I met Sally Clarke through a co-working space. We’d both landed in the surf-side town we call home within a few months of each other and quickly discovered we have more in common than our matching, often-misspelt, surname.

One of the (many) things I admire about Sally is her commitment to friendship. Given how many different countries and continents she’s lived and traveled on, she manages to maintain multiple meaningful deep friendships that receive regular nurturing in different ways.

Last year, Sally mentioned the multi-decade email chain she’s had running with her law school friends who she studied with 25 years ago. So when I started this podcast series, I knew I had to talk to her about this to find out more.

Who’s Sally?

Sally is a Dutch-Australian hiker, bad surfer, ex-lawyer, and yoga aficionado. She’s lived on 4 continents, speaks 5 languages and will eat anything except goats cheese and offal. Her Spotify age is 21.

You can find Sally’s work on her website and on LinkedIn.

What we talked about

In this conversation I ask Sally how the 25 year old email chain started, why it works, what problems it solves, and why it’s stood the test of time when we’re spoiled for choice in ways to connect with people.

Here’s some things we talked about…


Why email is better than other communication mediums


Finding the right communication platform for different friendships


The lost art of long-form missives


Asynchronous long-form as a shortcut for better in-person connection


When friendship breakups happen in the group email chain

I hope you enjoy listening to this conversation as much as I did recording it. And of course, I’d love to know if there’s anything you’ll be experimenting with from this conversation.

I met Sally Clarke through a co-working space. We&rsquo;d both landed in the surf-side town we call home within a few months of each other and quickly discovered we have more in common than our matching, often-misspelt, surname.
One of the (many) things I admire about Sally is her commitment to friendship. Given how many different countries and continents she&rsquo;s lived and traveled on, she manages to maintain multiple meaningful deep friendships that receive regular nurturing in different ways.
Last year, Sally mentioned the multi-decade email chain she&rsquo;s had running with her law school friends who she studied with 25 years ago. So when I started this podcast series, I knew I had to talk to her about this to find out more.
Who&rsquo;s Sally?
Sally is a Dutch-Australian hiker, bad surfer, ex-lawyer, and yoga aficionado. She&rsquo;s lived on 4 continents, speaks 5 languages and will eat anything except goats cheese and offal. Her Spotify age is 21.
You can find Sally&rsquo;s work on <a href="https://www.salcla.com/">her website</a> and on <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallyconsulting/">LinkedIn</a>.
What we talked about
In this conversation I ask Sally how the 25 year old email chain started, why it works, what problems it solves, and why it&rsquo;s stood the test of time when we&rsquo;re spoiled for choice in ways to connect with people.
Here&rsquo;s some things we talked about&hellip;
<ul>
<li>
Why email is better than other communication mediums
</li>
<li>
Finding the right communication platform for different friendships
</li>
<li>
The lost art of long-form missives
</li>
<li>
Asynchronous long-form as a shortcut for better in-person connection
</li>
<li>
When friendship breakups happen in the group email chain
</li>
</ul>
I hope you enjoy listening to this conversation as much as I did recording it. And of course, I&rsquo;d love to know if there&rsquo;s anything you&rsquo;ll be experimenting with from this conversation.

A podcast about friendship, for people who want more from theirs.

The podcast is about friendship. It’s less of a dense prose deep dive into the psychology of friendship (although that will come up), and more of a burst of joy, showcasing a host of fun, interesting, creative, quirky, and meaningful examples of the ways that people spend time with, and celebrate their friends.

It is not just a podcast of ideas like ‘hiking with friends is good’ (although obviously that’s also true) or ‘I like my friends because they’re always there for me’ (which is nice). This is a smorgasbord. A recipe book (in audio form) of the tiny regular rituals, creative celebrations, and more interesting time spent together that people have with their friends, to inspire and encourage other people to do the same in their friendships.

A podcast about friendship, for people who want&nbsp;more from theirs.
The podcast is about friendship. It&rsquo;s less of a dense prose deep dive into the psychology of friendship (although that will come up), and more of a burst of joy, showcasing a host of fun, interesting, creative, quirky, and meaningful examples of the ways that people spend time with, and celebrate their friends.
It is not just a podcast of ideas like &lsquo;hiking with friends is good&rsquo; (although obviously that&rsquo;s also true) or &lsquo;I like my friends because they&rsquo;re always&nbsp;there for me&rsquo; (which is nice). This is a smorgasbord. A recipe book (in audio form) of the tiny regular rituals, creative celebrations, and more interesting&nbsp;time spent together that people have with their friends, to inspire&nbsp;and encourage other people to do the same in their friendships.

How to Friend

HTF #03: Sally Clarke has a 25 year old email chain with eight lawyers

A short solo episode this week to tell you about two things I’ve done with friends that you might want to tweak, steal, borrow, or try.

1) Cookbook club

On one Sunday a month, I would get together with a group of other women to cook, eat, and chat. We did that together for six years.

It all started when Maree put a group up on Meetup.com called Too Many Cooks. She said in the group blurb that she wanted to do more cooking and eating with other people. In February 2016 we had our first meetup in a bar in a (very) Melbourne laneway, where those of us who turned up nutted out how the monthly meetups would work. This group became the founding group.

Each month someone from our group would offer to be the host, and they would pick that month’s cookbook. Everyone would cook at least one recipe from that book and we’d bring it to the host’s house ready for the Sunday lunch.

A few logistics…


Yes, there was always some reheating/final cooking or assembly that had to be done at the host’s house, so oven space, timings, and saucepan allocation was some fun negotiation that often had to happen!


If not everyone had a copy of the cookbook (which was usually the case), people would source it from the library, or swap copies with each other beforehand (a lot of books were purchased off the back of these meetups)


The next event was always set at the previous event (because it’s easier to work out diaries when everyone’s together)


We chose Sundays because it gave everyone Saturday to do the shopping, planning, and cooking, plus a group lunch on Sundays had a nice nostalgic feeling about it


Everyone was allowed a leave pass where if they just couldn’t do the cooking for that month, they could just come and eat and hang out with no judgement


Bringing Tupperware to take the leftovers home was non-negotiable, there were always leftovers


Hosting happened in small apartments huddled around tables and squished onto sofas or makeshift tables, to family homes full of kids’ toys and cat or dog hair. I loved how relaxed everyone was for hosting other people, who for those first few meetups were total strangers


On that, people’s addresses weren’t published on the meetup group page, we moved all the communication to a private facebook messenger group that only regular members could see

A couple of mini-rituals evolved over the years…


Every March (the anniversary month) we’d do a ‘best of’ the previous year, where we’d revisit favourite books (usually Ottolenghi books) and/or recipes


Every December we’d go out for a group dinner somewhere nice and have someone cook for us for a change

As with most things, all of this carried on because we found a rhythm and routine that worked for us, and kept doing it. It mostly faded to a close because of covid lockdowns keeping us apart combined with people moving further away, and/or people having babies. By the end, all but one of the core group had been members since the very beginning. There were members who we’d only see maybe once or twice a year, and others that drifted over the years due to moving away, work changes, or just other commitments.

This group is how I met my good friend Emily, who I now do all kinds of fun camping, hiking, and other active adventures with. We ended up living in each others’ 5km ‘bubbles’ during covid so started hanging out outside of the Too Many Cooks meetups that were more sporadic during 2020/21, and realised we liked hanging out more often than just one Sunday a month.

Four years on and I still think really fondly of the time with this group of women, and how successful it was. I love that we did it for so long, even though it didn’t last forever (it doesn’t need to last forever to be a success of course), and that we got to share so much food and fun conversation. It’s a great blueprint and whenever I mention it to other people, it’s always something they love the idea of.

2) Annual bingo

A couple of years ago I made a bingo card for the year which included a selection of fun things I wanted to do during the year. There were things like ride a horse, play pool, make smores over a fire, go to 8 new gelato shops, and more…

Super simple, pretty fun to create and to do. The thing I liked the most about it was that during the year friends would ask to do something from the card, or ask what was left on the card to use that as a way of catching up. Unsurprisingly, the item of trying multiple new gelato shops was a particularly popular request (and one that a few friends’ kids took equally as seriously).

The point wasn’t necessarily to complete the card (although that would have been cool), but more use it to mix up ways of catching up with friends.

Interestingly I did one this year, but felt less inclined to share or complete the items on it (I’ve actually just dug it out as I couldn’t remember anything on there!). You could do a themed ones of these, I saw Danielle Taschereau Mamers on LinkedIn post about having a summer bingo card, which I thought was a nice idea because it contains the activities into a shorter period, which might help them have momentum with friends, which could also encourage you all to make it more of a collective bingo card for a summer.

 

I’d love to know if there’s anything you’ll be experimenting with from this episode. Let me know by replying to this from your inbox, or commenting in Substack: https://howtofriend.substack.com/ 

A short solo episode this week to tell you about two things I&rsquo;ve done with friends that you might want to tweak, steal, borrow, or try.
1) Cookbook club
On one Sunday a month, I would get together with a group of other women to cook, eat, and chat. We did that together for six years.
It all started when Maree put a group up on Meetup.com called Too Many Cooks. She said in the group blurb that she wanted to do more cooking and eating with other people. In February 2016 we had our first meetup in a bar in a (very) Melbourne laneway, where those of us who turned up nutted out how the monthly meetups would work. This group became the founding group.
Each month someone from our group would offer to be the host, and they would pick that month&rsquo;s cookbook. Everyone would cook at least one recipe from that book and we&rsquo;d bring it to the host&rsquo;s house ready for the Sunday lunch.
A few logistics&hellip;
<ul>
<li>
Yes, there was always some reheating/final cooking or assembly that had to be done at the host&rsquo;s house, so oven space, timings, and saucepan allocation was some fun negotiation that often had to happen!
</li>
<li>
If not everyone had a copy of the cookbook (which was usually the case), people would source it from the library, or swap copies with each other beforehand (a lot of books were purchased off the back of these meetups)
</li>
<li>
The next event was always set at the previous event (because it&rsquo;s easier to work out diaries when everyone&rsquo;s together)
</li>
<li>
We chose Sundays because it gave everyone Saturday to do the shopping, planning, and cooking, plus a group lunch on Sundays had a nice nostalgic feeling about it
</li>
<li>
Everyone was allowed a leave pass where if they just couldn&rsquo;t do the cooking for that month, they could just come and eat and hang out with no judgement
</li>
<li>
Bringing Tupperware to take the leftovers home was non-negotiable, there were always leftovers
</li>
<li>
Hosting happened in small apartments huddled around tables and squished onto sofas or makeshift tables, to family homes full of kids&rsquo; toys and cat or dog hair. I loved how relaxed everyone was for hosting other people, who for those first few meetups were total strangers
</li>
<li>
On that, people&rsquo;s addresses weren&rsquo;t published on the meetup group page, we moved all the communication to a private facebook messenger group that only regular members could see
</li>
</ul>
A couple of mini-rituals evolved over the years&hellip;
<ul>
<li>
Every March (the anniversary month) we&rsquo;d do a &lsquo;best of&rsquo; the previous year, where we&rsquo;d revisit favourite books (usually Ottolenghi books) and/or recipes
</li>
<li>
Every December we&rsquo;d go out for a group dinner somewhere nice and have someone cook for us for a change
</li>
</ul>
As with most things, all of this carried on because we found a rhythm and routine that worked for us, and kept doing it. It mostly faded to a close because of covid lockdowns keeping us apart combined with people moving further away, and/or people having babies. By the end, all but one of the core group had been members since the very beginning. There were members who we&rsquo;d only see maybe once or twice a year, and others that drifted over the years due to moving away, work changes, or just other commitments.
This group is how I met my good friend Emily, who I now do all kinds of fun camping, hiking, and other active adventures with. We ended up living in each others&rsquo; 5km &lsquo;bubbles&rsquo; during covid so started hanging out outside of the Too Many Cooks meetups that were more sporadic during 2020/21, and realised we liked hanging out more often than just one Sunday a month.
Four years on and I still think really fondly of the time with this group of women, and how successful it was. I love that we did it for so long, even though it didn&rsquo;t last forever (it doesn&rsquo;t need to last forever to be a success of course), and that we got to share so much food and fun conversation. It&rsquo;s a great blueprint and whenever I mention it to other people, it&rsquo;s always something they love the idea of.
2) Annual bingo
A couple of years ago I made a bingo card for the year which included a selection of fun things I wanted to do during the year. There were things like ride a horse, play pool, make smores over a fire, go to 8 new gelato shops, and more&hellip;
Super simple, pretty fun to create and to do. The thing I liked the most about it was that during the year friends would ask to do something from the card, or ask what was left on the card to use that as a way of catching up. Unsurprisingly, the item of trying multiple new gelato shops was a particularly popular request (and one that a few friends&rsquo; kids took equally as seriously).
The point wasn&rsquo;t necessarily to complete the card (although that would have been cool), but more use it to mix up ways of catching up with friends.
Interestingly I did one this year, but felt less inclined to share or complete the items on it (I&rsquo;ve actually just dug it out as I couldn&rsquo;t remember anything on there!). You could do a themed ones of these, I saw Danielle Taschereau Mamers on LinkedIn post about having a summer bingo card, which I thought was a nice idea because it contains the activities into a shorter period, which might help them have momentum with friends, which could also encourage you all to make it more of a collective bingo card for a summer.
&nbsp;
I&rsquo;d love to know if there&rsquo;s anything you&rsquo;ll be experimenting with from this episode. Let me know by replying to this from your inbox, or commenting in Substack: <a href="https://howtofriend.substack.com/">https://howtofriend.substack.com/</a>&nbsp;

HTF #05 - Cookbook club and bingo cards

Viren is a very fun person. Ironically, I met him many years ago indirectly through one of the least fun places; LinkedIn.

We’ve had so many conversations over the years about friendship, connection, fun, and how it’s so easy to not prioritise those thing and end up in some pretty boring ruts with the people around you. Which is (unfortunately) the place that many people find themselves in.

I brought him on How to Friend to talk about how he friends, which is a blend of intentional fun, often through the medium of competition. We both agree that competition can get a bit of a bad-rap, or feel like a bit of a loaded, maybe even toxic term when it comes to friendship and relationships. However, when it’s channelled in the right way, it can add an extra dimension of anticipation and conversation to otherwise routine gatherings and catch ups.

Who’s Viren?

Viren a.k.a V, Paramaters or Tkrar is a house music DJ, a gamer, a lover of sci-fi movies & TV shows, a soccer fan and a dad to three boys (named after famous soccer players). He is pro everyone having more hobbies and is an anti-second-screening activist.

Links

You can find Viren on LinkedIn, his work on his website or on his podcast, The Values Lab, and his DJing on his YouTube channel.

 

What we talked about

In this conversation I ask Viren how be brings fun and competition into his friendships in different ways, and the different versions of that with different friends.

Here’s some things we talked about…


Viren’s twice-weekly gaming group’s overly engineered leaderboard


Finding fun things to track and rank with friends


Moving from social media apps to niche activity tracking / ranking apps to learn more about your friends


Competition as a pipeline to having more fun with your friends and elevating the experience of ‘normal catch ups’


Competition for increasing collective effort in gatherings


Good participation is as important as good hosting


Looking out for the signals of disengagement


Finding a good cadence and frequency for gathering


Regularity as the antidote to decision / planning fatigue


Why everyone needs more hobbies

I hope you enjoy listening to this conversation as much as I did recording it. And of course, I’d love to know if there’s anything you’ll be experimenting with from this conversation.

Viren is a very fun person. Ironically, I met him many years ago indirectly through one of the least fun places; LinkedIn.
We&rsquo;ve had so many conversations over the years about friendship, connection, fun, and how it&rsquo;s so easy to not prioritise those thing and end up in some pretty boring ruts with the people around you. Which is (unfortunately) the place that many people find themselves in.
I brought him on How to Friend to talk about how he friends, which is a blend of intentional fun, often through the medium of competition. We both agree that competition can get a bit of a bad-rap, or feel like a bit of a loaded, maybe even toxic term when it comes to friendship and relationships. However, when it&rsquo;s channelled in the right way, it can add an extra dimension of anticipation and conversation to otherwise routine gatherings and catch ups.
Who&rsquo;s Viren?
Viren a.k.a V, Paramaters or Tkrar is a house music DJ, a gamer, a lover of sci-fi movies &amp; TV shows, a soccer fan and a dad to three boys (named after famous soccer players). He is pro everyone having more hobbies and is an anti-second-screening activist.
Links
You can find Viren on <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/virenthakrar/">LinkedIn</a>, his work on <a href="https://valuesmap.com/">his website</a> or on his podcast, <a href="https://www.valueslab.co/">The Values Lab</a>, and his <a href="http://www.youtube.com/@djtkrar.">DJing on his YouTube channel</a>.
&nbsp;
What we talked about
In this conversation I ask Viren how be brings fun and competition into his friendships in different ways, and the different versions of that with different friends.
Here&rsquo;s some things we talked about&hellip;
<ul>
<li>
Viren&rsquo;s twice-weekly gaming group&rsquo;s overly engineered leaderboard
</li>
<li>
Finding fun things to track and rank with friends
</li>
<li>
Moving from social media apps to niche activity tracking / ranking apps to learn more about your friends
</li>
<li>
Competition as a pipeline to having more fun with your friends and elevating the experience of &lsquo;normal catch ups&rsquo;
</li>
<li>
Competition for increasing collective effort in gatherings
</li>
<li>
Good participation is as important as good hosting
</li>
<li>
Looking out for the signals of disengagement
</li>
<li>
Finding a good cadence and frequency for gathering
</li>
<li>
Regularity as the antidote to decision / planning fatigue
</li>
<li>
Why everyone needs more hobbies
</li>
</ul>
I hope you enjoy listening to this conversation as much as I did recording it. And of course, I&rsquo;d love to know if there&rsquo;s anything you&rsquo;ll be experimenting with from this conversation.

HTF #04: Viren Thakrar ranks his friends

John Anthony is a delight of a human, and whether it’s a text message, a voicenote, or an IRL hang, any time we get to interact is an absolute treat.

Unsurprisingly he was one of the first people I asked to be on this audio series. John has a unique set up with four groups of his friends. Knowing that they are likely to fall into the trap of letting life get in the way of seeing each other, they make fun inevitable by each of the groups having a joint bank account and each week everyone in the group pays in the same amount to this shared bank account. When the kitty hits a certain balance, the group go wild with a weekend away, an extravagant meal, or a day out.

Whilst everyone pays the same amount each week, the amount is agreed to be something that everyone can afford. It also means that these activities aren’t having to be justified out of one payday when they do happen, so it removes any money-related awkwardness that could crop up. Sometimes it takes a year to save up enough for their chosen activity, but the fact that they’re always building up to something gives the groups something to keep connected about as they start plotting their next adventure.

In this conversation I quiz John on how this started, why it works, what problems it solves, and the fact they’re still doing it years later.

Here’s some things we talked about…


The importance of hype and building up to something with friends


The ‘mechanical Falkor camp’ that started the direct debits


Why pre-planning is not the antithesis of fun


Intentional event design with friends to help remove friction (and flaking)


A dabble into some neuroscience


Starting small with new approaches

I hope you have at least half as much fun listening to this conversation as I did recording it. And of course, I’d love to know if there’s anything you’ll be experimenting with from this conversation.

I ask each guest to share a photo of the ‘remnants of friendship’, something that shows that ‘friendship happened here’. JA’s is a bunch of flowers left on a friend’s doorstep.

 

Who’s John?

John Anthony prances through the world as a shape shifter. Dad, Musician, Speaker, Brother, Educator, Entertainer and Friend.

Safer in front of an audience than alone, John has spent the good part of his adult years learning to enjoy his own company as he travels for his learning consultancy Transcend.

Recent obsessions include esotericism, philosophy, lego, gardening and whisky.

Current alive projects are johnsong (music) and Kindred Spirits (podcast with friend Jason Fox). You can find John in these places…

johnsong on Band Camp or the Johnsong website

Transcend

Kindred Spirits 🥃✨ with John Anthony and Jason Fox

Kindred Spirits 🥃✨Wit, whimsy, whisky & wiles—a podcast within which a bard and wizard talk shop (sans AI slop). All kindred spirits welcome.By John Anthony

John Anthony is a delight of a human, and whether it&rsquo;s a text message, a voicenote, or an IRL hang, any time we get to interact is an absolute treat.
Unsurprisingly he was one of the first people I asked to be on this audio series. John has a unique set up with four groups of his friends. Knowing that they are likely to fall into the trap of letting life get in the way of seeing each other, they make fun inevitable by each of the groups having a joint bank account and each week everyone in the group pays in the same amount to this shared bank account. When the kitty hits a certain balance, the group go wild with a weekend away, an extravagant meal, or a day out.
Whilst everyone pays the same amount each week, the amount is agreed to be something that everyone can afford. It also means that these activities aren&rsquo;t having to be justified out of one payday when they do happen, so it removes any money-related awkwardness that could crop up. Sometimes it takes a year to save up enough for their chosen activity, but the fact that they&rsquo;re always building up to something gives the groups something to keep connected about as they start plotting their next adventure.
In this conversation I quiz John on how this started, why it works, what problems it solves, and the fact they&rsquo;re still doing it years later.
Here&rsquo;s some things we talked about&hellip;
<ul>
<li>
The importance of hype and building up to something with friends
</li>
<li>
The &lsquo;mechanical Falkor camp&rsquo; that started the direct debits
</li>
<li>
Why pre-planning is not the antithesis of fun
</li>
<li>
Intentional event design with friends to help remove friction (and flaking)
</li>
<li>
A dabble into some neuroscience
</li>
<li>
Starting small with new approaches
</li>
</ul>
I hope you have at least half as much fun listening to this conversation as I did recording it. And of course, I&rsquo;d love to know if there&rsquo;s anything you&rsquo;ll be experimenting with from this conversation.
<a href="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!hR5p!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9caebcf0-4e88-462c-9844-6aa3910870ef_4000x1868.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"></a>I ask each guest to share a photo of the &lsquo;remnants of friendship&rsquo;, something that shows that &lsquo;friendship happened here&rsquo;. JA&rsquo;s is a bunch of flowers left on a friend&rsquo;s doorstep.
&nbsp;
Who&rsquo;s John?
John Anthony prances through the world as a shape shifter. Dad, Musician, Speaker, Brother, Educator, Entertainer and Friend.
Safer in front of an audience than alone, John has spent the good part of his adult years learning to enjoy his own company as he travels for his learning consultancy Transcend.
Recent obsessions include esotericism, philosophy, lego, gardening and whisky.
Current alive projects are johnsong (music) and Kindred Spirits (podcast with friend Jason Fox). You can find John in these places&hellip;
<a href="https://iamjohnsong.bandcamp.com/">johnsong on Band Camp</a> or the <a href="https://www.johnsong.com.au/">Johnsong website</a>
<a href="https://transcend.com.au/">Transcend</a>
<a href="https://kindredspiritspod.substack.com/">Kindred Spirits 🥃✨ with John Anthony and Jason Fox</a>
<a href="https://kindredspiritspod.substack.com?utm_source=substack&amp;utm_campaign=publication_embed&amp;utm_medium=web&amp;embedding_publication_id=4102922">Kindred Spirits 🥃✨Wit, whimsy, whisky &amp; wiles&mdash;a podcast within which a bard and wizard talk shop (sans AI slop). All kindred spirits welcome.By John Anthony</a>

HTF #03: Sally Clarke has a 25 year old email chain with eight lawyers

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