Welcome to I Do Part two the podcast for people that maybe didn't find there happily ever after the first time around. I'm one of your hosts, Jana Kramer, and today I'm joined by one of our favorite celebrity mentors here on the podcast, former pro dancer for twenty six seasons on Dancing with the Stars. It's my girl, Cheryl Burke. Hey girl, Hey, Today we're going to dive into the topic of divorce, something we know nothing about. Some celebs in the headlines new trends and divorce. We're going to bring in Kate Simmons, a divorce attorney with Simmons Law Group. She's got a video right now that is popping up all over the internet, so let's get her in here and do a deep dive on this. Kate, thank you so much for coming on the show. I kind of want to start this off and we'll just deep dive right into it. So when I saw your video, so you've got this video going viral right now on TikTok and some other you know streamers, and you basically said, like, here are the three people that are most likely not going to cheat, right you said, farmers, accountants and pharmacists. Is that accurate?

Welcome to I Do Part two the podcast for people that maybe didn't find there happily ever after the first time around. I'm one of your hosts, Jana Kramer, and today I'm joined by one of our favorite celebrity mentors here on the podcast, former pro dancer for twenty six seasons on Dancing with the Stars. It's my girl, Cheryl Burke. Hey girl, Hey, Today we're going to dive into the topic of divorce, something we know nothing about. Some celebs in the headlines new trends and divorce. We're going to bring in Kate Simmons, a divorce attorney with Simmons Law Group. She's got a video right now that is popping up all over the internet, so let's get her in here and do a deep dive on this. Kate, thank you so much for coming on the show. I kind of want to start this off and we'll just deep dive right into it. So when I saw your video, so you've got this video going viral right now on TikTok and some other you know streamers, and you basically said, like, here are the three people that are most likely not going to cheat, right you said, farmers, accountants and pharmacists. Is that accurate?

That's right, That's what's on the video.

That's right, That's what's on the video.

So when I watch it, and maybe this is just like my jaded heart from my past relationship, but I'm like, a how did you come up with that? But also in my mind, I'm like, a dude's gonna cheat no matter what they do, right, So it's like and a lot of times, you know, my last husband was a professional athlete, all right, he's in the terrible category of most likely going to cheat. Not saying they all do, because now my husband was a professional athlete as well, has never cheated, wouldn't dare to freaking cheat? Is the most respectful man, never cheated on his X, wouldn't cheat on me, whether I mean anything. It's like, so it's like to label someone a cheater or not a cheater to me is kind of like, how can you even do that?

So when I watch it, and maybe this is just like my jaded heart from my past relationship, but I'm like, a how did you come up with that? But also in my mind, I'm like, a dude's gonna cheat no matter what they do, right, So it's like and a lot of times, you know, my last husband was a professional athlete, all right, he's in the terrible category of most likely going to cheat. Not saying they all do, because now my husband was a professional athlete as well, has never cheated, wouldn't dare to freaking cheat? Is the most respectful man, never cheated on his X, wouldn't cheat on me, whether I mean anything. It's like, so it's like to label someone a cheater or not a cheater to me is kind of like, how can you even do that?

In a way, you're so right and you can't really do that. I mean, I've done videos that have gone viral and let's just get it out of the way. The most likely to cheat men, of course, men are going to cheat your spot on. I see it every day. Cops, firefighters, I mean, divorce lawyers will joke behind the scenes, like if you married a cop, that was your first mistake. So we talk about people in law enforcement EMTs, firefighters most likely one hundred percent.

In a way, you're so right and you can't really do that. I mean, I've done videos that have gone viral and let's just get it out of the way. The most likely to cheat men, of course, men are going to cheat your spot on. I see it every day. Cops, firefighters, I mean, divorce lawyers will joke behind the scenes, like if you married a cop, that was your first mistake. So we talk about people in law enforcement EMTs, firefighters most likely one hundred percent.

Of the time, one hundred percent of the time.

Of the time, one hundred percent of the time.

Not one hundred percent of the time. But if someone calls and they say, it's you know, the talk of the fire station, the talk of the cop shop, I mean that we expect. So when those videos got so popular, we got all this feedback about who's not cheating, women and men who are more or less likely to be in the console chair talking about cheating, and so we just came up with like ten occupations that we don't see that much. Accountants, librarians, we said, teachers long ago, and the internet started on fire, like here are all these teachers that are cheating. But it is really difficult outside of the occupations I mentioned. You know something really interesting about cheating that I think is coming to the forefront more. And when I talk to women, middle aged women, there's let's set aside the young guys that are acting inappropriately, but when we see families broken apart by true affairs and women come in in their late thirties and forties, I want to hear from both of you if you agree, if you think this is mainstream information. But I describe to these women when men are finding these other lies and they're going to another person, it's really easy for the wife to say, what did I do wrong? What did I do in this relationship to cause this? And I think it's becoming more understandable and people are accepting the feedback from me more readily that those people, those men, let's just stick with the gender bias. Those husbands are unhappy with themselves, that it's not something that these women are doing or it always takes two when a relationship breaks down. But I think it's becoming much more of a positive spin in a way for them to move forward in their lives for their new beginning, to recognize that those men are unhappy with themselves and they're looking for something, and they're looking for something that does not stem from the fault of the other spouse.

Not one hundred percent of the time. But if someone calls and they say, it's you know, the talk of the fire station, the talk of the cop shop, I mean that we expect. So when those videos got so popular, we got all this feedback about who's not cheating, women and men who are more or less likely to be in the console chair talking about cheating, and so we just came up with like ten occupations that we don't see that much. Accountants, librarians, we said, teachers long ago, and the internet started on fire, like here are all these teachers that are cheating. But it is really difficult outside of the occupations I mentioned. You know something really interesting about cheating that I think is coming to the forefront more. And when I talk to women, middle aged women, there's let's set aside the young guys that are acting inappropriately, but when we see families broken apart by true affairs and women come in in their late thirties and forties, I want to hear from both of you if you agree, if you think this is mainstream information. But I describe to these women when men are finding these other lies and they're going to another person, it's really easy for the wife to say, what did I do wrong? What did I do in this relationship to cause this? And I think it's becoming more understandable and people are accepting the feedback from me more readily that those people, those men, let's just stick with the gender bias. Those husbands are unhappy with themselves, that it's not something that these women are doing or it always takes two when a relationship breaks down. But I think it's becoming much more of a positive spin in a way for them to move forward in their lives for their new beginning, to recognize that those men are unhappy with themselves and they're looking for something, and they're looking for something that does not stem from the fault of the other spouse.

Cheryl, when you got divorce, was your first thought, did you go into why I could because I was in this or that?

Cheryl, when you got divorce, was your first thought, did you go into why I could because I was in this or that?

I think yeah, And I think it actually stems from the way I was raised, right like, I don't think it just I think that's a natural we're all human, and I think the first thing we do is in a way shame ourselves, blame ourselves and definitely try to put the pieces together and get answers. But sometimes there's just no answers, right, And for the most part, I think, naturally my brain went to, Yeah, what did I do wrong? Did I not sleep with him enough? Did I you know, there's all these questions that I ask myself. Was I not there? Emotionally? Was I not? It's just but ultimately intellectually I know, of course it has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with that person. But naturally, right, and if I wasn't in therapy for as long as I've been in therapy, it would have really taken a toll on my own self esteem, my confidence, just me as a woman in general. You know.

I think yeah, And I think it actually stems from the way I was raised, right like, I don't think it just I think that's a natural we're all human, and I think the first thing we do is in a way shame ourselves, blame ourselves and definitely try to put the pieces together and get answers. But sometimes there's just no answers, right, And for the most part, I think, naturally my brain went to, Yeah, what did I do wrong? Did I not sleep with him enough? Did I you know, there's all these questions that I ask myself. Was I not there? Emotionally? Was I not? It's just but ultimately intellectually I know, of course it has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with that person. But naturally, right, and if I wasn't in therapy for as long as I've been in therapy, it would have really taken a toll on my own self esteem, my confidence, just me as a woman in general. You know.

Yeah, and I think Kate's your thing too, I mean to kind of what you're saying, Cheryl. I remember, it's my first thought was when I found out that what he was cheating was you know, why am I not enough for you? To like? Is what's wrong with me? That he went to go be with someone else? Like was? You know? But my thing was I went back to old conversations that we had, like I'll never forget. We were sitting at this restaurant and I was asking him, like, you know, why he wouldn't be physical with me or sleep with me, and he's like, well, look at you. You look at you wear to bed, and I'm like, I wear a big like a big T shirt, you know, and he's like, you think that's sexy. Really you think that's sexy, And I'm like, I've just never been a lingerie girl, right, So I never did pull on lauingderie. I always thought the big boyfriend T shirt was sexy and like, but like, uh. He immediately blamed his and I didn't know he was cheating at that point on the fact that I didn't dress sexy. So once I found out, I was like, oh, it's because I wasn't sexy enough for him, so he chose something else that was sexier, and so imediately it went to I wasn't good enough. I'm not pretty enough for him to or sexy enough, and I you know, I didn't give him what he needed, so that's why, and I need to now do this to please him so that he stays and like doesn't do it again.

Yeah, and I think Kate's your thing too, I mean to kind of what you're saying, Cheryl. I remember, it's my first thought was when I found out that what he was cheating was you know, why am I not enough for you? To like? Is what's wrong with me? That he went to go be with someone else? Like was? You know? But my thing was I went back to old conversations that we had, like I'll never forget. We were sitting at this restaurant and I was asking him, like, you know, why he wouldn't be physical with me or sleep with me, and he's like, well, look at you. You look at you wear to bed, and I'm like, I wear a big like a big T shirt, you know, and he's like, you think that's sexy. Really you think that's sexy, And I'm like, I've just never been a lingerie girl, right, So I never did pull on lauingderie. I always thought the big boyfriend T shirt was sexy and like, but like, uh. He immediately blamed his and I didn't know he was cheating at that point on the fact that I didn't dress sexy. So once I found out, I was like, oh, it's because I wasn't sexy enough for him, so he chose something else that was sexier, and so imediately it went to I wasn't good enough. I'm not pretty enough for him to or sexy enough, and I you know, I didn't give him what he needed, so that's why, and I need to now do this to please him so that he stays and like doesn't do it again.

But he was just gas lighting you you know well, and I know.

But he was just gas lighting you you know well, and I know.

That now, but it took I mean years of therapy to go, oh, wait a minute, this has nothing to do with me. I was always good enough. I was always pretty enough, and I was it was always his low self esteem. But when I go back to all the comments, he was trying to bring my self esteem down to make himself feel better. But you don't know that when that happens, right, like when you're going through that divorce, You're like, why who wasn't I good enough? Why couldn't he stay for me? And like treat me this way? Now this other girl. It's like no, So I think you know when I you know, Kate, I guess you know. Another question is that is when I was talking to my now husband, I was telling him we were kind of talking about infidelity, and he's like, I said, you know, the main reason that I left him wasn't because he cheated. It was because of the lies and it was because of the deceit. And he's like, what not because he slept with other women? And I'm like, no, it was because he lied about it and he wasn't honest and he was It was it was the It wasn't the act. It was the lie, and it was the deceit, That's.

That now, but it took I mean years of therapy to go, oh, wait a minute, this has nothing to do with me. I was always good enough. I was always pretty enough, and I was it was always his low self esteem. But when I go back to all the comments, he was trying to bring my self esteem down to make himself feel better. But you don't know that when that happens, right, like when you're going through that divorce, You're like, why who wasn't I good enough? Why couldn't he stay for me? And like treat me this way? Now this other girl. It's like no, So I think you know when I you know, Kate, I guess you know. Another question is that is when I was talking to my now husband, I was telling him we were kind of talking about infidelity, and he's like, I said, you know, the main reason that I left him wasn't because he cheated. It was because of the lies and it was because of the deceit. And he's like, what not because he slept with other women? And I'm like, no, it was because he lied about it and he wasn't honest and he was It was it was the It wasn't the act. It was the lie, and it was the deceit, That's.

Why, and not taking accountability and sticking to it like it's a whole thing. Yeah, Like it's never the act of it's never never.

Why, and not taking accountability and sticking to it like it's a whole thing. Yeah, Like it's never the act of it's never never.

Yeah, it's like that hurts. Yeah, I can forgive and I tried, but it's always the deceit and the lie. And so okay, do you see that a lot with is you know, when people file for divorce, you know, is it infidelity or do you see it as the the the uh, you know, the lie.

Yeah, it's like that hurts. Yeah, I can forgive and I tried, but it's always the deceit and the lie. And so okay, do you see that a lot with is you know, when people file for divorce, you know, is it infidelity or do you see it as the the the uh, you know, the lie.

You're right on, it's the lie. It's not the infidelity. It's not I'm here the day after I found out about this affair. And you've also identified a huge difference in the maturity level of twenty year old women that I see thirty year old women that I see in forty. I mean, and this is partly personal experience, but as I talk to female clients, and frankly, I do have about a fifty to fifty split gender wise, But with my female clients, it's a different mindset. When they're coming in. You're so much more confident. Think of what a different person you are a twenty year old Janet a thirty year old Janet, third year old Cheryl to forty year old Cheryl. I mean it's like our milestones are huge, and so yes, absolutely it's he wouldn't do the work necessary, or maybe maybe she cheated and I just did a consult recently. I had an affair ten years ago. I was willing to move on. I was willing to go to therapy. I wanted to do the work, and he couldn't. He never got over it. He throws it in my face every day and it just drags the relationship to a screeching halt. And so that's absolutely right. Can you get a great therapist or counselor which can be difficult to do, and do the work needed if both people want to save the relationship. Law firm is very very resolution oriented, reconciliation oriented, and it doesn't happen a lot. But if people are like, we need a therapist, we want to work on this, we want to put this on hold, I give lots of space for that timeline and for that to happen. Does it happen a lot?

You're right on, it's the lie. It's not the infidelity. It's not I'm here the day after I found out about this affair. And you've also identified a huge difference in the maturity level of twenty year old women that I see thirty year old women that I see in forty. I mean, and this is partly personal experience, but as I talk to female clients, and frankly, I do have about a fifty to fifty split gender wise, But with my female clients, it's a different mindset. When they're coming in. You're so much more confident. Think of what a different person you are a twenty year old Janet a thirty year old Janet, third year old Cheryl to forty year old Cheryl. I mean it's like our milestones are huge, and so yes, absolutely it's he wouldn't do the work necessary, or maybe maybe she cheated and I just did a consult recently. I had an affair ten years ago. I was willing to move on. I was willing to go to therapy. I wanted to do the work, and he couldn't. He never got over it. He throws it in my face every day and it just drags the relationship to a screeching halt. And so that's absolutely right. Can you get a great therapist or counselor which can be difficult to do, and do the work needed if both people want to save the relationship. Law firm is very very resolution oriented, reconciliation oriented, and it doesn't happen a lot. But if people are like, we need a therapist, we want to work on this, we want to put this on hold, I give lots of space for that timeline and for that to happen. Does it happen a lot?

Now It's like my sobriety, like without first of all taking accountability and realizing what you did was wrong or in my case, when it comes to my sobriety is first admitting that I have a problem, right, And you can't continue to seesaw back and forth, like it can't be like, oh, yes I do, Oh no I don't. I'm just a social drinker. Like no, I had to have a come to Jesus moment and be like, I actually have a drinking problem and if I want to get better, I have to do the work and do the steps and get into a program and all of it. And that's the same thing with infidelity. It's it was the teeter tottering. It's like, okay, yes, no, maybe I didn't technically cheat on you, or remember when you did this. It's like that to me, just is a huge red flag.

Now It's like my sobriety, like without first of all taking accountability and realizing what you did was wrong or in my case, when it comes to my sobriety is first admitting that I have a problem, right, And you can't continue to seesaw back and forth, like it can't be like, oh, yes I do, Oh no I don't. I'm just a social drinker. Like no, I had to have a come to Jesus moment and be like, I actually have a drinking problem and if I want to get better, I have to do the work and do the steps and get into a program and all of it. And that's the same thing with infidelity. It's it was the teeter tottering. It's like, okay, yes, no, maybe I didn't technically cheat on you, or remember when you did this. It's like that to me, just is a huge red flag.

Cheryl. Let me give you a virtual high five, virtual hug. Alcohol is the poison of family court. I am so impressed with you. What a great lifestyle. So congratulations, Thank good for you girl, Thank you.

Cheryl. Let me give you a virtual high five, virtual hug. Alcohol is the poison of family court. I am so impressed with you. What a great lifestyle. So congratulations, Thank good for you girl, Thank you.

What is the number one reason why people are getting divorced when they come into your office.

What is the number one reason why people are getting divorced when they come into your office.

Grown apart different places in life. If I had to pick one, and I get that question a lot, so I would not select infidelity. I think that's really a byproduct of other things that are happening. I have a theory about society with this push to twenty year old people. Everybody, whoever you've been with for a year, it's like, what's the next step in life? Do you want to have kids? What are you doing? I think people young people get married to quickly. If you really go through all of the seasons with someone deal with difficulty, how do you too communicate? I am so lucky. I'm married to a man who's emotionally mature. He can communicate, and I don't see that a heck of a lot. And it's people who are in different places and eventually take the kids out of it, because sometimes people stay married or I'll see you when my kids are fifteen and up because I know this isn't the right relationship for me. But looking back, people see the red flags. I've had more than ten consults in the last year that will say I knew I shouldn't have married this person when we were walking down the aisle. That is so heartbreaking.

Grown apart different places in life. If I had to pick one, and I get that question a lot, so I would not select infidelity. I think that's really a byproduct of other things that are happening. I have a theory about society with this push to twenty year old people. Everybody, whoever you've been with for a year, it's like, what's the next step in life? Do you want to have kids? What are you doing? I think people young people get married to quickly. If you really go through all of the seasons with someone deal with difficulty, how do you too communicate? I am so lucky. I'm married to a man who's emotionally mature. He can communicate, and I don't see that a heck of a lot. And it's people who are in different places and eventually take the kids out of it, because sometimes people stay married or I'll see you when my kids are fifteen and up because I know this isn't the right relationship for me. But looking back, people see the red flags. I've had more than ten consults in the last year that will say I knew I shouldn't have married this person when we were walking down the aisle. That is so heartbreaking.

Yeah, I had one of those. I had one of those that went in the bathroom and cried about it because I was like, well, prap.

Yeah, I had one of those. I had one of those that went in the bathroom and cried about it because I was like, well, prap.

This is the thing with being in the business. It's like it just felt like a dress rehearsal.

This is the thing with being in the business. It's like it just felt like a dress rehearsal.

Yeah, right, And why couldn't you Why couldn't you pull out of that moment?

Yeah, right, And why couldn't you Why couldn't you pull out of that moment?

Oh? There was no way in hell.

Oh? There was no way in hell.

We had the magazine you know, thing already they were paying, they paid.

We had the magazine you know, thing already they were paying, they paid.

I had Bendy Weiss involved, Like this was not.

I had Bendy Weiss involved, Like this was not.

People already had their tickets and how could I How could I ruin people's plans was what my thought was, Like.

People already had their tickets and how could I How could I ruin people's plans was what my thought was, Like.

Their airline tickets or like the tickets to the show.

Their airline tickets or like the tickets to the show.

Like the plans, How could I ruin that for them? Yeah, they've already spent their money on it.

Like the plans, How could I ruin that for them? Yeah, they've already spent their money on it.

Yep, and nothing. Nothing in our thought process was like maybe this is wrong and I need to like run away bride it.

Yep, and nothing. Nothing in our thought process was like maybe this is wrong and I need to like run away bride it.

You know. It's yeah, that's the part where it's you know, it's sad now to think because I believe and now I know in my you know, this age being forty, that if I would have texted my mom and said, hey, I want to actually call this off because I don't think it's right, she would be like, I one thousand percent, I will let everyone know and I will you know, she would have been there. It was just my own embarrassment and maybe you know my not I wasn't one hundred percent sure, so I thought maybe i'd change my mind. I thought maybe i'd get that feeling back when I walked down the aisle.

You know. It's yeah, that's the part where it's you know, it's sad now to think because I believe and now I know in my you know, this age being forty, that if I would have texted my mom and said, hey, I want to actually call this off because I don't think it's right, she would be like, I one thousand percent, I will let everyone know and I will you know, she would have been there. It was just my own embarrassment and maybe you know my not I wasn't one hundred percent sure, so I thought maybe i'd change my mind. I thought maybe i'd get that feeling back when I walked down the aisle.

What did you feel when you walked down the aisle? I just out of curiosity, just complete regret. Oh really you were present though with yourself?

What did you feel when you walked down the aisle? I just out of curiosity, just complete regret. Oh really you were present though with yourself?

Yeah? Yeah, because I told my best friend in the bathroom, I was like, I just made the biggest mistake, and now I don't want to My whole thing was I don't want to be divorced with kids because that's the house that I grew up in. So I was like, I got to divorce them right away because I will end up having babies and then we'll get divorced and I don't want that. So that was why I then did that, you know so, but it was it was wrong, and it was it was real to somebody else, and that wasn't fair, you know.

Yeah? Yeah, because I told my best friend in the bathroom, I was like, I just made the biggest mistake, and now I don't want to My whole thing was I don't want to be divorced with kids because that's the house that I grew up in. So I was like, I got to divorce them right away because I will end up having babies and then we'll get divorced and I don't want that. So that was why I then did that, you know so, but it was it was wrong, and it was it was real to somebody else, and that wasn't fair, you know.

So now would you have gone, would you have stopped everything?

So now would you have gone, would you have stopped everything?

One hundred percent? And that's why I think to your point, Kate is marrying later in life, you know yourself more now, and it's I never want to tell like when I hear someone young getting married that's in their middle twenties or you know, like, I'm like, oh gosh, it like almost like breaks my heart and I always want to celebrate love, but I also know how much you grow during those years too.

One hundred percent? And that's why I think to your point, Kate is marrying later in life, you know yourself more now, and it's I never want to tell like when I hear someone young getting married that's in their middle twenties or you know, like, I'm like, oh gosh, it like almost like breaks my heart and I always want to celebrate love, but I also know how much you grow during those years too.

But then also, who am I to say, like what is young?

But then also, who am I to say, like what is young?

Yeah, I'm like, maybe they're you know, maybe they'll end up being together forever. So who am I to say?

Yeah, I'm like, maybe they're you know, maybe they'll end up being together forever. So who am I to say?

And what a learning lesson? Like what I've like, I've learned so much too.

And what a learning lesson? Like what I've like, I've learned so much too.

Yeah, And so it's like, why would I want to take that away from people too?

Yeah, And so it's like, why would I want to take that away from people too?

You know? Yeah, I do like the discussion of It's part of your story. It makes you part of who you are. But my every day is seeing the heartbreak of divorce and the heartbreak that it brings even the greater family, everybody in the family unit and so young people. I say, and I love weddings and I love love. And by the way, I love the name of this podcast we did. I have a friend who owns a magazine in our community, and we ran a short ad for our Divorce in the Day program that was when your I do needs a redo, do it in a day? And I thought, oh, As soon as I saw the title of this podcast, I thought, that's fantastic, it's great idea.

You know? Yeah, I do like the discussion of It's part of your story. It makes you part of who you are. But my every day is seeing the heartbreak of divorce and the heartbreak that it brings even the greater family, everybody in the family unit and so young people. I say, and I love weddings and I love love. And by the way, I love the name of this podcast we did. I have a friend who owns a magazine in our community, and we ran a short ad for our Divorce in the Day program that was when your I do needs a redo, do it in a day? And I thought, oh, As soon as I saw the title of this podcast, I thought, that's fantastic, it's great idea.

Well, speaking of redos though, I mean, Bill Gates recently made headlines because he was saying, you know, his divorce was the mistake he most regretted. And you know, have you like you kind of spoke on it a little bit, but have you seen people then say never mind? Like, yeah, you said that they want to maybe do therapy, but do they end up coming back and getting divorced or have you had more people actually pull it off the table, they.

Well, speaking of redos though, I mean, Bill Gates recently made headlines because he was saying, you know, his divorce was the mistake he most regretted. And you know, have you like you kind of spoke on it a little bit, but have you seen people then say never mind? Like, yeah, you said that they want to maybe do therapy, but do they end up coming back and getting divorced or have you had more people actually pull it off the table, they.

Will come back and get divorced. And I saw that, And you know, Bill and Melinda had a long term marriage, and I thought the comment was interesting. I'm going to predict that he doesn't mean he wishes he was still married to her. I think they had their long standing issues and it's a very painful process. It's very difficult. We almost never have people actually reconcile and stay reconciled. I've had couples get divorced, remarried, divorced. I divorced the same couple three times throughout my career, and they're kind of just a love hate toxic strong feelings and no we did a Chris and I did a mediation recently where the couple really felt strongly about their relationship. They knew it was the right thing. They were very sweet people, and they asked us to hold their paperwork. They wanted to give it, you know, a little bit of time and cold within sixty days and said file it. And with the final decree and everything, we don't really see the reconciliation that successful long term.

Will come back and get divorced. And I saw that, And you know, Bill and Melinda had a long term marriage, and I thought the comment was interesting. I'm going to predict that he doesn't mean he wishes he was still married to her. I think they had their long standing issues and it's a very painful process. It's very difficult. We almost never have people actually reconcile and stay reconciled. I've had couples get divorced, remarried, divorced. I divorced the same couple three times throughout my career, and they're kind of just a love hate toxic strong feelings and no we did a Chris and I did a mediation recently where the couple really felt strongly about their relationship. They knew it was the right thing. They were very sweet people, and they asked us to hold their paperwork. They wanted to give it, you know, a little bit of time and cold within sixty days and said file it. And with the final decree and everything, we don't really see the reconciliation that successful long term.

So when you saw j Loo and Ben then reckon. I know they weren't married. They were engaged though, So when you saw them get back to Gareth and get married, did you already go divorce?

So when you saw j Loo and Ben then reckon. I know they weren't married. They were engaged though, So when you saw them get back to Gareth and get married, did you already go divorce?

Absolutely? They're just like that. I mean, it really is just like that couple. And of course they have the heighten the money, the attention, everything that goes along with being in a lister and everybody's watching, which makes it more painful. I mean, you've seen some of Jlo's statements, and I think it's incredibly painful. I also think that very famous celebrities tend to have traits of loneliness because that is such an isolating life to live.

Absolutely? They're just like that. I mean, it really is just like that couple. And of course they have the heighten the money, the attention, everything that goes along with being in a lister and everybody's watching, which makes it more painful. I mean, you've seen some of Jlo's statements, and I think it's incredibly painful. I also think that very famous celebrities tend to have traits of loneliness because that is such an isolating life to live.

I think I mean that's because they're not though finding the true love, which happens within you, right, like you complete you regardless, like there is no other person that would fill that void for you. So if you haven't done that work individually as two separate people, it's going to be really hard that you are leaving it up for so many expectations on one another that you're bound to not ever live up to it.

I think I mean that's because they're not though finding the true love, which happens within you, right, like you complete you regardless, like there is no other person that would fill that void for you. So if you haven't done that work individually as two separate people, it's going to be really hard that you are leaving it up for so many expectations on one another that you're bound to not ever live up to it.

That's right, and not as a negative to people like Ben and Jlo who have those goes. I don't mean that in a negative way. It's just part of their personality. But how exhausting to support someone as fabulous and famous as you are all the time and have that constant balance in your life. How do they find a balance? I think? But yeah, I figure they'll be they'll be splitting up again.

That's right, and not as a negative to people like Ben and Jlo who have those goes. I don't mean that in a negative way. It's just part of their personality. But how exhausting to support someone as fabulous and famous as you are all the time and have that constant balance in your life. How do they find a balance? I think? But yeah, I figure they'll be they'll be splitting up again.

Do you think it's easier or more complicated to get divorce late in life?

Do you think it's easier or more complicated to get divorce late in life?

Easier the silver divorce? Oh yeah?

Easier the silver divorce? Oh yeah?

So Chery, what is that? Because I you know, I saw you were talking about silver divorce, so I have I don't know what it is. Tell me what I mean?

So Chery, what is that? Because I you know, I saw you were talking about silver divorce, so I have I don't know what it is. Tell me what I mean?

I just found out today, But silver divorce is like when you divorce later in life, right when you're like in your fifty fifty sixties. I think and you realize that, Wow, this is not the person I want to live my rest of my life with. But I also think it's generational, right, So, like I just think about my parents right now. I come from a divorce family, but my mom remarried my stepfather and if they were too divorced. Today, there's so much it's generational in the sense of first of all, when my mom, you know, was being raised by her parents, there was no such thing like there. She's Filipino, she's very Catholic, and there's a lot of shame that comes with it. But I think with how open we are now with mental health, I think it's leaving that door maybe a little bit open for that generation nowadays to be like, you know what, I'm going to choose me.

I just found out today, But silver divorce is like when you divorce later in life, right when you're like in your fifty fifty sixties. I think and you realize that, Wow, this is not the person I want to live my rest of my life with. But I also think it's generational, right, So, like I just think about my parents right now. I come from a divorce family, but my mom remarried my stepfather and if they were too divorced. Today, there's so much it's generational in the sense of first of all, when my mom, you know, was being raised by her parents, there was no such thing like there. She's Filipino, she's very Catholic, and there's a lot of shame that comes with it. But I think with how open we are now with mental health, I think it's leaving that door maybe a little bit open for that generation nowadays to be like, you know what, I'm going to choose me.

That's right. And my message to women is choose you when you're forty or when the kids are out of the house. I have a lot of experience with gray or silver divorce, whichever you call it. We're my law firms in Phoenix. We're very close to a lot of retirement communities, as you can imagine, and I have had a lot of the both men and women in their seventies, eighties, late eighties. Can you imagine going through this awful process. The silver lining is that they're pretty calm about the whole situation. And here's the sad part. This is my message to middle aged women, because they knew say it's a silver divorce, that they have been truly married fifty years, not a second marriage, and the kids are long gone. All of the properties community they all say they First of all, everybody tells me how many years they've been living in separate bedrooms, how long it's been since they've had sex with each other, And it's decades, I mean decades that they've been living as roommates. And it's such an awful process. No one wanted to start it, but it we all know where the three of us are about the same age. When you're fifty, you have a whole life ahead of you. I mean that's the heartbreaking part when I see the silver divorce because they've been you know, they've been roommates for decades. Frankly, I see it the opposite.

That's right. And my message to women is choose you when you're forty or when the kids are out of the house. I have a lot of experience with gray or silver divorce, whichever you call it. We're my law firms in Phoenix. We're very close to a lot of retirement communities, as you can imagine, and I have had a lot of the both men and women in their seventies, eighties, late eighties. Can you imagine going through this awful process. The silver lining is that they're pretty calm about the whole situation. And here's the sad part. This is my message to middle aged women, because they knew say it's a silver divorce, that they have been truly married fifty years, not a second marriage, and the kids are long gone. All of the properties community they all say they First of all, everybody tells me how many years they've been living in separate bedrooms, how long it's been since they've had sex with each other, And it's decades, I mean decades that they've been living as roommates. And it's such an awful process. No one wanted to start it, but it we all know where the three of us are about the same age. When you're fifty, you have a whole life ahead of you. I mean that's the heartbreaking part when I see the silver divorce because they've been you know, they've been roommates for decades. Frankly, I see it the opposite.

Like I think it's a beautiful thing that they're like finally seeing themselves, like as their own person, and like we do, we evolve, and sometimes it's with that person you've decided to partner with, and sometimes it's not, and that's okay. But I think it's beautiful that they're opening their eyes and trying to walk the rest of their life in a present hopefully loving themselves way, you know, and doing that work. And I think it's really beautiful.

Like I think it's a beautiful thing that they're like finally seeing themselves, like as their own person, and like we do, we evolve, and sometimes it's with that person you've decided to partner with, and sometimes it's not, and that's okay. But I think it's beautiful that they're opening their eyes and trying to walk the rest of their life in a present hopefully loving themselves way, you know, and doing that work. And I think it's really beautiful.

It is beautiful. You're right. But it's always because the husband gets a girlfriend.

It is beautiful. You're right. But it's always because the husband gets a girlfriend.

I mean, but like you said earlier, it's deeper than that. It's so much deeper. I don't think it's that just because of that. I think there was, like like you said, decades of not sleeping together, roommate like that goes. I have had that same experience, except not even close to as long as those people have been married. You know. That's feeling of stagnant, like that stagnation feeling. I am out, I'm out fast, I can't be in it.

I mean, but like you said earlier, it's deeper than that. It's so much deeper. I don't think it's that just because of that. I think there was, like like you said, decades of not sleeping together, roommate like that goes. I have had that same experience, except not even close to as long as those people have been married. You know. That's feeling of stagnant, like that stagnation feeling. I am out, I'm out fast, I can't be in it.

You're right that it is much better. And with these communities that we have in this area, there's so many activities and new friend groups and support groups and any new beginning or a chance that finding yourself is worth it.

You're right that it is much better. And with these communities that we have in this area, there's so many activities and new friend groups and support groups and any new beginning or a chance that finding yourself is worth it.

I agree.

I agree.

Is it hard for you to be a divorce lawyer?

Is it hard for you to be a divorce lawyer?

It's not. And I can't really explain the reason, because most of my colleagues find it to be incredibly difficult on a personal level. They take the feelings home with them and I've just never been like that, and I don't really know the reason. I'm just suited for the job. I see it as a puzzle. I really, really I could be a life coach in another life. Although I'm not trained for that. I really enjoy it and I've as after thirty, I no longer work every hour of the week. I have really good boundaries. All my clients have my cell phone number. They appropriately I really like my job. But if other divorce lawyers are telling you the truth, I think I'm in the minority on that.

It's not. And I can't really explain the reason, because most of my colleagues find it to be incredibly difficult on a personal level. They take the feelings home with them and I've just never been like that, and I don't really know the reason. I'm just suited for the job. I see it as a puzzle. I really, really I could be a life coach in another life. Although I'm not trained for that. I really enjoy it and I've as after thirty, I no longer work every hour of the week. I have really good boundaries. All my clients have my cell phone number. They appropriately I really like my job. But if other divorce lawyers are telling you the truth, I think I'm in the minority on that.

How do you separate the emotion? Like, how do you do that it.

How do you separate the emotion? Like, how do you do that it.

Stays at the office. I really treat this as a job that I like. I care about my clients. I think they really care. I have wonderful clients. I'm very realistic with people. You probably know divorce attorneys can treat the job as making a lot of money, fighting a lot, filing a lot of emotions, billing by the hour. The more fighting, the sooner my kids get their college paid. I mean, that's a reality of the job, and our business model is saving people money, keeping the emotions in check. I'm very realistic with them up front. We talk about their goals, we talk about the law, we talk about the process, we talk about mediation, and I our office is trying to change the culture of divorce in Arizona, and that's how I treat it.

Stays at the office. I really treat this as a job that I like. I care about my clients. I think they really care. I have wonderful clients. I'm very realistic with people. You probably know divorce attorneys can treat the job as making a lot of money, fighting a lot, filing a lot of emotions, billing by the hour. The more fighting, the sooner my kids get their college paid. I mean, that's a reality of the job, and our business model is saving people money, keeping the emotions in check. I'm very realistic with them up front. We talk about their goals, we talk about the law, we talk about the process, we talk about mediation, and I our office is trying to change the culture of divorce in Arizona, and that's how I treat it.

Would you recommend a prenup for people that get married.

Would you recommend a prenup for people that get married.

I do recommend a prenup, and I don't think that it should hold the stereotype of you're getting a prenup and that's anti love, or if you're going to be together, you don't need it. I think there are many benefits to a prenup and anybody who's not twenty with nothing should consider it.

I do recommend a prenup, and I don't think that it should hold the stereotype of you're getting a prenup and that's anti love, or if you're going to be together, you don't need it. I think there are many benefits to a prenup and anybody who's not twenty with nothing should consider it.

Yeah, no, for sure. I guess my piece with the divorce, just for my personal stuff is the fact that you know, I pay my ex husband. I paid him a lump sum, and I also pay him child support and I have the kids seventy it's seventy thirty split. So I find it I always get a little like frustrated when I have conversations of just you know, because divorce and because it kind of just brings up all those you know, those feelings and that resentment and it's just it's just yuck.

Yeah, no, for sure. I guess my piece with the divorce, just for my personal stuff is the fact that you know, I pay my ex husband. I paid him a lump sum, and I also pay him child support and I have the kids seventy it's seventy thirty split. So I find it I always get a little like frustrated when I have conversations of just you know, because divorce and because it kind of just brings up all those you know, those feelings and that resentment and it's just it's just yuck.

I don't like.

I don't like.

I wish you would have planned a prenup.

I wish you would have planned a prenup.

We had a post up, but the problem was my divorce lawyer said it's not going to hold up in court as well as a prenup, and he's like, he technically can fight it and he could still technically win half, you know, which my ex husband at the time was like, I will never fight this, you know what I mean, which, of course when we got divorced, he's like, I'm going to fight this. But apparently again they the prenup will always hold up. And then if is that right or wrong? Prenup holds up better than post.

We had a post up, but the problem was my divorce lawyer said it's not going to hold up in court as well as a prenup, and he's like, he technically can fight it and he could still technically win half, you know, which my ex husband at the time was like, I will never fight this, you know what I mean, which, of course when we got divorced, he's like, I'm going to fight this. But apparently again they the prenup will always hold up. And then if is that right or wrong? Prenup holds up better than post.

Up, that's exactly right.

Up, that's exactly right.

So that's why, you know, with that situation, it's uh, I wish for sure I would have had signed a prenup with him prenup, but you know, at the end of the day, I still would be paying child support. That is the law of with the things, and that's you know, a whole other story.

So that's why, you know, with that situation, it's uh, I wish for sure I would have had signed a prenup with him prenup, but you know, at the end of the day, I still would be paying child support. That is the law of with the things, and that's you know, a whole other story.

But feel free to tell me too off, But did you sign one this time around?

But feel free to tell me too off, But did you sign one this time around?

So we have never discussed that. We're still not going to discuss that. But but you know, it was it was a very long conversation. We had a lot of conversation around it, and uh, I think it's really hard for men to have that conversation, especially you know, my husband is very old school and you know, did not love the idea of it. And you know, whatever we decided was a private matter, but it was something that was very important to say. It was very important to me because of how much was taken from my ex, how much my ex husband took.

So we have never discussed that. We're still not going to discuss that. But but you know, it was it was a very long conversation. We had a lot of conversation around it, and uh, I think it's really hard for men to have that conversation, especially you know, my husband is very old school and you know, did not love the idea of it. And you know, whatever we decided was a private matter, but it was something that was very important to say. It was very important to me because of how much was taken from my ex, how much my ex husband took.

I think you probably, even if you did or didn't having that conversation, you were miles ahead of most people because it's such a tough topic. If you two talked it through and talked about all your assets and what you think for the future, that's you're doing better than a lot of people before they get married.

I think you probably, even if you did or didn't having that conversation, you were miles ahead of most people because it's such a tough topic. If you two talked it through and talked about all your assets and what you think for the future, that's you're doing better than a lot of people before they get married.

So super But my my divorce attorney was definitely likes you are have it like there's no like. He's like, you are signing this, and I'm just like, Okay, I hear you and I need to have we have to have conversations. It's it's a conversation piece because I am you know, old school and the fact that I do believe in you know, love and a marriage actually lasting. I you know, I didn't get it right this go around. And that's why I love this podcast because this is about you know, I do part two and you know, Cheryl, I didn't get it right a couple of times. And Cheryl, you know you didn't. We thought you got it right, you know what I mean. But I think there's a piece of that I do Part two that I that I love and where you know, as sad as when I asked you the question about you know, is it hard for you? Because I believe that as much as divorce makes me so sad, Cheryl, I've seen from watching you on the outside of things you have, there's a different aura about you now. You're happier, you're lighter, You've like I see it from just watching your stories. And I love that people have their next chapters and that they get to fall in love again and find love that they deserve and that suits them and that you know, respects them. And so that is like so beautiful and you've come into your own and like it's just it's really beautiful to witness someone falling in love with themselves for then that person to fall in love with them and respect them the way that they deserve. So, you know, I appreciate Kate you coming on and talking to us, and you know, I just I look forward to all the people that have their part too, Cheryl, yours is coming up. See it's common, it's common. I feel the glow up I do. I just I see it and I love the lightness in you. You know, you've you've, You've entered the lights.

So super But my my divorce attorney was definitely likes you are have it like there's no like. He's like, you are signing this, and I'm just like, Okay, I hear you and I need to have we have to have conversations. It's it's a conversation piece because I am you know, old school and the fact that I do believe in you know, love and a marriage actually lasting. I you know, I didn't get it right this go around. And that's why I love this podcast because this is about you know, I do part two and you know, Cheryl, I didn't get it right a couple of times. And Cheryl, you know you didn't. We thought you got it right, you know what I mean. But I think there's a piece of that I do Part two that I that I love and where you know, as sad as when I asked you the question about you know, is it hard for you? Because I believe that as much as divorce makes me so sad, Cheryl, I've seen from watching you on the outside of things you have, there's a different aura about you now. You're happier, you're lighter, You've like I see it from just watching your stories. And I love that people have their next chapters and that they get to fall in love again and find love that they deserve and that suits them and that you know, respects them. And so that is like so beautiful and you've come into your own and like it's just it's really beautiful to witness someone falling in love with themselves for then that person to fall in love with them and respect them the way that they deserve. So, you know, I appreciate Kate you coming on and talking to us, and you know, I just I look forward to all the people that have their part too, Cheryl, yours is coming up. See it's common, it's common. I feel the glow up I do. I just I see it and I love the lightness in you. You know, you've you've, You've entered the lights.

Definitely different from our last conversation.

Definitely different from our last conversation.

Yeah, Kate, thank you so much for coming on.

Yeah, Kate, thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you both.

Thank you both.

Are you divorced? Navigating what your I Do Part two could look like? I need some advice? Call us or email us, follow us on socials. All the information will be in the show notes. Make sure to rate and review the podcast I Do Part two and iHeartRadio podcast where falling in love is the main objective. Love you, Cheryl, Love you,

Are you divorced? Navigating what your I Do Part two could look like? I need some advice? Call us or email us, follow us on socials. All the information will be in the show notes. Make sure to rate and review the podcast I Do Part two and iHeartRadio podcast where falling in love is the main objective. Love you, Cheryl, Love you,