The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective sy aside of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode that I Catch Killers. Today, we're going to explore a pivotal moment in Australian history, a series of events that tested the capabilities of New South Wales police to restore law and order backdrop of community grievances and racial tensions. On Sunday, the eleventh of December two thousand and five, a seemingly ordinary day in the Sydney Beachside suburb of Cronulla spiraled into violence and chaos. What began as a local confrontation escalated into a riot and a series of violent attacks and damaged the property. The events shocked Australia and made news across the world and exposed deep seated issues of identity, race and belonging. We're going to be talking today with two of the men responsible for restoring law and order during the chaos. We have with us in the studio, former Assistant Commissioner Mark Goodwin and former New South Wales Police Minister Carl Scully. They're going to give us a behind the scenes look at what caused the riot and the follow up revenge, how the police managed to quell the violence, and what were the after effects. Firstly, let me welcome former New South Wales Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Goodwin.

The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective sy aside of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode that I Catch Killers. Today, we're going to explore a pivotal moment in Australian history, a series of events that tested the capabilities of New South Wales police to restore law and order backdrop of community grievances and racial tensions. On Sunday, the eleventh of December two thousand and five, a seemingly ordinary day in the Sydney Beachside suburb of Cronulla spiraled into violence and chaos. What began as a local confrontation escalated into a riot and a series of violent attacks and damaged the property. The events shocked Australia and made news across the world and exposed deep seated issues of identity, race and belonging. We're going to be talking today with two of the men responsible for restoring law and order during the chaos. We have with us in the studio, former Assistant Commissioner Mark Goodwin and former New South Wales Police Minister Carl Scully. They're going to give us a behind the scenes look at what caused the riot and the follow up revenge, how the police managed to quell the violence, and what were the after effects. Firstly, let me welcome former New South Wales Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Goodwin.

Gary, thanks for having us on mat All.

Gary, thanks for having us on mat All.

Thanks for coming on. And we've also got in the studio with us former New South Wales Police Minister Carl Scully. Thanks for the invite, well, thanks for coming on. Crenulla riots it's something that touched in the psyche of our society, isn't it really? It was such a pivotal moment the you two were right at the heart and center of it, overseeing what was happening at the time. What's what's your memories of the day.

Thanks for coming on. And we've also got in the studio with us former New South Wales Police Minister Carl Scully. Thanks for the invite, well, thanks for coming on. Crenulla riots it's something that touched in the psyche of our society, isn't it really? It was such a pivotal moment the you two were right at the heart and center of it, overseeing what was happening at the time. What's what's your memories of the day.

Yeah, Look, it was a Balmi Sunday, typical hot summer's day in Sydney.

Yeah, Look, it was a Balmi Sunday, typical hot summer's day in Sydney.

And in the morning it started.

And in the morning it started.

Out with more of a lock of Australia day really of a celebration on the beach. And look, they were all there to make a point, make a statement. Really it was it was, it was. There had been hundreds and thousands of text messages to reclaim the beach from the issues that had been going on down there, which will discuss a bit later, but then you know, and there was flag waving and barbecues and about five thousand people turned up on the beach down there that day, and they were a mixture of some locals, a lot of people that weren't from the area that had turned up because of the intense media which will ned out canvas, and also the thousands of tech hundreds of thousands of text messages. But look, as the day wore on, there was white supremacists turned up in the crowd in big utilities with jacked up suspension and eurek are stocking flags in the back, and they wanted to make a point. They were hardcore and they were not local. In fact, you'll see on the front of our book that we chose this particular photo on the front of the book. It is literally what ninety nine percent of the day looked like. There was lots and lots of police. We had prepared for a very likelihood of a very large public order incident, as all the rights squad were there and helicopters and boats in the water, and you know the police off here are dog squads and prison vans and so forth, so we were ready to go. But ninety of the day literally was the police watching the rubberneckers, and they rubberneckers watching this brookers in the crowd. And you'll see on that front cover, actually there's a guy there with his arms in the air. He's wearing The digital photo of this clear show shows it clearly, but he's wearing stars and stripes, red, white and blue bandana on his head and he's playing around. You can see the cameras around him with a fur big furry microphones and whatnot.

Out with more of a lock of Australia day really of a celebration on the beach. And look, they were all there to make a point, make a statement. Really it was it was, it was. There had been hundreds and thousands of text messages to reclaim the beach from the issues that had been going on down there, which will discuss a bit later, but then you know, and there was flag waving and barbecues and about five thousand people turned up on the beach down there that day, and they were a mixture of some locals, a lot of people that weren't from the area that had turned up because of the intense media which will ned out canvas, and also the thousands of tech hundreds of thousands of text messages. But look, as the day wore on, there was white supremacists turned up in the crowd in big utilities with jacked up suspension and eurek are stocking flags in the back, and they wanted to make a point. They were hardcore and they were not local. In fact, you'll see on the front of our book that we chose this particular photo on the front of the book. It is literally what ninety nine percent of the day looked like. There was lots and lots of police. We had prepared for a very likelihood of a very large public order incident, as all the rights squad were there and helicopters and boats in the water, and you know the police off here are dog squads and prison vans and so forth, so we were ready to go. But ninety of the day literally was the police watching the rubberneckers, and they rubberneckers watching this brookers in the crowd. And you'll see on that front cover, actually there's a guy there with his arms in the air. He's wearing The digital photo of this clear show shows it clearly, but he's wearing stars and stripes, red, white and blue bandana on his head and he's playing around. You can see the cameras around him with a fur big furry microphones and whatnot.

So he's a white.

So he's a white.

Supremacist spooker that had turned up in the crowd and they started the trouble down there. They started chance and then the old kicked in and it went from there.

Supremacist spooker that had turned up in the crowd and they started the trouble down there. They started chance and then the old kicked in and it went from there.

We'll delve into it in detail just to get the sense of it. And I call it, I'm precedented in our modern modern times, the right of that nature, gathering that nature. Carl, were the police minister at the time when things were starting to escalate, and what was your take on what happened? And I should correct myself because it's not just the day. There was a lead up to it and there was the aftermath of it with the revenge attacks. But from a police minister's point of view, you're watching things unfault a.

We'll delve into it in detail just to get the sense of it. And I call it, I'm precedented in our modern modern times, the right of that nature, gathering that nature. Carl, were the police minister at the time when things were starting to escalate, and what was your take on what happened? And I should correct myself because it's not just the day. There was a lead up to it and there was the aftermath of it with the revenge attacks. But from a police minister's point of view, you're watching things unfault a.

Couple of things. I was Police Minister for about a month when the mcquarie Fields riots happened.

Couple of things. I was Police Minister for about a month when the mcquarie Fields riots happened.

Okay, so experience.

Okay, so experience.

I had some concerns and about how we handled it. There was a really good internal inquiry process run by Deputy Commission Dave Madden, one of Australia's leading law and order experts on right response. Ron Mason was an important part of that and as a result we set up the Public Order and Riot Squad, which wasn't quite fully formed by the time the Cronulla rights.

I had some concerns and about how we handled it. There was a really good internal inquiry process run by Deputy Commission Dave Madden, one of Australia's leading law and order experts on right response. Ron Mason was an important part of that and as a result we set up the Public Order and Riot Squad, which wasn't quite fully formed by the time the Cronulla rights.

That was on the back of the Macquarie rights. Yes so.

That was on the back of the Macquarie rights. Yes so.

And just a few months later we had the Lifeguard biffo down at North Cronulla Beach, some lot of moral panic being projected by talkback radio and tabloid newspapers. And I was somewhat sad and gary when I went down to Cronulla in the lead up to that eleventh of December two thousand and five, seeing all these Australian flags draped over people's front yards and it made me feel not a huge number, but more than I'd really seen before in my public life. And then learning about all these text messages and clarion calls, I thought, Gee, there's some trouble going on here, and I sought the reassurance that we were prepared for it. And yes, I went down to the beach area with the premiere Assistant Commissioner Goodwin briefness and more importantly briefness on an escalation plan in case it got out of control. So I certainly felt trouble was brewing. It didn't look good, but I certainly felt police were ready for it.

And just a few months later we had the Lifeguard biffo down at North Cronulla Beach, some lot of moral panic being projected by talkback radio and tabloid newspapers. And I was somewhat sad and gary when I went down to Cronulla in the lead up to that eleventh of December two thousand and five, seeing all these Australian flags draped over people's front yards and it made me feel not a huge number, but more than I'd really seen before in my public life. And then learning about all these text messages and clarion calls, I thought, Gee, there's some trouble going on here, and I sought the reassurance that we were prepared for it. And yes, I went down to the beach area with the premiere Assistant Commissioner Goodwin briefness and more importantly briefness on an escalation plan in case it got out of control. So I certainly felt trouble was brewing. It didn't look good, but I certainly felt police were ready for it.

Okay, the pressure on both of you guys on that day, with the build up mark you, the senior officer, was responsible for managing all the what was going to occur on that day from a police response. I want to break it down and go into details the lead up to it and everything that happened, But just purely on a personal point of view. Yeah, you joined the cops, you expect expect pressure, but that was pressure on a large scale. How did it affect you personally just during the days that you were managing the situation here?

Okay, the pressure on both of you guys on that day, with the build up mark you, the senior officer, was responsible for managing all the what was going to occur on that day from a police response. I want to break it down and go into details the lead up to it and everything that happened, But just purely on a personal point of view. Yeah, you joined the cops, you expect expect pressure, but that was pressure on a large scale. How did it affect you personally just during the days that you were managing the situation here?

Look, really the pressure was off the Richter scale, to be quite honest with her, and not so much on the day, but in the revenge attacks which will canvas later. But look, you know, nothing can prepare for something the size of what that turned out. But I certainly had a very extensive background as a criminal investigator and had run major homicide briefs like yourself, armedhold up squad, drug squad, undercover unit, and I'd been involved in hostage negotiators for over a decade and stuff. So I'd seen and been at the point end of operational activity. And luckily I'd spent five years also as our manager at Bankstown before I rose up to the lofty heights, and that very well prepared me for how the Middle Eastern community reacts and how they're policed and so forth.

Look, really the pressure was off the Richter scale, to be quite honest with her, and not so much on the day, but in the revenge attacks which will canvas later. But look, you know, nothing can prepare for something the size of what that turned out. But I certainly had a very extensive background as a criminal investigator and had run major homicide briefs like yourself, armedhold up squad, drug squad, undercover unit, and I'd been involved in hostage negotiators for over a decade and stuff. So I'd seen and been at the point end of operational activity. And luckily I'd spent five years also as our manager at Bankstown before I rose up to the lofty heights, and that very well prepared me for how the Middle Eastern community reacts and how they're policed and so forth.

But the pressure.

But the pressure.

I don't think anything could prepare any person for the immense pressure that we were under. Because literally, and we'll talk about this later, but the you know, the following weekend even it was the largest public order police operation it's ever been run in Australia still to this date. So you know, we had to literally put the entire police service into a mode which was thankfully the new South Pols Police had run the Olympics four years before, in the year two thousand or five years before, sorry, And then you know that required the freeing up of an immense amount of resources from country regional areas and the logistics of having none of those people brought into Sydney and housing them and stuff.

I don't think anything could prepare any person for the immense pressure that we were under. Because literally, and we'll talk about this later, but the you know, the following weekend even it was the largest public order police operation it's ever been run in Australia still to this date. So you know, we had to literally put the entire police service into a mode which was thankfully the new South Pols Police had run the Olympics four years before, in the year two thousand or five years before, sorry, And then you know that required the freeing up of an immense amount of resources from country regional areas and the logistics of having none of those people brought into Sydney and housing them and stuff.

So I had to deal with all that.

So I had to deal with all that.

I had to deal with the legislative reform that we urgently needed, the actual operational activity, and it was just an immense operation.

I had to deal with the legislative reform that we urgently needed, the actual operational activity, and it was just an immense operation.

So there's a lot a lot.

So there's a lot a lot.

Of yeah, a lot of the move a lot of moving parts, and a lot of pressure and a lot of things that could go wrong. I must admit reading the book, even though I recall it, I recall it very clearly. I was a crime manager and all our troops have been taken away and we're trying to manage the LAC that I was in at the time, but it was virtually everyone had the roll. This leaves up and get involved, Carl. From a police minister's point of view, I would imagine I don't fully understand the world of politics, but I I would imagine there'd be a lot of phone calls going backwards and forwards, and pressure would have been on you in that role as well.

Of yeah, a lot of the move a lot of moving parts, and a lot of pressure and a lot of things that could go wrong. I must admit reading the book, even though I recall it, I recall it very clearly. I was a crime manager and all our troops have been taken away and we're trying to manage the LAC that I was in at the time, but it was virtually everyone had the roll. This leaves up and get involved, Carl. From a police minister's point of view, I would imagine I don't fully understand the world of politics, but I I would imagine there'd be a lot of phone calls going backwards and forwards, and pressure would have been on you in that role as well.

It's a funny role police minister. Yes it's political. You're part of the cabinet room, but in a sense you sort of stand outside that process law enforcement, and for most of my time I was there. Commissioner and minister have to work hand in glove, and in some ways we overlap each other's roles to make it work. In some senses, I was co commissioner. Of course, the missioner can't work without full political support. A minister can't work without full commissioner support. My concern was to make sure the powers, the personnel and the resources were made available. That's what I could do and did do, and you might see in the book I didn't dwell too much on this, but the Macquarie Fields experience left me feeling the senior command weren't quite responsive enough that they could have been, so I was wary of it when this happened again, and I did say to Commissioner Maroni, the police force were not up to it. I'd be asking the Premier to seek soldiers, bring the military in. And he very quickly jumped to attention and made the entire police force available to Assistant Commissioner Goodwin. And that was a turning point at that point, and sadly I had to threaten it was a serious threat, but he showed me the police were up to it, they can work.

It's a funny role police minister. Yes it's political. You're part of the cabinet room, but in a sense you sort of stand outside that process law enforcement, and for most of my time I was there. Commissioner and minister have to work hand in glove, and in some ways we overlap each other's roles to make it work. In some senses, I was co commissioner. Of course, the missioner can't work without full political support. A minister can't work without full commissioner support. My concern was to make sure the powers, the personnel and the resources were made available. That's what I could do and did do, and you might see in the book I didn't dwell too much on this, but the Macquarie Fields experience left me feeling the senior command weren't quite responsive enough that they could have been, so I was wary of it when this happened again, and I did say to Commissioner Maroni, the police force were not up to it. I'd be asking the Premier to seek soldiers, bring the military in. And he very quickly jumped to attention and made the entire police force available to Assistant Commissioner Goodwin. And that was a turning point at that point, and sadly I had to threaten it was a serious threat, but he showed me the police were up to it, they can work.

Well. That makes sense because that is a huge call to involve the military in a law and order issue, and again almost unprecedented. So I could imagine when that's you made those murmurings that this might be the way we had to go. I could imagine the pressure that come a big call.

Well. That makes sense because that is a huge call to involve the military in a law and order issue, and again almost unprecedented. So I could imagine when that's you made those murmurings that this might be the way we had to go. I could imagine the pressure that come a big call.

Was I prepared to do it?

Was I prepared to do it?

Yes, I believe Prime Minister Howard would have made a quick amendment to the military legislation to allow soldiers to be used to quell dissent in a democracy. It's not a nice call, but I got to the point where I thought I may need to make it because I could see a macquarie Field's response slow, tardy, taking days to get to the point. We needed a quick response. And when he got that message, and I thank him for it, he responded and Assistant Commissioner Goodman literally had the entire New South Wales Police Force then at his disposal and the job they did was magnificent.

Yes, I believe Prime Minister Howard would have made a quick amendment to the military legislation to allow soldiers to be used to quell dissent in a democracy. It's not a nice call, but I got to the point where I thought I may need to make it because I could see a macquarie Field's response slow, tardy, taking days to get to the point. We needed a quick response. And when he got that message, and I thank him for it, he responded and Assistant Commissioner Goodman literally had the entire New South Wales Police Force then at his disposal and the job they did was magnificent.

Well, when we talk about and I got it pro your book, but I understand, I understood the new answers of what was going on, and it's something that could have very seriously escalated and not just basing Cronulla. And I know the revenge attacks were spread further, but it could have spread right across all of Sydney and white of Sydney.

Well, when we talk about and I got it pro your book, but I understand, I understood the new answers of what was going on, and it's something that could have very seriously escalated and not just basing Cronulla. And I know the revenge attacks were spread further, but it could have spread right across all of Sydney and white of Sydney.

So I guess I approach When people ask me why did we write the book, there's a few reasons, and both of us have got different reasons, but essentially I want people to think of the questions what happened, what could have happened, and why did it happen?

So I guess I approach When people ask me why did we write the book, there's a few reasons, and both of us have got different reasons, but essentially I want people to think of the questions what happened, what could have happened, and why did it happen?

Now? What happened?

Now? What happened?

A lot of people have got their own memories of what happened? What could have happened? Well, firstly what happened? A lot of people have forgotten the detail and it was pretty nasty, the revenge attacks because the videographic and photographic evidence is solely one sided. As Mark and I often say, if you google Cronulla Rides, you don't get any of the revenge attacks. So we think it's important what did happen needs to be recorded because the revenge attacks were off the charts compared to what happened at North Cronulla Beach.

A lot of people have got their own memories of what happened? What could have happened? Well, firstly what happened? A lot of people have forgotten the detail and it was pretty nasty, the revenge attacks because the videographic and photographic evidence is solely one sided. As Mark and I often say, if you google Cronulla Rides, you don't get any of the revenge attacks. So we think it's important what did happen needs to be recorded because the revenge attacks were off the charts compared to what happened at North Cronulla Beach.

What could have happened?

What could have happened?

The intelligence coming to Mark and through Mark to me was frightening. Then of course why did it happen? Is a sociological analysis that we go through.

The intelligence coming to Mark and through Mark to me was frightening. Then of course why did it happen? Is a sociological analysis that we go through.

Yeah, and we'll try and try and break that down as complex that that it is.

Yeah, and we'll try and try and break that down as complex that that it is.

For three important questions as to how we approach the.

For three important questions as to how we approach the.

Book, and Mark in writing the book, was important to you to have the full story out there as well.

Book, and Mark in writing the book, was important to you to have the full story out there as well.

Yeah, look Arry, over the years there's been a lot of stuff written about it. And look even now, every time the word racism is mentioned in Australia, the Cronella rights come to the fore and they wheel out the old footage of only the Caucasian issues on the beach during the day, and we thought it was important that the because there is such a skewed reporting and all the academic work that's been done since because what happened during the day, every media area in Sydney turned up. There'd been such a beat up and build up to it. Every journalist in Australia I think, was there on the day. So, I mean, as I've already mentioned, which is the front of our book, most of the day was the cops watching the rubberneckers, rubbineck watching the spreakers in the crowd, and then there it's got out of hand. So I counted only recently nine incidents that occurred that were of any significance or violence.

Yeah, look Arry, over the years there's been a lot of stuff written about it. And look even now, every time the word racism is mentioned in Australia, the Cronella rights come to the fore and they wheel out the old footage of only the Caucasian issues on the beach during the day, and we thought it was important that the because there is such a skewed reporting and all the academic work that's been done since because what happened during the day, every media area in Sydney turned up. There'd been such a beat up and build up to it. Every journalist in Australia I think, was there on the day. So, I mean, as I've already mentioned, which is the front of our book, most of the day was the cops watching the rubberneckers, rubbineck watching the spreakers in the crowd, and then there it's got out of hand. So I counted only recently nine incidents that occurred that were of any significance or violence.

Now, when you spread that.

Now, when you spread that.

Out out over the entire day of over eight hours, it's a very very fake news to string that together in such short succession, like was done for the media that night with excited newsreader voiceovers to make it look like that five thousand strong crowd they're all participated in a Caucasian racist bender all day long, and it's just it's actually like fake news.

Out out over the entire day of over eight hours, it's a very very fake news to string that together in such short succession, like was done for the media that night with excited newsreader voiceovers to make it look like that five thousand strong crowd they're all participated in a Caucasian racist bender all day long, and it's just it's actually like fake news.

Gary.

Gary.

So you know, in writing this book, we sort of wanted to correct the record on that, and it's just a factual account. Some people aren't going to like that, but it is a factual account from eight as out of exactly what did occur.

So you know, in writing this book, we sort of wanted to correct the record on that, and it's just a factual account. Some people aren't going to like that, but it is a factual account from eight as out of exactly what did occur.

Would it be fair to say, and you're quite right, both of you insaying you talk racism and quite often referred to Cronulla, the race rights and all that. I've been guilty of it. I have conversations with people and yeah, the Cronulla race rights. But the tension and the type of thing that occurred at Cronulla could very well have occurred in another location if the circumstances were different, like the fact that occurred at Crenulla. There was incidents that built up and then the text messages and I want to go through some of the text messages that you got in your book, and they're very inflammatory, but it was virtually a build up to what occurred on that day. Would that be fair to say?

Would it be fair to say, and you're quite right, both of you insaying you talk racism and quite often referred to Cronulla, the race rights and all that. I've been guilty of it. I have conversations with people and yeah, the Cronulla race rights. But the tension and the type of thing that occurred at Cronulla could very well have occurred in another location if the circumstances were different, like the fact that occurred at Crenulla. There was incidents that built up and then the text messages and I want to go through some of the text messages that you got in your book, and they're very inflammatory, but it was virtually a build up to what occurred on that day. Would that be fair to say?

Over years?

Over years?

But Mark's probably better placed as a copper, But certainly all the accounts that come to us were it was building up over years and years of simmering tension with these young Lebanese Muslim use coming to the beach by train or by car, bear in mind it's the only beach in Sydney that you can come to by train. Misogynistic language, uncivil behavior, kicking sand in the faces of kids on the beach, what we call the towel versus the soccer ball. But a lot of it was inappropriate, offensive behavior, slightly below what you would call the police to come to the attention and some of the lifeguards, so they dealt with it, asked people to behave and they did. Sometimes police were called. But this simmered along and along along until those incidents towards the end of two thousand and five and people said, look, we've had enough of this, We're going to respond.

But Mark's probably better placed as a copper, But certainly all the accounts that come to us were it was building up over years and years of simmering tension with these young Lebanese Muslim use coming to the beach by train or by car, bear in mind it's the only beach in Sydney that you can come to by train. Misogynistic language, uncivil behavior, kicking sand in the faces of kids on the beach, what we call the towel versus the soccer ball. But a lot of it was inappropriate, offensive behavior, slightly below what you would call the police to come to the attention and some of the lifeguards, so they dealt with it, asked people to behave and they did. Sometimes police were called. But this simmered along and along along until those incidents towards the end of two thousand and five and people said, look, we've had enough of this, We're going to respond.

Okay, I've watched not just read the book, but watched a lot of a lot of what the reporting was and the follow up report and all that. Then I've got to say my observation of it is there's good and bad in both communities. To say one community does this, like I saw people from Lebanese or Middle East and background that were mortified what was going on. And I saw the white Caucasians Anglo Saxons, if we want to call that. More THEI fied an escalation of a core group of people that created this situation.

Okay, I've watched not just read the book, but watched a lot of a lot of what the reporting was and the follow up report and all that. Then I've got to say my observation of it is there's good and bad in both communities. To say one community does this, like I saw people from Lebanese or Middle East and background that were mortified what was going on. And I saw the white Caucasians Anglo Saxons, if we want to call that. More THEI fied an escalation of a core group of people that created this situation.

Let's look at the numbers.

Let's look at the numbers.

Two to three hundred Caucasian inebriated youth behaved in really offensive manner. Two to three hundred Lebanese or Arabic Muslims behaved in grossly violent manner. So that's less, well less than a thousand people. Does that invite academic social commentators media to scrub the slogan across Lakember and Cronulla of racist communities?

Two to three hundred Caucasian inebriated youth behaved in really offensive manner. Two to three hundred Lebanese or Arabic Muslims behaved in grossly violent manner. So that's less, well less than a thousand people. Does that invite academic social commentators media to scrub the slogan across Lakember and Cronulla of racist communities?

Of course not.

Of course not.

It is ridiculous, But that has what's happened. Because if you say you're studying racism in Australia, Marks right, you google Cronulla and it's the bastion of racism in Australia.

It is ridiculous, But that has what's happened. Because if you say you're studying racism in Australia, Marks right, you google Cronulla and it's the bastion of racism in Australia.

It's not.

It's not.

You think two to three hundred people out of a crowd of five thousand in a community across Sutherland of two to three hundred thousand, it becomes absurd, just as to say Muslim Southwestern Sydney is violently anti Caucasian. For a start, there's more Catholics and Anglicans in southwestern Syney than there are Mos.

You think two to three hundred people out of a crowd of five thousand in a community across Sutherland of two to three hundred thousand, it becomes absurd, just as to say Muslim Southwestern Sydney is violently anti Caucasian. For a start, there's more Catholics and Anglicans in southwestern Syney than there are Mos.

And I see in your book, and it's very detailed, you break down the not just the religion, but the races in different areas, and the ethnic background and the crime and all that. So it's dissected.

And I see in your book, and it's very detailed, you break down the not just the religion, but the races in different areas, and the ethnic background and the crime and all that. So it's dissected.

The challenge, sorry, Garry, is why did it go away? And it went away because we are not deeply racist. We don't hate each other in this carlais wonderful society.

The challenge, sorry, Garry, is why did it go away? And it went away because we are not deeply racist. We don't hate each other in this carlais wonderful society.

I think that's why it got so much attention, because I really think it shocked us all like it shocked us all that, oh that this is not the country we believe where we live in. And it blew up, blew up that way. Let's break down how it blew up. And a lot of it's been attributed to the I'd call it the catalyst that appeared to be with all that simmering tension that was built up over the years. There was two life savers that were assaulted. Was that the week before? Is that what prompted the text messages and the doing them throwing?

I think that's why it got so much attention, because I really think it shocked us all like it shocked us all that, oh that this is not the country we believe where we live in. And it blew up, blew up that way. Let's break down how it blew up. And a lot of it's been attributed to the I'd call it the catalyst that appeared to be with all that simmering tension that was built up over the years. There was two life savers that were assaulted. Was that the week before? Is that what prompted the text messages and the doing them throwing?

Yeah, look it was in the lead up to Christmas. The media get a bit bored and I've got a theory.

Yeah, look it was in the lead up to Christmas. The media get a bit bored and I've got a theory.

Come on, Carl, I work in the media, now, don't I've got have been there.

Come on, Carl, I work in the media, now, don't I've got have been there.

Well, well, we know parliament's in recess and you're looking for a story and nearly every year, I'll challenge you to go and find it. But nearly every year is the Grinch that stole Christmas? So I mean looking for a sort. We remember the claver More wouldn't put up the Christmas decorations, so she was the Grinch.

Well, well, we know parliament's in recess and you're looking for a story and nearly every year, I'll challenge you to go and find it. But nearly every year is the Grinch that stole Christmas? So I mean looking for a sort. We remember the claver More wouldn't put up the Christmas decorations, so she was the Grinch.

That shocking.

That shocking.

Come on, we can't let polity.

Come on, we can't let polity.

All the moll centers hadn't had working with children checks, so your children are not safe. The Grench has stolen for Christmas. Again, the massive media every year trying to they're board, they're trying to steal Christmas the great Who's the Grinch? So on this occasion of the crowd of yes, look, there was an a vicious assault on a lifeguard.

All the moll centers hadn't had working with children checks, so your children are not safe. The Grench has stolen for Christmas. Again, the massive media every year trying to they're board, they're trying to steal Christmas the great Who's the Grinch? So on this occasion of the crowd of yes, look, there was an a vicious assault on a lifeguard.

But let's face it, it was a local assault.

But let's face it, it was a local assault.

It should have been a local police matter, maybe got some local press and whatnot. But this was picked up by the media and then escalated beyond all proportion, that it was an assault on the sons of ANZACs and that the Lebanese Muslims who were responsible almost for the nine eleven attacks, had come to Australia and assaulted our lifeguards who work on the beach and volunteer their time all someone to save your life. That was just completely blown out of proportion by the media. And then you know, white supremocis supremacists stepped in, thought you beauty, rubbed their hands together and started coming to Cronulla handing out pamphlets trying to recruit people to these patriot groups.

It should have been a local police matter, maybe got some local press and whatnot. But this was picked up by the media and then escalated beyond all proportion, that it was an assault on the sons of ANZACs and that the Lebanese Muslims who were responsible almost for the nine eleven attacks, had come to Australia and assaulted our lifeguards who work on the beach and volunteer their time all someone to save your life. That was just completely blown out of proportion by the media. And then you know, white supremocis supremacists stepped in, thought you beauty, rubbed their hands together and started coming to Cronulla handing out pamphlets trying to recruit people to these patriot groups.

Then shock jocks got involved, talked it.

Then shock jocks got involved, talked it.

Up, and listeners dialing in and more and more, and it just fed off each other, and there was more and more media to a point where there was literally, as I said, there's hundreds of thousands of text messages. And interestingly, in two thousand and five, social media didn't exist. Facebook was only less than a year old, and I think worldwide only had you know, less than a million yearss I think five six hundred, wasn't it thousand or something. Well, social media was just not a thing at that time. There was a new technology called the BlackBerry and mobile phones with the ability to mass text message or chain text message to everyone in your contact list, and that's what happened. So that became the modern clarion call and pamphlets hearing if you like, for a protest on the beach. So it was something we'd never experienced before and certainly not part of the risk assessment P.

Up, and listeners dialing in and more and more, and it just fed off each other, and there was more and more media to a point where there was literally, as I said, there's hundreds of thousands of text messages. And interestingly, in two thousand and five, social media didn't exist. Facebook was only less than a year old, and I think worldwide only had you know, less than a million yearss I think five six hundred, wasn't it thousand or something. Well, social media was just not a thing at that time. There was a new technology called the BlackBerry and mobile phones with the ability to mass text message or chain text message to everyone in your contact list, and that's what happened. So that became the modern clarion call and pamphlets hearing if you like, for a protest on the beach. So it was something we'd never experienced before and certainly not part of the risk assessment P.

I would imagine like with the technology coming in, because it made it broader. Before people couldn't communicate them the mass way that they did with the text messages. But I take on board what you're saying about the media. If they grab that headline, they can fuel the fire and fuel the anger, and then then the nuhers I'll call them nothings that come out of the would work, the extreamers that come out of the woodwork and think, let's get on this.

I would imagine like with the technology coming in, because it made it broader. Before people couldn't communicate them the mass way that they did with the text messages. But I take on board what you're saying about the media. If they grab that headline, they can fuel the fire and fuel the anger, and then then the nuhers I'll call them nothings that come out of the would work, the extreamers that come out of the woodwork and think, let's get on this.

That's why the people at Cronulla are very angry locally that they've been stigmatized and blamed for all this because, like you know, what was a local simmering situation, and look, there's no doubt about it. There was a lot of acted in the community existing there and I don't think you're ever going to see something like this without it, and most definitely the behavior that was occurring on the beach down there. But you know, I've said that it's not about racism, and it was never about racism. And interestingly, the first quote in the book is by a Lebanese barrister who says that it wasn't racially inspired or motivated, but it was racially badged. We say that because like back in the fifties and sixties and seventies, you had groups like Rockers and Sharpies, then Westies and then Bankies coming from the western suburbs to the beach at Cronulla. As Carl said, it's the only beach with a train line of a weekend. And you know, there was fights on between surfers over the exact same issues. It was about behavior and about misogynistic comments to young girls, and it was about just they dressed differently, they act differently, and it's about chest beating and male pruning and dominance of the spatial domain down there and those sorts of fights that occurred. But back then it was all Coolcasians fighting each other. So fast forward to the early two thousands when the young Lebanese Muslim youth turned up there, and we're doing exactly the same thing. So when it used to be like f Off's West Is, fof bank Is, fof Sharpies and say forth, when it became f Off labs a racist, you're all racists.

That's why the people at Cronulla are very angry locally that they've been stigmatized and blamed for all this because, like you know, what was a local simmering situation, and look, there's no doubt about it. There was a lot of acted in the community existing there and I don't think you're ever going to see something like this without it, and most definitely the behavior that was occurring on the beach down there. But you know, I've said that it's not about racism, and it was never about racism. And interestingly, the first quote in the book is by a Lebanese barrister who says that it wasn't racially inspired or motivated, but it was racially badged. We say that because like back in the fifties and sixties and seventies, you had groups like Rockers and Sharpies, then Westies and then Bankies coming from the western suburbs to the beach at Cronulla. As Carl said, it's the only beach with a train line of a weekend. And you know, there was fights on between surfers over the exact same issues. It was about behavior and about misogynistic comments to young girls, and it was about just they dressed differently, they act differently, and it's about chest beating and male pruning and dominance of the spatial domain down there and those sorts of fights that occurred. But back then it was all Coolcasians fighting each other. So fast forward to the early two thousands when the young Lebanese Muslim youth turned up there, and we're doing exactly the same thing. So when it used to be like f Off's West Is, fof bank Is, fof Sharpies and say forth, when it became f Off labs a racist, you're all racists.

Okay, So you're saying that the issue was about the let's call it tribalism. It might not be the right word. But the locals with people coming into the beach, and I know, like I lived Inland and I served and I copt that sort of the ship when you're going to the beach on the Northern Beaches, So I know what you're saying about that, and then you're you're making the point if I'm understanding it, that Yeah, this incident occurred and it's been badged as racism, but it wasn't as simple or as simple as apps.

Okay, So you're saying that the issue was about the let's call it tribalism. It might not be the right word. But the locals with people coming into the beach, and I know, like I lived Inland and I served and I copt that sort of the ship when you're going to the beach on the Northern Beaches, So I know what you're saying about that, and then you're you're making the point if I'm understanding it, that Yeah, this incident occurred and it's been badged as racism, but it wasn't as simple or as simple as apps.

Perhaps given an individual example. We have work health and safety laws now that are very attuned to inappropriate conduct at a workplace. So if you so something sexist or racist, misogynist as an individual, you have rights and there are consequences. So, yes, people said some misogynistic, sexist and racist things for which there is an accounting from one side. We've tried to make it as transparent and give accountability for what was said and done on the other side. But when you look at societal misogyny, tribal racism and sexism, there's got to be more than we're going to make your beach safe by stopping the misogynists or racists.

Perhaps given an individual example. We have work health and safety laws now that are very attuned to inappropriate conduct at a workplace. So if you so something sexist or racist, misogynist as an individual, you have rights and there are consequences. So, yes, people said some misogynistic, sexist and racist things for which there is an accounting from one side. We've tried to make it as transparent and give accountability for what was said and done on the other side. But when you look at societal misogyny, tribal racism and sexism, there's got to be more than we're going to make your beach safe by stopping the misogynists or racists.

There needs to be.

There needs to be.

Deeper explanation and so what, yes, we concede there were racial things and sexist things, and misogynistics said and done and quite violent reactions to the other. What motivated it? So, yes, if you get threatened or you feel uncomfortable as an individuals, sometimes you might blurt out in the workplace or in a public place something that is labeled correctly as sexist or politically deviant or morally unacceptable. But if a whole large group do it, there's something else going on. You can't just say that big chunk of three hundred people are all racist. And so we delve deeper and we came to the conclusion that when people feel threatened, they react deviantly, morally, politically, racially or in sexual derogatory terms. And what it invited Garin. This is the challenge for many from our book. Far from celebrating our multicultural Australia, we should be wary of it, respect it, understand it, acknowledge it, but celebrate what we have in common. How are we the same? For example, Jihad Dib, who's now a minister in the Men's government, he said, I don't have an Anzac story, but do you think I don't love barbecues and going to the Beach. Do you think I don't feel as Australian as everyone else just because I'm not connected to the Anzac story doesn't make me a not It doesn't make me not an Aussie. So we concluded far far more was going on in the minds that form the groups that cause the conflict between each other, and far more likely it was about could we do more? Should we have done more as a society to have found what binds us.

Deeper explanation and so what, yes, we concede there were racial things and sexist things, and misogynistics said and done and quite violent reactions to the other. What motivated it? So, yes, if you get threatened or you feel uncomfortable as an individuals, sometimes you might blurt out in the workplace or in a public place something that is labeled correctly as sexist or politically deviant or morally unacceptable. But if a whole large group do it, there's something else going on. You can't just say that big chunk of three hundred people are all racist. And so we delve deeper and we came to the conclusion that when people feel threatened, they react deviantly, morally, politically, racially or in sexual derogatory terms. And what it invited Garin. This is the challenge for many from our book. Far from celebrating our multicultural Australia, we should be wary of it, respect it, understand it, acknowledge it, but celebrate what we have in common. How are we the same? For example, Jihad Dib, who's now a minister in the Men's government, he said, I don't have an Anzac story, but do you think I don't love barbecues and going to the Beach. Do you think I don't feel as Australian as everyone else just because I'm not connected to the Anzac story doesn't make me a not It doesn't make me not an Aussie. So we concluded far far more was going on in the minds that form the groups that cause the conflict between each other, and far more likely it was about could we do more? Should we have done more as a society to have found what binds us.

And I think common ground?

And I think common ground?

I think the consequences of Cronulla were the two communities found those bonds, for example in the Lifesaver program.

I think the consequences of Cronulla were the two communities found those bonds, for example in the Lifesaver program.

Yeah, I'm really interested in that.

Yeah, I'm really interested in that.

I think they've done a lot more. Muslim leadership, leadership at a political, social, religious level, have been searching for ways where we can understand each other better. I think we learnt something out of this.

I think they've done a lot more. Muslim leadership, leadership at a political, social, religious level, have been searching for ways where we can understand each other better. I think we learnt something out of this.

Yeah, well, I'd like to think some good has come up of it, because it's a situation that no one was happy that occurred. That if some good can come from let's break it down.

Yeah, well, I'd like to think some good has come up of it, because it's a situation that no one was happy that occurred. That if some good can come from let's break it down.

If someone comes up and pushes you out of the way, most folks, unfortunately, might be inclined to make a comment about their skin color. They're a male or a female, or have a beard, or have a pink dress on or a pink shirt. But that doesn't mean they're deeply motivated by that. It's just there was an incident, they felt threatened, they said something, they.

If someone comes up and pushes you out of the way, most folks, unfortunately, might be inclined to make a comment about their skin color. They're a male or a female, or have a beard, or have a pink dress on or a pink shirt. But that doesn't mean they're deeply motivated by that. It's just there was an incident, they felt threatened, they said something, they.

Should and react. There's a lot of it. Say, we understand what happened with the text messages, and I just talk about talk about the text messages and from your book the quotes with the text messages. But before I do, I really take on board what you say about the media escalating it. There's a responsibility that comes in media, and I've learned that in the last couple of years working in the media that you can feel discontent and yeah, if something's given badge as a particular thing, or the headlines are given you, if it bleeds it leads that type of thing, you can cause problems with it. But these text messages, like there's no ambiguity about the text messages. And I'll read them out from both sides, so we're hearing it from both So from your book just some of the quotes, I'll do the Caucasian text messages sent by Caucasians or we're assuming Caucasians. Ozsi's this Sunday every fucking ossie in the Shy I get down to North Cronulla to help support lebon Wog bashing day. And then we've got one from Middle Eastern. All lebo Wog brothers Sunday midday must be at North Cranulla. These skippy Aussies want, well, bring your guns and knives and let's show them how we do it. Then there's one. And these aren't the text messages responding backwards and forwards to each other. These are the ones that have been sent out on a large scale from the Caucasian side. Bring your mates and let's show them this is our beach. And then never welcome. Let's kill these boys. And then from the Middle Eastern fight each ossi you lay, let's get hectic and turn God country in the wogs country bid we'll be cooking victory kebabs after. Tell all your cousins like they're inflammatory, aren't they You've read that. Who's a knucklehead that's been sending those out? But you send them out to Is it fair to assume the majority of people caught up in the escalation of revenge attacks and the violence on the day were young males. Yes, so this type of communication and I take on board what you say, Mark too. It's social media that we hadn't really experienced before. But this was virtually a call to arms from both sides.

Should and react. There's a lot of it. Say, we understand what happened with the text messages, and I just talk about talk about the text messages and from your book the quotes with the text messages. But before I do, I really take on board what you say about the media escalating it. There's a responsibility that comes in media, and I've learned that in the last couple of years working in the media that you can feel discontent and yeah, if something's given badge as a particular thing, or the headlines are given you, if it bleeds it leads that type of thing, you can cause problems with it. But these text messages, like there's no ambiguity about the text messages. And I'll read them out from both sides, so we're hearing it from both So from your book just some of the quotes, I'll do the Caucasian text messages sent by Caucasians or we're assuming Caucasians. Ozsi's this Sunday every fucking ossie in the Shy I get down to North Cronulla to help support lebon Wog bashing day. And then we've got one from Middle Eastern. All lebo Wog brothers Sunday midday must be at North Cranulla. These skippy Aussies want, well, bring your guns and knives and let's show them how we do it. Then there's one. And these aren't the text messages responding backwards and forwards to each other. These are the ones that have been sent out on a large scale from the Caucasian side. Bring your mates and let's show them this is our beach. And then never welcome. Let's kill these boys. And then from the Middle Eastern fight each ossi you lay, let's get hectic and turn God country in the wogs country bid we'll be cooking victory kebabs after. Tell all your cousins like they're inflammatory, aren't they You've read that. Who's a knucklehead that's been sending those out? But you send them out to Is it fair to assume the majority of people caught up in the escalation of revenge attacks and the violence on the day were young males. Yes, so this type of communication and I take on board what you say, Mark too. It's social media that we hadn't really experienced before. But this was virtually a call to arms from both sides.

Chain was the first time there were chained texting, and so there were texts sent in their thousands, but often to groups of people that passed it on to groups of people. But I think one thing we do make clear in the book area is there needs to be something before a message telling you to do something motivates you. No one turns up in protests because Alan Jones talked it up on your show. Daily Telegraph ran a front page about a lifeguard being belted, So there was that kernel of resentment intentions, and then the pervasiveness of the message was off the charts compared to what had happened in recent years. Thousands and thousands of these messages and then the rest is history.

Chain was the first time there were chained texting, and so there were texts sent in their thousands, but often to groups of people that passed it on to groups of people. But I think one thing we do make clear in the book area is there needs to be something before a message telling you to do something motivates you. No one turns up in protests because Alan Jones talked it up on your show. Daily Telegraph ran a front page about a lifeguard being belted, So there was that kernel of resentment intentions, and then the pervasiveness of the message was off the charts compared to what had happened in recent years. Thousands and thousands of these messages and then the rest is history.

And you've got people, and I'm taking on board, you've got people from outside coming in coming into coming in to represent Cronulla and coming in to represent the Middle Eastern side that weren't really associated with the original incident.

And you've got people, and I'm taking on board, you've got people from outside coming in coming into coming in to represent Cronulla and coming in to represent the Middle Eastern side that weren't really associated with the original incident.

They've brought bored into the irony. It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious? Is that a lot of the reasons why Cronulla Crop cops image is because of non locals coming in and stirring it up. Another unfair element of this awful image that did not warranted.

They've brought bored into the irony. It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious? Is that a lot of the reasons why Cronulla Crop cops image is because of non locals coming in and stirring it up. Another unfair element of this awful image that did not warranted.

Understand on the day mark, with this simmary and building up, when did you start to when did you start to become aware of Okay, we've got something something brilliant here. When was that sort of acknowledged and accepted.

Understand on the day mark, with this simmary and building up, when did you start to when did you start to become aware of Okay, we've got something something brilliant here. When was that sort of acknowledged and accepted.

Look, there'd been simmering issues at the beach, which you've already discussed, and there was already an existing proactive police operation going on down there to deal with that. And then, like there is with all these rights and things around the world, there's a flash point. I think you only got look at the Paris rights, and that was a couple of kids who got electrocuted I think in a particular suburb, and it.

Look, there'd been simmering issues at the beach, which you've already discussed, and there was already an existing proactive police operation going on down there to deal with that. And then, like there is with all these rights and things around the world, there's a flash point. I think you only got look at the Paris rights, and that was a couple of kids who got electrocuted I think in a particular suburb, and it.

Went from there. The next minute, the whole Paris is burning, you know.

Went from there. The next minute, the whole Paris is burning, you know.

So the flash point in this was the assault on the lifeguards, but you know, the simmering tension underneath and bubbling to the surface.

So the flash point in this was the assault on the lifeguards, but you know, the simmering tension underneath and bubbling to the surface.

People had enough by then, So that was the final straw.

People had enough by then, So that was the final straw.

Okay, And then so we're already aware of it, and I'd been speaking to Superintendent Robert Redfern, who was the local area commander at Cronull there about the forthcoming beach safe operations and so forth that sometimes I was a regional commander, so all those local commanders report to me.

Okay, And then so we're already aware of it, and I'd been speaking to Superintendent Robert Redfern, who was the local area commander at Cronull there about the forthcoming beach safe operations and so forth that sometimes I was a regional commander, so all those local commanders report to me.

So just to explain that to people listening, I understand and Carl obviously understands. But you as a regional command to sit over the top of all the local area commands.

So just to explain that to people listening, I understand and Carl obviously understands. But you as a regional command to sit over the top of all the local area commands.

That's correct, and then like twenty or something local commands under me. So if there's needs to move resources between things for special operations and all that sort of stuff, that becomes a decision at my level.

That's correct, and then like twenty or something local commands under me. So if there's needs to move resources between things for special operations and all that sort of stuff, that becomes a decision at my level.

And so those sort of things are under discussion.

And so those sort of things are under discussion.

But once that flash point occurred and it was subject to the media, it was so normally the Kernala area sits at a low risk on the community Tensions Risk Assessment scale, and so we asked the local command to look at that. And then after that very first assault, it immediately came in as a medium risk. But then the media started and then the text messaging started, and we've already discussed that about how much that was and how at that extended the scope of it.

But once that flash point occurred and it was subject to the media, it was so normally the Kernala area sits at a low risk on the community Tensions Risk Assessment scale, and so we asked the local command to look at that. And then after that very first assault, it immediately came in as a medium risk. But then the media started and then the text messaging started, and we've already discussed that about how much that was and how at that extended the scope of it.

So how did you guys become a way of the text messages where you you became aware of the magnitude and the nature of the text messages.

So how did you guys become a way of the text messages where you you became aware of the magnitude and the nature of the text messages.

Well, a lot of parents were reporting it to police because all their kids were getting it.

Well, a lot of parents were reporting it to police because all their kids were getting it.

It was targeted at youth, and and youth to youth.

It was targeted at youth, and and youth to youth.

That mean if you hit your contact list and kids were stupidly passing it on to their others, friends and so forth. So it was growing and it was it was well known to us that it was occurring and the media and then you know, the media were printing what was contained in these text messages.

That mean if you hit your contact list and kids were stupidly passing it on to their others, friends and so forth. So it was growing and it was it was well known to us that it was occurring and the media and then you know, the media were printing what was contained in these text messages.

It which inflators never ending round circle.

It which inflators never ending round circle.

You'd have to have been on Mars not to know something was about to happen. So as Minister I knew, Marcus Assistant Commissioner, you we prepared for it. But all that build up was almost like the air was crackling with static electricity.

You'd have to have been on Mars not to know something was about to happen. So as Minister I knew, Marcus Assistant Commissioner, you we prepared for it. But all that build up was almost like the air was crackling with static electricity.

But then feel it. But then there was a second incident down there.

But then feel it. But then there was a second incident down there.

And look even beforehand after journalists in Sydney were walking around Cronulla trying to create a story, looking for something, looking to film a fight between a Lebanese guy and a lifesaver or a Caucasian and another incident occurred on the esplanade down there and a cameras jumped all over it and it ended up the media got built it right and a camera smashed and the police were called and so forth, and then that then escalated again and the media really went to town. Then you know, look, it's true, we've got another example of and I think there was some lifesavers involved in that as well, off duty, and local passes by and local people, and it was like that was portrayed as a second attack on Cronulla and the lifeguards and the whole beach culture, and it was really really blown out of proportion. Again, So at that point, that's when that's when they're really wrapped up the text messaging and.

And look even beforehand after journalists in Sydney were walking around Cronulla trying to create a story, looking for something, looking to film a fight between a Lebanese guy and a lifesaver or a Caucasian and another incident occurred on the esplanade down there and a cameras jumped all over it and it ended up the media got built it right and a camera smashed and the police were called and so forth, and then that then escalated again and the media really went to town. Then you know, look, it's true, we've got another example of and I think there was some lifesavers involved in that as well, off duty, and local passes by and local people, and it was like that was portrayed as a second attack on Cronulla and the lifeguards and the whole beach culture, and it was really really blown out of proportion. Again, So at that point, that's when that's when they're really wrapped up the text messaging and.

The amount of media and stuff.

The amount of media and stuff.

So we had a meeting amongst the senior commanders and we overrode that risk assessment that was at that time medium, because these risk assessments take into account like is they're going to be a terrorist incident, is there going to be an explosion?

So we had a meeting amongst the senior commanders and we overrode that risk assessment that was at that time medium, because these risk assessments take into account like is they're going to be a terrorist incident, is there going to be an explosion?

And risk of those sorts of things is of course low, but.

And risk of those sorts of things is of course low, but.

Risk of public order and disruption, assaults and those sorts of things is like high, if not extremely high. So when all balances out in those days, there was no part of that risk assessment that had anything to do with text mass text messaging or the amount of media that was generating in this public order incident. So we overrode that risk assessment and rose it to high risk. And that's when I, as a region commander and Assistant commissioner, that means that as a high risk incident, I then take that over personally, take it over personally conduct the planning.

Risk of public order and disruption, assaults and those sorts of things is like high, if not extremely high. So when all balances out in those days, there was no part of that risk assessment that had anything to do with text mass text messaging or the amount of media that was generating in this public order incident. So we overrode that risk assessment and rose it to high risk. And that's when I, as a region commander and Assistant commissioner, that means that as a high risk incident, I then take that over personally, take it over personally conduct the planning.

So we re met and bought in a hell of a lot.

So we re met and bought in a hell of a lot.

Of specialist resources and experts in public order management leading up to it to redo a plan based upon the high risk assessment and brief the Deputy commission of SCIPIONI at the time and Commissioner Marine that had been raised to high risk, and the Minister and Premier Maurice Yemma came down to Cronulla and spoke to us and we briefed them on the fact that I had been raised a higher risk and therefore that's the reason I have now taken it over personally and then gave them an assurance that the police resources that we were committing to it and then we all did a media press release warning the public about the intended police response to it on the beach that day.

Of specialist resources and experts in public order management leading up to it to redo a plan based upon the high risk assessment and brief the Deputy commission of SCIPIONI at the time and Commissioner Marine that had been raised to high risk, and the Minister and Premier Maurice Yemma came down to Cronulla and spoke to us and we briefed them on the fact that I had been raised a higher risk and therefore that's the reason I have now taken it over personally and then gave them an assurance that the police resources that we were committing to it and then we all did a media press release warning the public about the intended police response to it on the beach that day.

So appropriate in the circumstances to give an indication of what sort of responsibly if the actions get out of hand. From a political point of view, KRLA just fascinated that the premiers involved yourself as a police minister meeting with police. What was your feeling from a political point of view on what was going.

So appropriate in the circumstances to give an indication of what sort of responsibly if the actions get out of hand. From a political point of view, KRLA just fascinated that the premiers involved yourself as a police minister meeting with police. What was your feeling from a political point of view on what was going.

To Firstly, I should mention the wider international local context which folks, younger folks don't even know about, but you and I Mark would well recall. Firstly, Task Force Gain like probably twenty very seriously violent Lebanese Muslim criminals had they been on the street. Goodness knows where this could have gone because the public were aware that the police and the government had responded and locked those men up. Then you had the scaff brother gang rapes, shocking crimes. Then, of course Muslim attacks on tourists in Bali and the London bombings as well, in both in two thousand and five, so there was a broader international local context. Sadly, for the Muslim Middle Eastern community, it was like they were attacking Caucasian Australia. They weren't ridiculous, but there was a broader context.

To Firstly, I should mention the wider international local context which folks, younger folks don't even know about, but you and I Mark would well recall. Firstly, Task Force Gain like probably twenty very seriously violent Lebanese Muslim criminals had they been on the street. Goodness knows where this could have gone because the public were aware that the police and the government had responded and locked those men up. Then you had the scaff brother gang rapes, shocking crimes. Then, of course Muslim attacks on tourists in Bali and the London bombings as well, in both in two thousand and five, so there was a broader international local context. Sadly, for the Muslim Middle Eastern community, it was like they were attacking Caucasian Australia. They weren't ridiculous, but there was a broader context.

But from my.

But from my.

Perspective as the local police minister, I felt we were in good hands. The Premier and I are very concerned about what I said. You could hear that, feel this crackle in the air. Something was going to happen. But we were reassured with justification. Of course, dissent was quelled, order was restored, Peace return to the suburbs and streets of Sydney, and that awful fear people had for a period of time evaporated. Why did it evaporated because the police dealt with it.

Perspective as the local police minister, I felt we were in good hands. The Premier and I are very concerned about what I said. You could hear that, feel this crackle in the air. Something was going to happen. But we were reassured with justification. Of course, dissent was quelled, order was restored, Peace return to the suburbs and streets of Sydney, and that awful fear people had for a period of time evaporated. Why did it evaporated because the police dealt with it.

Yeah, And I think that's it's probably not fully appreciated how bad it could have gone. And we're going to talk about some of the things that followed up with the revenge attacks and some of the intel that you got. Talk us about the daymark. So you've got your resources, there's an understanding, you've got support from the politicians, you've got yourself, you're in control of the situation. Now talk us about the day of the build up for the day and did you have enough resources? Were you happy with the things that you put in place at that time.

Yeah, And I think that's it's probably not fully appreciated how bad it could have gone. And we're going to talk about some of the things that followed up with the revenge attacks and some of the intel that you got. Talk us about the daymark. So you've got your resources, there's an understanding, you've got support from the politicians, you've got yourself, you're in control of the situation. Now talk us about the day of the build up for the day and did you have enough resources? Were you happy with the things that you put in place at that time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, during the day, as I said, it was a barme summer day. You know, hot people just turned up their rubberinecking, which just.

Well, during the day, as I said, it was a barme summer day. You know, hot people just turned up their rubberinecking, which just.

In itself too doesn't help, does it when it's a hot because it brings people to the So you've probably got an extra fifty percent of people turned up that wouldn't normally.

In itself too doesn't help, does it when it's a hot because it brings people to the So you've probably got an extra fifty percent of people turned up that wouldn't normally.

Talks training, the wouldn't have been anyone, like most people.

Talks training, the wouldn't have been anyone, like most people.

Were looking at people looking at people.

Were looking at people looking at people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, And the reality is, like, you know, throughout the morning, it was like a carnival down there, you know.

Yeah, And the reality is, like, you know, throughout the morning, it was like a carnival down there, you know.

Like pretty much like Australia Day.

Like pretty much like Australia Day.

There was people walking around draped in the Australian flag with you know, the face tattoos of the Australian flag, and they're having barbecues and the back of uts and there's singing of the national anthem and all singing Matilda. And even look that this local surf club they've pret the CEO down there approached me and said, look, we've got a pre planned new surfboat to launch today. It's a big thing for the club and sponsors are turning up and then nippers were going to carry it down on their shoulders and it's going to be launched and stuff, we should we go ahead with that or cancel it? And I said, well, mate, you couldn't get a more patriotic crowd than when you got here at the moment.

There was people walking around draped in the Australian flag with you know, the face tattoos of the Australian flag, and they're having barbecues and the back of uts and there's singing of the national anthem and all singing Matilda. And even look that this local surf club they've pret the CEO down there approached me and said, look, we've got a pre planned new surfboat to launch today. It's a big thing for the club and sponsors are turning up and then nippers were going to carry it down on their shoulders and it's going to be launched and stuff, we should we go ahead with that or cancel it? And I said, well, mate, you couldn't get a more patriotic crowd than when you got here at the moment.

So that occurred and the crowd we're cheering on and blah blah blah.

So that occurred and the crowd we're cheering on and blah blah blah.

But you know, you don't see any of this in the media because it didn't suit the agenda.

But you know, you don't see any of this in the media because it didn't suit the agenda.

Gary, Could I yeah, I take on ball what you say, but could I just throw this in as a counterpoint that that patriotic display was people turning up saying well, this is this is our land, this is our beach, and yeah, the nothers and there were nothings out there saying you know, we'll fight you on the beach and that type of stuff. But could that be I'm just throwing this out. Could that be misinterpreted from the Middle Eastern side. It's almost like waving the flag.