Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with Max Chandler-mather. Since entering Parliament two years ago, the Young Greens MP has shaken up federal politics with his no holds barred take on the housing crisis. He's the subject of our cover story this week, Mr. Unpopularity, which explores what drew him to politics, how politicians from both sides seem to loathe him, and why he's happy to take the knocks. And hosting this conversation about Chandler Mather's own experience as a renter, his belief in door knocking and how he reacts to the heckling he gets in Parliament is the author of that piece. Good weekend, senior writer Jane Cadzow.

Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with Max Chandler-mather. Since entering Parliament two years ago, the Young Greens MP has shaken up federal politics with his no holds barred take on the housing crisis. He's the subject of our cover story this week, Mr. Unpopularity, which explores what drew him to politics, how politicians from both sides seem to loathe him, and why he's happy to take the knocks. And hosting this conversation about Chandler Mather's own experience as a renter, his belief in door knocking and how he reacts to the heckling he gets in Parliament is the author of that piece. Good weekend, senior writer Jane Cadzow.

Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Max Chandler-mather.

Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Max Chandler-mather.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me.

Let's start by talking about the heckling you often get from both the government and the opposition. When you stand up to speak in the House of Representatives. What's that about?

Let's start by talking about the heckling you often get from both the government and the opposition. When you stand up to speak in the House of Representatives. What's that about?

Well, I think, uh, these are two political parties who are very used to being in power and being in control and not being challenged on a lot of the fundamental fundamentals that they actually end up agreeing on. Then being challenged on that, I think, is confronting for them clearly. Uh, obviously the heckling is often quite personal as well, and I suppose that's a sign that they don't actually have much of a policy basis to rebut on. And so what they attempt to do is to discredit people and, uh, and attack their character. And they do that because it's a tried and tested method to try and defeat policy arguments without ever having to engage on the substance.

Well, I think, uh, these are two political parties who are very used to being in power and being in control and not being challenged on a lot of the fundamental fundamentals that they actually end up agreeing on. Then being challenged on that, I think, is confronting for them clearly. Uh, obviously the heckling is often quite personal as well, and I suppose that's a sign that they don't actually have much of a policy basis to rebut on. And so what they attempt to do is to discredit people and, uh, and attack their character. And they do that because it's a tried and tested method to try and defeat policy arguments without ever having to engage on the substance.

I think it's not all the Greens who they heckle as much as they they really heckle you. Why don't they like you, Max?

I think it's not all the Greens who they heckle as much as they they really heckle you. Why don't they like you, Max?

It's a well, at the end of the day, you'll have to ask them, uh, but, uh, you know, I think obviously recently there's part of what happened in Queensland was this huge movement of people, uh, that we ended up, uh, winning a bunch of seats in Queensland that no one gave us a shot of winning.

It's a well, at the end of the day, you'll have to ask them, uh, but, uh, you know, I think obviously recently there's part of what happened in Queensland was this huge movement of people, uh, that we ended up, uh, winning a bunch of seats in Queensland that no one gave us a shot of winning.

Yes. You won. So at the last federal election. Yeah. The Greens, uh, before that election, the Greens had one MP in federal parliament, your leader Adam Bandt. That's right. And at the 2022 federal election, three Queenslanders, three Queensland Greens from Brisbane won seats in the House of Representatives. And Queensland now has two senators as well. That's right. Yeah, yeah. So you've got five people in federal parliament and no other state has more than two.

Yes. You won. So at the last federal election. Yeah. The Greens, uh, before that election, the Greens had one MP in federal parliament, your leader Adam Bandt. That's right. And at the 2022 federal election, three Queenslanders, three Queensland Greens from Brisbane won seats in the House of Representatives. And Queensland now has two senators as well. That's right. Yeah, yeah. So you've got five people in federal parliament and no other state has more than two.

No. That's right. And you know, we won on the basis on a politics and form of organisation. That said, if we can organise enough ordinary people to go and knock on tens of thousands of doors on a politics that, you know, in some ways is very progressive, but I think also speaks to people's direct material concerns. Uh, well, then we can win. And I think that poses an existential threat to both labor and the Liberal Party. And obviously, I'm one of the people that helped organise that in Queensland. And so I suppose, um, perhaps both major parties feel threatened in a way that here's this movement that, um, breaks a lot of the political common senses around what is and isn't a winnable seat. And I think probably that's a bit confronting for them as well.

No. That's right. And you know, we won on the basis on a politics and form of organisation. That said, if we can organise enough ordinary people to go and knock on tens of thousands of doors on a politics that, you know, in some ways is very progressive, but I think also speaks to people's direct material concerns. Uh, well, then we can win. And I think that poses an existential threat to both labor and the Liberal Party. And obviously, I'm one of the people that helped organise that in Queensland. And so I suppose, um, perhaps both major parties feel threatened in a way that here's this movement that, um, breaks a lot of the political common senses around what is and isn't a winnable seat. And I think probably that's a bit confronting for them as well.

Your door knocking program and the technique that I think you've introduced in Queensland, um, I spent some time door knocking with you, so I saw a bit of it first hand. But tell us, you know, what the principles of it are and what you're trying to achieve.

Your door knocking program and the technique that I think you've introduced in Queensland, um, I spent some time door knocking with you, so I saw a bit of it first hand. But tell us, you know, what the principles of it are and what you're trying to achieve.

A few principles, uh, one is that we know that increasingly people, ordinary people, feel completely disconnected from politics, that politics is an institution. And certainly the major parties no longer have any much of a real direct, organic connection into the local communities they claim to represent. And so door knocking in the first instance is about reaching out to people who feel completely disillusioned with politics and feel like it doesn't actually do much for their day to day lives and reforming that connection. And it's on the basis that we understand that ordinary people are experts in their own lives, and actually we have just as much to learn from them as they do, uh, learn about sort of Greens policies. And so, uh, I've described it before as a form of social work in a way, and that doesn't fully encompass it. But what it does capture is, uh, the important aspect that often a lot of these conversations are just going into the sort of day to day aspects of their lives. I know one of the conversations, the first one we had when you were door knocking with me, we were just talking about this woman struggling to pay the rent, struggling with her health concerns and, uh, what that meant for her life and what we realized is if you were able to do this at scale and reach people at scale, there's a lot of people for whom, well, you know, they actually haven't heard about what the Greens stand for or what how our politics might improve their lives because we don't get that much coverage in the media. And once we do reach them, a lot of them end up voting greens for the first time. And, you know, uh, what I think this means in the end is if we do have the capacity and the party organizationally has the capacity to knock on more doors and reach more people and a bunch of electorates, well, we can win a bunch more. And there are seats across Australia, uh, where if we had the capacity to run the sort of door knocking campaign that we ran in Queensland, well, then we would win them. Like literally the only barrier, as far as we can tell, is our capacity to organise in those communities. So it's not just about shifting people to voting for the Greens though. It's also about changing the party a little bit as well. It changes our politics when we go and talk to thousands of people. It changes the way we think we should represent that community and brings both the community and the Greens as a political party, closer together.

A few principles, uh, one is that we know that increasingly people, ordinary people, feel completely disconnected from politics, that politics is an institution. And certainly the major parties no longer have any much of a real direct, organic connection into the local communities they claim to represent. And so door knocking in the first instance is about reaching out to people who feel completely disillusioned with politics and feel like it doesn't actually do much for their day to day lives and reforming that connection. And it's on the basis that we understand that ordinary people are experts in their own lives, and actually we have just as much to learn from them as they do, uh, learn about sort of Greens policies. And so, uh, I've described it before as a form of social work in a way, and that doesn't fully encompass it. But what it does capture is, uh, the important aspect that often a lot of these conversations are just going into the sort of day to day aspects of their lives. I know one of the conversations, the first one we had when you were door knocking with me, we were just talking about this woman struggling to pay the rent, struggling with her health concerns and, uh, what that meant for her life and what we realized is if you were able to do this at scale and reach people at scale, there's a lot of people for whom, well, you know, they actually haven't heard about what the Greens stand for or what how our politics might improve their lives because we don't get that much coverage in the media. And once we do reach them, a lot of them end up voting greens for the first time. And, you know, uh, what I think this means in the end is if we do have the capacity and the party organizationally has the capacity to knock on more doors and reach more people and a bunch of electorates, well, we can win a bunch more. And there are seats across Australia, uh, where if we had the capacity to run the sort of door knocking campaign that we ran in Queensland, well, then we would win them. Like literally the only barrier, as far as we can tell, is our capacity to organise in those communities. So it's not just about shifting people to voting for the Greens though. It's also about changing the party a little bit as well. It changes our politics when we go and talk to thousands of people. It changes the way we think we should represent that community and brings both the community and the Greens as a political party, closer together.

So you're the Greens housing spokesperson. Do you think the fact that you rent the place you live in, does that help? How does that affect your ability to to be the spokesperson?

So you're the Greens housing spokesperson. Do you think the fact that you rent the place you live in, does that help? How does that affect your ability to to be the spokesperson?

Yeah, I mean, look, I think it certainly the experience of renting is one that unless you haven't rent, if you haven't rented for a while, I think you probably do forget how the visceral experience of powerlessness that comes with being a renter. And, uh, certainly in the last few years, you know, I've had experience with previous landlords of being evicted with on no grounds and losing a home you thought you were going to stay in for a long time trying to get basic maintenance done, uh, and being abused. I'm sure a lot of, uh, renters have had a lot of renters have that experience, and copying big rent increases and knowing there's literally nothing you can do about it. And and that is an experience that one third of the country has, but not an experience that a lot of people in politics have had recently.

Yeah, I mean, look, I think it certainly the experience of renting is one that unless you haven't rent, if you haven't rented for a while, I think you probably do forget how the visceral experience of powerlessness that comes with being a renter. And, uh, certainly in the last few years, you know, I've had experience with previous landlords of being evicted with on no grounds and losing a home you thought you were going to stay in for a long time trying to get basic maintenance done, uh, and being abused. I'm sure a lot of, uh, renters have had a lot of renters have that experience, and copying big rent increases and knowing there's literally nothing you can do about it. And and that is an experience that one third of the country has, but not an experience that a lot of people in politics have had recently.

Yeah. In fact, um, I think in, in federal parliament, you are in a tiny minority being a renter.

Yeah. In fact, um, I think in, in federal parliament, you are in a tiny minority being a renter.

It's me and, um, the federal Greens MP, Stephen Bates. Uh, and I think maybe 1 or 2 others, you know, uh, in a parliament of hundreds of people, uh, certainly. You know, I mean, and I think the point to make here is there's a lot of property investors, so well over 65, 65% of the coalition MPs in Parliament are property investors. More from the Labor Party. It's something like 70%.

It's me and, um, the federal Greens MP, Stephen Bates. Uh, and I think maybe 1 or 2 others, you know, uh, in a parliament of hundreds of people, uh, certainly. You know, I mean, and I think the point to make here is there's a lot of property investors, so well over 65, 65% of the coalition MPs in Parliament are property investors. More from the Labor Party. It's something like 70%.

And overall, I think it's um, two thirds of federal MPs have more than one property.

And overall, I think it's um, two thirds of federal MPs have more than one property.

That's right. And I think that probably does affect, uh, your politics in some ways. How couldn't it and. It's become so naturalized because amongst the sort of political class in general and sections of the policy class and sort of, uh, wealthier bureaucrats, um, it's so common to own property investments. But if you think about it, it's sort of bizarre, right? We can have a policy debate about phasing out negative gearing and the capital gains tax discount. These are very lucrative, uh, tax concessions that property investors, including those in Parliament, get. Now, it is sort of strange that these people who directly financially benefit from those tax changes, uh, and from those tax handouts, um, don't have to declare or make and make clear when those debates are happening that they have a direct conflict of interest to spell it out. There could be a situation where the government decides privately in cabinet to make changes to negative gearing and the capital gains tax discount. Now, that would put downward pressure on property prices. What happens if a member of cabinet makes sells one of their property investments prior to it being announced that, uh, they're going to make changes to negative gearing and the capital gains tax discount. Now, I would argue that that is deeply unethical. So there's that. And that's just not for whatever reason. That's never an acceptable mode of discussion in large parts of the media, um, or amongst the political classes just taken as given. Well, you know, they all own investment properties and, and and that's a thing. The second thing though is. I think this comes back to part of the heckling. Right? Like, um, I don't think this is a this is a political class is so used to being in charge and in power and not having the fundamentals of that power challenged in any meaningful way. And I don't think it's me so much as an individual. Maybe it is, but I do think that it's confronting to be, uh, uh, confronted with the fact that there's this increasingly now quite politically aware and socially and conscious and self-conscious renter class in Australia who are starting to wonder, why is it that if there's one third of the country who rents there is less than 1% of, uh, them in Parliament? But there are, uh, two thirds of Parliament who are property investors, who are a far smaller fraction of the population. Uh, and uh, I always say if they, the Labor Party are like, well, you know, they might try, they'll they'll try and win back Griffith and they'll give it a good go. They can have a go at me, but there's going to be many more people like me who are going to appear in Parliament, I think over the next, um, few election cycles, precisely because it's now become increasingly clear just how stacked the political and economic system is against renters.

That's right. And I think that probably does affect, uh, your politics in some ways. How couldn't it and. It's become so naturalized because amongst the sort of political class in general and sections of the policy class and sort of, uh, wealthier bureaucrats, um, it's so common to own property investments. But if you think about it, it's sort of bizarre, right? We can have a policy debate about phasing out negative gearing and the capital gains tax discount. These are very lucrative, uh, tax concessions that property investors, including those in Parliament, get. Now, it is sort of strange that these people who directly financially benefit from those tax changes, uh, and from those tax handouts, um, don't have to declare or make and make clear when those debates are happening that they have a direct conflict of interest to spell it out. There could be a situation where the government decides privately in cabinet to make changes to negative gearing and the capital gains tax discount. Now, that would put downward pressure on property prices. What happens if a member of cabinet makes sells one of their property investments prior to it being announced that, uh, they're going to make changes to negative gearing and the capital gains tax discount. Now, I would argue that that is deeply unethical. So there's that. And that's just not for whatever reason. That's never an acceptable mode of discussion in large parts of the media, um, or amongst the political classes just taken as given. Well, you know, they all own investment properties and, and and that's a thing. The second thing though is. I think this comes back to part of the heckling. Right? Like, um, I don't think this is a this is a political class is so used to being in charge and in power and not having the fundamentals of that power challenged in any meaningful way. And I don't think it's me so much as an individual. Maybe it is, but I do think that it's confronting to be, uh, uh, confronted with the fact that there's this increasingly now quite politically aware and socially and conscious and self-conscious renter class in Australia who are starting to wonder, why is it that if there's one third of the country who rents there is less than 1% of, uh, them in Parliament? But there are, uh, two thirds of Parliament who are property investors, who are a far smaller fraction of the population. Uh, and uh, I always say if they, the Labor Party are like, well, you know, they might try, they'll they'll try and win back Griffith and they'll give it a good go. They can have a go at me, but there's going to be many more people like me who are going to appear in Parliament, I think over the next, um, few election cycles, precisely because it's now become increasingly clear just how stacked the political and economic system is against renters.

One of the ways you're engaging with your electorate? Griffith obviously, part of your strategy to hang on to it at the next election is your free meals program. And so I'm interested to ask you about that. I saw a little bit of that in action, too. I came to, um, a dinner in the park and a breakfast, um, at a school. So tell me about that. Why do you do it? And also the other thing that I think is really interesting, you told me that by the time because you did so much door knocking, you basically gave up work for 12 months before you got elected. By the time you got elected, you had $25 left in the bank.

One of the ways you're engaging with your electorate? Griffith obviously, part of your strategy to hang on to it at the next election is your free meals program. And so I'm interested to ask you about that. I saw a little bit of that in action, too. I came to, um, a dinner in the park and a breakfast, um, at a school. So tell me about that. Why do you do it? And also the other thing that I think is really interesting, you told me that by the time because you did so much door knocking, you basically gave up work for 12 months before you got elected. By the time you got elected, you had $25 left in the bank.

27, 25 or something like that. Yeah, yeah, roughly 25.

27, 25 or something like that. Yeah, yeah, roughly 25.

Yeah. Um, and so suddenly you've got a salary of over $200,000.

Yeah. Um, and so suddenly you've got a salary of over $200,000.

Well, over. Yeah, yeah, it's a big change. Um, so on the free meals program, there's three reasons we do it. One, we're in a cost of living crisis. And, uh, one of the advantages the Greens have is we have a huge volunteer network. And all of a sudden, now being elected as a federal MP, far greater financial resources to do things like this, combine them, and we can actually run quite sophisticated and large free, free meal programs that will help people.

Well, over. Yeah, yeah, it's a big change. Um, so on the free meals program, there's three reasons we do it. One, we're in a cost of living crisis. And, uh, one of the advantages the Greens have is we have a huge volunteer network. And all of a sudden, now being elected as a federal MP, far greater financial resources to do things like this, combine them, and we can actually run quite sophisticated and large free, free meal programs that will help people.

You use a fair chunk of your salary, $30,000 now.

You use a fair chunk of your salary, $30,000 now.

Yeah. Um, and that's on top. I think that's federal MPs get what's called an electoral allowance. It's about $30,000. I obviously use all of that, um, to help run our programs and the other local community stuff on top of that contribute another $30,000 of my salary to the program. So there's that direct help and support for people. Uh, and we always said in the lead up to the election, it's fulfilling an election promise. We said to our volunteer base, well, imagine if we got the resources of a federal MPs office what we could do to directly help people. And we said we would run a free school meal program. So in a way, this is just delivering a promise. So there's that and we're running them in three schools, public schools now and two weekly free dinners, one for rough sleepers under a bridge in West End, um, jointly with the state MP Amy McMahon. And then another one now in Hanlon Park in Stone's corner. And they're universal. Anyone can come along. We don't ask to see people's pay slips. They don't have to show they're doing it tough, because it's important to us that people don't have to prove that they're deserving poor. We want it to be a community based thing. We want someone on a on a higher income standing next to someone who might be sleeping rough, eating the same meal. Uh, for us, that's important. So there's that. Secondly, uh, this is a way of building political pressure on the government to roll out programs like this themselves. Finland. Every single public school serves a universal, free, healthy, warm lunch. Hot lunch, uh, for kids. Now, the point we want to make is if we can do this, just the little old greens. Well, why can't the government do it in every state school? And then finally. Look, I think eventually the Greens will form government. But to get there, um, part of it is the Greens being a little bit different to the major parties. And part of that has to be we need to be a mass political party with the capacity to have genuine, organic, real roots into civil society and prove that we're a party that has the capacity to help people in need. And now, here and now and eventually, I think the goal should be that every time someone elects a Greens MP, they know when they elect them. Every single one of their public schools in that area will get immediately get a free meal program. There'll be parks in that electorate that will start up free food programs. They'll know that every time, uh, that if they want those programs to roll out in their electorate, well, they have to vote Greens. And there's an electoral aspect to that. But crucially, also there's a that's how I think we get political change, because when we then start doing things like trying to tax big corporations more or take on property developers or take on the banks, they're very powerful institutions. And the only way we can confront that power is with community power and community power comes with, uh, building those layers of trust and connection that partly come with the capacity to run things like free meal programs.

Yeah. Um, and that's on top. I think that's federal MPs get what's called an electoral allowance. It's about $30,000. I obviously use all of that, um, to help run our programs and the other local community stuff on top of that contribute another $30,000 of my salary to the program. So there's that direct help and support for people. Uh, and we always said in the lead up to the election, it's fulfilling an election promise. We said to our volunteer base, well, imagine if we got the resources of a federal MPs office what we could do to directly help people. And we said we would run a free school meal program. So in a way, this is just delivering a promise. So there's that and we're running them in three schools, public schools now and two weekly free dinners, one for rough sleepers under a bridge in West End, um, jointly with the state MP Amy McMahon. And then another one now in Hanlon Park in Stone's corner. And they're universal. Anyone can come along. We don't ask to see people's pay slips. They don't have to show they're doing it tough, because it's important to us that people don't have to prove that they're deserving poor. We want it to be a community based thing. We want someone on a on a higher income standing next to someone who might be sleeping rough, eating the same meal. Uh, for us, that's important. So there's that. Secondly, uh, this is a way of building political pressure on the government to roll out programs like this themselves. Finland. Every single public school serves a universal, free, healthy, warm lunch. Hot lunch, uh, for kids. Now, the point we want to make is if we can do this, just the little old greens. Well, why can't the government do it in every state school? And then finally. Look, I think eventually the Greens will form government. But to get there, um, part of it is the Greens being a little bit different to the major parties. And part of that has to be we need to be a mass political party with the capacity to have genuine, organic, real roots into civil society and prove that we're a party that has the capacity to help people in need. And now, here and now and eventually, I think the goal should be that every time someone elects a Greens MP, they know when they elect them. Every single one of their public schools in that area will get immediately get a free meal program. There'll be parks in that electorate that will start up free food programs. They'll know that every time, uh, that if they want those programs to roll out in their electorate, well, they have to vote Greens. And there's an electoral aspect to that. But crucially, also there's a that's how I think we get political change, because when we then start doing things like trying to tax big corporations more or take on property developers or take on the banks, they're very powerful institutions. And the only way we can confront that power is with community power and community power comes with, uh, building those layers of trust and connection that partly come with the capacity to run things like free meal programs.

You've got a very long way to go to form government. You four MPs out of 151, is it in the House of Representatives? How far ahead do you think? Realistically. You know the Greens will be.

You've got a very long way to go to form government. You four MPs out of 151, is it in the House of Representatives? How far ahead do you think? Realistically. You know the Greens will be.

I think, over the.

I think, over the.

Next serious force.

Next serious force.

Well, over the next 15 to 20 years I, I think is realistic. I mean, I think two things on this. I'm a student of history and I think in sort of modern politics. We've partly lost the capacity to understand what genuine social and political change looks like. If you look previously, the emergence of the labour movement in the 19th century took decades. And it was a long time before the first Labour government emerged from when you when you, you know, 30, 40, 50. Don't quote me on this, but it's I suppose I am being quoted, but, you know, decades. Um, don't want to put a number on it a long time, not a few years. And, uh, there was social shifts that underlied those, those big political shifts, the emergence of, um, of an industrial working class, uh, in Europe and in Australia. Um, there's a there's another shift going on right now. And part of that shift is the sort of disintegration and hollowing out of the two major political parties. Uh, they're, you know, um, in the most recent election that was Labor's lowest. They won, but that was Labor's lowest primary vote, I think, since World War two. Um, pretty remarkable. Uh, and the share of the major party vote is declining every year, partly because they have hollowed out. Now, what's happening on the other side is this emergence of a rentier class, who, I would argue the Greens are increasingly the representative party of, but also a growing layer of people who feel completely disconnected from politics in the way the economic system works. And we're organizing in that space. Now, that doesn't happen in a few 1 or 2 elections. It happens over a period of time. But if you look at the historical trajectory and if the Greens keep sort of building itself, and it's the infrastructure of a mass political party, which is, I think, where we're heading if we play our cards right. Absolutely no reason in that time period. We don't end up in government. And, um, often people will tell us, well, I'm sick of the way politics is this short term thing. And people think in short term ways. Well, if we're going to solve the housing crisis, it is going to it's a these are long term structural fixes. And one of the key aspects to that is building a political force and a movement capable of taking on the people who do wield power over politics right now, which are banks, uh, which are the property industry, which are two parties who I would argue are utterly captured by those people. Uh, and that's not just the correct policies. That is also a movement, uh, capable of pushing those changes through politics.

Well, over the next 15 to 20 years I, I think is realistic. I mean, I think two things on this. I'm a student of history and I think in sort of modern politics. We've partly lost the capacity to understand what genuine social and political change looks like. If you look previously, the emergence of the labour movement in the 19th century took decades. And it was a long time before the first Labour government emerged from when you when you, you know, 30, 40, 50. Don't quote me on this, but it's I suppose I am being quoted, but, you know, decades. Um, don't want to put a number on it a long time, not a few years. And, uh, there was social shifts that underlied those, those big political shifts, the emergence of, um, of an industrial working class, uh, in Europe and in Australia. Um, there's a there's another shift going on right now. And part of that shift is the sort of disintegration and hollowing out of the two major political parties. Uh, they're, you know, um, in the most recent election that was Labor's lowest. They won, but that was Labor's lowest primary vote, I think, since World War two. Um, pretty remarkable. Uh, and the share of the major party vote is declining every year, partly because they have hollowed out. Now, what's happening on the other side is this emergence of a rentier class, who, I would argue the Greens are increasingly the representative party of, but also a growing layer of people who feel completely disconnected from politics in the way the economic system works. And we're organizing in that space. Now, that doesn't happen in a few 1 or 2 elections. It happens over a period of time. But if you look at the historical trajectory and if the Greens keep sort of building itself, and it's the infrastructure of a mass political party, which is, I think, where we're heading if we play our cards right. Absolutely no reason in that time period. We don't end up in government. And, um, often people will tell us, well, I'm sick of the way politics is this short term thing. And people think in short term ways. Well, if we're going to solve the housing crisis, it is going to it's a these are long term structural fixes. And one of the key aspects to that is building a political force and a movement capable of taking on the people who do wield power over politics right now, which are banks, uh, which are the property industry, which are two parties who I would argue are utterly captured by those people. Uh, and that's not just the correct policies. That is also a movement, uh, capable of pushing those changes through politics.

Let's talk about your background and how you were drawn to politics and why. So you grew up in your electorate?

Let's talk about your background and how you were drawn to politics and why. So you grew up in your electorate?

Yeah. In, uh, in West End, um, which is a very different place back then.

Yeah. In, uh, in West End, um, which is a very different place back then.

It's an inner.

It's an inner.

Inner city.

Inner city.

Area.

Area.

Suburb. Its history was it was a, um, a lot of prior to when I was born, but it was a rougher area. Um, and when I was born, it was still considered a pretty rough area. Its history was sort of in a lot of industry and light industry along the river. Uh, and, uh, born in Sharehouse. Uh, my parents lived in a share house for the first, apparently, I think for the first six months or 12 months of my life.

Suburb. Its history was it was a, um, a lot of prior to when I was born, but it was a rougher area. Um, and when I was born, it was still considered a pretty rough area. Its history was sort of in a lot of industry and light industry along the river. Uh, and, uh, born in Sharehouse. Uh, my parents lived in a share house for the first, apparently, I think for the first six months or 12 months of my life.

And you've described them to me as, you know, sort of radical lefties.

And you've described them to me as, you know, sort of radical lefties.

Yeah, they were both definitely. Um, I think my dad was probably a bit more of an anarchist. Um, and my mum a bit more of a socialist. Um, uh, and, you know, mum, was she, um, very proud of her trajectory, really? She was the first one from her family to go to university because it was free. She grew up in Ipswich, um, in a rough, rough area in a very working class family. Her mum worked in a textile factory, and she sort of made it that way. And my dad came from a bit more of a middle class family. And yeah, they ended up buying a house for about, I think, $140,000. And in West End, in the same street. In the same street.

Yeah, they were both definitely. Um, I think my dad was probably a bit more of an anarchist. Um, and my mum a bit more of a socialist. Um, uh, and, you know, mum, was she, um, very proud of her trajectory, really? She was the first one from her family to go to university because it was free. She grew up in Ipswich, um, in a rough, rough area in a very working class family. Her mum worked in a textile factory, and she sort of made it that way. And my dad came from a bit more of a middle class family. And yeah, they ended up buying a house for about, I think, $140,000. And in West End, in the same street. In the same street.

Why not.

Why not.

Street? Why not street? That's right. Uh, I understand the history of that. Is that a developer a long time ago wanted to call it why not Street? So you could say. Why not live on? Why not Street? Um, but but the street sign was stolen basically every couple of weeks, like I bet. Yeah. People love to steal that street sign. And it was a look, I had a very, in many ways, a lucky childhood. Like, we basically every afternoon after school, there'd be a group of neighborhood kids, like, there's a big Greek population in West End. So a bunch of, like a lot of the Greek families and Greek kids and sort of very, in many ways, multicultural area. We would just play like cricket on the street, soccer on the street, like touch footy, AFL, big water bum fights, like you knew when you got home in the afternoon. A few things, especially in summer, it was going to be a big storm. You'd wait it out and then you'd go and play footy.

Street? Why not street? That's right. Uh, I understand the history of that. Is that a developer a long time ago wanted to call it why not Street? So you could say. Why not live on? Why not Street? Um, but but the street sign was stolen basically every couple of weeks, like I bet. Yeah. People love to steal that street sign. And it was a look, I had a very, in many ways, a lucky childhood. Like, we basically every afternoon after school, there'd be a group of neighborhood kids, like, there's a big Greek population in West End. So a bunch of, like a lot of the Greek families and Greek kids and sort of very, in many ways, multicultural area. We would just play like cricket on the street, soccer on the street, like touch footy, AFL, big water bum fights, like you knew when you got home in the afternoon. A few things, especially in summer, it was going to be a big storm. You'd wait it out and then you'd go and play footy.

Love those Brisbane storms. Yeah. Afternoon storms. It was incredible.

Love those Brisbane storms. Yeah. Afternoon storms. It was incredible.

And you know, in many ways it was like, um, I felt very lucky. And I think how that changed my politics. I mean, certainly, um, in the first few years of my life, we were never I don't I would never argue. It was we were a poor family. But certainly you were very aware of money in the first few years of my life and my parents always worrying about it. I mean, I think their influence on me was very much political, um, and understand, like getting a good sense of right and wrong and things like that. Uh, but I think also, uh, you know, you had this experience of what happened when you had, like, what West End was at that point was affordable housing. Like, you could like working people could afford to buy a home there. And, you know, it was only about 3 to 4. That was 3 to 4 times the average income back then. Now, if you want to buy a house in West End, it's probably 30 or 40 times the average income.

And you know, in many ways it was like, um, I felt very lucky. And I think how that changed my politics. I mean, certainly, um, in the first few years of my life, we were never I don't I would never argue. It was we were a poor family. But certainly you were very aware of money in the first few years of my life and my parents always worrying about it. I mean, I think their influence on me was very much political, um, and understand, like getting a good sense of right and wrong and things like that. Uh, but I think also, uh, you know, you had this experience of what happened when you had, like, what West End was at that point was affordable housing. Like, you could like working people could afford to buy a home there. And, you know, it was only about 3 to 4. That was 3 to 4 times the average income back then. Now, if you want to buy a house in West End, it's probably 30 or 40 times the average income.

Well, I looked it up. And the median price in West End is 1.5 million. Yeah.

Well, I looked it up. And the median price in West End is 1.5 million. Yeah.

There you go. And what? It's the, um. Yeah. The average income is it's about $104,000 now. So yeah, you can do the maths. But also, you know, these very connected communities where I think a lot of kids don't get that experience. Now where you do, you do have the space to go and run around and play around, and it is safe to play on the street. And, um, you do form those connections.

There you go. And what? It's the, um. Yeah. The average income is it's about $104,000 now. So yeah, you can do the maths. But also, you know, these very connected communities where I think a lot of kids don't get that experience. Now where you do, you do have the space to go and run around and play around, and it is safe to play on the street. And, um, you do form those connections.

And you went to well, you went to Brisbane State High School. Yeah. And then you went to Queensland University and studied history and English literature, majored. But you were a student activist and you were you joined the Labour Party?

And you went to well, you went to Brisbane State High School. Yeah. And then you went to Queensland University and studied history and English literature, majored. But you were a student activist and you were you joined the Labour Party?

Yeah. I um, well, my first day of uni, I tried to join the socialists and then, um, about I quit the day after because they were a bit wacky. Um, um, but I liked, you know, some of their principles and then joined the Whitlam Club because I like Gough Whitlam and thought he was a, you know, I still think he's probably Australia's best prime minister. Um, and, and, uh, turns out that was just a bit of a front for, um, the labour left, um, which I found out subsequently, uh, probably unsurprisingly, given the name of the club and yeah, I mean, I drawn to politics, partly because I had an interest in history. Uh, you know, if you understand, if you want things to change and you understand history, then you understand that to do that, you need to build large political movements and organise lots of people to build sort of large collective power, whatever you're trying to do.

Yeah. I um, well, my first day of uni, I tried to join the socialists and then, um, about I quit the day after because they were a bit wacky. Um, um, but I liked, you know, some of their principles and then joined the Whitlam Club because I like Gough Whitlam and thought he was a, you know, I still think he's probably Australia's best prime minister. Um, and, and, uh, turns out that was just a bit of a front for, um, the labour left, um, which I found out subsequently, uh, probably unsurprisingly, given the name of the club and yeah, I mean, I drawn to politics, partly because I had an interest in history. Uh, you know, if you understand, if you want things to change and you understand history, then you understand that to do that, you need to build large political movements and organise lots of people to build sort of large collective power, whatever you're trying to do.

And, and people say that that is what you've always been good at, that that is your particular skill.

And, and people say that that is what you've always been good at, that that is your particular skill.

Organising.

Organising.

Organising.

Organising.

Yeah. Yeah. It's something that's a skill that I developed through, you know, organising student like little movements at, at university and then working briefly working as an organiser for a trade union. And um, got thrust very early into running a student election campaign when I'd no, absolutely no idea what I was doing, um, and had to learn on the run. We ended up winning that, uh, it was a campaign that no one thought we could win. And so they just gave it to me because I was very junior.

Yeah. Yeah. It's something that's a skill that I developed through, you know, organising student like little movements at, at university and then working briefly working as an organiser for a trade union. And um, got thrust very early into running a student election campaign when I'd no, absolutely no idea what I was doing, um, and had to learn on the run. We ended up winning that, uh, it was a campaign that no one thought we could win. And so they just gave it to me because I was very junior.

Was this the one to take control of.

Was this the one to take control of.

The student union? The student.

The student union? The student.

The liberals, young liberals, young.

The liberals, young liberals, young.

Liberals that had been in power for seven years and we had this sort of broad. Um, unholy coalition of sort of like labor left and labor, right, and a bunch of lefty independents. Um, and I was put in charge of running it. And, uh, we won quite in a way, unexpectedly. And so did that and, uh, work my way through uni studying history. And I think that developed my politics a lot more. And understanding the history in particular the history of the 20th century, uh, and, you know, both looking at or the emergence of organized labor and sort of like social democratic and democratic socialist politics through that period and, and its defeat, ultimate defeat, uh, and, uh, why they were defeated and what the consequences were. And the more I understood that history and in particular the history of Australia, I think that helped provided the foundation for my disillusionment with the Labor Party. Um, and it was later that that disillusionment grew a lot stronger.

Liberals that had been in power for seven years and we had this sort of broad. Um, unholy coalition of sort of like labor left and labor, right, and a bunch of lefty independents. Um, and I was put in charge of running it. And, uh, we won quite in a way, unexpectedly. And so did that and, uh, work my way through uni studying history. And I think that developed my politics a lot more. And understanding the history in particular the history of the 20th century, uh, and, you know, both looking at or the emergence of organized labor and sort of like social democratic and democratic socialist politics through that period and, and its defeat, ultimate defeat, uh, and, uh, why they were defeated and what the consequences were. And the more I understood that history and in particular the history of Australia, I think that helped provided the foundation for my disillusionment with the Labor Party. Um, and it was later that that disillusionment grew a lot stronger.

So what prompted you to quit the party?

So what prompted you to quit the party?

A few things. You know, you joined and I didn't agree with a lot of the politics of the Labour Party even back then. But, you know, the argument was, well, you could change it from the inside. Like we just need more good people in there and, uh. Quit as the Labour government was a few things. Cutting the single parents pension.

A few things. You know, you joined and I didn't agree with a lot of the politics of the Labour Party even back then. But, you know, the argument was, well, you could change it from the inside. Like we just need more good people in there and, uh. Quit as the Labour government was a few things. Cutting the single parents pension.

This was Julia Gillard's government.

This was Julia Gillard's government.

Yeah. Unfortunately, on the same day that she delivered the misogyny speech. Oh, really? Yeah. Um, was it that day she delivered that and then the labor government cut the single parents pension. And that pushed tens of thousands of women into homelessness. Like it was a devastating, cruel, cruel choice to make with not much financial gain like beggars belief that they did it. And opening reopening Manus and Nauru. Uh.

Yeah. Unfortunately, on the same day that she delivered the misogyny speech. Oh, really? Yeah. Um, was it that day she delivered that and then the labor government cut the single parents pension. And that pushed tens of thousands of women into homelessness. Like it was a devastating, cruel, cruel choice to make with not much financial gain like beggars belief that they did it. And opening reopening Manus and Nauru. Uh.

And detention.

And detention.

That's right. The detention centres on Manus and Nauru and lurching to the right on refugees. And, you know, you just sort of see that rather than the party shifting in the right direction. It was sort of from my perspective, it was clear that it was sort of lurching further and further to the right. And that was very disillusioning. And more broadly, it was became clear it was not possible to change labor from the inside. The way that party is structured is actually what it ends up doing, is changing you. And, you know, if you want to get involved, it demands a level of compromise and a level of giving up your principles. Um, that ends up changing the way people think about politics. And I just didn't want to do that. And I left, and I remember I was working in a call centre, uh, in a trade union at the time. So you would just call my job was calling members and convince who had resigned and convincing them not to resign, which was a really challenging. Uh, yeah. It was not a fun job. Um, and I remember I'd go into work and a Labour Party renewal membership form would be left on my desk, and I just refused to sign it. Uh, and then having, like, a senior organizer sit me down and try to convince me to stay, um, and my point to them, I still remember this conversation, actually. They were like, oh, I was like, well, say overnight, you know, the right people at the sort of progressive end of the Labour Party takes over the party overnight, you know, in every state and federal level. Well, what actually changes, like what policies change, what's the new platform, what's the new vision. And there was some asinine answer like, oh, well, that's why we need people like you in the party, Max, which you know, is an attempt at flattery, but it just sounds completely pathetic like that. That's relying on some random student in a call centre is not how you build a political movement. Uh, and at that point, I was like, well, I'm definitely leaving.

That's right. The detention centres on Manus and Nauru and lurching to the right on refugees. And, you know, you just sort of see that rather than the party shifting in the right direction. It was sort of from my perspective, it was clear that it was sort of lurching further and further to the right. And that was very disillusioning. And more broadly, it was became clear it was not possible to change labor from the inside. The way that party is structured is actually what it ends up doing, is changing you. And, you know, if you want to get involved, it demands a level of compromise and a level of giving up your principles. Um, that ends up changing the way people think about politics. And I just didn't want to do that. And I left, and I remember I was working in a call centre, uh, in a trade union at the time. So you would just call my job was calling members and convince who had resigned and convincing them not to resign, which was a really challenging. Uh, yeah. It was not a fun job. Um, and I remember I'd go into work and a Labour Party renewal membership form would be left on my desk, and I just refused to sign it. Uh, and then having, like, a senior organizer sit me down and try to convince me to stay, um, and my point to them, I still remember this conversation, actually. They were like, oh, I was like, well, say overnight, you know, the right people at the sort of progressive end of the Labour Party takes over the party overnight, you know, in every state and federal level. Well, what actually changes, like what policies change, what's the new platform, what's the new vision. And there was some asinine answer like, oh, well, that's why we need people like you in the party, Max, which you know, is an attempt at flattery, but it just sounds completely pathetic like that. That's relying on some random student in a call centre is not how you build a political movement. Uh, and at that point, I was like, well, I'm definitely leaving.

And you and you drifted for a while. You didn't you didn't immediately think, okay, I'm going to leave straight into the greens. And in fact, you had a negative impression of the greens, I think I did.

And you and you drifted for a while. You didn't you didn't immediately think, okay, I'm going to leave straight into the greens. And in fact, you had a negative impression of the greens, I think I did.

Yeah, you're certainly inculcated with that being in the Labor Party. Um, there's a lot of hatred of the Greens in the Labor Party. Uh, and it's, um, instilled in people at a young age. More broadly, I was just disillusioned with electoral politics. Like, I just didn't think it was going to achieve much and went and worked as an organizer in the NTAs, the national tertiary education Union, which was.

Yeah, you're certainly inculcated with that being in the Labor Party. Um, there's a lot of hatred of the Greens in the Labor Party. Uh, and it's, um, instilled in people at a young age. More broadly, I was just disillusioned with electoral politics. Like, I just didn't think it was going to achieve much and went and worked as an organizer in the NTAs, the national tertiary education Union, which was.

Not labor or.

Not labor or.

Not labor aligned. And actually, you didn't have to be a member of the Labor Party to work for them, which is a, um, novel experience for a trade union. And when in finished, my history honours in Indonesian history. And my plan was, uh, either to go and teach history in some way or go and do my PhD in history and then go and lecture on it and thought that would be a good pathway. Uh, and, um, by fluke, I got involved in the greens.

Not labor aligned. And actually, you didn't have to be a member of the Labor Party to work for them, which is a, um, novel experience for a trade union. And when in finished, my history honours in Indonesian history. And my plan was, uh, either to go and teach history in some way or go and do my PhD in history and then go and lecture on it and thought that would be a good pathway. Uh, and, um, by fluke, I got involved in the greens.

And didn't your the person who is going to be your PhD supervisor. Um, laugh when you said you thought you'd be an academic.

And didn't your the person who is going to be your PhD supervisor. Um, laugh when you said you thought you'd be an academic.

Yeah. He did. He was like, yeah, good luck with that. You're not going to do that.

Yeah. He did. He was like, yeah, good luck with that. You're not going to do that.

You're going to be you're going to.

You're going to be you're going to.

He was like, I think you'll probably I think I still remember something like, well, I'm pretty sure you're going to you're not going to stay away from organizing and and like political work. Uh, yeah. Which still sticks with six with me. He, um. But my involvement in the greens was completely random. I, um. Johno, um, who I had done some organising work with at uni.

He was like, I think you'll probably I think I still remember something like, well, I'm pretty sure you're going to you're not going to stay away from organizing and and like political work. Uh, yeah. Which still sticks with six with me. He, um. But my involvement in the greens was completely random. I, um. Johno, um, who I had done some organising work with at uni.

This is johno. Yeah. Sriranganathan.

This is johno. Yeah. Sriranganathan.

That's right. Yes. Um, he first approached me to help run his state campaign because he was going to run in the seat of South Brisbane for the Greens. Uh, and he's like, oh, you should come and manage that campaign for me. Uh, and I said he was completely mad and he had no chance of winning and hahaha, goodbye. And then, very persistent, his partner Anna came back and after that campaign, they did lose. And he was like, well, I'm going to run for council now. Um, in the seat of the Gabba. Can you manage that campaign? And I was like, you know what? Why not give it a go? And so went and managed that campaign and, um, we won. And was the first ever council seat the Greens had run in Queensland. In fact the first seat the Greens had ever won in Queensland outside of the Senate seat that Larissa won in 2010.

That's right. Yes. Um, he first approached me to help run his state campaign because he was going to run in the seat of South Brisbane for the Greens. Uh, and he's like, oh, you should come and manage that campaign for me. Uh, and I said he was completely mad and he had no chance of winning and hahaha, goodbye. And then, very persistent, his partner Anna came back and after that campaign, they did lose. And he was like, well, I'm going to run for council now. Um, in the seat of the Gabba. Can you manage that campaign? And I was like, you know what? Why not give it a go? And so went and managed that campaign and, um, we won. And was the first ever council seat the Greens had run in Queensland. In fact the first seat the Greens had ever won in Queensland outside of the Senate seat that Larissa won in 2010.

Uh, Larissa Waters.

Uh, Larissa Waters.

That's right. Yeah. And the rest is history, I suppose. Like, um, got more involved in the Greens. Um, joined the party halfway through running that campaign. At first I was running that campaign and I wasn't a member of the Greens. Um, and it gave me a lot of hope because these are the seats, by the way, where they're about the size of a state electorates. It's about 20 to 30,000 people in them. We had a starting budget. We ended up the overall overall budget of that campaign was probably about $14,000. And I worked completely unpaid the entire time. So I was, uh, and, uh, you know, competing where there's hundreds of budgets of hundreds of thousands, you know, labor and the liberals will spend millions of dollars on council campaigns. Um, and we had this premise, well, if we can organize enough people to knock on enough doors and build this sort of community, grassroots campaign where we can confront that monetary power and win, and we did. And that that was a transformative moment for me and my conception of politics and political organizing and the opportunity that we had and developed a lot of sort of the political strategy thinking from there.

That's right. Yeah. And the rest is history, I suppose. Like, um, got more involved in the Greens. Um, joined the party halfway through running that campaign. At first I was running that campaign and I wasn't a member of the Greens. Um, and it gave me a lot of hope because these are the seats, by the way, where they're about the size of a state electorates. It's about 20 to 30,000 people in them. We had a starting budget. We ended up the overall overall budget of that campaign was probably about $14,000. And I worked completely unpaid the entire time. So I was, uh, and, uh, you know, competing where there's hundreds of budgets of hundreds of thousands, you know, labor and the liberals will spend millions of dollars on council campaigns. Um, and we had this premise, well, if we can organize enough people to knock on enough doors and build this sort of community, grassroots campaign where we can confront that monetary power and win, and we did. And that that was a transformative moment for me and my conception of politics and political organizing and the opportunity that we had and developed a lot of sort of the political strategy thinking from there.

Max, thank you very much for being on the podcast.

Max, thank you very much for being on the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me.

Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age and if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Che Wong. Technical assistance from Debbie Harrington. Editing from Konrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.

Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age and if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Che Wong. Technical assistance from Debbie Harrington. Editing from Konrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.