Everything you want to know: Gary and Andrew Pt.1

Published Dec 28, 2024, 4:00 PM

Why did Gary join the police? Why was he kicked off a plane? Why was he attacked by dogs during a covert operation? Who are the dumbest crooks? In this end of year special, ex magic mushroom dealer Andrew Hamilton is asking Gary Jubelin the tough questions. This is everything you wanted to know - and nothing is off limits.


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The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life. The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. This is going to be a lot of fun. Or I think it's going to be a lot of fun.

Today.

As a Christmas special, our producer has come up with an idea, how about we let someone else host I Catch Killers. So we had a choice of people, and the person that we've picked is Andrew Hamilton. You might know that name. It's a former guest on I Catch Killers. Stand up comedian that did a bit of time in prison for selling mushrooms of all things. He's a funny guy. I've got a lot of time for him, and I'm handing over the reins of I Catch Killers to Andrew Hamilton. I don't know how this is going to go, but he's got a list of questions from listeners that have sent in and he's got the floor. I'm nervous, and I'll explain why I'm nervous, because I've got here in the studio with me Andrew Hamilton, former guest on I Catch Killers. You might recall a stand up comedian happened to do a little bit of time in jail for an issue over mushrooms, something along those lines. Our producer on I Catch Killers decide that it's been a hard year, a long year, and we get a lot of listeners say they've got questions that they'd like to put to me. And Emily came up with the idea, why don't we get Andrew Hamilton back and you can hand over the reins to him to run EYE Catch Killers and he can ask you the questions. And I'm the guest, so Andrew be kind please.

The hunter has become the Hunter, Gary, it's great to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me on. I had a lot of time, a lot of fun when you invited me on as a guest. I still have people messaging me now that listen to that podcast, And you know, I think one of my favorite things from that was I was talking about my time in jail and my time as a drug dealer, and you were laughing at some of it, but then you kept having a break and be like, just to remind everyone what he was doing was illegal.

Don't try this at home type situation. Yeah, So that was the best.

So it was great to be back.

I guess I wanted to start by asking you because I as a comedian, I have people all the time that come up to me and want to tell me their favorite of my jokes and ask me questions about comedy. But when you're out in public, must be mostly people coming up to want to talk about homicide.

You being a cop, yeah, generally speaking, pretty.

Grim to constantly be talking about.

It's heavy, But I spent a long time as a homicide cop and even hanging out with the victims families, and that you've got to find some light in that darkness because it is a dark world, Like you can't what's your job? My day would start when someone has been murdered. You're looking at the body. So it's a heavy, heavy topic, but people are interested in it. But you can talk about it with a respectful way. And I always preface when I'm talking about homicide. It's all right to find some light in the pain because it is pain. That's what what's homicide's about. But yeah, people do have a fascination about it. It's better than someone coming up and saying you're a cop. I've got a speeding ticket the other day, or talking like that. I can't do those conversations. Rather talk about a homicide than petty side. Yeah I got a ticket when I was only going you know, five k's over. I don't want to hear about that. Yeah, I've got my own problems with the tickets.

Well, one of my biggest pet beaves with the law right now is when they as signs that say you can't eat in this smoking area.

That they have at pumps.

Well, there there must be the kind of gripes of people talk to you about you know this is not really my area.

Well, exactly right, You're a placement. Can you sort that out?

Well?

Are you intending to eat the meal there?

Or?

I know it's funny. I like rules because this sounds weird. I like rules because it keeps society in line. But I only like the rules I like, and I push back against authority sometimes of the rules. I think they're ridiculous. So I'm not just talking smoking their COVID Dare I talk that word? That frustrated hell out of me when we're going through that for a couple of years. And then the people making the big calls were the ones in power, and power corrupts and some of the decisions that were made with COVID just I just I wanted to protest. I wanted to march down the street.

Yeah.

Well, there were people that you know, lost their jobs that were cops because they refused to get vaccinated. And I think, yeah, the whole thing was a mess.

It was a mess, and whether I saw, but it was that that power, and i'd see the politicians. You know, we used to get the eleven AM briefing and what we're allowed to do. I called it the head master is going to speak to us, or the head mistress is going to speak to us, it felt like I was back at school.

A lot of people do get into the job in blue because they are massive sticklers for the rules. Though, I think I when I first got out of jail and I was under house arrest, I was dating a girl who is a corrections officer and we were hitting it off and for a couple of months before she realized that I was in an ico and so she was like, oh, and I'll lose my job if we continue this, right, And I was like, come along, like you know firstly who no one needs to know. Yeah, but yeah, massive stickler for the rules.

Well that all fizzled out as quickly as it started, as that was a lost love. Yeah, I don't know you want to talk about, but it was.

I was just like that was what I was showed me Like, Yeah, people that can get involved in either being cops or corrections officers usually like.

They love a rule and they'll stick to it.

I had a rule when I was in quarantine at Parkley Prison. They only let you out of your cells for half an hour a day to make phone calls and to get some fresh air, but they and you would interact with other inmates in the quarantine wing, but all the inmates were all the different stages of the quarantine.

So I was on day two.

There were guys on day thirteen, and I try to point out to the guards that that defeated the entire purpose of quarantine, because if I'm coming in with COVID and I'm day two and giving it to a guy on day fourteen, he's better to go into a gen pop, you know, into the main yard.

But you're trying to introduce logic.

Yeah, And so I was.

That was one of my first lessons of being a boy in green, trying to tell the boys in blue how to do their job.

And they were like no, They just were like, you're an idiot, shut up.

Well probably, yeah, excuse me.

But then Parkley Prison had one of the biggest COVID outbreaks in the whole and every any prison of the country.

So what are we saying here? They should have listened to it and.

Told you so. Well.

I did write a letter to the governor trying to like point out these flaws that I saw in the whole COVID system, and then I got moved to Long Bay jailson after.

So I wasn't I'm sure You're probably the first prisoner that's ever complained about rules within the prison.

I said something to I was like, dear Governor, I just wanted to point out some errors in this bureaucratic labyrinth here.

Good word, use of the word.

I remember reading an article about like you saying why you got into the police force, And I think you know, when you were a kid you got into I got up to no good and that you know, you were in with the wrong crowd, and you saw this moment of a guy on the run being chased by cops and you thought that looked pretty cool, and you were like, oh, I wouldn't mind doing that and being involved in kind of good verse evil.

It seemed that simple to me. And I've got to say I didn't join for any noble reasons to make society a better place or any of that. I was working on the building side. I've been in a ceiling all day as an electrician. It was hot, that was all the inter war was up there. I was itchy. I was dirty and out there and just seeing two cops chasing the bad guy up the road, and I thought, yeah, that looks like fun.

See some of us probably see that same scenario and look at the cream and go. That looks like fun. Run on the rut.

I took the numbers. There was two cops one month. Crook went with the odds.

But I think you're totally right.

Where would you watch police movies, It's usually the cop has some glorious backstory about the reason I got into the forces because their dad got shot at liquor store or something, and they always wanted to catch the back guys. But the reality, I think is much simpler than that, is just someone needed a job, or they got into it because their family were already doing it or something like that.

The ones I think, and this is a generalization, one that thinks I'm joining the change the world or make the world a better place. I think there's a burnout the shelf life in that I learned that. I think I became that towards the end of my career, in that I saw what crime would create and the pain and the suffering from that. So yeah, I bought into that. But again generalizing any cops that I look up to, people that I respect, I don't know any of them that have joined specifically to make the world a better place. This looks like a cool job. Let's do that and see how that goes.

It's probably the first few years when you join the police force. You don't even guest says to that because you've been given them what the shit kicker jobs.

And it's so confusing. You go out there and domestic domestic situations. You're twenty two, twenty three, you've know nothing about life. They put a uniform on, you give you a gun, and then you're knocking on the door and there's a forty year old man arguing with his wife and the kids are there, and you're trying to tell this person how to behave themselves in their own own house. You do get thrown in the deep end that I started your old stamping ground. I'm still following up some unsolved crime hornsby the Pacific Highway. Yeah, the grid loot before the F three and all that. I'm wearing a uniform, and normally, if there's a break in the traffic, you run across the road. I didn't realize the power of the uniform because I did that like I normally would. There was a break in the traffic, run across the road, and all these cars slammed on their brakes, because there's a uniform officer on the highway. I'm just trying to cross away from the cross science. But yeah, it's an interesting experience. But I feel for people because you do get prone in the deep end.

Does it give you a bit of an ego when you realize the power of the uniform?

It can, But if you take the right look at it, it's also a little bit scared.

Yeah.

I think that there's so many instances of over policing. And I'm not a big fan of like a million sniffer dogs at New Guney station picking up guys with ten dollars a weed. But I think everyone's on their side when it comes to sovereign citizens these.

I'm always on.

The side of the cops when these people are saying that they don't have to obey the law because they don't they haven't signed a contract with the government and all this kind of stuff.

Mate, I know they are real try hards, aren't they, And they would be so frustrating and annoying. Where do you even start with that?

No one has sympathy with the sovereign citizens.

Okay, we're voting there now, all.

Right, let's get through some of these questions. We've got a lot of ones that people have sent through on Instagram.

What's the craziest story that you've ever had while policing.

Where do you start with that look. Policing you get in situations that you'd never expect to expect to be in. I was kicked off a plane to Pakistan one time, and that was doing escort duty, taking a prisoner back to Pakistan on a commercial flight. I was with my work partner, Jason Evers, and we're excited, like, this trip's come up. We're going to take this prisoner back to Pakistan and then we get to spend three or four days overseas and enjoy yourself.

The cops put their hand up for those kind of jobs because that sounds three holiday.

It was. It was back back in the day. It was something that if you got in they and they'd hire the cops because you had you knew how to control people and the different different powers. So basically, until the plane takes off, you haven't got a lot of authority, but in the air you're there, you're escorting the escorting the prisoner. We walked out of the homicide office and laughing at our mates and friends in the office, going we're off to Pakistan tonight and we're going to have a great time blah blah blah, and then we're going here, going there. I had the whole holiday planned work trip. The prisoner's handed over to us at the airport. We get on the plane. We're down the back of the plane, three seats. We put the prisoner near the window suit. I'm seeing the middle suait. Jason's on the right hand side. Jason's looking at what movies are on for the flight, because it's going to be a long flight, and the prisoner's tapping his leg just and getting agitated, getting agitated like that, and I've gone, this is this is not good because previously prisoners had gone to the bathroom and smashed the toilets up before the flight takes off, so therefore they can't get can't get de ported. So I'm talking to this prisoner beside me and going you're right, and he's gone, I'm going to get a toilet, And I said, you're not going to the toilet, and he's basically said, well, I'm going to piss myself. I'm going to do this, and carrying on. Got to the point all the passengers are getting on. I've said to Jason, we've got a problem here. Will take him, take him down to the toilet, and we won't let him lock himself in because that's when they smash it up and then the plane can't take off. We're down the back of the plane and this is how it's basically going. I've got the toilet door open. He's yelling out, I'm not a terrorist. I'm a human bean. At the top of his voice.

If you could.

Picture the whole of the plane turning up and looking and I'm going settle down, settle down. He started swearing, and Jason's doing his best standing in front of us, going nothing to see here is just afraid of flying. And this person's screaming out, I'm not a terrorist, I'm a human bean. I knew I'd lost the battle. And he's struggling, so we're fighting. I'm bouncing in and bouncing out and coming back in and trying to restrain him. And then he starts swearing, and I knew I'd lost the battle. At this point in time, I said, could you please not swear? There's women and children on the plane, and then the k pilot comes down is there a problem here. No, we got kicked off the plane that's pretty lonely placed at Sydney Airport at ten o'clock at night when you're waiting for your bags to come out.

I mean, how he's supposed to get this guy to point B if he's going.

To well this is like quite a few trips. I did one to to Paris and it was with my partner Pam Young, who I've seen at the time, So it was a great trip. Do you want to go to Paris for the weekend? Yeah, great, we'll go to Paris. And this French national had arrived at the airport and turned it on with customs or the federal police, and so he was going to be the poor that wasn't allowed into the country. They contact us Friday morning. You right to go to Paris this weekend? Yeah, okay, we'll do that. I'd been up on a murder investigation for hadn't slept for a couple of days. Pick him up at the airport. We get on the plane and he misbehaved the whole time. There was a stopover at Singapore. Pam had to get off with the passports. We've got no real power. Once we're in Singapore. It's a little bit of bluff and get off the plane. And then he's running around the plane for about two hours. I'm chasing him. He's only a little fellow, which was lucky. I'm holding him. Didn't sleep, satchels of sugar, he just kept drinking, like just eating, and it was just wide. I remember he had a Digiti do with him that was part of his property, which is quite strange. We got the Heathrow Airport. We hadn't slept now for twenty four hours because he misbehaved the whole time. And at Heathrow Airport, I'm pointing, pointing, because he couldn't speak English, pointing to the police walking around with their weapons, and I'm pointing to them and going, you misbehave you this is what happens. And I've got his passport and I'm pretending to rip it up in our broken English. He said, if I take him to the smoking you know the little fish tank smoking bays I had. I had to sit in the smoking bay with him for two hours. I didn't smoke. He's sitting there and smoking. Then we got him on the plane and got him.

He said, if you took him there he'll behave.

Yeah, he'll behave. So that was a fair compromise. But you get experience experiences like that, and like I've had a lot of homicide experiences. I also sung Happy Birthday to John Howard when he was Prime Minister because I was looking after him and I had to put in two dollars for his birthday cake. And there was only about five of Cinny's office singing Happy Birthday to the Prime minister. You don't expect to get experiences that. I don't know tide us. No, Actually I'm not the political leaning one way or the other. But I looked after him a bit and he was quite a nice man. But yeah, he's tied us. He made a chip in for his birthday cake or his staff.

Surely that's getting written off somewhere. Well, how do you explain that expense that one? Yeah, who's the dumbest crook you've ever had to deal with.

Actually, some in their dumbness are at quite smart because sometimes I come up with a real intricate interview plan or operation that Okay, we're going to do this, then that person will react that way, we'll catch him. There. Really complex plans have the briefing, got the whiteboard, do the whole thing, interview plan. I'm going to nail this person. When we get in the interview room and you go were you there? No, Well you show him exhibit. He's a fado of you actually arriving there, your fingerprint from being at the location. You just nail him on every single point. And have you done it? No, because he's agreen. Do you agree there your fingerprints? Yep? Do you agree that's a faith of you?

Yes?

Do you agree that's at the premises where the person was killed? Yes, you lay it all out and so you think, okay, the obvious next place one.

Why did you do it?

I didn't? Yeah, So they outsmart your. First time I arrested the prison escape from prison, I thought there'd be a dramatic like you see on TV and guns drawn, a heavy situation, which sometimes they are with escapees. But this boat, I've saw the come around the corner and he's just standing there. I said, should you be in prison? And he looked down embarrassed and said, yes.

See they're not all John Killick escaping in helicopter.

So I would like to burn on that case. And I know he's a made of yours and the maide of mine being a helicopter that shouldn't have worked, but at work, it's just unbelievable.

It sounds like something from a movie.

And even the Russian girlfriend and the hijacking the helicopter, it was perfect.

But yes, the most common cases, I think there would be ones where it's someone just breaks out of somewhere and then they caught within an hour or two.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's the thing. So you go in the You've got to laugh at some summer situations. Sometimes the crooks can laugh at the situation they find themselves in. So yeah, I keep an open mind. But there's a lot of different stuff in terms of dramatic things that I've been involved in. We were doing there was a drug plantation. It was only International Park and out near Wiseman's Ferry and myself I was running the operation. There was two other cops. We've gone out there and this blake had some attack dogs like big and shepherds or rot wheels or whatever around the plantation. We had to catch him at the location because it was on the National park ere it wasn't on his property. So we're sitting sitting there watching watching the movements, and you know, we parked the police car five kilometers away and crept in through the bush and we're watching and we've split up, and I'm with my one offs either and I had this younger detective keeping an eye on the premises and I'm sitting there. I won't mention his name, but Paul was the blake I was paired up with. And we're sitting there. All of a sudden, we hear this just growling and then yeah, just dogs sprinting for us. This is a COVID operation, so we couldn't scream like we wanted to scream. And we take off and we're sprinting, and I still remember it at the time, stood still. We couldn't pull out guns because we're trying to keep it quiet. We couldn't scream, even though it was scared, and we're running, so what is it. It's a muffled We're running, running through the bush. And then we get to this cliff and we've got nowhere to go, and these dogs are going to they're going to go us. And Paul and I looked at each other and we picked up two lumps of wood and we've just come at the dogs without screaming, and they're shit, these dudes are serious, and then run off. We see there. Shit that was close. That was so close. And then I hear three or four gun shots and I hear my name being called out, Gary, I've been shot, and Paul and I have looked at it, and then we've run in the direction of where the shots come and we're sprinting back to there, and my mate, he had come around the corner of the bush. We're sprinting and he's just covered in blood and he's just Gary and then collapsed and I thought, shit, what's happened here? What happened? The two dogs attacked him and he was wrestling on the ground and they're really going at him, and he's trying to get his gun out and he's got one trying to keep the dog off his face, and he shot it and shot sort of half his half, his hand off.

But through the dog as well.

Got the dog ran off like the dogs took off. So we're left there with our injured colleague and we're cars five kilometers away. We've got no communications. We've got portable radios, but this is before mobile phones, and so we've looked for a house and we're carrying. I've taken my shirt off, we've bandied him up, and we're looking for a house. Going through the bush. We found this house and you can't make this shit up. There's this lady and I think she was an alcoholic because we've come there. We've gone where police have got a bloke covered in blood bleeding, and we're gone. We need if you've got a phone, we need to use your phone. And she said, would you like a drink? And she went a drink, but can we use your phone? We ended up the ambulance wouldn't come in until the police came in and cleared because this blake had firearms, and so you get experiences like.

That, and I mean, that's lovely hospitality.

Well but I still remember remember that. And luckily my mate Paul, he was a nurse before he joined the cops, because our injured colleague was starting to hyperventilate. And you learn things too each day, because Paul said, is there a vacuum cleaner bag here? And I'm thinking, God, we've got the owner of the house wanting to drink. You're looking for the vacuum cleaner and just getting in the blow into a bag just so he wasn't hyper ventilating. So you have situations like that and tragic what happened. We ended up catching the blow, but you get paid for that. That's an adventure like it's it's exciting times it is.

How do you decompress after a situation like that? Because I would find I just want to go.

To the pub for a few beers straight after a situation like that.

Yeah, we do. And I've learned because I was involved in a couple of incidents and another one where a crook was shot and killed when I was speaking to him, and you get put in This is before people really understood post traumatic stress in the way people should be decompressed from incidents like that. So you get put in the room with all the cops sitting sitting around and a psychologists or whatever it'll come in and go, has anyone got a problem here? And all the tough guys and girls go no, no, so And that second not so much, the one where the cop was shot with the dog thing. I process that, but we did go out on the drink that night.

But what that's it. They just everyone's sitting a room going is anyone got a problem?

Everyone got a problem. Then you get dragged into internal affairs, like then you're getting interviewed like you've done something wrong, because that's the starting point. And then the one piece of advice they say, look, don't go out drinking and what just as it gets what they think the first thing is you go out and you get on the piss big time. And after that crooklet was shot and killed. I remember I went out, got on the drink, and you know, we're being tough guys, you know, okay, this is the world we operate in. But I remember I got home that night and I just I was going to leave the cops. I want to become a Floria still something. So it took a couple of days to process that.

Even these days we talk about opening up and it ain't weak to speak, but if you're in that kind of situation with a whole bunch of coppers and you've had that situation, they might as well say, as anyone here a pussy, because.

That's exactly how.

We interpreted that conversation. I'm really upset by that. It was rather the traumatic. Look, they got better now, like in homicide, we're meant to see a psychologist every six months and yeah with bravado, but it gave an opportunity where you could actually say, well, I'm doing a bit tough on things. So society has learned that you can actually talk about it. But sometimes, you know, getting getting on the drink was a good thing, and early days in the detectives that probably went too far. Like quite often, yeah, we'd finish the day and then there'd be a long lunch. It turns into a dinner and all that, and you got into that habit, but that was the day of the corporate lunches and all that. But some funny it's just making me think about some of the lunches as a young detective, and I think this is statute barred now or I can't remember the names of people even if they wanted me to come for a drink of the local Chinese restaurant, as you do as a detective on a Friday afternoon. And there's this boat sitting there. There was into state police down. There's a bloat there that was dressed in not the detectives of the outfit. And we're sitting sitting talking and he's gone up to get the toilet. I said, who's this boat? I know he's a prisoner, we're taking him back.

It was yeah, he's just moving around for really a little a.

Little bit loose, but those were the days and they had to change. But it was funny and the things that things that could happen.

Do you think that, like all your interactions with people that are constantly lying to you to protect themselves and also just the crimes you've seen, makes you a bit of a cynic. Yeah.

I don't know whether cynic's the right word, but I don't buy into you could sit here and look at me to you blue in the face going I didn't do it. I didn't do it. That doesn't mean a lot to me. I read body language and yeah, a bit of instinct, but looking at the facts with the instinct. But cynic in that if someone says they haven't done everyone's got secrets and you find that out and people are prepared to lie to protect themselves or protect other people. So a little bit cynical in that, Oh, but they said he didn't do it. I had some detectives. There's one particular detective, a young detective that came into the office and quiet saw the guy got a crook in there, and this is me talking like old school cop. But there's a crook in there that's done this job one hundred percent. And in work, his name's not John, but we'll call him John just for the sake of the story. John goes in there and you see the crook talking to him, and I'm watching, just seeing how he's going in the interview room, and John comes out and goes, I don't think he did it, And really, John, and so I don't think he Yeah, he's got a skill set that maybe didn't relate to being the detective. And then go in there and go, mate, you're saying that you didn't do it. We've got you on this this and that, Yeah, I did it. Looks like he's done it. So I suppose you learn a little bit, but sinning yeah, I'd like to think I'm not a synic.

Do you think that it's sometimes unhelpful having that perspective because you're dealing with people that are lying to all the time, that sometimes it can leak into your personal life or friends or family, that when you kind of catch him.

Out of a lie, you could probably let it go. But you're using your detective skills.

I have been and whether it's a domestic situation, family situation, or friends. I'm thinking, I know I've got the skills to break you down. Though it could be a harmless thing where your mate said, no, I didn't do it, and you're thinking, I could prove that he's done it if we got the CCTV, if we got this, got that there. There is an element of that.

You're at the pub, your mate says, you're gonna have to get the next round. I forgot my wallet, and you know for a fact you sort of bolts in his pants walking in, and then he's like, you're right, Gary, Actually I've got a gambling problem. I lost all my money, but I do have my wallet. You're right, you're happy now. I don't feel a better now that I've busted the case.

But you're right.

That is that is something. And I suppose in domestic relationships too, you've got that propensity to really break it down and go, oh that that doesn't quite add up. If I'm looking here and there, and the time when you go the timeline or whatever for a friend or family member, you know you've gone too far. But my kids they hated it because they thought the cops, as kids do I've got special powers. And you know, if, as you do as a young kid, you're going to lie to your parents. Now, I wasn't doing that. Wasn't doing that. You realize what they do for work. I do know, and that they think there's special powers that you haven't actually gotten. I've got some confessions that way from the how many.

How many times would their friends have been nervous about any kind of trouble that we're gonna get up to because like your old man's a cop.

My son got caught out big time in the one. Who've done a lot of things that yeah, I probably shouldn't shouldn't talk about. I was at one stage I was seenor person in Perth and I had a place up on the coast, on the central coast, so my house was empty when my son was a teenager and he knew I was going to Perth for that weekend. I'm thinking what would I be doing when I'm a teenager? I'll be when are you going dad? What time are you coming back? What flight do you on? That type stuff? And he never really asked me questions. So I'm thinking, my god, I've raised a nerd. He's not exploiting the situation of an empty house. Not until he got older. Eighteen nineteen, I'm finding out some of the parties that he had had at that house, and they were apparently legendary parties because Jubi's old old man has gone over the perth.

Wow.

So you were there thinking you're too smart for him, because otherwise he would give he'd be a dig giveaway. Yeah, but he was too smart for him.

And his mates say, remember the time we nearly dropped that and we had to clean this up and clean that up because I'd go through and go it doesn't look like they've done anything. But he got caught out big time. The classic. I'm staying at Matt's and Matt's staying here and so no one really knows where they're staying. And I got there was an armed robber craving havoc around Chatswood. So I'd been out till two o'clock in the morning. I'm driving home and there's this pack of kids in the coastal town where we were living, probably forty or fifty kids that have just some marked police car just driven. I'm driving up there and they swarmed around the car like a pack of sheep. They were just up to cause trouble, you know, thirteen fourteen year olds. I coached my son's soccer team, so I knew some of the faces. I'm looking around, go that's interesting. And then one of his best mates. I'm sitting there because they've stopped the car. I could couldn't do anything, and I've wound the window down and he stuck his head in there to say something will be funny, and he's just gone, shit, it's Jubo's dead. And I watched the kids just run and disperse. Jake's out all night. He's come home the next morning. He's walking up the stairs and he's not looking at me. Did you have a good night last night? And he's gone, I've been caught, haven't I? And I've got what gave gave her the way said the car. I was hoping that wasn't your car.

So my old man was a teacher at school in sa in Waronga, and luckily I'm the fourth of five, so mellowed out over time. But my elder sister was at a party when she was like sixteen, and my dad taught it the same school that she went to, and he went to pick her up and he realized that there was no parents a parental division party, and he knew all the kids the party, so when he went home, he called all their parents and my sister was like a you know, she was a leper.

No one wanted to associated after that. So that's a teacher. So I feel for that.

When you when your best mate's dad is a cop, you're like, oh shit, you know, we're gonna be careful.

You know, And I don't. I don't think they enjoyed it. I really really don't. And there was nothing cool about your dad being a cop, and theyre just and a couple of times when I was with them, I had to step in and you know, pull the badge on different things, and as you are at that age as a teenage, you just so embarrassed and they're just going, don't do this, don't do this, and okay, just wait here.

What are the cases that you would say that you're most proud of of the course your career.

Look, there's a lot of I've done some high profile, high profile cases. The cases that I'm proud of are the ones that I bought a skill set or the team that I'm working with, we bought the skill set to that matter to make sure that they get solved, and the ones. The longer you stay in homicide, you get to the point where you're looking for a challenge with an investigation. That sounds cocky or whatever, but there's some murders that are pretty easy to solve. Some of the things. I'm proud of it just where you get called out because there's a homicide detective. You're on call. So if there's a murder anywhere in the state, you get notified as a homicide team and then you get called out to that location. You might only spend a day or two there, but you're making some real hard, sharp decisions, and as a result of those decisions, it might be as simple as sees that car get the statement from that person. These matters get solved. They're the ones that I'm generalizing here. They're the ones I'm proud of. Bowerble Obviously it comes to mind, and this is one that people throw it back at me. You haven't solved it. It hasn't been solved by the courts, but I know I made a difference in that community, the indigenous community where Evelyn Clinton and Colin were murdered, and the way that they were treated at the start, and I came in on the reinvestigation. I'm extremely proud of that in that showing that yeah, we do care like people care. They taught me a lot about a lot about myself, a lot about the way I lived my life, and a lot about being a police officer. So many different ones that I'm proud of. I don't like to single them out because every life is so important, but in a general sense, the ones that you're told you can't solve are the ones that inspire me.

Yeah, are there ones where you kind of got close to losing hope? You're like, I think I just and then something clicked. Yeah.

Yeah. Murder of Barbara Saunders was the first, and that was back in two thousand and it was a lady that was shot at Normanhurst Railway stations coming home from shopping. And that was the first investigation that I led as a detective detective sergeant, and I threw everything I had into that investigation. I wasn't sure where it was going to go, and then we got a breakthrough after about four or five, six, six weeks and which led to solving the crime. I'm really pleased that pleased with that and that was linking crimes. It's an interesting story and I talk about this sometimes, lecturing that you've got to address the little crimes before they become a big, big crime. So what happened with the murder of Barbara, and it was a tragedy. She's just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some kids, and they were only kids. That's sad all around. Some kids started breaking into a school cantem and that wasn't investigated properly. They kept breaking into the school cantem got the way of that. Then they started breaking into houses and again, if you really put the resources in, you could have solved it. But it just wasn't true. That wasn't recognized as a potentially serious crime. They broke into a house that had a gun and they've stolen the gun. Then they've done an armed robbery at the local liquor store, and so the crimes escalating. Then Barbara, who's been at Christmas shopping with some of the old friends, had come back, got off the train and these kids fronted her and wanted her bag, and she resisted. They've panicked and they've shot her and killed her. That was such a such a such a tragedy and we got the breakthrough in that came when we linked some of her Oh that's right, some of her stolen stolen property was used at the service station. And we and I'll say this it's not giving away methodology, but we recreated the crime scene a week after after she was murdered, and one of the kids that was involved in the murder came walking through the crime scene and we got his name and that's how we linked linked the crime and.

Came in for a sticky beak.

It came in a curiosity. We've made a point of recreating the scene. We want to speak to people in the era, and he couldn't help himself and came in. And that happens a lot in investigations. People ingratiate themselves in the investigation because I think they're I won't say curious, because it's not curious. I think they're just troubled and worried and just want to find out what's going on.

I mean, you see that in movies at the time of the serial killer is still lurking around because it's like an ego thing.

They think that they're invisible or whatever. They want to see it. They want to have a close eye on what the investigation.

Is doing one hundred percent, one hundred percent, and you've got to you've got to look look at that and think, why is this person. I have another one that it was a horrible, horrible murder an elderly lady and she was sexually assaulted in a home in their eighties. And there was a bloke that really he kept walking around around the area saying that, yeah, he's a suspect for this job. As it turned out that wasn't. He wasn't the suspect. But people, it's funny how people react when someone's been murdered.

And what he actually had done it.

No, No, he hadn't, He hadn't done it.

Oh, he was just an attention seeker.

He yeah, he he was a widder. He was a widder. And you come across a lot of widows. And that's and when I say that, I say it without any mental health background or knowledge. They're just with that.

That's muddy the waters. You know, when you're trying to talk to someone and identify a suspect, and there's some people who just like answer questions really badly because they're just odd people.

And you've got to be wary of that, because I call it like a litmus test in that I'll ask a question and just see a reaction from a person. But you've got a factor in some people don't think rationally. And I always make the point a lot of times. And I was taught this by the people that I looked up to, and I tried to pass this knowledge on to other people that when someone commits a crime, and I'll be going, look this happened, and we do have the white boards, like we say we love the white boards in the incident room and going we've got this, we've got that. And someone will say, but why would you do that? And I always throw back, you're trying to put the rational thought into an irrational mind, and you've got to be mindful of that.

There's good cop back cops still workers.

I love it. Do you switch it up or you when it really confuses bad cop, bad cop? That sends them into a skin, But it works. And I say this, good cop, bad cop. It's human nature. You want to be yeah, you want to be liked, or most most people do. So you gravitate towards a person that's showing you the empathy and that. And the other thing, Andrew is that people why do people confess? Sometimes I've come out of an interview room and go, how did you get that person to confess? Quite often you think of the worst thing you've done in your life, and no, don't Actually, I don't want you to. I don't want you to confess worst thing you've done in your life and the burden that you carry with it. But if you've got the best made or someone close to you that you can confess and that it takes a little bit of pressure off. Imagine if you murdered someone, the weight of pressure that you're carrying on your shoulders. And I've honestly seeing some people just unburden themselves in that you know, it's not intimidate, it's not coming over the top of them. They just want to clear their conscience and go, yeah this happened, and you see it, You see it changes. They go from just tense and then they feel better. Now feel better. They're going to jail for twenty years. It's not the real You're not selling something, you're not selling the house to them. But quite often confessions come from the fact that they just want to light that load. Yeah, yeah, because you carry it like imagine and yeah, people, you've committed a serious crime, cops can come and get your twenty years to thirty years down the track. So it's a load to load to carry.

What about when you come at someone hard the bad crop and you're trying to get information out of them, but it turns out they're they're the wrong guy.

That must be hard as well.

To feel like I was a total prick to this person and they were totally innocent.

When I've lectured in detective courses or the homicide courses, I use this story and I won't identify the actual crime, but question where a lady was killed and the husband was a potential suspect for it. So I went out him hard and it was a hard interview. And it's it's what's with the tears? That type of thing. It was in your face type interview.

It must be in your head, It must be a part of you is like what if we're wrong? What if we get it? What if this?

Most definitely And I know people I don't like doing that. You don't. Yeah, people might think you enjoy it. No, you're getting the character and you do it. That's what you're being paid to do. As a homicide detective. You don't walk in there. It's not all singing kumbai Ah. You're trying to solve a murder. Someone's life has been taken, so you're not mucking around. You're playing playing first grade. So you go in there and you have the hard, hard questions with this spoke. I went went hard at him, and then for good reason, there was stuff there that potentially potentially made a suspect he might have had some involvement, and then after it we found out it wasn't him. And I spoke to him about the conversation I've had with him, and I said, look, I'm sorry, but I'm doing my job. I hope you understand that. He said, Gary, I felt so good when I saw the way that you were speaking to me and that you were the right person to be doing this job because you cared and you were going to do everything that had to be done, not breaking rules, but just going hard. That helped me through a lot in terms of, you know, I've gone hard on people and realized, no, they're not the person. You can't take back what you've said or what you've done. But that gave me a little bit of strength knowing that that's how people really think. And I'm thinking, if it was my loved one killed, I'd want the cops going hard. And we're not talking we're not talking to break and enter that type of thing. We're talking to murder. So yeah, the state stakes are high.

Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting perspective, and it's I mean, he must have just felt good to hear you also say I'm sorry, but this is the way we've.

Got to do things. Yes, yeah, and you can do things in respectful, respectful ways. And if people are intimidated because of the line of questioning, well if they if they've done it, I'm not worried. If I'm intimidating, I'm not threatening, promise, But if they're being intimidated by the fact that I'm professional and come in here and know my ship and go at them, I wouldn't like someone coming at me that looked professional and knew all all stuff about me.

So yeah, I had a very cop funny conversation where my house got raided and there was like a bunch of cops going through, you know, my whole house, trying to find drugs everywhere, and I was there with like the sergeant who was just chatting to me, and I was so coked up. I was like, there was a choice between you the going back to the police station or staying in the house, and I chose to stay there.

And so he was.

We were just having small talk, like you know, where'd you grow up, all that kind of stuff, and every now and then he'd try and add in like a crime question. He'd be like, so, how long you've been selling drugs herefore? And I'd be like, cople mate, we just said we're just going to have some small talking to go. Can't blame a guy for try.

I've seen that tech never really bought into that tactic sort of yeah, it's a nice day, why do you kill it?

Yeah?

Yeah, that's yeah, I know it might work. Maybe I should have a few bites later we were like, oh, you go for the eels? Yeah, you know, And so where do you get your drugs from?

And I'm like, come on, mate, it's a bit of a like a Perry Mason type courtroom.

I think one thing I have most people would acknowledged in the workplace is good talent is hard to find, and I imagine that's probably the same in the police for So there are times when you've worked with colleagues and just saw this guy's dumb as bricks.

I have worked with some.

And let me say this.

I'm sure people have said they've worked with me and I'm as dumb as dumb. But this is my perspective. I'm dumb.

But what do you do when you when there's a guy that's leading a case and you just think that's never going to get solved if he's involved.

I'm a big believer in and when I was running investigations, I went for quality, not quantity, Like don't give me ten dud detectives, Give me two gun detectives and I will get more, more done. A couple of things, and there's some that some people I've worked with and I'm just thinking, what the hell, what how did this person get here working on a homicide investigation. And I've worked with some people I look up to the younger, quicker, smarter that come in and keep me on matteo. So it's not me sort of sitting myself above everyone, but things like that. There's a lot of paperwork in policing, and I had a couple of people on the high profile strikeforce. That a file an exhibit file. It's about as simple as simple can be it because this could be the exhibit this glass, the glass was seized at such and such, it has now been fingerprinted, that can be returned to the owner or destroyed. You know, it's a little half page report. This guy couldn't do a exhibit file. And I'm thinking, and I've gone to the person that sits above me, the boss above me, go, what do you want me to do with this person like he's will help him, encourage him and support him. I'd have to take him back to kindergarten.

How do you get this fast?

Yeah? How did he get this fast? And they should set standards. I'm a big one in setting stands. There needs to be pass and file. If someone can't articulate or put a report on paper, they shouldn't be doing the job. There might be other roles that they can do. There might be other roles that they can do that don't need that, but don't have them in that environment. And there's some that just I say, just stupid. No, I think we've probably all met those people in any workplace.

But how do you solve it to get like the right people to be detectives. It's just a money thing, is it? Like, is it a pr thing to pitch this? Is this is the job? Or do you have to actively go and try and recruit people who aren't even looking to be a detective.

I think I know people. I know people I could pull off the street, give me a week and I could make them as like a productive member of a an investigative team. I think there needs to be standard set there and this, And people go, are you arrogant prick saying this? But I'm going to say it because I firmly believe it. When I came in the homicide, it was you had to pay pay your dues. You worked in the local as a local detective, someone might have noticed your work. And then you worked in major crime, different sorts of major crime, organized crime, that might be the tile up squad. And then if you were performing in that, you got the tap on the shoulder and you got the homicide. When I got the homicide, it was the proudest moment of my career that this is what I aspired to. I looked at these people as God's homicide homicide detectives. By the time I left policing in homicide, we were having people and having people come into homicide that didn't even weren't even designated detectives, that hadn't hadn't even got the designation. So designation of detective two years sort of training to have the privilege, and I think it should be a privilege have been called the detective. So people that are playing closed constables, haven't they even finished their detective's course working homicide. Then you've got people when you apply.

Why is that? Why are they're getting fast tracked into that?

I think they're a shortage of a shortage of police, which is sort of a chronic problem. But I also I've dealt with dealt with some people that really actively sought to get them out of the cops. And what I saw with state elections because I was dealing with the police medical officer a lot, because I had a couple of people with some serious problems that I kept getting told. But it's a performance issue. I'm going they're mad, and they're saying, well, the parameters of insanity this wide, they fit within that. They've not seen pink elephants fly, but they're pretty close. But state election and Laura in order becomes an issue, so they all people that were rejected to join the police are now accepted to be the police. And it was like you could see the spike after about eighteen months. These are all the people that end up back at the police medical officer because they're not suitable to be police officers. So it's people that it's a vacation. It's people that want to do it, people that committed to do it. I'd had people on homicide that didn't like working weekends or couldn't work in the afternoon. It's not a nine to five job.

So I do part time homicide solving.

Look, look you can, and there's some women because of children, have worked part time and committed. But there's people that I just really they're not conscripts. So you come to homicide, you're going to see dead bodies, You're going to have to work hard. And I just really believe the level and the point. I remember having having a discussion and yeah, I'm not going to lose any friends on it, but this is the reality of it. There's a person supplying to be an inspectorate homicide but didn't want to come to homicide, and I've gone, well, why would we have an inspector at homicide that doesn't want to be hungry for the job. Not hungry. You've got to be passionate about it, passion with perspective, but you've got to be hungry about it. So yeah, you can see I've still got the passion for it in that murders are soul because and it doesn't have to be the leader of the investigation, but because committed people are doing something above and beyond and really nailing it. And you make one mistake with murder, and people literally literally get away of murder. So you need people. You need smart people, you need passionate people, and people that are dedicated to the job.

Do you miss it? It's been what how long it was twenty nineteen when.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so we're going into almost six years now. I still I miss aspects of it. I never feel as live as alive as I do when I'm on the trial of the solver of murder. I got job satisfaction from it. I enjoyed it. People often say with the police, I missed the people. There's certain people I miss. I'm not going to say I miss the people. I miss that the rest of your life could be a clusterfuck, but you were doing some good in policing. Having said that, Look, I'm having a ball with what I'm doing now and it's opened up opportunities for me that I wouldn't have got. And I reckon. You know when you said would I be a cynic? I reckon, I would have been a synic by now if I was still in the cops.

I mean years have gone by. But like, what was it like when you first left? What was that first six months?

Like that was was it hard?

Great? It's tremendous waking up in the morning and sooning your face on the TV disgrace cop and the front page of the paper. Yeah, it was very hard. It was that it was my passion at the time and it was just ripped away. So anything that anyone that doesn't have to be policing, it's what you're passionate about. Imagine if your passion was just taken away from you and you're thinking that's unfair and unjust. And it took me a while to sort of recalibrate and go, Okay, well I'm not going to I'm not going to let them break me. Because there's certain people and they know who they are that went at me and it was just malicious. And I don't begrudge the police. I like the police. I like the work they're doing, and I've got a lot of good friends still in the police, and there's some great, great operators. But certain people, for their own petty little reasons, went at me and I was angry, and good people told me, where are you going to channel that? And I made a conscious effort just to go, Okay, I'm not going to be bitter. And I say i'd.

Bitter every time I talk.

Cranky, but I take a step back and think, Okay, what's the best form of revenge? And there is a bit of revenge in me. I'll show I can live a good life away from the cops. And I am living a good life. I'm carving out a career in the media, which is you know, I worked hard doing stuff here on the podcast, so I feel like I'm doing some good. I get invited to Parliament, I get invited to justice committees. I'm still doing things that I feel like I'm making the difference.

But the way you talk about when you were a cop, that sounds almost like for me an addiction for me when I talk about comedy for me is such a positive addiction after being feeding so many negative addictions for so long. It definitely has brought out the best in me. It sounds like this thing was so good for you and you were saying like even when you had troubles in your own personal life, it was like you could focus so much on this.

And did you feel like you're addicted to being a cop?

There is an addiction to it. You're a hunter and people say that I speak to detectives. I respect, and that's what we're doing. We're hunting, and you get addicted to it and it's a thriller, the chase, and it's not diminishing the nature of the crime that you're investigating, murder, but you become very driven. That was it was my passion and you know, between you and it's the one thing I was very good at Like that. That was I found something that just sort of fitted the skill set that I've got. And so I do miss that and I miss some I was at the stage where I hadn't the passion, I had the energy and I had the experience, and you know, I was people that went before me. It was a lineage that was passed down people that taught me. I looked up to them, and I just feel like I had more to offer. But it's probably better for me where I've gone now. I think I'm a better person. I might have become too too focus if I stayed in much much longer.

Well, you know, sometimes these shit hits the fan and you're forced to reinvent yourself, right and you have Yeah.

Well, well you know the people that sit here in this room, I'm thinking Jesus, there's some interesting stories and quite often the worst time in your life turns out be the best time in you turn it round.

Well, just like you said that you were kind of you were wrong by the police a little bit.

I was as well. Gary.

You know when they arrested me for selling heaps of drugs, you know, I felt like that was pretty rude of them.

And look, and you were passion that weekend and you were Look, I can apologize on behalf of the New South Wales Police for what they did to you. You were passionate about what you did.

You feel a drug dealer, I thought I was doing good stuff.

I like to think that, Like before they were having the meeting about it raiding my house and were like, do we have to like this guy? Seems like he's one of the good ones. And you know that they were having some restless nights after when I was seeing in prison, like, oh no, we're.

I'm sure they're thinking about that. Andrew. I've got to say, and I in this and I've heard a lot of arrest stories, but for some reason, you're a rest story made me laugh. I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing with you. No.

Well, I mean that was one of the first kind of jokes I wrote, was where the raptor squad tackled me and told me that I had a tiny cock, you know, and I had pants on. So that was the first joke I wrote was how do they know? They must have had me under surveillance? Right, But yeah, I think you know, I'm pretty philosophical about it now because like, the life that I have now wouldn't have happened if I didn't get raided and ended up reinventing myself in jail.

And there's something empowering about reinventing yourself too. It freshens you up. It's a new challenge and yeah, okay, well this is this is a new world, even like just I've been a public servant for that long and so I had to set up a company and I'm looking at taxes and totally out of my depth and getting advice on that. But even little things like okay, well I'm doing work. Now, where's my stationary cupboard? Like you've got to go, You've got to get.

Got to do all of you sound like a rugby league player when they're they're out of the system and suddenly like what do I do?

I've got to do this allways, But that was where's the prince is not working? Who's going to fix it? Like that? That was my go to in that. Yeah, I left as a detective chief inspector. You've got people around that can help you with that. How do you fill out this form? So yeah, it's awakening for me, awakening a learning curve and what I've done and people that come in from a place bag me because I've got all the labels. I love dim labeling, like in the in the store's cabinet. I don't know if that's an old habit from from policing, but blank paper because I need that sign so I know it's blank paper there. Yeah.

Wow, the organizational skills have carried on.

Right exactly exactly, just waiting for the big breakthrough.

Should we have a break.

Yeah, let's have a break now. And yeah, I'm enjoying this. The pressures off. If if this goes bad, it's your fault.

You know, you've.

Come storming in here saying I'm going to run this show. You better not take my job. I will be bitter over there.

He's actually, yeah, we like you more.

All right, we'll have a break.

It is an active at Dinam

I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin

After 25 years working in homicide, former Detective Chief Inspector Gary Jubelin is sitting down ac 
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