I Catch Killers with Gary JubelinExposing our deadly reality: Dr Vince Hurley Pt.2
Once a child has seen family violence, it can’t be undone. It stays with them the rest of their life. Former detective Vince Hurley is working to end violence against women. From ankle bracelets to educating young boys, the criminologist joins Gary Jubelin to share how we can stop women being murdered.
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The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective sy a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to my chat with Vince Early, who uses his experience as a cop and an academic to identify and address issues relating to policing and the criminal justice system in a very pragmatic way. Are you happy with that introduction?
That's beautiful.
That's beautiful that I say it right, That's what you wanted me to say it. Look, obviously, Vince and I have history and we do joke around a bit, but I'm serious when I'm saying this to you, Vince, not the listeners that your opinion on law and all the issues do count. And I like you the view that you take on law and order, and there is so much to talk about. Your passion comes across as your Q and a outbursts that made you a YouTube sensation, embarrass your children, so many other things about crime I want to talk about. We left part one talking about domestic violence and the terrible consequences of it. I had a conversation with you before you came on, and I was talking about meeting Hannah Clark's parents and Sue and Lloyd Lloyd Clark, who are just such impressive people. People know the name Hannah Clark and the three children were set alight in a made a vehicle as a result of domestic violence, horrendous crime, and Sue and Lloyd have been campaigning. I think they part of the thing that they campaigned for was the introduction of coercive control. I've had them on the been fortunate enough to speak to them on the podcast, and we're talking about domestic violence, and I made the point to them. I said, if the offender was forced to wear an ankle bracelet that notified Hannah if he was in five kilometers, because there were indicators there something bad was going to happen. You could see it. It was building up, and I think that was what everyone's frustration was. Ankle bracelets. Criminologist X cop you've got opinions on law and order. I just struggle to understand why we don't utilize ankle bracelets. And I just think it's such a simple process that if the victim and the perpetrator, if the perpetrator comes within five climbers, ten klombs, whatever radius you want to set, and the victim is notified that person is in the area, it might give them some peace, It might give them some comfort. During COVID, the crazy management of that, we managed to track where everyone went in the country. Get your thoughts. Why can't we adopt ankle bracelets? Am I looking at it too simplistically?
No, you're not surprisingly. No, Yeah, you're right about being a serious issue, but it's just my sense of humor.
You were never funny. That's why that's why your career ended. You've got thrown off a roof. Do you reflect on why that person threw you off the roof?
No, but I will on the way home. Ankle bracelets. There's a couple of things. And as we spoke about a couple of weeks ago at Rainbow Lodge, it's amazing. How as to former police, you know, I've seeing the pit of humanity, how your views change about life and about crime and things like that. And it would be tragic if our views on life and crime didn't change. That's what individuals are So ankle bracelets. I won't give the exact number because I know exactly how many there are in New South Wales, but we're not talking about hundreds. Unfortunately, ankle bracelets are used for medium to high risk offenders who have been identified for violent domestic violence. So there's a couple of things. There are going to be offenders like that bloke in Queensland and I won't mention his name who, for whatever reason, you will never be able to prevent from murdering Hannah and the children. There are just recouncilor and says you would well know that's what jail's for, thank god. But no matter if she was wearing an ankle bracelet. Having read the coronial report, I don't believe that that would have prevented him ended up killing her. If not, then then then.
Later could I just pose that there what say he had the ankle bracelet. He's been charged with offences and very strict conditions that if he comes within five kilometer radius and he breaches those conditions, And I hate mandatory sentencing, and I'm sure you're of the same view. Every case needs to be adjudicated, but there will be a sentence. And then he gets out and he's got that bracelet on again. If the bracelet gets cut off, he's back in jail. If he comes within five kilometers of her and it's not justifiable as in a pure accident, he goes back to jail. Couldn't that circumvent it?
Yes, it could. The thing that people have a look of ankle bracelets is that as you and I know that they get cut off. Secondly, the offender, they will let the battery run out. It has to be charged. It's just like a mobile phone. It has to be charged, and the battery has to be recharged every I don't know how many hours it is, but it has to be rech out. So if the offender lets it run out or run down, even accidentally, and I know this has happen, been in the past, then they can't be tracked because there's no signal being given out.
But okay, and if that's the case, he's breached it again and he gets charged.
Yeah. The other thing that they do, and I'll answer the point exactly in the minute, they wrap it in ol foil so they can't be tracked, or they'll put it in another vehicle and that someone will drive out to Whoopwarp where they'll lose its signal. So if you look at the East Coast of Australia, most of the tracking is on the East Coast of Australia because there's a lot of mobile phone towers. But if you went inland, it'd be totally different. So you're right. So if he had breached that for sure, arrest him, lock him up and you know, just throw away the key. A surprising thing. And I actually know a man and I won't say who it is that actually wears one and it's not for as crimes of violence, but nothing for domestic arguments. And he was saying that his partner when he goes within a buffer zone wherever that he is, and it goes off and she goes off with her to let her know. It actually causes her a bit of anxiety because she knows that he is in close proximity, whether it be coincidental or not, But she also draws strength from that knowing that there is a degree of a buffer zone there. But the problem is that there are only x amount and there's lack of corrective services staff to be able to honor the ankle bracelets you would need. And I don't crape on this figure, but I think there was last year this year twenty one thousand breaches of a ABO. Even if you had ten thousand ankle bracelets, it's not going to be enough and you need people to man that. But I totally agree, you know, any damage to the ankle bracelet, cutting it off, whatever, they should have a mandatory sentence. Absolutely.
Look, I know it comes down the resourcing, but yeah, and finances, fiscal everything comes into play. But to me, I know, if someone was stalking me and someone was going to kill me, and that person's got a bracelet on and I've got a monitor that lets me know if that person's come, that would give me a peace of mind. And if it did go off, he's not going to get me unprepared. So I just I think technology, we've got to we've got to embrace it. And I get frustrated because I saw when we're told things can't be done during COVID, that poor bloke that went and tried to buy a barbecue tracked all around Sydney. Yeah, it's possible. So I get I'm starting to sound like you on Q and A. How stupid do you have to be? Sorry, I'm getting whipped up, but it's true. Yeah, I think there's something there that we've really got to. Okay, how do we address it. We've talked in part one about helping men retrain or focus on development so they don't go down that path, but short term do that. Yeah, and you don't get a bracelet first time. Some it's an offence, but then it escalates second defense. Bad luck, buddy, you're wearing this bracelet. I don't care if it embarrasses you when you're at the beach.
Just a good point, because that's a really good point because if the Bosco News Bureau Crime Statistics Research put out a report earlier this year on its effectiveness, and they are effective. And one of the things that said, which Nely choked on the weedis was that men are worried about being stigmatized, and I thought, well, since when has it ever been about the men being signatized? Who cares? Yeah?
Yeah, well I think so, And let's make a bright orange right person, it's really embarrassed. Yeah, but anyway, just a thought. Juvenile crime it's yeah, it's in the media. Got hold of that. That's a topic of discussion. But that does really appear that there's a lot of problems going on with juvenile crime. Criminologist x cop, university lecturer and all round good guy. Sorry, just check him the notes. How can we address juvenile crime?
So, as a father of four teenage children.
Ankle bracelets.
Absolutely, not one, but two and went around their neck.
Ah.
Look, juvenile crime it always seems to be out of control. Whether that's fact or whether it's or media, it's hard to know. Certainly lowering the in Queensland to having the age it was criminal responsibility at ten. I think it's just appalling. I just think that ten is just is.
That what they're looking at?
Yeah, yeah, if it's not already law.
Okay, explain that to the listener.
What that So that means that if So generally speaking, when a person commits a crime, as we know that they have the sufficient maturity and intellect to note what they're doing is wrong. Exceptional circumstances, someone suffering mental health issues for example. So if I am sixteen and I go out and covores an arsenal murder someone, then the law says that I have the mental capacity to understand the motive and the intent and the consequences of my actions. So what Queensland has done has the age of criminal responsibility has been lowered from fourteen to ten. So that means that a person who is fourteen, if they go out and steal a car or do shoplifting, the law says that they know it fourteen the difference between right and wrong. They've got a moral compass. But now in Queensland it's been lowered to ten. Now, to my mind, as a father of fourteen aged children, a ten year old child does not have the developmental capacity or maturity to understand and the consequences of their action. Yes, they might know it's wrong to steal or to break in into a car or steal a car, but do they understand you know, the consequences that might flow from that. So what they're saying is that someone who is ten should be held fully responsible to the law and punished by the law because they know what they're doing is not only wrong, but it has an impact on society, which I think is.
Just that's it doesn't seem well, it doesn't sit well with me, and even if there is a problem, you're not fixing it by yeah. So you're looking at the ten year old Yeah, that's yeah, and you don't comprehend the consequences of your actions age.
And just actually taking that similar point. So we talk about intergenerational trauma and violence and domestic violence. So I was speaking to a woman a few weeks ago who was in who was in a violent relationship and has left her ten year seven Yeah, ten year old son during the relationship started belting the seven year old sister. Now, she made the valid point, and it's true that he didn't he didn't know why he was doing it. He was mimicking his father's behavior. He knew it was wrong, but he didn't know he didn't have the mental maturity COMPREHENDI yeah, to know that it was wrong. And now she's worried that he'll end up like her father. So when we talk about criminal responsibility and mimicking behavior, no one at the age of ten you can can fully comprehend, as you rightly say, the consequences so well.
Partly Queensland's move, it sounds like a political move. We're getting tough with lower the age of the criminal responsibility custody with kids. I have a bad, a real problem problem with that. And I know they're the form of the views, but I really have a problem. A diversion there programs I think is much better, much better for a child. Your thoughts on that, once you put them in the system, it says so not just their self esteem, but then the people they're looking up to the older boys in the system and look at them, they're causing problems. That's what I'm going to come out and be a real criminal.
If you'd asked me that when I was like Mount drew It in the nineteen eighties, I wouldn't have cared less. I would have gone. We had a saying, and I'm almost a shame I tell the kids in classes. Kids, almost a shame to say. But when I went to Mount drew It in nineteen eighty one, which is pretty well placed they said we never went We had a saying we never went to work, we went to war, and straight away the mindset at the time. Yeah, And if you'd said to me about a ten year old child at men drew It or Saint Mary's or Blacktown or Penwuth, where I spent most of my career, I wouldn't have cared less. But now it's maybe because you're a parent and you look back and you go, wow, you know the things I should have done or could have done. But I think that you're right putting children. Look, it's a fine line.
I understand the society's got to be protective.
I understand that, yeah, and we also understand that the kids have to be held responsible. There's no doubt about that whatsoever. But you're right about it's being a political issue about locking up children when you rightly say that they're versionary programs in place. Now, I think and I don't I didn't look at this, but when I was at the Drug Summit, there was a figure quoted, and I don't quote me on this, if I'm going to say publicly, I think that for every one dollar spent on rehabilitation, it saves the government something like five dollars or seven dollars. But the problem is that the governments don't because we mentioned political cycle, they don't say a short term result from that. But it needs to be a long term investment. I think any parent who raises children know it's a challenging time. But you're right. Kids have to be held response for their actions. And just going back to the point I made earlier about when I speak to the children at school and at UNI about domestic violence, take the word domestic out of it. Boys need to be told that you just cannot hit women. It's just not on, no, and you have to be blunt. And having twin sons who are eighteen, they are different from their sisters, and I think boys have to be told blunt, you just cannot bloody well do it. It's just not on It's just under no circumstances cannot be done. And boys, I think are hard wired and I could be wrong, differently from women. It needs to be a clean message. And even when you and Guess came back to the earlier point about moving the word domestic from the violence, when you talk to the kids at school and at UNI, even the word sexual violence, they focus on the word sexual rather than the violence. But we know why they call it sexual violence because that's the way that the Crimes Act defines it and it adds an extra layer of you know, depravity to the So again with the boys, it doesn't matter how young they are, you know, you know, there need to be boundaries. They need to be told you just cannot hit women under any circumstances.
Well, the role model is so important in yeah, a young young boy's life, and yeah, you've got to set the standards. But that's the type of thing that we're looking at with diversionary role models. Role models are critical. The amount of people I have sitting in here whose life has gone off track, has turned their life around because of a good role model, or you say, where it go wrong, they had no one steering them in the direction I think the figures are And again don't quote me on it might have even come out in one of these speeches at Rainbow Lodge. To keep an adult person in custody over twelve months is one hundred and fifty thousand, juvenile is two hundred and fifty thousand. That's a shitload of money that could set up some really good programs. People who have got the lived experience, people who have gone in the dark side or done the bad things and come out and having these kids look up to them and tell them this is not the goal. You can get the trade. You can be part of society and self esteem. Self esteem is what they see with a lot of kids that go off track. They haven't got a good self esteem because of the environment they've grown up, even education. How many times and you would have seen it in the cops when you've got some poor blake you're charging with an the fence and he's too embarrassed because he can't read all right, yeah and yeah, things like that, and so they lash out. They lash out at school because they're having trouble reading and writing, so they deflect from it by getting into trouble and send out of the class.
Yep, yep, exactly right. Literacy is amazing. You wouldn't think in twenty twenty five or twenty twenty four to twenty five that would actually be an issue at all. But it is surprising just talking about people going off track. It's interesting that if you took that bloke who was at Rainbow Lodge who gave that talk, he would be a fantastic role model because of his life he is outstanding. So he obviously speed off the track and did whatever he did and now he's a role model. So if a person, a child is raised in an environment of violence as domestic violence, and even if they come out of that, if they're being exposed to it long enough as a child and they're brought out of it, the slightest stress or trigger in their life after that event could easily spear them off the rails into a life of crime or drugs and alcohol and violence. So when we're talking about the formative years of children, it is really so important that even if they are removed from that environment, the damage is saying because once you've seen domestic violence or violence, you can't undo it. You can't undo it. And those poor kids who see it, who are terrified by it, it stays with them for the rest of their life.
Got to break the cycle and the things that we talk about. It's about getting smart on crime, not tough on crime. And you know, when you speak to victims and victims that have been through the ring and I've lost loved ones, if you reduce crime, you reduce victims. So that pub talk, Oh you're gone soft. You going soft non crime. If you reduce crime, you reduce victims. That's a smart way of approaching it.
Yeah, and not only that, like crimes coming down in society for decades, and of course of the media cycle. You know, the media pick up on it. And I asked the studness in class, is crime going up or down? And they always say crimes going up? But in actual fact it's coming down. Even though it's coming down, it's still not acceptable. But you know the Yeah, the impact and the cycle of violence and how kids are speared into it. But it is, you know, you and I and many people you know, we hear the rhetoric. And I used to believe it tough on crime.
I used to believe I know what you're saying. So I'm just not owning up to it. But I know how ignorant you were early in your police career. Yeah, let's stop them away the key.
Yeah, like having decriminalization of cannabis. So I was at the drug Summit. I am surprisingly for it to a point. I mean a massive fan of pill testing. I think that it should be a health issue. I'm not saying that. For example, someone at a music festival If they've got one tablet for that'say, okay, But if they've got five or ten, obviously that's going to be a supply issue. And I'm not certainly not saying that, you know, drugs should be allowed to come into the country freely. No way, It's absolutely no way. But I think that the reality is that there will be a portion those we know people that always use drugs, and if that can be managed from a health perspective, that's great. I actually more worry about the mental health impact of cannabis for schizophrenia than I actually do about any other crime aspect of it. And the notion that you know, cannabis leads to harder crime that leads that doorway open. It's just it's an urban myth. It doesn't. It just doesn't. It doesn't do that.
But you're raising the issue of the pill testing, and I know, if any teenagers I know are going to a concert, I'd prefer to have that than not have that because of the tragedies that can happen. Okay, we've talked about crime, let's talk about policing. Contemporary policing. Why not just in New South Wales. I think it's across the country, and I think it's overseas as well. We're having trouble attracting people to policing. What what do you think that's about. What's your sense of that.
I think, first of all, I just think it's part of it is just the nature of the the what's the word I'm looking for, the temporary nature of employment now that people go from job to job to job to job.
Just before policing was a vocation.
Yes, it was a vocation, it was a career. I also think that because of the fear of crime, so people fear crime more than the reality of crime. It's because people fee crime. People would never walk down a dark alley, but in actual fact, probably nothing will ever happen to you.
So the fear of crime is worse than the reality of crime.
So when you talk to parents, and when I talk to students, and I talk to you thousands over the years, Ah, the policing is dangerous. But I say, policing is not that dangerous. It's it is, but you don't get thrown in at the deep end. You know, you're trained, you're not left on your own devices. So that notion that crime is out of control, I don't think really attracts individuals to the to the organization. I also think that adverse publicity doesn't really really help. One can go into whether there's good or bad leadership in a police organization.
One could vent.
Bloody. One could go into whether it's good or bad leadership in the organization which in there and reflects upon people's attitudes whether they want to go in. I also think that emerging economies, you know, like the gig economy, it is not emerging, it's already here and renewables. But I just think that I don't I think the police or take that thing at Kuma just tragic, that just beyond comprehension. That does not do anything to attract people to the police.
Well, that one event, and we're talking about one event, that's right, the elderly lady that was a taste and die as a result. And I think it's a matter that's just come before the court and there was a verdict. So we won't go into the exactly what happened because I don't think the sentencings occurred at this stage. But I look at incidents, and you've looked at a lot of critical incidence. I oversaw a lot of critical incidents, and I think there needs to be better training for police. Yeah. I won't break it down because it's quite frightening when you talk about how often you get to use your weapon and training and all that. But surely with the type of job that we're doing, or we were are doing as police officers, more money should be put in the training you want. You want quality over quantity.
Yeah. Yeah, And I was talking to Darren Bennett, yeah the other a few weeks ago actually, and he was saying, you know, it's the people coming through the door. If you get the right people coming through the door, then the organizational issues aren't as as as big. Now, that's that's an obvious statement to make. But the point you made earlier about people getting accepted and then those being rejected, and when there's a shortage then bringing those other people back in, it doesn't that's not a consistent benchmark. And whilst it might in the short term politically seem palatable for the electorate and for the commissioner or whoever it is, down the track, when the politicians and the commissioner go, then the organizations left with this legacy of them trying to mold bad individual not bad individual less suitable individuals into something that the organization really does want.
So and like even in the probo, we have that probationary period, and you know, and I know there's people there that should not be police officers. You can you can tell it a mile away. Why do they call a probationary period and they get through?
Yeah, well that's yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And I think this comes also down to the industry relations laws, and the onus is upon the organization to prove that Vince Hurley was incompetent and Vin Turley was very incompetent.
That's why you were That's why you were flowing thrown off the roof, and then you didn't have to go through in dustrial relationship. Sorry, it's tragic and I shouldn't be laughing at it. Did you scream on the way down?
Actually? To be honest, I was on the ground and I just am I allowed to swear. It's on the ground on it and I fractured my left leg and my skull and I dissipated my shoulder and I'm lying on the ground and I'm thinking, oh, this is fucked, this is fucked, this is not this is fun. I'm getting to old to chase pea half my age. But yeah, so I was not in a good place. But anyway, we're not laughing at you.
We're laughing at We're full support and we're just trying to say, wow, we can't get police and you are discussing, well when I got praying off the roof. Look, I love it as a career. I know you enjoyed your time there. I enjoyed that. It saddens me that they're struggling to get resources. Pay increase. Yeah, but there's a lot of areas that need money going into it. What worries me that will attract people just for the money. And I like to work with people. When I was in the cops, I like to work with people that weren't focused on promotion, weren't focused on how much over time I can get. We're focused on they were passionate about their job. That's the only thing I worry about. With this huge pay increase that New South Wales Police have got, You're going to have people that stay in there that's not really interested in policing. They're just taking the dollar or encouraging people to go there that are not really interested in policing.
Yeah, look, you're right, You're right. I was staggered with the pay increase. I couldn't believe. I thought I misheard it when I first read. I did, but I would have walked in on my crutch as I said, no, no, but I couldn't believe it, Like that's a phenomenal increase. I'm not saying that. I mean we were poorly paid, you know, in the eighties, but you never joined, as you rightly so for that particular reason. But you know I would. I would, Yeah, probably an unsurprising comment. I would rather see that money going to drug and alcohol counseling or mental health, automestic violence, because if you can prevent that, as we know, then be less police. I went, as I said in the eighties, I went with a bloke name of Chris Clark Shadow and we're working at Mount to twenty domestics in one night. Now, admittedly it was in the nineteen eighties and you just churned through them, but that you know that that massive increase in wage. I think you know, as we said earlier, if that could be put into diversionary programs or something like that, it would have to you wouldn't see an immediate thing. But if we're talking about generational change or even a decade, it would have to be more beneficial because people will coming to the organization, as you say, they'll joint X amount of time and then leave. But if that money was put into drug and rehab and you get better role models, then it would have a better impact on society.
I like to see police people want to do it because they're inspired by working with those people. You would have had people you looked up to. I looked up to people, and I'm just thinking, I want to try to emulate what they've achieved in their career and the type of people they are. I think that's so important that in policing, and I just yeah, I've been away from it a long time too, so I'm mainly looking from the outside. But it just saddens me that people aren't putting their hands up because I still reckon it's the world's greatest job. That's in saying many different things and the rewards that you can get from it, and it's a difficult job now, Like I understand it's difficult now because the exposure and the criticism if someone does something wrong, they're exposed publicly because we make mistakes and you just you learn from your mistake and move on. Yeah, you mentioned the leadership. I don't like the we've got the commissioner now, Karen where I just get the sense that she's not being supported by her own organization and that that troubles me because I know the internal politics in the in the cops, how they climb over each other, and that saddens me because really, when you're out of the cops, you realize the public don't give who is no superintendent or who is this or who is that? They don't care. You think within the cops, everyone yes, who's going to be the next commissioner? People don't care, but they just want the police to do their job. On that, I often get asked about what makes a good police force, And the way I look at it, look at the police your public servantcy. You're there to serve the public. So when you talk satisfaction in regards to police, are they delivering what the community they're serving expects? Is that a good way of assessing that it is?
It is? And I also think that that's an interesting point because so when we talk about confidence in policing, and how do you make sure that people are satisfied. First of all, when we're talking about, say, closing the gap every time, and I never thought of this at the time, it's easy to say now in hindsight, whatever you do with the First Nations people or someone from culturally diverse background, every time you deal with them and give them tend their needs, you're giving them what they want the expectation. That is part of closing the gap. So everyone has a responsibility to do that. But I also think that there will never be unfortunately enough people of First Nations or culturally diverse background in the police because it just doesn't attract individuals generally. And then even those minority groups are never going to be wrecking what I'm looking for. I'm not going to be represented because they just don't attract those individuals for whatever reason. So from the very beginning, I think there's always going to be a gap between what people expect from culturally diverse background or from First Nations and what the organization can deliver. But I also think that you're right, it's just you know, what would it's not even giving a level of service, it's just you know, informing someone or say, well, if that person was my mum, what would she expect?
Yeah, that is so simple, so simple way. I well, you would have heard me when I'm talking to detectives training detectives that treat the victims like you'd want your family to be treated. It's a simple concept.
It is it is, yeah, exactly right. But I can also understand, and I'm not making excuses. I can also understand that you know when you went to a domestic and I would be ashamed now to think how many times you know, and as a generation, how I didn't meet the expectations of people. But even now, I think sometimes people overlook the fact that when a police officer goes and speaks to some a victim, they don't care if that police officer and they don't know it's just come from a cot death or a fatal motivaticle accident. So I'm speaking to you as a victim, and all you're worried about, and understandably so, is that Vince Earley gives you meets your needs. But sometimes expectations of what the police can do all hie and that the police can't meet it, or your expectations are not realistic. And you don't know that because you've never had anything to do with the police before. And Vincehurley comes to you at two o'clock in the morning and I'm fatigued because I've been out for ten hours driving around and then you go, well, he didn't seem very interested. So I can understand from that perspective. And that's not an excuse, it's just human nature. But you're right that if you police were just more compassionate, and probably some of them aren't. But it's going back to the very first question of it. I think the very beginning, you know, what is the expectation, what is the role of the police in society? And I said, you know, it's to be a referee, but it's to have a degree of compassion at the same time. But you know, I think that you know, when I joined and when you joined, it was a different mindset to what it is now.
Yeah, it's definitely definitely changed, but I think the core values need to stay stay with it because otherwise it becomes problematic. And because as you identified that people have assured the career they go in five years of police, they walk around, go to the next next thing. You want to attract the people that are really passionate about their job, and it doesn't matter which it could be all I don't want to encourage them too much, but they do do an important rob job. Passionate highway patrol officers. But you've met them and they're as passionate as you and I were as detectives doing what they do.
You need that, Yeah, And I think actually that's a good point. When you think about the people that have a contact with the police. There's only for four groups offenders, victims, witnesses, and those pulled over by the highway patrol, and they are the largest percentage. So the straight away, the stereotypical or the mindset, well I got pulled over by the highway patrol. They're representative of the rest of the police. I mean, people will always if I want to join the police, they will want to join the police. But generally speaking, everyone's concept of what the police are is, you know, is amplified by the highway patrol or by the media.
That's that's their exposure. Speaking of media, the role of media in policing, what's your take on that look looking from an outside this point of view, Now, yeah, I think it's.
Good and bad. I can only I can honestly tell you Gary, if social media was around when I was in the police, I would have been sacked. I would have been absolutely sacked. But we're looking at it retrospectively now and people coming into the organization would be more tact sevy tech sevy and would be aware of, you know, the media around about around policing.
What was questioned again about media and policing and the relationship between the media and the police and the changing landscape with social media.
So I think that when I've given interviews on TV or whatever, they always say to me before we start, or we wants a ten second grab, and that's what they concentrate on. And they'll take words that Vince Early says either out of context and they'll use that or they'll keep it as is.
So the media, when you were telling the politicians they are absolute jokes. That was taken out of context.
Well, maybe not that way. So I'm so proud to say that I've interrupted, but that that's a good example because that whole clip was compressed. I said more than that, and I went on to actually talk more about those particular issues, but that was compressed for social media. That's a grab, that's yeah, and that's a grab that they want. Yeah, it's been of benefit for a whole host of NGOs. But I also think that the media and everyone says this, and it's true, they have a responsibility to portray both sides. Because one of the questions I asked in an assignment is that is it true something along the lines off to the students, is it true that the media portrayed police in a good light or bad light? And is it necessary to do that? And they really come up with interesting answers, because yes, police I have to be held accountable for what they do. Social media is fantastic that, but it's also can be a prejudicial to the police. It can also be prejudicial against the police as well. So social media is just unwieldy beast. And I'm not on social media at all for that reason because it just doesn't never raise.
But it is a changing landscape and the media and the police had a very close relationship. When we're in police and the media, we're getting the information leaked to them, and that it was I had an issue and I still have an issue that quite often it's a positive news story for the police. There's certain journalists that would beholding to the police, giving them leaks of information, and it frustrates me stories that I know, investigations. I know the whim toural matter has played out so devastatingly in the public for so many different people, and it's been misinformation. And I think there's a responsibility on both sides. But I think the police need to be accountable for their actions. If there's criticism, well you've got to copy it. You get the compliments if you do something good. If you do something bad, you got to cop it. But I see the police just so risk adverse or getting criticized. Whereas and I reference Boarable. You know, the Commission of SCIPPIONI came up there and to the Bearable community. I've been trying for ten years to get a commission to come up there, and he came up there and he said, sorry to the community, we could have done better. That's acknowledging it. And that helped the community at that time. So that meant so much to them. Little things like that. And I don't know why the police don't put their hands up sometimes and just you know, okay, we could have done that better. Then you can move on from it.
Yeah, and not only that, the public, no, the public no, you know, just like you know, it's just like the politicians get asked a question and they give an answer, and they think that the answer might be smart or they don't address the question, but the rest of the world knows what the answer is. It's just like, you know, what's that saying that the emperor wears no clothes or something?
Yeah?
Yeah, yeah, you know what is wrong? We've sort of putting up your hand and say, look, I'm sorry, we could have done better, but you're right. They are so risk adverse that it becomes almost boring and predictable. And even that notion of being risk averse doesn't attract people to the organization because it makes it the organization look so bland. What is wrong with getting up and say well, I'm sorry, we got it wrong, because the punter at home knows that it's wrong, and they can say, I look at the politician or the police officer and or whoever it is, the commissioner and say, well, why don't you just say we all.
Know it's what's wrong with it. I know we could manage it better, and I think they better get their act in order, because like with podcasts and all that, Teachers Pet and other podcasts and even the one that's running at the moment on William Tyrell Witness William Tyrell, it's not just towing the police line and making people calling the question what's gone on with an investigation? Gone are the days where And I'm not just talking New South far as police, I'm talking across the board. Law enforcement agencies can control the media because it's gone. It used to be that way, but it's not no longer that way.
And you know, and just an interesting point because the media policy or we used to know, you can only comment on facts and speeding and things like that. Even now, when you know, the police get up and they talk about a particular issue, it is very factual. But there is no like humanity or there's.
No no personality. And I think when we look at how are you attracting police when everyone's just standing up and talking like a dummy, that sounds like a really good job. Inquiries are continuing, we expect an early arrest, like bring some life to it. Yeah, yeah, exactly right, mate. Yeah, maybe maybe that that attracts people, but yeah, I just so saddened by the fact that we're not getting people because the more people wandding it into the police, the higher the bar can be. And then one thing for credit to New South Wales Police, but it was about time and you know, having worked down the academy, the ludicrous situation where you had to pay to go to the academy and now at least the intake they're getting paid, that's going to attract a better group of people.
You're right, and in fact an actual your spot on as well. I was going to make earlier and I forgot to mention it. You're right. Why would someone who wants to do a job go and have to pay hex fees to join an organization?
It just it did not make sense.
A tradee doesn't pay.
I've had so many good people approach me and say I was going to join the police, but I couldn't afford because I've got young children that couldn't afford to pay the time down the academy, good people that you know, would have made excellent police officers, and we've lost them.
Fear that that once they get to there, they fill their vacancies. Yeah, I think it will revert back. That's I know that's my that's I have no idea.
We'll get you back on my catch killers and you can have one of your rants and raves in your twenty seven b and YouTube views because you've lost your shop modern policy and you mentioned AI. I look at AI. That will be a tool in investigation, like because you know, I imagine set it up right, there's breaking entwers, you're looking at methodology. You scan it within thirty seconds, it's come back. Okay, there's a similar break and enter. It's what thoughts on AI?
Love it? Love it? A big early adopter of it.
Easier when you're at a UNI student.
Not that they would use AI no, of course, not act to use it.
Well that I've wondered about that. But you've got to let them have axit. That's a resource like when we used to go to the library and borough a book. You know, it's a resource that's available. So it's got to be a leader in there. Imagine having people go through UNI and not know how to use it AI.
Oh that's right, yeah, I mean I'll get backtrack in a minute. But I've got friends set on State and Commonwealth in interview panels for government jobs and one of the questions that many government like common work government jobs will ask if they get to an interview is what is your AI literacy skills?
Yeah? Okay, so that's a question.
Yeah so And all the big like KPMG and Pross, water House Coopers and Ey they already they asked those questions about the students. What do you know about AI? And you know, what's your literacy skill? Can you tell between good and bad? But I think that it has benefits obviously, and it has disadvantages. The thing with AI is that it is because it's Microsoft. For example, open ais was initially owned by Elon Musk and he sold it, not sold it, but he works with Microsoft. That's why it's on our computers and Microsoft it's US based. So all the information is from the Northern Hemisphere. So if we type in something like some research on suicide by cop in Australia and it came back with information which was incorrect about Australia because it's all the Northern Hemisphere based. So that's the first thing that people have to understand is when they use it. Primarily it comes from scraping the web of all the Northern hemisphe few information, so that's the first. That's the first danger or pitfall of it. The second thing with AI, and it concerns me. There was a case in Ohio might have been last year, year before or anyway in the States where there was a police used AI to identify an offender. So they visually identified him, but they didn't know his name. Then they used AI and they put the name and the name was correct, and went to court and the matter. He was convicted for purchasing a handguard I think it was, and then it was actually thrown out later on it was challenged on the basis of AI that AI was used to identify the offender.
So they they had the face. Did you say all that they had the face.
They had the face, and they didn't know his name, okay, So they used AI to identify who he was and they AI identified him correctly as Gary Jubilan. So then they went around and arrested him. They didn't arrest him initially. It's a long, long judgment, and then they went around arrested Gary or this this handgun purchase. Gary pleaded guilty, went to court, and I can't remember what happened to him anyway, After you pleaded guilty. The defense Sorry, yeah, the defense appealed that decision based on AI, and he was Actually the conviction was quashed. The reason was quashed is that when you use AI, there's a thing called the black box, a notion or a concept that is used that when you type something into AI, you don't know how that answer is arrived at. So because you do not apply any critical analysis to that answer, you're accepting that answer to be one hundred percent correct based on what and you.
So you're breaking that down in simplistic terms, you've got no reasonable suspicions exactly right.
Yeah, there was no independent critical thought or analysis or independent identification of that individual, and it is set a precedent in the US.
Okay, that's that's interesting. It's going to be interesting times on how that how that plays out. I think with AI, we're fortunate in that where we've got to at this point in time, we've learnt our skills. So if we use AI, we can sort of assess it pretty quickly because we know what I asked AI to do. A fact sheet on the murder. I could scam through and go, no, that's not what's needed in there. People who maybe don't develop those skills because AI is so readily, readily available. But I think it will be fascinating. Like technology in policing too. It's change. I think it's a harder gig being a crook these days and it was back back in our day because of all the advantages we've got. You did a paper or you did a talk on drones. Yeah, well, and that interest man, I'll.
Just go back to AI for sake. So when I gave a talk recently about AI and policing, someone in the audience said, well, you know, it's got to be good for identification of a weapon, for example, or clothing or a scar or a tattoo, And I said, yes, it has. It's placed there. But I also see it as a bit of a danger because you don't want the weapon to be so similar. You don't want it to mirror the weapon, because if you identify the incorrect weapon, for example, the matter could be tossed out. So AI can be that accurately cloned, is that it narrows the ability of the individual to identify it, like a lineup if everyone is too similar looking. Yes, it has to be similar, and you have to be able to justify the selection of the individual. But I think I worry about AI cloning things that are so identical that it's hard to say to it. It's hard. But also from the fact that if you get into the witness box, I say, Vince Hurley, now explain to us about AI. How did your ride at that decision? What did a I do? Fuck?
I don't know how I am And you will be exploited that way, won't.
Absolutely.
Defense barrass is going to jump straight in on that.
So why would you introduce AI into a brief where you don't know much about it yourself, and but you know that it's going to cause controversy. So I think, yes, absolutely.
Will it will evolve. But I remember when we're looking for a suspect. We've got a suspect on a case, and I go through the cops records and find out what we've got to have someone look for that, and then some young smart ass on the strike forces go, oh, this is where he lives. That's a picture of his house because they're on social media, and yeah, that how did this happen? But I would imagine it'll evolved like that. It will become it will become a time, it's something and I like to think law enforcement we stay ahead of the game if we can, so hopefully it plays out plays out that way. Winding back to the drive drones, Yeah, what.
Look, I think drones are going to be as common, if not already common, as the car on the road. The thing that with drones is that now take carry wheland matters. That's finished, isn't it that? Yeah, that's well and done and dusted. So if memory serves me correctly at some stage, or aerial surveillance of him, Now, there was a person in a helicopter, in a poly helicopter which was out of view of things, and they surveiled and surveilance helicopter says, you know, it's quite common, and he had the visual image of that individual. The thing with drones is that it has a visual image of that individual. And I could be sitting at the aviation command at Bankstown managing it. But drones have a limited life span and they're not They are subject to bird strike, just like planes aren't. But also the wind can affect their their clarity on the particular target. Now just like Pollie, they can't the target can't necessarily see the drone, but it saves immense amount of manpower, and for crime scene as you would well know, but also for surveillance of individuals, for dropping off resources or something to an individual. The biggest thing I think the police are going to face is the CASSAR regulations, so they have to comply with the Civil Aviation Authority regulations about flying drones. And given the churn of police in the organization, everyone has to be well not everybody, but they have to be continually trained as a drone pilot to keep pace with that. So they use it. As you know on my brother's a surf Life Save up in Queensland, they have an individual who does that for sharks and the same thing can be applied to that. But it can certainly save a lot of staff and manpower with the use of drones. My only concern would be that if something happened to it, even though it's been back, if something happened to the drone, because it worth about a million dollars each once new so far as police have, if it was damaged or compromised, then you know the possible possible kind of nuity of evidence possible, yeah, possible conomuity of evidence.
I was just interested in that because just before the end of my career on a and I won't mention the investigation with his high profile and looking for someone walking through the bush and seeing where they went, and we didn't have the capabilities to track this person. And I made I said, well, we've got those drones that get up there and look at crime scenes and all that. And I've done some work with media where they've got drones hovering over your head and we use that, use that drone, And I just thought that it just opened a whole new way of doing things police wise. Exciting time for policing. But we're not in it anymore. No, you got off the roof and I got frown under the bus a good way. Who would have thought our career has ended that way when lecturing detectives. But you know what I find and I've loved the chat, and I reckon, I'm going to get you back on because next time you snap, I'm going to get you straight back on the next day and find out what what set him off this time. But I like the fact that the way you look at crime and look at crime not just black and white good guys, bad guys. You're looking at it and making a difference educating people on it and the fact that you enjoyed your time in policing, because I really like sitting down with someone that it didn't end the way we thought it. We're even twisted it, but not better and twisted and can enjoy it. And you know, I can ask you the obvious question, would you recommend joining the police?
Look, I loved it. Yeah I do. And even even as students at UNI say, I tell them it's a fantastic job.
It is.
It's genuinely a great job. It's you see the best of humanity and you see the worst of humanity. Every day is different. I would, yeah, I would. Any of my children, I would recommend it. And when I speak at open days to you know, eight hundred parents, invariably I'll get some parents who put up their hand and say, would you recommend, And I say, yeah, I said absolutely, I would recommend it to my children. I'd recommend to anyone. And it is it's a great job.
Okay, we're going to just cut that and that's going to be a neicement for policing. Policing in this country. Vince, thanks so much for coming on. And I'm not joking. We will get you back on because I'm sure you're going to stuff up somewhere and go off on a tangent. But the work that you do is very impressive and you're always good fun. When our paths crossed, it.
Mate, I just want to say thanks so much for the opportunity. It's been fantastic and you know, yeah, look, it's been a wonderful journey for both of us. And you know, back in the mid nineteen nineties, who would have ever thought we would have ended up here. But yeah, it's just been great and thanks for an opportunity. It's been absolutely fantastic. Cheers, thanks, mate.
Vince always bore the smile to my face, and I like his opinions on all things that law and order. He's got those streets smarts, he's got a sense of humor, he cares, he's passionate, and he's also a bit of an academic. So it was really good sitting down having a chat with doctor Vince Hurley. I think he's someone I might get back on here because I'm sure he's got some other opinions about all things law and order.
