Maria Korp’s decomposing body was found in the boot of her car. When former detective Narelle Fraser saw Maria, she got into the cramped car and laid beside her near-lifeless body. Desperately looking for any small sign of life, Narelle rested her head on Maria’s chest. Ever so slowly, it moved up and down.
Narelle walks Gary Jubelin through the case that shocked Australia. A story of lust, love, betrayal - and the extraordinary lengths of a compassionate detective.
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The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired Victoria and police detective Norell Fraser. If you listen to part one, you heard some I got to say, Nerell pretty heavy stuff, but that is the nature of the work that you also heard about Norell talking the way that she went about their investigations, and the compassion and the empathy she had, and when we're talking about victims of serious crimes, we're not making light in any way of the nature of these crimes. This is the world of crime, and this is what we talk about on the Eye Catch Killers and the consequences when someone's life is taken. It's not just a person whose life's taken, it's the amount of people around around them. It just it escalates, doesn't it. It's not just the victim or the immediate family that's a friends, it's generational that just passes on.
And you know, in saying that, I do feel like, let's say, John Sharp, you know, his mum and dad and his family were the innocent also innocent victims in all this, and I never want to take away from the fact that they have suffered as well. But you know it's not their fault as to what John did, and they must feel I imagine, terrible shame. Yeah, so I hear what you're saying. And also just another thing, when I was talking before about being euphoric, ID I do think sometimes I hope, I feel like I have to justify that, and you did very well. But just to say, as a detective, when you put twenty four to seven months into a job, an investigation and you find the evidence that you're looking for. You do feel like everything else goes away because you are just so wrapped that you've found what you're looking for, even if that is a body. It sounds terrible, but so I don't want people to think, you know, you for it finding your body.
You know, Noelle, what you're saying to me, I fully understand. I think you know. We're trying to take people into the world world of crime, and they might look and go, what are these two idiots talking about? Do they have any comprehension? You spent twenty seven years in the police. That's how you survive that. You've got to focus. You've got to have the highs and lows. And I always give people sometimes when we're talking about this, sometimes the victims see highs and lowers, Like I've dealt with the families of murdered victims, and they've got to find some joy. And I won't say joy in a strange sort of way, but they've got to be able to laugh at situations. Otherwise it's just too dark. And I think police, when you've been doing policing for a long time, you've got to take the good moments and enjoy it. You'll go home after feeling you for it. And I've been there. I've been there where a case is cracked and you've got the breakthrough you need and you're all high five in each other and you're running around. When you get back to your home and you sit there and think about what has gone on, that's when it hits you. When you're laying there at night going or you're getting up the next day getting ready to go to work and you've got to face this horror. So I think people understand, so you don't have tologize, and I think that people listen to it in totality understand exactly where you're coming from. I'm just going to change direction very quickly, policing off the top of your head a moment that you were really scared for your life, because most people have spent long enough in police that there's a time when you have that off. Shit, what's going to happen here?
Did have to be to do with the Wolsh Street Well, I think I don't know if they were convicted in the end, when everywhere but a guy called Victor Pierce. Victor Pierce was part of the Carlton Gang Carlton Crew, and he had him and three others had just been acquitted of the Wolsh Street murders. And two days after that, of course, you know, Victoria police were just devastated. It was a pretty difficult time to be in the job. And so they get acquitted and two days later I'm working undercover, just doing some we used to call them special duties where you're in plain clothes and you're just driving around, you know, looking at assisting the uniform members or looking for drug deals and all that sort of stuff. Anyway, we're in North Melbourne and there's a call across the radio to say that there's a man that's being held by a Vietnamese storeholder, a milk bar owner under the North Melbourne flats. They were Housing Commission flats, and nobody was available to do this job. And so myself and my two colleagues we came up on the radio and said, oh, you know, it was a theft of a jar coffee, I think, and oh look we'll do that, you know, that's easy. So anyway, we drive up and we see this man and he is surrounded by probably twenty Vietnamese and the milk bar was under the flats, so it's outside on the sort of fore court just outside the milk bar, and there's this man and he's holding this little girl in it, holding her hand, and there's lots and lots of yelling, and anyway, as we walk towards what's going on, we all realize the man in the middle is Victor Piers. He's just been acquitted two days prior, and it was like, oh my god. And I can remember thinking is this a setup? Because the North Melbourne Flats that's where a number of the suspects lived. One of them lived up in the one or two lived up in the flats. So I actually thought that we were going to be shot from above.
Just calling you in.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, And so I remember just wanting to get out of the forecourt underneath the milk bar. Anyway, Look, we eventually did. We got under there, and we ended up charging him. We couldn't we got him. He was acquitted for the Wall Street merders. But we got in for a theft of a jar of coffee for two dollars fifty eight.
Okay, well it's a they got al capane for tax evasions, so I suppose it's a stuff.
Yeah, So I remember feeling like that. And there was one other time where there was a guy taking potshots on the top of a housing commission in Collingwood and we arrived and we didn't know where he was, and we could hear them, and I remember hiding behind a bush and thinking, I'm gone here, because you know, we were just so obvious. I thought we would be anyway in the end. We had our guns out, you know, yeah, women and all that sort of stuff. But that was pretty frightening. But I think Victor Pierce was the one where I thought, oh my god, this is a setup.
You felt pretty vulnerable there. Yeah, I understand in the circumstances. Yeah, all right. We talked about that case in part one. There's another case that in the research I've done that you've been involved in, and that was the I've referred it to as a body in the Bookcase of Maria Corp. That was two thousand and five, that that occurred. You were involved in that. Can you tell us your involvement in the nature of the case and what happened.
Maria Corp was married to Joe Corp. They lived in a lovely, quite spacious place in Greenvale. I think it was in Victoria and Maria hadn't picked up her son Damien after school, which was very normal, so the police were Joe Corp actually rang the police on that night, was the ninth of feb in two thousand and five, and Joe rang to say he was concerned about his wife. She hadn't picked up their son and it was very unusual. Joe went to the Craigieburn police station to report this. But again the police at Craigiebourne, they just smelt a rat. There was just something not right. No, it did not add up. But what eventually happened is that we get the job. I'm at Missing Persons still and we get the job because you know, her disappearance is out of character. So we get the job very quickly and we interview Joe, you know, just what's happened. We get a statement from him, We speak to the school, we speak to the young boy, you know, a whole lot of stuff, just normal investative stuff. But what we find there's a few things that start happening. Joe has told us that the marriage was happy, but then we find that he's been on the internet looking for threesomes and he happened to have found a threesome with a woman called Tanya. We speak to Tanya and yeah, her and Joe and Maria have had a threesome. Know nothing to see here, so we smell obviously, we smell a rat. But we do a media release and we ask if anyone sees Maria's car because it's missing, if they see it, can they call it in. Well, on this Sunday morning, I happen to be working at Saint Kilda Road and the Shrine of Remembrance is just across the road from where we were working, and a shrine guard rings and says, I think I've got the car, and we say, don't touch it.
This is Maria's car.
Yep, yep, don't touch it. We'll be there. And literally five minutes we almost could have seen it from our window. And so we raced down there and it was that close you wouldn't get a car like that's how close it was. We just virtually ran across the road and anyway we see the car, and probably eighty meters away we could smell it. You would know there is a smell about a dead body that is hard to describe, but it is unmistakable, and we could smell it from about eighty meters. But also there was a lot of condensation inside the car, so we were pretty sure that she was in there anyway, So we called in everybody and the I don't know about twenty minutes and everyone's there. But I know at the time we were considering do we open up the boot because we might contaminate the scene, you know. So there was a bit of doing and throwing, and always felt uncomfortable about that because I wanted to get in there to make sure she was dead. But in the end it was decided we wait for the texts the technical guys to come anyway. They they're there within minutes, and of course, looking in the car, we set up a crime scene and all that sort of stuff, the crime scene tape. But looking in the car, she wasn't in the front, she wasn't in the back, so we knew that she would be in the hatch.
It was a hatch brunk in the back.
Yeah, So, and the smell was overpowering and we eventually get the boot open, and I'll never forget there was probably about ten homicide detectives at the back of the boot and when they opened the boot, me included and when we opened the boot, it was just like a wave of this horrendous smell. One of the detectives fainted, a couple were being sick. It was just that that smell. Oh god, it was her.
End decayne flesh.
Yes, yeah, decaying. And there's little Maria, and she's like in the fetal position, and she's a tiny little woman and she's all disheveled, like she's got all her clothes up around her chest, and she's clearly deceased because she's decomposing. And so we just to see her there, so helpless and so alone and almost like a frightened little animal. And somebody had to get in to see if she was, you know, to make sure that she was dead. And so I just did it without thinking, you know, Gary, like you just don't think. I just wanted to sort of comfort her, I suppose. And so I get in and I sort of get myself around so that I'm almost spooning her because I'm looking for signs of life, obviously, but she's decomposing. She had blood coming from her ears, and so I remember, you know, checking for signs of life, and I couldn't find anything. So I go to the sergeant, No, look, she's she's dead. But just on a bit of a whim, I thought, I'll just make one hundred and ten percent sure. So somehow I managed to get it so that my head was I could see her chest. I couldn't believe it, but her chest just moved ever so slowly up and down, and I remember thinking like yelling, oh my god, she's alive. So of course everyone rallies round into action. So anyway, when I saw her little chest move up and down, it was again it was euphoric. I wasn't euphoric, but it was like, oh God, So everyone rallies ran into action.
Can I like, I think a lot of us have done the body in the boot situation where you're opening a boot and there's a body there. And I very much know the smell the body fluids coming out of the car. I just I can smell it as we talk about it. But I just got to wind your back. You got in the boot, like I've seen bodies in boots. We weren't sure, but there were a human body or a carcass. You know that's in fact it can have You actually got in the back the hatchback checking signs of life, which of course you have to do. You can't make assumptions. So how did you feel when you saw a chest rise? Like I would have, I was jumped through the roof. It would have scared hell out of me.
What you No, I wasn't scared. I was just Oh, I was shocked because because she was decomposing and just the smell, as you say, of like decaying flesh. I wasn't expecting it. But then maybe in a way it was why would I you know, like funny, like all these signs of life, there's nothing, And then I put my head on her chest, you know, I just but it was shocked, Gary, I just wasn't expecting it. And I remember just yelling at the top of my voice, oh my god, she's alive. Like I think that could have heard it twenty kilometers away. I was just so yeah, I was shocked, and everyone else was too, and it was like, oh, quick, get the ambulance, you know, all that sort of stuff, but absolute shock. I was the laugh thing on earth.
I was expecting I could imagine, so that the ambulance come. She didn't survive or take it.
No, And just with the ambulance, I never ever let go again. I sound all this, I sound very fluffy and soft, but like this woman is in the back of her I'm sorry. And she had all these marks around her neck and that they were bleeding as well, and so again I just couldn't leave her. And I remember my my sergeant said don't leave her, stay with her, because we were thinking, by some miracle that she might actually wake up and say it was Joe, you know, or whoever. And so I didn't leave her. I was in the back in the ambulance with her. Anyway, we got to the hospital and there was people waiting for us. We get into the operating room and because everyone's you know, so they rip open her did they rip open a shirt? But I took all her clothing and everything. She never ever regained consciousness. She was in a coma for six months, and there were all sorts of legal issues, the Public Advocates Office and representing Maria. It was oh, it was yeah, there was a lot going on, but she never regained consciousness. When we founder, there was a number of detectives that want to put up their hand and say, I want to go and tell Joe, because we knew he was behind it. By this stage, we believe.
I'd want to tell Joe and tell Joe that she's still alive too.
That would have been that is exactly. So they are all these detectives wanting to be the one to say to Joe, Joe were founder, and she's alive, you know. But what we found out, so I will go back in a minute. But six months later she passes away, never agains consciousness, and on the day of her funeral, Joe ended his life. So but prior to that, Tanya, So the threesome, the third member, yeh, Tanya becomes a prosecution witness, and she became a prosecution witness to be honest, within days she realized, you know, because Joe was blaming her and saying, oh, she'd done it and anyway, So she became a prosecution witness and she was invaluable her information. But what had happened was her and Joe fell in lusting love whatever you want to call it. And the only way that they could that they Joe thought that they could be together was to get rid of Maria. So Joe orchestrated everything. He went and bought the balaclava for Tanya was the one that actually tried to strangle her, so she.
Was involved in the actual offense.
Yeah, completely, So her and Joe decide this is what they're going to do. So Joe goes and gets I don't know, let's say the Balaclavi, some tape, organizes a whole lot of things. But Tanya actually does the job. So he says, look, if you come around to the house at ten past seven tomorrow morning, I'll make sure the kids are in bed or whatever. And as she comes down the stairs, strangler and put her in the back of the boot killer. And you know, and I don't think they actually thought much after the strangling, and so Tanya was very complicit, and she says, that's what you know, this is what she did. The love scary.
You know, Look I I so many times, you know, someone disappears, someone's morth is it love lust, this or that? So many times and you would have seen it. I've seen that. It's just people that can't leave their partner and the So it's easier than chasing facing the shame of saying, look, I don't love you anymore and move it away from the relationship, or just I want to move on with my life end up killing their partners, and invariably the cases that I'm familiar with or personally involved in, it it's a husband that's got the new girlfriend and taken out of life insurance policy on the wife. And look, the wife has just disappeared or she drowned or something like that. But it's just it's callous and it just it just when we talk homicide, people often think there's, you know, there's this big conspiracy, it's people are planning and all that. Sometimes it's just for such a waste of a life, for something like that.
And it was just it's a cowards way out. As you say, well, I mean people have a fair you know, it was just a cowards way out. Why didn't he have, pardon me, the balls to go up to her and say, Maria, I actually I really liked he organized.
He went to the trouble organizing the threesome and getting that all sorted out. And then yeah, I didn't it's going to kill the woman he married to run off with the other lady.
It's just it's and you know, the sad I mean, there's a lot of sad things in this store. But another sad thing is that all Tanya wanted was to find somebody to care for her and to love, let's say, but she's prepared to murder for it, like I think, my god, but without tenure, we never ever would have got we'd never have got very far.
And then yeah, sometimes, and it's always hard these situations, but sometimes you've from a prosecution point of view, you've got to well, I can't get everyone. If you assist prosecution, then get whatever benefits come from that. To solve the case with Tanya, what was her sentence? Do you know what she was sentenced for?
I think twelve years and I know she's out now and hopefully she's leading, yes, and leading a good life. This my sound bras are, but she was actually quite a nice person. All she wanted was, you know, some love.
It's crazy, isn't it that the people the things that they do for those type of emotions. But Jesus Norell, there the two cases you've talked about a pretty pretty heavy stuff. And yeah, the involvement in it and finding bodies and just being involved in those type of investigations carry carry some trauma associated with it. And I want to I want to talk about your career that you and I think some of the articles I've seen you be quoted on that there's nothing to be ashamed of when you realize, look, I've had enough of this type of work. It's adding up and I can't take it any more, or I neither break. Do you want to tell us about your story?
I didn't realize it. It wasn't that easy. I fell over big time, and I wasn't expecting it. You know, you start to think that you're invincible, and you start to think a year, you know, I've had a bit on but maybe I'm just a bit tired. Like I didn't lose interest. I was going full bore until those seventeen hundred videos. That was in May of twenty twelve, when so all this has been building up obviously over the years. I've got no idea that I am very, very sick mentally. But you know, I had no idea. I just thought, you know, I do this stuff that you know now, and then it gets a bit a bit.
Rough and people closely noticed something was going on. You hit it problem.
We're pretty good, aren't we gary at hiding things? And that's exactly.
But I deny that allegation.
I thought you're mo but like I didn't know myself what was happening, So I don't know how other people could. But you know, I often look back and I think if somebody would have said to me, anybody, And this is why I want to talk about mental illness, about stress, post traumatic stress disorder, which is what I was diagnosed with. It is nothing to be ashamed of. It's just we've got to stop this stigma about mental illness because what happened to me. I watched all this is happening, and then I watched those seventeen hundred videos. And then a couple of days later, I was required. I was an informant in a court case. An informant like it's a committal. It's pretty important stuff, you know, evidences, witnesses and exhibits and all that sort of stuff. And I remember this particular morning, I've been feeling a bit tired. You know, I'm not sleeping well, and again you make excuses. I don't know what's going on. And so this particular morning, I'm trying to get this sixteen year old girl to come to court to give evidence against a father and a son who had raped her, and she was she wouldn't come. I had to get it at court, because if I don't get it at court, I don't have a case. I eventually get her there and she's in the witness box and she is being hammered by the defense, just hammered, and she was really just stressed. And I can remember thinking. The last thing I remember is thinking, pardon me, this is bullshit. The next thing I remember is being across the road at a coffee shop across the road from the court, and the court staff come over and they see me there and Noel, what are you doing here? And I remember thinking, I'm having a coffee and they said, Noell, the magistrate's looking for he prosecution defense. There's witnesses like what are you doing here? And the magistrate was filthy because I couldn't be found. And I remember thinking to myself, what am I doing here. I'm in the middle of a court case. I'm the informant and I'm in I can la la land in a coffee shop. Yeah, And I said, I'll come straight over gee. And I remember the prosecutor she was from the opp and she went not this to me, and she said, don't you ever do that to me again, because I'd humiliated her and she'd obviously been serrated. Oh yeah. And I went home that night and I remember thinking to myself, why was I in the coffee shop. I just couldn't work out anyway, what had happened was I had I found out later i'd lost twenty minutes. I had this, well, not blacked out as such, but I'd had an amnesia event where I just you know, I mean, I was functioning, I was walking across the road and all that, but my mind had just said, nah, enough. So that's when I thought, I think, maybe i'd better start doing something. There's something not right. And I held on for four months, think and I can do this, but nah. Anyway, I went to the doctor. And I remember leaving work the Friday night and I went to the doctor the Monday morning. I never went back. That was because I realized, I mean, it took me a long time to accept, because the doctor said to me, I've got a feeling you might have PTSD, and I actually said to him, what's that. I had no idea, But as he started to explain it, I remember I was thinking himself, Yep, I've felt that, Yep, I've done that, yep, yep. And it probably took me and I never went back because I was The psychologist said to me, Narel, if you go back, the next step is hospital because of that amnesia event I had, And so I really had to trust the professionals, and I did everything they said to try and get back to work. After a while, I started to think because I missed it. Oh my god, I still do. But yeah, but I thought, why would I go back. I never want to go to a psych hospital. That just frightened the life out of me. That was the wake up call I needed. I went on work cover, and I was so ashamed of the fact that I possibly because I wouldn't accept it, that I possibly had post traumatic stress disorder like a mental illness. I wasn't in a tyranny one that I made up all these excuses and I kept it from everyone, probably by my husband. He looking back, he said, there were things that weren't making sense because what I was doing was I was having terrible migraines. But also I had this my legs would shake in better of a night to the point where it will wake him up, like they'd shake, you know, really obvious. And I remember I couldn't work out, but my whole body was shaking, and I'm thinking, what's going on? And I remember I used to say, oh, you're snoring, so I'd go into the sphere room. Yeah. So when I look back, there were all these signs, but I just never put two and two together. But my anger gary like that anger. And when I look back, everything the doctor said was right. You know, it was almost like I felt my head was going to burst with anger. Like in the end, you know, I was banging the phone down at work and I was just completely losing control. And I had every time a job would come in. This is right at the end, just before I went to see the doctor. Every time a job would come into work. I got to the point where I was avoiding taking the calls because I just thought I can't do this anymore. I'd get terrible Diaryea, like I spent half the day in the toilet. Again. You can make all the excuses in the world, but I looking back, I did ignore the signs.
Yeah, I think a couple of things. And I've seen a lot of people I know in the police go off with stress and in different ways, different forms what you've described there. That type of thing I've had guests on here that I've described very similar type of things. I think we've policing. You're there to serve the public. You're there to help people. You're a protector, protect and serve that type of thing. I think it's in the police nature that you don't put your hand up ever and say, hey, I need a hand here or I'm not coping. So you're going to overcome that barrier. And then it's the pride aspect of it. You don't want to admit that the job's broken you. And sometimes you just need to take a step back. I've hit the wall sometimes. Yeah, I had a quick bounce back and I'd go, okay, all right, I was probably out of thoughts yesterday, but I'm ready for it now. I had Craig Simple, a good, hard working detective on the podcast, and he talked about post traumatic stress and he had a career. He was always in the thick of things, different things, and eventually it caught up with him, and not the same way that you talk about, but not dissimilar in that, Yeah, all of a sudden, it's just dawned on me, Hey I'm not ready for this. You'd put your hand up and actually go see the doctor and they explain what's going on. He made the point, and I think there's a lot to be said for this. He said the people he was seeing were a doctor, a psychologist, or whatever were saying. You know, the funny thing here is you could have addressed this ten years ago if you just acknowledged that back then, and you would have been able to return to work quite easily. But you let a build up till it it literally broke you and you fell off the cliff, and now the damage has been done and you can't go back there. So maybe that's and it's not just policing, like there's a lot of careers. I think there's a lot of careers and just society in itself. Everyone seems to be stressed these days for one reason or another. But maybe we've just got to factor that into policing more. And you have these recharges, like you know, we're working maybe a week off a year to go somewhere just to literally physically and mentally recharge and recalibrate, because I know what you described as a hard working detective. And then just when you've got nothing left, you've got to go to court. Like you just said, and I know those times I might have been on call all night, I've been up, i haven't slept for twenty four hours, and then okay, I've got to put a fresh suit on, I've got to walk in the court, and I've got to have my mind as sharp as possible. And it does, you know, it does where you're down. But I think it's interesting hearing people like yourself talk about it because obviously you're not shirking your responsibilities. You got in and have a go your whole career, and you can put your hand up and I think you touched on that too, that it's good to talk about these type of things.
You know. I think you're talking about having maybe a week off or whatever. How do we manage mental illness within the police, because there's so much of it. But I think what may have helped me would have been to have a sit twenty four to seven at every major like head office, let's say, you know, in broad Meadows in I don't know, Waverley.
But just cost effective too when you look at the payouts, yeah yeah.
And just to have somebody that you can ring and say, Geep, I actually dug up a body yesterday and I'm actually not managing too well. But to have them there and then rather than ring and that you know, we'll see in a couple of weeks. I just think we should have psychologists or psychiatrists and probably a psychologist at every twenty four hour station, or at least a couple so that there is an immediate an immediate response because and also maybe mandatory had once a month. I don't know, have.
I like the idea what you're saying, having someone there, like, yeah, there's times where you've seen something. Some of the situations you've described, of course it would help if you talked about them, horrendous things that you've seen and done. We had mandatory site testing in the I think in homicide. I was in there for twenty years. I think I avoided it for about fifteen years, and it was mandatory. And then someone said, have you been. I said, I've never been to other than police shootings where a site comes out to you at the scene, but I'd never been, and there was a sort of attitude about it. We've got to give. We're busy. I have not got time to go talk to this psychologist for an hour. I've got to prepare this brief I'm on this investigation, so it was almost like amongst ourselves we're just sort of laughing about it, whereas probably if we were more open and more honest, we go, well, it's probably not a bad idea because I think if you have someone to talk to it about it, it potentially could help. And I took a lot away from what Craig Semple said because he's a tough guy, like it just unbreakable and he broke, but he acknowledged that if I just did a bit of work on myself back then I could have circumvented the letting it build up to the way it did.
You know, it took me, I'd have to say, eighteen months before I actually accepted that I was sick. I fought it and fought it and thinking, I could you know, if I do everything that the professionals say, I'll be able to get back to work and all this sort of stuff. But the game changer for me was going to the Austin hospital. They had an outpatient a PTSD clinic, and that took me a while to get into. Isn't that sad because there were so many affected police, But that was a game changer. For me because there were you know, there was no hiding there. You know, you couldn't hide behind any sort of facade, which we do. But yeah, it was a game changer for me. And just one other thing. I just think it's important to keep an open mind. I remember work cover. I don't have a lot of good things to say about work cover in a lot of ways. But in another way, they realized that I wasn't able to go back to it. They sent me to twelve twelve psychologists or psychiatrists. I think what they were doing was getting somebody to say, she can go back to work on a temporary you know, like two days a week whatever. And you know what, every single one of her said, she'll never work again. But I forgot my trainer. Thought I was going to do what was our heading to Gary. See what happens.
I'm not hoping you're not having one of those last moments.
I have a lot to do.
You realize we're on my catch killers. It's a podcast. We're going light.
Yeah, But anyway, I'm just saying, you know, it took me eighteen months to really realize how sick I was. Oh, that's right to keep an open mind and so I went work, Cuver sent me to this. They said, I will send you to a vocational guidance counselor.
We did that at school.
Hello, and I'm thinking, oh, for facks sake, you know, what are they going to do? So but anyway, I thought, no, the professionals know, so I'll do what they say. So it went, and again it's a game changer because what we did was we sat at a desk and she said, tell me the things you really like, tell me the things you think you're good at. What are your skills? And you know what, I couldn't think of a skill like you know, when you're just so sick and you've done something for so long, you don't realize the skills you have because they're just taken for granted, or we taken for granted right very much.
So like my career ended literally overnight, and I'm thinking, what do I do? I catch killers? That's what I did. That was my job, that was my identity and all that. But then I think it's when you look at policing as a whole, there are so many skill sets that you've got, and I think, yeah, we've got to open their minds up and I joined police as a vacation. That was going to be my career. That was I didn't want to just have an experience there. I think policing should make itself more readily available to let people go in and out of policing. Yeah, like, work for ten years. I want to see change. I want to do something. I might go work in the building industry for five years and then ah, shit, that's tough. I'm going to come back to the police, but not come back to the police starting at the academy. I think we could with all benefit from that type of thing.
Yeah. Yeah, but you don't realize like I used to think, and you'd be the same. I'd think, Okay, so I can type up a search warrant, I can do an effort David, Yeah, I can do an interview. Well, what other world do I need to you know, I just couldn't think anyway. What this lady did was we sat down with what I liked, what I believe my skills were, and then she started to open up my mind about other things that I could do, and it just opened up a whole new world. You know. I did some we worked out that you may have guessed that I like talking bullshit.
That's not right, is it.
No, it's not bullshit, it's wrong, right, Okay, And I like, I don't know, let's say, taking people under the wing and sort of helping them or whatever. Anyway, so we worked out maybe I could do lecturing in investative techniques. So but this is two years down the track, but I did it, and I just opened up a whole new world. And you know, I lectured at TAFE with investative skills and because I realized I had them, and I can remember with the kids, i'd say to them at the end of every lesson, I'd say, if you know, I was a teacher, sort of, if you're really good and you do what I ask, at the end of every lesson, I'll give you a war story. And they loved it. They loved it. Anyway, that branched out into a whole lot of different things. And the only other thing I wanted to add was when I was sick and I was feeling a bit sorry for myself at home not working. I've always felt that I had the right sort of personality, and I certainly have the stories, but I didn't I was terrible at public speaking or just speaking anything. Other than a couple of girlfriends. I'm fine with that, but get me in front of a group. And this is before n MIT. And that's when I went to Postmasters and I thought, I want to learn some skills about public speaking, to try and get over that fear, of that anxiety. And it unleashed the beast and here I am.
And you've gone from this shy withdrawn personally and I was never with your Okay, you've also stepped in the world of podcasting.
Yeah, oh, lovely segue that, Gara.
This is I'm getting polish, like just a melia. Just just move the sorry from one to the other. What's the name of your podcast?
The police will understand. The name of my podcast is Noelle Fraser Interview. But be short. The short version is NFI. I've always wanted to use that because in policing we all know NFI means had me no fucking idea. So I have a couple of friends say, you can't do that, you can't name it that if you just watch me. So that's when I worked out, what could I have Norell Noreell Fraser Interviews. So yeah, NFI. But my podcast is really about exploring the human side and impact of crime. And there will be no surprise to you and your listeners that the impact of crime is what I feel so strongly about. And I give people a voice that normally wouldn't have a voice. And that's what I really like, victims of horrendous crimes that they've never gone to the police about, or they just want to tell their story. So yeah, so, as you said the other day, isn't that funny too? Former detectives now podcasters.
Well, it's different, a different set of skill, but it still is sitting listening and what podcasting has taught me or to carry on from what you have to do when you're interviewing suspects, you've got to listen to what they're saying. It's a different form of communication. But yeah, I enjoy it. I see anything that we're doing. When two cops are sitting down talking on the podcast, I think it gives a human side to what policing is. So you're not just looking at that's a cranky detective, or there's that uniform person or whatever. So I think there's benefits there. People for whatever reason, find crime fascinating. Yeah, I quite enjoy it. And if people ask me. What I'm doing now, I'm doing podcasting or writing or whatever. What I'm most proud about is letting people like yourself tell their story on this Like I'm allowing people to share their stories. And yeah, it's not just the good guys. We have the bad guys. We've had all sorts of eye catch killers. So yeah, good luck with it because it is fun and you learn as you how along. You embarrass yourself quite a few times, and I'm sure I'll embarrass myself down the track, but I try to always be professional. That was my radio voice, which I.
Haven't really got interessed.
Hey, guys, have you ever wondered what goes on behind the headlines of a gang war or shooting? Then you need to listen to crim City. Join crime reporters Mark Murray and Josh Hamrahan as they uncover the details of crimes unfolding on Sydney streets and share the stories that don't make the papers. The latest season of crim City is out now. Listen early and ad free on crime x plus on Apple podcast Today. Hey, I want to ask I want to ask this question women in policing, And I say this, there's been a lot of progress in policing. I talk New South Wales, but I know the culture of other police organizations. By nature, it's a blokey, bloky environment. And I sometimes hear girls say I wouldn't mind joining the police, But what's it like being a policewoman. Tell us your thoughts on women in policing, your experience.
It's pretty tough. It is a man's world, absolutely, But also I will always go back to I think the best combination on a div van is a policeman and a policewoman. I feel like whether this is a politically correct or incorrect, I don't know, but I think generally the man is stronger physically and I think as a female we have emotional strength, emotional intelligence, and I'm not saying men don't, but I think combined it's a pretty damn good team.
Let me say, I agree with you and nerellso if you get in the trouble, we're both going down for this. But I think what you said is it's sensible. That's sensible, and I always like to have that combination of female on the strikeforce I was working on because they could do stuff that the men couldn't.
But yeah, yeah, exactly a year. It's tough, but yeah, you know, I've been I've been in some horrendous situations. I think you've got to accept that there's good and there's bad. Policing isn't all great and fun, you know. Boy, we haven't touched on that, but due there's some funny stuff goes on, isn't there. But but I think you know, I've been sexually assaulted by a colleague. I've had a photo taken up my skirt where it actually showed my the cotton gusset in my pantyhose like that's you know, and it was put up on the board. You know, this is phrases, you know, I don't know, hundies or whatever. One of the worst things I ever experienced was it was a night shift and I was brand new and we were all sitting around having our dinner like this is at three o'clock in the morning or something. Everyone gets called in and we have our dinner, and now come the porno movies like, oh my god, and I.
Can't I would imagine you'd be the any female police officer, probably.
Absolutely, but they're there. You know, they're terrible things.
Well, we had a good chat about this the other day when we were talking and you said, yeah, you could make a complain about that, but you loved your career and yeah, you might then be ostracized or bullied and all that. And we're talking a generation back, like it's changed now. I think there's practices and procedures in there now. But what you were saying, I've heard so many policewomen that I respect say the same thing. They've made it through and they had to compromise a little bit and not make an issue. Yeah, they're strength in that. Like it gets to the point where you've shown them to be the idiots. But you also made the point and I probably should let you make the point because you wanted to emphasize this when I said, is it all right if we talk about this that for all the bad, there's what you said, like, I don't want everyone to think it's just misogynistic with the police. There's some really good people there.
Oh, and the good that you do this is what I mean. You've got to weigh it up. You know, in any career, like you know, you're hear of sexual harassment in every workplace known to man. The police are no different. And you know I've been harassed in other careers as well, like as a secretary. But it's it's something that it is getting better and it need to mind you. But and I do agree with you, Gary that if I would have said something, I know my career would have been over. I would have been it would have completely, it would have finished. And I didn't want it to finish because I just thought there was so many good things that I could do, and like, who's going to hold a rape victim's hand and take a statement from of the time not there. I'm not saying I'm the only one that did it, but you know that's.
What I mean, Like, you valued your career and you wanted to progress in the in the career and.
The fulfillment that you get from helping people. Yeah, there's some dickheads, you know, there's a few dickheads, but in general are the policemen and we're talking about policemen. The policemen I worked with were just magnificent men, you know, And there's always a couple of rotten apples. Police are no different.
Well, I was saying it to you when we're chatting, and I've said that here before. I think in policing, you get exposed to the best people you'll ever meet, inspirational people, and you get also exposed to some of the most And i'm talking to police, I'm not talking the croxy you get. Some people are very very uninspiring. But I want that message to get across when I speak to a successful police woman like yourself, that women can have a career in policing, and yes they might be confronted with things, but it's getting better. And I saw, which I was quite pleased, the men in the police were self regulating the other dickhead men that were harassing women and pulling them aside and saying that's not on. And so I think the culture is changing, even though it is by the nature of policing it's a blokey environment and that probably always will be, but this is getting a bit better.
But also Gary, if you go into policing and not accepting that it's a blokey environment, you can be a bit naive. You're right, you're right, And I think to myself, you've got to be pretty tough in some ways and be strong. And I would never have classed myself as strong, but maybe I am. Because it was just like, you know what, that's not going to beat me up.
Well, you know, there's strength in different times, the different types of strength. We know the big bloke at six foot six that you send him in anywhere you can go through the door. But I also seen some women that I call the toughest cops because they're just mentally tough and I'm buckling under the pressure and they're standing there. So strength comes in comes in many ways. Just sort of wrapping it up, would you recommend policing as a creer for people like you've been through it? God, Yes, I love it when ex.
Cops say that, yeah, because it's given me. I don't know where to start, absolutely, but what I would say is that I think just make sure that you check in with a professional, with a psychologist, I don't know, maybe once a month, but take care of your mental health, because isn't it funny We take care of our physical health. You know, you've got to be fit and you know, all the right food groups and all that sort of stuff, But when it comes to mental health, there's very few of us that do anything about.
Put time into to keep that.
So I would just say just to you know, make sure you attend to your mental health, well you do your physical health, and you know, it's a very very rewarding, fulfilling, exciting career.
So and I like that, and I like the fact you look back with fond memories. Despite what you've seen and gone through, you're looking back and fond memories. And it saddens me that all police, and I think across the nation that's not just New South Wales or Victoria, are struggling to get people in policing. And if you just understood the world that you can see in there, it will open your eyes up and you will do things that you never thought you could do. And it's sad that that messaging isn't getting out the type of career that policing can be. If you embrace it, you can make a difference and you can get rewarded in ways that you never never expected to be rewarded. And this is two of us sitting here. I got run out of the cops and you went off from the cops because the damage policing had done. And we're still sitting here saying we loved every moment of it. So you're I thank you. At the start of the podcast, I told you. I wasn't sure. I thank you at the end of the podcast for your service, but it comes across in spades how much passion you had for your job, enjoyment, respect, empathy, all the important stuff and you're still standing here and having laugh So well done.
Congratulations, Thanks for having me Gary, It's been a pleasure.
Enjoyed it. Thanks Sarah, thank you well morell is certainly a bubbly, bubbly personality, and I think she's got a great personality for policing, and it just came across so abundantly clear. Despite the heavy jobs that she was working on them, the things she had to face or do, she still cared and had empathy for the victims. And she's a lot of fun. I know policing took its toll on her, but the fact that she still looks back with fond memories, I think she was a real asset to policing and full credit to her