Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast of In the Market with Janet Parshall, and I sincerely hope you hear something that will encourage you, edify you, enlighten you, equip you, and then we'll get you out the door into the marketplace of ideas. But before you go, let me tell you a little bit about this month's truth tool. It's written by a man who was a chronic doubter. Doctor Bobby Conway was a Christian, and after years, he began doubting his own faith. As a result of that, he's come out now stronger, fully committed to the validity and the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, but keenly aware of the kinds of questions that chronic doubters ask. So in his book, Does Christianity Still Make sense? Doctor Conway does a superb job of telling us how we can answer 20 of the most difficult questions you and I will ever be asked about Christianity. Questions like why are there so many scandals in the church? And aren't Christians just a bunch of hypocrites? And why does God allow evil in the world? Is there really reliable evidence for the existence of God? This is a must read for everyone who wants to know how to contend for the faith when they get out there in the marketplace of ideas. This is this month's truth tool, and it's my way of saying thank you. When you give a gift of any amount to in the market with Janet Parshall, just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 and ask for your copy of Does Christianity Still Make sense? And I'll gladly send it off to you as my way of saying thank you for financially supporting this program. You can also give online just go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover of the book. Click on Make Your Donation online and likewise you'll also get a copy of Does Christianity Still make Sense? While you're there, consider becoming a partial partner. Those are my group of friends who give every single month at a level of their own choosing. They always get the truth tool of the month every month, as long as they're a partial partner. And they will also get a weekly newsletter. For me, that includes some of my writing and an audio piece just for my partial partners. So pray about it. Consider a one time gift or an ongoing contributor to the program by becoming a partial partner. 877. Janet 58. That's 877. Janet 58. Or online at In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thanks so much. And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi, friends. This is Janet Parshall, and I want to welcome you to the best of in the market. Today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. But I do hope you'll enjoy today's edition of The Best of In the Market with Janet Parshall.

Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast of In the Market with Janet Parshall, and I sincerely hope you hear something that will encourage you, edify you, enlighten you, equip you, and then we'll get you out the door into the marketplace of ideas. But before you go, let me tell you a little bit about this month's truth tool. It's written by a man who was a chronic doubter. Doctor Bobby Conway was a Christian, and after years, he began doubting his own faith. As a result of that, he's come out now stronger, fully committed to the validity and the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, but keenly aware of the kinds of questions that chronic doubters ask. So in his book, Does Christianity Still Make sense? Doctor Conway does a superb job of telling us how we can answer 20 of the most difficult questions you and I will ever be asked about Christianity. Questions like why are there so many scandals in the church? And aren't Christians just a bunch of hypocrites? And why does God allow evil in the world? Is there really reliable evidence for the existence of God? This is a must read for everyone who wants to know how to contend for the faith when they get out there in the marketplace of ideas. This is this month's truth tool, and it's my way of saying thank you. When you give a gift of any amount to in the market with Janet Parshall, just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 and ask for your copy of Does Christianity Still Make sense? And I'll gladly send it off to you as my way of saying thank you for financially supporting this program. You can also give online just go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover of the book. Click on Make Your Donation online and likewise you'll also get a copy of Does Christianity Still make Sense? While you're there, consider becoming a partial partner. Those are my group of friends who give every single month at a level of their own choosing. They always get the truth tool of the month every month, as long as they're a partial partner. And they will also get a weekly newsletter. For me, that includes some of my writing and an audio piece just for my partial partners. So pray about it. Consider a one time gift or an ongoing contributor to the program by becoming a partial partner. 877. Janet 58. That's 877. Janet 58. Or online at In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thanks so much. And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi, friends. This is Janet Parshall, and I want to welcome you to the best of in the market. Today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. But I do hope you'll enjoy today's edition of The Best of In the Market with Janet Parshall.

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

Americans worshiping government over God.

Americans worshiping government over God.

Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.

Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.

The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.

The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.

Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you so much for joining me this hour. Boy, I have to tell you, in all honesty, I have so been waiting for this conversation. You know, very often on Fridays when Craig joins me, we will play what we call Wolf Audio, right? That's because Matthew reminds us that there are those who appear as though they're shepherds, but they're really ravenous wolves. And in these latter days, we're seeing a rise in ravenous wolves, which is sloppy doctrine if it's doctrinal at all. I would say so often it just segues into outright apostasy or heresy. And the only way you and I will learn the distinctive is by being totally immersed in the Word of God, and in so doing, you become a good Berean. And the Bereans, remember, were told to test all things. And so I'm finding it really becoming more and more crucial that we do a lot of testing around here, because there's some really sloppy stuff theologically that's being bought and sold in the marketplace of ideas. I get all the other stuff, the preponderance of all the bizarre ideas out there, but then that's reflective of a sin sick culture without Jesus, right? That that muck, that mire, that mess. That's where we're supposed to go. But the world is doing exactly what the world does without Jesus. I'm far more concerned when the church, or at least it purports to be the church, and those who are dressed in the robes of religiosity make declarations that are presumptive, of being truthful because they're standing in front of a pulpit and they've got on the garments. And that's why there will be. It says in the word a great falling away, and that's why even the righteous are going to be deceived. I told you before, I'll tell it to you again. When I was a child growing up in Sunday school, I cannot tell you how that verse bothered me. I thought, how in the world does somebody who has the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ become deceived? Well, the older I got, the more I see how that's possible. And then immediately I swing the opposite direction. And I praise God for bedrock, solid Bible teachers who keep us on the straight and the narrow. This is the way. Walk ye in it. You don't add anything or take away anything from the Word of God and we know what we believe. Thank you, Doctor Paul Little. But also why we believe it. And that's exactly the kind of conversation we're going to have this hour. Here's a big, fat, heavy theological term because in truth, it describes the profundity of what Jesus Christ did for us in the cross. It's called penal substitutionary atonement. Now, that sounds hefty. I bet you never said that to anybody within the last month, right? But it really is the idea that Christ, voluntarily submitting to God the Father, takes on the wages of our sin. He is penalized, punished, if you will, by taking on the sins in our place. There's the substitutionary. It should be you and me. How do I know that? Because the wages of sin is death, and by man came death. And if you and I were standing before a judge, the sign around our neck would say. Guilty as charged. And the punishment is death. But Jesus steps in and he pays the price for us. The substitution. It's why he's called the unblemished Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. So he takes on the sins. There's the Is the penalizing. He's the substitution for you and me. And the atonement means without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. The Bible tells us that. So you've got this whole thing through the Old Testament of sacrificing animals, that Passover, when the lamb's blood had to be put around the molding of the door. Why was that? Because God was telling us and telling us and telling us again. So you can't say you ain't been told that there would be the time when animal sacrifice would be part of the past, and there would be, once and for all, the ultimate sacrifice that would never have to be repeated, because Christ would become that sacrifice for you and me. And in so doing there would be an atonement for our sins. Now, Doctor Sam Storms is going to explain this a whole lot better to us because he's written an entire book called 12 Things That God Has Done With Your Sin. I want to make sure I have that right because I don't want to make, yes, a dozen things. Thank you. Not 12. A dozen things God did with your sin and three that he'll never do. And he also wrote a wonderful piece at Sam Storms. And you know that it's like walking into the Library of Congress there. He's just got a plethora of pieces. But he wrote a piece called Ten Things You Should Know About Penal Substitution. And that's going to be our conversation this hour. Now, before I bring Sam into the discussion and of course, you know and love him. He is the founder of Enjoying God Ministries more than four decades in ministry as a pastor and a professor. He was a visiting associate Prof. Of theology at Wheaton College. He has written all kinds of books. He blogs regularly and I'm so very, very grateful every time he comes to visit. But let me tell you what, with the quickening in my heart, it was hearing again, you know, you put anything on X and I'm sorry. It's fair game. It is quintessentially the marketplace of ideas. So here is a pastor who decided that he'd talk about penal substitutionary atonement. Now, either he's right or the words right. Bereans put on your thinking caps. Listen to this.

Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you so much for joining me this hour. Boy, I have to tell you, in all honesty, I have so been waiting for this conversation. You know, very often on Fridays when Craig joins me, we will play what we call Wolf Audio, right? That's because Matthew reminds us that there are those who appear as though they're shepherds, but they're really ravenous wolves. And in these latter days, we're seeing a rise in ravenous wolves, which is sloppy doctrine if it's doctrinal at all. I would say so often it just segues into outright apostasy or heresy. And the only way you and I will learn the distinctive is by being totally immersed in the Word of God, and in so doing, you become a good Berean. And the Bereans, remember, were told to test all things. And so I'm finding it really becoming more and more crucial that we do a lot of testing around here, because there's some really sloppy stuff theologically that's being bought and sold in the marketplace of ideas. I get all the other stuff, the preponderance of all the bizarre ideas out there, but then that's reflective of a sin sick culture without Jesus, right? That that muck, that mire, that mess. That's where we're supposed to go. But the world is doing exactly what the world does without Jesus. I'm far more concerned when the church, or at least it purports to be the church, and those who are dressed in the robes of religiosity make declarations that are presumptive, of being truthful because they're standing in front of a pulpit and they've got on the garments. And that's why there will be. It says in the word a great falling away, and that's why even the righteous are going to be deceived. I told you before, I'll tell it to you again. When I was a child growing up in Sunday school, I cannot tell you how that verse bothered me. I thought, how in the world does somebody who has the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ become deceived? Well, the older I got, the more I see how that's possible. And then immediately I swing the opposite direction. And I praise God for bedrock, solid Bible teachers who keep us on the straight and the narrow. This is the way. Walk ye in it. You don't add anything or take away anything from the Word of God and we know what we believe. Thank you, Doctor Paul Little. But also why we believe it. And that's exactly the kind of conversation we're going to have this hour. Here's a big, fat, heavy theological term because in truth, it describes the profundity of what Jesus Christ did for us in the cross. It's called penal substitutionary atonement. Now, that sounds hefty. I bet you never said that to anybody within the last month, right? But it really is the idea that Christ, voluntarily submitting to God the Father, takes on the wages of our sin. He is penalized, punished, if you will, by taking on the sins in our place. There's the substitutionary. It should be you and me. How do I know that? Because the wages of sin is death, and by man came death. And if you and I were standing before a judge, the sign around our neck would say. Guilty as charged. And the punishment is death. But Jesus steps in and he pays the price for us. The substitution. It's why he's called the unblemished Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. So he takes on the sins. There's the Is the penalizing. He's the substitution for you and me. And the atonement means without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. The Bible tells us that. So you've got this whole thing through the Old Testament of sacrificing animals, that Passover, when the lamb's blood had to be put around the molding of the door. Why was that? Because God was telling us and telling us and telling us again. So you can't say you ain't been told that there would be the time when animal sacrifice would be part of the past, and there would be, once and for all, the ultimate sacrifice that would never have to be repeated, because Christ would become that sacrifice for you and me. And in so doing there would be an atonement for our sins. Now, Doctor Sam Storms is going to explain this a whole lot better to us because he's written an entire book called 12 Things That God Has Done With Your Sin. I want to make sure I have that right because I don't want to make, yes, a dozen things. Thank you. Not 12. A dozen things God did with your sin and three that he'll never do. And he also wrote a wonderful piece at Sam Storms. And you know that it's like walking into the Library of Congress there. He's just got a plethora of pieces. But he wrote a piece called Ten Things You Should Know About Penal Substitution. And that's going to be our conversation this hour. Now, before I bring Sam into the discussion and of course, you know and love him. He is the founder of Enjoying God Ministries more than four decades in ministry as a pastor and a professor. He was a visiting associate Prof. Of theology at Wheaton College. He has written all kinds of books. He blogs regularly and I'm so very, very grateful every time he comes to visit. But let me tell you what, with the quickening in my heart, it was hearing again, you know, you put anything on X and I'm sorry. It's fair game. It is quintessentially the marketplace of ideas. So here is a pastor who decided that he'd talk about penal substitutionary atonement. Now, either he's right or the words right. Bereans put on your thinking caps. Listen to this.

One of the questions submitted was why did Jesus have to die? Which is a great question, and it's one that theologians have wrestled with since the beginning of Christianity. We call it the atonement or atonement, right? How are we made at one with God? And there are a lot of different ideas about the atonement. A lot of different atonement theories, if you will. And some of the most popular ones exist in evangelical Christianity. And it is all about satisfying the need God has for humanity to be made right or righteous. Um, so it's a lot of blood sacrifice, language like, um, penal substitutionary atonement. Uh, right. Is this idea that, um, we, uh, we essentially are, uh, so depraved, so sinful that we, um, are not able to make up the debt. And so, uh, Jesus, uh, takes our place and, uh, and dies for our sins, right? And and this sort of way of thinking about Jesus's death is, I think, fundamentally flawed because it is all about a transactional God. So when we ask the question in a Wesleyan perspective, or especially in a church like ours, why did Jesus have to die? I like to help frame the question more broadly. And it wasn't that Jesus had to die. Uh, it was that Jesus faithfully lived and brought about the kingdom of God in such a full way that, um, Jesus's ultimate outcome was death because the world rejected, um, God's perfect love made real in the world. And so that's the best way to think about it, is that Jesus's death is really Jesus being faithful, uh, to, uh, to the love of God and making that real and tangible, uh, in, in, um, in the world. Two sentence answer why did Jesus die? Because Jesus embodied perfect love in the world, and the world doesn't know what to do with perfect love. And, uh, we often try to excommunicate, kill, squash those things that, uh, challenge us or make us uncomfortable or call us to live differently.

One of the questions submitted was why did Jesus have to die? Which is a great question, and it's one that theologians have wrestled with since the beginning of Christianity. We call it the atonement or atonement, right? How are we made at one with God? And there are a lot of different ideas about the atonement. A lot of different atonement theories, if you will. And some of the most popular ones exist in evangelical Christianity. And it is all about satisfying the need God has for humanity to be made right or righteous. Um, so it's a lot of blood sacrifice, language like, um, penal substitutionary atonement. Uh, right. Is this idea that, um, we, uh, we essentially are, uh, so depraved, so sinful that we, um, are not able to make up the debt. And so, uh, Jesus, uh, takes our place and, uh, and dies for our sins, right? And and this sort of way of thinking about Jesus's death is, I think, fundamentally flawed because it is all about a transactional God. So when we ask the question in a Wesleyan perspective, or especially in a church like ours, why did Jesus have to die? I like to help frame the question more broadly. And it wasn't that Jesus had to die. Uh, it was that Jesus faithfully lived and brought about the kingdom of God in such a full way that, um, Jesus's ultimate outcome was death because the world rejected, um, God's perfect love made real in the world. And so that's the best way to think about it, is that Jesus's death is really Jesus being faithful, uh, to, uh, to the love of God and making that real and tangible, uh, in, in, um, in the world. Two sentence answer why did Jesus die? Because Jesus embodied perfect love in the world, and the world doesn't know what to do with perfect love. And, uh, we often try to excommunicate, kill, squash those things that, uh, challenge us or make us uncomfortable or call us to live differently.

And we'll take a break and bring doctor. Sam storms into this conversation. Something to think about back after this. Sometimes people question Christianity when they see leaders fall in hypocrisy, overshadowing authentic Christian living. That's why I've chosen does Christianity still make sense? As this month's truth tool explore 20 common challenges to Christianity brought by those skeptical of biblical truth. As for your copy of Does Christianity still make sense when you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. All right, fella, Bereans, you're still with me. Penal substitutionary atonement. And you just heard that gentleman who is a pastor post his thoughts out there for the world to see, and is he right or is he not right? Doctor Sam Storms is now going to break this apart. And remember, we've got a wonderful book. Does that come as any surprise that Doctor Storms has written on this called A Dozen Things God Did with Your Sin and three Things He'll Never Do. So, Sam, the warmest of welcomes. And let me just start with the last thing he said. And then we're going to work back, because there's just a boatload of delicious, rich theology in this I can't wait to get into. So he said, so why did Jesus have to die? And this is what he said, because Jesus embodied perfect love, and the world didn't know what to do with that perfect love. Well, to use an old fashioned term, I am gobsmacked because if that were the case, it is totally and completely on immortals level. Just man's cause and effect, period. What then do you do with a 300 plus messianic prophecies that were fulfilled, written about in the Old Testament that deal with the birth, death, and resurrection? It's not like Jesus's death should catch anybody by surprise. We were for told. So talk to me about that.

And we'll take a break and bring doctor. Sam storms into this conversation. Something to think about back after this. Sometimes people question Christianity when they see leaders fall in hypocrisy, overshadowing authentic Christian living. That's why I've chosen does Christianity still make sense? As this month's truth tool explore 20 common challenges to Christianity brought by those skeptical of biblical truth. As for your copy of Does Christianity still make sense when you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. All right, fella, Bereans, you're still with me. Penal substitutionary atonement. And you just heard that gentleman who is a pastor post his thoughts out there for the world to see, and is he right or is he not right? Doctor Sam Storms is now going to break this apart. And remember, we've got a wonderful book. Does that come as any surprise that Doctor Storms has written on this called A Dozen Things God Did with Your Sin and three Things He'll Never Do. So, Sam, the warmest of welcomes. And let me just start with the last thing he said. And then we're going to work back, because there's just a boatload of delicious, rich theology in this I can't wait to get into. So he said, so why did Jesus have to die? And this is what he said, because Jesus embodied perfect love, and the world didn't know what to do with that perfect love. Well, to use an old fashioned term, I am gobsmacked because if that were the case, it is totally and completely on immortals level. Just man's cause and effect, period. What then do you do with a 300 plus messianic prophecies that were fulfilled, written about in the Old Testament that deal with the birth, death, and resurrection? It's not like Jesus's death should catch anybody by surprise. We were for told. So talk to me about that.

Yes, the first thing I would say is it's really sad that a man who holds those kinds of views would be in any kind of pastoral ministry, because he's not providing any kind of counsel or advice to his people, much less to the non-Christian world that provides any hope whatsoever. Now, um, one of the problems here is that we are provided with what I would call an either or option. Either Jesus was entirely devoted to demonstrating the love of God, or he was demonstrating the wrath and the holiness of God and the justice of God, when in fact it's a both and. In fact, God's love is precisely manifested in the way that Jesus voluntarily offered himself to endure the justice and the condemnation that our sin deserves. So we can't sever God's love and God's holiness, God's justice, and God's mercy. They are twins. They're two sides of the same coin. That's the first thing that I would say. I would also say, you know, in light of what this man just said, what possible hope would that give to a lost and dying world? To acknowledge that the reason Jesus died isn't because the justice of God, the holiness of God, required that if we were to be set free, but simply because he wanted to show us how loving he was. How does that save me? I mean, my the greatest threat to mankind is the justice of God provoked by our sin. How does that perspective and that mindset of on Jesus do anything to do away with that which threatens me with eternal damnation, namely the guilt of my sin. I don't see the logic or the biblical foundation for anything that he was saying. So really, what has happened, Janet, is that we've had a we've seen a significant shift in the way that, uh, I don't even want to say the Christian world, the the professing Christian world views the nature of God. Um, increasingly, people have become uncomfortable with the idea of a holy God, a just God, a God of incomparable perfection. Um, they just simply want to think of God as loving and kind and merciful and compassionate. Of course, he is all that fake. Praise God that he is that. But he's also a holy God who takes seriously the willful violation of the people he has created to the law that he has set forth. So this idea that somehow we can't embrace a God who actually gets angry at sin. Honestly, Janet, if if the God that I worship didn't get angry at sin, I wouldn't worship him. If he can look upon the injustice of this world, the horrific abuse, the genocide of Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot, the abuse of innocent children and he doesn't get angry and require punishment. I don't want anything to do with him. Now, that's not the only thing true about God. The great news is that it is precisely because he is loving that he says, I'm going to make provision for that. I'm going to. My son is willingly and lovingly, voluntarily going to take upon himself the punishment and the condemnation that those sins warranted and deserved, so that the people who will trust him and cling to him and run to him in faith can be set free and enter into my eternal fellowship forever. So again, it's a both and not an either or. But we've gotten to this mindset that basically says we cannot embrace a God who is angry at sin, a God who has wrath. Um, once again, I can't imagine that if my God does not have wrath against the horrific, sinful, idolatrous, um, perversions of mankind, I don't think he would be worth worshiping. I mean, that's that's a Santa clause. Uh, that's not the God of the Bible. And let me just say this as well. One of the reasons why this has happened is because many of these so-called theologians and pastors have decided to reject the Old Testament. Now, that was an ancient heresy. A man by the name of Marcion in the second century advocated that the God of the Old Testament is not the god that we read about in the New Testament, so he basically rejected it. And their point is, what we have in the Old Testament is what they call the textual God, textual, textual. In other words, that's the God that was written about. But that's not the true God, the true God we see in Jesus in the New Testament. But what we have in the Old Testament is simply the textual history of a barbaric people, Israel, who lived in a time when it was just basically man eat, man, dog eat dog for survival. And their perspective on God was warped and was unworthy of the God we read about in the New Testament. And we need to do away with that textual God of the Old Testament all it tells us, all that it tells us, is what Israel believed about God. It doesn't tell us what the true God is really like. Well, the immediate problem with that is Jesus repeatedly affirmed in his teaching in the New Testament that the God of the Old Testament was the father who had sent him to be the sacrifice for sin. So you've got a problem with Jesus's integrity. If these people are right.

Yes, the first thing I would say is it's really sad that a man who holds those kinds of views would be in any kind of pastoral ministry, because he's not providing any kind of counsel or advice to his people, much less to the non-Christian world that provides any hope whatsoever. Now, um, one of the problems here is that we are provided with what I would call an either or option. Either Jesus was entirely devoted to demonstrating the love of God, or he was demonstrating the wrath and the holiness of God and the justice of God, when in fact it's a both and. In fact, God's love is precisely manifested in the way that Jesus voluntarily offered himself to endure the justice and the condemnation that our sin deserves. So we can't sever God's love and God's holiness, God's justice, and God's mercy. They are twins. They're two sides of the same coin. That's the first thing that I would say. I would also say, you know, in light of what this man just said, what possible hope would that give to a lost and dying world? To acknowledge that the reason Jesus died isn't because the justice of God, the holiness of God, required that if we were to be set free, but simply because he wanted to show us how loving he was. How does that save me? I mean, my the greatest threat to mankind is the justice of God provoked by our sin. How does that perspective and that mindset of on Jesus do anything to do away with that which threatens me with eternal damnation, namely the guilt of my sin. I don't see the logic or the biblical foundation for anything that he was saying. So really, what has happened, Janet, is that we've had a we've seen a significant shift in the way that, uh, I don't even want to say the Christian world, the the professing Christian world views the nature of God. Um, increasingly, people have become uncomfortable with the idea of a holy God, a just God, a God of incomparable perfection. Um, they just simply want to think of God as loving and kind and merciful and compassionate. Of course, he is all that fake. Praise God that he is that. But he's also a holy God who takes seriously the willful violation of the people he has created to the law that he has set forth. So this idea that somehow we can't embrace a God who actually gets angry at sin. Honestly, Janet, if if the God that I worship didn't get angry at sin, I wouldn't worship him. If he can look upon the injustice of this world, the horrific abuse, the genocide of Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot, the abuse of innocent children and he doesn't get angry and require punishment. I don't want anything to do with him. Now, that's not the only thing true about God. The great news is that it is precisely because he is loving that he says, I'm going to make provision for that. I'm going to. My son is willingly and lovingly, voluntarily going to take upon himself the punishment and the condemnation that those sins warranted and deserved, so that the people who will trust him and cling to him and run to him in faith can be set free and enter into my eternal fellowship forever. So again, it's a both and not an either or. But we've gotten to this mindset that basically says we cannot embrace a God who is angry at sin, a God who has wrath. Um, once again, I can't imagine that if my God does not have wrath against the horrific, sinful, idolatrous, um, perversions of mankind, I don't think he would be worth worshiping. I mean, that's that's a Santa clause. Uh, that's not the God of the Bible. And let me just say this as well. One of the reasons why this has happened is because many of these so-called theologians and pastors have decided to reject the Old Testament. Now, that was an ancient heresy. A man by the name of Marcion in the second century advocated that the God of the Old Testament is not the god that we read about in the New Testament, so he basically rejected it. And their point is, what we have in the Old Testament is what they call the textual God, textual, textual. In other words, that's the God that was written about. But that's not the true God, the true God we see in Jesus in the New Testament. But what we have in the Old Testament is simply the textual history of a barbaric people, Israel, who lived in a time when it was just basically man eat, man, dog eat dog for survival. And their perspective on God was warped and was unworthy of the God we read about in the New Testament. And we need to do away with that textual God of the Old Testament all it tells us, all that it tells us, is what Israel believed about God. It doesn't tell us what the true God is really like. Well, the immediate problem with that is Jesus repeatedly affirmed in his teaching in the New Testament that the God of the Old Testament was the father who had sent him to be the sacrifice for sin. So you've got a problem with Jesus's integrity. If these people are right.

Now, you know why I said theologically rich? Now we're just getting into this. Don't forget, there is a book that Doctor Storms has written that will let you go into this even deeper. And I really and truly, if you don't have it, I want you to read it. It's called A Dozen Things God Did with Your Sin and three things He'll Never do more with. Doctor Sam Storms as we dig into this very this is not a minor, by the way. This is a theologically major. So keep those thinking caps on penal substitutionary atonement. Always, always a pleasure to spend time with. Doctor Sam storm's been in ministry for over four decades. Pastor and professor he has founded now serves as executive director for the Convergence Church Network and is a marvelous and prolific thank you, Lord writer. He's written the book A Dozen Things God Did with Your Sin and Three Things He'll Never Do. Doctor storms picked up on the fact that there was this splintering away of this very major theological point of penal substitutionary atonement. Sam, let me pick up on some of the things that you just said before. So when we talk about this inexorable connection, you cannot pick and choose the parts of God you like. It's the it's a mortal's attempt to minimize God and to make him more manageable. We need a higher view of God and a deeper view of Scripture. And we seem to be moving exactly the opposite direction. So you cannot splinter out God from Jesus any more than you can splinter out the Holy Spirit from Jesus. But if you go to second Corinthians 521, God made him Jesus, who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. This was no mistake. This was a purposeful plan designed from before time began, when God, in his sovereignty, knew that man would rebel and separate himself through that rebellion. By sin, there would be this chasm that could only be bridged by the sacrificial act on the cross of Jesus Christ. This idea that it was transactional, there was something else that this pastor said. So let me pick up on that. People who believe in that think that that salvation, some somehow just becomes a transactional event, a kind of legal barter, if you will, made by Jesus for us. Not a transformational redemption. And it largely ignores the resurrection. They would posit. What's wrong with that thinking?

Now, you know why I said theologically rich? Now we're just getting into this. Don't forget, there is a book that Doctor Storms has written that will let you go into this even deeper. And I really and truly, if you don't have it, I want you to read it. It's called A Dozen Things God Did with Your Sin and three things He'll Never do more with. Doctor Sam Storms as we dig into this very this is not a minor, by the way. This is a theologically major. So keep those thinking caps on penal substitutionary atonement. Always, always a pleasure to spend time with. Doctor Sam storm's been in ministry for over four decades. Pastor and professor he has founded now serves as executive director for the Convergence Church Network and is a marvelous and prolific thank you, Lord writer. He's written the book A Dozen Things God Did with Your Sin and Three Things He'll Never Do. Doctor storms picked up on the fact that there was this splintering away of this very major theological point of penal substitutionary atonement. Sam, let me pick up on some of the things that you just said before. So when we talk about this inexorable connection, you cannot pick and choose the parts of God you like. It's the it's a mortal's attempt to minimize God and to make him more manageable. We need a higher view of God and a deeper view of Scripture. And we seem to be moving exactly the opposite direction. So you cannot splinter out God from Jesus any more than you can splinter out the Holy Spirit from Jesus. But if you go to second Corinthians 521, God made him Jesus, who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. This was no mistake. This was a purposeful plan designed from before time began, when God, in his sovereignty, knew that man would rebel and separate himself through that rebellion. By sin, there would be this chasm that could only be bridged by the sacrificial act on the cross of Jesus Christ. This idea that it was transactional, there was something else that this pastor said. So let me pick up on that. People who believe in that think that that salvation, some somehow just becomes a transactional event, a kind of legal barter, if you will, made by Jesus for us. Not a transformational redemption. And it largely ignores the resurrection. They would posit. What's wrong with that thinking?

Well, the word transactional, obviously, is very pejorative because, as you already indicated, it suggests this idea of, well, uh, God did this. Jesus did this in exchange for God doing that. And it was kind of a compassionless, uh, legal, uh, interaction between the two. And that's meant to denigrate the reality of what happened, when in fact, um, the scriptures are so clear in This is love not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. And of course, Jesus himself said in John ten, no one takes my life from me. I lay it down and take it back. I have authority to lay it down or not. So our Lord's death was not transactional. If there was a transaction. I hate that word, Janet. I'll just be honest.

Well, the word transactional, obviously, is very pejorative because, as you already indicated, it suggests this idea of, well, uh, God did this. Jesus did this in exchange for God doing that. And it was kind of a compassionless, uh, legal, uh, interaction between the two. And that's meant to denigrate the reality of what happened, when in fact, um, the scriptures are so clear in This is love not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. And of course, Jesus himself said in John ten, no one takes my life from me. I lay it down and take it back. I have authority to lay it down or not. So our Lord's death was not transactional. If there was a transaction. I hate that word, Janet. I'll just be honest.

I would not use the word.

I would not use the word.

I'd like to use the word covenant. There was a covenant in the Godhead, father, son, and spirit, where the father said, I am laying my electing love on a multitude of hell deserving sinners. And the son said, father, I covenant with you. I enter into agreement with you that at your behest, not because you compel, not because you force or coerce, but out of my own love, my desire to honor you, my desire to see a bride that I can enjoy for eternity. I'm going to give myself as an atoning sacrifice so that your justice will be You rightly and biblically satisfied. And the Spirit in covenant says, and I will bring those to saving faith in Jesus. It's a covenant. It's not a transaction. It's a covenant born in love. Theologians oftentimes call this the covenant of redemption. Um, you know, we read about it in Hebrews. Jesus says, I came to do thy will. And the will, of course, was that he suffer for the sins of his people. Or in John six when he said, this is the will of my father who sent me, that of all that he's given me, I lose nothing. So again, the word transaction is very negative. It's designed to denigrate and cause people to think, ooh, I don't like that. I guess the penal substitution must be evil because it's transactional. Well, no, it's not transactional. It's an expression of the covenant of our Triune God that was birthed in the both of the truths of God's holiness and his compassion and love. And we can't afford to to minimize either one. One other thing I want to say. I want to make sure we get this in. I said earlier that there was a transformation at some point in the way that people were understanding the nature of God. And it's been around for centuries. I mean, you find liberals all along the way going as far back as and even farther than this, but especially to Socinus in the time of the Reformation. Faustus Socinus Socin U.S., who basically said, um, there's no need for God to satisfy justice. There's no need for God to require the death of his son to forgive us. He'll just do it by an act of his will. And it really emerged in the earlier, about, oh, the 1930s, 1940s by a man named C.H. Dodd. Dodd was a New Testament scholar from England who wrote commentaries on Romans and Ephesians, and basically said that the word propitiation is a mistranslation of Translation of the Greek word and that we find in the New Testament. And it really just means covering. And he wanted to get away from the idea that it referred to the satisfaction of divine wrath, or the averting of divine wrath. And yet that word is so central. It's in Romans chapter three, verses 21 to 26. It's used again in first John two two. It's used in first John 410. It's used in Hebrews 217. This notion of propitiation. Uh, and again, people recoil against that because they have this deluded and I think, greatly defective view of God, that to think of him as requiring that his justice be satisfied, that requiring that sin be punished. They said, oh, I don't like that. Well, I do. I celebrate that because that tells me my God is holy, that my God will not look upon sin and idolatry and In perversion with indifference. He's wholly and just. And it requires that his justice be satisfied.

I'd like to use the word covenant. There was a covenant in the Godhead, father, son, and spirit, where the father said, I am laying my electing love on a multitude of hell deserving sinners. And the son said, father, I covenant with you. I enter into agreement with you that at your behest, not because you compel, not because you force or coerce, but out of my own love, my desire to honor you, my desire to see a bride that I can enjoy for eternity. I'm going to give myself as an atoning sacrifice so that your justice will be You rightly and biblically satisfied. And the Spirit in covenant says, and I will bring those to saving faith in Jesus. It's a covenant. It's not a transaction. It's a covenant born in love. Theologians oftentimes call this the covenant of redemption. Um, you know, we read about it in Hebrews. Jesus says, I came to do thy will. And the will, of course, was that he suffer for the sins of his people. Or in John six when he said, this is the will of my father who sent me, that of all that he's given me, I lose nothing. So again, the word transaction is very negative. It's designed to denigrate and cause people to think, ooh, I don't like that. I guess the penal substitution must be evil because it's transactional. Well, no, it's not transactional. It's an expression of the covenant of our Triune God that was birthed in the both of the truths of God's holiness and his compassion and love. And we can't afford to to minimize either one. One other thing I want to say. I want to make sure we get this in. I said earlier that there was a transformation at some point in the way that people were understanding the nature of God. And it's been around for centuries. I mean, you find liberals all along the way going as far back as and even farther than this, but especially to Socinus in the time of the Reformation. Faustus Socinus Socin U.S., who basically said, um, there's no need for God to satisfy justice. There's no need for God to require the death of his son to forgive us. He'll just do it by an act of his will. And it really emerged in the earlier, about, oh, the 1930s, 1940s by a man named C.H. Dodd. Dodd was a New Testament scholar from England who wrote commentaries on Romans and Ephesians, and basically said that the word propitiation is a mistranslation of Translation of the Greek word and that we find in the New Testament. And it really just means covering. And he wanted to get away from the idea that it referred to the satisfaction of divine wrath, or the averting of divine wrath. And yet that word is so central. It's in Romans chapter three, verses 21 to 26. It's used again in first John two two. It's used in first John 410. It's used in Hebrews 217. This notion of propitiation. Uh, and again, people recoil against that because they have this deluded and I think, greatly defective view of God, that to think of him as requiring that his justice be satisfied, that requiring that sin be punished. They said, oh, I don't like that. Well, I do. I celebrate that because that tells me my God is holy, that my God will not look upon sin and idolatry and In perversion with indifference. He's wholly and just. And it requires that his justice be satisfied.

Amen. And he would be a cosmic bully if he left us in our sin, Sam. But he made a way of escape through Jesus Christ. We've got so much more to talk about. I knew this conversation would be good. I didn't realize how fast it would go. More with Doctor Sam Storms right after this. There are dozens of talk shows that address politics, culture and technology, but in the market is committed to bringing biblical truths to every facet of life. When you financially support in the market as a partial partner, you're helping people to better understand how their faith intersects with their daily lives. Become a partial partner today and receive exclusive benefits prepared just for you. Call eight 7758 or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. We're visiting with Doctor Sam Storms, who has spent more than four decades in ministry as a pastor and as a professor, by the way. He is the past president of the Evangelical Theological Society. He is the founder of Enjoying God Ministries and the Founder, and serves also as the executive director for the Convergence Church Network. A fabulous, prolific author, a ton of information at Sam Storms. Org. Often Doctor Storms will refer that as further research and further articles and further support on a topic that we're discussing. But a book germane to our topic today is called A Dozen Things God Did with Your Sin, and three Things He'll Never Do. So, Sam, let me go back to this idea, and I, I so share and I thank you for saying it on National Airways that we really do need to have a higher view of God. So just from a mere mortals perspective, and I think of my very small finite mind compared to God's. His thoughts are way above mine, and his ways are not my ways. But it seems to me that when we read about how God handled sin in the Old Testament, I mean, I was reading recently about how Samuel hacked hacked apart the king of the Amalekites. That's taking it pretty seriously. When you decide to bring paganism into the house of God. When you talk about what happened to enemies who were pagans in the church, why even these, these the Jewish people end up in Babylon and captivity because they tried to synchronize their paganism with worshiping the one true God. Maybe, just maybe, one of the reasons for that is for God to tell us in no uncertain terms that he's very, very serious about sin, so serious that a price has to be paid. Am I right or wrong on that?

Amen. And he would be a cosmic bully if he left us in our sin, Sam. But he made a way of escape through Jesus Christ. We've got so much more to talk about. I knew this conversation would be good. I didn't realize how fast it would go. More with Doctor Sam Storms right after this. There are dozens of talk shows that address politics, culture and technology, but in the market is committed to bringing biblical truths to every facet of life. When you financially support in the market as a partial partner, you're helping people to better understand how their faith intersects with their daily lives. Become a partial partner today and receive exclusive benefits prepared just for you. Call eight 7758 or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. We're visiting with Doctor Sam Storms, who has spent more than four decades in ministry as a pastor and as a professor, by the way. He is the past president of the Evangelical Theological Society. He is the founder of Enjoying God Ministries and the Founder, and serves also as the executive director for the Convergence Church Network. A fabulous, prolific author, a ton of information at Sam Storms. Org. Often Doctor Storms will refer that as further research and further articles and further support on a topic that we're discussing. But a book germane to our topic today is called A Dozen Things God Did with Your Sin, and three Things He'll Never Do. So, Sam, let me go back to this idea, and I, I so share and I thank you for saying it on National Airways that we really do need to have a higher view of God. So just from a mere mortals perspective, and I think of my very small finite mind compared to God's. His thoughts are way above mine, and his ways are not my ways. But it seems to me that when we read about how God handled sin in the Old Testament, I mean, I was reading recently about how Samuel hacked hacked apart the king of the Amalekites. That's taking it pretty seriously. When you decide to bring paganism into the house of God. When you talk about what happened to enemies who were pagans in the church, why even these, these the Jewish people end up in Babylon and captivity because they tried to synchronize their paganism with worshiping the one true God. Maybe, just maybe, one of the reasons for that is for God to tell us in no uncertain terms that he's very, very serious about sin, so serious that a price has to be paid. Am I right or wrong on that?

Oh, you're absolutely right. In fact, you know, my mind immediately goes to Isaiah six, where Isaiah has this incredible vision of the glory of the Lord on his throne and the, you know, the angels are surrounding it crying out Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. Now I think some would prefer that we say it. Really. It really means nice. Nice. Nice is the Lord God Almighty. Because they don't want a God who is holy. And yet there's simply no escaping it. In fact, I'm glad that you mentioned the Old Testament, because people often ask, and I think we need to get into this in more detail before we end this conversation. We need to give the people the biblical teaching on this subject. I don't want people listening to this and going away thinking, well, that's Sam and Janet's perspective. What does the Bible say? Well, I'm glad you asked that. The Bible says a lot. For example, in Exodus chapter 12, go read about the day of about the Passover and how God said that when he sees the blood of the sacrificial lamb, the judgment of the angel of death will pass over them without the bloodshed by death, by sacrifice they would die as punishment for their sin. Or Leviticus 16. The Day of Atonement, where we are told about the two goats, one of which had the priest's hands laid upon his head, and was then dispatched into the wilderness as a symbol of the removal of sin from the people of Israel, and the other was slain in its bloodshed to provide atonement. Or Isaiah 53, where the you know, the prophecy of the coming Messiah says that God the Father was pleased to crush him. And all the language and imagery there is so vividly describing penal substitutionary atonement. Now, let me pause right there. We haven't defined penal substitutionary atonement by those words. Well, the words have to be all taken together, number one. Penal means that there is a penalty for sin. God doesn't just wave his wand of mercy and cause it to disappear in a cloud of pixie dust. There is. There is a law in the heart of God that requires that justice be met. That's why it's penal. It's substitutionary because the penalty falls on the substitute, not on us. And it results in atonement. It brings us into fellowship with God. In fact, I love maybe if I had one verse, Janet, to share with a non-Christian, it would be first Peter 318 For Christ also suffered once for sins. And some manuscripts read that Christ also died once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. So contrary to what the guy at the beginning of the program said, that, well, the reason he died is because he was a perfect embodiment of love. Well, yeah, I'm sure that the religious leaders and the Romans hated him for that. But here we are told that he died in order that he might bring us to God, and that the reason he died was because of the sins that the unrighteous had committed. So here's the righteous for. There's the substitutionary notice the unrighteous to bring us to God. There's the atonement. So penal substitutionary atonement. And then let me just move on. I want to make sure we get this in the New Testament. Mark ten and Matthew 20, where Jesus himself said, The Son of Man gives his life as a ransom for many. Well, why was that necessary? Unless we were in bondage to guilt and condemnation, or John 318, which says that those who do not believe in the Son of God, uh, are already condemned. I mean, that's a pretty potent statement there that they are condemned. John 336 immediately after that says, for the one who believes in the Son of God has eternal life, but he who does not believe is under the wrath of God. So there we see John and some commentators think these are the words of Jesus. More than likely it's the words of John, if you do not believe in the Son of God, if you live in defiance of him, you are under the wrath of God. And you cannot change the language of the New Testament. It doesn't say that God is simply displeased or irked. It says that there is wrath coming upon you if you do not avail yourself of the atoning sacrifice of the son. And then in Romans 321 to 26, it says that we, Christ, has been put forth as a sacrifice in his blood through the propitiation that he offered. Again, first John two. First John 410 also use the word propitiation. Now let me stop right there. Some listeners may be thinking, well, wait a minute, Sam. I've heard the word expiation. In fact, the translation of the Bible that I use says that he was the expiation of our sins. Well, he is, but listen carefully. Expiation has sin as its object. Propitiation has God as its object. So the reason why our sins are expiated or removed is because Jesus propitiated the wrath of God. So when you see the word expiation, you've got to look more closely and think, well, is that the only thing they say about the death of Christ? Because I want to know, how did he expiate our sins? How did he wipe them away? Well, it was by being a propitiation for us. So be careful, folks, about that word expiation. It does communicate truth, but only because of the truth of propitiation. And then in Romans five 8 to 10, it talks about how we have been delivered from the wrath of God because Christ died for the ungodly, and we will be forever delivered from that wrath. And Janet, you mentioned second Corinthians 521 he made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in him. Galatians 310 to 13 talks about Christ became a curse for us, that we might be delivered from the curse. First, Peter two says he bore our sins on the tree. I just mentioned. First Peter 318 how the the righteous suffers or died for the unrighteous to bring us to God. So we're simply saying we want to be faithful to what the Word of God says. I don't know how you I don't know how anybody can quibble with penal substitutionary atonement unless they quibble with the inspiration of the Bible. Yes. The bottom line.

Oh, you're absolutely right. In fact, you know, my mind immediately goes to Isaiah six, where Isaiah has this incredible vision of the glory of the Lord on his throne and the, you know, the angels are surrounding it crying out Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. Now I think some would prefer that we say it. Really. It really means nice. Nice. Nice is the Lord God Almighty. Because they don't want a God who is holy. And yet there's simply no escaping it. In fact, I'm glad that you mentioned the Old Testament, because people often ask, and I think we need to get into this in more detail before we end this conversation. We need to give the people the biblical teaching on this subject. I don't want people listening to this and going away thinking, well, that's Sam and Janet's perspective. What does the Bible say? Well, I'm glad you asked that. The Bible says a lot. For example, in Exodus chapter 12, go read about the day of about the Passover and how God said that when he sees the blood of the sacrificial lamb, the judgment of the angel of death will pass over them without the bloodshed by death, by sacrifice they would die as punishment for their sin. Or Leviticus 16. The Day of Atonement, where we are told about the two goats, one of which had the priest's hands laid upon his head, and was then dispatched into the wilderness as a symbol of the removal of sin from the people of Israel, and the other was slain in its bloodshed to provide atonement. Or Isaiah 53, where the you know, the prophecy of the coming Messiah says that God the Father was pleased to crush him. And all the language and imagery there is so vividly describing penal substitutionary atonement. Now, let me pause right there. We haven't defined penal substitutionary atonement by those words. Well, the words have to be all taken together, number one. Penal means that there is a penalty for sin. God doesn't just wave his wand of mercy and cause it to disappear in a cloud of pixie dust. There is. There is a law in the heart of God that requires that justice be met. That's why it's penal. It's substitutionary because the penalty falls on the substitute, not on us. And it results in atonement. It brings us into fellowship with God. In fact, I love maybe if I had one verse, Janet, to share with a non-Christian, it would be first Peter 318 For Christ also suffered once for sins. And some manuscripts read that Christ also died once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. So contrary to what the guy at the beginning of the program said, that, well, the reason he died is because he was a perfect embodiment of love. Well, yeah, I'm sure that the religious leaders and the Romans hated him for that. But here we are told that he died in order that he might bring us to God, and that the reason he died was because of the sins that the unrighteous had committed. So here's the righteous for. There's the substitutionary notice the unrighteous to bring us to God. There's the atonement. So penal substitutionary atonement. And then let me just move on. I want to make sure we get this in the New Testament. Mark ten and Matthew 20, where Jesus himself said, The Son of Man gives his life as a ransom for many. Well, why was that necessary? Unless we were in bondage to guilt and condemnation, or John 318, which says that those who do not believe in the Son of God, uh, are already condemned. I mean, that's a pretty potent statement there that they are condemned. John 336 immediately after that says, for the one who believes in the Son of God has eternal life, but he who does not believe is under the wrath of God. So there we see John and some commentators think these are the words of Jesus. More than likely it's the words of John, if you do not believe in the Son of God, if you live in defiance of him, you are under the wrath of God. And you cannot change the language of the New Testament. It doesn't say that God is simply displeased or irked. It says that there is wrath coming upon you if you do not avail yourself of the atoning sacrifice of the son. And then in Romans 321 to 26, it says that we, Christ, has been put forth as a sacrifice in his blood through the propitiation that he offered. Again, first John two. First John 410 also use the word propitiation. Now let me stop right there. Some listeners may be thinking, well, wait a minute, Sam. I've heard the word expiation. In fact, the translation of the Bible that I use says that he was the expiation of our sins. Well, he is, but listen carefully. Expiation has sin as its object. Propitiation has God as its object. So the reason why our sins are expiated or removed is because Jesus propitiated the wrath of God. So when you see the word expiation, you've got to look more closely and think, well, is that the only thing they say about the death of Christ? Because I want to know, how did he expiate our sins? How did he wipe them away? Well, it was by being a propitiation for us. So be careful, folks, about that word expiation. It does communicate truth, but only because of the truth of propitiation. And then in Romans five 8 to 10, it talks about how we have been delivered from the wrath of God because Christ died for the ungodly, and we will be forever delivered from that wrath. And Janet, you mentioned second Corinthians 521 he made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in him. Galatians 310 to 13 talks about Christ became a curse for us, that we might be delivered from the curse. First, Peter two says he bore our sins on the tree. I just mentioned. First Peter 318 how the the righteous suffers or died for the unrighteous to bring us to God. So we're simply saying we want to be faithful to what the Word of God says. I don't know how you I don't know how anybody can quibble with penal substitutionary atonement unless they quibble with the inspiration of the Bible. Yes. The bottom line.

Is. Amen.

Is. Amen.

Do you believe that the scriptures are the inerrant and inspired Word of God? If you don't, you can do with penal substitution whatever you want. Just dismiss it out of hand. But if you actually believe this is the Word of God to us, which I do and you do, then we have to deal with this reality and we can't escape it.

Do you believe that the scriptures are the inerrant and inspired Word of God? If you don't, you can do with penal substitution whatever you want. Just dismiss it out of hand. But if you actually believe this is the Word of God to us, which I do and you do, then we have to deal with this reality and we can't escape it.

Yeah. And I think we are seeing this wayward thinking because we've juxtaposed truth for feelings, and it just makes us feel uncomfortable. And so let me go to something that you've written about before, and I remember debating him and hearing him say this. Christopher Hitchens would call it cosmic child abuse. Oh, God. And there are some critics of Substitutional penal substitutionary atonement who say exactly the same thing. You know, again, it's it's this splintering of God and Jesus as though there was the the it's too profound. It's the profundity of the Godhead, the Triune Godhead. So tell us why it is not and cannot be justified biblically as, quote, cosmic child abuse.

Yeah. And I think we are seeing this wayward thinking because we've juxtaposed truth for feelings, and it just makes us feel uncomfortable. And so let me go to something that you've written about before, and I remember debating him and hearing him say this. Christopher Hitchens would call it cosmic child abuse. Oh, God. And there are some critics of Substitutional penal substitutionary atonement who say exactly the same thing. You know, again, it's it's this splintering of God and Jesus as though there was the the it's too profound. It's the profundity of the Godhead, the Triune Godhead. So tell us why it is not and cannot be justified biblically as, quote, cosmic child abuse.

Oh, my blood boils when I hear that phrase. How horribly offensive and denigrating that is to the goodness and the grace of God. The late J.I. Packer I loved him. He was a dear friend. Referred to that language as smarty pants talk. Leave it to J.I. Packer, a Brit to say it, smarty pants talk. And that's exactly what it is. The father did not coerce the son. He did not abuse the son against the sons. I mean, when we think of child abuse, think of all the horrific implications that a grown adult will take advantage of his relationship with a child to inflict violence, sometimes sexual in nature, upon an unwilling and victim who is helpless and cannot do anything to defend himself or herself. That is not what happened at the cross. The son willingly, lovingly, freely, voluntarily offered himself up in order to endure the the just wrath of God that you and I deserved, so that we might be set free. So the cross of Christ is simultaneously an expression of both the holiness and the wrath of God on the one hand, and the love and the mercy of God on the other. And they are not in conflict with each other. So I, I, I personally, I don't want to stand in the shoes at the, at the final judgment of those who refer to the cross of Christ as cosmic child abuse. I would be terrified of standing before God who has revealed his purposes in the scriptures and have that reminded me, reminded of having said that or written that. That scares me beyond words.

Oh, my blood boils when I hear that phrase. How horribly offensive and denigrating that is to the goodness and the grace of God. The late J.I. Packer I loved him. He was a dear friend. Referred to that language as smarty pants talk. Leave it to J.I. Packer, a Brit to say it, smarty pants talk. And that's exactly what it is. The father did not coerce the son. He did not abuse the son against the sons. I mean, when we think of child abuse, think of all the horrific implications that a grown adult will take advantage of his relationship with a child to inflict violence, sometimes sexual in nature, upon an unwilling and victim who is helpless and cannot do anything to defend himself or herself. That is not what happened at the cross. The son willingly, lovingly, freely, voluntarily offered himself up in order to endure the the just wrath of God that you and I deserved, so that we might be set free. So the cross of Christ is simultaneously an expression of both the holiness and the wrath of God on the one hand, and the love and the mercy of God on the other. And they are not in conflict with each other. So I, I, I personally, I don't want to stand in the shoes at the, at the final judgment of those who refer to the cross of Christ as cosmic child abuse. I would be terrified of standing before God who has revealed his purposes in the scriptures and have that reminded me, reminded of having said that or written that. That scares me beyond words.

Exactly.

Exactly.

In fact, it's it is quintessentially the antithesis. It is the absolute incarnation. God so loved the world that he gave his only son. More with Doctor Sam Storms. Don't forget an excellent companion to our conversation today. And Sam, you have to come back and we have to pick this up again. I knew this was not going to get covered in an hour. This is too important and too deep and too rich and too significant. But in the meantime, friends, you can read a dozen things God did with your sin and three things he'll never do. I got a link on my info page back after this. A dozen things God did with your sin and three things he'll never do. One of the many outstanding books written by Doctor Sam Storms. This one very much is essential to the conversation we're having about those who push back against the idea, and I know it's a heavy theological concept, but it is a cornerstone belief. You and I should praise God for penal substitutionary atonement, Christ taking on our sins and paying the penalty for our price for our sins when we were guilty as charged. So let me go to a parallel aspect to this idea of cosmic child abuse. And you write about this also. And again, I think it's it's the world influencing theology rather than the word of God influencing the world. And I see this not only just creating confusion in the heart of individual believers, but it's insidious enough, Sam, where it could work its way to the pulpit. And I understand that we don't always have to hear sinners in the hands of an angry God every Sunday, and I understand that hellfire and brimstone is not something you want on a regular basis. But if you believe in this idea that somehow it's transactional to use that repulsive word again, contextually in this, then it's going to impact what you preach, where you're going to preach from in the word, and whether or not you're going to provide the whole counsel of God. So it has tendril outreaches, some seen, some unseen. And that's why I think this conversation is so important. So when we talk about the critics, again, talking about redemptive violence, that again, it seems to me, is man superimposing their desire to manage God onto the King himself, rather than allowing the King to reveal his plan for salvation to us through His Word and His Spirit.

In fact, it's it is quintessentially the antithesis. It is the absolute incarnation. God so loved the world that he gave his only son. More with Doctor Sam Storms. Don't forget an excellent companion to our conversation today. And Sam, you have to come back and we have to pick this up again. I knew this was not going to get covered in an hour. This is too important and too deep and too rich and too significant. But in the meantime, friends, you can read a dozen things God did with your sin and three things he'll never do. I got a link on my info page back after this. A dozen things God did with your sin and three things he'll never do. One of the many outstanding books written by Doctor Sam Storms. This one very much is essential to the conversation we're having about those who push back against the idea, and I know it's a heavy theological concept, but it is a cornerstone belief. You and I should praise God for penal substitutionary atonement, Christ taking on our sins and paying the penalty for our price for our sins when we were guilty as charged. So let me go to a parallel aspect to this idea of cosmic child abuse. And you write about this also. And again, I think it's it's the world influencing theology rather than the word of God influencing the world. And I see this not only just creating confusion in the heart of individual believers, but it's insidious enough, Sam, where it could work its way to the pulpit. And I understand that we don't always have to hear sinners in the hands of an angry God every Sunday, and I understand that hellfire and brimstone is not something you want on a regular basis. But if you believe in this idea that somehow it's transactional to use that repulsive word again, contextually in this, then it's going to impact what you preach, where you're going to preach from in the word, and whether or not you're going to provide the whole counsel of God. So it has tendril outreaches, some seen, some unseen. And that's why I think this conversation is so important. So when we talk about the critics, again, talking about redemptive violence, that again, it seems to me, is man superimposing their desire to manage God onto the King himself, rather than allowing the King to reveal his plan for salvation to us through His Word and His Spirit.

That's true. In fact, you just mentioned one other reason why penal substitution is being undermined today is because they say, well, violence doesn't accomplish anything good. Well, um, you know, I read in the Old Testament that when you would take a knife to the neck of a lamb and you would slaughter it and spill its blood on the altar, that that made atonement. That's a pretty violent act. And then you have Jesus himself, um, saying to his disciples that he said, I must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and be killed. Well, that's pretty violent language, but it's violence that is the expression of the hatred of mankind for the holiness of God. And I think there's this kind of if I can almost I don't want to get political here, but there is a growing emphasis in our society on pacifism as a broad approach to life. And again, no, I'm not advocating violence for violence sake. But this idea that anything that connotes something as strong as killing somebody in order to accomplish a good end is just rejected out of hand. Well, in society as a whole, that's probably true. But although not in all cases, but in the Bible, it is the violent suffering of the Son of Man, the scourging being spit upon, slandered, nailed to a cross, naked. That kind of violence is something that we need to recognize is God's remedy for what we deserve. Because I'm the one who deserved to be scourged and nailed to a tree naked in front of the public. And I just want to say to people, um, penal substitutionary atonement, they're going to think this is an extremist statement, but I'm going to stand by it. Penal substitutionary atonement is the gospel. If it isn't true, there is no good news. Yes, there might be, uh, nice sounding spiritual platitudes, uh, here and there. But the news is good because it tells me of what God has done to make it possible for me to be forgiven of my sins and enjoy an eternity with him. And without penal substitution, there's no hope for that to occur.

That's true. In fact, you just mentioned one other reason why penal substitution is being undermined today is because they say, well, violence doesn't accomplish anything good. Well, um, you know, I read in the Old Testament that when you would take a knife to the neck of a lamb and you would slaughter it and spill its blood on the altar, that that made atonement. That's a pretty violent act. And then you have Jesus himself, um, saying to his disciples that he said, I must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and be killed. Well, that's pretty violent language, but it's violence that is the expression of the hatred of mankind for the holiness of God. And I think there's this kind of if I can almost I don't want to get political here, but there is a growing emphasis in our society on pacifism as a broad approach to life. And again, no, I'm not advocating violence for violence sake. But this idea that anything that connotes something as strong as killing somebody in order to accomplish a good end is just rejected out of hand. Well, in society as a whole, that's probably true. But although not in all cases, but in the Bible, it is the violent suffering of the Son of Man, the scourging being spit upon, slandered, nailed to a cross, naked. That kind of violence is something that we need to recognize is God's remedy for what we deserve. Because I'm the one who deserved to be scourged and nailed to a tree naked in front of the public. And I just want to say to people, um, penal substitutionary atonement, they're going to think this is an extremist statement, but I'm going to stand by it. Penal substitutionary atonement is the gospel. If it isn't true, there is no good news. Yes, there might be, uh, nice sounding spiritual platitudes, uh, here and there. But the news is good because it tells me of what God has done to make it possible for me to be forgiven of my sins and enjoy an eternity with him. And without penal substitution, there's no hope for that to occur.

Couldn't agree more. And and again, forgive me. My mind is not anywhere near like your Sam. But when he whispers, when he shouts, when he says the words, it is finished on the cross. I don't think he's making a declaration of his impending death on the cross. I think what he's declaring is that this this is the sacrifice that no more. After this, it's finished. And the fulfillment of prophecy. The payment has been made. And then we'll see that even affirmed with the bodily resurrection a few days ahead. So again, it's almost as though Jesus himself is affirming the mandate for this substitution to be made for us, as well as the incomprehensible love of his having done it for us.

Couldn't agree more. And and again, forgive me. My mind is not anywhere near like your Sam. But when he whispers, when he shouts, when he says the words, it is finished on the cross. I don't think he's making a declaration of his impending death on the cross. I think what he's declaring is that this this is the sacrifice that no more. After this, it's finished. And the fulfillment of prophecy. The payment has been made. And then we'll see that even affirmed with the bodily resurrection a few days ahead. So again, it's almost as though Jesus himself is affirming the mandate for this substitution to be made for us, as well as the incomprehensible love of his having done it for us.

Absolutely. In fact, uh, that reminds me, you know, people might when they heard me list all these biblical texts, they might have said, well, Sam, you only mentioned three in the Old Testament. Well, folks, we need to remember we should not expect the Old Testament to give us the fullness of divine revelation. The Old Testament revelation comes incrementally, progressively. The Old Testament has foreshadowings adumbrations symbols, types. Prophetic. Um, a foreshadowing of what was fulfilled in the New Testament. And so all of these Old Testament types and shadows, when you just said Jesus cried out, it is finished. He's saying all of that. It has now been accomplished in me. Now is the final revelation of what all those Old Testament types, all those sacrificial lambs, was pointing to. It was pointing to what I have just accomplished in my death, and what will be sealed by my resurrection. So again, if if we do not have that truth, I don't know what we say to a lost and dying world.

Absolutely. In fact, uh, that reminds me, you know, people might when they heard me list all these biblical texts, they might have said, well, Sam, you only mentioned three in the Old Testament. Well, folks, we need to remember we should not expect the Old Testament to give us the fullness of divine revelation. The Old Testament revelation comes incrementally, progressively. The Old Testament has foreshadowings adumbrations symbols, types. Prophetic. Um, a foreshadowing of what was fulfilled in the New Testament. And so all of these Old Testament types and shadows, when you just said Jesus cried out, it is finished. He's saying all of that. It has now been accomplished in me. Now is the final revelation of what all those Old Testament types, all those sacrificial lambs, was pointing to. It was pointing to what I have just accomplished in my death, and what will be sealed by my resurrection. So again, if if we do not have that truth, I don't know what we say to a lost and dying world.

Yeah. Couldn't agree with you more. And really, what's so interesting is that in terms that are not familiar in a post-modern world, when we talk about this violence, when we were just talking about the physicality of his death, you know, Isaiah tells us that he was beaten so that you couldn't even recognize him. And it wasn't just a punch in the face. I mean, the scourges. And I remember hearing talking to Jim Caviezel when he was making The Passion of the Christ. He had a wax prosthesis on his back, and the person who was doing the whipping kind of overshot it, and it hit him around the chest rather than on the back, and he almost passed out. That was one that was one lash. So when you think of what Christ paid for us, but the in terms that we don't ordinarily associate with this Sam, this is the incarnation of love. I'm guilty. He steps in. I mean, Victor Hugo picks this up right when he talks about the man at the gallows in France who steps in for the innocent man to take his life. That theme of substitutionary atonement weaves its way throughout great literature, because it's almost incomprehensible that somebody would love me. You, any of us enough to say, no, you're guilty. I step in, I pay the price. So all of those violent words that people struggle with are just a way of saying, Jesus loves me. This. I know it's pretty. Pretty remarkable, isn't it?

Yeah. Couldn't agree with you more. And really, what's so interesting is that in terms that are not familiar in a post-modern world, when we talk about this violence, when we were just talking about the physicality of his death, you know, Isaiah tells us that he was beaten so that you couldn't even recognize him. And it wasn't just a punch in the face. I mean, the scourges. And I remember hearing talking to Jim Caviezel when he was making The Passion of the Christ. He had a wax prosthesis on his back, and the person who was doing the whipping kind of overshot it, and it hit him around the chest rather than on the back, and he almost passed out. That was one that was one lash. So when you think of what Christ paid for us, but the in terms that we don't ordinarily associate with this Sam, this is the incarnation of love. I'm guilty. He steps in. I mean, Victor Hugo picks this up right when he talks about the man at the gallows in France who steps in for the innocent man to take his life. That theme of substitutionary atonement weaves its way throughout great literature, because it's almost incomprehensible that somebody would love me. You, any of us enough to say, no, you're guilty. I step in, I pay the price. So all of those violent words that people struggle with are just a way of saying, Jesus loves me. This. I know it's pretty. Pretty remarkable, isn't it?

Yes it is.

Yes it is.

Oh, Sam. Thank you. We didn't. In your article that you wrote. That's excellent. It's at sandstorms.org ten things you should know about Penal Substitution. I didn't get through a third of them, so I want to go back to this subject because I'm very, very concerned in this latter day where good is called evil, evil is called good where there is Matthew 24 and 25, this rising now of apostasy and heresy, and yet a great revival. Let's increase that revival and see if we can dial down some of the apostasy and heresy. And you could do that, friends, by reading a dozen things God did with your sin, and three things he'll never do. Can I recommend also Sam's website, Sam Storms. Because there's always just an abundance of information there, written articles that speak back to the teaching that Sam does. And you're going to find some things there, too. On penal substitutionary atonement. Thank you, Sam, for an absolutely superb, clear biblical conversation on such a cornerstone aspect of Christianity. Thank you friends. See you next time.