The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective sy a side of life the average persons never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two of my chat with Veronica Gory, an Indigenous woman who joined the police to make a difference, but found she was fighting an organization embedded with racism and discrimination. Veronica, welcome back, Thank you. Okay, I'm from the notes out on this one. Where what are we going to yarn about? And where's this going to take us?

The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective sy a side of life the average persons never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two of my chat with Veronica Gory, an Indigenous woman who joined the police to make a difference, but found she was fighting an organization embedded with racism and discrimination. Veronica, welcome back, Thank you. Okay, I'm from the notes out on this one. Where what are we going to yarn about? And where's this going to take us?

So I think, prior to putting the headphones on or getting being recorded, we're talking about. What were we talking about.

So I think, prior to putting the headphones on or getting being recorded, we're talking about. What were we talking about.

We were talking about cases that don't get the attention and the media, the media, the lack of interest.

We were talking about cases that don't get the attention and the media, the media, the lack of interest.

That's right.

That's right.

Yeah, so when I think I brought it up earlier, when victims black fellows don't make good victims to police because they're so used to locking us up. And so when we do report matters, on the off chance that we do report matters, and for example, a young Abrish woman in Western Australia walked into a police station and wanted to take a domestic violence order out on her partner. Brave, very brave, because we don't turn to police for help. But she'd obviously have been subjected to so much that she had to like the last resort and she died in custody. They locked her up and she ended up dying custody, killed in custody. Yeah, so when we have you just look at the media. They play a big part in this as well. They don't report matters whereby abriginal people or the victims, or you don't see mainstream media about the abriaginal dressing custodies.

Yeah, so when I think I brought it up earlier, when victims black fellows don't make good victims to police because they're so used to locking us up. And so when we do report matters, on the off chance that we do report matters, and for example, a young Abrish woman in Western Australia walked into a police station and wanted to take a domestic violence order out on her partner. Brave, very brave, because we don't turn to police for help. But she'd obviously have been subjected to so much that she had to like the last resort and she died in custody. They locked her up and she ended up dying custody, killed in custody. Yeah, so when we have you just look at the media. They play a big part in this as well. They don't report matters whereby abriginal people or the victims, or you don't see mainstream media about the abriaginal dressing custodies.

You see it on an I t V, SBS or the A B C. Where you're quite often preaching to the converted. But I know when I was in the cops and the lack of interest in that if I was investigating a murder with an Indigenous person in it from from the media because it's it doesn't sell papers or whatever. And I see it now that I'm in the media. It's hard to get people interested in stories. And I wonder what that's about. I often think, is it because well, that's happened to an Indigenous person, It's not going to happen to us because we're white. What do you why do you think there's a lack of interest from the from the media in indigenous matters like that.

You see it on an I t V, SBS or the A B C. Where you're quite often preaching to the converted. But I know when I was in the cops and the lack of interest in that if I was investigating a murder with an Indigenous person in it from from the media because it's it doesn't sell papers or whatever. And I see it now that I'm in the media. It's hard to get people interested in stories. And I wonder what that's about. I often think, is it because well, that's happened to an Indigenous person, It's not going to happen to us because we're white. What do you why do you think there's a lack of interest from the from the media in indigenous matters like that.

I just think they don't give a fuck a about the traditional owners of the country that they're you know of this country and the stolen lands that they're now living on. Don't give a fuck about us. So, you know, they're still you know, like we've intergenerational trauma. They're still carrying the the colonizers.

I just think they don't give a fuck a about the traditional owners of the country that they're you know of this country and the stolen lands that they're now living on. Don't give a fuck about us. So, you know, they're still you know, like we've intergenerational trauma. They're still carrying the the colonizers.

You know, we're carrying the attitude. You guys are carrying the trauma. We're carrying the attitude.

You know, we're carrying the attitude. You guys are carrying the trauma. We're carrying the attitude.

Is that what you're saying, Yeah, they don't care about us, like our lives don't matter. You know, it's just one less black beatlet to deal with in this country. You know, there's where's the outrage?

Is that what you're saying, Yeah, they don't care about us, like our lives don't matter. You know, it's just one less black beatlet to deal with in this country. You know, there's where's the outrage?

How can that be changed?

How can that be changed?

I don't I don't have all the answers. I think with the families, I can say, keep pressing a lot with the media, keep their stories, keep the you know, their lives, their lives do matter. Your family members matter, Your grief matters. And that's the thing with abishinal families. Almost every Abershall family has been affected by a deaf and custody and we're having death and custodies all over this country. And as a community, we grieve for the families, and we may not have met them, we grieve, we cry with this family. And then what happens with that family They bury their loved one, and then the coronial inquest begins and then the family is subjected to visions of the very last moments they loved one was a lower, the last breath they loved one took. And then never usually successful outcomes, which is what I mentioned before Abershare people, we never usually have happy endings, which and that's what I meant by that. And then whilst we go with that family we're all hearing about it through our networks, which is like cream MA, NATV, not mainstream media. There'll be another different custody. So it's like as Aboriginal people were always grieving and it's every day we're fighting the system, and the justice system is set up to harm our people, my people. You know, if they don't kill us, they're locking us up, putting his way out aside, out of mind, you know. And you talk about Northern Territory again, you've got people getting Lemphy sentences up there for unlicensed driving like fuck may like you know, like if a non Indigenous person commits what is deemed to be you know, a serious crime, an indictable offense, whereby it's they've harmed a person, they're getting less less and like as a black father, it's like where we've been made examples of. It's like don't drive unlicensed you're going and you know what, it's just.

I don't I don't have all the answers. I think with the families, I can say, keep pressing a lot with the media, keep their stories, keep the you know, their lives, their lives do matter. Your family members matter, Your grief matters. And that's the thing with abishinal families. Almost every Abershall family has been affected by a deaf and custody and we're having death and custodies all over this country. And as a community, we grieve for the families, and we may not have met them, we grieve, we cry with this family. And then what happens with that family They bury their loved one, and then the coronial inquest begins and then the family is subjected to visions of the very last moments they loved one was a lower, the last breath they loved one took. And then never usually successful outcomes, which is what I mentioned before Abershare people, we never usually have happy endings, which and that's what I meant by that. And then whilst we go with that family we're all hearing about it through our networks, which is like cream MA, NATV, not mainstream media. There'll be another different custody. So it's like as Aboriginal people were always grieving and it's every day we're fighting the system, and the justice system is set up to harm our people, my people. You know, if they don't kill us, they're locking us up, putting his way out aside, out of mind, you know. And you talk about Northern Territory again, you've got people getting Lemphy sentences up there for unlicensed driving like fuck may like you know, like if a non Indigenous person commits what is deemed to be you know, a serious crime, an indictable offense, whereby it's they've harmed a person, they're getting less less and like as a black father, it's like where we've been made examples of. It's like don't drive unlicensed you're going and you know what, it's just.

I hear what you're saying. I understand what you're saying. If I play the devil's advocate here and say, well, you know, if you if you do the crime, you should do that, do the time.

I hear what you're saying. I understand what you're saying. If I play the devil's advocate here and say, well, you know, if you if you do the crime, you should do that, do the time.

Well here's who's crime is it?

Well here's who's crime is it?

So it's white man's crime.

So it's white man's crime.

Okay, so then it's not our crime. Okay, So then you're breaking it and breaking it down to that. I know I've had conversations with people saying that when kids are young kids and your talk Northern Territory and they're being locked up from an early age, it's virtually their their direction in life has been stamped by that by that direction in that they've got such a history, criminal history by the time they're an adult. If they commit an offense going inside, what.

Okay, so then it's not our crime. Okay, So then you're breaking it and breaking it down to that. I know I've had conversations with people saying that when kids are young kids and your talk Northern Territory and they're being locked up from an early age, it's virtually their their direction in life has been stamped by that by that direction in that they've got such a history, criminal history by the time they're an adult. If they commit an offense going inside, what.

Hope do they have as an adult? You know, they carry that criminal history, white man's criminal history into the adulthood. What chance of getting a job and housing? And do they have they have nothing?

Hope do they have as an adult? You know, they carry that criminal history, white man's criminal history into the adulthood. What chance of getting a job and housing? And do they have they have nothing?

Do you see a better way of are going off track? A better way of dealing with I talk here Indigenous kids.

Do you see a better way of are going off track? A better way of dealing with I talk here Indigenous kids.

That's a yeah, yeah, stop locking them mart and giving back to the families. These kids belong at home, not in cages. There's another thing I wanted to talk about. When it's gone, no, let's ask the next question. It might come back.

That's a yeah, yeah, stop locking them mart and giving back to the families. These kids belong at home, not in cages. There's another thing I wanted to talk about. When it's gone, no, let's ask the next question. It might come back.

Yeah, maybe I haven't got a question.

Yeah, maybe I haven't got a question.

Okay, now, oh Devil's advocate.

Okay, now, oh Devil's advocate.

No, I'm saying that people might say, well, if they're committing crimes. Yeah, isn't the answer to lock them up? And I'm saying that.

No, I'm saying that people might say, well, if they're committing crimes. Yeah, isn't the answer to lock them up? And I'm saying that.

Yeah, So as an abolitionist, I'm moving away from the language of, you know, the justice system and the very white justice system, and so crimes, white crime, okay, because you've got to remember policing. The first police in this country were white convicts. Yeah, so it comes from a criminal aspect anyway, Well, the white man's criminal aspect. To colonization, we had no police here. There was no need for police. We had our own ways of dealing with matters, which we still do today.

Yeah, So as an abolitionist, I'm moving away from the language of, you know, the justice system and the very white justice system, and so crimes, white crime, okay, because you've got to remember policing. The first police in this country were white convicts. Yeah, so it comes from a criminal aspect anyway, Well, the white man's criminal aspect. To colonization, we had no police here. There was no need for police. We had our own ways of dealing with matters, which we still do today.

Give us an example of that. It's something that people have understand.

Give us an example of that. It's something that people have understand.

So, for example, if there's conflict in the family or in the community, the first people we call is our family members, and we sort it out that way through communication, sitting down and having yarns sorting it out. We don't call cops because the loclihood of cops sort it out is very minimal. But also cops turn up after the harm is done. Anyway, what is the point of their presence. It's already got that the harm's being done, We've already sorted it out. I want to go back to when I was a police officer. I went to a again sorry trigger warning a suicide aberginal family and the way we grieve. The neighbors called, I just come from the job with the CVIL side and as we're leaving, another job come through the radio and it was CO two or any unit Code two light and sirens. Quite urgent to attend the same address because there was a there was an altercation of people being loud and the disturbances and all this stuff and fighting going on, and I had to get on the radio and say stand down because that's their grieving. Even when it's grieving, it's perceived to be a crime, white.

So, for example, if there's conflict in the family or in the community, the first people we call is our family members, and we sort it out that way through communication, sitting down and having yarns sorting it out. We don't call cops because the loclihood of cops sort it out is very minimal. But also cops turn up after the harm is done. Anyway, what is the point of their presence. It's already got that the harm's being done, We've already sorted it out. I want to go back to when I was a police officer. I went to a again sorry trigger warning a suicide aberginal family and the way we grieve. The neighbors called, I just come from the job with the CVIL side and as we're leaving, another job come through the radio and it was CO two or any unit Code two light and sirens. Quite urgent to attend the same address because there was a there was an altercation of people being loud and the disturbances and all this stuff and fighting going on, and I had to get on the radio and say stand down because that's their grieving. Even when it's grieving, it's perceived to be a crime, white.

Crime because it's loud, and.

Crime because it's loud, and.

That's the way we grieve. That's the way we grieve.

That's the way we grieve. That's the way we grieve.

Okay, yep, Little little things like that.

Okay, yep, Little little things like that.

Yeah, And like those things weren't taught in the academy. Another thing that wasn't taught in the academy academy when I was there was that, And which I know they're doing right now is they're separating female identifying recruits from the male identifying recruits, and they're telling the females what to expect when they're out there. You're going to be preyed upon by the males.

Yeah, And like those things weren't taught in the academy. Another thing that wasn't taught in the academy academy when I was there was that, And which I know they're doing right now is they're separating female identifying recruits from the male identifying recruits, and they're telling the females what to expect when they're out there. You're going to be preyed upon by the males.

As in the male cops.

As in the male cops.

Yes, yes, yep, yes.

Yes, yes, yep, yes.

Did you experience that? Yes? In what form? And how did you deal with it?

Did you experience that? Yes? In what form? And how did you deal with it?

So I went to a party expecting to have a good time and I was sexually assaulted and then stalked afterwards for that very same officer.

So I went to a party expecting to have a good time and I was sexually assaulted and then stalked afterwards for that very same officer.

And in terms of the sexual assault, did you complain or what was it?

And in terms of the sexual assault, did you complain or what was it?

I knew. I knew from being on the inside and being a black collar, the complaint wouldn't have went anywhere.

I knew. I knew from being on the inside and being a black collar, the complaint wouldn't have went anywhere.

No one step in, no one.

No one step in, no one.

Yeah. My partner at the time dragged me away because I feed for my safety that that night. Yeah, she thought I was going to be gang raped, which is quite common, which people I know, you kin'd of go on your air. No, No, I'm group sex, yeah, gang rape.

Yeah. My partner at the time dragged me away because I feed for my safety that that night. Yeah, she thought I was going to be gang raped, which is quite common, which people I know, you kin'd of go on your air. No, No, I'm group sex, yeah, gang rape.

I'm sitting here and thinking.

I'm sitting here and thinking.

I'm bringing it all out. I've got no filters.

I'm bringing it all out. I've got no filters.

So the whole thing on here on the podcast I Catch Killers. We want to hear your side of things. Why I'm looking pensive there, I'm thinking, fuck, if I got a hint of that, I would knock the person out. If there was a cop doing that to a female police officer, I can't believe. I'm shocked that people didn't stand up or.

So the whole thing on here on the podcast I Catch Killers. We want to hear your side of things. Why I'm looking pensive there, I'm thinking, fuck, if I got a hint of that, I would knock the person out. If there was a cop doing that to a female police officer, I can't believe. I'm shocked that people didn't stand up or.

Yeah, only one person stood up for me, and that was my partner, and he was trying to convince me to put in a complaint, but I was too scared. And then, and that's another thing. When I say I was complicit, it means I did a lot of the stuff that other cops did. I caused harm, I arrested people. I had the highest restaurant in the district, and I had to do that. I had to work ten times harder than the white males that were in my squad.

Yeah, only one person stood up for me, and that was my partner, and he was trying to convince me to put in a complaint, but I was too scared. And then, and that's another thing. When I say I was complicit, it means I did a lot of the stuff that other cops did. I caused harm, I arrested people. I had the highest restaurant in the district, and I had to do that. I had to work ten times harder than the white males that were in my squad.

What was driving you to do that?

What was driving you to do that?

I had to prove to them that I was just a school if not better than them. I owned my spot in this squad shamingly like shame. You know, I regret it now, Like if I go back to Queen's Lane and apologize every person I've ever arrested, or every person's that was loaded up because they gave him attitude, you know, cops.

I had to prove to them that I was just a school if not better than them. I owned my spot in this squad shamingly like shame. You know, I regret it now, Like if I go back to Queen's Lane and apologize every person I've ever arrested, or every person's that was loaded up because they gave him attitude, you know, cops.

Loaded what and we're talking here?

Loaded what and we're talking here?

Oh sorry, here we go, please talk. Sorry. Trying to move away from but I keep coming back to it. So loading up if you're deemed to be a smart ass, and someone like black fellows, who we know are rites, when when cops pull you over as a black fellow. When they say, oh, we're just pulled over to do a random breath test. Random, it's not random. We know why we're getting pulled over because we're black and we're different to them. But what were we talking about just before?

Oh sorry, here we go, please talk. Sorry. Trying to move away from but I keep coming back to it. So loading up if you're deemed to be a smart ass, and someone like black fellows, who we know are rites, when when cops pull you over as a black fellow. When they say, oh, we're just pulled over to do a random breath test. Random, it's not random. We know why we're getting pulled over because we're black and we're different to them. But what were we talking about just before?

You were talking about loading someone up on which.

You were talking about loading someone up on which.

Yeah, so if we're deemed it as young kids, Aboriginal people, we've been due to twelve Aboriginal legal services. They give out, you know, little cards. Know you're right. So even as a ten year old kid, I knew my rights. If pulled over or intercept it'll stop by police. So we know our rights. We know what how much information you were required to give to police, and know more well you deemed to be a smart ass. And even as an adult they or a child, they'll load you up, obstruct police, public nuisance.

Yeah, so if we're deemed it as young kids, Aboriginal people, we've been due to twelve Aboriginal legal services. They give out, you know, little cards. Know you're right. So even as a ten year old kid, I knew my rights. If pulled over or intercept it'll stop by police. So we know our rights. We know what how much information you were required to give to police, and know more well you deemed to be a smart ass. And even as an adult they or a child, they'll load you up, obstruct police, public nuisance.

Okay, so they load you up.

Okay, so they load you up.

With charges and enter and therefore you're entered into the justice system which is also racist.

With charges and enter and therefore you're entered into the justice system which is also racist.

And that that that was your experience, and you were saying that you were part part of it when you're in there, Yeah, I was complicit in that. How does that make you feel? There?

And that that that was your experience, and you were saying that you were part part of it when you're in there, Yeah, I was complicit in that. How does that make you feel? There?

Ship very shut, you know, very very short it at that.

Ship very shut, you know, very very short it at that.

But it's so you're talking about like a pretty horrible culture in the police. And I can sit here and say I'm a policeman too, and I know there was good parts and bad parts about the culture of police.

But it's so you're talking about like a pretty horrible culture in the police. And I can sit here and say I'm a policeman too, and I know there was good parts and bad parts about the culture of police.

What parts did you have?

What parts did you have?

I had? Well, piss ups.

I had? Well, piss ups.

No, I went through that stage and it nearly killed me. And I felt like leaving the cops when it was drinking every afternoon then yeah.

No, I went through that stage and it nearly killed me. And I felt like leaving the cops when it was drinking every afternoon then yeah.

Yeah, and that's the thing.

Yeah, and that's the thing.

So like I started in a squad, then yeah, it was I'm not critical of the people, it was just the way of the land culture. Yeah. So we work hard and we drink hard. Son, that's a big slap on the back. Here, you have another beer.

So like I started in a squad, then yeah, it was I'm not critical of the people, it was just the way of the land culture. Yeah. So we work hard and we drink hard. Son, that's a big slap on the back. Here, you have another beer.

And if you don't. So every for the listeners and the viewers, every police station, every squad has their own bar, the supplies apple, supplies of alcohol. And it would be normal for me and for other other police that did ten pm to six am shifts to have a drink at six o'clock in the morning, seven o'clock in the morning before you went home half a strove home pissed, you know, I do know, no, Yeah, So, and what the point is I'm trying to make is that if you didn't do that, which is what which was part of the reason why I was forced that I left Queensound police. Further north you go up to Queensland, by the way, the more racist that gets. They've never worked with a nabritural police officer before, and they were like what the fuck. Yeah, and if you're not involved in the social bars and the piss up at the end of the shifts, then you're ostracized. I had a family to go home too. Yeah, I didn't want to do that anymore.

And if you don't. So every for the listeners and the viewers, every police station, every squad has their own bar, the supplies apple, supplies of alcohol. And it would be normal for me and for other other police that did ten pm to six am shifts to have a drink at six o'clock in the morning, seven o'clock in the morning before you went home half a strove home pissed, you know, I do know, no, Yeah, So, and what the point is I'm trying to make is that if you didn't do that, which is what which was part of the reason why I was forced that I left Queensound police. Further north you go up to Queensland, by the way, the more racist that gets. They've never worked with a nabritural police officer before, and they were like what the fuck. Yeah, and if you're not involved in the social bars and the piss up at the end of the shifts, then you're ostracized. I had a family to go home too. Yeah, I didn't want to do that anymore.

Now I understand what you say. And there was a culture, and I think it's been acknowledged that there was a drinking culture in police in Queensland. I've been up there doing jobs up there, and yeah, the bars in the police station like we didn't have that in New South Wales or not official bars, the curtains under under the table. Not not not these days, I've got to say not. I've been out for four or five years. But not like it used to be. Like we could do. You could sit around in detective's office and bring in a cart and the beer and sit there and happily have a drink at the end of the day. That's certainly not not what I experienced prior to leaving the cops, So I suggest some of it's changed, but it is a tough environment.

Now I understand what you say. And there was a culture, and I think it's been acknowledged that there was a drinking culture in police in Queensland. I've been up there doing jobs up there, and yeah, the bars in the police station like we didn't have that in New South Wales or not official bars, the curtains under under the table. Not not not these days, I've got to say not. I've been out for four or five years. But not like it used to be. Like we could do. You could sit around in detective's office and bring in a cart and the beer and sit there and happily have a drink at the end of the day. That's certainly not not what I experienced prior to leaving the cops, So I suggest some of it's changed, but it is a tough environment.

Sorry, I'm smiling because I don't believe you.

Sorry, I'm smiling because I don't believe you.

But give me something, just tells me.

But give me something, just tells me.

Right, you've still got mates in a job and you're protecting.

Right, you've still got mates in a job and you're protecting.

Let me let me say this.

Let me let me say this.

Since I left the police, I'm allowed to associate with police because i'm this yeah, notorious, notorious criminal.

Since I left the police, I'm allowed to associate with police because i'm this yeah, notorious, notorious criminal.

Yeah, which is which is what I wanted to talk to you about. They've gone after you. Hey, well they've gone after you. You're fucked up. You're different to them, You're freaking you're different breeds, so they'll find something on you, and they found it.

Yeah, which is which is what I wanted to talk to you about. They've gone after you. Hey, well they've gone after you. You're fucked up. You're different to them, You're freaking you're different breeds, so they'll find something on you, and they found it.

Look, I don't want to say. I think the fact that I was charged on a Friday before I met the Parliamentary Committee on a Monday up at Barrable might say something. Yeah, maybe it was just a coincidence that it was urgent to charge me on the Friday before I speak to the parliament group on the Monday, But who knows.

Look, I don't want to say. I think the fact that I was charged on a Friday before I met the Parliamentary Committee on a Monday up at Barrable might say something. Yeah, maybe it was just a coincidence that it was urgent to charge me on the Friday before I speak to the parliament group on the Monday, But who knows.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Anyway, You're good, You're good. They should put two cops in here because you're trying to turn this into your podcast.

Anyway, You're good, You're good. They should put two cops in here because you're trying to turn this into your podcast.

Oh now do I take over?

Oh now do I take over?

Welcome to another episode of The Vices Killersted Veronica Gory.

Welcome to another episode of The Vices Killersted Veronica Gory.

Here we go in the cops.

Here we go in the cops.

You would have had some fun times in the cops, some funny incident. We've got that dark humit.

You would have had some fun times in the cops, some funny incident. We've got that dark humit.

Yeah, yeah, like the dark humor was I had a double fatal and sitting in the morgue.

Yeah, yeah, like the dark humor was I had a double fatal and sitting in the morgue.

Okay, this is dark. Okay, sorry, I've got real.

Okay, this is dark. Okay, sorry, I've got real.

Dark hair, and I'm busting the door pay and I'm working with a first year Connie, and so like, as an aboriginal person, I believe in ghosts, marches, I call him and so I've made him stand at the door with my door opened while on paying. Another time, the same first year Connie went to the hospital someone had passed away and I had a and I've walked over and it's come undone and the hose was just like a sprinkler, like they're just going around and just like pissed, flying and flying around, and so I was absolutely saturated. And someone's piss.

Dark hair, and I'm busting the door pay and I'm working with a first year Connie, and so like, as an aboriginal person, I believe in ghosts, marches, I call him and so I've made him stand at the door with my door opened while on paying. Another time, the same first year Connie went to the hospital someone had passed away and I had a and I've walked over and it's come undone and the hose was just like a sprinkler, like they're just going around and just like pissed, flying and flying around, and so I was absolutely saturated. And someone's piss.

That's a nice day at work, isn't it. Okay?

That's a nice day at work, isn't it. Okay?

What are you?

What are you?

What are you most proud of in the cops? Like you left, God, you're a hard one I left, but there was there would have been something good.

What are you most proud of in the cops? Like you left, God, you're a hard one I left, but there was there would have been something good.

Well, you've already told the stuff.

Well, you've already told the stuff.

There's stuff where you've gone to the community and they could identify with you, and you could you could get Uncle Harry down off the off the roof and stuff like that.

There's stuff where you've gone to the community and they could identify with you, and you could you could get Uncle Harry down off the off the roof and stuff like that.

So you must have felt like you.

So you must have felt like you.

Made some difference. You stay there for ten years, you're even very stupid, or you were getting something from the job.

Made some difference. You stay there for ten years, you're even very stupid, or you were getting something from the job.

Time went really quick, and you think you'll know this when you're in the job. Time goes really quick, and before you know it's ten years, twenty years. I had a lot of good times with my partner, who was also aboriginal as well. So if you can imagine two black fellows with deadly sense of humors, well, we just laughed our way through the shifts and it made the shifts go quicker. Yeah, so I did have, you know, a few good times and have good laughs. After leaving him and then going sounds like I was in a relationship with him, but it.

Time went really quick, and you think you'll know this when you're in the job. Time goes really quick, and before you know it's ten years, twenty years. I had a lot of good times with my partner, who was also aboriginal as well. So if you can imagine two black fellows with deadly sense of humors, well, we just laughed our way through the shifts and it made the shifts go quicker. Yeah, so I did have, you know, a few good times and have good laughs. After leaving him and then going sounds like I was in a relationship with him, but it.

Felt like it, right, you can tell us, no, I wasn't oka. He was happily married, yeah, okay.

Felt like it, right, you can tell us, no, I wasn't oka. He was happily married, yeah, okay.

And yeah, and I used to go out socially with him and his wife would pick us up, if not his wife. It was the blue light tax here.

And yeah, and I used to go out socially with him and his wife would pick us up, if not his wife. It was the blue light tax here.

Yeah, okay, spoken about that. I don't think people are going to get shocked of that, especially in the country town. Or yeah, need a left time.

Yeah, okay, spoken about that. I don't think people are going to get shocked of that, especially in the country town. Or yeah, need a left time.

Yeah, yeah, so I did have a few good times, but the bad times outweighed bad times.

Yeah, yeah, so I did have a few good times, but the bad times outweighed bad times.

And yeah, so you started fresh faced, going to make a difference ten years when you walked out, did you feel like you made any difference? Was there anything that yeah made it worthwhile?

And yeah, so you started fresh faced, going to make a difference ten years when you walked out, did you feel like you made any difference? Was there anything that yeah made it worthwhile?

No? Okay, my presence in the police did not make any impact to my community, to anyone. Really, I don't think anyone learned anything from me. In fact, I was told by what someone in tactical crime that you hated Aboriginal people and you hated women. Yeah, women should have been a job and hence we didn't really have a good contract.

No? Okay, my presence in the police did not make any impact to my community, to anyone. Really, I don't think anyone learned anything from me. In fact, I was told by what someone in tactical crime that you hated Aboriginal people and you hated women. Yeah, women should have been a job and hence we didn't really have a good contract.

Where did you take the conversation from that?

Where did you take the conversation from that?

Who cares? I hate you too? Yeah?

Who cares? I hate you too? Yeah?

Okay, good response.

Okay, good response.

Yeah, like it's just water off for ducks back. But but then I take it home, you know, like what going home crying?

Yeah, like it's just water off for ducks back. But but then I take it home, you know, like what going home crying?

Yeah? You know what about the we talk the justice system that you don't even like the term the justice system, but I talk courts and how confronting it is for an Aboriginal person to be put before the courts, because I've seen it in various forms. It's something that's courts intimidating for anyone. For Aboriginal people, the way they look at courts, what what's the feeling there? You would have seen it terrifying. Yeah, especially like.

Yeah? You know what about the we talk the justice system that you don't even like the term the justice system, but I talk courts and how confronting it is for an Aboriginal person to be put before the courts, because I've seen it in various forms. It's something that's courts intimidating for anyone. For Aboriginal people, the way they look at courts, what what's the feeling there? You would have seen it terrifying. Yeah, especially like.

I think I wrote in Black and Blue that you know, these young ones that were running away and leeing, and you know I was in me and other place, were in foot pursuits with them, and vehicle pursuits for I do the same as well, you know, because the safeties can compromise. You know, if you're looking at a hefty sentence. You know, if one more you're on parole already you're on bail and you're you're fucked up, and you know, if you get quarter gray and you're going to go, you've been sold. You won't get any bail and you're going to be sentenced. And as a young person or an adult, to be separated by your family, especially for Abrginal people, like in cultural law, banishment is the hoys. So so we have our own Black Colow justice system. We don't talk about it too much. We don't want to. Really, it's got nothing to do with anyone. Like, it's just we have our own systems in place, and banishment is the worst form of punishment or retribution. And so when the white justice system banishes our family member from us into their custody, yeah, it's like it's your place to do that, like we do that, you know, And that the alleged crime, the white crime that they were alleged to have committed, it's not a crime for us. It's not a jailable sentence for us. It's not a it's not a banishment for us.

I think I wrote in Black and Blue that you know, these young ones that were running away and leeing, and you know I was in me and other place, were in foot pursuits with them, and vehicle pursuits for I do the same as well, you know, because the safeties can compromise. You know, if you're looking at a hefty sentence. You know, if one more you're on parole already you're on bail and you're you're fucked up, and you know, if you get quarter gray and you're going to go, you've been sold. You won't get any bail and you're going to be sentenced. And as a young person or an adult, to be separated by your family, especially for Abrginal people, like in cultural law, banishment is the hoys. So so we have our own Black Colow justice system. We don't talk about it too much. We don't want to. Really, it's got nothing to do with anyone. Like, it's just we have our own systems in place, and banishment is the worst form of punishment or retribution. And so when the white justice system banishes our family member from us into their custody, yeah, it's like it's your place to do that, like we do that, you know, And that the alleged crime, the white crime that they were alleged to have committed, it's not a crime for us. It's not a jailable sentence for us. It's not a it's not a banishment for us.

It makes it makes it very complex, where what you're saying there that Okay, this is a group of people living together, all colors, all races, all backgrounds, and but the justice system doesn't work work for you guys, and it's a different way of looking at it.

It makes it makes it very complex, where what you're saying there that Okay, this is a group of people living together, all colors, all races, all backgrounds, and but the justice system doesn't work work for you guys, and it's a different way of looking at it.

Yeah, it's not good for us.

Yeah, it's not good for us.

How do you think we could manage Well.

How do you think we could manage Well.

I think here's the thing I go and I've said it a few times, but like us, black fallows, we don't need police and a justicism. Let us do our own thing. Use follows. You obviously want the police and the just system, you can have it. You cannot yourselves out, leave my people alone. Stop surveiling them when they get out of when they get out of jail and they're on parole and they've got a report we get as police officers, they get notified and they're waiting for that person to fuck up, and then they do, well, you know, apparently they do and they're back in again. It's got what chances do they have to you know? And also prison is not a place for rehabilitation.

I think here's the thing I go and I've said it a few times, but like us, black fallows, we don't need police and a justicism. Let us do our own thing. Use follows. You obviously want the police and the just system, you can have it. You cannot yourselves out, leave my people alone. Stop surveiling them when they get out of when they get out of jail and they're on parole and they've got a report we get as police officers, they get notified and they're waiting for that person to fuck up, and then they do, well, you know, apparently they do and they're back in again. It's got what chances do they have to you know? And also prison is not a place for rehabilitation.

Not not in the traditional sense the way prisons are. That's why we've got such a high recidivism, right, And that's yeah, I personally think that the big difference that can be made when the when they're still kids and if we if we can keep kids out of jail and divert them somewhere, that is potentially a better, better fixed because you would say people become institutionalized that yeah, if they spent time locked up. The first one is a shock, second one an't able, and third it's not that bad.

Not not in the traditional sense the way prisons are. That's why we've got such a high recidivism, right, And that's yeah, I personally think that the big difference that can be made when the when they're still kids and if we if we can keep kids out of jail and divert them somewhere, that is potentially a better, better fixed because you would say people become institutionalized that yeah, if they spent time locked up. The first one is a shock, second one an't able, and third it's not that bad.

I get fed, Yeah, I'm getting three meals a day and I don't have to pay around for electricity.

I get fed, Yeah, I'm getting three meals a day and I don't have to pay around for electricity.

And just on. And I think it was when you were in the police, you were doing it tough. Financially, you weren't in a relationship single mum, you weren't getting overtime shifts and different things. And there was one and it was a sweet name and a nice gesture where you didn't have food for your kids at Christmas time and you had enough for a meal of mince meat or whatever it was for dinner, and couldn't even make a Christmas lunch and someone from the police asked you to come over and spend Christmas with them. Talk us through that.

And just on. And I think it was when you were in the police, you were doing it tough. Financially, you weren't in a relationship single mum, you weren't getting overtime shifts and different things. And there was one and it was a sweet name and a nice gesture where you didn't have food for your kids at Christmas time and you had enough for a meal of mince meat or whatever it was for dinner, and couldn't even make a Christmas lunch and someone from the police asked you to come over and spend Christmas with them. Talk us through that.

She was mouldy once, so she was minority as well, and she invited myself and my kids to come down to her place for Christmas, and so I did. I took my kids there and they had the best say, you know. And the thing is, when I was in policing, I didn't have too many police mats, so I had no friends. So I talk about my partner that I worked with for many years. He wasn't a mate, you know, like he never had me and my kids at his place. He came to my own a few times prior to us going out on a purse. No one, no one, no one, no one invited me and my kids to barbecues or stuff like that. You know what I mean.

She was mouldy once, so she was minority as well, and she invited myself and my kids to come down to her place for Christmas, and so I did. I took my kids there and they had the best say, you know. And the thing is, when I was in policing, I didn't have too many police mats, so I had no friends. So I talk about my partner that I worked with for many years. He wasn't a mate, you know, like he never had me and my kids at his place. He came to my own a few times prior to us going out on a purse. No one, no one, no one, no one invited me and my kids to barbecues or stuff like that. You know what I mean.

Look, I had no friends, but I understand what you're saying. But it just sadened me that you're you're working as a police officer and you can't can't afford to feed the kids.

Look, I had no friends, but I understand what you're saying. But it just sadened me that you're you're working as a police officer and you can't can't afford to feed the kids.

They never had Christmas presents.

They never had Christmas presents.

Now, there was one boss that did the right thing by when he f that's not up to me.

Now, there was one boss that did the right thing by when he f that's not up to me.

Which one refresh my memory?

Which one refresh my memory?

Who wasn't there one that didn't realize how much you were struggling financially and then got your red.

Who wasn't there one that didn't realize how much you were struggling financially and then got your red.

He was an inspector.

He was an inspector.

Okay, yes, I knew i'd find someone that was a good person.

Okay, yes, I knew i'd find someone that was a good person.

Come on, yeah he was. He was nice.

Come on, yeah he was. He was nice.

Yeah, and he did firearms training with the big that's right, Yeah, yeah, firearms training. And I was standing aside and he just asked me how I was going, and not one to show away, I just loose lips here again, told him my sad story, and then he said I'll fix that up. Yeah, And he got me moved out of Generals and put me in a specialized area whereas back on O s.

Yeah, and he did firearms training with the big that's right, Yeah, yeah, firearms training. And I was standing aside and he just asked me how I was going, and not one to show away, I just loose lips here again, told him my sad story, and then he said I'll fix that up. Yeah, And he got me moved out of Generals and put me in a specialized area whereas back on O s.

A that's an extra allowance that yeah, yeah.

A that's an extra allowance that yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and air was that I could manage with the children. So I don't know, you know, I don't know if you ever realized, but he was. He was really good, you know. And then that unit became very toxic as well. There was a few openly racist people. And then we'll do it going through I was in that section that station when they had the Palm Island rights.

Yeah, and air was that I could manage with the children. So I don't know, you know, I don't know if you ever realized, but he was. He was really good, you know. And then that unit became very toxic as well. There was a few openly racist people. And then we'll do it going through I was in that section that station when they had the Palm Island rights.

Okay, well that was.

Okay, well that was.

Yeah, so the racism was quite evident and that they will quite vocal about it. Actually, you know, it's very scary to be an agin police at that time.

Yeah, so the racism was quite evident and that they will quite vocal about it. Actually, you know, it's very scary to be an agin police at that time.

How angry that because someone there was a tall man charge charge with murder and then the police were again it's something that a lot of police sort of drew drew. They are angry that the police officer got charge.

How angry that because someone there was a tall man charge charge with murder and then the police were again it's something that a lot of police sort of drew drew. They are angry that the police officer got charge.

And also with Zachary Rolph as.

And also with Zachary Rolph as.

Well, you know, the Northern Territory.

Well, you know, the Northern Territory.

Same thing. And I just want to bring up too, sorry, I'm talking about average kids. So I go from one thing to the other, and I'm going to fidget in my hand. This is my life as a cop. You said, what did I get out of it? I learned how to commit crime, white crime, and get away with it.

Same thing. And I just want to bring up too, sorry, I'm talking about average kids. So I go from one thing to the other, and I'm going to fidget in my hand. This is my life as a cop. You said, what did I get out of it? I learned how to commit crime, white crime, and get away with it.

I was going to finish off on the fact that we found that supervisor that was a nice cop. But look, that's a segue. We'll go into the next part. I don't know where this is going to take us, because your second book, When Cops Are Criminals, good title. In this book edited a number of short stories about people's experience with corruption, brutality, races, and dealing with the police. Now, this is a blurb on the book. I'll just read it out. A powerful indictment of the criminal behavior of police officers and a call for institutional reform. Edited by multi award winning author of Black and Blue. That's your Yeah, you knew that, deo. All right, move along, move along. When Cops of Criminals examines the widespread problem of police brutality and corruption from the perspectives of those who understand it in depth, pulling together the accounts of survivors, campaigners, and academics, explores different forms of criminal behavior by police, the factors that contribute to it, the impact it has on victims, and the challenges of holding perpetrators accountable. Okay, so that's another heavy book that you've written. I won't go into it, but I've read it, and that's a series of examples of people's own experiences, their stories of different people that have experienced whether it's brutality, racism, or corruption in dealing with the police. Is there some stories you can talk from the book or things that you think is of interest.

I was going to finish off on the fact that we found that supervisor that was a nice cop. But look, that's a segue. We'll go into the next part. I don't know where this is going to take us, because your second book, When Cops Are Criminals, good title. In this book edited a number of short stories about people's experience with corruption, brutality, races, and dealing with the police. Now, this is a blurb on the book. I'll just read it out. A powerful indictment of the criminal behavior of police officers and a call for institutional reform. Edited by multi award winning author of Black and Blue. That's your Yeah, you knew that, deo. All right, move along, move along. When Cops of Criminals examines the widespread problem of police brutality and corruption from the perspectives of those who understand it in depth, pulling together the accounts of survivors, campaigners, and academics, explores different forms of criminal behavior by police, the factors that contribute to it, the impact it has on victims, and the challenges of holding perpetrators accountable. Okay, so that's another heavy book that you've written. I won't go into it, but I've read it, and that's a series of examples of people's own experiences, their stories of different people that have experienced whether it's brutality, racism, or corruption in dealing with the police. Is there some stories you can talk from the book or things that you think is of interest.

Yeah. So firstly, I want to applaud the contributors who have shared their experiences and want the listeners to know that I have a lot of pseudonyms. There are a lot of pseudonyms, and some events have happened. There's one example, and this person is still terrified to come out and be publicly publicly named themselves due to you know, like bubble force to perjure, to commit perjuring in court by detectives, and their life was in dangerous a result due to the threats made. So that resonated with.

Yeah. So firstly, I want to applaud the contributors who have shared their experiences and want the listeners to know that I have a lot of pseudonyms. There are a lot of pseudonyms, and some events have happened. There's one example, and this person is still terrified to come out and be publicly publicly named themselves due to you know, like bubble force to perjure, to commit perjuring in court by detectives, and their life was in dangerous a result due to the threats made. So that resonated with.

Me that was a witness to an assault or.

Me that was a witness to an assault or.

Yes, and that that person put a complaint in against those detectives.

Yes, and that that person put a complaint in against those detectives.

Yeah, and they I'll put in Layman's terms about the witness not to didn't say anything, Yeah, I think.

Yeah, and they I'll put in Layman's terms about the witness not to didn't say anything, Yeah, I think.

And so this person's lived with that, and you know, and they've always been an honest person, and you know, they don't lie, They're very honest, but they were forced to and that's you know, that's the power that police have that they can do that to somebody. Another chapter that resonated with me was Kate Passinis the last chapter a white form of Copper, And why that resonated with me was because pretty much much of what Kate was writing about is what I wrote in Black and Blue, so it validated to make it validated what I wrote about in Black and Blue. And so when I, as a black woman, when a black person shares their experiences, it's yeah, we read it, Okay, that's to be expected. But when a white person explained says the same thing and says that happen, people take notice. And that's for way again, black fellows aren't good victims.

And so this person's lived with that, and you know, and they've always been an honest person, and you know, they don't lie, They're very honest, but they were forced to and that's you know, that's the power that police have that they can do that to somebody. Another chapter that resonated with me was Kate Passinis the last chapter a white form of Copper, And why that resonated with me was because pretty much much of what Kate was writing about is what I wrote in Black and Blue, so it validated to make it validated what I wrote about in Black and Blue. And so when I, as a black woman, when a black person shares their experiences, it's yeah, we read it, Okay, that's to be expected. But when a white person explained says the same thing and says that happen, people take notice. And that's for way again, black fellows aren't good victims.

Yeah, because people aren't. The people aren't listening.

Yeah, because people aren't. The people aren't listening.

They don't care. All lords don't matter, Black lives don't matter. I look, and it should I was.

They don't care. All lords don't matter, Black lives don't matter. I look, and it should I was.

I think when we're talking about the George Floyd and the marching and the Black Lives Matters marches, and yeah, because I just out of the cops in controversial circumstances have been asked by the media, what are you doing here? Like, what's this about? And I made the point, well, I'm marching for a personal reason in that I've seen parable other cases as well where the attention that should have been given to to the investigations wasn't. And the point being that black lives do matter, and it should have been properly resourced, regardless of who the victim is. But heavy reading. It's heavy reading for a cop, and it brings shame to all of us at the police. Look and I've got to say, I'm proud of stuff that I've done in police, and I don't think I'm the exception that there's people that I look up to, the outstanding citizens. But this is about your experience and your experience that I can't. You're a woman, you're a black woman, you're in the police, and the experiences. How do you think we can change the culture to make it a better place? Like if say one of your children wanted to join the police, I'm suggesting that mum wouldn't let them, but or they'd want to. But if someone did, someone someone decided, What do you think how do you think the organization could change?

I think when we're talking about the George Floyd and the marching and the Black Lives Matters marches, and yeah, because I just out of the cops in controversial circumstances have been asked by the media, what are you doing here? Like, what's this about? And I made the point, well, I'm marching for a personal reason in that I've seen parable other cases as well where the attention that should have been given to to the investigations wasn't. And the point being that black lives do matter, and it should have been properly resourced, regardless of who the victim is. But heavy reading. It's heavy reading for a cop, and it brings shame to all of us at the police. Look and I've got to say, I'm proud of stuff that I've done in police, and I don't think I'm the exception that there's people that I look up to, the outstanding citizens. But this is about your experience and your experience that I can't. You're a woman, you're a black woman, you're in the police, and the experiences. How do you think we can change the culture to make it a better place? Like if say one of your children wanted to join the police, I'm suggesting that mum wouldn't let them, but or they'd want to. But if someone did, someone someone decided, What do you think how do you think the organization could change?

Is the culture?

Is the culture?

Is it capable of changing its culture?

Is it capable of changing its culture?

No, it can't be changed. It's so deeply entrenched. It's systemic. Actually, they teach you to be racist, they teach you to pull over Pacific Islander people because they're known to not have any driver's license. They teach you to pull over and strip search. To Vietnamese people because they're known to be drug dealers. That's what they teach you, you know what I mean. So it's like it's never going to end.

No, it can't be changed. It's so deeply entrenched. It's systemic. Actually, they teach you to be racist, they teach you to pull over Pacific Islander people because they're known to not have any driver's license. They teach you to pull over and strip search. To Vietnamese people because they're known to be drug dealers. That's what they teach you, you know what I mean. So it's like it's never going to end.

Can it?

Can it?

Can it?

Can it?

Individuals make a difference? But can the individuals?

Individuals make a difference? But can the individuals?

Yeah? So as a community instead of calling police, there are actually right now there are communities that are experiment experimenting with this whereby they don't call police and they're sorting out the issue, sitting down and working out, you know, and talking about it. You know. And I know I don't have all the answers.

Yeah? So as a community instead of calling police, there are actually right now there are communities that are experiment experimenting with this whereby they don't call police and they're sorting out the issue, sitting down and working out, you know, and talking about it. You know. And I know I don't have all the answers.

Because I just challenge you with that. You've been a police officer long enough to know sometimes you just can't sort that. Sometimes people have got to be taken out of play for whatever reason.

Because I just challenge you with that. You've been a police officer long enough to know sometimes you just can't sort that. Sometimes people have got to be taken out of play for whatever reason.

Yeah, there's some things that can't be you know, there's crimes against children and yeah, I know where you're going with that, and crimes against a person serious. Yeah, I just think there's other ways to deal with it. I don't think jails are way. I want to, Like a lot of people that are incarcerated right now, have what they're suffering from mental health issues and former addictions, and probably as a result of their mental health issue that is not getting properly treated prior to being imprisoned and whilst they're being incarcerated. So you go again, prison is not a place for a rehabilitation. There's other ways to deal with it. Yeah, I just don't have all the answers right now, but I'm working on it. That'll be the next book.

Yeah, there's some things that can't be you know, there's crimes against children and yeah, I know where you're going with that, and crimes against a person serious. Yeah, I just think there's other ways to deal with it. I don't think jails are way. I want to, Like a lot of people that are incarcerated right now, have what they're suffering from mental health issues and former addictions, and probably as a result of their mental health issue that is not getting properly treated prior to being imprisoned and whilst they're being incarcerated. So you go again, prison is not a place for a rehabilitation. There's other ways to deal with it. Yeah, I just don't have all the answers right now, but I'm working on it. That'll be the next book.

Okay, what what inspired this book? Your success to your first book? Multi award winning author. Yeah, that's what I'm going to call you from there off. You're just going to have to wear it to take the shame award winning author we don't like big note. Yeah, that's what I mean, shame.

Okay, what what inspired this book? Your success to your first book? Multi award winning author. Yeah, that's what I'm going to call you from there off. You're just going to have to wear it to take the shame award winning author we don't like big note. Yeah, that's what I mean, shame.

What prompted me to write this?

What prompted me to write this?

So?

So?

I used to follow this account holder on Twitter prior to becoming ex dB police have over and they were really brutally honest with the stuff that they were tweeting, and some of the stuff was triggering, and then I done follow. Then follow become a pattern behavior, and then I reached out to him and slid into the d MS and I didn't know I just said, would you want to meet up? I would love to have a and obviously to myself and they they will follow me as well. And so that person met up with me and they're one of the contributors in the anthology as well, and I just let them. We met at a safe place that was safe for them. And they're a former wife of a copper, a police officer who had over seventy five charters against him. Yeah, who was subjected to a lot of brutality and harm and torture. And you know, like I like, this person told me the whole story, but I've only written you know, portion of it, a portion of it.

I used to follow this account holder on Twitter prior to becoming ex dB police have over and they were really brutally honest with the stuff that they were tweeting, and some of the stuff was triggering, and then I done follow. Then follow become a pattern behavior, and then I reached out to him and slid into the d MS and I didn't know I just said, would you want to meet up? I would love to have a and obviously to myself and they they will follow me as well. And so that person met up with me and they're one of the contributors in the anthology as well, and I just let them. We met at a safe place that was safe for them. And they're a former wife of a copper, a police officer who had over seventy five charters against him. Yeah, who was subjected to a lot of brutality and harm and torture. And you know, like I like, this person told me the whole story, but I've only written you know, portion of it, a portion of it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then I and then I just was this person was talking. I said, oh, if I did an anthology, yeah, you prepared to tell your story, and this person said yes. And then so I just rang up my publishers and said, I have got no idea for another book, because you never want to be that one that does it like one book wonder.

And then I and then I just was this person was talking. I said, oh, if I did an anthology, yeah, you prepared to tell your story, and this person said yes. And then so I just rang up my publishers and said, I have got no idea for another book, because you never want to be that one that does it like one book wonder.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you want to try and get that can book out. Yeah, I've written two books christ otherwise I would have been embarrassed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you want to try and get that can book out. Yeah, I've written two books christ otherwise I would have been embarrassed.

Put on your mate, I've got a third one and the fourth No, no, I don't have it. I mean it's in my head and written yet. Yeah, okay, we'll started the fourth one. But now I've got an idea for the third one. Yeah, I'm just waiting to hear.

Put on your mate, I've got a third one and the fourth No, no, I don't have it. I mean it's in my head and written yet. Yeah, okay, we'll started the fourth one. But now I've got an idea for the third one. Yeah, I'm just waiting to hear.

But they generally start off as an idea, don't they, And then it's got.

But they generally start off as an idea, don't they, And then it's got.

To yeah, what's your process?

To yeah, what's your process?

Because well, when when I left the Cops in dramatic and controversial circumstances, yeah, that's that's what I said. Fucking hell, I thought I want to set the record straight because there was a lot of narrative been said and a lot of things that were being said that weren't true. So that that inspired the first book, And once I started, it was cathartic for me too, I felt, Yeah, after that, it was pretty pretty heavy going for me. This was a job I loved, I was passionate about, and it was taken away overnight. So what am I going to do? The book was good for me, it went well, and on the back of that, I were and I did the book with a person that I've worked closely with. He used to be a crime reporter, Dan Box, so it worked well together, you know Dan. Yeah, he wrote Bearable the book too, you know. He and he did a podcast on it, so he understood where I'm coming from, and so did did that and then we thought, okay, what have you got to say next? And I thought, well, with Badness will tell people what what creates badness? Where does it evil work? And sort of take a deep, dark dip into that.

Because well, when when I left the Cops in dramatic and controversial circumstances, yeah, that's that's what I said. Fucking hell, I thought I want to set the record straight because there was a lot of narrative been said and a lot of things that were being said that weren't true. So that that inspired the first book, And once I started, it was cathartic for me too, I felt, Yeah, after that, it was pretty pretty heavy going for me. This was a job I loved, I was passionate about, and it was taken away overnight. So what am I going to do? The book was good for me, it went well, and on the back of that, I were and I did the book with a person that I've worked closely with. He used to be a crime reporter, Dan Box, so it worked well together, you know Dan. Yeah, he wrote Bearable the book too, you know. He and he did a podcast on it, so he understood where I'm coming from, and so did did that and then we thought, okay, what have you got to say next? And I thought, well, with Badness will tell people what what creates badness? Where does it evil work? And sort of take a deep, dark dip into that.

People like reading about that misery loves company, which we won't mean you can so well.

People like reading about that misery loves company, which we won't mean you can so well.

Am I company and your misery or vice versa. I'm very happy, Okay, I'm.

Am I company and your misery or vice versa. I'm very happy, Okay, I'm.

Yeah. People love reading about well, it takes them away from their dramas or what's happening in their lives.

Yeah. People love reading about well, it takes them away from their dramas or what's happening in their lives.

Well, I suppose like, yeah, I'm doing this true crime podcast, and what's what's that about? People are fascinated by crime, and I get us at time and time again, what is it about? I think people don't generally, people don't get to see the side of the world that cops see and that side of the world, and so I think they're interested in it, and that's why I think there's an obsession with it. So yeah, but yeah, I like storytelling. You say your people like storytelling. I like storytelling, and I see having a podcast like this is almost like telling a story or.

Well, I suppose like, yeah, I'm doing this true crime podcast, and what's what's that about? People are fascinated by crime, and I get us at time and time again, what is it about? I think people don't generally, people don't get to see the side of the world that cops see and that side of the world, and so I think they're interested in it, and that's why I think there's an obsession with it. So yeah, but yeah, I like storytelling. You say your people like storytelling. I like storytelling, and I see having a podcast like this is almost like telling a story or.

For the root listeners again that you and I both we know what we can and can't say. We know how to cover our asses, you know, And yeah, you know what I mean because I've worked on that side.

For the root listeners again that you and I both we know what we can and can't say. We know how to cover our asses, you know, And yeah, you know what I mean because I've worked on that side.

Well, yeah, I don't want I don't know you, but I don't want to go to court again. If I never set foot in another court for the rest of my life, I'd be happy because I hated court. I didn't it was a necessary evil. When I was in the cops and there's a homicide detective, I spent a hell of a lot of time in the court, and then as a defendant, I spent a hell of a lot of time in the court. And if I never see another court again, I'll be a happy man. Somehow, I don't think that's going to work. I suspect I will be in court again at some stage, but yeah, it's an intimidating environment. I'm hoping by having you on the podcast and talking and just having a yarn like we have, people get an understanding of the issues because you've brought up some things, and you know, I think I know my stuff around the world that you live in, but it's a different perspective. If you'll walk those footsteps and yeah, I can only imagine how hard it was. Well, I can't imagine going in the cops being discriminated because of your race, because of your sex, and a cultural discrimination. Whether people went the way own it or not, there would be what's why we got a woman in the cops, an aboriginal woman like it would have been hard for you. The fact that you used to turn up for work an hour before your shift started because you wanted to show people, look, I'm here, I'm worthwhile. That made me sad.