insulate. We tend to pull ourselves in. If 92% of us. And that's a staggering, almost incomprehensible, unbelievable, troubling, troublesome number, 92% of us. Once we come to faith in Jesus Christ, we don't even talk to anybody else. We have no substantive faith conversations once we come to faith in Christ. I don't get that. If Peter and John said, we can't stop talking about that which we've seen and heard, if the Scripture says, out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks, how can you keep this news to yourself. So you got the news, and then you have the person who has a perception of who you are as a follower of Christ. They themselves are on a journey. Don't let their title scare you one iota. How do I know that? Because God has placed eternity in the heart of every single one of us. And when they put the cat out at night and pull the sheets under their chin, they're asking the big questions too. They might not want you to know they're asking the big questions, but they are. But mostly they're reading you the living epistle. What is it about you that either draws them closer to that inner circle where they're going to find not truth, but just the one who calls himself truth? Or what is it about us that actually makes them step back, rather than step in and step closer? That's what we're going to talk about this hour. We're going to tell you something about the Doubters Club, and we're going to talk with Preston Elmer on that, because he happens to be the founder and director of the Doubters Club, an organization that teaches Christians and atheists to model friendship and pursue truth together. He also serves as the director of network development for the church multiplication network CNN. That's the church planting arm of the Assemblies of God. And before he joined CNN, he served in ministry for years as a youth pastor, a youth adult pastor and church planter. He also has two, not one two master's degrees, one in religion, one in divinity, and his experience in education led him and his family to plant a church in Denver, Colorado, where he also founded the Doubters Club. He joins us today because there's a continuum here. He's written a book called The Doubters Club good Faith conversations with skeptics, atheists, and the Spiritually Wounded. Preston, the Warmest of Welcomes. Thank you so much for the gift of one hour of your time. I can't give it back. And the older I get, the more I realize what a priceless commodity time is. So thanks for giving it to us.

Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for spending the hour with us. Hey, you just heard all that noise in the marketplace. We talk often about the fact that there's some pretty shabby, counterfeit ideas that are being bought and sold to the highest bidder. There's also truth in that marketplace. But I'll tell you what marks the marketplace more than ideas. It's people. And here's what I know beyond a shadow of a doubt. You walk around in that marketplace of ideas, you're going to find all kinds of people for whom they don't have a clue who Jesus is. In fact, they would categorically call themselves a skeptic, a sinner, a seeker. Maybe they'd even call themselves an agnostic, or perhaps even boldly declare themselves to be an atheist. And because John 17 reminds us that's exactly where we're supposed to go is out into that mess, that muck, that mire. That world turned upside down where good is called evil and evil is called good. You're not to circumnavigate it. I'm hearkening back to my friend John Bunyan, who said Christian and faithful must needs pass through it, which is fancy English talk, for it ain't no detour. We walk right smack dab into the middle of that upside down world, and John 17 reminds us that when Jesus was talking to his ABBA Father, his daddy, he said, my prayer is not that you take them out of the world. So into the world is exactly where we're called. I have a question. You may use a lifeline or call a friend. You can talk among yourselves. On one hand, right now, quietly in the voice inside your own head. Name five non-believing Christian friends that you have. Hum hum hum hum hum hum. Can you do that? Well, if you can't, you're not alone. All the data out there says we tend to insulate. We tend to pull ourselves in. If 92% of us. And that's a staggering, almost incomprehensible, unbelievable, troubling, troublesome number, 92% of us. Once we come to faith in Jesus Christ, we don't even talk to anybody else. We have no substantive faith conversations once we come to faith in Christ. I don't get that. If Peter and John said, we can't stop talking about that which we've seen and heard, if the Scripture says, out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks, how can you keep this news to yourself. So you got the news, and then you have the person who has a perception of who you are as a follower of Christ. They themselves are on a journey. Don't let their title scare you one iota. How do I know that? Because God has placed eternity in the heart of every single one of us. And when they put the cat out at night and pull the sheets under their chin, they're asking the big questions too. They might not want you to know they're asking the big questions, but they are. But mostly they're reading you the living epistle. What is it about you that either draws them closer to that inner circle where they're going to find not truth, but just the one who calls himself truth? Or what is it about us that actually makes them step back, rather than step in and step closer? That's what we're going to talk about this hour. We're going to tell you something about the Doubters Club, and we're going to talk with Preston Elmer on that, because he happens to be the founder and director of the Doubters Club, an organization that teaches Christians and atheists to model friendship and pursue truth together. He also serves as the director of network development for the church multiplication network CNN. That's the church planting arm of the Assemblies of God. And before he joined CNN, he served in ministry for years as a youth pastor, a youth adult pastor and church planter. He also has two, not one two master's degrees, one in religion, one in divinity, and his experience in education led him and his family to plant a church in Denver, Colorado, where he also founded the Doubters Club. He joins us today because there's a continuum here. He's written a book called The Doubters Club good Faith conversations with skeptics, atheists, and the Spiritually Wounded. Preston, the Warmest of Welcomes. Thank you so much for the gift of one hour of your time. I can't give it back. And the older I get, the more I realize what a priceless commodity time is. So thanks for giving it to us.

You're welcome. It's a pleasure to be on your show.

You're welcome. It's a pleasure to be on your show.

Thank you so much. Okay, of course, inquiring minds want to know what's the difference between a degree in religion and a degree in divinity?

Thank you so much. Okay, of course, inquiring minds want to know what's the difference between a degree in religion and a degree in divinity?

Well, one takes two more years than the other, I guess. Uh, and other than that, it's just for my own sanity. I just needed to keep learning because during my undergraduate I actually left the faith. And so I tell people the master's degree were actually for me. They weren't for you. And so that's the difference, I think two years difference. And I just needed I had a lot more questions. I needed to keep learning.

Well, one takes two more years than the other, I guess. Uh, and other than that, it's just for my own sanity. I just needed to keep learning because during my undergraduate I actually left the faith. And so I tell people the master's degree were actually for me. They weren't for you. And so that's the difference, I think two years difference. And I just needed I had a lot more questions. I needed to keep learning.

So if I were to open a syllabus and I wanted to pursue one of these two is when you talk about getting a master's in religion, is it like comparative theology and how does that differ from a Sibelius for a Sibelius, a syllabus for divinity.

So if I were to open a syllabus and I wanted to pursue one of these two is when you talk about getting a master's in religion, is it like comparative theology and how does that differ from a Sibelius for a Sibelius, a syllabus for divinity.

So the religion was more it's going to be some of your basic courses around world religions. Um, and just some, you know, homiletics, exegesis, some basic courses about how do you preach the Bible, how do you study the Bible, those sort of things. Master Divinity has more electives. It could be, uh, you could be specialized in different areas. And so for me, and it has more diving into the biblical languages. So that was that would be the actual difference according to the syllabus.

So the religion was more it's going to be some of your basic courses around world religions. Um, and just some, you know, homiletics, exegesis, some basic courses about how do you preach the Bible, how do you study the Bible, those sort of things. Master Divinity has more electives. It could be, uh, you could be specialized in different areas. And so for me, and it has more diving into the biblical languages. So that was that would be the actual difference according to the syllabus.

Wow. What was your focus in the Masters in Divinity?

Wow. What was your focus in the Masters in Divinity?

Yeah. Well, mine was actually apologetics. So it was the role in history of apologetics when it comes to evangelism. So my whole thesis was on was on that actually.

Yeah. Well, mine was actually apologetics. So it was the role in history of apologetics when it comes to evangelism. So my whole thesis was on was on that actually.

Well, can I linger here because you had to write a paper on it. So I bet you got a lot to say. You know, there are a lot of the church. We grade on a curve here. So you're okay? Okay, good. My question is there has been unfortunately, the pendulum goes back and forth in the church capital C universal. And sometimes we go through this horrible situation where we are anti-intellectual that it's faith and not reason. And that will get into our conversation about the Doubters Club for sure, because we create this false hypothesis that it's an either or proposition. So when we talk about apologetics, some people will push back because they're thinking, look, just give them the Word of God. You don't need to have to give a defense. You just give them the word of God. Give me a 32nd elevator speech. Why are apologetics crucial in the world of evangelism?

Well, can I linger here because you had to write a paper on it. So I bet you got a lot to say. You know, there are a lot of the church. We grade on a curve here. So you're okay? Okay, good. My question is there has been unfortunately, the pendulum goes back and forth in the church capital C universal. And sometimes we go through this horrible situation where we are anti-intellectual that it's faith and not reason. And that will get into our conversation about the Doubters Club for sure, because we create this false hypothesis that it's an either or proposition. So when we talk about apologetics, some people will push back because they're thinking, look, just give them the Word of God. You don't need to have to give a defense. You just give them the word of God. Give me a 32nd elevator speech. Why are apologetics crucial in the world of evangelism?

Yeah, well, apologetics is actually, you know, it's the ability to defend the faith, but especially in a culture that's going to be hyper critical. And it's a thinking culture. So what what used to be asked in the mission field is now asked next door. And we need to be able to say, okay, this is why I think the way that I think. So I think apologetics actually for the maturity of the believer. And when it comes to evangelism, it's going to help the unbeliever think, okay, maybe there is reason to explore this.

Yeah, well, apologetics is actually, you know, it's the ability to defend the faith, but especially in a culture that's going to be hyper critical. And it's a thinking culture. So what what used to be asked in the mission field is now asked next door. And we need to be able to say, okay, this is why I think the way that I think. So I think apologetics actually for the maturity of the believer. And when it comes to evangelism, it's going to help the unbeliever think, okay, maybe there is reason to explore this.

Yeah. Excellent. You couldn't have given a better answer. Thank you for that, Preston. When we come back, I didn't miss it. And I'll bet the people listening all across the country didn't miss it. I want to go back to your undergrad years, and I want to find out why you walked away from the faith. And I think that's important, particularly if you're going to challenge us to engage with the skeptic and the atheist. So I want to find out what caused you to step back. Preston, Elmer is with us. He's got a brand new book out that is so germane to the days and age in which we live. I like particularly what he said, questions asked on the mission field and are being asked over the back fence. And by the way, it's a much more sophisticated kind of tribe, if I can use that word. My buddies growing up worked with New Tribes Bible Institute that's now called Ethnos360. And of course, there would be kinds of questions there that wouldn't have had a 21st century spin to them. How to answer questions about why there is evil in the world, or is there evidence for the existence of God? That's why I've chosen. Does Christianity still make sense? As this month's truth tool read how a chronic doubter responded to 20 of the most difficult questions about Christianity. As for your copy of Does Christianity still make sense when you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org Preston Elmer is our guest this hour, founder and director of the Doubters Club. Not to be confused with Fight Club. That's a whole different story. But this doubters club, which is so perfect for the 21st century. In the post-truth world in which you find ourselves, that's an organization that teaches Christians and atheists to model friendship and pursue truth together. He wrote a book that bears the same title, The Doubters Club Good Faith conversations with skeptics, atheists, and the Spiritually Wounded. So when last we met, Preston, you talked about your undergrad and why you walked away from the faith, which is when you pursued not one but two masters. It was about helping you get it all together, really step into the world of apologetics. So something very powerful happened between undergrad and grad. But first, tell me, what caused you to step back in your undergrad years?

Yeah. Excellent. You couldn't have given a better answer. Thank you for that, Preston. When we come back, I didn't miss it. And I'll bet the people listening all across the country didn't miss it. I want to go back to your undergrad years, and I want to find out why you walked away from the faith. And I think that's important, particularly if you're going to challenge us to engage with the skeptic and the atheist. So I want to find out what caused you to step back. Preston, Elmer is with us. He's got a brand new book out that is so germane to the days and age in which we live. I like particularly what he said, questions asked on the mission field and are being asked over the back fence. And by the way, it's a much more sophisticated kind of tribe, if I can use that word. My buddies growing up worked with New Tribes Bible Institute that's now called Ethnos360. And of course, there would be kinds of questions there that wouldn't have had a 21st century spin to them. How to answer questions about why there is evil in the world, or is there evidence for the existence of God? That's why I've chosen. Does Christianity still make sense? As this month's truth tool read how a chronic doubter responded to 20 of the most difficult questions about Christianity. As for your copy of Does Christianity still make sense when you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org Preston Elmer is our guest this hour, founder and director of the Doubters Club. Not to be confused with Fight Club. That's a whole different story. But this doubters club, which is so perfect for the 21st century. In the post-truth world in which you find ourselves, that's an organization that teaches Christians and atheists to model friendship and pursue truth together. He wrote a book that bears the same title, The Doubters Club Good Faith conversations with skeptics, atheists, and the Spiritually Wounded. So when last we met, Preston, you talked about your undergrad and why you walked away from the faith, which is when you pursued not one but two masters. It was about helping you get it all together, really step into the world of apologetics. So something very powerful happened between undergrad and grad. But first, tell me, what caused you to step back in your undergrad years?

Yeah, well, it's a great question, and I guess it's not as uncommon as I thought it was. I used to think that, man, this is this is a weird testimony to say I left. Well, I was actually in a Bible college to to say that I left the faith in Bible college. And the more I speak on college campuses, the more I realize that's not as uncommon. So I started having questions. I was on a preaching team. I mean, I was doing all the ministry you could be doing, and I started to have one summer I was having these questions is between sophomore and junior year in Bible college. I had questions about the existence of God, and then they just started to snowball, became more existential questions. I mean, I remember actually, when I took a philosophy class a year later, I realized I'm not crazy. There are crazy people who live before me who asked and wrote about this stuff that I'm thinking about. And, uh, and whenever I had these questions, I had well-meaning people. They had good intentions, but they just gave really bad advice. So I had one person tell me, sleep on the Bible, uh, whenever I had these questions, they're going, you need to get the word of God in your head like osmosis, right? And I'm like, oh, and I don't know if it's because I, I read or I slept on the NIV, not the ESV. Whatever it was, it didn't work. Um, another person told me, listen to more worship music. And here's the deal I like worship music, but I also like other music too. And so there's nothing more frustrating than when you're leaving the faith and you have Hillsong playing non-stop in the background. And uh, and I again, well intentioned people, really bad advice. And so I thought, if this is what it means to be a thinking person is that Christianity can't handle just some basic questions, I'm out. I cannot do this. So I left the faith and it was, uh, it was a philosophy professor who heard about my questions about a summer, the summer that I had. And he said, hey, I would like to help you answer those questions. And at the time, I was really suspicious, like, he's just trying to convert me. And then he said this thing that set the trajectory for the rest of my life. And you'll see a correlation between this and how we do the Doubters Club. But he said, he said, I don't care where you land as long as you're honest. He said, you don't ever have to think like me. He just had. He thought I had integrity in this journey of seeking. And he believed that if God is truth, the closer I get to truth, the closer I get to God. It took a while, but then I came back and I realized, wow, this is a vibrant thing, this relationship with Jesus. And it's based now on confidence, not on certainty. There's a lot of shifts that happen in my life in that process, but that's kind of the history of how I left the faith.

Yeah, well, it's a great question, and I guess it's not as uncommon as I thought it was. I used to think that, man, this is this is a weird testimony to say I left. Well, I was actually in a Bible college to to say that I left the faith in Bible college. And the more I speak on college campuses, the more I realize that's not as uncommon. So I started having questions. I was on a preaching team. I mean, I was doing all the ministry you could be doing, and I started to have one summer I was having these questions is between sophomore and junior year in Bible college. I had questions about the existence of God, and then they just started to snowball, became more existential questions. I mean, I remember actually, when I took a philosophy class a year later, I realized I'm not crazy. There are crazy people who live before me who asked and wrote about this stuff that I'm thinking about. And, uh, and whenever I had these questions, I had well-meaning people. They had good intentions, but they just gave really bad advice. So I had one person tell me, sleep on the Bible, uh, whenever I had these questions, they're going, you need to get the word of God in your head like osmosis, right? And I'm like, oh, and I don't know if it's because I, I read or I slept on the NIV, not the ESV. Whatever it was, it didn't work. Um, another person told me, listen to more worship music. And here's the deal I like worship music, but I also like other music too. And so there's nothing more frustrating than when you're leaving the faith and you have Hillsong playing non-stop in the background. And uh, and I again, well intentioned people, really bad advice. And so I thought, if this is what it means to be a thinking person is that Christianity can't handle just some basic questions, I'm out. I cannot do this. So I left the faith and it was, uh, it was a philosophy professor who heard about my questions about a summer, the summer that I had. And he said, hey, I would like to help you answer those questions. And at the time, I was really suspicious, like, he's just trying to convert me. And then he said this thing that set the trajectory for the rest of my life. And you'll see a correlation between this and how we do the Doubters Club. But he said, he said, I don't care where you land as long as you're honest. He said, you don't ever have to think like me. He just had. He thought I had integrity in this journey of seeking. And he believed that if God is truth, the closer I get to truth, the closer I get to God. It took a while, but then I came back and I realized, wow, this is a vibrant thing, this relationship with Jesus. And it's based now on confidence, not on certainty. There's a lot of shifts that happen in my life in that process, but that's kind of the history of how I left the faith.

Yeah, that's so crucial, Preston. So some would say that they are either repelled by Christianity or step back from it sometimes by the people that you and me, sometimes by the ideas for you. It sounds like it was more the ideas. Were people ever a reason for you to step back as well? Because sometimes people, when they devolve their faith, will say the hypocrisy. Well, that's people. That's not ideas, that's people. So is hypocrisy a factor in this?

Yeah, that's so crucial, Preston. So some would say that they are either repelled by Christianity or step back from it sometimes by the people that you and me, sometimes by the ideas for you. It sounds like it was more the ideas. Were people ever a reason for you to step back as well? Because sometimes people, when they devolve their faith, will say the hypocrisy. Well, that's people. That's not ideas, that's people. So is hypocrisy a factor in this?

So for me it started intellectual and then you start to look for more personal reasons. And that's when you get into, oh, wait, well, this doesn't line up. And what that person said doesn't look like how they acted, those sort of things. So I would say it wasn't the initiator for me. It was it was definitely a driving force towards the end. And it took that crucial role of his name is Jeff Magruder of Jeff to step in. And for me to see an authenticity with someone, I mean, that was crucial. But I would say, yeah, I think that for a lot of stories it's reversed. It starts highly personal, and then they start to go, okay, there are intellectual objections I have, but for me it was reversed. Yeah.

So for me it started intellectual and then you start to look for more personal reasons. And that's when you get into, oh, wait, well, this doesn't line up. And what that person said doesn't look like how they acted, those sort of things. So I would say it wasn't the initiator for me. It was it was definitely a driving force towards the end. And it took that crucial role of his name is Jeff Magruder of Jeff to step in. And for me to see an authenticity with someone, I mean, that was crucial. But I would say, yeah, I think that for a lot of stories it's reversed. It starts highly personal, and then they start to go, okay, there are intellectual objections I have, but for me it was reversed. Yeah.

Wow. So let me linger on this point because I think it's huge. And I know God didn't make me in charge of the world, thank goodness, because I couldn't do it at all. But I do angst over this. And you talk about apologetics. So let's go to our brother Clive Lewis. All right. C.S. Lewis, he said this and I quote it all the time. Oh, the air and my friends are going to collectively groan because I'm going to say it for the millionth time. But he said famously, Christians are the best argument for and against Christianity. I love that because it's so personally convicting. It's like, oh my gosh, what am I doing to be in the way? What an incumbent find that when I was a kid growing up in Sunday School, your life might be the only Bible some people will ever read. And I'll tell you what, that's stuck to that little kid's heart. And I still think about it as a grandmother to this day. That, well, what if what if I'm doing something that gets in the way of the gospel message, if I'm a living epistle, if I'm an ambassador for Christ, if they don't see Christ in me, I don't want to be responsible for having somebody turn away. I can't worry about anybody else's witness, but I can certainly worry about my own. This might seem a little bit like a rabbit trail, but I think this is a huge issue. What do we have to? But it factors into our whole dynamic of how we talk to the skeptic and the atheist. I want to start by looking in my own spiritual mirror. If I am that living epistle that they are reading, I'm going to make mistakes. I also am keenly aware of the person looking back at me in the mirror is a sinner, so I'm going to blow it sometimes. So how do I. I don't want to take the license of liberty, you know. Thank you, Brother Paul. To be able to do whatever I want to do and not worry about the fallout. But I don't want to be so uptight and restrictive that I'm so worried about somebody else stumbling that they're never going to come to the foot of the cross. Help me find a healthy balance in how I approach that.

Wow. So let me linger on this point because I think it's huge. And I know God didn't make me in charge of the world, thank goodness, because I couldn't do it at all. But I do angst over this. And you talk about apologetics. So let's go to our brother Clive Lewis. All right. C.S. Lewis, he said this and I quote it all the time. Oh, the air and my friends are going to collectively groan because I'm going to say it for the millionth time. But he said famously, Christians are the best argument for and against Christianity. I love that because it's so personally convicting. It's like, oh my gosh, what am I doing to be in the way? What an incumbent find that when I was a kid growing up in Sunday School, your life might be the only Bible some people will ever read. And I'll tell you what, that's stuck to that little kid's heart. And I still think about it as a grandmother to this day. That, well, what if what if I'm doing something that gets in the way of the gospel message, if I'm a living epistle, if I'm an ambassador for Christ, if they don't see Christ in me, I don't want to be responsible for having somebody turn away. I can't worry about anybody else's witness, but I can certainly worry about my own. This might seem a little bit like a rabbit trail, but I think this is a huge issue. What do we have to? But it factors into our whole dynamic of how we talk to the skeptic and the atheist. I want to start by looking in my own spiritual mirror. If I am that living epistle that they are reading, I'm going to make mistakes. I also am keenly aware of the person looking back at me in the mirror is a sinner, so I'm going to blow it sometimes. So how do I. I don't want to take the license of liberty, you know. Thank you, Brother Paul. To be able to do whatever I want to do and not worry about the fallout. But I don't want to be so uptight and restrictive that I'm so worried about somebody else stumbling that they're never going to come to the foot of the cross. Help me find a healthy balance in how I approach that.

Yeah, I was actually just in Seattle, uh, probably two weeks ago teaching on this. And, uh, and what we found is stats over the last three years from the majority of, um, of any sort of survey when it comes to religious circles, stats are showing us that hypocrisy is the number one reason people are leaving. Now, here's what I'd say. When Christians know their identity in God, they can live more authentic before man. Authenticity is what will change the game, which would boil down to do we know how accepted and loved we are before God. I think that's a question that changes the game.

Yeah, I was actually just in Seattle, uh, probably two weeks ago teaching on this. And, uh, and what we found is stats over the last three years from the majority of, um, of any sort of survey when it comes to religious circles, stats are showing us that hypocrisy is the number one reason people are leaving. Now, here's what I'd say. When Christians know their identity in God, they can live more authentic before man. Authenticity is what will change the game, which would boil down to do we know how accepted and loved we are before God. I think that's a question that changes the game.

Wow, that is huge. Boy, if you don't hear anything else in this conversation with Preston Elmer, I hope you take that away. But we've got more time and so much more to dive into. Preston Elmer, the founder and director of the Doubters Club, also the author of the book that bears the same title, The Doubters Club Good Faith conversations with skeptics, atheists, and the Spiritually Wounded. Back after this.

Wow, that is huge. Boy, if you don't hear anything else in this conversation with Preston Elmer, I hope you take that away. But we've got more time and so much more to dive into. Preston Elmer, the founder and director of the Doubters Club, also the author of the book that bears the same title, The Doubters Club Good Faith conversations with skeptics, atheists, and the Spiritually Wounded. Back after this.

Break.

Break.

The Doubters Club that's the name of the brand new book by Preston Elmer. The subtitle says so much good Faith conversations with skeptics, atheists, and the Spiritually Wounded. By the way, Preston Elmer founded and directs something called the Doubters Club, that is an organization that teaches Christians and atheists to model friendship and pursue truth together. Preston, let me go back because it was so good and I was coming up to a break, and I want to make sure that people heard it because it was very important. You gave stats. You just talked about this in Seattle, Washington. You gave some stats. Number one reason people go. Oh, thanks, but no thanks is the issue of hypocrisy. So you talked about being our authentic self. Say that concluding statement again if you'd be so kind because it's crucial.

The Doubters Club that's the name of the brand new book by Preston Elmer. The subtitle says so much good Faith conversations with skeptics, atheists, and the Spiritually Wounded. By the way, Preston Elmer founded and directs something called the Doubters Club, that is an organization that teaches Christians and atheists to model friendship and pursue truth together. Preston, let me go back because it was so good and I was coming up to a break, and I want to make sure that people heard it because it was very important. You gave stats. You just talked about this in Seattle, Washington. You gave some stats. Number one reason people go. Oh, thanks, but no thanks is the issue of hypocrisy. So you talked about being our authentic self. Say that concluding statement again if you'd be so kind because it's crucial.

Yeah. Well we were talking about what's going to change that stat right. And I would what I said was when we learn how to be our authentic self. So we that goes down to an identity issue. When we know who we are before God, then we could be authentic before man. And that who we are means God accepts us with our doubts, our questions, our imperfections. When all of that starts to be more and more grounded in our soul, then authenticity starts to be more and more visible to the people we live life with. And I think that's when people say, I really do want whatever it is that you're living with. And that's when we talk about Jesus.

Yeah. Well we were talking about what's going to change that stat right. And I would what I said was when we learn how to be our authentic self. So we that goes down to an identity issue. When we know who we are before God, then we could be authentic before man. And that who we are means God accepts us with our doubts, our questions, our imperfections. When all of that starts to be more and more grounded in our soul, then authenticity starts to be more and more visible to the people we live life with. And I think that's when people say, I really do want whatever it is that you're living with. And that's when we talk about Jesus.

Exactly. Boy, that statement again, forgive me for hearkening back, but you're bringing back a lot of basic ideas I learned a long time ago in Sunday School, and that was that idea about living in such a way that it really compels people to say, I don't know what you've got, but I want it. And I think the word authenticity was not so hot back then. But I think what they were conveying was this whole idea of transparency and authenticity, which I think is hugely important. Okay, so let me go down another track, which is extremely important. I started out by giving these troubling statistics about we don't befriend non-believers. Now I'm lucky I'm in Washington DC. I can't turn around without bumping into somebody like that, and I praise God for that. By the way, I see them on a regular basis. I coalesce with them, I debate them on national television. It's okay and it's cool, and it's a mission field, and I praise God for it. But generally we tend to cluster in our own protective circles. Tell me why you think that is and how can we rack, rattle and roll that paradigm? Because if we don't change it, your book is useless and so is the club.

Exactly. Boy, that statement again, forgive me for hearkening back, but you're bringing back a lot of basic ideas I learned a long time ago in Sunday School, and that was that idea about living in such a way that it really compels people to say, I don't know what you've got, but I want it. And I think the word authenticity was not so hot back then. But I think what they were conveying was this whole idea of transparency and authenticity, which I think is hugely important. Okay, so let me go down another track, which is extremely important. I started out by giving these troubling statistics about we don't befriend non-believers. Now I'm lucky I'm in Washington DC. I can't turn around without bumping into somebody like that, and I praise God for that. By the way, I see them on a regular basis. I coalesce with them, I debate them on national television. It's okay and it's cool, and it's a mission field, and I praise God for it. But generally we tend to cluster in our own protective circles. Tell me why you think that is and how can we rack, rattle and roll that paradigm? Because if we don't change it, your book is useless and so is the club.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Well, the club is trying to change that. I think it goes back to, you know, when I was in youth group, there's a saying that a lot of people listening to this would remember. They can even quote it. show me your friends and I'll show you your future. And somehow that mentality taught us if you have people who think, look, or act different than you, you're compromising the future God has for you. When when the reality is our growth, the more we grow towards the heart of God, the more we should grow towards the prodigal. That's where his heart is. So when it comes to living within our Christian bubbles, you know we make it such a priority to go to everything that's within the walls of the church. We make it such a priority to protect ourselves and our ideas, and in doing so, we actually live within us versus them mentality. It becomes more toxic than we think. Yes. And when we read the Jesus story, it's not us versus them. There's not even those categories. If you had to give those categories, it would be for Jesus, us for them every single time. And he brings a group of people together that don't think like one another. I mean, you have Peter the Zealot who's like, you know, I don't think that was his first time cutting off an ear. Okay. The night before the crucifixion. Uh, and then you have Matthew, the tax collector. I think Peter was practicing. You know what? What he's going to do to Matthew when Jesus isn't around. You have this circle of people that aren't like each other. And Jesus goes, this is the kingdom of God. And so we have to get outside of the walls of the church. And I know that that's something people keep saying. But Doubter's club is obviously an effort to get us to do that, but not just to get outside the walls of the church, but to do life with people that are not like us at all.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Well, the club is trying to change that. I think it goes back to, you know, when I was in youth group, there's a saying that a lot of people listening to this would remember. They can even quote it. show me your friends and I'll show you your future. And somehow that mentality taught us if you have people who think, look, or act different than you, you're compromising the future God has for you. When when the reality is our growth, the more we grow towards the heart of God, the more we should grow towards the prodigal. That's where his heart is. So when it comes to living within our Christian bubbles, you know we make it such a priority to go to everything that's within the walls of the church. We make it such a priority to protect ourselves and our ideas, and in doing so, we actually live within us versus them mentality. It becomes more toxic than we think. Yes. And when we read the Jesus story, it's not us versus them. There's not even those categories. If you had to give those categories, it would be for Jesus, us for them every single time. And he brings a group of people together that don't think like one another. I mean, you have Peter the Zealot who's like, you know, I don't think that was his first time cutting off an ear. Okay. The night before the crucifixion. Uh, and then you have Matthew, the tax collector. I think Peter was practicing. You know what? What he's going to do to Matthew when Jesus isn't around. You have this circle of people that aren't like each other. And Jesus goes, this is the kingdom of God. And so we have to get outside of the walls of the church. And I know that that's something people keep saying. But Doubter's club is obviously an effort to get us to do that, but not just to get outside the walls of the church, but to do life with people that are not like us at all.

Yeah. And by the way, for anybody who subscribes to that idea that somehow it's in us and them or it'll rub off on us, or it dilutes or taints our God. Well, I'm sorry, but did we does missions live in a whole nother category then? Because you're going to people who aren't like you to share a message they've never heard before. I mean, this is maybe, maybe part of the problem, Preston, is that we have this arcane idea of what constitutes a mission field. And if it's over there and it's got a foreign name and a foreign address, then somehow its missions. But you fail to see the guy who carpools with you as a mission field.

Yeah. And by the way, for anybody who subscribes to that idea that somehow it's in us and them or it'll rub off on us, or it dilutes or taints our God. Well, I'm sorry, but did we does missions live in a whole nother category then? Because you're going to people who aren't like you to share a message they've never heard before. I mean, this is maybe, maybe part of the problem, Preston, is that we have this arcane idea of what constitutes a mission field. And if it's over there and it's got a foreign name and a foreign address, then somehow its missions. But you fail to see the guy who carpools with you as a mission field.

That's exactly right. And we we think, you know, well, God just can't be around sin, so we can't be around sin. And I'm like, well, he came and lived in the midst of sinners. And by the way, aren't we all right? Aren't we all imperfect? That's not to justify a lifestyle where it is just to say like we we have to do life with people, not like us. Because God did life with us and we're nowhere near him. I mean, this is Philippians, right, that he we didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped. So anyway, I'm right there with you.

That's exactly right. And we we think, you know, well, God just can't be around sin, so we can't be around sin. And I'm like, well, he came and lived in the midst of sinners. And by the way, aren't we all right? Aren't we all imperfect? That's not to justify a lifestyle where it is just to say like we we have to do life with people, not like us. Because God did life with us and we're nowhere near him. I mean, this is Philippians, right, that he we didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped. So anyway, I'm right there with you.

Yeah, boy. But you know what? I take comfort in this. The writer of Ecclesiastes one. Smart guy. Nothing new under the sun. So the Jewish believers don't want anything to do with the Gentile believers, right? And then the Jews don't want anything to do with the Samaritans. So we've been real good at us and them since we walked out of the garden. So this is for the sake of the gospel. We have really got to get over this. Here's the other track on this, and I hear it all the time. I if I engage, okay, I've gotten over the fact that my faith won't be diluted. I know what I believe and why I believe it, but I'm going to start talking to this person and they're going to ask me a question that I don't know and I don't want to be marginalized, rejected, made a fool of, hey, the Washington Post called us poor, uneducated, and easy to command. I don't want to give cannon fodder to that idea. So we retreat because somehow we've misaligned the idea that if they reject something we say, it equates to the rejection of the gospel. Help us tear down that wall.

Yeah, boy. But you know what? I take comfort in this. The writer of Ecclesiastes one. Smart guy. Nothing new under the sun. So the Jewish believers don't want anything to do with the Gentile believers, right? And then the Jews don't want anything to do with the Samaritans. So we've been real good at us and them since we walked out of the garden. So this is for the sake of the gospel. We have really got to get over this. Here's the other track on this, and I hear it all the time. I if I engage, okay, I've gotten over the fact that my faith won't be diluted. I know what I believe and why I believe it, but I'm going to start talking to this person and they're going to ask me a question that I don't know and I don't want to be marginalized, rejected, made a fool of, hey, the Washington Post called us poor, uneducated, and easy to command. I don't want to give cannon fodder to that idea. So we retreat because somehow we've misaligned the idea that if they reject something we say, it equates to the rejection of the gospel. Help us tear down that wall.

Yeah, well, this objection of what if I don't know? The answer is one that I hear all the time when I'm traveling. And here's here's the truth. We don't have all the answers. And people who don't know God do have answers that we don't have. And I'll say this, they have questions that we should be asking. My my response is, what if you searched for the answer with them? You don't need to go get it and then bring it back to them and act like you're in an ivory tower looking down on them. Get the answer with them. Start a friendship around these crucial conversations and explore it together. Closer you get to truth, the closer you get to God.

Yeah, well, this objection of what if I don't know? The answer is one that I hear all the time when I'm traveling. And here's here's the truth. We don't have all the answers. And people who don't know God do have answers that we don't have. And I'll say this, they have questions that we should be asking. My my response is, what if you searched for the answer with them? You don't need to go get it and then bring it back to them and act like you're in an ivory tower looking down on them. Get the answer with them. Start a friendship around these crucial conversations and explore it together. Closer you get to truth, the closer you get to God.

Wow. And you just gave the working definition of a friendship, by the way. Do it together. That's what friends do, right? Well, I just love that. Oh, this guy was going far too quickly. I am so glad you're not listening to this conversation by accident. By the way, maybe God has placed somebody in your life and you're going, man, I'd really love to talk to them, but I don't know how. I don't know where I begin. Then you're not listening by accident. This is a divine appointment. More with Preston Elmer and the Doubters Club right after this. What is in the market mean to you? Is it a trusted source for news? Your go to place for relevant discussions on current events? I'm glad to have you in our listening family, and I want to ask you to take a next step. Will you become a partial partner and help us continue here on your station? When you do, you'll get personal emails and information from me. Become a partial partner today by calling 877 Janet, 58, or go online to. In the market with Janet parshall.org. What a great and timely conversation. Listen, you know if he's also not just Savior but Lord in your life, then you want to be faithful. You want to be obedient and you've got the cure for death. How do you keep that good news to yourself? It is why Peter and John said, we can't stop talking about that which we've heard and seen. It should just pour out of us. And I don't know about you, but I think five minutes, once you've put your feet on the bedroom floor, five minutes by poking your head out of your little tent, boom! The world sends you about 14 gazillion clues that it's hurting. They want to know if God is real, if he loves them, if he can bind their wounds, if he is a God who's good despite circumstances that look to the otherwise. So don't think for one minute, not no matter how clear a declarative statement someone makes. I am an atheist. I am an agnostic. I'm a skeptic. You know, start with the very beginning. God is not willing that any should perish. Okay, just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts. If you don't know Dragnet, you'll have to Google it. But let me move on. So this person does want to know if God is real. Blaise Pascal said it. He said it resides in the heart of every man. A God shaped void. And only a personal relationship with him can fill it. So you start with the presupposition. Regardless of what the person is saying, that they want to know if God is real. So why have they stepped back? Why are they wounded? Why have they decided that the questions are not being answered? I'm not interested in moving into that more concentric circle. Francis Schaeffer talked about that. He talked about pre evangelism starting in the outside of the culture and moving into the center until you find truth, and then you introduce them to the one who is called truth. So there are a lot of doubters out there. And Preston Elmer knows that full well. He had his own dark night of the soul came out of it, not one, but two master's degrees, by the way, decided that after he fell in love with Jesus all over again, that he wanted to fall in love with working for him. So he does. He not only founded and directs the Doubters Club, which is an organization that teaches Christians and atheists to model friendship and pursue truth together. He also serves as the Director of Network Development for the church multiplication network CNN, that happens to be the church planning arm of the Assemblies of God, and before that he was a youth pastor and a young adult pastor and a church planter. And he and his family planted a church in Denver, Colorado. In addition to the work he does with the Doubter's club, which, by the way, happens to be the name of his brand new book, The Doubter's Club Good Faith conversations with skeptics, atheists, and the Spiritually Wounded. All right. So there's so many things that you talk about in your book that even with one irreplaceable hour of your life, Preston, I'm not going to be able to cover it all, but if I get people curious enough to read it, I will have done my job. You offer this intriguing idea because you talked about just before the break, the idea of going on a journey together to discover these answers. You know, there's a kind of a J.R.R. Tolkien aspect to that that came to my mind the minute you were talking about that. So the befriending, the mentoring together, let's why don't we? Why don't we pursue that answer together? And then you become friends with each other, with one another. And Lord willing, it does lead to a conclusion of truth. And then they are introduced, as Schafer said, to the one who is known as truth. But you say, and this is part of it, this is inviting the non-believer into real life, not a church service. Now, there's nothing wrong with inviting a non-believer to church, but that edifice represents the go no go point for the skeptic in so many cases, or the atheist or the agnostic, you know, what you're saying is, well, I'll give you another Sunday school saying, I guess it's old school week for me. I remember growing up hearing, you want to be winsome in your evangelistic style, win someone to you so you can in turn win them to Christ Jesus. I've never forgotten that. So how do I start this real life outside the church relationship? And is there something shadowy about that? Is there something wrong with starting an experience outside the church?

Wow. And you just gave the working definition of a friendship, by the way. Do it together. That's what friends do, right? Well, I just love that. Oh, this guy was going far too quickly. I am so glad you're not listening to this conversation by accident. By the way, maybe God has placed somebody in your life and you're going, man, I'd really love to talk to them, but I don't know how. I don't know where I begin. Then you're not listening by accident. This is a divine appointment. More with Preston Elmer and the Doubters Club right after this. What is in the market mean to you? Is it a trusted source for news? Your go to place for relevant discussions on current events? I'm glad to have you in our listening family, and I want to ask you to take a next step. Will you become a partial partner and help us continue here on your station? When you do, you'll get personal emails and information from me. Become a partial partner today by calling 877 Janet, 58, or go online to. In the market with Janet parshall.org. What a great and timely conversation. Listen, you know if he's also not just Savior but Lord in your life, then you want to be faithful. You want to be obedient and you've got the cure for death. How do you keep that good news to yourself? It is why Peter and John said, we can't stop talking about that which we've heard and seen. It should just pour out of us. And I don't know about you, but I think five minutes, once you've put your feet on the bedroom floor, five minutes by poking your head out of your little tent, boom! The world sends you about 14 gazillion clues that it's hurting. They want to know if God is real, if he loves them, if he can bind their wounds, if he is a God who's good despite circumstances that look to the otherwise. So don't think for one minute, not no matter how clear a declarative statement someone makes. I am an atheist. I am an agnostic. I'm a skeptic. You know, start with the very beginning. God is not willing that any should perish. Okay, just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts. If you don't know Dragnet, you'll have to Google it. But let me move on. So this person does want to know if God is real. Blaise Pascal said it. He said it resides in the heart of every man. A God shaped void. And only a personal relationship with him can fill it. So you start with the presupposition. Regardless of what the person is saying, that they want to know if God is real. So why have they stepped back? Why are they wounded? Why have they decided that the questions are not being answered? I'm not interested in moving into that more concentric circle. Francis Schaeffer talked about that. He talked about pre evangelism starting in the outside of the culture and moving into the center until you find truth, and then you introduce them to the one who is called truth. So there are a lot of doubters out there. And Preston Elmer knows that full well. He had his own dark night of the soul came out of it, not one, but two master's degrees, by the way, decided that after he fell in love with Jesus all over again, that he wanted to fall in love with working for him. So he does. He not only founded and directs the Doubters Club, which is an organization that teaches Christians and atheists to model friendship and pursue truth together. He also serves as the Director of Network Development for the church multiplication network CNN, that happens to be the church planning arm of the Assemblies of God, and before that he was a youth pastor and a young adult pastor and a church planter. And he and his family planted a church in Denver, Colorado. In addition to the work he does with the Doubter's club, which, by the way, happens to be the name of his brand new book, The Doubter's Club Good Faith conversations with skeptics, atheists, and the Spiritually Wounded. All right. So there's so many things that you talk about in your book that even with one irreplaceable hour of your life, Preston, I'm not going to be able to cover it all, but if I get people curious enough to read it, I will have done my job. You offer this intriguing idea because you talked about just before the break, the idea of going on a journey together to discover these answers. You know, there's a kind of a J.R.R. Tolkien aspect to that that came to my mind the minute you were talking about that. So the befriending, the mentoring together, let's why don't we? Why don't we pursue that answer together? And then you become friends with each other, with one another. And Lord willing, it does lead to a conclusion of truth. And then they are introduced, as Schafer said, to the one who is known as truth. But you say, and this is part of it, this is inviting the non-believer into real life, not a church service. Now, there's nothing wrong with inviting a non-believer to church, but that edifice represents the go no go point for the skeptic in so many cases, or the atheist or the agnostic, you know, what you're saying is, well, I'll give you another Sunday school saying, I guess it's old school week for me. I remember growing up hearing, you want to be winsome in your evangelistic style, win someone to you so you can in turn win them to Christ Jesus. I've never forgotten that. So how do I start this real life outside the church relationship? And is there something shadowy about that? Is there something wrong with starting an experience outside the church?

Oh no, there's nothing wrong with it. I, I would say now I always tell people, look, I plant churches for a living. So I love going to church. I love those sort of things. But, uh, whenever it comes to people who are skeptics, atheists, agnostics, all those, if you picture a number line, the Engel scale zero would be salvation positive ten let's say Billy Graham fully surrendered life unto the Lord. James Engel in the 70s said, what about the negative tens? And those are the people that I say. I think those are the ones. Those are the ones that Jesus says, leave the 99 for the negative tens, the ones on the negative side of the scale who want nothing to do with God. So in the book, I lay out this idea that there's five the five eyes of relationship, impression, intention, invitation into real life, not just a church service initiation, initiating conversations that matter, and then imitation. How do you imitate Christ together? So I just say, at whatever point you are with a friend, someone who doesn't think like you, maybe you're rebuilding the impression that they have of you. Maybe you've told your neighbor seven times in the last seven months. We got to get together for a barbecue. Well, it's probably good to apologize and to just be good on your word. Rebuild the impression that they have of you because you want to talk about trust. Like be a trustworthy friend, talking about big concepts, your intention, not having ulterior motives. You know, I think that we are taught we want to befriend people so that they become a Christian. Yes, that's an ulterior motive. We want to befriend people because they have the image of God in them. They deserve the dignity of human friendships, and the detour guides people who are with them through divorces and and anything that just sidelines them. So although I have an ultimate motive, I want everybody to know God. I don't want ulterior motives. So that's the second eye. The third one is what are the natural rhythms of your life? Invite them in on it. The fourth one is ideas on how do you initiate conversations that matter. I tell people all the time, Janet, I say this part feels weird for Christians, but it's actually weird if you do the other eyes. It's weird to just talk about sports and the weather again. You got to start talking about stuff that matters, right? And and the last one is it's not immersion. That would be the positive side of the scale. And we're all for baptism, but it's imitation. Are there missions that you can join together? Because we know living on mission stirs affection. And so whenever I talk about these five eyes, I just say, whichever eye you're at, stay there for a month or two and then move to the next one. Take the pressure of conversion off of you and just be an authentic friend with people on the negative side of the scale. It's a long answer to your question.

Oh no, there's nothing wrong with it. I, I would say now I always tell people, look, I plant churches for a living. So I love going to church. I love those sort of things. But, uh, whenever it comes to people who are skeptics, atheists, agnostics, all those, if you picture a number line, the Engel scale zero would be salvation positive ten let's say Billy Graham fully surrendered life unto the Lord. James Engel in the 70s said, what about the negative tens? And those are the people that I say. I think those are the ones. Those are the ones that Jesus says, leave the 99 for the negative tens, the ones on the negative side of the scale who want nothing to do with God. So in the book, I lay out this idea that there's five the five eyes of relationship, impression, intention, invitation into real life, not just a church service initiation, initiating conversations that matter, and then imitation. How do you imitate Christ together? So I just say, at whatever point you are with a friend, someone who doesn't think like you, maybe you're rebuilding the impression that they have of you. Maybe you've told your neighbor seven times in the last seven months. We got to get together for a barbecue. Well, it's probably good to apologize and to just be good on your word. Rebuild the impression that they have of you because you want to talk about trust. Like be a trustworthy friend, talking about big concepts, your intention, not having ulterior motives. You know, I think that we are taught we want to befriend people so that they become a Christian. Yes, that's an ulterior motive. We want to befriend people because they have the image of God in them. They deserve the dignity of human friendships, and the detour guides people who are with them through divorces and and anything that just sidelines them. So although I have an ultimate motive, I want everybody to know God. I don't want ulterior motives. So that's the second eye. The third one is what are the natural rhythms of your life? Invite them in on it. The fourth one is ideas on how do you initiate conversations that matter. I tell people all the time, Janet, I say this part feels weird for Christians, but it's actually weird if you do the other eyes. It's weird to just talk about sports and the weather again. You got to start talking about stuff that matters, right? And and the last one is it's not immersion. That would be the positive side of the scale. And we're all for baptism, but it's imitation. Are there missions that you can join together? Because we know living on mission stirs affection. And so whenever I talk about these five eyes, I just say, whichever eye you're at, stay there for a month or two and then move to the next one. Take the pressure of conversion off of you and just be an authentic friend with people on the negative side of the scale. It's a long answer to your question.

Oh no. But it's a rich answer. And by the way, you then take multiple chapters of the book, The Doubters Club, and take these five eyes and break them down even more thoroughly, which I think is superb. Well, we've talked a little bit about the impression because we were talking about the hypocrisy issue. Um, so let me go to the intention one and dig a little bit deeper here. How to renovate the intentions you have of the non-believer. I think you touched on this also because this is the us and them kind of category. And if we don't write again, gosh, Preston, I grew up with pastors who would literally weep from the pulpit for the lost. We don't do that anymore. We're pointing fingers. And as you say, we categorize it's us versus them. It's a it's a kind of tribalistic approach to our fellow man rather than and you didn't use the word, but I thought it when you said it. Imago dei I love this person because the image of God resides within that person. And I love to quote this line out of Fiddler on the roof. They're having this great conversation, Lazar Wolf and Tevya. And he says to him, you, I like your ideas. I wouldn't give you a kopeck for, but you I like. And I thought, that's such a perfect example of saying I don't have to agree with what you believe, but am I conveying the idea that I value you as a human being? You know, we have this thing in Washington where you can go get your picture taken on the corner of just about every street with a cutout of the current president. So tourists line up and they've got vendors on the street corner, and there's your Take your picture with the whoever the president is or the first lady. And people love to go home and say, look, I met the president. I met the first lady. That's who we are to a lot of skeptics and atheists. We are the cardboard cutout. If we're not engaging them, how do they even know who we are by how we're characterized on Netflix? No, that's not the PR department for the faith. Right? So how are we going to change the impression if we don't start reaching out? And by the way, Preston, I think we're the ones that have to start the reaching out, not for ulterior motives, but because that was God. That's what God calls us to do.

Oh no. But it's a rich answer. And by the way, you then take multiple chapters of the book, The Doubters Club, and take these five eyes and break them down even more thoroughly, which I think is superb. Well, we've talked a little bit about the impression because we were talking about the hypocrisy issue. Um, so let me go to the intention one and dig a little bit deeper here. How to renovate the intentions you have of the non-believer. I think you touched on this also because this is the us and them kind of category. And if we don't write again, gosh, Preston, I grew up with pastors who would literally weep from the pulpit for the lost. We don't do that anymore. We're pointing fingers. And as you say, we categorize it's us versus them. It's a it's a kind of tribalistic approach to our fellow man rather than and you didn't use the word, but I thought it when you said it. Imago dei I love this person because the image of God resides within that person. And I love to quote this line out of Fiddler on the roof. They're having this great conversation, Lazar Wolf and Tevya. And he says to him, you, I like your ideas. I wouldn't give you a kopeck for, but you I like. And I thought, that's such a perfect example of saying I don't have to agree with what you believe, but am I conveying the idea that I value you as a human being? You know, we have this thing in Washington where you can go get your picture taken on the corner of just about every street with a cutout of the current president. So tourists line up and they've got vendors on the street corner, and there's your Take your picture with the whoever the president is or the first lady. And people love to go home and say, look, I met the president. I met the first lady. That's who we are to a lot of skeptics and atheists. We are the cardboard cutout. If we're not engaging them, how do they even know who we are by how we're characterized on Netflix? No, that's not the PR department for the faith. Right? So how are we going to change the impression if we don't start reaching out? And by the way, Preston, I think we're the ones that have to start the reaching out, not for ulterior motives, but because that was God. That's what God calls us to do.

Yeah. That's so good. And and that's what, you know, the clubs themselves are actually gatherings. They're gatherings where you have two co-moderators, one's a Christian, one's a not not non-Christian. And they're they're modeling friendship over the topic that the club voted on at the time before. And there's a bunch of theological misfits, you know, 15 to 20 is an ideal group. And they don't meet in churches. They meet in coffee shops or microbreweries or wherever. There's going to be a natural gathering place. And they sit and they talk and they model friendship. They laugh together, and then they ask challenging questions. Because here's the here's the goal. We want to better understand you. And there's a cognitive mirroring effect. When I say I want to understand you, what's happening is I move from the resistor part of their brain forward. And so they're thinking, okay, I want to better understand you as well. So in the doubters club settings, although we talk about really deep issues, the goal is build trust. Build trust with one another. Because when I build trust with them and I understand them, believe it or not, I'm going to pray for them more. I'm going to I'm actually going to think about them more. I'm going to serve them more. And my life becomes more like Jesus when I intentionally try to understand the people who don't know him. And so in Doubter's club gatherings, a lot of times we get challenged of our intentions. They go, okay, what's the motive here? Do you want to convert everybody? And I say, no, the vision is I want to model friendship and pursue truth with you. And I try to tell them if I'm wrong, I would want to know it. And we live in a place that says I'm right, I'm right, I'm right, and everyone in the Doubters Club. The irony is they all think they're right.

Yeah. That's so good. And and that's what, you know, the clubs themselves are actually gatherings. They're gatherings where you have two co-moderators, one's a Christian, one's a not not non-Christian. And they're they're modeling friendship over the topic that the club voted on at the time before. And there's a bunch of theological misfits, you know, 15 to 20 is an ideal group. And they don't meet in churches. They meet in coffee shops or microbreweries or wherever. There's going to be a natural gathering place. And they sit and they talk and they model friendship. They laugh together, and then they ask challenging questions. Because here's the here's the goal. We want to better understand you. And there's a cognitive mirroring effect. When I say I want to understand you, what's happening is I move from the resistor part of their brain forward. And so they're thinking, okay, I want to better understand you as well. So in the doubters club settings, although we talk about really deep issues, the goal is build trust. Build trust with one another. Because when I build trust with them and I understand them, believe it or not, I'm going to pray for them more. I'm going to I'm actually going to think about them more. I'm going to serve them more. And my life becomes more like Jesus when I intentionally try to understand the people who don't know him. And so in Doubter's club gatherings, a lot of times we get challenged of our intentions. They go, okay, what's the motive here? Do you want to convert everybody? And I say, no, the vision is I want to model friendship and pursue truth with you. And I try to tell them if I'm wrong, I would want to know it. And we live in a place that says I'm right, I'm right, I'm right, and everyone in the Doubters Club. The irony is they all think they're right.

Right, exactly.

Right, exactly.

But if we get to a place where we say, okay, what is the truth and how do we find it on this specific question? So of all the doubters, clubs that have launched around the world, that's the goal. And when you talk about the ulterior motives, we have to constantly keep clarifying. Hey, this group is not a church. We're trying to accomplish something entirely different here.

But if we get to a place where we say, okay, what is the truth and how do we find it on this specific question? So of all the doubters, clubs that have launched around the world, that's the goal. And when you talk about the ulterior motives, we have to constantly keep clarifying. Hey, this group is not a church. We're trying to accomplish something entirely different here.

Wow, Preston, I have two important questions to ask you. And I don't want to ask because I'm coming up to a break. So let me take a break and come right back. But I want to go to what you just said before because I want to make sure people listening don't misconstrue what you just said, which is the idea of doubts, because there are going to be people saying, wait a minute, I'm standing on the Word of God. You know, I've read it through, I believe it to the Bible. And so I'm not going to have any doubts. It says it, I believe it. There is no room for a doubt. Let me talk to you about how you contextualize that within the conversation of, quote, a doubter's club. And then I want to ask you a really dicey question about not the skeptic, the cynic, the seeker, the atheist, but the other believers who know that you have befriended a skeptic, a seeker, an agnostic, an atheist, and they begin to vilify you for some of the reasons we talked about earlier. So let me get your take on both of those when we come back. Preston Elmer is with us. His brand new book is called The Doubters Club good Faith conversations with skeptics, atheists, and the Spiritually Wounded. Much more right after this. We're visiting with Preston Elmer, the founder and director of the Doubters Club that puts Christians and atheists together, helps them to model friendship with one another and pursue truth together. He's also a church planter, by the way, and he's got a brand new book that hearkens right back to what he founded. It's called The Doubters Club, and it's a marvelous book to help you. And I learn how to have good faith conversations with skeptics, atheists, and the spiritually wounded. So, Preston, you know, for some people this is dangerous new territory. And I don't want him to turn off when they hear something that's new and sounds threatening to them. So let me go back to what you just said about doubts. Hey, we're all going to have doubts. No, I'm not going to have doubts. I'm talking to an atheist who's seeking. I'm a born again, spirit filled Christian. I believe the word of God. There are no doubts there. So talk to me about that, because there's truth in that. Well, when you say we all have doubts, I can have some pretty good hermeneutics. I'm doing excellent exegesis. And what does that mean about having doubts in this conversation with my atheist friend?