We'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast was produced, the Galliger people of the Orination. We pay our respects to Elder's past and present. This episode contains discussions of domestic violence. If this raises any issues for you, support is available through the links and phone numbers in the show notes.

We'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast was produced, the Galliger people of the Orination. We pay our respects to Elder's past and present. This episode contains discussions of domestic violence. If this raises any issues for you, support is available through the links and phone numbers in the show notes.

Hi, and here.

Hi, and here.

I'm taking a short mid season break and we'll be back soon with even more great interviews for you. In the meantime, I thought I would take a moment to reflect on some of the moving conversations I've had with some incredible frontline workers. In this special episode, you're here from former police officer Alan Sparks, former firefighter Greg Mullins, and paramedic Sally Gold. My first guest is Alan Sparks, with a career spanning over twenty years. As an operational police officer, Alan was no stranger to high pressure situations for murders, to robberies to rescues. Alan had to confront intense and difficult cases on a daily basis, but this took a harsh toll.

I'm taking a short mid season break and we'll be back soon with even more great interviews for you. In the meantime, I thought I would take a moment to reflect on some of the moving conversations I've had with some incredible frontline workers. In this special episode, you're here from former police officer Alan Sparks, former firefighter Greg Mullins, and paramedic Sally Gold. My first guest is Alan Sparks, with a career spanning over twenty years. As an operational police officer, Alan was no stranger to high pressure situations for murders, to robberies to rescues. Alan had to confront intense and difficult cases on a daily basis, but this took a harsh toll.

Then we went back to the station. We're just having a cup of tea, and I remember we were standing in the mill room near the sink, and when the police issue like an urgent job, you get two distinct beeps over the radio and then it said any car in the vicinity of whatever street it was. Boy swept into a stormwater pipe. And normally that's a job that uniform would attend, not detectives. It's not a storm or a drain, which is a large thing you can actually walk into. This is a narrow pipe. So I remember Gave and I we just looked at each other and just threw our cups in the sink, raced downstairs, jumped in the car, took off up to this street and we got there and we'd have five absolutely torrential rainfall at Cops Harbor, so everything was flooded. And we got to the scene. There were two little boys. They were saturated, and there was a workman there, an adult male, and we said to the kids, what's happened. They said, oh, gives gives disappeared. I said, where's he disappeared? Mate, and they pointed to this whirlpool and I've gone, oh.

Then we went back to the station. We're just having a cup of tea, and I remember we were standing in the mill room near the sink, and when the police issue like an urgent job, you get two distinct beeps over the radio and then it said any car in the vicinity of whatever street it was. Boy swept into a stormwater pipe. And normally that's a job that uniform would attend, not detectives. It's not a storm or a drain, which is a large thing you can actually walk into. This is a narrow pipe. So I remember Gave and I we just looked at each other and just threw our cups in the sink, raced downstairs, jumped in the car, took off up to this street and we got there and we'd have five absolutely torrential rainfall at Cops Harbor, so everything was flooded. And we got to the scene. There were two little boys. They were saturated, and there was a workman there, an adult male, and we said to the kids, what's happened. They said, oh, gives gives disappeared. I said, where's he disappeared? Mate, and they pointed to this whirlpool and I've gone, oh.

Shit, were they playing in the whirlpool?

Shit, were they playing in the whirlpool?

Yeah, they've been playing on their boogiey boards in the flooded creek and the whole thing was flooded, and this whirlpool was massive, was just swirling around, and I thought, great, what are we going to do? And then the workman said, look, you can actually get access to look down the drain across the road.

Yeah, they've been playing on their boogiey boards in the flooded creek and the whole thing was flooded, and this whirlpool was massive, was just swirling around, and I thought, great, what are we going to do? And then the workman said, look, you can actually get access to look down the drain across the road.

So we ran across the.

So we ran across the.

Road and there's just two of you.

Road and there's just two of you.

Yeah, So we lifted up the concrete covers. We took our guns and handcuffs off through those in the car, jumped into the into the drain, and we looked down. We could see what we thought was a little boy's body down the pipe. And I think the workman he gave us a rope gave wanted to go down, and and I said to Gav, look I'll go down. I'll grab him. I'll give you three tugs and I've got him. Pulled me back. So I started to go down and I realized this rope is going to snap and then I'm down there. So I tugged on the rope gave pulled me back up to the surface. And I've only gone down a few meters and by that stage, the State Emergency Service are there, other cops are there, and I say this lot of thank God, the professionals here, they'll take over. And they just gave me a bigger rope and put me.

Yeah, So we lifted up the concrete covers. We took our guns and handcuffs off through those in the car, jumped into the into the drain, and we looked down. We could see what we thought was a little boy's body down the pipe. And I think the workman he gave us a rope gave wanted to go down, and and I said to Gav, look I'll go down. I'll grab him. I'll give you three tugs and I've got him. Pulled me back. So I started to go down and I realized this rope is going to snap and then I'm down there. So I tugged on the rope gave pulled me back up to the surface. And I've only gone down a few meters and by that stage, the State Emergency Service are there, other cops are there, and I say this lot of thank God, the professionals here, they'll take over. And they just gave me a bigger rope and put me.

Son.

Son.

I went, you committed anyway.

I went, you committed anyway.

And I still remember I'm not a small man. I think at that stage, I was probably punching one hundred plus kilos. I'm six foot two, and this water literally just carried me down.

And I still remember I'm not a small man. I think at that stage, I was probably punching one hundred plus kilos. I'm six foot two, and this water literally just carried me down.

Like a leaf. I was. I was weightless the power of this water.

Like a leaf. I was. I was weightless the power of this water.

So in fact then that to you, were you thinking, wow, yeah, I've done to this little boy.

So in fact then that to you, were you thinking, wow, yeah, I've done to this little boy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And our reasoning was if if we get him out, if he's dead, we'll we have a chance of reviving him. If he's alive, we've got to get him out before it rains again and he.

And our reasoning was if if we get him out, if he's dead, we'll we have a chance of reviving him. If he's alive, we've got to get him out before it rains again and he.

Gets washed away.

Gets washed away.

And what was going through your mind.

And what was going through your mind.

I'm a very positive person.

I'm a very positive person.

I thought, now he's alive, we'll get him out and we'll get him, get him, get him back home.

I thought, now he's alive, we'll get him out and we'll get him, get him, get him back home.

It'll be right. So the focus was get to him.

It'll be right. So the focus was get to him.

And I had a torch with me, like a maglight, I think, and there's been an estimate. I went down eighty meters down the pipe, and by the time we got to where we thought it was him, the light shot up was just like it was a branch that was giving these weird shadows. So what you thought was the boy, Yeah, this is not good. So I've tugged three times on the rope. Thank god, Gavin was in the drain. He could see what was going on, so as soon as I tugg him the rope, they stopped the free flow. So I've stopped and my bulk, I've actually damned myself in. So suddenly I am I'm engulfed in water and this water is so powerful. And my first thought was I hope the guy that tied a bowline tied a good bowline around my waist, because all I had was just a rope on my arms. So then they started to pull me back and I'm not in a good position here. I thought, I'm going to die here, I'm going to drown.

And I had a torch with me, like a maglight, I think, and there's been an estimate. I went down eighty meters down the pipe, and by the time we got to where we thought it was him, the light shot up was just like it was a branch that was giving these weird shadows. So what you thought was the boy, Yeah, this is not good. So I've tugged three times on the rope. Thank god, Gavin was in the drain. He could see what was going on, so as soon as I tugg him the rope, they stopped the free flow. So I've stopped and my bulk, I've actually damned myself in. So suddenly I am I'm engulfed in water and this water is so powerful. And my first thought was I hope the guy that tied a bowline tied a good bowline around my waist, because all I had was just a rope on my arms. So then they started to pull me back and I'm not in a good position here. I thought, I'm going to die here, I'm going to drown.

And so you've got this this this backwash just engulfing you.

And so you've got this this this backwash just engulfing you.

Yeah, I'm pretty well submerged under the water, being pulled backwards by all the all the se s guys that cops up on the surface point.

Yeah, I'm pretty well submerged under the water, being pulled backwards by all the all the se s guys that cops up on the surface point.

No proper equipment, just a rope around your boy.

No proper equipment, just a rope around your boy.

Yeah, So I remember sort of sometimes I'd like create a bit of an arch, make an air pocket, grab a quick breath, get under the water, and go back under the water again. And then we got back. I've got back to the surface, thankfully. And then we were just standing around, going we have to find ways into this drain. We've got to try and reap frog down the drain to try and find him. And then a call came over the radio to say they can hear a child screaming down the Pacific Highway. Mentally, I'll go on, that's a long way away. That's a seriously long way away. And it turns out from where we were it was about as the craveflis five hundred meters.

Yeah, So I remember sort of sometimes I'd like create a bit of an arch, make an air pocket, grab a quick breath, get under the water, and go back under the water again. And then we got back. I've got back to the surface, thankfully. And then we were just standing around, going we have to find ways into this drain. We've got to try and reap frog down the drain to try and find him. And then a call came over the radio to say they can hear a child screaming down the Pacific Highway. Mentally, I'll go on, that's a long way away. That's a seriously long way away. And it turns out from where we were it was about as the craveflis five hundred meters.

It's like a maze down there, right.

It's like a maze down there, right.

Yeah, there's this pipe. I mean, I know it went to a certain direction. But when we got down to the highway, the Pacific Highways all blocked off. There's people everywhere, and we jumped out of the car and got to hear the screams of a child.

Yeah, there's this pipe. I mean, I know it went to a certain direction. But when we got down to the highway, the Pacific Highways all blocked off. There's people everywhere, and we jumped out of the car and got to hear the screams of a child.

What's going through your head when you're hearing the screams?

What's going through your head when you're hearing the screams?

Confusion, absolute confusion. Like I thought the kid was dead. I thought we were looking for a body recovery. Yeah, there's no way this kid can be alive. I thought he's trapped against a great somewhere is dead. But then to hear the screams, No, he's actually alive. So my brain's going dead alive and he's alive. But Michael mar the paramedic. Michael was laying on his tummy with his head down into this manhole, and we ran over and the water was bubbling up on the manhole. But the screams are coming up through the water. I'm even more confused by this stage, so I called. I said, I want a scuba tank. I want to regulator because I had done some scuba diving. I said, there are the two things I want, And somebody produced a ladder and plunked it down the manhole, and there's actual TV footage of Gavin trying to squeeze his way down.

Confusion, absolute confusion. Like I thought the kid was dead. I thought we were looking for a body recovery. Yeah, there's no way this kid can be alive. I thought he's trapped against a great somewhere is dead. But then to hear the screams, No, he's actually alive. So my brain's going dead alive and he's alive. But Michael mar the paramedic. Michael was laying on his tummy with his head down into this manhole, and we ran over and the water was bubbling up on the manhole. But the screams are coming up through the water. I'm even more confused by this stage, so I called. I said, I want a scuba tank. I want to regulator because I had done some scuba diving. I said, there are the two things I want, And somebody produced a ladder and plunked it down the manhole, and there's actual TV footage of Gavin trying to squeeze his way down.

The camera cruiser.

The camera cruiser.

Yeahound up the emergency services. You've got everyone that's now over watching this.

Yeahound up the emergency services. You've got everyone that's now over watching this.

And at some stage, I don't know when, but I took my soup pants off and I'm there and boxes stah my ppees. Anyway, so Gav's we're all there. But there's these screams, and these these are terrifying screams. A child screaming for their life. It was terrifying. So they put another rope around me and don't want that. Gav went down straight down the ladder. He disappeared under the water. I followed him down and the water is not clear, sobu it's floodwater, it's filthy money. Gav disappeared. I went down. I'm under the water trying to film a way around, and we both came up in the junction of six of these pipes which were pouring in.

And at some stage, I don't know when, but I took my soup pants off and I'm there and boxes stah my ppees. Anyway, so Gav's we're all there. But there's these screams, and these these are terrifying screams. A child screaming for their life. It was terrifying. So they put another rope around me and don't want that. Gav went down straight down the ladder. He disappeared under the water. I followed him down and the water is not clear, sobu it's floodwater, it's filthy money. Gav disappeared. I went down. I'm under the water trying to film a way around, and we both came up in the junction of six of these pipes which were pouring in.

On top of head torch on is it down there?

On top of head torch on is it down there?

No, it's pitched black. We haven't got a torch, we've got nothing. And we weren't communicating. We just just knew what we thought we had to do, and that was to search to try and find which pipe is up?

No, it's pitched black. We haven't got a torch, we've got nothing. And we weren't communicating. We just just knew what we thought we had to do, and that was to search to try and find which pipe is up?

Followed the voice, right, yeah, yeah.

Followed the voice, right, yeah, yeah.

And we searched a couple of pipes each and then when I went up, I thought it's this one. I've got to take a punt. I think it's this one, because we were conscious if it rains again, we're all dead, because downpour, we're dead. We're not going to get out.

And we searched a couple of pipes each and then when I went up, I thought it's this one. I've got to take a punt. I think it's this one, because we were conscious if it rains again, we're all dead, because downpour, we're dead. We're not going to get out.

You're done.

You're done.

So I said to Gav, look, I think it's this one. Can you try and find it a way into this pipe? So I regret that decision in hindsight, but Gav should have been there with me to rejoice in the success we eventually had. Gab deserved to be there for that moment in life. And I've always regretted that I asked Gab to leave the drain system.

So I said to Gav, look, I think it's this one. Can you try and find it a way into this pipe? So I regret that decision in hindsight, but Gav should have been there with me to rejoice in the success we eventually had. Gab deserved to be there for that moment in life. And I've always regretted that I asked Gab to leave the drain system.

And why did you make that decision? What was going for you head? Was his safety or.

And why did you make that decision? What was going for you head? Was his safety or.

No is to try and get to this kid as quickly as we could. If I couldn't get to him, maybe up some other way. Unbeknownst to us, the council was bringing down a backo. They were going to dig up the highway to try and find this kid. That's how desperate it was. And so Gave went up, and then Michael Marlin, paramedic, came down and he gave me a torch, and I think he insisted I put a rope around my tummy. But this time I'm on my fingernails and toenails, crawling up this pipe to try and get to where I think the kid is.

No is to try and get to this kid as quickly as we could. If I couldn't get to him, maybe up some other way. Unbeknownst to us, the council was bringing down a backo. They were going to dig up the highway to try and find this kid. That's how desperate it was. And so Gave went up, and then Michael Marlin, paramedic, came down and he gave me a torch, and I think he insisted I put a rope around my tummy. But this time I'm on my fingernails and toenails, crawling up this pipe to try and get to where I think the kid is.

And again these screams are.

And again these screams are.

Just doing my head and I'm crawling up, literally crawling in amongst the concrete and the crap that's in a concrete pipe, and it's.

Just doing my head and I'm crawling up, literally crawling in amongst the concrete and the crap that's in a concrete pipe, and it's.

Shoulder with the part.

Shoulder with the part.

I was watching your show the other night where they did the exercise being in the water pipe. Yeah wow, okay, I know that's like yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so I'm crawling up the pipe. Michael mar is behind me, screaming at me. If you got him out, I've got him. Have you got him?

I was watching your show the other night where they did the exercise being in the water pipe. Yeah wow, okay, I know that's like yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so I'm crawling up the pipe. Michael mar is behind me, screaming at me. If you got him out, I've got him. Have you got him?

How long have you been down there?

How long have you been down there?

Ah?

Ah?

You're cold, your well.

You're cold, your well.

I'm freezing him miserable. We're freezing and ol. Hears this kid screaming. Michael's screaming. So I'm screaming at Michael, like, shut the f up. I'm trying to call the kid. It's okay, mate, I'm coming, I'm coming, I'm coming.

I'm freezing him miserable. We're freezing and ol. Hears this kid screaming. Michael's screaming. So I'm screaming at Michael, like, shut the f up. I'm trying to call the kid. It's okay, mate, I'm coming, I'm coming, I'm coming.

Could he hear your voice? Was he responding?

Could he hear your voice? Was he responding?

No, he was.

No, he was.

He was just he'd lost it. He was hysterical, he was, no doubt, hypothermic. He's been in there for forty five minutes, hanging on for dear life, because he's just hanging on to a log that's stammed across the pipe. If that log wasn't there, he was dead because he would have got washed down to a great there was no way that he would have survived. So he's been hanging on there in the pitch dark, with his water just houring onto his body, screaming and screaming for his life, and suddenly, no doubt he can see torchlight. But I don't know whether he understands what it is. And I really wasn't. I wasn't thinking about does he know? Does he know? I'm just trying to get to him. I'm absolutely desperate, and I started to pray, like, please, God, let me get to him, Please don't let him get washed away. And I kept crawling and crawling, crawling, and I can picture it to this absolute moment in time. My torch light finally picked up his face. That's all I can see was just his face and the illumination of the torch hitting his face. It was like I saw a ghost, and it is so vivid in my memory. And I coaxed him to come towards me because I thought I'm not going to get to him.

He was just he'd lost it. He was hysterical, he was, no doubt, hypothermic. He's been in there for forty five minutes, hanging on for dear life, because he's just hanging on to a log that's stammed across the pipe. If that log wasn't there, he was dead because he would have got washed down to a great there was no way that he would have survived. So he's been hanging on there in the pitch dark, with his water just houring onto his body, screaming and screaming for his life, and suddenly, no doubt he can see torchlight. But I don't know whether he understands what it is. And I really wasn't. I wasn't thinking about does he know? Does he know? I'm just trying to get to him. I'm absolutely desperate, and I started to pray, like, please, God, let me get to him, Please don't let him get washed away. And I kept crawling and crawling, crawling, and I can picture it to this absolute moment in time. My torch light finally picked up his face. That's all I can see was just his face and the illumination of the torch hitting his face. It was like I saw a ghost, and it is so vivid in my memory. And I coaxed him to come towards me because I thought I'm not going to get to him.

How far were you away from him when you swim? Oh?

How far were you away from him when you swim? Oh?

And probably ten meters and I was about thirty meters up the yeah, yeah, So I'd crawl thirty meters on my guts to get to him.

And probably ten meters and I was about thirty meters up the yeah, yeah, So I'd crawl thirty meters on my guts to get to him.

And then he did.

And then he did.

He got washed down to me and I've got hold of him. And I was like, you've got him, and out of the blue, I just said, say thank you God. And I'm not a religious person and I'm a very spiritual person, but I said, you say thank you God. And this little boy he just said thank you God. He started to bail his eyes out, and I did. I started to bore my eyes out.

He got washed down to me and I've got hold of him. And I was like, you've got him, and out of the blue, I just said, say thank you God. And I'm not a religious person and I'm a very spiritual person, but I said, you say thank you God. And this little boy he just said thank you God. He started to bail his eyes out, and I did. I started to bore my eyes out.

So you have this moment where you've got him in your arms, he's gripping news. He is he calming down or is he just still?

So you have this moment where you've got him in your arms, he's gripping news. He is he calming down or is he just still?

He had basically just collapsed with exhaustion, with emotion, with a sense of his I feel safe. Now this man's got me. I feel safe. And then I somehow pushed him under me and then he got washed down to Michael mar the paramedic. Michael's got him, assessed him there, Michael swam him under the water, got to where the manhole was. Michael climbed up the ladder then and the TV foot cameras rolling and they reached down and they pulled this little kid out out of the drain and he just comes up like a drowned rat. And they put him on the ambulance gurn He wraped him up an emergency blanket. His mom's there, she's been there through the whole thing. She was hearing her child screaming for their life. They wrap him up in the blanket. Her mum's just hugging him and hugging him. And I get out of the pipe. I go to the car and I'm sitting in the passenger seat of this car, and I was cold. I remember being really cold.

He had basically just collapsed with exhaustion, with emotion, with a sense of his I feel safe. Now this man's got me. I feel safe. And then I somehow pushed him under me and then he got washed down to Michael mar the paramedic. Michael's got him, assessed him there, Michael swam him under the water, got to where the manhole was. Michael climbed up the ladder then and the TV foot cameras rolling and they reached down and they pulled this little kid out out of the drain and he just comes up like a drowned rat. And they put him on the ambulance gurn He wraped him up an emergency blanket. His mom's there, she's been there through the whole thing. She was hearing her child screaming for their life. They wrap him up in the blanket. Her mum's just hugging him and hugging him. And I get out of the pipe. I go to the car and I'm sitting in the passenger seat of this car, and I was cold. I remember being really cold.

How long have you been down there for?

How long have you been down there for?

And I don't know how long.

And I don't know how long.

Had he been down there for.

Had he been down there for.

At least forty five minutes, at least forty five minutes. And halfway down the pipe, he saw some light and he reached up and he grabbed hold of a grate in the side of the road. Because his vision impaired, his glasses went flying as soon as he got sucked off the boogie board. Evidently, he tells me that he could see shapes and he just started to scream and screen for help, and then the water just washed him away another three hundred meters, So he's been washed six hundred meters down the pipe.

At least forty five minutes, at least forty five minutes. And halfway down the pipe, he saw some light and he reached up and he grabbed hold of a grate in the side of the road. Because his vision impaired, his glasses went flying as soon as he got sucked off the boogie board. Evidently, he tells me that he could see shapes and he just started to scream and screen for help, and then the water just washed him away another three hundred meters, So he's been washed six hundred meters down the pipe.

Wow.

Wow.

And then I'm in the car and just I mean, like I'm in shock. I remember going back to the police station.

And then I'm in the car and just I mean, like I'm in shock. I remember going back to the police station.

Dad.

Dad.

My wife, she was a cop there. She's in her office. She isn't doing she's in a chop protection unit. So she's in the in her office and they had for some reason, I had the radio turned down, so she didn't know anything was going on. And she saw the car pull up and she looked out. She saw Gavin get out in his pants and shirt saturated, holding his gun on handcuffs.

My wife, she was a cop there. She's in her office. She isn't doing she's in a chop protection unit. So she's in the in her office and they had for some reason, I had the radio turned down, so she didn't know anything was going on. And she saw the car pull up and she looked out. She saw Gavin get out in his pants and shirt saturated, holding his gun on handcuffs.

She's going, oh, it's strange.

She's going, oh, it's strange.

Then she saw me get out in my box of shorts, holding my gun on handcuffs, had a lot of blood in my back and other stuff. I've just gone, yeah, from a look like cutting myself on the concrete pipe because it was so narrow and trying to get it squeeze myself around. So I went into the crime scene and I've just jumped straight in the shower just to wash all this felt filthy and deb found me. I just just curled up in a ball on the bottom of the shower. A sist just sobbing my.

Then she saw me get out in my box of shorts, holding my gun on handcuffs, had a lot of blood in my back and other stuff. I've just gone, yeah, from a look like cutting myself on the concrete pipe because it was so narrow and trying to get it squeeze myself around. So I went into the crime scene and I've just jumped straight in the shower just to wash all this felt filthy and deb found me. I just just curled up in a ball on the bottom of the shower. A sist just sobbing my.

Heart straight after the incident, Yeah it's affected you straight away.

Heart straight after the incident, Yeah it's affected you straight away.

Yeah, I've had a serious, a serious how'd you say? Looking at it scientifically, I think I went from being a sympathetic, nervous state into a massive power, sympathetic. I'm safe, I'm warm, I'm okay, and my body has just shut down.

Yeah, I've had a serious, a serious how'd you say? Looking at it scientifically, I think I went from being a sympathetic, nervous state into a massive power, sympathetic. I'm safe, I'm warm, I'm okay, and my body has just shut down.

My next guest is Greg Mullins, who is widely known as a legend in the firefighting community. In our interview, he took me back to the Black Summer of twenty nineteen and shared the impact of that awful time.

My next guest is Greg Mullins, who is widely known as a legend in the firefighting community. In our interview, he took me back to the Black Summer of twenty nineteen and shared the impact of that awful time.

Every state and territory had major fires, so and that had never happened before. There used to be sequential they come from the north and we'd share fire fight across borders. All of a sudden we're in the fight of our lives and couldn't help each other. The aircraft we needed. California still had fires and they wouldn't let a lot of them go because a big aircraft we don't have any in Australia, or didn't have any in Australia. Then we had to lease them, and so they were saying, no, we've got our own problems, you can wait. So the fires got bigger and bigger. The weather it was the worst weather ever recorded, so for months and months and months. There's a whole lot of things that contributed to that, in the Antarctic and the tropics, and the unusual weather patterns, but we had drought, so we had strong westerly winds coming off the desert, off the interior the out back, hitting the coast, very low humidity, very high temperatures. I was fighting fires one day twenty first of December twenty nineteen, it just about reached fifty degrees in western Sydney. I did a twenty six hour shift and ended up in bed with the hydration, pretty sick, and you know, we saved dozens of hams that night, but it nearly didn't make it home. And so it was horrendous weather. And as a young firefighter, I remember thinking, oh, you know the old one hundred degrees fahrenheit, that's thirty eight degrees. That's about as hot as it would ever get. But then we were fighting fires regularly in forty five forty seven. It was just horrendous. And it took off in November again and I was actually in California at the Kincaid Fire in Sonoma County. So I went over with the Climate Council. The ABC Australian Broadcasting Commission tagged along and I went out to this fire and they did a little special and it went to where I think it was the seventh of November. Sorry, I'm a nerder, remember dates. It's a roundabout then and on the and me saying, well, look at this fire in California. Here's what's changing with climate change. They didn't get big fires like this than California this time of year, but now they do same in Australia and this build up, this is the worst I've ever seen. And I'm really frightened about what's going to happen. So the next day after they ran it across Australia, the fires went wild and lost dozens and dozens of homes, some lives, and you're.

Every state and territory had major fires, so and that had never happened before. There used to be sequential they come from the north and we'd share fire fight across borders. All of a sudden we're in the fight of our lives and couldn't help each other. The aircraft we needed. California still had fires and they wouldn't let a lot of them go because a big aircraft we don't have any in Australia, or didn't have any in Australia. Then we had to lease them, and so they were saying, no, we've got our own problems, you can wait. So the fires got bigger and bigger. The weather it was the worst weather ever recorded, so for months and months and months. There's a whole lot of things that contributed to that, in the Antarctic and the tropics, and the unusual weather patterns, but we had drought, so we had strong westerly winds coming off the desert, off the interior the out back, hitting the coast, very low humidity, very high temperatures. I was fighting fires one day twenty first of December twenty nineteen, it just about reached fifty degrees in western Sydney. I did a twenty six hour shift and ended up in bed with the hydration, pretty sick, and you know, we saved dozens of hams that night, but it nearly didn't make it home. And so it was horrendous weather. And as a young firefighter, I remember thinking, oh, you know the old one hundred degrees fahrenheit, that's thirty eight degrees. That's about as hot as it would ever get. But then we were fighting fires regularly in forty five forty seven. It was just horrendous. And it took off in November again and I was actually in California at the Kincaid Fire in Sonoma County. So I went over with the Climate Council. The ABC Australian Broadcasting Commission tagged along and I went out to this fire and they did a little special and it went to where I think it was the seventh of November. Sorry, I'm a nerder, remember dates. It's a roundabout then and on the and me saying, well, look at this fire in California. Here's what's changing with climate change. They didn't get big fires like this than California this time of year, but now they do same in Australia and this build up, this is the worst I've ever seen. And I'm really frightened about what's going to happen. So the next day after they ran it across Australia, the fires went wild and lost dozens and dozens of homes, some lives, and you're.

Back to back at this stage, you know, every man and his dog is out. Are you undermanned as a fire service? So all your these resources stretched?

Back to back at this stage, you know, every man and his dog is out. Are you undermanned as a fire service? So all your these resources stretched?

Is it?

Is it?

Well? It was just relentless and relentlessly and it was just you know, you're going from August and just.

Well? It was just relentless and relentlessly and it was just you know, you're going from August and just.

There was no rest months and months, and.

There was no rest months and months, and.

People who lived in the fire areas and I was really lucky. I thought, if Sydney gets hit, you know that's where the real property losses have traditionally happened, as on the outskirts of Sydney and the Blue Mountains near Sydney, but we were losing hundreds of homes in regional areas which had never happened before, and it just showed how big the fires were. But yeah, people were exhausted and you couldn't get the interstate assistance because they had their own fires. You didn't have enough aircraft, you know. I remember watching a drop on the south coast of New South Wales, thinking great, and then it was two hours before the next one because it had to fly back to Sydney and relaid and come back, and it was just there was no point, you know, And it was and the small aircraft couldn't fly because wind was too strong. So we'd get days of catastrophic fire weather, which was a new rating we'd brought in because of climate change because the weather was getting so bad. But most aircraft couldn't fly in those days because the wind was too gusty and strong, and there was a bad air crash a see one thirty hercules went in on one of these days.

People who lived in the fire areas and I was really lucky. I thought, if Sydney gets hit, you know that's where the real property losses have traditionally happened, as on the outskirts of Sydney and the Blue Mountains near Sydney, but we were losing hundreds of homes in regional areas which had never happened before, and it just showed how big the fires were. But yeah, people were exhausted and you couldn't get the interstate assistance because they had their own fires. You didn't have enough aircraft, you know. I remember watching a drop on the south coast of New South Wales, thinking great, and then it was two hours before the next one because it had to fly back to Sydney and relaid and come back, and it was just there was no point, you know, And it was and the small aircraft couldn't fly because wind was too strong. So we'd get days of catastrophic fire weather, which was a new rating we'd brought in because of climate change because the weather was getting so bad. But most aircraft couldn't fly in those days because the wind was too gusty and strong, and there was a bad air crash a see one thirty hercules went in on one of these days.

Yeah, I heard about that.

Yeah, I heard about that.

It was just, yeah, horrific. So look, it just got worse and worse and worse and culminated on New Year's Eve twenty nineteen, the South coast of New South Wales, which is hundreds of kilometers long, beautiful beaches. Tens of thousands of people go there for their Christmas holidays. It was evacuated and there were dozens of huge fires, and I remember being down there on Newyear's Day. We left Sydney about four am. Would have been hundreds of fire trucks heading down there, and we just couldn't do a thing because we had what we called a pyro convective storm above us, and that means the fire was so hot the convection column pushed into the stratosphere and brought gale storm force winds to the surface this incredibly dry air, and huge trees next to us were just getting snapped off like toothpicks and thrown around. And I didn't think it was coming home again, I thought, but you talked about the animals and this is I was back to my psychologist over this one because I couldn't talk about I can talk about it now without sort of tearing up, but it took a lot of work to get there. I remember being on a highway and there's factories burning and homes burning, and we didn't have any water and the power had gone and we couldn't get any water. I saw something over on the side of the highway through the smoke. What's that And I thought it was burnt hay bales, And then some of them started to move and went over closer, and it was a mob of kangaroos who had been caught in the forest and just caught fire and come out on the raid and just died on the raid. And I've never seen that, because kangaroos know how to get away from fires. And I just, yeah, i'd cry if I talked about it for months, and it just said everything to me. I just thought, my grandkids are going to grow up this. You know, millions of hectares have been sterilized for decades. Animals will come back, but nothing like when I was a kid. My parents took me camping and you'd see kangaroos and koalas and kidnaps and goannas and well, this beautiful wildlife it was wiped out.

It was just, yeah, horrific. So look, it just got worse and worse and worse and culminated on New Year's Eve twenty nineteen, the South coast of New South Wales, which is hundreds of kilometers long, beautiful beaches. Tens of thousands of people go there for their Christmas holidays. It was evacuated and there were dozens of huge fires, and I remember being down there on Newyear's Day. We left Sydney about four am. Would have been hundreds of fire trucks heading down there, and we just couldn't do a thing because we had what we called a pyro convective storm above us, and that means the fire was so hot the convection column pushed into the stratosphere and brought gale storm force winds to the surface this incredibly dry air, and huge trees next to us were just getting snapped off like toothpicks and thrown around. And I didn't think it was coming home again, I thought, but you talked about the animals and this is I was back to my psychologist over this one because I couldn't talk about I can talk about it now without sort of tearing up, but it took a lot of work to get there. I remember being on a highway and there's factories burning and homes burning, and we didn't have any water and the power had gone and we couldn't get any water. I saw something over on the side of the highway through the smoke. What's that And I thought it was burnt hay bales, And then some of them started to move and went over closer, and it was a mob of kangaroos who had been caught in the forest and just caught fire and come out on the raid and just died on the raid. And I've never seen that, because kangaroos know how to get away from fires. And I just, yeah, i'd cry if I talked about it for months, and it just said everything to me. I just thought, my grandkids are going to grow up this. You know, millions of hectares have been sterilized for decades. Animals will come back, but nothing like when I was a kid. My parents took me camping and you'd see kangaroos and koalas and kidnaps and goannas and well, this beautiful wildlife it was wiped out.

I had a sense of worthlessness when you just said, I was stood there. You're looking around, everything around you's on fire. You can't do your job because you've got no resources. And I can imagine me being in a in a war zone, you know, with no weapon. Just wow, that must be some Yeah, sort of had space to be in.

I had a sense of worthlessness when you just said, I was stood there. You're looking around, everything around you's on fire. You can't do your job because you've got no resources. And I can imagine me being in a in a war zone, you know, with no weapon. Just wow, that must be some Yeah, sort of had space to be in.

What was going for your head?

What was going for your head?

I'm not good, certainly not good. And look the mental health issues with firefighters since then, and thinking you're going to die is you know, as you know, it's not a good thing, and you do that too many times and plays with the head a bit. That's an understatement. But just not being able to help was so destroying. You know, I'm a five fighter, but I can't fight your fire. And sorry, I can't help you because I'm just dodging trees and I don't know if I'm getting out of here, you know, I don't know if I'm going home from this.

I'm not good, certainly not good. And look the mental health issues with firefighters since then, and thinking you're going to die is you know, as you know, it's not a good thing, and you do that too many times and plays with the head a bit. That's an understatement. But just not being able to help was so destroying. You know, I'm a five fighter, but I can't fight your fire. And sorry, I can't help you because I'm just dodging trees and I don't know if I'm getting out of here, you know, I don't know if I'm going home from this.

So and it was just.

So and it was just.

It's just like having your legs cut off out from under you.

It's just like having your legs cut off out from under you.

You know.

You know.

It was just the whole reason for being and he couldn't do it, and it brought it home to me. And I've got to say I was so pissed off with the government that day, and a couple of days later the Prime Minister had a press conference and so I'm going to fix it all. I'm going to give them money for aircraft. I was pretty angry and I don't. I actually don't talk about that much because I think it serves no purpose. But the other thing was he went overseas on a holiday and didn't tell anyone. You know, if he told people, fine, but he kept it secret because he knew he should have been there providing leadership during a disaster, but he took off.

It was just the whole reason for being and he couldn't do it, and it brought it home to me. And I've got to say I was so pissed off with the government that day, and a couple of days later the Prime Minister had a press conference and so I'm going to fix it all. I'm going to give them money for aircraft. I was pretty angry and I don't. I actually don't talk about that much because I think it serves no purpose. But the other thing was he went overseas on a holiday and didn't tell anyone. You know, if he told people, fine, but he kept it secret because he knew he should have been there providing leadership during a disaster, but he took off.

And so all that also motion, there's anger, resentment, yeah you know, worth you don't feel like you can do your job. Well, you can't do your job negative emotions.

And so all that also motion, there's anger, resentment, yeah you know, worth you don't feel like you can do your job. Well, you can't do your job negative emotions.

Yeah you can't.

Yeah you can't.

But how did you deal with that? Well, you got to go home and crive. How did you deal with that?

But how did you deal with that? Well, you got to go home and crive. How did you deal with that?

Was was there a look at the moments that you sort of just broke down and was just.

Was was there a look at the moments that you sort of just broke down and was just.

Like, yeah, well yes, but look in my book, I talk about it. A day I was going out on the fire line again. It was that forty nine degree day, and but two days before I'd been fighting fires down to the south of Sydney and two young dads were killed when a tree fell on their truck. And that's my trigger, you know, the big one. And I went to a cafe before I was going on shift. I thought I'll have breakfast and I walked in I had the newspaper and I opened it up and there they are on the front cover, and.

Like, yeah, well yes, but look in my book, I talk about it. A day I was going out on the fire line again. It was that forty nine degree day, and but two days before I'd been fighting fires down to the south of Sydney and two young dads were killed when a tree fell on their truck. And that's my trigger, you know, the big one. And I went to a cafe before I was going on shift. I thought I'll have breakfast and I walked in I had the newspaper and I opened it up and there they are on the front cover, and.

I've the tears started.

I've the tears started.

I've I've had to pull myself together, people sort of looking at me because I'm in a uniform and back in the car, and I thought, okay, deep breaths, deep breaths, right, all the all the techniques right. So I go to the counter and autumn at breakfast, and then I just remember the barista came over to the girl and the on the cash register. And then the girl said it's fine, it's taken care of and I said what and she said, on a flow, he has paid for your breakfast. And she said, thank you so much for what you do.

I've I've had to pull myself together, people sort of looking at me because I'm in a uniform and back in the car, and I thought, okay, deep breaths, deep breaths, right, all the all the techniques right. So I go to the counter and autumn at breakfast, and then I just remember the barista came over to the girl and the on the cash register. And then the girl said it's fine, it's taken care of and I said what and she said, on a flow, he has paid for your breakfast. And she said, thank you so much for what you do.

And I just.

And I just.

And that I just thought of those two young dads and I just and I lost it and it was so embarrassing, but I just sat tears and't it. Yeah, so brought it back. But how nice people are and how good but these two young blakes, their families would never see them again.

And that I just thought of those two young dads and I just and I lost it and it was so embarrassing, but I just sat tears and't it. Yeah, so brought it back. But how nice people are and how good but these two young blakes, their families would never see them again.

And also the appreciation that that, yeah, I went of kindness amongst the chaos.

And also the appreciation that that, yeah, I went of kindness amongst the chaos.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have to let it out. And I learned that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have to let it out. And I learned that.

My final guest today is Sally gould Sally is a paramedic and experienced a lot very early on in her career. She shared that in her interview with myself.

My final guest today is Sally gould Sally is a paramedic and experienced a lot very early on in her career. She shared that in her interview with myself.

Yeah, there have been a few times when the scene's not as been as secure as I'd like it, and often they come out of nowhere, and again, you think you're prepared, you think you've done your scanning and you're checking your egress points, and then something unexpected will happen and you just feel like the rug's being pulled out from under you and you've put yourself in a really dangerous position. I was working with a partner and we attended this young female who had her mother on scene. And as we entered the property, it just looked fairly benign, a tidy ordered house. The people greeted us respectfully. She was holding her face as if she'd had some sort of injury underneath it, and I started introduce seeing myself and my partner and speaking to the patient, and the mother just looked a bit unsettled and uneasy, and her eyes sort of started diving across the room, and obviously I started tingling, you know, feeling uncomfortable. Something's going on here, And the next words out of my mouth were going to be you know, is anyone else home? But before I could say that, a door opened across the other side of the room, and a young male who looked completely furious, stormed out and then pinned his mother up against the wall by the throat. And I remember just freezing in that instance and just thinking, this is not what I'm here for, This is not what I'm paid for, this is not in my job. This violent man I don't know. I don't know anything about him. I don't know anything about these people, and now I'm in their house watching this unfold. Thankfully, he wasn't targeting us, and we made it out safely and okay, and managed to treat the people and they were also okay in the end. But that feeling of being completely blindsided, out of control, unsafe, and then for me, when I reflected, it was also the concern that, you know, what would I have done? Would I have been able to defend myself, would I have was I aware enough of my exits? All those types of things, And yeah, I think that was a wake up call. Just you know, the next few weeks months, I was you know, had my eyes everywhere. I was asking people who's home. You know, all these types of things, because it just all these little jobs that don't go the way you planned, a little reminders that you carry with you probably for the rest of your career.

Yeah, there have been a few times when the scene's not as been as secure as I'd like it, and often they come out of nowhere, and again, you think you're prepared, you think you've done your scanning and you're checking your egress points, and then something unexpected will happen and you just feel like the rug's being pulled out from under you and you've put yourself in a really dangerous position. I was working with a partner and we attended this young female who had her mother on scene. And as we entered the property, it just looked fairly benign, a tidy ordered house. The people greeted us respectfully. She was holding her face as if she'd had some sort of injury underneath it, and I started introduce seeing myself and my partner and speaking to the patient, and the mother just looked a bit unsettled and uneasy, and her eyes sort of started diving across the room, and obviously I started tingling, you know, feeling uncomfortable. Something's going on here, And the next words out of my mouth were going to be you know, is anyone else home? But before I could say that, a door opened across the other side of the room, and a young male who looked completely furious, stormed out and then pinned his mother up against the wall by the throat. And I remember just freezing in that instance and just thinking, this is not what I'm here for, This is not what I'm paid for, this is not in my job. This violent man I don't know. I don't know anything about him. I don't know anything about these people, and now I'm in their house watching this unfold. Thankfully, he wasn't targeting us, and we made it out safely and okay, and managed to treat the people and they were also okay in the end. But that feeling of being completely blindsided, out of control, unsafe, and then for me, when I reflected, it was also the concern that, you know, what would I have done? Would I have been able to defend myself, would I have was I aware enough of my exits? All those types of things, And yeah, I think that was a wake up call. Just you know, the next few weeks months, I was you know, had my eyes everywhere. I was asking people who's home. You know, all these types of things, because it just all these little jobs that don't go the way you planned, a little reminders that you carry with you probably for the rest of your career.

And does it change your your approach, that change how you operate and how you function.

And does it change your your approach, that change how you operate and how you function.

Yeah, I think it. It ups your vigilance for every job from then on, you know. And that's the beauty of the way we learn as paramedics in sharing our stories. You know, you go back to the station, you tell your mates this happened to us, so that they can also carry that with them and keep themselves even safer on the next job.

Yeah, I think it. It ups your vigilance for every job from then on, you know. And that's the beauty of the way we learn as paramedics in sharing our stories. You know, you go back to the station, you tell your mates this happened to us, so that they can also carry that with them and keep themselves even safer on the next job.

Yeah, I suppose as well.

Yeah, I suppose as well.

Looking just hearing that story, you're entering people private spaces, aren't you. You're intruding into people's personal space. It can feel like that, right.

Looking just hearing that story, you're entering people private spaces, aren't you. You're intruding into people's personal space. It can feel like that, right.

And we're also coming on a day that's high stress for them. It could be the worst day of their life. And everyone responds so differently to trauma and stress, and often for some people them feeling out of control and scared comes out as anger and violence. And you can't always predict who's going to act that way. But you know, parents with young children are a big one. You know, they panic, they feel out of control, and for some of them, the only coping mechanism they've got is to turn that into fear, you know, and anger, and we often cop the brunt of that, just trying to de escalate that and care for the child or whoever's injured and for the people that are there having an emotional response.

And we're also coming on a day that's high stress for them. It could be the worst day of their life. And everyone responds so differently to trauma and stress, and often for some people them feeling out of control and scared comes out as anger and violence. And you can't always predict who's going to act that way. But you know, parents with young children are a big one. You know, they panic, they feel out of control, and for some of them, the only coping mechanism they've got is to turn that into fear, you know, and anger, and we often cop the brunt of that, just trying to de escalate that and care for the child or whoever's injured and for the people that are there having an emotional response.

To hear more from these three amazing guests. You can listen to the full episodes now are linked the details in the show notes. I hope you enjoyed this special episode of head Game. If you did, please consider leaving me a review. I'm at Middleton, see you in the next episode.

To hear more from these three amazing guests. You can listen to the full episodes now are linked the details in the show notes. I hope you enjoyed this special episode of head Game. If you did, please consider leaving me a review. I'm at Middleton, see you in the next episode.