Welcome to How Do They Afford That, The podcast that peeks into the financial lives of everyday Australians. I'm Michael Thompson. I'm an author and the co host of the podcast Fear and Greed business news. As always, I'm with Canna Campbell, financial planner and founder of Sugar Mumma TV, the financial literacy platform that you'll find on podcasts like this one, and YouTube and books and Instagram threads, TikTok pretty much everywhere. Hello, Canna, good morning. I want to talk to you about a statistic, an incredible statistic, and I know what you're about to say. I only saw the statistic because you sent it to me.

Welcome to How Do They Afford That, The podcast that peeks into the financial lives of everyday Australians. I'm Michael Thompson. I'm an author and the co host of the podcast Fear and Greed business news. As always, I'm with Canna Campbell, financial planner and founder of Sugar Mumma TV, the financial literacy platform that you'll find on podcasts like this one, and YouTube and books and Instagram threads, TikTok pretty much everywhere. Hello, Canna, good morning. I want to talk to you about a statistic, an incredible statistic, and I know what you're about to say. I only saw the statistic because you sent it to me.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I'm giving credit where credit is due. But it is about the Bank of Mum and Dad. And it is the fact that the Bank of Mum and Dad is now one of the top ten lenders in Australia, which is just amazing, right when you think about that, it's up alongside the big banks, right the banker Mum and Dad parents are providing billions of dollars in loans and gifts to their kids to help them get into the property market. It is or the right person. It is a perfect opportunity to get into the market. It is not, though, without its challenges, because there's quite a stigma attached to receiving some of these loans, particularly about kind of the effect that it can have on fueling in quality within the market. But it does beg the question which I want to discuss a bit today. Would you judge somebody if they received the money as an inheritance basically when the person's parents, for instance, were to pass away. And if you wouldn't judge them for that, then why would you judge them for receiving that assistant early while the parents are still alive and helping them to get into the market. Then it is I know I'm biased, an interesting topic. It is a topic.

I'm giving credit where credit is due. But it is about the Bank of Mum and Dad. And it is the fact that the Bank of Mum and Dad is now one of the top ten lenders in Australia, which is just amazing, right when you think about that, it's up alongside the big banks, right the banker Mum and Dad parents are providing billions of dollars in loans and gifts to their kids to help them get into the property market. It is or the right person. It is a perfect opportunity to get into the market. It is not, though, without its challenges, because there's quite a stigma attached to receiving some of these loans, particularly about kind of the effect that it can have on fueling in quality within the market. But it does beg the question which I want to discuss a bit today. Would you judge somebody if they received the money as an inheritance basically when the person's parents, for instance, were to pass away. And if you wouldn't judge them for that, then why would you judge them for receiving that assistant early while the parents are still alive and helping them to get into the market. Then it is I know I'm biased, an interesting topic. It is a topic.

It's complicated, it's emotional. It's oh, it could be bitter and twisted and resentful, but also it could be incredibly like beautiful and filled with amazing blessings and opportunities. It's it's Pandora's box in a good way that we all we need to talk about this.

It's complicated, it's emotional. It's oh, it could be bitter and twisted and resentful, but also it could be incredibly like beautiful and filled with amazing blessings and opportunities. It's it's Pandora's box in a good way that we all we need to talk about this.

Is there a good Pandora?

Is there a good Pandora?

Well?

Well?

I think we can make it good?

I think we can make it good?

How about that?

How about that?

All right?

All right?

Well, this is a good Pandora's box that we're going to be opening today, and we are joined by someone who knows this so well, knows it back to front. Can McClelland is the CEO and co founder of Opencorp. He is a property investor. He is the author of the best selling book My four year Old The Property Investor. He is a supporter of this podcast, Cam Welcome to how do they afford that?

Well, this is a good Pandora's box that we're going to be opening today, and we are joined by someone who knows this so well, knows it back to front. Can McClelland is the CEO and co founder of Opencorp. He is a property investor. He is the author of the best selling book My four year Old The Property Investor. He is a supporter of this podcast, Cam Welcome to how do they afford that?

Ken and Michael, thank you very much for having me on.

Ken and Michael, thank you very much for having me on.

Before we get into it, a couple of things. First of all, we just need to make it very clear that everything that we talk about on this show and today is general in nature. It is never personal, investment, strategic or product advice. It is purely for financial education purposes only. And if you hear something that might be relevant to you, because we don't know your circumstances, you think, hey, that's interesting, go and get some professional advice. But before we get into the meat of this topic, before we open that good old Pandora's.

Before we get into it, a couple of things. First of all, we just need to make it very clear that everything that we talk about on this show and today is general in nature. It is never personal, investment, strategic or product advice. It is purely for financial education purposes only. And if you hear something that might be relevant to you, because we don't know your circumstances, you think, hey, that's interesting, go and get some professional advice. But before we get into the meat of this topic, before we open that good old Pandora's.

Box, and want to say, it's a Pandora's box of opinions, like, I feel like everyone's good opinion of this.

Box, and want to say, it's a Pandora's box of opinions, like, I feel like everyone's good opinion of this.

I love how much you are working to redeem this analogy. Now that we've gone we have gone all in on Pandora's box here, but Camp your own story though, is fascinating because you've had a lot of success as a property investor and importantly had a lot of success helping other people become property investors as well. How did you get into it? Where did this motivation come from?

I love how much you are working to redeem this analogy. Now that we've gone we have gone all in on Pandora's box here, but Camp your own story though, is fascinating because you've had a lot of success as a property investor and importantly had a lot of success helping other people become property investors as well. How did you get into it? Where did this motivation come from?

It was a light bold moment that I had very early on in age. I think majority of everyday Australians and no disrespect to everyday Australians. Most people financially live with their head in the sand, but at some point they get that light bold moment where they realize they need to do something about their finances. Now, this can happen late at life, when they are the pensions the financial option for them. I got it really early when my parents had a small business the family home, sold that to buy another business, which is a motel. The books were cooked, they lost the light. We moved to my grand parents farm in regional Victoria and after about six months we bought a block of land build a tin shed. So I spent my teen years living in a tin shed. Realized we were reasonably poor when my friends lived in houses and we lived in a tin shed. But that light bulb moment when I wanted to provide a better financial future for my kids was when we pulled up at the exchange store on the way to town and Mum and Dad were arguing over whether they buy milk or bread because they couldn't afford both. So at that point in time, I set myself on a quest to understand how to build wealth and to look at the financial mistakes that people make.

It was a light bold moment that I had very early on in age. I think majority of everyday Australians and no disrespect to everyday Australians. Most people financially live with their head in the sand, but at some point they get that light bold moment where they realize they need to do something about their finances. Now, this can happen late at life, when they are the pensions the financial option for them. I got it really early when my parents had a small business the family home, sold that to buy another business, which is a motel. The books were cooked, they lost the light. We moved to my grand parents farm in regional Victoria and after about six months we bought a block of land build a tin shed. So I spent my teen years living in a tin shed. Realized we were reasonably poor when my friends lived in houses and we lived in a tin shed. But that light bulb moment when I wanted to provide a better financial future for my kids was when we pulled up at the exchange store on the way to town and Mum and Dad were arguing over whether they buy milk or bread because they couldn't afford both. So at that point in time, I set myself on a quest to understand how to build wealth and to look at the financial mistakes that people make.

I think that is remarkable because it is one thing a lot of people experience hardship. It is another thing to take that hardship and build something from it and to use that as inspiration to do something different. So I think that on its own is completely remarkable.

I think that is remarkable because it is one thing a lot of people experience hardship. It is another thing to take that hardship and build something from it and to use that as inspiration to do something different. So I think that on its own is completely remarkable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean so many people could use that pain to stay stuck, and you've used it as a driving force of motivation to do things differently and to make sure that your children experience are very different upbringing. Can I ask you just some about the strategies you've learned to achieve so much and also in such a short period of time, Like how have you developed these skills and these I guess the blueprint? Was it trial and error research? I imagine a lot of research if it was that or just luck or did you have a mentor behind you?

I mean so many people could use that pain to stay stuck, and you've used it as a driving force of motivation to do things differently and to make sure that your children experience are very different upbringing. Can I ask you just some about the strategies you've learned to achieve so much and also in such a short period of time, Like how have you developed these skills and these I guess the blueprint? Was it trial and error research? I imagine a lot of research if it was that or just luck or did you have a mentor behind you?

A lot of the above. The old saying that the harder work, the luckier I got was definitely one of those. But I left time at sixteen, moved to the city. I was fortunate my late teens to come across a mate who had a father who was successful investor, So Steve, he's still one of the board members on our companies today, but grabbed me by the scruff of the neck as a young teenager, and I knew rich people had property. I wasn't smart enough to go into the shear mark or I didn't understand how to analyze company stocks. So property was my path forward. Luckily, Steve showed us what to buy, where to buy it at the right point in time, and I'd go away and absorb information from as many sources as I could. So I'd go to the big ra ra semar seminars. The sharks were around in the nineties doing those big runs, and they pop up. Every time there's a property boom, the sharks come out again. But we'd take the information we got this as pre internet age, and we'd take it back to Steve and he'd tell us what was bs, what was semi relevant, and dissect the strategies that people were put in place. Now I'm really good at business, growing businesses. We've got about eighty team members and to get a measured outcoming in business you need a process. But I was amazed that people will invest in property without a process to give them the right result they want, because you can make really expensive mistakes. So that set us side a path of setting up open Corp and building a property advisory company with mortgage broking and property management and mentoring around Australia. We analyze each of the capital city markets to find that right property for everyday Australians. But that was basically in a nutshell where it came from and where we are today sitting here talking to you.

A lot of the above. The old saying that the harder work, the luckier I got was definitely one of those. But I left time at sixteen, moved to the city. I was fortunate my late teens to come across a mate who had a father who was successful investor, So Steve, he's still one of the board members on our companies today, but grabbed me by the scruff of the neck as a young teenager, and I knew rich people had property. I wasn't smart enough to go into the shear mark or I didn't understand how to analyze company stocks. So property was my path forward. Luckily, Steve showed us what to buy, where to buy it at the right point in time, and I'd go away and absorb information from as many sources as I could. So I'd go to the big ra ra semar seminars. The sharks were around in the nineties doing those big runs, and they pop up. Every time there's a property boom, the sharks come out again. But we'd take the information we got this as pre internet age, and we'd take it back to Steve and he'd tell us what was bs, what was semi relevant, and dissect the strategies that people were put in place. Now I'm really good at business, growing businesses. We've got about eighty team members and to get a measured outcoming in business you need a process. But I was amazed that people will invest in property without a process to give them the right result they want, because you can make really expensive mistakes. So that set us side a path of setting up open Corp and building a property advisory company with mortgage broking and property management and mentoring around Australia. We analyze each of the capital city markets to find that right property for everyday Australians. But that was basically in a nutshell where it came from and where we are today sitting here talking to you.

That is amazing. The Bank of Dad is there are so many different things that we could talk to you about, because it feels like you could kind of explain an awful lot about property investing and the market more broadly. But if we were to focus on the Bank of Mum and Dad, because as we said in the intro, there is a lot to it, and there is this there is an element of a stigma attached to it. There is also this idea that with property prices rising over time and at times going up very very quickly, and people struggling to get young people in particular really really struggling to get their foot on the ladder, that the banker Mum and Dad has a purpose within that to help young people, particularly onto the property, into the property market, onto the property ladder, the nuts and bolts of it. Can you explain to us how the bank of Mum and Dad actually works? What's it look like?

That is amazing. The Bank of Dad is there are so many different things that we could talk to you about, because it feels like you could kind of explain an awful lot about property investing and the market more broadly. But if we were to focus on the Bank of Mum and Dad, because as we said in the intro, there is a lot to it, and there is this there is an element of a stigma attached to it. There is also this idea that with property prices rising over time and at times going up very very quickly, and people struggling to get young people in particular really really struggling to get their foot on the ladder, that the banker Mum and Dad has a purpose within that to help young people, particularly onto the property, into the property market, onto the property ladder, the nuts and bolts of it. Can you explain to us how the bank of Mum and Dad actually works? What's it look like?

Yeah, so it refers to parents assisting their kids financially to enter the property market. You're right, it's a big stigma thing, and there is a Pandora's box that we have different impressions we do need to unto. It's a thing. It's catching on.

Yeah, so it refers to parents assisting their kids financially to enter the property market. You're right, it's a big stigma thing, and there is a Pandora's box that we have different impressions we do need to unto. It's a thing. It's catching on.

You have done that just to kind of dose, just to make her feel a little bit better.

You have done that just to kind of dose, just to make her feel a little bit better.

This is good.

This is good.

I think we're going to get on very nicely in here.

I think we're going to get on very nicely in here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, So there is a lot to it, though, isn't that.

Yeah, So there is a lot to it, though, isn't that.

Yeah, Well, let's look at the first stigma. You look at, say the boomers, and just to be clear on gen X, I saw Navan alive. So, but with the boomers, with boomers the standard. You know, your silver spooning your kids, and we had to do it hard. We save for a deposit. We had eighteen percent interest rates. When I hear that, I just need to debunk that a little bit. For the new young people getting into the property market and for the boomers, I would love eighteen percent interest rates today in today's market, I would love to be back there. So this comes down to income versus the cost of property. So back in the nineties, when there's eighteen percent interest rates, the average wage was forty thousand dollars. The average property is about one hundred thousand dollars, so you're looking at about two and a bit times income to property value. Now the average wage is about one hundred thousand, but you're looking at a million dollars for a property, so it's ten times to get into the market. Now, getting a deposit together for kids and young people nowadays is really tough because our client's on average at the moment, property is going up around ten thousand dollars per month, So just to maintain pace with the market, you need to be saving twenty percent of that. So you've got to save two thousand dollars just to maintain pace with the market and save a deposit on top of that. So when we think back of each is probably generation in the past. You want each generation, the next generation to be financially better off. We're at a point now where that's not the case. So people need to understand that right now, if you're not helping your kids get into the property market, the gap between the have nots is getting wider, and the next generation will be worse off financially. So there's a choice to make. Tell your kids go on rent and if you can't help them into the market or help them out, because it's very, very difficult and much harder than it was twenty thirty years ago to say for a deposit. So there's a choice that needs to be made. So hopefully I unpacked that stigma a little bit. Yeah.

Yeah, Well, let's look at the first stigma. You look at, say the boomers, and just to be clear on gen X, I saw Navan alive. So, but with the boomers, with boomers the standard. You know, your silver spooning your kids, and we had to do it hard. We save for a deposit. We had eighteen percent interest rates. When I hear that, I just need to debunk that a little bit. For the new young people getting into the property market and for the boomers, I would love eighteen percent interest rates today in today's market, I would love to be back there. So this comes down to income versus the cost of property. So back in the nineties, when there's eighteen percent interest rates, the average wage was forty thousand dollars. The average property is about one hundred thousand dollars, so you're looking at about two and a bit times income to property value. Now the average wage is about one hundred thousand, but you're looking at a million dollars for a property, so it's ten times to get into the market. Now, getting a deposit together for kids and young people nowadays is really tough because our client's on average at the moment, property is going up around ten thousand dollars per month, So just to maintain pace with the market, you need to be saving twenty percent of that. So you've got to save two thousand dollars just to maintain pace with the market and save a deposit on top of that. So when we think back of each is probably generation in the past. You want each generation, the next generation to be financially better off. We're at a point now where that's not the case. So people need to understand that right now, if you're not helping your kids get into the property market, the gap between the have nots is getting wider, and the next generation will be worse off financially. So there's a choice to make. Tell your kids go on rent and if you can't help them into the market or help them out, because it's very, very difficult and much harder than it was twenty thirty years ago to say for a deposit. So there's a choice that needs to be made. So hopefully I unpacked that stigma a little bit. Yeah.

Absolutely, And when you are seeing this happen, when we are talking about parents helping their kids into the market, what does that actually kind of look like? And I know that that cana. You and I were talking about the various forms that this can take.

Absolutely, And when you are seeing this happen, when we are talking about parents helping their kids into the market, what does that actually kind of look like? And I know that that cana. You and I were talking about the various forms that this can take.

Yeah, So there's two main ways that we help clients with that. The first is providing a deposit and the second is acting as a guaranteur. There's also co investing in trust structures, but we probably won't delve right into those to day. The main two forms are providing a deposit or going as a guaranteur. Providing a deposit is the parents have got their own home which has gone up in equity. They've got some usable equity in that which they draw down and use it to deposit for the kids to get into the market.

Yeah, So there's two main ways that we help clients with that. The first is providing a deposit and the second is acting as a guaranteur. There's also co investing in trust structures, but we probably won't delve right into those to day. The main two forms are providing a deposit or going as a guaranteur. Providing a deposit is the parents have got their own home which has gone up in equity. They've got some usable equity in that which they draw down and use it to deposit for the kids to get into the market.

Sorry, I just want to see you, you know. Use is it the main two? A loan or a gift? What do you see as the more popular choice?

Sorry, I just want to see you, you know. Use is it the main two? A loan or a gift? What do you see as the more popular choice?

It's probably fifty to fifty at the moment with drawing down equity or going a guarantee. There's complexities with both, and there's benefits and I suppose issues. There's family dynamics, and this is what I want to get into and unpack a little bit. The family dynamics. You can get into pretty nasty situations if things aren't outlined clearly in these when you're doing banker mum and dad. So what we usually look at is the property that the kids are buying is an investment property. It's not a primary place of residents, and this de risks the property and the situation for the parents. So let's say we'll use they're getting some equity out and using it as a deposit for the kids to get into the market. If they buy an investment property and let the kids go and live in the cool suburbs and go to the nightclubs and those things. But buy an investment property in a suburb that's got a tenant that's paying rent, it de risks it because you're not worried about the kids paying it back. The concept of paying mom and dad back doesn't happen on a drip feeding paying you back amount of money. There's a set agreement put in place where after a period of time the investment property's gone up x amount, the money is out of that and the parents are paid back in a lump sum. So we keep it really clean and that stops that family dynamic issue happening. Guarantee is very similar in that instance. Obviously save some stamp duty interests, but lender's mortgage insurance. Obviously that can be saved, but there is that once the equity's gone up in nothing in the investment property, then the guaranteur can come off that loan. So both are similar. We provide a simple basic template for agreements on those for clients.

It's probably fifty to fifty at the moment with drawing down equity or going a guarantee. There's complexities with both, and there's benefits and I suppose issues. There's family dynamics, and this is what I want to get into and unpack a little bit. The family dynamics. You can get into pretty nasty situations if things aren't outlined clearly in these when you're doing banker mum and dad. So what we usually look at is the property that the kids are buying is an investment property. It's not a primary place of residents, and this de risks the property and the situation for the parents. So let's say we'll use they're getting some equity out and using it as a deposit for the kids to get into the market. If they buy an investment property and let the kids go and live in the cool suburbs and go to the nightclubs and those things. But buy an investment property in a suburb that's got a tenant that's paying rent, it de risks it because you're not worried about the kids paying it back. The concept of paying mom and dad back doesn't happen on a drip feeding paying you back amount of money. There's a set agreement put in place where after a period of time the investment property's gone up x amount, the money is out of that and the parents are paid back in a lump sum. So we keep it really clean and that stops that family dynamic issue happening. Guarantee is very similar in that instance. Obviously save some stamp duty interests, but lender's mortgage insurance. Obviously that can be saved, but there is that once the equity's gone up in nothing in the investment property, then the guaranteur can come off that loan. So both are similar. We provide a simple basic template for agreements on those for clients.

Can you share with us a success story, you know, say someone in their sixties won't help their kids get into the market.

Can you share with us a success story, you know, say someone in their sixties won't help their kids get into the market.

Yeah, one really good one. So we've got our team used this, like we've said, eighty team members in Australia. Australia. But Pascal and Georgia, Pascal works for us and his dad wanted he actually read my book and said to past this is before password for us actually, so we want to get you into the property market. And in there it talks about helping kids out and getting them started. But what Pascal and Georgia have done, they've had Mimi come along, which puts a little bit more pressure on lending. They living in Bauxhill, in a suburb in Melbourne, couldn't afford that primary place of residents, so Pascal's father in law gave them an equity loan got them into the market. They were able. They bought a property in Brisbane in a suburb called Polara that went up about four hundred thousand dollars over about a two year period. Yeah, I should say we've got a straining financial services license. Past performances and owndication of future performance. But that's the sort of results we were getting for clients. They were able to pay back George's dad and they've now just purchased their second investment property. So they're on the road now where they've got two investment properties living in the suburb they want to live in. They're renting there because they can't afford it. But those investment properties that go, I can we value Their plan is in ten years time to draw down the equity of that and by their primary place of residence in the suburb they love. So that's a really good story about our team members are using it. And yeah, I actually and that's concepts called rentvesting, so you yeah, I use that concept. All my business partners use that. We've got so many of our team members that invest currently.

Yeah, one really good one. So we've got our team used this, like we've said, eighty team members in Australia. Australia. But Pascal and Georgia, Pascal works for us and his dad wanted he actually read my book and said to past this is before password for us actually, so we want to get you into the property market. And in there it talks about helping kids out and getting them started. But what Pascal and Georgia have done, they've had Mimi come along, which puts a little bit more pressure on lending. They living in Bauxhill, in a suburb in Melbourne, couldn't afford that primary place of residents, so Pascal's father in law gave them an equity loan got them into the market. They were able. They bought a property in Brisbane in a suburb called Polara that went up about four hundred thousand dollars over about a two year period. Yeah, I should say we've got a straining financial services license. Past performances and owndication of future performance. But that's the sort of results we were getting for clients. They were able to pay back George's dad and they've now just purchased their second investment property. So they're on the road now where they've got two investment properties living in the suburb they want to live in. They're renting there because they can't afford it. But those investment properties that go, I can we value Their plan is in ten years time to draw down the equity of that and by their primary place of residence in the suburb they love. So that's a really good story about our team members are using it. And yeah, I actually and that's concepts called rentvesting, so you yeah, I use that concept. All my business partners use that. We've got so many of our team members that invest currently.

And you mentioned I have an aversion to jargon. I just partly because I don't understand most of it. But you referred to an equity loan, and yeah, that situation. How does that work?

And you mentioned I have an aversion to jargon. I just partly because I don't understand most of it. But you referred to an equity loan, and yeah, that situation. How does that work?

All right? So think of equity as profit in the property. It's gone up in value. So to keep it really simple, so it's gone up in value, you then create what's called a line of credit and you can create that with your current bank. So if the property's a million dollars value, you've put in two hundred thousand dollars and then the property goes so that deposit is required to be there to keep an eighty percent loan to value ratio. Once if the property goes up another two or three hundred thousand dollars, you're able to access that equity out and utilize that for a deposit for the next property. So that's how a lot of people first get into the property market. For an investment. You can use the same process as We've got a lot of clients who have bought three or four investment properties and then have gone, hang on, I want to use some of this equity growth to help my kids get into one. So that's it's the same concept of just drawing equity out of a property. So the profit out of a property that's gone up in value to use for the deposit and costs for the next property.

All right? So think of equity as profit in the property. It's gone up in value. So to keep it really simple, so it's gone up in value, you then create what's called a line of credit and you can create that with your current bank. So if the property's a million dollars value, you've put in two hundred thousand dollars and then the property goes so that deposit is required to be there to keep an eighty percent loan to value ratio. Once if the property goes up another two or three hundred thousand dollars, you're able to access that equity out and utilize that for a deposit for the next property. So that's how a lot of people first get into the property market. For an investment. You can use the same process as We've got a lot of clients who have bought three or four investment properties and then have gone, hang on, I want to use some of this equity growth to help my kids get into one. So that's it's the same concept of just drawing equity out of a property. So the profit out of a property that's gone up in value to use for the deposit and costs for the next property.

Can we come back to the kids again and the stigma, Yeah?

Can we come back to the kids again and the stigma, Yeah?

Sure.

Sure.

Why do you think people consider it dirty money when someone helps their kids out.

Why do you think people consider it dirty money when someone helps their kids out.

I think it's the oldest strain thing of anyone who doesn't do it themselves and work hard, You've just had it gifted to you. It's the old silver spoon. We don't like the uber rich, and I think it sort of pushes people into feeling like anyone that gets a helping hand is that uber rich sort of you know this sort of when I grew up, anyone who had a helping hand from anyone. If you've got a car gifted to you, well you're a silver spoon. But the reality is people need to understand now there is a big difference. Like I said, generationally, we're not getting financially better off anymore. So to keep your next generation going, getting into the copy market earlier enables them to keep that generational financial improvement happening.

I think it's the oldest strain thing of anyone who doesn't do it themselves and work hard, You've just had it gifted to you. It's the old silver spoon. We don't like the uber rich, and I think it sort of pushes people into feeling like anyone that gets a helping hand is that uber rich sort of you know this sort of when I grew up, anyone who had a helping hand from anyone. If you've got a car gifted to you, well you're a silver spoon. But the reality is people need to understand now there is a big difference. Like I said, generationally, we're not getting financially better off anymore. So to keep your next generation going, getting into the copy market earlier enables them to keep that generational financial improvement happening.

It's tough, isn't it, Because I think a lot of people would want to do it themselves. You would want to be able to say, hey, I worked hard, I saved up and I was able to scrape together a deposit and get into the market. But the reality is that it is just not possible for so many people in so many cities around the country that no matter how hard you work, no matter how much you cut your spending in order to save the amount required for a deposit goes up faster than you can actually save. So it does make total sense that if you are fortunate enough to have parents or someone who is in this position who was able to help you, that you do look to those people to give you a hand in this case, so that the stigma it doesn't seem fair, it doesn't seem like an appropriate stigma for the market that we're in at the moment.

It's tough, isn't it, Because I think a lot of people would want to do it themselves. You would want to be able to say, hey, I worked hard, I saved up and I was able to scrape together a deposit and get into the market. But the reality is that it is just not possible for so many people in so many cities around the country that no matter how hard you work, no matter how much you cut your spending in order to save the amount required for a deposit goes up faster than you can actually save. So it does make total sense that if you are fortunate enough to have parents or someone who is in this position who was able to help you, that you do look to those people to give you a hand in this case, so that the stigma it doesn't seem fair, it doesn't seem like an appropriate stigma for the market that we're in at the moment.

Yeah, I think if parents understand, and that's why I outline the difference between income versus the property prices nowadays, and once you understand and that it is tougher nowadays, it is over twice as hard to get into the property than it was twenty thirty years ago. Now, people can also be a little as a parent, you can also be a little bit greedy. I'll use my example. So I've got four kids, three girls and a boy, teenagers and a nine year old, and so Felicti and I realized that in ten years time to get our kids into the property market, they're looking at two hundred thousand dollars a posit each. They're not going to save that. It's just that's not going to happen. So that would mean that we're forking out two hundred thousand dollars for each kid if we want to get them into the property market, so eight hundred thousand dollars. So probably at five years ago we decided that we're going to chip in one deposit. So we purchased a property out in the east of the turbobs of Melbourne for them around six hundred thousand dollars and I've got that set up in a trust. So this gets a little bit more complex. My Fuya of the property investor has got a section and a visual untrust, so people need to understand how they work. They're not as complex as they seem. But I've got set up a trust structure, put a property in that for my kids once I control it, But what's that property doubles in value. I'll then sell that, pay the tax and split the profit between the kids and they can only use it for a deposit of their own home or an investment property. Now, I'll make sure the kids are budgeting and saving and show that they're financially responsible before I do that. But as a parent, that saves me six undergrand and flicty.

Yeah, I think if parents understand, and that's why I outline the difference between income versus the property prices nowadays, and once you understand and that it is tougher nowadays, it is over twice as hard to get into the property than it was twenty thirty years ago. Now, people can also be a little as a parent, you can also be a little bit greedy. I'll use my example. So I've got four kids, three girls and a boy, teenagers and a nine year old, and so Felicti and I realized that in ten years time to get our kids into the property market, they're looking at two hundred thousand dollars a posit each. They're not going to save that. It's just that's not going to happen. So that would mean that we're forking out two hundred thousand dollars for each kid if we want to get them into the property market, so eight hundred thousand dollars. So probably at five years ago we decided that we're going to chip in one deposit. So we purchased a property out in the east of the turbobs of Melbourne for them around six hundred thousand dollars and I've got that set up in a trust. So this gets a little bit more complex. My Fuya of the property investor has got a section and a visual untrust, so people need to understand how they work. They're not as complex as they seem. But I've got set up a trust structure, put a property in that for my kids once I control it, But what's that property doubles in value. I'll then sell that, pay the tax and split the profit between the kids and they can only use it for a deposit of their own home or an investment property. Now, I'll make sure the kids are budgeting and saving and show that they're financially responsible before I do that. But as a parent, that saves me six undergrand and flicty.

That is huge, and I want to get into that in a bit more detail, in a little bit just about the idea of doing this as a long term solution rather than just a short term fix to help someone get into the market. Now that you're actually kind of thinking ahead towards financial future, financial freedom, We're going to take a quick break before we go there, I want to ask you one very broad question about the intergenerational kind of transfer of wealth.

That is huge, and I want to get into that in a bit more detail, in a little bit just about the idea of doing this as a long term solution rather than just a short term fix to help someone get into the market. Now that you're actually kind of thinking ahead towards financial future, financial freedom, We're going to take a quick break before we go there, I want to ask you one very broad question about the intergenerational kind of transfer of wealth.

Right.

Right.

And I'm sorry to get so caught up on this stigma idea, but I love talking about the attitudes towards money. I find this fascinating and this idea of do we need a reset now? Do we need a reset in attitudes towards the bank of mom and dad? Because we are on the verge of and it's already starting the biggest intergenerational wealth transfer in history, right, we are rapidly approaching it. It is already starting. Isn't the bank of mom and Dad? This whole idea just actually getting in slightly early on that, And is that what we should be looking at?

And I'm sorry to get so caught up on this stigma idea, but I love talking about the attitudes towards money. I find this fascinating and this idea of do we need a reset now? Do we need a reset in attitudes towards the bank of mom and dad? Because we are on the verge of and it's already starting the biggest intergenerational wealth transfer in history, right, we are rapidly approaching it. It is already starting. Isn't the bank of mom and Dad? This whole idea just actually getting in slightly early on that, And is that what we should be looking at?

Yeah, I think you nailed it in your intro. If you look at it, if I just held out and gave all my wealth to my kids, when I died. What joy in that is there for me? Yeah, I'd rather give them a little bit. Now. I believe in giving your kids enough to get started, but not enough. They need to do nothing for themselves, and that's really important. Make your kids do work, make sure they know finance, how to control their finances, how to budget, how to plan for the future themselves, before you just hand something to them. But I'd rather see him enjoy it. What's the point of handing over when I'm dead and they're gonna get it anyway, I completely agree.

Yeah, I think you nailed it in your intro. If you look at it, if I just held out and gave all my wealth to my kids, when I died. What joy in that is there for me? Yeah, I'd rather give them a little bit. Now. I believe in giving your kids enough to get started, but not enough. They need to do nothing for themselves, and that's really important. Make your kids do work, make sure they know finance, how to control their finances, how to budget, how to plan for the future themselves, before you just hand something to them. But I'd rather see him enjoy it. What's the point of handing over when I'm dead and they're gonna get it anyway, I completely agree.

And also, if you're in a position where you can actually help to some capacity and your kids are stressed, overwhelmed, exhausted and like burning themselves out trying to get together this deposit, whilst, as you say it, whilst you're alive and healthy, you can help them and you can watch them and also watch their growth and as you said, guide them. So I completely agree with you. If if you're in a fortunate position.

And also, if you're in a position where you can actually help to some capacity and your kids are stressed, overwhelmed, exhausted and like burning themselves out trying to get together this deposit, whilst, as you say it, whilst you're alive and healthy, you can help them and you can watch them and also watch their growth and as you said, guide them. So I completely agree with you. If if you're in a fortunate position.

Yeah, And that's the thing that this is not for everyone, and it's not going to suit everyone, but for those people who it does suit, And because we are coming up on that big transfer of wealth, there are a lot of people that do find themselves in this. But so really that is kind of who we're talking to right now.

Yeah, And that's the thing that this is not for everyone, and it's not going to suit everyone, but for those people who it does suit, And because we are coming up on that big transfer of wealth, there are a lot of people that do find themselves in this. But so really that is kind of who we're talking to right now.

Yeah, and it is the majority of Australians. Anyone who has owned a home for ten twenty years. As a parent, you're in a position now you can help your kids get into the market, do it safely. So it's not just for the uber rich.

Yeah, and it is the majority of Australians. Anyone who has owned a home for ten twenty years. As a parent, you're in a position now you can help your kids get into the market, do it safely. So it's not just for the uber rich.

Yeah, Okay, Look, there's a bit more we want to talk about. We want to talk about some more strategy side of it and also some of the risks and how to kind of help to mitigate and navigate some of those risks within it. We'll take a quick break and we'll be back in a moment. Canna, We are talking today about the bank of Mum and Dad, and we have a guest in the studio. We are joined by Cam McClelland, CEO, co founder of Opencorp and the author of the brilliantly named book My four year Old The Property Investor, which has been a best seller now for a number of years, hasn't it Cam?

Yeah, Okay, Look, there's a bit more we want to talk about. We want to talk about some more strategy side of it and also some of the risks and how to kind of help to mitigate and navigate some of those risks within it. We'll take a quick break and we'll be back in a moment. Canna, We are talking today about the bank of Mum and Dad, and we have a guest in the studio. We are joined by Cam McClelland, CEO, co founder of Opencorp and the author of the brilliantly named book My four year Old The Property Investor, which has been a best seller now for a number of years, hasn't it Cam?

Yeah, it's very well. I've actually wrote it fifteen years ago and Tennish was going overseas and said to my wife, I've got a list knowledge on property investing that I put together. I write a journal for my kids. A year later, I was still writing it and send it out to a couple of people and edited. A publisher grabhold of it and it's been the number one property investment selling book for the last decade. So I speak fairly simply. So I've taken complex subjects and outline them so people can understand them in a simple fashion.

Yeah, it's very well. I've actually wrote it fifteen years ago and Tennish was going overseas and said to my wife, I've got a list knowledge on property investing that I put together. I write a journal for my kids. A year later, I was still writing it and send it out to a couple of people and edited. A publisher grabhold of it and it's been the number one property investment selling book for the last decade. So I speak fairly simply. So I've taken complex subjects and outline them so people can understand them in a simple fashion.

That's a ripper. And I want to delve into a couple of the kind of strategies within this. And we've got a little bit of time left, so I want to talk to you about co investing because it is a big chunk of what you do and you've got a lot of you help a lot of people with this. What is co investing? How does it work?

That's a ripper. And I want to delve into a couple of the kind of strategies within this. And we've got a little bit of time left, so I want to talk to you about co investing because it is a big chunk of what you do and you've got a lot of you help a lot of people with this. What is co investing? How does it work?

Yeah, so people who may not be in the position to use the bank of mum and dad. Often it comes with friends who want to invest together. So you've saved up half the deposit, knowing that the property market is moving so fast and it's really hard to save ahead of the growth of the market if you've got half a deposit each We provide a basic agreement template, but the basic concept of co investing is two people will pull their money together as a deposit and costs buy an investment property. It's really important that you use that as an investment property. So you've got rental income that covers the cost of the holding costs of the property, so that individually, you don't want to be waiting on your friend to chip in some money. So there's some basic rules we put in place to keep it really safe and keep friends happy. That rental income covers the holding costs of the property with some taxation benefits. Then the agreement is after a certain period of time or a certain amount of growth in the property, the property is sold, the tax paid, and the profits split. Now, the profits of that time should be enough or a larger amount to go towards the deposits of each individual's property themselves. So it's about making sure you get into the market, get the growth of the market before it goes up too quick. If you can't do it yourself, come investing is a really good second option.

Yeah, so people who may not be in the position to use the bank of mum and dad. Often it comes with friends who want to invest together. So you've saved up half the deposit, knowing that the property market is moving so fast and it's really hard to save ahead of the growth of the market if you've got half a deposit each We provide a basic agreement template, but the basic concept of co investing is two people will pull their money together as a deposit and costs buy an investment property. It's really important that you use that as an investment property. So you've got rental income that covers the cost of the holding costs of the property, so that individually, you don't want to be waiting on your friend to chip in some money. So there's some basic rules we put in place to keep it really safe and keep friends happy. That rental income covers the holding costs of the property with some taxation benefits. Then the agreement is after a certain period of time or a certain amount of growth in the property, the property is sold, the tax paid, and the profits split. Now, the profits of that time should be enough or a larger amount to go towards the deposits of each individual's property themselves. So it's about making sure you get into the market, get the growth of the market before it goes up too quick. If you can't do it yourself, come investing is a really good second option.

Okay, this sounds great, but what you need to look out for and how do you avoid those risks?

Okay, this sounds great, but what you need to look out for and how do you avoid those risks?

Yeah, making sure that you're both putting in enough deposit that the property is cash flow positive and you keep a small buffer on the side should you lose a tenant because you don't want you you want the property to wash its own face financially. Then the other thing is making sure that you both have a clear agreement that one of you may it might be ten years down the track, you agree to sell this thing. So it's a matter of looking at it long term. It's not a get rich quick. It's a matter of trying to build some wealth over the long term. And you've got a set agreement in time about selling that property and splitting the profits out after the tax is paid and then you can go on your own merry way. But the agreement needs to be really clear that if one person wants to sell beforehand, that that's not the case.

Yeah, making sure that you're both putting in enough deposit that the property is cash flow positive and you keep a small buffer on the side should you lose a tenant because you don't want you you want the property to wash its own face financially. Then the other thing is making sure that you both have a clear agreement that one of you may it might be ten years down the track, you agree to sell this thing. So it's a matter of looking at it long term. It's not a get rich quick. It's a matter of trying to build some wealth over the long term. And you've got a set agreement in time about selling that property and splitting the profits out after the tax is paid and then you can go on your own merry way. But the agreement needs to be really clear that if one person wants to sell beforehand, that that's not the case.

So can I ask you about open corp And I'm just interested in and when we're talking about the risks, right and we're talking about the importance of having everything documented and having everything kind of done legally and carefully and making sure that it is all out in the open, nice and transparent. When someone comes to you at open Corp and you are sitting down with them, is it as much about kind of discovery and trying to find what is going to be the right solution for them, and then kind of helping them through navigate those risks, making sure it is all set up in a clear and transparent way, and tailoring the solution to the person and going okay, you know what, You're probably not in a situation where the bank of Mum Dad's going to help you, but co investing might work. This is what you need to be aware of.

So can I ask you about open corp And I'm just interested in and when we're talking about the risks, right and we're talking about the importance of having everything documented and having everything kind of done legally and carefully and making sure that it is all out in the open, nice and transparent. When someone comes to you at open Corp and you are sitting down with them, is it as much about kind of discovery and trying to find what is going to be the right solution for them, and then kind of helping them through navigate those risks, making sure it is all set up in a clear and transparent way, and tailoring the solution to the person and going okay, you know what, You're probably not in a situation where the bank of Mum Dad's going to help you, but co investing might work. This is what you need to be aware of.

Yeah. Correct. So we set the business up twenty year year ago. Now it's twenty years this year, so it use time flies. But when we were looking at it, the strategy that I put in place when the Melbourne prices had grown and I wanted to then invest in a different capital city to get that growth, I needed a process to basically analyze each of the capital cities. Where we created a process called MAP, which is Market Area Property. Now that you think about the ten point six million properties in Australia, if you try and compare property A with property B, and then the winner of that compare with property C, it's impossible to do. So we wanted a process to knock out large portions of option. So what we wanted to get is the best property the right point in time in the right market, which you'll get the growth that you can duplicate. So we've got an analytics team about eighty team members around Australia who analyze each of the capital city markets, look at the growth corridors and then find the optim sized quality property for each area. So when a client comes for us, we'll sit down with them have a look at a ten to fifteen year strategy. We've got an Australian Financial services license. There's some specific advice we can give, some we can't. We'll work through the strategy with them. Depending on what their outcome is, we'll set up the finance. We've got in house mortgage broking. We then find the right property for them. We've got property management around Australia, and then we've got a mentoring team which look after clients for life.

Yeah. Correct. So we set the business up twenty year year ago. Now it's twenty years this year, so it use time flies. But when we were looking at it, the strategy that I put in place when the Melbourne prices had grown and I wanted to then invest in a different capital city to get that growth, I needed a process to basically analyze each of the capital cities. Where we created a process called MAP, which is Market Area Property. Now that you think about the ten point six million properties in Australia, if you try and compare property A with property B, and then the winner of that compare with property C, it's impossible to do. So we wanted a process to knock out large portions of option. So what we wanted to get is the best property the right point in time in the right market, which you'll get the growth that you can duplicate. So we've got an analytics team about eighty team members around Australia who analyze each of the capital city markets, look at the growth corridors and then find the optim sized quality property for each area. So when a client comes for us, we'll sit down with them have a look at a ten to fifteen year strategy. We've got an Australian Financial services license. There's some specific advice we can give, some we can't. We'll work through the strategy with them. Depending on what their outcome is, we'll set up the finance. We've got in house mortgage broking. We then find the right property for them. We've got property management around Australia, and then we've got a mentoring team which look after clients for life.

I have to ask this question. I know, I understand you obviously do all the dotting, all the eyes and crossing the t's, but have you ever seen it go wrong?

I have to ask this question. I know, I understand you obviously do all the dotting, all the eyes and crossing the t's, but have you ever seen it go wrong?

Yeah, we made a mistakes ourselves early days when it came to I like your honesty.

Yeah, we made a mistakes ourselves early days when it came to I like your honesty.

Yeah, no, that's good. Actually it's really And the fact is, of course across twenty years, you're going to see a range of things.

Yeah, no, that's good. Actually it's really And the fact is, of course across twenty years, you're going to see a range of things.

Right, Yeah, so there's different levels of going wrong. Now, I'll do this clearly really quick. My father in law, I talked my wife who my now wife, plus he was nineteen at the time. We came home and I talked her into buying a property. So I've done a few due locks and triocs, small developments by that stage myself in my early twenties. And we came home and told her father, Pete, that I just bought that. She she has just bought her first property without the influence of her father. So he fully got the He was not happy about this situation. And then we told him it's not just an investment property. He didn't speak for about now it's not just an investment property. We're going to build four units on the back of it. Now. The problem we had this is one of the biggest property mistakes I've made. So we bought a three hund and seventy thousand dollars, got plans made up, we had a huge amount of land on the back of it, got the design made up. But because we had a lot of land, the designs by the draftsmen were quite large. They were going to cost about forty thousand dollars per unit each to build over what we'd get in sale value, so it was going to cost one hundred and sixty grand too much. We over capitalized on the designs. We ended up selling that property for five hundred and twelve thousand with the plans and permits got out of it. But the lesson we've got which has been instilled in open Corp now is building the optimal size and quality property or buying the optimal size and quality property for a specific area. Every suburb in Melbourne, in Sydney, Brisbane, Perth is different, so we make sure we analyze each area. So we've taken the mistakes and lessons that we've made and built to reduce risk. Probably one of the other big impacts where we haven't got it perfect. In Perth. We put a lot of clients into Perth twenty twenty twenty twenty one. Now those clients have got hundreds of thousand dollars worth of capital growth. But there was a long period of time there where there was a trade and supply shortage in Perth where building was just slow, so there was a cash flow impact to some clients that had to hold that property while it was getting built, that weren't getting rental income in so a lot of them we worked with to get through that situation. Now the outside of that is that they're two hundred of clients who have got that growth in Perth are now buying over in this coast over here. But it's not if it was easy everyone to be doing it. But it's a matter of looking at all the risks along the process and reducing it and putting buffers in place to make sure people aren't financially impacted.

Right, Yeah, so there's different levels of going wrong. Now, I'll do this clearly really quick. My father in law, I talked my wife who my now wife, plus he was nineteen at the time. We came home and I talked her into buying a property. So I've done a few due locks and triocs, small developments by that stage myself in my early twenties. And we came home and told her father, Pete, that I just bought that. She she has just bought her first property without the influence of her father. So he fully got the He was not happy about this situation. And then we told him it's not just an investment property. He didn't speak for about now it's not just an investment property. We're going to build four units on the back of it. Now. The problem we had this is one of the biggest property mistakes I've made. So we bought a three hund and seventy thousand dollars, got plans made up, we had a huge amount of land on the back of it, got the design made up. But because we had a lot of land, the designs by the draftsmen were quite large. They were going to cost about forty thousand dollars per unit each to build over what we'd get in sale value, so it was going to cost one hundred and sixty grand too much. We over capitalized on the designs. We ended up selling that property for five hundred and twelve thousand with the plans and permits got out of it. But the lesson we've got which has been instilled in open Corp now is building the optimal size and quality property or buying the optimal size and quality property for a specific area. Every suburb in Melbourne, in Sydney, Brisbane, Perth is different, so we make sure we analyze each area. So we've taken the mistakes and lessons that we've made and built to reduce risk. Probably one of the other big impacts where we haven't got it perfect. In Perth. We put a lot of clients into Perth twenty twenty twenty twenty one. Now those clients have got hundreds of thousand dollars worth of capital growth. But there was a long period of time there where there was a trade and supply shortage in Perth where building was just slow, so there was a cash flow impact to some clients that had to hold that property while it was getting built, that weren't getting rental income in so a lot of them we worked with to get through that situation. Now the outside of that is that they're two hundred of clients who have got that growth in Perth are now buying over in this coast over here. But it's not if it was easy everyone to be doing it. But it's a matter of looking at all the risks along the process and reducing it and putting buffers in place to make sure people aren't financially impacted.

All right, can I We've only got about sixty seconds left, so I wanted to ask you one question to wrap things up, because your story is inspirational. What you have been able to achieve yourself as inspirational. How then do people use this the bank of mom and Dad as a long term strategy that it is not just kind of okay, getting a place to live now or getting an investment property now. How can they do it so that it is perhaps creating like an intergenerational kind of wealth, changing the path of a family by getting into it now. And I know I've asked you a lot that I use probably half you're allotted time just in the question, but in kind of sixty seconds or less.

All right, can I We've only got about sixty seconds left, so I wanted to ask you one question to wrap things up, because your story is inspirational. What you have been able to achieve yourself as inspirational. How then do people use this the bank of mom and Dad as a long term strategy that it is not just kind of okay, getting a place to live now or getting an investment property now. How can they do it so that it is perhaps creating like an intergenerational kind of wealth, changing the path of a family by getting into it now. And I know I've asked you a lot that I use probably half you're allotted time just in the question, but in kind of sixty seconds or less.

How all right? So you create two plans, one for the parents, one for the kids. The plan for the parents is how do I use some of my equity or guarantee to get the kids into the property market. Plan for the kids is over fifteen years. What are you trying to achieve? Do you want to build a property portfolio? Do you want to get your own primary place of residents in the suburb that you desire? And those two plans are outlined, and we find the best properties for those individuals to get the to that goal, and we hold the hand and mentor them along the way to make sure we get there. We've got clients we've been dealing with who are grandparents, parents and kids. So with three generationals of investors in working with open Corps, so it's a good feeling. We're not solving cancer, but we're making the lives financially of thousands of Australians better down the track.

How all right? So you create two plans, one for the parents, one for the kids. The plan for the parents is how do I use some of my equity or guarantee to get the kids into the property market. Plan for the kids is over fifteen years. What are you trying to achieve? Do you want to build a property portfolio? Do you want to get your own primary place of residents in the suburb that you desire? And those two plans are outlined, and we find the best properties for those individuals to get the to that goal, and we hold the hand and mentor them along the way to make sure we get there. We've got clients we've been dealing with who are grandparents, parents and kids. So with three generationals of investors in working with open Corps, so it's a good feeling. We're not solving cancer, but we're making the lives financially of thousands of Australians better down the track.

That is amazing.

That is amazing.

That sounds pretty good to me.

That sounds pretty good to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, as soon as you start talking about kind of long term change and financial freedom, it is a pretty enticing prospect.

Yeah, as soon as you start talking about kind of long term change and financial freedom, it is a pretty enticing prospect.

Rich quick equals lose money fast. It's all about long term play.

Rich quick equals lose money fast. It's all about long term play.

It's starting to sound like Canna. That's hard think, Oh yeah, of course it's great. All right, Well, I think we can close Pandora's box having fully explored it's a terribly mangled metaphor.

It's starting to sound like Canna. That's hard think, Oh yeah, of course it's great. All right, Well, I think we can close Pandora's box having fully explored it's a terribly mangled metaphor.

It's a thing now.

It's a thing now.

I don't know whether it's going to catch on. Cam, thank you so much for coming in. It's been great to talk to you.

I don't know whether it's going to catch on. Cam, thank you so much for coming in. It's been great to talk to you.

Pleasure to talk to both you.

Pleasure to talk to both you.

That was Cam McClellan, CEO and co founder of Open Corp, the author of my four year old The Property Investor, and a supporter of this podcast Canna.

That was Cam McClellan, CEO and co founder of Open Corp, the author of my four year old The Property Investor, and a supporter of this podcast Canna.

Fascinating stuff, brilliant and you know we've just had International Women's Day and this year's themes accelerate and it really does touch on you know what we've just listened to about making generational change, but making that change hopefully happen a lot quicker.

Fascinating stuff, brilliant and you know we've just had International Women's Day and this year's themes accelerate and it really does touch on you know what we've just listened to about making generational change, but making that change hopefully happen a lot quicker.

Yeah, that's amazing now can it? If we want to find more information from you, where do we find you?

Yeah, that's amazing now can it? If we want to find more information from you, where do we find you?

Best place to get contact with me is on Instagram at Canna Campbell Official or obviously each for God on my TV.

Best place to get contact with me is on Instagram at Canna Campbell Official or obviously each for God on my TV.

And you can hear me every day with Sean Aylmer on Fear and Greed, Daily business news for people who make their own decisions. Thank you for listening to How Do They Afford That? Remember to hit follow on the podcast, and the very best thing you can do is tell somebody else send them the link to this episode. Spread the word about how do they afford that? Thank you for your company. Join us again next week

And you can hear me every day with Sean Aylmer on Fear and Greed, Daily business news for people who make their own decisions. Thank you for listening to How Do They Afford That? Remember to hit follow on the podcast, and the very best thing you can do is tell somebody else send them the link to this episode. Spread the word about how do they afford that? Thank you for your company. Join us again next week