Legendary Comedian & Host, Murray Hill

Published Oct 23, 2023, 7:01 AM

Isaac Mizrahi chats with trans icon, Murray Hill, about his conservative upbringing, how he discovered his persona, his biggest regret and more.

Follow Hello Isaac on @helloisaacpodcast on Instagram and TikTok, Isaac @imisaacmizrahi on Instagram and TikTok and Murray Hill on Instagram @murrayhill.

(Recorded on September 28, 2023)

It's hard to tell if I was funny before all the bad things happened. But you know, I quickly learned that disarming people, meeting them at a common ground and making them laugh was a way to connect with people, a wait for people to see who I was like on a human level, and a way to protect myself. So those defense mechanisms I created to survive as a young kid have brought me this. Never I would have imagined it's a full career.

That's right.

Poor values that same way I interact with people now it's you know, that's who I am.

This is Hello Isaac, my podcast about the idea of success and how failure affects him. I'm Isaac Musrahi and in this episode I talked to the legendary comedian and host mister Show himself, Murray Hill.

Isaac, is that you did you actually pick up?

I can't tell if it's a voiceover AI, Isaac, it's Murray You there, buddy.

He's probably watching some gay things.

Anyway, Isaac, it's your friend, Murray Hill. I can't wait to talk to you, and I got a question for him.

I getting paid for this.

Like all New Yorkers, I have origin stories. I mean, you know, growing up in Brooklyn, being obsessed with New York City, going to high school in New York City, driving my giant car into New York City. When I was a young adult, one of the great parts of my life was going to parties. Parties were like a big part of my life. Clubs and parties. Suzanne Barsh used to throw these parties. Paper Magazine through parties regularly, and before the Internet, there were you know, flyers, and somehow we got the flyers. I don't know how we got the flyers, and we all showed up for this party, and I remember all of the personalities at these parties, like you know, Amanda La Poor and Debbie Maser and Rue Paul and Lady Bunny, et cetera. And one of those people that I used to look forward to seeing at these parties was Murray Hill. That's how I knew about Murray Hill. I did not see comedy shows with Murray Hill. I saw him at parties, and even from that time, he was so integrated that there was almost like a weird privacy that surrounded Murray Hill. And I've always wanted to like delve into things with Murray Hill and really get a sense of the person who created the persona of Murray Hill. And so I'm kind of excited and I'm a little bit nervous. I don't want to get this wrong because I've admired him for so so so and I want to get this right. So come with me. Let's do it. Here we go, Murray Hill. Hi, yo, bro, what's up? What's going on? I can't believe this. Wait. First of all, before I even start, I'm going to ask you, what is your preferred pronoun?

It's yaba dabba doo ha.

All right, I we'll forget that. I'm just gonna call that. Can I call you yaba? Darling? Can I refer to you as yaba?

Yes?

I know I'm so old, you know with the pole pronoun. I appreciate you asking just he or kim or it?

All right? From l I wouldn't call you from the years I know you, I would always call you he. I mean seriously, by the way, speaking of being old, have you googled yourself darling because you can't find out how fucking old you are?

Oh?

Really?

And I mean it. I think you've edited it from your Wikipedia page something.

You know.

I looked on my Wikipedia page like two years ago, and it said that I do I did private parties.

For Vonna Trump. I was like, what, So I've never looked back since.

Then, right, what's wow? That is crazy? And by the way, you still haven't said how old you are, so don't say it.

Well never, Isaac, I'm as old. I'm now as old as my character.

Okay, okay, nice, I know, but that's the thing I can't figure out. And the thing is, like, Darling, I remember going to Suzanne barsh parties in like the nineties and seeing like Debbie Masar and Amanda Lapour and you, okay, like that, so I know you.

Well, I'm younger. I mean, everybody's younger than Amanda. But so I'm younger than Amanda, Okay, and I'm younger than Lady Bunny, and so is Joe Biden.

Right exactly. Oh, it's so true. Now the shade, the shade, the library is open. Yes, But Darling, you were in the party scene then, and you were an comedian then, and you were an actor, and for all of your camp and your stick and your loud voice and the comedy and everything, I feel like you're a very private guy, you know, like I don't know. I mean, I'm a little scared to ask you questions about your personal life, which we will eventually get to, you know.

But well, Isaac, I got a comment about to tell me. First of all, you can ask me whatever you want, all right.

But you know, I did come from New York downtown nightlife.

So that's what you did.

Murray was born, and that's where you know I I, you know, got my chops. So I didn't come up through the comedy clubs or any of that crap.

I would like the Shakespeare Academy in London or something.

No, none of that avenue A avenue b right, see, you know, anything below fourteenth. So I came up through the clubs and you know with Jackie.

Beet and yes, Bunny, lady Bunny, and I know, oh god, and I love so much. And I feel like I am like an honorary member or a member because I used to go to those parties constantly, you know, at the Mudd Club, at the Pyramid Club and the Mud Club and wig Stock and all those parties. I was there and I used to see you there. And so Murray Hill, first of all, the name is the best name in the world. But murray Hill is a kind of a construct of the party scene, right it is.

I mean it has some roots.

So obviously, you know, when you choose to do this for a living, you know there's a backstory. Yes, So you know, I grew up in a very conservative household, closeted, homophobic.

Right ring everything like them.

Really, I was.

Part of that generation and many generations before me that were like I need to get to New York City to find myself, to find my people and and to you know, be accepted.

It's as easy as that.

So when I got to New York, you know, I didn't know anything about anything, and a friend of mine had started a club at Flamingo East, the club Night, which is where Kekey and Herb start.

Yes, exactly exactly.

So that's when I started, you know, doing so I guess drag. I didn't even have a name or anything, right, But so I came to New York.

I was taken for where you came from.

Where New England, New England?

Okay, somewhere New England, Oh god, yeah, Like and it's not stars Hollow, It's not like the Gilmore Girls, New England. It's like some other scary now.

It's place where people like us did it Belore, Yes, right, And I'm backtracking. But in undergrad college, I was a photography student Isaac and I got really obsessed with Nan Golden and Diane Arbus.

And I was a young, little ignorant schmuck.

I didn't know anything about anything, and I snuck into the gay clubs and I said, I was a photographer in Hampshire.

Okay, Boston, Yeah, in Boston.

And guess who I took pictures of. This is like, I don't know, early nineties.

I can't even think who would it be?

Lipsynca, Lady Bunny, Garlina and Candas Kane.

Because I had to do a back then, of course, so all of all of these famous New York drag queens.

I was taking pictures of them when I was like twenty.

Friends with all of them. Anyway, So then I came to New York.

I thought I was going to do photography, and I was at Wigstock with Lady Bunny on the West Side Highway right, and I was.

Like, and I was like, everybody's doing this. This is ridiculous.

Everybody's taking pictures drags.

With cameras and anyway, I literally was what's on the other side? So I found on HX magazine. Do you remember that magazine?

Do? Of course? I think I was on the cover of HX magazine times, maybe even a few times.

Yeah, So I remember you had a cover from that and there was a drag king pageant listed at hershey.

Bar oh oh darling.

The meat package.

So I lied and said I was with the Village Voice and went in there and took photos and it was all these draggings, but they were like passing and it wasn't like.

Funny or anything. So that's where I was like, oh, I could this needs some camp, This needs from humor, some fun right, lot story short.

I got to New York, I became the subject matter that I didn't see Isaac.

Right, right, because that's like a famous quote of yours.

If you don't see yourself represented, go out and represent yourself.

Right exactly. So like like pee Wee, like Paul Rubins for instance, right, pee Wee was a character of Paul Rubin's imagination. But I feel like in your case it's a little bit different in that there isn't a Paul Rubens behind the Murray Hill persona like you are this very early and very integrated trans kind of icon, you know, like female to male trans icon. Right.

Yeah, so anyway, but by mentioning Lady Bunny and coming up in the nightclub scene, you know, back then there was this drag etiquette, right, there was nobody said trans or non but those words didn't even exist.

So they did not exist.

So for example, back then, Lady Bunny and Jackie bet you never I still don't know what their names are, right.

I don't know. I don't I know Bunny And if I saw her on the street as a non drag.

Queen, you'd call the cops.

Ah, well, I would call the cops, but I would also remember what they look like without a big giant you know, Dusty Springfield wig.

But yeah, so so you know when I came up in the drag scene in New York. Two things, you didn't reveal your quote unquote dead name.

Right.

You stayed in your persona. Nobody asked you about your parents, where you're from. You know, if you have a job. You just existed as how you presented yourself in nightlife.

And that's and that's kind of the world recreated to live in.

Right, So yeah, that was beautiful about it like that was the beauty clean slate. I could you know, have this awful child that not be accepted, be you know, discriminating against all little little all that crap.

And then you go to a club on Avenue A all.

That is gone gone in this persona and you know, I get to like start my life over as a new chapter. Wow, there wasn't a reveal.

You know. They're like the kids today. They do a lot of revealing.

Yes, yes, oh I'm after a who And is there ever a moment where you bolt up in bed with some kind of crazy emotion that you don't understand because of that absolute kind of disconnect with your past that took place whenever it was you got to New York. Is that a fair question?

Oh, it's a total fair question.

And that happened probably about maybe nine years ago. And I would say that was what we call in the business a nervous breakdown.

It happened once, because Darling, it happens to me every day.

Well, no, I don't want to scare your viewers.

I've had a couple in your case though. In your case, what I mean is this real identity thing where you go, Okay, I made this up and it's great and everybody loves it and I love it and I love myself. But where is the little girl or whoever it was that was there before? Is she somewhere? And I use the word she lightly, but you see what I mean because I'm just afraid. I don't want to offend anybody, But you know, who is that little person that was left behind? Is there a moment?

Yeah, I've been in therapy for like thirty five years. Me too, spent about seven million dollars on therapy. Somehow they don't take insurance and me, yeah exactly. So yeah, you know, I used to drink a lot, used to do drugs a lot, I used to do everything, all thing, and you know, eventually it all caught up with me. I was living this other life, but the past was dragging me down. And then I was just you know, getting into the booze and getting into the drugs. So eventually something had a break and it did mm hmm. And my shrink actually has said what you said. It's like, you can't ignore the little girl. You can't ignore your past. You have to integrate it, I think, so yeah, and learn from it and not you know, have it be this thing where you're like, right, So you know I did have a crack, and you know it was rough getting out of that. And you know, now, I would say the last like maybe five to ten years, I do have a private life.

I've always had a private life.

But yeah, you know, it's it's more like, Okay, this is showbiz, this is stick.

Now.

You know, I'm going to like try to be a normal person. I have a girlfriend that I actually like, that's not a show girl, that's not an actress. I do sometimes go to brunch with her, Isaac. I'm not saying I'm a hetero.

Norman drag brunch. You're just going to a regular old, like fucking brunch. So let's let's let's talk about this for a minute. Because you got to New York in what year now, I think it was ninety two, ninety two? And where did you live? What was your first apartment? What was your first place?

Isaac?

My god, I can't wait to hear this story because first apartment, Starling tell me everything.

Go It is like the.

Movies that you see when you're in the suburbs looking at New York City.

You ready for this. My first it wasn't even apartment.

It was a room, of course, bathroom all right, at the George Washington Hotel.

No, it was not lived there.

It was on twenty third Street and Lexington.

So you were at the George Washington Hotel.

Which is now a fancy hotel.

Yes it is so.

So again, I'm coming from New England. I didn't know anything.

I literally, you know, had a U haul and got dropped off in front and I was like, what the hell is this?

I go up in the elevator. I had no idea.

It was a mental illness Veterans' hotel.

Hotel at that point.

Wow.

And they had a whole room like they had a row off for a school visual students.

But we were mixed. We were mixed with the.

With the veterans people and veterans.

And so I opened this door and I couldn't even fit into it. It was a bed, a desk and a refrigerator and there was one window, and it literally there was bricks.

I couldn't get into the bathroom. And I wasn't even that chubby back then.

You like going like this side And was it cheap? Was it one hundred dollars a week? How much what did you pay for I remember.

I think I remember because you know it then it sounded so exorbitant.

It was like six hundred ninety five a months.

Wow, that's still so low, I mean even for one room. Yeah.

And then you know, I remember like crazy you know, crazy men would be just losing their minds and they'd be walking in the hallway with like a tin cup.

But every up and down. I remember.

Oh, so I actually wept first I got in and I was like, oh my god, I just started crying.

Because I understand that, But I also think was there this kind of feeling that you had left something behind and that you felt so free? You know. I remember like the first apartment I ever got, I went the night before before I moved in, and there was no electricity and I just sat there in the dark, and I was like, this is the greatest night of my life. There will never be a better night than this in my entire life. And so far I've been right about that. You know. It just was such a feeling of just letting good go of something that I disliked so much. You know, did you have that kind of experience or was it just.

Took me a minute?

It took me a minute, because, as I said, I came from a very conservative family. So you know, New York City was the devil right criminals, gay people, sinners hosting. Meanwhile, here I.

Am the ringleader at Jovis exactly. Yeah.

It took me a minute, and I would say, like two weeks after I got to New York I was because you know, they blocked off Central Park so you could, you know, ride your bike. Aself, I was rollerblading at Cuchral Park being like this.

Is awfume, Oh look at all these great people, look at all these different kind of people. I'm like, whoas a com minute? But then you know I haven't stopped since.

Did you have an aspiration to become a photographer?

Was that?

It was that what brought you to New York City? Interesting?

Okay, documentary photographer, right, and.

So of course, like seeing as how that's difficult work to find in nineteen ninety two, for a let's say a twenty something year old Murray Hill who's still is not you are still not revealing your age, okay, John fifty something? Oh you're fifty something? Okay, But I mean, did you get a job as a waiter? Did you get a job as a technician or a boater or something. What did it?

I'm remembering all these things. Okay.

So when I was in grad school, I was at grad school School of Visual Arts.

Okay, So is that why you came to the city to go to the School of Visual Arts? Ah?

Yeah, and to get out. I knew somewhere deep down I had to get out. But I also had the sense to know not to just be dropped off, you know, in the ark with no structure or place to live or any of.

That kind of stuff.

So it didn't take long because my friends from Boston had already started a club night at Flamengo East, right, So pretty soon I was involved with that. I didn't have a character, so I was in school, and then I came up with the Murray character, right. And then the first thing I did as Murray that got me pressed and all that stuff was I ran for Mayor of New York against Giuliani.

For Darling. I full on remember.

What a lot of people don't know is I was still in school.

Honestly, I may have in my paper archive some kind of a flyer about this. I swear to God, I swear to you.

Yeah. Yeah, paper was great.

I don't even mean paper magazine. I mean I have like a big archive of every flyer that I got, because you remember what it was like. People don't understand. Before the internet, before before phones and alerts and stuff, there were paper flyers that you would see in a design room if you were me, like right, or in a restaurant if you were me, that would say, like, go to jump to this club, go to the Brooklyn Bridge that night because someone's having a party on the Brooklyn Bridge on the lower level. You know, like that's how you did it right, and people got there? And so when did your trans identity come to you?

Well, okay, so this is a generational difference, I know, right, because you know I didn't know.

Well, no, it's good for the kids to hear, but I didn't know what trans was.

Right.

There was no language. You were either a fag or a dyke or.

Grown up, and those things were negative, not negative because the were slaying you know, because we people don't use those words now. They were used as as things that people said to you to make fun of you.

Right, But in the community, you know, in the.

Community, I would love the word fag, I would love the word dyke. I would love all those words.

Yes, and that's what I came from.

So you know too, growing up, you know, I never I never thought I was a girl.

Never never thought I was a girl.

You know, I always pretty much look like this without the mustache, and now I have cheek boats. I mean I had cheek boats back then.

Get ozembic and you have a mustache, which is like, what is that? Man? That is so fantastic. It's the greatest thing showbiz. Okay, go on, go on, keep talking.

So anyway, the only word that people used and that I could understand back then was tomboy, right, So tomboy, tomboy, tom boy, you know, elementary school, junior, high school, high school, all the same.

There's still no nothing.

So it wasn't until I mean I would even say, like eight years ago. You know, you remember when Justin wrote an article to the New York Times.

Yes, justin 're talking about yeah.

About pronouns and things like that.

And when I first got into the Times, a big feature, they I fought with them tooth and nail because they wanted to call Murray she right, and they wanted to preak my birth name and all this stuff. So it was like a full battle, but they didn't understand.

They didn't get it.

But there also wasn't the words like okay, trans dead name, There was none of that. So they actually put my birth name in and called me she is Murray, and you know I had to write it. You know, this was before Justin wrote the letter, So as far as understanding what transgender was, it was like relatively recent for a guy my age.

So it's a little complicated. But I don't.

I really this part of being an old school and part of being in fifties and just my political beliefs. I personally don't like to identify through my sexuality or my orientation or my gender because you know, in my mind, I think once you start doing that, then I'm making myself different than the average straight heterosexual person because they don't go around saying I'm straight.

Yes right by like male married, yeah, exactly right.

And so my whole act is about this. My whole way of living is I just want.

To be equal. That's my whole thing.

I want equality, and to me, that has a lot to do with language. Now, it doesn't mean I don't say I'm this or I say that I'm not, but I don't lead with that, right.

I think part of part of it might be that, like, you know, because you're talking about words like tomboy and I'm thinking, like, okay, Like I don't know if Murray Hill was ever bullied as a young person, you know in Boston, Like was it an awful awful for you?

Well, you know you said something like did Murray get bullied?

Right?

And like no, And Murray is a is a creation and a persona that was created as a shield in a way, a defense, as a defense mechanisms, a coping mechanism.

Yeah, you know, I've had some issues for sure, but.

You know, Murray is the one that is the you know, disarming, relatable uncle.

You know, can be in any crowd.

He's he doesn't get bullied, he doesn't get you know, harassed on occasion. So in the past, my biologic family did not accept me in any way. You know, I had a lot of incidences, you know, I had things thrown at me. I've hed things said at me, you know, and and a lot of things happened, you know in my formative years that I was very ignorant about because I didn't know what they.

Were talking about.

I see, But I knew that it was bad, you know what I mean, Like I was gonna called the dyke and this and that, Like when I was playing sports and like saying all these things.

I was like, what are the fuck are they even talking about?

Because you know, we didn't have any internet or you know, I had literally grown up as a fucking ex Catholic. You know, everything's bad, everything's the sins.

I didn't think. You know, all I knew was bad, bad, bad, right? You know?

Were there any benefits to feeling those feelings and getting somewhere and you know what I mean? Was there anything special about being this early trans person?

Well I think that, you know, it made me, you know, sink or swim right very quickly as a young person. And you know, it's hard to tell if I was funny before all the bad things happened.

Who the fuck knows. I can never figure that out. But you know, I.

Quickly learned that disarming people, meeting them at a common ground and making them laugh was a way to connect with people, a wait for people to see who I was like on a human level, and a way to protect myself. So in a sense that those defense mechanisms I created to survive as a young kid. You know, have you know brought me this? Never I would have imagined it's a full career, that's right. Poor values that same way I interact with people.

I mean, now it's you know, that's who I am.

Yeah, so you know, it sucks that I had to learn empathy and you know, acceptance and love and all that stuff through adversity.

Adversity, but here we are. That's my best So.

And does it ever occur to you? Because something I talk about a lot on this podcast, like I was really good friends with Sandra Bernhard before I was performing myself. I would watch her perform and I would go into her dressing room in advance and she'd be like, you know, in tears, like absolutely not understanding why she was about to go out in front of these people and absolutely do that, you know, like just become this crazy object of whatever, you know, And it was like a thing. And I completely understand that now. I mean, before I go out, I think, why am I going to do this? Do you ever wonder what that was that made you that motivated you to you know?

It's necessity.

Really, I have a couple of shows come up, and I'm like Oh my god, Why did I do this right myself? Oh god, I could just be sitting here, you know, watching TV or doing something. Yes, but I don't want to sound too cliche, but you know, of course I love the old school, like Joan Rivers and everything else.

I think. For me, showbiz is literally I was meant to do it.

It's a calling. I was meant to do it. So that drives me. But you know, it's an insane business. Yeah, it's up and down. It's it's deprivation, it's excitement. It's just it is a crazy making profession.

It is very insane, It's true. And so many guests, you know, say to me, it's the only thing I'm good at, So I can't think about doing anything else. That's one motivation. I think. Maybe that's part of what you're saying, right, Like you tried it as a photographer and then suddenly somebody turned you on at a club and you were like, oh, excuse me, this is who I really am, And from there you can't look back as a young person. Did you perform, did you make shows? Did you tell jokes? Did you do any of that?

Well, you know, it's funny because as a time boy, you play sports, right, and back then you couldn't do sports and like say, drama at the same time.

I always did sports, sports, sports. And I got.

Injured one year and I tried out for the drama group, and you know, I didn't know what the hell was and that of course the drama teacher was full.

On gay gay guy. Yeah, yeah, show biz and you're.

In there totally natural and improved and everybody was laughing and all of stuff.

So I made the team and I ended up in.

I would say maybe sophomore year in high school, I hosted some I am seed something called the Battle of the Bands.

Wow.

And then I do remember.

The rush you most reformers say this, but you know, the rush of the applause, you know, and acceptance.

It was like a positive energy that I hadn't felt before.

God, well, to get into this, you know, I'm getting a little choked up. I swear to God. Was there a big break for you? Like, do you remember when you became this kind of icon?

Well, I have a show that I do it. Joe's called about.

To Break Nice and You'll never break right.

Yeah, My big.

Break is around the corner I've been walking in circles for twenty.

Years, right example, bub But was there a moment where somebody discovered you and put you on? I mean, how did you get to Joe's Pub? Because Joe's Pub is a great gig.

Well, you know, I think for me, I've been a grinder, right, I just grinded it out.

I haven't stopped.

I don't have like a big break story because I've had so many close breaks hairline fractures as we like to say, right, Because so I started off Dewey shows at the Spy Bar and soho, then Life and then really deep down way underground stuff, and then you know, I did some nice at Limelight, and then you know, then Flamingo East and then because basically every club that I've worked and closed. And then I went down to the Slipper Room with my friend Penny's Tuesday.

This is way, way, way long time.

Slipper Room was a great place. Yeah. And then I think I saw Keky and Herb there for the first time in the Slipper Room. Yeah.

Yeah. And then I went to Fez and then.

They went and I said, Jackie.

Meet went to Fez, and then Joan Rivers went to Fez.

So we all did FEZ and it was like very underground and it was just a very vibrant time, so it was.

More like little steps.

And then when fes closed, where else are you going to do a show? And Joe's Pub at that point was very restrictive of being able to get in there, so I had to do like an.

Audition, shout, wow, this is the nineties.

I think, I don't even know two thousand, that might have been like twenty five thirty years ago. Then I did Mo Pickens, and then I did that, and then you know, so the more shows that I did more popular, you know, I was getting with the fans. Then the press would catch on, right, so it was like so I was getting more press and more mainstream, and then like you know, oh meetings, and I got a New York Times profile.

Okay, let's have some meetings. Let's have And that's when this started. Isaac. We love you right.

Your original We don't know what to do with you. You're too niche, we have no frame of reference for you.

You're too bla blah.

I've heard that forever, and my way to deal with that was just keep making my own shows, keep going out there, because the people always got it straight people.

Yes, right, it's just the gatekeepers, right.

And so like breaks or no breaks, you continue to support yourself by doing this, right, like you don't have another job. You just do this because you know, I've known Lipsynca for a hundred years and she was born since she was born exactly, and she was the rehearsal pianist at ABT. I don't know if she still does that, Like she still might do that, like she used to go to ballet class every day and fucking play the piano for ballerinas and then run to Paris to do you know, Terry Mugler's show. But so you you support yourself only by performing as Murray Hill, Okay, And do you think of the future, Like what's going to happen? Are you going to just keep doing this and doing this and doing this or what?

Well? Oh, I forgot I forgot the bit.

I've been to New York, New York, New York, New York, Lowery's side, Loweri's side, Looriast side, and then Dita Vontice's manager.

This is way back, the gorgeous stripper Dina Dvante who is absolutely heaven.

But her manager saw me in a club in Soho at one of my own shows and was like, holy shit, and did this whole La vibe. You know you're gonna hear from me. I live in La blah blah. I was like, yeah, whatever, getting on, we'll hold our breath feet Oh yeah, and she, you know, whipped her hair like that.

It slapped me in the face. I was like, oh la.

People anyway, they've contacted me like a year later and they were like, we want to come try you out with Dita in a show in Seattle.

Will you come out for the weekend.

I was like sure, and so check this out. So Dita back then was trying to find a host. But a lot of the male comedians are assholes. Yes they are, and it's all like, oh up next to cent. You know, it's like they didn't you know. It's a subtlety that you know it's there. It's different a little bit now, but it's very misogynistic.

So it wasn't working.

So when I get there, you know, I have the old school MC vibe, the old Vegas cat skills vibe totally, but I'm not an asshole and I'm a feminist.

Not a misogynist.

It just.

So I toured with her, we developed her show, which she ended up touring forever. But I worked with her for ten years.

Wow, all over the country.

Many times, and then Australia and you know, all the place. And then from that, I got a gig to go to the opera house, So I did that for a couple of right, So then I started getting a larger you know, audience.

Was there a failure in your life as a performer that you learn something from or that either just set you back and that you recovered from, or maybe you learn something and it sets you on a better trajectory.

Well, I mean, Isaac, you know, I got a joke a little bit. My entire career has been.

A set back, right right, right, right, No.

Yeah, it's true.

It's and you know I have my theories about it, right, you know, as much success as I've had and press and opportunities and stuff like that, it has taken so long and I have failed in terms of the gatekeeper's eyes and in every step of the way, right, And that's trying to get a TV show. So when I started, I was like my whole thesis, so to speak, was like I want to raise the visibility of people like me and be equal and and that point it was with drag queens because that was the only context, right, and it's still apples and oranges.

You can't even compare it.

So, you know, if you look at it like that way, if you think of like ru Paul, right, ru Paul also blinded, grinded to this massive international mainstream acceptance and economy took her forever. I think she's probably ten fifteen years older than me. So but if you think about Dragon, I think so.

Actually I think she's a little old. I think she's my age.

But go on, well you just look like a little baby boy. So you know, as far as drag queens and being accepted in mainstream, I'm not gonna mention any days. But I just pitched, finally an idea of a drag king competition show, and some of the my producing partner's agents were like, nobody wants to see that.

What are you even talking about? So here we are. But this is what I'm saying. Here we are twenty twenty three, and it's time.

It's time, Yes, it is, it is.

So my point is it's still not equal, right.

So the setbacks are you know, I'm in my fifties, I've been trying to get on TV. I've been in every meeting, every network, every you know, TV studio, you can imagine. But it wasn't until Bridget Everett. It wasn't until Bridget Everett.

Was on her third failed.

Right right, the fourth one she did with Carolyn Strass, and we got they got authorized to do a pilot with HBO and they made a character based on me, and I was the only character that didn't have to audition for it. So here's the boom, here's the here's the break, because if I did have to audition for a role that was based on me, I wouldn't have gotten it.

Right. The show which shall remain nameless because of a strike, So Bridget gave.

Me an opportunity to be on an HBO show and we shot the whole season and it's actually a very niche show. It's a small show as far favorite show, and you know, it's it's crazy how it works because I think people, you know, not my fans obviously, but people saw that the character Fred or Murray is not this threatening, scary, you know, offensive trans person. I got to be like everybody else. So that has opened some doors, like, so, then you know, I did another season of that, and you know, started getting more press and started, you know, people viewing me in a different way, not as a nightlife guy, now as this And then I got dragged me to dinner.

On Hulu which.

Union, yeah, exactly, and.

You know, so and then like, oh my god, so it's like, so that show got me on Tamar and Hall right.

Family feud, I got on the Today Show with Hoda.

So this is all in June, yourself fucking mainstream God, I hate you. I hate you because, by the way, that's part of it, right, Like maybe we were standing in our own way because you remember, in the old days, Darling, nobody wanted to do any of that stuff. It was like the oh, now that's such a bore. You don't want to sell out. It was known as selling out.

You know, I've always wanted to do it.

Paper magazine was about as high as you can go. Me too, Darling, me too, And obviously obviously I've always wanted to do it. But Darling, in this whole thing, is there anything you regret.

Well, I'll get a little personal with the Isaac.

Please, I regret that I struggle with I wasted a lot of time drinking. I do regret that I did a lot of stupid shit and I harmed myself by drinking so much. And you know, I was much younger, obviously, but I feel like, you know, I had to go through it to get to where it so, you know, it's part of the steps. But yeah, I do have regretted I kind of wasted.

You know.

Some people say it's not wasted time, but no, you know, just a lot of time, you know, drinking and then waking up feeling like shit and then make a dumb choice. It's just, you know, I dug myself so deep in a hole that I literally had to have a psychotic break.

To wake up and then wow, and that.

Took another fucking three or four years to climb out of that, and I still feel like I'm climbing out right.

You are you? So? Are you sober? Now?

You're so except I do gummies?

Okay, listen, darling, you gotta do something right? Are you at all religious? No? Me either? You didn't.

Actually, you know, this is strange. This it's not religion.

But maybe it's all tied up and everything into my love for showbiz, right because show biz and especially female singers. You know, they were like avenues for me to feel and.

I honestly need stry Sand like Whitney.

Houstonland is spiritual for me. They're not just talented, they're not just great personalities. There's something spiritual inside of them that is so innate and inherent in their.

Humanity, channeling something.

Yes, and I feel that me too.

And I'm how can an energy person like when I'm grooving with an audience and it's all it's just you know, I don't know.

I'm sure you can feel this.

It's like a feeling, are you kidding?

One time I was in I was very concerned.

This is probably ten eight years ago, so it's not today's times, but I was very concerned about playing a Dallas.

We have some kind of crazy connection because I have a story for you about Houston now, go go on.

So I was in the Detavantis tour, and you know my kind of m seeing is I'm very you know, I read the room. I play with the audience, I'm like right there with them, but I also create the tone where we're all going to be accepted and I'm not going to tolerate any bullshit, you know, that kind of thing. It was such a beautiful transference of energy. But I was so concerned about it, and I was so moved by it that later in the show, I actually said on the microphone, I said, you know, I was really freaked out by being here because of you know, the reputation for gay and this and that. Like they started to go right because they didn't know where I was going.

With this, and it was just like I was never more alive, like my like and I just said and I just was like, and you all of you have changed my mind.

I am sorry I judged you and I had mean it.

You have shown me and everyone hear.

So much love and it's so aspiring and it's like that kind of energy is my religion, and so be all.

I mean, you know what, I have such a similar story for you about Texas, because you know, I booked a little residence at fifty four below and then it was a little run of shows about six shows, and right before I got COVID, so I went down but it was really bad, and then like the day of the first rehearsal, I recovered, you know, so I got to my rehearsal and then I made it through those shows. But I didn't get that incredible you know, the exhilaration that you get from it. Was just hard work. And I don't think the audiences felt it. I felt like they really loved it and they screamed and they gave me like standing up sue. It was great all the shows, but you know, because you're good at it. So but inside I did not get the if you were Jewish, you'd say the word nakas. I did not get the nahas from the shows. You know, after the show, you feel like you can fucking kill the world. You just feel so great, and during the shows that never happened. And so like I went on this real bender, like I was, uh, oh am, I doing the right thing. I'm sacrificing everything. I'm going out there now. I have more plans to do this. Oh shit, And so like the next gig. I hadn't played on stage till recently. This past weekend, I got to Houston, I was doing the show, and I was like, please please, And it was such a rush, you know, and I watched the audience sometimes right and you know, I have a joke and a joke and then a big joke and right and I got through the first two and then I made the joke, and I saw this guy in the twelfth throw. He literally liked his whole body was like ah, and his whole body, you know, like reacted to me. And I thought I was a little scared about going to Houston and telling a Ted Cruz joke and telling a Donald Trump whatever it was, you know. But they loved it. And there was one or two booze you know, right, you say Greg Abbott, they go boot, you know, And but the rest of them loved it. And I prejudged and I freaked out. And yet the reaction of this audience it filled me to such an extent that I was back on my lust for show business. Maybe that's our joint memoir that we should write together, Lust for show Business.

The lust for Showbush, How to clear a room?

Do you ever feel jealous like I do that person, because you don't come across as that kind of a person.

No, I'm not a jealous person.

I think, you know, sometimes after all these years, you know, it does weigh on me a little bit that it's taken me so long, you.

Know what I mean. I am in my fifties.

I am not you know, twenty years old getting the comedy special off of my Instagram page because you know, I'm gonna sound like an old person, but.

You know, you and I we put in our time, yes we did, and it's a different time now. So sometimes I'm.

Like, I know, the Instagram thing, it freaks me out just a little bit. But what do you think about that? What do you think about social media?

You know it it's complicated because I definitely think it's a time sucker and it fucks with your head for sure. But the other thing is, you know, before that gummy hits and I have that twenty minutes of downtime, you know, I can literally connect with fans and friends everywhere all over the world. The greatest thing for me to keep going. And I'm gonna sound like Liza Minell.

Here, That's okay. Li's genius. She's another person who channels, right, I mean glutely channels.

And you know this interview that Liza did, I can't remember who it was with, but you know they were like, you know, what did you learn from all the famous directors that you've worked with and your father and your mother and.

Oh you know god, And she was like, no, no, Darling. I learned everything I need to know about showbiz from the audience.

Well, you know, it's like it's like that is you know, it's the audience that has kept me going. So when I get a message from somebody that's watched the TV show where I played Fred, and it's from a parent and they say, oh my god, I watched the show with my tran son and we want to thank you, you know, for being such a positive role model and not being this like, you know, fucked up character that's like getting beat up or things like that.

You know, yeah, yes, you know.

So it's like I get things like that and it's like that's like keeps the pilot light on.

I know. It's funny me too, you know, Like I have people who go like, by the way, I kind of knew somewhere I was gay and then I saw on Zipped and I was like, I'm gay. I'm moving to New York City. That makes me feel really really great. I remember like I was standing in front of my apartment talking to some friend of mine and some woman came up and she said, you have to talk to my mother, and I was like, do I really? You know, I was very nice you have to be nice, nice, nice. But then this woman said to me, you know, and I had cancer. I feel like you helped me because I watched your talk show every day on Oxygen every day, like I wouldn't miss your show, and it really helped me get through. And I thought, Okay, I'm gonna die now because I can. You know, And yet, Darling, yet, like all that is very nice, but there is something even better than that, which is called this show business thing, this connection with an audience. Right, like, all that's beautiful. You're such a role model. I'm such a fucking role model. Hooray for us. And yet if we do a shitty show, we go home and we want to like shoot ourselves, you know, and when we do a great show, we get a very big thrill from that, even more than being a role model who helps a trans am I right or wrong? Am I crazy?

I mean last week I was in a very fancy you know, one percent, and you know I bombed. So you know, here I am like you know, you know, pitch a TV shows, getting booked, deals, getting recognized, getting all there, you know, doing big shows, show binz, show biz, and then you know, instantaneous you get on stage and it's fucking crickets and everybody's looking at you.

They're like, you're a fucking monster. You know.

I used to take it more personally and be super devastated after things like that, you know, after your thirtieth twenty fifth year.

It's less, but I actually felt awful.

Oh no, I'm so sorry, Like.

I want to take a shower kind of you know, use the silk wood scenes. Yes, you know it's it's but I can still feel like that, you know. So that's the thing that the show is that it's challenging.

Yeah, you know, needless to say darling, so needless to say the words imposter syndrome resident Like I can imagine you have that every other day. Is there something that you do to like deal with that besides gummies? I mean, like, what do you tell yourself? Are you good at this? Are you better at it now?

I'm a little better at it now. It's definitely an area of vulnerability, you know. I literally just keep going and I try to keep going despite the voices, right because you know they say in some of the rehabs and stuff, you know, feelings aren't facts, right, So I guy, and you mentioned this before, like you you can get a standing ovation and people are going crazy for you, and then I'm like, I sucked tonight, and then I like go down the rabbit hole.

You know.

So I think this is very bizarre reference.

But Derek Jeter, Okay, I'm a New Yorker, and he always would say this interviews after they would get a drudging and just get killed.

Really the second after the game.

He said he would give it a beat and then he would turn it off and start prepping for tomorrow's game because tomorrow game has nothing to do.

It's a new day, it's.

A new game. Hill. I think that that is a great moment on this podcast, Darling. I mean it. I'm getting goost flesh. I swear to God. All right, last question, you're a bit. Can you tell me what the headline says and what the article is about?

Uh, my own bit.

Mister showbiz dies on stage. They had to drag them.

To the car.

Oh that's great. I love that. Could that be my standing ovation? That is amazing? Wow, that is beautiful. What do you want to promote on our podcast?

Well, have the kids send me a message on Instagram because I always write back when they're fun.

But tell them Isaac sent them.

Okay, I love that I.

Got a book deal, which I'm very excited about. I have to finish that in a year, you know, something like that. And you know, got a Christmas show, a beautiful thing.

Now, I know, we gotta finish. I gotta tell you something real quick.

I want you to know that you have had a huge impact on me and my career.

Since I was young.

Come on, because you have to remember you talked about Unzipped and your show. These are times where you know, Andy Cohn wasn't on TV, right, Yes, nobody was on TV that was gay and out and not like hiding. You know, there's Paul Land and then you came.

Around, right. I think you're right. I think there was no nothing in between, nothing in between. It was Paul and Isaac's rocky.

So you know, when the kids talk about and when I say kids, anyone younger than us, you know, talk about representation, you and your work and with your fashion work, with being out with outspoken, it's a TV show, you have also impacted me.

So I just wanted to get that in there.

Well, thank you for saying that. You're a darling. You're amazing, and I can't wait show biz Darling, jazz ads, jazz ads, jazz.

Ads kids, look up jazz hands on Google.

Ah. I've always been so inspired by Murray Hill, the person, and you know, the performer on TV, the performer that I would see in a club or you know, just seeing him at parties a long time ago. What occurred to me while he was talking was that he is a complete construction of his imagination. And it occurred to me that, like any one of us, is completely free to go and sort of become whoever the hell we want to be. And I feel like there is no one who exemplifies that better than Murray Hill. Right Like I don't know who he was before, I don't know who he will be when he decides not to be Murray Hill any longer. But what that is that we're kind of relating to is something that came out of his imagination, and I think that is just so so inspiring. Darlings. If you enjoyed this episode, do me a favor and tell someone, Tell a friend, tell your mother, tell your cousin, tell everyone you know. Okay, and be sure to rate the show. I love rating stuff. Go on and rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts so more people can hear about it. It makes such a gigantic difference and like it takes a second, so go on and do it. And if you want more fun content videos and posts of all kinds, follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at Hello Isaac podcast And by the way, check me out on Instagram and TikTok at im Isaac Msrahi. This is Isaac, Missrahi, thank you, I love you, and I never thought I'd say this, but goodbye Isaac. Hello Isaac is produced by Imagine Audio Awfully Nice and I AM Entertainment for iHeartMedia. The series is hosted by Me Isaac Msrahi. Hello Isaac is produced by Robin Gelfenbein. The senior producers are Jesse Burton and John Assanti. It is executive produced by Ron Howard, Brian Grazer, Caarral Welker, and Nathan Kloke at Imagine Audio. Production management from Katie Hodges, Sound design and mixing by Cedric Wilson. Original music composed by Ben Waltzer. A special thanks to Neil Phelps and Sarah Katanak at I AM Entertainment.

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Hello Isaac with Isaac Mizrahi

Isaac Mizrahi is an expert -  at almost everything! He’s an iconic fashion designer, actor, singer,  
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