Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with Norman Swan, the former GP turned journalist and ABC broadcaster established a reputation during the pandemic as Australia's resident health expert. But he joins us now following the release of a new book on parenthood. He chats to the podcast about parenting do's and don'ts and what it's like covering health issues for the general public, and hosting this conversation about the life and work of this physician turned pundit is the editor of Good Weekend, Katrina Strickland.

Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with Norman Swan, the former GP turned journalist and ABC broadcaster established a reputation during the pandemic as Australia's resident health expert. But he joins us now following the release of a new book on parenthood. He chats to the podcast about parenting do's and don'ts and what it's like covering health issues for the general public, and hosting this conversation about the life and work of this physician turned pundit is the editor of Good Weekend, Katrina Strickland.

Welcome, Norman.

Welcome, Norman.

Thanks, Katrina.

Thanks, Katrina.

So you you've done two books before. You've been a pediatrician. And you.

So you you've done two books before. You've been a pediatrician. And you.

Well, just to correct you on that, I trained as a pediatrician. I never got my I never went far enough to get my Australian qualification. So I'm qualified in Britain, but not in Australia.

Well, just to correct you on that, I trained as a pediatrician. I never got my I never went far enough to get my Australian qualification. So I'm qualified in Britain, but not in Australia.

Not here. Okay, well, you're a trained pediatrician, and you've been a health reporter at the ABC since the early 1980s. In this new book that you've done. So you want to know what's good for your kids. You say it's one of the hardest tasks you've ever undertaken, and that's a lot of tasks you've undertaken that are quite hard. Why was this so hard?

Not here. Okay, well, you're a trained pediatrician, and you've been a health reporter at the ABC since the early 1980s. In this new book that you've done. So you want to know what's good for your kids. You say it's one of the hardest tasks you've ever undertaken, and that's a lot of tasks you've undertaken that are quite hard. Why was this so hard?

Well, first of all, it was. I came to it with some arrogance, thinking, well, you know, I trained in pediatrics. I sit on the board of a not for profit which deals with well-being and children and youth. So I kind of thought, and I've been reporting on it, I kind of know this stuff. Well, in fact, I didn't know this stuff and I really had to go back to basics in terms of the research and the important thing about the book. Well, for others to judge what's important, but from my point of view, it's this is about kids from 0 to 10. For parents and the real gap, there's plenty of books around on early childhood. I still think there are gaps in early childhood, but the gap that is yawning in the marketplace for parents information is the 5 to 10 year age group, and there's almost nothing out there and there's very little research. So coming back to your original question, what was hard about it was researching those middle years. There's oodles and oodles of research on the early years, but to find good research on these middle years is tough.

Well, first of all, it was. I came to it with some arrogance, thinking, well, you know, I trained in pediatrics. I sit on the board of a not for profit which deals with well-being and children and youth. So I kind of thought, and I've been reporting on it, I kind of know this stuff. Well, in fact, I didn't know this stuff and I really had to go back to basics in terms of the research and the important thing about the book. Well, for others to judge what's important, but from my point of view, it's this is about kids from 0 to 10. For parents and the real gap, there's plenty of books around on early childhood. I still think there are gaps in early childhood, but the gap that is yawning in the marketplace for parents information is the 5 to 10 year age group, and there's almost nothing out there and there's very little research. So coming back to your original question, what was hard about it was researching those middle years. There's oodles and oodles of research on the early years, but to find good research on these middle years is tough.

And why is that? Like what? What do you think is behind the fact that there's not a lot of research and and not a lot of books out there?

And why is that? Like what? What do you think is behind the fact that there's not a lot of research and and not a lot of books out there?

I think that a lot of the issues that dominate thinking are about early childhood and early development, language, intellectual development, emotional development, sleep, all those sorts of things. And of course, it's a tense time, particularly for new parents. And there's no question that early childhood, the first 2 or 3 years of life are incredibly important. So one reason is a very heavy focus on that. And therefore there's only so many researchers to go around. And they haven't focused on the middle years. And the belief out there, which I think pervades researchers as well, and teachers as well as parents, is that nothing much happens in those five years, and you don't need to worry too much until you get to adolescence. And they've been neglected. Now there's a growing realization of that over the last five, ten years and more and more research in this area and more and more organizations realizing that they've got to focus on these middle years because they're incredibly important. So I'm trying to span the lot from early childhood through to age ten.

I think that a lot of the issues that dominate thinking are about early childhood and early development, language, intellectual development, emotional development, sleep, all those sorts of things. And of course, it's a tense time, particularly for new parents. And there's no question that early childhood, the first 2 or 3 years of life are incredibly important. So one reason is a very heavy focus on that. And therefore there's only so many researchers to go around. And they haven't focused on the middle years. And the belief out there, which I think pervades researchers as well, and teachers as well as parents, is that nothing much happens in those five years, and you don't need to worry too much until you get to adolescence. And they've been neglected. Now there's a growing realization of that over the last five, ten years and more and more research in this area and more and more organizations realizing that they've got to focus on these middle years because they're incredibly important. So I'm trying to span the lot from early childhood through to age ten.

And one of the things that I was wondering if this was part of why it's been difficult is do we have a lot more false news around health now than we did? Perhaps when you did your two previous books in this kind of series, like is There a lot more, I guess, falsity that parents are believing that you need to dispel, or is that not really the case?

And one of the things that I was wondering if this was part of why it's been difficult is do we have a lot more false news around health now than we did? Perhaps when you did your two previous books in this kind of series, like is There a lot more, I guess, falsity that parents are believing that you need to dispel, or is that not really the case?

I think in general, in the health and development area, there's a lot of stuff out there that's hard to sift through and work out what's real, what's true, what's factual, what's not. And I think that's as true from our previous books, one of which was more general health, one of which was about how to slow down aging. And this one, it's true in all these areas, the difference with children and parenting is you're vulnerable. You know, you are just you just don't have confidence. And you are always worried about, are you doing the best possible job? And there's always somebody out there to blame you. Everything is your fault. Yeah, and you.

I think in general, in the health and development area, there's a lot of stuff out there that's hard to sift through and work out what's real, what's true, what's factual, what's not. And I think that's as true from our previous books, one of which was more general health, one of which was about how to slow down aging. And this one, it's true in all these areas, the difference with children and parenting is you're vulnerable. You know, you are just you just don't have confidence. And you are always worried about, are you doing the best possible job? And there's always somebody out there to blame you. Everything is your fault. Yeah, and you.

Hear about it.

Hear about it.

That's right. How do you avoid that? So I think that the emotional overlay is huge. And one of the things that and again, just coming back to the two previous books as well as this one, the common theme through all three is treating the reader as an adult. I'm not giving you advice. I'm not telling you what to do. So there are books out there that will tell you what to do. I'm giving you the evidence. Here's what the evidence says. I've done the hard work for you to find out. What does the evidence say? I've let experts in the areas of the book look at it, read it, give me critique, tell me where I've gone wrong, and so on so I can correct that. So I'm confident in the evidence and you make up your own mind. You know, it's your child. You're the parent. You make up your own mind. At least I'm giving you the information and I'm giving you the information in an easy to read, digestible format and make up your own mind.

That's right. How do you avoid that? So I think that the emotional overlay is huge. And one of the things that and again, just coming back to the two previous books as well as this one, the common theme through all three is treating the reader as an adult. I'm not giving you advice. I'm not telling you what to do. So there are books out there that will tell you what to do. I'm giving you the evidence. Here's what the evidence says. I've done the hard work for you to find out. What does the evidence say? I've let experts in the areas of the book look at it, read it, give me critique, tell me where I've gone wrong, and so on so I can correct that. So I'm confident in the evidence and you make up your own mind. You know, it's your child. You're the parent. You make up your own mind. At least I'm giving you the information and I'm giving you the information in an easy to read, digestible format and make up your own mind.

And you talk in the book about your own parents and, um, I guess what what you didn't like about your own parenting. Tell us a bit about your childhood and and what you learned from that.

And you talk in the book about your own parents and, um, I guess what what you didn't like about your own parenting. Tell us a bit about your childhood and and what you learned from that.

That was different. First of all, it's a different world. Um, and my, I can't I just don't have very many happy memories from my childhood. My mother was a very troubled force of nature and just not happy in herself. Not happy in the marriage. Um, those were the days where people stuck with their marriages. They didn't break up. They probably would have been better off had they done so. And there was just a lot of pressure and tension. And also, my mother probably had what today would be called borderline personality trait, where, um, you were never confident as a child in what her emotional state was or whether she would suddenly turn on you. Um, you would. Um. And that was true till the day she died. You were never confident in how she was approaching you and whether or not it would be consistent. And she could turn on a sixpence and suddenly attack you. Not physically, sometimes or physically, but not. I wasn't physically abused, but the. But just turn on a sixpence and attack you. And as a child, that's very unsettling. And you learn to distance yourself. Um, so psychologists would say that, um, I might have attachment problems, which I've worked on ever since.

That was different. First of all, it's a different world. Um, and my, I can't I just don't have very many happy memories from my childhood. My mother was a very troubled force of nature and just not happy in herself. Not happy in the marriage. Um, those were the days where people stuck with their marriages. They didn't break up. They probably would have been better off had they done so. And there was just a lot of pressure and tension. And also, my mother probably had what today would be called borderline personality trait, where, um, you were never confident as a child in what her emotional state was or whether she would suddenly turn on you. Um, you would. Um. And that was true till the day she died. You were never confident in how she was approaching you and whether or not it would be consistent. And she could turn on a sixpence and suddenly attack you. Not physically, sometimes or physically, but not. I wasn't physically abused, but the. But just turn on a sixpence and attack you. And as a child, that's very unsettling. And you learn to distance yourself. Um, so psychologists would say that, um, I might have attachment problems, which I've worked on ever since.

Yeah. But it's interesting. In the book, one of the areas which you talk about is warmth as, as a parenting style. And this is summarising. So tell me if I've got it wrong, but that need to self regulate emotions so that your kids have that kind of certainty. Does that come from that kind of first hand experience in part.

Yeah. But it's interesting. In the book, one of the areas which you talk about is warmth as, as a parenting style. And this is summarising. So tell me if I've got it wrong, but that need to self regulate emotions so that your kids have that kind of certainty. Does that come from that kind of first hand experience in part.

Well that the evidence is incontrovertible about the style of parenting that's best for your kids. So what kids need is consistency and predictability and routine. It's boring, but that's what they need. And in the style of parenting that works best. And by the way, one of the researchers that I tapped into for this book said, you know, unless the book, a book about parenting, has that child's name on the cover, take it with a pinch of salt because it's true. Every child is different. And so saying generalizing about parenting is quite hard. And what I talk a lot about in the book is how your child changes you, and you parent each child differently, but you can generalize to some extent, and it does go across cultures. So, you know, routine, consistency, predictability, warmth, which is that you love your child, but that what goes along with love is setting boundaries. So your child, and that's part of predictability and routine is you know what? Your child knows what your limits are, and you set those limits and you have expectations, which sounds very old fashioned, but expectations work. And in the in the education sector, it's increasingly recognized that a teacher's expectations of their students makes a difference to their performance. So there's a tendency for amongst parents to say, oh, I'm going to create anxiety in my child by setting these expectations. It's quite the opposite. I talk a lot in the book about the spectrum of parenting and what's healthy and not. So this is called authoritative, not authoritarian, but authoritative parenting. Warm, confident boundaries. Now, what there's been a tendency towards probably since time began, but particularly in recent history is what you would call it sounds pejorative, indulgent parenting. Is that love is unconditional. Darling. Anything goes. And I'm not going. You're going to become your own person. I'm not going to set expectations. You're going to achieve. You're going to achieve what I'm going to love, and I'm going to lavish love and attention on you in order to do that. That has poor outcomes. That indulgent parenting. So the two ends of the spectrum are neglectful parenting, harsh parenting, which has poor outcomes in terms of mental health, achievement in life, um, drug and alcohol use. And on the other end is indulgent parenting, where you don't set limits and boundaries and the child of indulgent parents becomes an entitled child who never starts, they never achieve, they don't finish things. And, um, and, and so you want to find that happy balance in the middle, which with some kids can be hard to do.

Well that the evidence is incontrovertible about the style of parenting that's best for your kids. So what kids need is consistency and predictability and routine. It's boring, but that's what they need. And in the style of parenting that works best. And by the way, one of the researchers that I tapped into for this book said, you know, unless the book, a book about parenting, has that child's name on the cover, take it with a pinch of salt because it's true. Every child is different. And so saying generalizing about parenting is quite hard. And what I talk a lot about in the book is how your child changes you, and you parent each child differently, but you can generalize to some extent, and it does go across cultures. So, you know, routine, consistency, predictability, warmth, which is that you love your child, but that what goes along with love is setting boundaries. So your child, and that's part of predictability and routine is you know what? Your child knows what your limits are, and you set those limits and you have expectations, which sounds very old fashioned, but expectations work. And in the in the education sector, it's increasingly recognized that a teacher's expectations of their students makes a difference to their performance. So there's a tendency for amongst parents to say, oh, I'm going to create anxiety in my child by setting these expectations. It's quite the opposite. I talk a lot in the book about the spectrum of parenting and what's healthy and not. So this is called authoritative, not authoritarian, but authoritative parenting. Warm, confident boundaries. Now, what there's been a tendency towards probably since time began, but particularly in recent history is what you would call it sounds pejorative, indulgent parenting. Is that love is unconditional. Darling. Anything goes. And I'm not going. You're going to become your own person. I'm not going to set expectations. You're going to achieve. You're going to achieve what I'm going to love, and I'm going to lavish love and attention on you in order to do that. That has poor outcomes. That indulgent parenting. So the two ends of the spectrum are neglectful parenting, harsh parenting, which has poor outcomes in terms of mental health, achievement in life, um, drug and alcohol use. And on the other end is indulgent parenting, where you don't set limits and boundaries and the child of indulgent parents becomes an entitled child who never starts, they never achieve, they don't finish things. And, um, and, and so you want to find that happy balance in the middle, which with some kids can be hard to do.

And do we have like too much indulgent parenting now? I mean, we always read stories about helicopter parenting and this kind of thing.

And do we have like too much indulgent parenting now? I mean, we always read stories about helicopter parenting and this kind of thing.

Helicopter parenting is different. That's a different thing. We'll come to that. It's important we come to that.

Helicopter parenting is different. That's a different thing. We'll come to that. It's important we come to that.

But but in general, are we kind of like in a slight epidemic of indulgent parenting at the moment or not really. Should we not.

But but in general, are we kind of like in a slight epidemic of indulgent parenting at the moment or not really. Should we not.

Worry? I don't think anybody knows the answer to that question. I suspect it peaked in the 70s with the kind of hippie. Yeah. Generation. I mean, I've just been on vacation and I went to the island of Hydra in Greece, which is where Leonard Cohen spent many years, and Charmian Clift was there. And you had a generation of children on that island who were almost like a test bed for indulgent parenting. And if you read the books of that time, these kids did not do well in life. So I'm not sure that we are in a world of indulgent parenting. I think most parents do a great job. Um, but you've just got to be careful at the margins.

Worry? I don't think anybody knows the answer to that question. I suspect it peaked in the 70s with the kind of hippie. Yeah. Generation. I mean, I've just been on vacation and I went to the island of Hydra in Greece, which is where Leonard Cohen spent many years, and Charmian Clift was there. And you had a generation of children on that island who were almost like a test bed for indulgent parenting. And if you read the books of that time, these kids did not do well in life. So I'm not sure that we are in a world of indulgent parenting. I think most parents do a great job. Um, but you've just got to be careful at the margins.

And then helicopter parenting. Tell us about that.

And then helicopter parenting. Tell us about that.

Well, another style of parenting. It overlaps with overprotective parenting. Mhm. So helicopter parenting kind of reaches its peak around about the age of ten, then into adolescence where the parent wants to get involved in their child's life. And it takes various forms. It wants to know everything the child's doing wants to be involved in it. Um, and in a sense wants to control it. Some kinds of some kind of helicopter parenting sounds bad from the outside, but maybe okay, but when it's overprotective, it's not associated with good outcomes. It's associated with a higher incidence of anxiety disorders, for example. And what happens here is and if you go back to early childhood is a child cries now. No parent likes to see their child crying. How do you respond to that crying? Well, it's different, obviously, when a child is in the first few months of life and they're hungry or they're tired, and there's fairly simple things going on. But as they become older, um, if your response and it's particularly bad in parents who haven't dealt with their own anxiety. Um, and also where you might have temperament involved with the child might be a little bit reactive to their circumstances where all you want to do is settle down the crying. So you want to solve the problem. So your attitude is, why are you crying? Okay, I fixed that. Let's move on. I'm oversimplifying here in this conversation, as opposed to parenting, which says. Which accepts that what one of the trajectories you want your child on is where they have appropriate autonomy, where they can make decisions for themselves appropriate to their age and development, Where they there. You're on a track to independence in adolescence, and you encourage them to problem solve. You don't solve their problems for them. You actually find a way to help them solve their problems. Now, that's not going to happen every time a child cries. But overprotective parenting tends to the parent for all the best intentions, wants to solve the problem of the child and solve it as quickly as possible so they stop crying. And that is a problem because the child doesn't learn autonomous behavior and problem solving as well as it could.

Well, another style of parenting. It overlaps with overprotective parenting. Mhm. So helicopter parenting kind of reaches its peak around about the age of ten, then into adolescence where the parent wants to get involved in their child's life. And it takes various forms. It wants to know everything the child's doing wants to be involved in it. Um, and in a sense wants to control it. Some kinds of some kind of helicopter parenting sounds bad from the outside, but maybe okay, but when it's overprotective, it's not associated with good outcomes. It's associated with a higher incidence of anxiety disorders, for example. And what happens here is and if you go back to early childhood is a child cries now. No parent likes to see their child crying. How do you respond to that crying? Well, it's different, obviously, when a child is in the first few months of life and they're hungry or they're tired, and there's fairly simple things going on. But as they become older, um, if your response and it's particularly bad in parents who haven't dealt with their own anxiety. Um, and also where you might have temperament involved with the child might be a little bit reactive to their circumstances where all you want to do is settle down the crying. So you want to solve the problem. So your attitude is, why are you crying? Okay, I fixed that. Let's move on. I'm oversimplifying here in this conversation, as opposed to parenting, which says. Which accepts that what one of the trajectories you want your child on is where they have appropriate autonomy, where they can make decisions for themselves appropriate to their age and development, Where they there. You're on a track to independence in adolescence, and you encourage them to problem solve. You don't solve their problems for them. You actually find a way to help them solve their problems. Now, that's not going to happen every time a child cries. But overprotective parenting tends to the parent for all the best intentions, wants to solve the problem of the child and solve it as quickly as possible so they stop crying. And that is a problem because the child doesn't learn autonomous behavior and problem solving as well as it could.

And one of the areas that I found interesting was around food. And you talk about, I guess, teaching kids self-regulation, which is kind of along similar lines, and also just some really useful advice like, you know, don't use junk food as a reward. Tell us some of the things around food, because we are at a time when we've got like on the one hand, obesity. Childhood obesity is growing and on the other hand, so is anorexia. Even under 10s really, isn't it? Absolutely. Eating disorders. So we've got this very weird relationship with food these days. What what's your advice to parents on on food.

And one of the areas that I found interesting was around food. And you talk about, I guess, teaching kids self-regulation, which is kind of along similar lines, and also just some really useful advice like, you know, don't use junk food as a reward. Tell us some of the things around food, because we are at a time when we've got like on the one hand, obesity. Childhood obesity is growing and on the other hand, so is anorexia. Even under 10s really, isn't it? Absolutely. Eating disorders. So we've got this very weird relationship with food these days. What what's your advice to parents on on food.

The first thing I say in the book is don't have food fights. Don't fight over food. Um, you know, you want your child to eat healthily. You've probably got to present a toddler with broccoli 20 times before they eat it, and even.

The first thing I say in the book is don't have food fights. Don't fight over food. Um, you know, you want your child to eat healthily. You've probably got to present a toddler with broccoli 20 times before they eat it, and even.

Then, they don't like it. Well, yeah, exactly.

Then, they don't like it. Well, yeah, exactly.

Well, they kind of learn to eat it and they'll taste it and so on. And so they'll throw it off the high chair. So you just shrug your shoulders and they throw it off. So you've got to be patient and persistent. And one of the problems that has occurred recently is that parents and it's not new is that with all this. So kids are picky eaters. Toddlers are picky, and the paradox that occurs is that they usually take solids really well up to 12 months. Then suddenly at 12 months, they start becoming picky eaters. Now, if you accede to that and only give them what they want.

Well, they kind of learn to eat it and they'll taste it and so on. And so they'll throw it off the high chair. So you just shrug your shoulders and they throw it off. So you've got to be patient and persistent. And one of the problems that has occurred recently is that parents and it's not new is that with all this. So kids are picky eaters. Toddlers are picky, and the paradox that occurs is that they usually take solids really well up to 12 months. Then suddenly at 12 months, they start becoming picky eaters. Now, if you accede to that and only give them what they want.

Vegemite, toast or something, you.

Vegemite, toast or something, you.

Can actually make the pickiness much worse and you end up with a very picky eater by age five, and that can actually become a disorder as well. Not wanting to panic people about this. So what you've got to do is if they're picky, shrug your shoulders, but keep on offering them the range of foods. Here's the thing about unhealthy food if you are overanxious about unhealthy food or you really want to stop them eating it, you can actually make the whole situation worse with unhealthy eating, with self-regulation where they don't learn regulation. So, for example, if you they eat the broccoli How are you? Promise them a treat if they eat the broccoli, which is a chocolate biscuit or whatever, then unhealthy food takes on a special role in these children's lives. Um, kids are going to eat unhealthy food from time to time. They're going to go to a party and they're going to go to McDonald's. You're going to be in the car and they're going to want to stop at McDonald's. Your child will not die of a heart attack if your 3 or 4 times a year you stop at McDonald's or KFC on your on a long drive. Um, fighting over unhealthy food gives it a special place. So what researchers are realizing is if you are overly restrictive about unhealthy food, you actually increase the consumption of unhealthy food and your children increase calorie consumption and decrease their self-regulation of food. Now, the worst problem is if you buy unhealthy food, it's sitting there on the shelf and your child knows it's there and they want it. Then that creates a situation where the fight is almost inevitable. But if you don't buy unhealthy food, you're not making a fuss about it, but it's not in the house, then you don't create unnecessary fights. Um, but if you're.

Can actually make the pickiness much worse and you end up with a very picky eater by age five, and that can actually become a disorder as well. Not wanting to panic people about this. So what you've got to do is if they're picky, shrug your shoulders, but keep on offering them the range of foods. Here's the thing about unhealthy food if you are overanxious about unhealthy food or you really want to stop them eating it, you can actually make the whole situation worse with unhealthy eating, with self-regulation where they don't learn regulation. So, for example, if you they eat the broccoli How are you? Promise them a treat if they eat the broccoli, which is a chocolate biscuit or whatever, then unhealthy food takes on a special role in these children's lives. Um, kids are going to eat unhealthy food from time to time. They're going to go to a party and they're going to go to McDonald's. You're going to be in the car and they're going to want to stop at McDonald's. Your child will not die of a heart attack if your 3 or 4 times a year you stop at McDonald's or KFC on your on a long drive. Um, fighting over unhealthy food gives it a special place. So what researchers are realizing is if you are overly restrictive about unhealthy food, you actually increase the consumption of unhealthy food and your children increase calorie consumption and decrease their self-regulation of food. Now, the worst problem is if you buy unhealthy food, it's sitting there on the shelf and your child knows it's there and they want it. Then that creates a situation where the fight is almost inevitable. But if you don't buy unhealthy food, you're not making a fuss about it, but it's not in the house, then you don't create unnecessary fights. Um, but if you're.

Not restricting the thing that they can see. Exactly. Yeah.

Not restricting the thing that they can see. Exactly. Yeah.

Um, you, um, you want to facilitate positive behavior of that and restriction and having fights. But if you're out and they want a treat, you know, they're wanting to go and have some unhealthy food, don't make a big deal of it. Stop at McDonald's, let them have it and and move on. And you'll find that you've got a child who actually is not obsessed with unhealthy food.

Um, you, um, you want to facilitate positive behavior of that and restriction and having fights. But if you're out and they want a treat, you know, they're wanting to go and have some unhealthy food, don't make a big deal of it. Stop at McDonald's, let them have it and and move on. And you'll find that you've got a child who actually is not obsessed with unhealthy food.

One of the things that I found surprising was the whole don't let your kids sip alcohol under ten. Like that. We even need to say that. Is that a thing? Is it that people that there's a certain view that you know, if they have little sips now and then between like five and ten. What? They'll be better with alcohol. Or there's a notion. What's the thinking that you're dispelling?

One of the things that I found surprising was the whole don't let your kids sip alcohol under ten. Like that. We even need to say that. Is that a thing? Is it that people that there's a certain view that you know, if they have little sips now and then between like five and ten. What? They'll be better with alcohol. Or there's a notion. What's the thinking that you're dispelling?

The notion is that I can train my child to be a sensible drinker.

The notion is that I can train my child to be a sensible drinker.

Under ten.

Under ten.

Well, under ten. It happens. But also it happens over ten in adolescence where you can they can sit at the table and you're modeling the behavior and you're not getting drunk. And if they sip a little bit, what the heck? The problem with it is that you've still got a child. Now, maybe, first of all, are you are you a sensible drinker? Um, we all have our own definition of what sensible drinking is. Um, secondly, you've got a child with a brain that's still evolving. And alcohol can change. Any drug can change the way the brain develops. So what happens in the first ten years of life? But it starts to change towards eight, nine, ten is in the first few years of life your brain overgrows. It just goes topsy with all that development. Then the process of adolescence which can happen, start happening much sooner than you think. Eight, nine, ten is a pruning exercise, literally like pruning the roses in your garden and your brain is pruned so that it gets moulded in getting ready for adulthood. And there's not all this unnecessary brain tissue around causing short circuits and whatever it might do now, the pruning can go wrong if you add drugs to the mix.

Well, under ten. It happens. But also it happens over ten in adolescence where you can they can sit at the table and you're modeling the behavior and you're not getting drunk. And if they sip a little bit, what the heck? The problem with it is that you've still got a child. Now, maybe, first of all, are you are you a sensible drinker? Um, we all have our own definition of what sensible drinking is. Um, secondly, you've got a child with a brain that's still evolving. And alcohol can change. Any drug can change the way the brain develops. So what happens in the first ten years of life? But it starts to change towards eight, nine, ten is in the first few years of life your brain overgrows. It just goes topsy with all that development. Then the process of adolescence which can happen, start happening much sooner than you think. Eight, nine, ten is a pruning exercise, literally like pruning the roses in your garden and your brain is pruned so that it gets moulded in getting ready for adulthood. And there's not all this unnecessary brain tissue around causing short circuits and whatever it might do now, the pruning can go wrong if you add drugs to the mix.

So what age? What age should you allow the odd sip?

So what age? What age should you allow the odd sip?

Um, every parent will find as late as possible is the answer to that. But certainly the evidence, particularly this is evidence gathered at Sydney University from some very large studies. Um, Professor Marie Thiessen has done this work. These are thousands of children. It's particularly sipping is particularly bad under the age of ten. Mhm. Um, and you've got children who are sipping, you know, Catholic kids are going to communion and maybe having some alcohol and so on. But the reality is how regularly are you doing it. And, and the circumstances in which they are. So the answer is you cannot train good alcohol consumption in children from the evidence. And the later your child starts drinking or using any drugs, the better.

Um, every parent will find as late as possible is the answer to that. But certainly the evidence, particularly this is evidence gathered at Sydney University from some very large studies. Um, Professor Marie Thiessen has done this work. These are thousands of children. It's particularly sipping is particularly bad under the age of ten. Mhm. Um, and you've got children who are sipping, you know, Catholic kids are going to communion and maybe having some alcohol and so on. But the reality is how regularly are you doing it. And, and the circumstances in which they are. So the answer is you cannot train good alcohol consumption in children from the evidence. And the later your child starts drinking or using any drugs, the better.

One of the other areas that I thought was really interesting was screens. You know, we all hear about how terrible screens are for kids, Particularly, I guess under 10s, just to summarize and then you can expand on it, I think you say basically no social media under ten and what your.

One of the other areas that I thought was really interesting was screens. You know, we all hear about how terrible screens are for kids, Particularly, I guess under 10s, just to summarize and then you can expand on it, I think you say basically no social media under ten and what your.

Social media under 13, under.

Social media under 13, under.

13, um, and what you do as a parent, how obsessed you are with your phone seems, from what I read, to be one of your biggest pieces of advice like don't be obsessed with your phone. And that's is that is that a big part of it or a.

13, um, and what you do as a parent, how obsessed you are with your phone seems, from what I read, to be one of your biggest pieces of advice like don't be obsessed with your phone. And that's is that is that a big part of it or a.

Constant theme through the book is they're always watching you. So kids are always watching you no matter what you do. So if you overreact to situations and you know, there's something fairly minor happens and you go overboard and get angry, not particularly at the child, but just in general. The child watches how you react, and they think that overreacting to minor situations is normal. Then you'll have a child who overreacts. And the same is true with screens. Research has shown that, uh, children's screen watching closely follows their parents. So if you're on your mobile phone all day, the child thinks that's normal and wonders why you're trying to exert discipline on their screen use. When you're screen watching, there's been some good research on that in the United Kingdom. What's at stake here is what's called the precautionary principle in public health, which is if you think something's a risk and there's no harm in removing it, then remove it. Mhm. I cannot find any evidence of harm in any of the literature of not giving a child a mobile phone before the age of 13, for example. Um, I can't find any evidence of delaying screen use until later on. Like the hard thing is of course, that schools use screens for educational purposes. But as one of the one child development researcher, Professor Steve Zubrick, who I tapped into a lot for this book in terms of advice and guidance, said, do you really think, though, that giving a blank screen to a child is going to do them harm? Of course it's not. There's nothing terrible about a blank screen. It's what's on the screen that counts, and also what that does to your parenting, and also what it does to the child's experience of life. If the child is sitting on a screen by themselves and you're not interacting with them and engaging in the story, then you're losing parenting time. If the child is stuck in their room on a screen and they're not out playing with their friends, they're losing social connectedness. The other issue with the content. It's about content. And one of the problems with content, when you allow your child on, you think, well, I'm monitoring it, I've got protections on the device and so on. Is that a lot of the content, even though it looks harmless.

Constant theme through the book is they're always watching you. So kids are always watching you no matter what you do. So if you overreact to situations and you know, there's something fairly minor happens and you go overboard and get angry, not particularly at the child, but just in general. The child watches how you react, and they think that overreacting to minor situations is normal. Then you'll have a child who overreacts. And the same is true with screens. Research has shown that, uh, children's screen watching closely follows their parents. So if you're on your mobile phone all day, the child thinks that's normal and wonders why you're trying to exert discipline on their screen use. When you're screen watching, there's been some good research on that in the United Kingdom. What's at stake here is what's called the precautionary principle in public health, which is if you think something's a risk and there's no harm in removing it, then remove it. Mhm. I cannot find any evidence of harm in any of the literature of not giving a child a mobile phone before the age of 13, for example. Um, I can't find any evidence of delaying screen use until later on. Like the hard thing is of course, that schools use screens for educational purposes. But as one of the one child development researcher, Professor Steve Zubrick, who I tapped into a lot for this book in terms of advice and guidance, said, do you really think, though, that giving a blank screen to a child is going to do them harm? Of course it's not. There's nothing terrible about a blank screen. It's what's on the screen that counts, and also what that does to your parenting, and also what it does to the child's experience of life. If the child is sitting on a screen by themselves and you're not interacting with them and engaging in the story, then you're losing parenting time. If the child is stuck in their room on a screen and they're not out playing with their friends, they're losing social connectedness. The other issue with the content. It's about content. And one of the problems with content, when you allow your child on, you think, well, I'm monitoring it, I've got protections on the device and so on. Is that a lot of the content, even though it looks harmless.

This.

This.

Is episodic. So if you think of TikTok, there might just be a harmless thing of a child playing with an animal on TikTok. What harm is that going to do? Um, rather than something toxic that's clearly toxic to a parent that you wouldn't want your child to watch? Is that it's episodic in nature. So when you sit down and read a book to your child, there's a narrative. There's a beginning, a middle and an end. And remember, you're dealing with fragile, developing brains. And so in every story that you read, no matter how short, there's a narrative and actions have consequences. So what would have happened if the little lamb hadn't bolted over there and done something else? And you have a conversation and children start to realize that life is a narrative and actions have consequences. All sorts of things that children get out of stories. They don't get it out of a 15 second TikTok. And so they lose, Potentially they lose that sense of narrative.

Is episodic. So if you think of TikTok, there might just be a harmless thing of a child playing with an animal on TikTok. What harm is that going to do? Um, rather than something toxic that's clearly toxic to a parent that you wouldn't want your child to watch? Is that it's episodic in nature. So when you sit down and read a book to your child, there's a narrative. There's a beginning, a middle and an end. And remember, you're dealing with fragile, developing brains. And so in every story that you read, no matter how short, there's a narrative and actions have consequences. So what would have happened if the little lamb hadn't bolted over there and done something else? And you have a conversation and children start to realize that life is a narrative and actions have consequences. All sorts of things that children get out of stories. They don't get it out of a 15 second TikTok. And so they lose, Potentially they lose that sense of narrative.

And so can can you at under ten say okay. So because I know people parents say that it's fighting a losing battle to try and keep screens from teenagers, but are you more or less saying that under ten you can. So you should.

And so can can you at under ten say okay. So because I know people parents say that it's fighting a losing battle to try and keep screens from teenagers, but are you more or less saying that under ten you can. So you should.

You're the parent of the child.

You're the parent of the child.

What do you think?

What do you think?

Well, what I think is that they should not get a mobile phone because once you've got a mobile phone, it's on for young and old and you're going to have a constant fight. Now, if it's a tablet or a computer screen, well, there's not that much difference between that in a television screen, but you've got to be engaged in it. I mean, you and I grew up in the television era, um, and probably sat on, monitored, watching all sorts of stuff on, on television. But this is a degree further. So sitting there with, um, a tablet as, as the means by which you engage in stories and content, or you're there with the child and engaging in what they're watching and that there are limits. You're not allowed this. You know, there are times of the day where you're allowed this and you're not going into your bedroom and being by yourself with it. Sorry. That's not going to happen. And it's part of that boundary setting. It's never been harder to be a parent than now. I'm very glad. Do you believe that? I do, because just think of all the influences on children that are so easy to acquire that we're actually quite hard. If you watch television, you had 3 or 4 channels. That was it. Mhm. Um, you didn't have streaming. You didn't have thousands of options open to your child where they learn to work, um, work a device. And the other thing that happens which goes to eating disorders and anxiety, both of which are almost certainly going up. Anxiety disorders probably going up in incidence. eating disorders. Definitely going up is the thing that happens when you know it was always possible, but it's called upward comparison, where you compare yourself to other people. There's always somebody who's more beautiful, more handsome, more muscular, thinner, better dressed than you, and you aspire to that. Screens through social media and also inadvertent access to that material makes that so much easier to acquire, where you're constantly comparing yourself to another and feeling dissatisfied about it.

Well, what I think is that they should not get a mobile phone because once you've got a mobile phone, it's on for young and old and you're going to have a constant fight. Now, if it's a tablet or a computer screen, well, there's not that much difference between that in a television screen, but you've got to be engaged in it. I mean, you and I grew up in the television era, um, and probably sat on, monitored, watching all sorts of stuff on, on television. But this is a degree further. So sitting there with, um, a tablet as, as the means by which you engage in stories and content, or you're there with the child and engaging in what they're watching and that there are limits. You're not allowed this. You know, there are times of the day where you're allowed this and you're not going into your bedroom and being by yourself with it. Sorry. That's not going to happen. And it's part of that boundary setting. It's never been harder to be a parent than now. I'm very glad. Do you believe that? I do, because just think of all the influences on children that are so easy to acquire that we're actually quite hard. If you watch television, you had 3 or 4 channels. That was it. Mhm. Um, you didn't have streaming. You didn't have thousands of options open to your child where they learn to work, um, work a device. And the other thing that happens which goes to eating disorders and anxiety, both of which are almost certainly going up. Anxiety disorders probably going up in incidence. eating disorders. Definitely going up is the thing that happens when you know it was always possible, but it's called upward comparison, where you compare yourself to other people. There's always somebody who's more beautiful, more handsome, more muscular, thinner, better dressed than you, and you aspire to that. Screens through social media and also inadvertent access to that material makes that so much easier to acquire, where you're constantly comparing yourself to another and feeling dissatisfied about it.

And if adults struggle with that, how on earth can kids be expected to be equivalent? You know? Exactly.

And if adults struggle with that, how on earth can kids be expected to be equivalent? You know? Exactly.

Yeah. We overestimate our children's cognitive capacity. So you might have a child who's incredibly articulate and converses with you, and you think that child has got great cognitive processing capacity. Well, there's still a 6 or 7 year old with and they don't necessarily understand everything and they don't aren't necessarily able to process it. So just because they talk like an adult doesn't mean their brain works like an adult. And they are still vulnerable.

Yeah. We overestimate our children's cognitive capacity. So you might have a child who's incredibly articulate and converses with you, and you think that child has got great cognitive processing capacity. Well, there's still a 6 or 7 year old with and they don't necessarily understand everything and they don't aren't necessarily able to process it. So just because they talk like an adult doesn't mean their brain works like an adult. And they are still vulnerable.

So what what was the most difficult part, like when you when you look back on it, what is it that you know, kept you awake at night and was was the most difficult area to look at in terms of how we parent under-tens?

So what what was the most difficult part, like when you when you look back on it, what is it that you know, kept you awake at night and was was the most difficult area to look at in terms of how we parent under-tens?

Um, first of all, knowing what was worth talking about and what was worth not talking about knowing what was real or not. So, for example, are we in the middle of an anxiety epidemic with children under ten? Are we in the middle of a depression epidemic of children under ten? The answer is no to depression, probably, and we. But anxiety is worrying and probably is growing. And are we in an eating order? I've got a real problem with eating disorders under ten and the answer is yes. Unfortunately with that, and Australia and New Zealand have high rates compared to other countries and nobody understands why. It may just be that we diagnose it better. So those were areas where you really had and and a lot of the research is fresh here where the eating disorders, there's lots of great eating disorder researchers around the world, but not enough of them. And so you're you're trying to tread through research and understand what what's worth paying attention to, what's good research and what's not. And that's where you've got to rely on people who really know what they're talking about, guiding you in that process. And I found the chapter on gender. I was quite honestly scared. You know, this has become a war zone.

Um, first of all, knowing what was worth talking about and what was worth not talking about knowing what was real or not. So, for example, are we in the middle of an anxiety epidemic with children under ten? Are we in the middle of a depression epidemic of children under ten? The answer is no to depression, probably, and we. But anxiety is worrying and probably is growing. And are we in an eating order? I've got a real problem with eating disorders under ten and the answer is yes. Unfortunately with that, and Australia and New Zealand have high rates compared to other countries and nobody understands why. It may just be that we diagnose it better. So those were areas where you really had and and a lot of the research is fresh here where the eating disorders, there's lots of great eating disorder researchers around the world, but not enough of them. And so you're you're trying to tread through research and understand what what's worth paying attention to, what's good research and what's not. And that's where you've got to rely on people who really know what they're talking about, guiding you in that process. And I found the chapter on gender. I was quite honestly scared. You know, this has become a war zone.

Yes. And you're wording is very important. Right. Were you nervous about how you actually say what you want to say?

Yes. And you're wording is very important. Right. Were you nervous about how you actually say what you want to say?

Yeah, I was very respectful throughout the book. I am very respectful throughout the book, and I used there a lot rather than him or her as a generic term. And and again, this is an area where the evidence is weak. I mean, it's much more I mean, I'm glad I'm not writing a book on adolescence where I think this becomes really fraught. But in the under-tens and the kids who are entering puberty, this whole idea of puberty blockers becomes very, very fraught. But the reality is it's a rare situation. The child who needs puberty blockers, it's it's incredibly rare.

Yeah, I was very respectful throughout the book. I am very respectful throughout the book, and I used there a lot rather than him or her as a generic term. And and again, this is an area where the evidence is weak. I mean, it's much more I mean, I'm glad I'm not writing a book on adolescence where I think this becomes really fraught. But in the under-tens and the kids who are entering puberty, this whole idea of puberty blockers becomes very, very fraught. But the reality is it's a rare situation. The child who needs puberty blockers, it's it's incredibly rare.

At any age or under ten.

At any age or under ten.

You mean? Well, it's really when it's defined by the child who needs puberty blockers. And some people would argue strongly against what I'm about to say. But the evidence base is not strong here one way or the other. But the child who who seems to benefit from puberty blockers is where really, since day one they were not quite day one, but where they've been able to identify themselves gender wise. They've always identified with the other gender. It's often boys and and it's just clear that this child, if allowed to go on, will need gender reassignment later on. It's rare. It's not a common situation. And if you can actually minimize their pubertal changes after puberty started, then it's going to be a much less traumatic procedure. If they go to that and it's reversible. And what they find is and a lot of the good research comes out, a lot of quite interesting research has come out of Western Australia where they've followed these children. A lot of these kids drop out of the clinics. They once the parents and the child goes through it, they realize it doesn't apply to them. And the kids who get to the end of the process and do need it. And it's an unusual situation. Very few of them turn back. They continue on it. There's a much bigger issue, which is not part of the scope of this book, is girls going through puberty and into adolescence, where there's always been a bit of gender ambivalence, is since time began with with gender identity and young women and girls. And the question is, do they actually need sex hormones to change their, their, their gender during those adolescent years, or is it just part of normal growing up? And it will sort itself out towards the end of adolescence and early adulthood. And that's a fraught area. But it's not part of this book, thankfully.

You mean? Well, it's really when it's defined by the child who needs puberty blockers. And some people would argue strongly against what I'm about to say. But the evidence base is not strong here one way or the other. But the child who who seems to benefit from puberty blockers is where really, since day one they were not quite day one, but where they've been able to identify themselves gender wise. They've always identified with the other gender. It's often boys and and it's just clear that this child, if allowed to go on, will need gender reassignment later on. It's rare. It's not a common situation. And if you can actually minimize their pubertal changes after puberty started, then it's going to be a much less traumatic procedure. If they go to that and it's reversible. And what they find is and a lot of the good research comes out, a lot of quite interesting research has come out of Western Australia where they've followed these children. A lot of these kids drop out of the clinics. They once the parents and the child goes through it, they realize it doesn't apply to them. And the kids who get to the end of the process and do need it. And it's an unusual situation. Very few of them turn back. They continue on it. There's a much bigger issue, which is not part of the scope of this book, is girls going through puberty and into adolescence, where there's always been a bit of gender ambivalence, is since time began with with gender identity and young women and girls. And the question is, do they actually need sex hormones to change their, their, their gender during those adolescent years, or is it just part of normal growing up? And it will sort itself out towards the end of adolescence and early adulthood. And that's a fraught area. But it's not part of this book, thankfully.

Thank God, and very fraught for parents to know what decision might be catastrophic. Hugely so.

Thank God, and very fraught for parents to know what decision might be catastrophic. Hugely so.

And that's where social media comes in, is that they're convinced. You know, kids are convinced that, well, this means, you know, um, I'm not the gender I thought I was, and I need to do something about it rather than letting it flow and see what happens.

And that's where social media comes in, is that they're convinced. You know, kids are convinced that, well, this means, you know, um, I'm not the gender I thought I was, and I need to do something about it rather than letting it flow and see what happens.

Coming back to your life, what do you think you as a parent did right and wrong? Like now, reflecting all your three kids are now adults. What did you do? Really? What do you what do you think? You did really well. And what do you think now? With hindsight, you should have done differently, especially having done all the research. Um, not just in Under-tens, but as a health reporter for many decades.

Coming back to your life, what do you think you as a parent did right and wrong? Like now, reflecting all your three kids are now adults. What did you do? Really? What do you what do you think? You did really well. And what do you think now? With hindsight, you should have done differently, especially having done all the research. Um, not just in Under-tens, but as a health reporter for many decades.

Um.

Um.

I think that because I'd seen dysfunctional parenting personally, um, I worked and I have to give credit to my children's mother. You know, I was busy. I was at work, I was traveling a lot.

I think that because I'd seen dysfunctional parenting personally, um, I worked and I have to give credit to my children's mother. You know, I was busy. I was at work, I was traveling a lot.

And she's a pediatrician as well. She's pretty. She's a proper.

And she's a pediatrician as well. She's pretty. She's a proper.

Pediatrician.

Pediatrician.

A real one. Yeah.

A real one. Yeah.

That's right. And she did the hard yards. And luckily, we did not differ much in our approach towards. And she'd grown up in a very functional family and sort of family I kind of wished I'd grown up in. And I talk a little bit about that in the book. Um, so having said that, that I don't think I played as big a role, um, as you might think, I, I, um, was consistent, I think with my children, they knew always knew where I was coming from. They always knew I loved them. Um, I did set boundaries and expectations, as did their mum, too. So my kids knew where they stood all the time. And they knew that wherever they were going to get out of life, they had to do for themselves. We'll provide the environment and the education and so on. But they had to go on and, you know, and we've turned out three kids who are not entitled Don't feel entitled to actually work hard. They're there at work before other people get there and they're still at work at the end. People often ask me about why Jonathan I'm actually no better known as Jonathan Swan's father, rather than.

That's right. And she did the hard yards. And luckily, we did not differ much in our approach towards. And she'd grown up in a very functional family and sort of family I kind of wished I'd grown up in. And I talk a little bit about that in the book. Um, so having said that, that I don't think I played as big a role, um, as you might think, I, I, um, was consistent, I think with my children, they knew always knew where I was coming from. They always knew I loved them. Um, I did set boundaries and expectations, as did their mum, too. So my kids knew where they stood all the time. And they knew that wherever they were going to get out of life, they had to do for themselves. We'll provide the environment and the education and so on. But they had to go on and, you know, and we've turned out three kids who are not entitled Don't feel entitled to actually work hard. They're there at work before other people get there and they're still at work at the end. People often ask me about why Jonathan I'm actually no better known as Jonathan Swan's father, rather than.

The New York Times writer who interviewed Trump in 2020. And it went viral. Yes.

The New York Times writer who interviewed Trump in 2020. And it went viral. Yes.

And still reports on Trump. Um, you know, people, journalists particularly say to him, how did he make it? Well, he's got talent, but lots of people got talent. He's a hard worker, you know, and he just puts in the hard yards and the hours. So I think we saw both their parents doing that. So I think we did did that well. And what could I have done better being there.

And still reports on Trump. Um, you know, people, journalists particularly say to him, how did he make it? Well, he's got talent, but lots of people got talent. He's a hard worker, you know, and he just puts in the hard yards and the hours. So I think we saw both their parents doing that. So I think we did did that well. And what could I have done better being there.

Mhm.

Mhm.

That's what every parent will tell you being there.

That's what every parent will tell you being there.

And can we escape our the bad parenting that we've had. That's always a thing isn't it.

And can we escape our the bad parenting that we've had. That's always a thing isn't it.

Um There are times when I think I quote in the book. There was one. I was writing a part of the book just after I'd had a particularly frustrating day at the ABC, and I had, you know, I don't have many tantrums, but I just lost it. I didn't lose it with any one person in particular. I just lost it and was expressing fury randomly and audibly around me. And I suddenly drew myself up because I was listening to my mother and I thought, oh, I've got to stop that. So, you know, you can't escape it completely, but if you understand it and have insight, then you're able to modify it.

Um There are times when I think I quote in the book. There was one. I was writing a part of the book just after I'd had a particularly frustrating day at the ABC, and I had, you know, I don't have many tantrums, but I just lost it. I didn't lose it with any one person in particular. I just lost it and was expressing fury randomly and audibly around me. And I suddenly drew myself up because I was listening to my mother and I thought, oh, I've got to stop that. So, you know, you can't escape it completely, but if you understand it and have insight, then you're able to modify it.

And your daughter Anna, we did a good weekend story in 2020. On, she had a horrific bike accident in Italy which she got an acquired brain injury from. What have you learned by watching her? She's married, she's got two kids. She's a childcare worker. What have you learned? I guess from her as a parent and watching her come out of that experience.

And your daughter Anna, we did a good weekend story in 2020. On, she had a horrific bike accident in Italy which she got an acquired brain injury from. What have you learned by watching her? She's married, she's got two kids. She's a childcare worker. What have you learned? I guess from her as a parent and watching her come out of that experience.

Um, I'm in awe of my daughter Anna. Um, she's got resilience. She bounces back. She's never once said, why me? And she's just worked and worked and worked at being as, you know, as good as she can possibly be, which is pretty impressive. And, you know, she works in early childhood education. She's got herself a degree in that. Um, and it's it's what is. It's eight years to the almost to the day from her accident where she was in a coma in a in a hospital ICU in Italy, and she was in hospital for seven months. It's just incredible to see. And that's her strength. I mean, her husband's strength, too. He's supported her and worked hard with her. And people have gathered around. But what I've learned from that is the power of resilience.

Um, I'm in awe of my daughter Anna. Um, she's got resilience. She bounces back. She's never once said, why me? And she's just worked and worked and worked at being as, you know, as good as she can possibly be, which is pretty impressive. And, you know, she works in early childhood education. She's got herself a degree in that. Um, and it's it's what is. It's eight years to the almost to the day from her accident where she was in a coma in a in a hospital ICU in Italy, and she was in hospital for seven months. It's just incredible to see. And that's her strength. I mean, her husband's strength, too. He's supported her and worked hard with her. And people have gathered around. But what I've learned from that is the power of resilience.

And she's she had that all along. Would you say?

And she's she had that all along. Would you say?

Yes.

Yes.

Um, but you only really find it out when something really bad happens.

Um, but you only really find it out when something really bad happens.

Final question. Final two questions. During Covid, um, you became both a household name. You probably already were, but more so. But you also got, you know, in the firing line for people who didn't agree with what you were saying. How do you reflect on that? Because health reporters before that pandemic, I don't think got such scrutiny and such abuse, really.

Final question. Final two questions. During Covid, um, you became both a household name. You probably already were, but more so. But you also got, you know, in the firing line for people who didn't agree with what you were saying. How do you reflect on that? Because health reporters before that pandemic, I don't think got such scrutiny and such abuse, really.

Um.

Um.

I uh, look, I the what I learnt out of that, which is did I learn it, it just reinforced what I always did anyway, which is, you've got to call it as it is, the evidence is the evidence and you present that and, um, and you're respectful of difference and different opinions, but you're presenting the evidence. Now, you don't do that in an arrogant sense. You do it in a fairly straightforward way. And, um, it's always difficult to deal with ideology when you're presenting the evidence. So you've got to be patient. And you do actually have to be resilient because the media pile on, which happens from the same, I call them, um, uh, second rate contrarians. Um, you know, there are people who populate part of the media who have made a name for themselves by just going against the grain. And they're second raters, and they're the same people who are against climate change. And it all comes from the same source. So you can't take it too seriously, but you also can't pretend it doesn't affect you emotionally. But you've just. So I had to stop My consumption of social media because it was just so toxic.

I uh, look, I the what I learnt out of that, which is did I learn it, it just reinforced what I always did anyway, which is, you've got to call it as it is, the evidence is the evidence and you present that and, um, and you're respectful of difference and different opinions, but you're presenting the evidence. Now, you don't do that in an arrogant sense. You do it in a fairly straightforward way. And, um, it's always difficult to deal with ideology when you're presenting the evidence. So you've got to be patient. And you do actually have to be resilient because the media pile on, which happens from the same, I call them, um, uh, second rate contrarians. Um, you know, there are people who populate part of the media who have made a name for themselves by just going against the grain. And they're second raters, and they're the same people who are against climate change. And it all comes from the same source. So you can't take it too seriously, but you also can't pretend it doesn't affect you emotionally. But you've just. So I had to stop My consumption of social media because it was just so toxic.

And I guess you just develop a thicker skin. Would you say you do have a thicker skin now?

And I guess you just develop a thicker skin. Would you say you do have a thicker skin now?

I always had a pretty thick skin. I'm not overreacting to things. I think a medical training does that for you. Where you if you if you are overreactive and you react to everything around you and you take it in, you don't survive terribly well in medicine. You have to learn. And it's bad. On the other side, where your skin's too thick, where you don't respond to people but you. In fact.

I always had a pretty thick skin. I'm not overreacting to things. I think a medical training does that for you. Where you if you if you are overreactive and you react to everything around you and you take it in, you don't survive terribly well in medicine. You have to learn. And it's bad. On the other side, where your skin's too thick, where you don't respond to people but you. In fact.

That's what people often say about doctors, isn't it?

That's what people often say about doctors, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the training is part of the training is to toughen you up. Mhm.

And the training is part of the training is to toughen you up. Mhm.

You've just got married for a third time. Yes. What's your biggest lesson on relationships. Just to, just to finish off.

You've just got married for a third time. Yes. What's your biggest lesson on relationships. Just to, just to finish off.

Um I think to understand yourself, um, is really the important part. And to be really sensitive to others and to understand What's really of value in the person that you love and and appreciate that.

Um I think to understand yourself, um, is really the important part. And to be really sensitive to others and to understand What's really of value in the person that you love and and appreciate that.

Thank you Norman. It's been a great chat and.

Thank you Norman. It's been a great chat and.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me.

So you want to know what's good for your kids is out now.

So you want to know what's good for your kids is out now.

Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong. Editing from Konrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.

Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong. Editing from Konrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.