Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to Mark Manson, author of the international bestseller The Subtle Art of Not Giving an F. Manson, who is also a prolific speaker and blogger, discusses how the mantra of relentless positivity, which drives so much of the self-help industry, is full of pitfalls. He explains how negative emotions have a purpose to drive us to do something, and why the willingness to look like an idiot occasionally guards against self-entitlement and hosting this conversation about everything from why so much self-help advice gets it wrong to dealing with Cyberstalkers is good weekend deputy editor Greg Callahan.

Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to Mark Manson, author of the international bestseller The Subtle Art of Not Giving an F. Manson, who is also a prolific speaker and blogger, discusses how the mantra of relentless positivity, which drives so much of the self-help industry, is full of pitfalls. He explains how negative emotions have a purpose to drive us to do something, and why the willingness to look like an idiot occasionally guards against self-entitlement and hosting this conversation about everything from why so much self-help advice gets it wrong to dealing with Cyberstalkers is good weekend deputy editor Greg Callahan.

Thank you, Conrad, and welcome Mark.

Thank you, Conrad, and welcome Mark.

Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Now, your best selling book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F, was the number one non-fiction book on Amazon in 2017. Gratifyingly, I might say ahead of JD Vance memoir Hillbilly Elegy, which was number two. Why do you think your book struck such a chord?

Now, your best selling book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F, was the number one non-fiction book on Amazon in 2017. Gratifyingly, I might say ahead of JD Vance memoir Hillbilly Elegy, which was number two. Why do you think your book struck such a chord?

I think it was the first self-help book to speak to the realities of living in the social media age, of just being bombarded by so much information, so much noise, so much craziness in the world, and the struggle that one goes through in trying to sift through all of that stimulation and also prioritize what's actually worth paying attention to and caring about and what's what's not.

I think it was the first self-help book to speak to the realities of living in the social media age, of just being bombarded by so much information, so much noise, so much craziness in the world, and the struggle that one goes through in trying to sift through all of that stimulation and also prioritize what's actually worth paying attention to and caring about and what's what's not.

Yeah, pretty much the entire self-help industry is built around urging us to remain positive all the time. We're told that a positive attitude is a fundamental prerequisite for financial and emotional success. Being relentlessly positive is not just exhausting, in my view, but it's kind of in defiance of day to day reality. And that's something that sort of resonates in your book, isn't it? Your books, I should say.

Yeah, pretty much the entire self-help industry is built around urging us to remain positive all the time. We're told that a positive attitude is a fundamental prerequisite for financial and emotional success. Being relentlessly positive is not just exhausting, in my view, but it's kind of in defiance of day to day reality. And that's something that sort of resonates in your book, isn't it? Your books, I should say.

Yeah. I personally think that positive thinking is a little bit overrated. You know, I do think it is good to have a bias towards action and a belief in oneself, like a general optimism about life. But I think ultimately it's better to think realistic, which is that realistically, a certain percentage of everybody's life is going to going to be really challenging and it's going to kind of suck. So I just think we need to be honest about that and not necessarily see that as a bad thing. Like it's if you're going through a hard time that's not a failure or a, you know, anything to be ashamed of. It's just it's just part of life. It's just something that we all go through.

Yeah. I personally think that positive thinking is a little bit overrated. You know, I do think it is good to have a bias towards action and a belief in oneself, like a general optimism about life. But I think ultimately it's better to think realistic, which is that realistically, a certain percentage of everybody's life is going to going to be really challenging and it's going to kind of suck. So I just think we need to be honest about that and not necessarily see that as a bad thing. Like it's if you're going through a hard time that's not a failure or a, you know, anything to be ashamed of. It's just it's just part of life. It's just something that we all go through.

And you say in your books that that negativity or being being realistic at times, in effect, can lead to positivity.

And you say in your books that that negativity or being being realistic at times, in effect, can lead to positivity.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can't learn from your mistakes or adjust to your failures if you're not willing to to recognize what's gone, gone wrong in your life. I mean, it's like things hurt for a reason. You're not supposed to do them anymore. So if you just, like, pretend like nothing hurts, you're not going to learn the lesson.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can't learn from your mistakes or adjust to your failures if you're not willing to to recognize what's gone, gone wrong in your life. I mean, it's like things hurt for a reason. You're not supposed to do them anymore. So if you just, like, pretend like nothing hurts, you're not going to learn the lesson.

The mantra of positivity seems so embedded in the American dream, though, doesn't it? You work hard enough. You never give up. You always remain positive. And finally you'll succeed. It worked for people like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Arnie had sort of a mantra of positivity from the very start, from the day he put his foot on American soil. But but there are obviously a lot of for most of us, there are a lot of other factors come into play. Not the least luck, I would add.

The mantra of positivity seems so embedded in the American dream, though, doesn't it? You work hard enough. You never give up. You always remain positive. And finally you'll succeed. It worked for people like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Arnie had sort of a mantra of positivity from the very start, from the day he put his foot on American soil. But but there are obviously a lot of for most of us, there are a lot of other factors come into play. Not the least luck, I would add.

Yeah, I mean absolutely. I mean, it I think I think the United States developed a culture around positivity, kind of a delusional positivity just because it was, you know, geographically, historically, economically, it was a place of kind of infinite economic opportunity for people who came here. And that was true for much of its history. So to me, it makes sense that, you know, you develop a culture around, like, if you want something, you just go, go get it, go, go and do it. And I think there's a lot of great things to that attitude. But it's also it's important to again, be realistic and understand that there are other factors that come into play. That life is complicated, that not everything goes the way you expect or intend it to, and and then being willing to learn and adjust as necessary.

Yeah, I mean absolutely. I mean, it I think I think the United States developed a culture around positivity, kind of a delusional positivity just because it was, you know, geographically, historically, economically, it was a place of kind of infinite economic opportunity for people who came here. And that was true for much of its history. So to me, it makes sense that, you know, you develop a culture around, like, if you want something, you just go, go get it, go, go and do it. And I think there's a lot of great things to that attitude. But it's also it's important to again, be realistic and understand that there are other factors that come into play. That life is complicated, that not everything goes the way you expect or intend it to, and and then being willing to learn and adjust as necessary.

Yeah. One of the insightful things you point out in the book that resonated with me in particular is that people are more afraid of public humiliation than they are of death. And perhaps this is oversharing, but about 15 years ago, I went through a lot of stress at work, and I had a recurring nightmare of standing naked in the lobby of this workplace. And, um, it spoke to me, when I think about it, of my extreme stress at that time. But it does relate to exactly what you've written about. And that is this is our biggest fear, isn't it? This sort of shame, this public humiliation, being embarrassed, making a fool of ourselves?

Yeah. One of the insightful things you point out in the book that resonated with me in particular is that people are more afraid of public humiliation than they are of death. And perhaps this is oversharing, but about 15 years ago, I went through a lot of stress at work, and I had a recurring nightmare of standing naked in the lobby of this workplace. And, um, it spoke to me, when I think about it, of my extreme stress at that time. But it does relate to exactly what you've written about. And that is this is our biggest fear, isn't it? This sort of shame, this public humiliation, being embarrassed, making a fool of ourselves?

Yeah, I think many, many people are controlled by that fear. It's it dictates their life to them.

Yeah, I think many, many people are controlled by that fear. It's it dictates their life to them.

So. So why do we care so much about what other people think of us?

So. So why do we care so much about what other people think of us?

Well, if you want kind of the, the, the boring scientific reason, you know, evolutionarily speaking, most of humanity's history was lived in small tribes and small groups. And so if you, uh, humiliated yourself in front of the tribe and you were rejected from the tribe, that was basically the same thing as death. Uh, if you didn't have the tribe to to help support you, you know, you wouldn't last long in the caveman days. So I think we evolutionarily adopted this, uh, intense fear and phobia of the disapproval of others and not fitting in and not being liked by the people around us. But like many things, um, there's kind of a mismatch. There's, like an evolutionary, evolutionary mismatch between, uh, kind of like our hardwired psychology and what's actually very adaptive in the modern world. Like we live in a modern world now where, you know, if you humiliate yourself, it's it's not the end of the world, like your life is going to go on. You probably learned from the experience. You can maybe, you know, get a get a different job, you know, go work in a different building and, uh, uh, you know, take things from there.

Well, if you want kind of the, the, the boring scientific reason, you know, evolutionarily speaking, most of humanity's history was lived in small tribes and small groups. And so if you, uh, humiliated yourself in front of the tribe and you were rejected from the tribe, that was basically the same thing as death. Uh, if you didn't have the tribe to to help support you, you know, you wouldn't last long in the caveman days. So I think we evolutionarily adopted this, uh, intense fear and phobia of the disapproval of others and not fitting in and not being liked by the people around us. But like many things, um, there's kind of a mismatch. There's, like an evolutionary, evolutionary mismatch between, uh, kind of like our hardwired psychology and what's actually very adaptive in the modern world. Like we live in a modern world now where, you know, if you humiliate yourself, it's it's not the end of the world, like your life is going to go on. You probably learned from the experience. You can maybe, you know, get a get a different job, you know, go work in a different building and, uh, uh, you know, take things from there.

And that's exactly what I did. Mark. Yeah. Um, you also, you also say that the willingness to, um, you know, look like an idiot and, and embarrass yourself is the bedrock of not giving up f. And I think of that video where you dressed up as a chicken in public.

And that's exactly what I did. Mark. Yeah. Um, you also, you also say that the willingness to, um, you know, look like an idiot and, and embarrass yourself is the bedrock of not giving up f. And I think of that video where you dressed up as a chicken in public.

Didn't care. But the problem is, the idea by itself is not sufficient. You have to get out into the world and experience it. You have to get out and challenge your own spotlight effect. Now, does that mean you have to put on a chicken suit and walk down the Venice boardwalk? No, of course not. But it does mean you have to do something. You have to challenge yourself. You have to put yourself in the public and into uncomfortable situations and prove to yourself.

Didn't care. But the problem is, the idea by itself is not sufficient. You have to get out into the world and experience it. You have to get out and challenge your own spotlight effect. Now, does that mean you have to put on a chicken suit and walk down the Venice boardwalk? No, of course not. But it does mean you have to do something. You have to challenge yourself. You have to put yourself in the public and into uncomfortable situations and prove to yourself.

I mean, that takes cojones, mate, I've got to say so.

I mean, that takes cojones, mate, I've got to say so.

No, I did not just just dress like a chicken, but jumped out of a plane dressed as a chicken.

No, I did not just just dress like a chicken, but jumped out of a plane dressed as a chicken.

That's right.

That's right.

Yes, I wanted to prove that chickens can fly. That was. That was the plan all along? No. It's fun. You know, one of the things it. You know, it's really fun. I'm at a point in my career now where, um, I feel very compelled to kind of just give back to my fans and my audience. And one of the things that that's been really inspiring the past couple of years is, uh, finding fans who are struggling with some sort of issue or who give way too many F's and, uh, actually fly out and meet them and, and kind of force them to do ridiculous and zany things to, to overcome those fears. And so we did a YouTube video last year. We had a guy who was just way caught up, caught up in his own head, always worrying about what other people think. And we had him do a bunch of embarrassing things in public to help him get over his anxieties and over his fears. But, you know, like as any good teacher or coach, you don't want to force somebody to do something that you're not willing to do yourself. So ultimately, I put on the chicken suit and jumped out of the plane as well.

Yes, I wanted to prove that chickens can fly. That was. That was the plan all along? No. It's fun. You know, one of the things it. You know, it's really fun. I'm at a point in my career now where, um, I feel very compelled to kind of just give back to my fans and my audience. And one of the things that that's been really inspiring the past couple of years is, uh, finding fans who are struggling with some sort of issue or who give way too many F's and, uh, actually fly out and meet them and, and kind of force them to do ridiculous and zany things to, to overcome those fears. And so we did a YouTube video last year. We had a guy who was just way caught up, caught up in his own head, always worrying about what other people think. And we had him do a bunch of embarrassing things in public to help him get over his anxieties and over his fears. But, you know, like as any good teacher or coach, you don't want to force somebody to do something that you're not willing to do yourself. So ultimately, I put on the chicken suit and jumped out of the plane as well.

And you don't appear to have any fear of heights. Quite the contrary. In fact, you seem to enjoy being in a kind of vertigo nightmare, if you like.

And you don't appear to have any fear of heights. Quite the contrary. In fact, you seem to enjoy being in a kind of vertigo nightmare, if you like.

Yeah, there's there's a scene in the book where I stand at the edge of a cliff. Um, I, I, I think at some point in my early life, I became addicted to confronting fear. And, you know, initially I confronted fears just out of personal development and trying to free myself from the prison of my own fears. But, uh, I think as I did it more, I became a little bit hooked on it. And, um, so I've actually strangely become a bit of a thrill seeker. Uh, the older I've gotten and I get, like, a rush from it, I don't know, it's like an adrenaline thing.

Yeah, there's there's a scene in the book where I stand at the edge of a cliff. Um, I, I, I think at some point in my early life, I became addicted to confronting fear. And, you know, initially I confronted fears just out of personal development and trying to free myself from the prison of my own fears. But, uh, I think as I did it more, I became a little bit hooked on it. And, um, so I've actually strangely become a bit of a thrill seeker. Uh, the older I've gotten and I get, like, a rush from it, I don't know, it's like an adrenaline thing.

Isn't that fantastic? Now, another theme in your book that in the subtle art that is that really resonated with me too, is this sense of entitlement. And it seems to me that we're living in the age of entitlement now. I think I suspect it's being fueled by social media, um, which you've already pointed out yourself via algorithms that make you feel special, that you're the center of attention, that life is only full of the possibility of positive experiences. Um, has social media fed into this age of entitlement in your view?

Isn't that fantastic? Now, another theme in your book that in the subtle art that is that really resonated with me too, is this sense of entitlement. And it seems to me that we're living in the age of entitlement now. I think I suspect it's being fueled by social media, um, which you've already pointed out yourself via algorithms that make you feel special, that you're the center of attention, that life is only full of the possibility of positive experiences. Um, has social media fed into this age of entitlement in your view?

I yes, but I wouldn't stop at social media. I would say it's it's mass media in general. I would say it's, uh, to a certain extent. Technology in general. I would say it's kind of, um, a world of convenience. Like everything has been optimized to make things as convenient as possible and people as comfortable as possible. And don't get me wrong, I think convenience and comfort is good. Like, I don't think people should suffer unnecessarily. But I think what we're discovering as a society is that there's a certain amount of friction in life that's optimal. Like, you probably shouldn't be able to hear and see everything you already believe reflected back to you. You shouldn't necessarily be able to get everything you want from a click of a button on your phone whenever you want it. There's a certain like you lose. There's there's a friction in life that actually forces you to invest in things and care about things and find meaning in things. And I think a lot of what we're struggling with as a society in terms of loneliness, public health issues, um, mental health issues, entitlement, uh, it kind of comes it comes back to this, this society of, of constant convenience and pleasure. So I, I try to intentionally inject a little bit of friction into my own life, and I encourage others to do the same.

I yes, but I wouldn't stop at social media. I would say it's it's mass media in general. I would say it's, uh, to a certain extent. Technology in general. I would say it's kind of, um, a world of convenience. Like everything has been optimized to make things as convenient as possible and people as comfortable as possible. And don't get me wrong, I think convenience and comfort is good. Like, I don't think people should suffer unnecessarily. But I think what we're discovering as a society is that there's a certain amount of friction in life that's optimal. Like, you probably shouldn't be able to hear and see everything you already believe reflected back to you. You shouldn't necessarily be able to get everything you want from a click of a button on your phone whenever you want it. There's a certain like you lose. There's there's a friction in life that actually forces you to invest in things and care about things and find meaning in things. And I think a lot of what we're struggling with as a society in terms of loneliness, public health issues, um, mental health issues, entitlement, uh, it kind of comes it comes back to this, this society of, of constant convenience and pleasure. So I, I try to intentionally inject a little bit of friction into my own life, and I encourage others to do the same.

Yes. You actually say in one of your videos and also in the subtle art, that the willingness to make sacrifices is a is a pretty good guard against entitlement. Totally. What sort of sacrifices? What do you think Say, for argument's sake, doing, volunteering or, um, being being present for friends and not just family is is part of that process of of guarding against entitlement?

Yes. You actually say in one of your videos and also in the subtle art, that the willingness to make sacrifices is a is a pretty good guard against entitlement. Totally. What sort of sacrifices? What do you think Say, for argument's sake, doing, volunteering or, um, being being present for friends and not just family is is part of that process of of guarding against entitlement?

I think I yes, and I, and I think this is the sort of thing it exists on many dimensions. Right. So it's it's getting involved in the community, making time for friends and loved ones, you know, making simple sacrifices in your own life for the sake of your own health. You know, giving up alcohol, giving up sugar, um, not staying out till 4 or 5 in the morning on a Tuesday night like these. These are all simple things of simple practices of of self-discipline or simple self-denial that like, ultimately, it's a form of, uh, of investment, of building something important and meaningful in the long run. And I just I worry that as everything in our lives, from media to retail to, uh, you know, remote work and our jobs at home and everything, the more everything just kind of becomes revolves around instant gratification, the more we we lose those muscles, those sacrifice muscles, the the the self-denial muscles that, that, um, add, add a sense of depth and profundity to life.

I think I yes, and I, and I think this is the sort of thing it exists on many dimensions. Right. So it's it's getting involved in the community, making time for friends and loved ones, you know, making simple sacrifices in your own life for the sake of your own health. You know, giving up alcohol, giving up sugar, um, not staying out till 4 or 5 in the morning on a Tuesday night like these. These are all simple things of simple practices of of self-discipline or simple self-denial that like, ultimately, it's a form of, uh, of investment, of building something important and meaningful in the long run. And I just I worry that as everything in our lives, from media to retail to, uh, you know, remote work and our jobs at home and everything, the more everything just kind of becomes revolves around instant gratification, the more we we lose those muscles, those sacrifice muscles, the the the self-denial muscles that, that, um, add, add a sense of depth and profundity to life.

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I did a small piece earlier this year about sort of what I call the kind of, um, uh, the phone drones at the gym where I go to the people who seem to spend half their workout on their phones scrolling through social media. And it not only means that they're hogging equipment at the gym, but it means that. Why are they getting up at 5:00 or 530 in the morning? If they're just going to scroll through social media at the gym? And it is. You have so nailed this very problem in society that it's not just it's not distraction, it's about this gratification issue. And even when we're trying to look after ourselves, exercise even that's been contaminated now.

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I did a small piece earlier this year about sort of what I call the kind of, um, uh, the phone drones at the gym where I go to the people who seem to spend half their workout on their phones scrolling through social media. And it not only means that they're hogging equipment at the gym, but it means that. Why are they getting up at 5:00 or 530 in the morning? If they're just going to scroll through social media at the gym? And it is. You have so nailed this very problem in society that it's not just it's not distraction, it's about this gratification issue. And even when we're trying to look after ourselves, exercise even that's been contaminated now.

It's it's it's so omnipresent, you know, it's it's hard to get away from it. And, um, I, I really think, you know, I wrote a piece a number of years ago, I called it the Attention Diet. Um, and I think a really useful analogy or metaphor for this is, you know, probably 50 or 60 years ago we reached a point of, of food abundance, and we could manufacture through industrial processes, more food than everybody needed. And so suddenly we had this great abundance of you go to the supermarket and there's 28 different types of potato chips, and you can get 15 different types of frozen pizzas, and there's eight different brands of milk. And, you know, so it's just this, this abundance. And it's around that same time that we start to see the physical health crisis begin. Obesity epidemic and heart disease and diabetes and all these things that that have been happening. And I think it took a couple decades. But as a culture, we we adjusted and learned that like, hey, you have to you can't just go eat whatever you want. It's in a world of food abundance. You have to be very conscientious and careful about what choices you're making. And, um, you know, really check your own impulses and not give in to, to to just like your first choice all the time to instant gratification every time I think the same thing is happening with information. It's the same way you have to occasionally go on a food diet to to get your keep your physical health in order. I think we have to go on information diets to keep our mental health in order to keep to to check our own personal impulses and not give in to instant gratification all the time.

It's it's it's so omnipresent, you know, it's it's hard to get away from it. And, um, I, I really think, you know, I wrote a piece a number of years ago, I called it the Attention Diet. Um, and I think a really useful analogy or metaphor for this is, you know, probably 50 or 60 years ago we reached a point of, of food abundance, and we could manufacture through industrial processes, more food than everybody needed. And so suddenly we had this great abundance of you go to the supermarket and there's 28 different types of potato chips, and you can get 15 different types of frozen pizzas, and there's eight different brands of milk. And, you know, so it's just this, this abundance. And it's around that same time that we start to see the physical health crisis begin. Obesity epidemic and heart disease and diabetes and all these things that that have been happening. And I think it took a couple decades. But as a culture, we we adjusted and learned that like, hey, you have to you can't just go eat whatever you want. It's in a world of food abundance. You have to be very conscientious and careful about what choices you're making. And, um, you know, really check your own impulses and not give in to, to to just like your first choice all the time to instant gratification every time I think the same thing is happening with information. It's the same way you have to occasionally go on a food diet to to get your keep your physical health in order. I think we have to go on information diets to keep our mental health in order to keep to to check our own personal impulses and not give in to instant gratification all the time.

It's interesting you talk about the food abundance and how that emerged because you battled with with being overweight yourself in your teens and right through your 20s. And then in your mid 30s, you found yourself borderline obese. So you're a bit of a poster boy for makeovers yourself, because here you are, nice and and slim and very fit looking. So how have you done it over the past few years? How have you turned yourself from this overweight person who was, um, you know, pre-diabetic? I think you've said, how did you turn yourself into this lean fighting machine that you are now?

It's interesting you talk about the food abundance and how that emerged because you battled with with being overweight yourself in your teens and right through your 20s. And then in your mid 30s, you found yourself borderline obese. So you're a bit of a poster boy for makeovers yourself, because here you are, nice and and slim and very fit looking. So how have you done it over the past few years? How have you turned yourself from this overweight person who was, um, you know, pre-diabetic? I think you've said, how did you turn yourself into this lean fighting machine that you are now?

Well, it was a long process, and I'll just give a quick little history. You know, I, I think I pride like I exist in the self-help industry. And of course, every person in self-help, you're supposed to be, you know, get up at 4 a.m. and go do deadlifts at the gym and go run eight miles and and eat a drink, a green smoothie and all this stuff. I never did that. And I like I kind of wore it as a badge of honor, you know, it's like while while the other guy is getting up at 4 a.m., I'm coming back from the party and I'm probably hungover. And, um, so for a long time I took a little bit of pride in that, but it caught up with me. And by the age of 35, I started running into some pretty significant health problems. And I've got I've got some there's some health issues that run in my family. And so it was a little bit of a wake up call of like, I've got to get this together. Um, but it's been a long process, and it's what I have learned is that it's not about the, you know, signing up for the latest program or downloading the right fitness app or, um, finding the perfect workout in a fitness magazine or whatever. It's it's like really boring, basic lifestyle changes, and there's a whole psychological process that comes along with it, which is just simply learning to not lie to yourself. And I think to tie this back into the instant gratification thing and the the managing your own impulses thing, I think we when it comes to, uh, our impulsive behaviors, be it social media or eating too much ice cream. We are experts at lying to ourselves. We're experts at justifying to ourselves. We're we're experts at saying to ourselves while we're sitting in the gym, you know, scrolling Instagram for 20 minutes between sets saying like, oh, I'm not spending that much time, you know, it's just a few minutes. Whereas like, no, you're actually spending like half, half your time in the gym on the stupid phone, right. So it's there's like an honest conversation that needs to happen with yourself. And this comes back into the tied into the positive thinking thing. You know, you can't delude yourself with positive thinking. You have to be real and you have to be like, this is a problem. I have a problem. I'm not trustworthy with this device. I'm not trustworthy with my food choices like I need, I need guardrails, I need, I need to be like, treated like a child for a certain amount of time until I develop the correct habits and better and better, uh, behaviors that, uh, that I can, you know, you can take the training wheels off. So for me, it was a very long process. There were a bunch of, you know, it was an up and down thing, but, um, you know, over the course of it's been about five years, and, uh, I've lost probably about 25 kilos in that time, uh, and kept it off. And it's, it's I feel great. It's been great. But I mean, being honest is one of the hardest things I've ever done.

Well, it was a long process, and I'll just give a quick little history. You know, I, I think I pride like I exist in the self-help industry. And of course, every person in self-help, you're supposed to be, you know, get up at 4 a.m. and go do deadlifts at the gym and go run eight miles and and eat a drink, a green smoothie and all this stuff. I never did that. And I like I kind of wore it as a badge of honor, you know, it's like while while the other guy is getting up at 4 a.m., I'm coming back from the party and I'm probably hungover. And, um, so for a long time I took a little bit of pride in that, but it caught up with me. And by the age of 35, I started running into some pretty significant health problems. And I've got I've got some there's some health issues that run in my family. And so it was a little bit of a wake up call of like, I've got to get this together. Um, but it's been a long process, and it's what I have learned is that it's not about the, you know, signing up for the latest program or downloading the right fitness app or, um, finding the perfect workout in a fitness magazine or whatever. It's it's like really boring, basic lifestyle changes, and there's a whole psychological process that comes along with it, which is just simply learning to not lie to yourself. And I think to tie this back into the instant gratification thing and the the managing your own impulses thing, I think we when it comes to, uh, our impulsive behaviors, be it social media or eating too much ice cream. We are experts at lying to ourselves. We're experts at justifying to ourselves. We're we're experts at saying to ourselves while we're sitting in the gym, you know, scrolling Instagram for 20 minutes between sets saying like, oh, I'm not spending that much time, you know, it's just a few minutes. Whereas like, no, you're actually spending like half, half your time in the gym on the stupid phone, right. So it's there's like an honest conversation that needs to happen with yourself. And this comes back into the tied into the positive thinking thing. You know, you can't delude yourself with positive thinking. You have to be real and you have to be like, this is a problem. I have a problem. I'm not trustworthy with this device. I'm not trustworthy with my food choices like I need, I need guardrails, I need, I need to be like, treated like a child for a certain amount of time until I develop the correct habits and better and better, uh, behaviors that, uh, that I can, you know, you can take the training wheels off. So for me, it was a very long process. There were a bunch of, you know, it was an up and down thing, but, um, you know, over the course of it's been about five years, and, uh, I've lost probably about 25 kilos in that time, uh, and kept it off. And it's, it's I feel great. It's been great. But I mean, being honest is one of the hardest things I've ever done.

Yeah. Being honest is difficult, isn't it? Because we constantly lie to ourselves and we're quite delusional as creatures. So it's like a friend of mine who's who's quite overweight and, uh, regularly recites the tired old joke, you know, it's not the chocolate muffins. It's my allergy that's making me fat. You know, that kind of. Yeah, right. That sort of that kind of denial. It's part of a part of our lives as human beings. Now, I've got to talk about your writing style because as a journalist, a print journalist, I'm always, um, uh, you know, observant of these things, and you've got this what's been described as a pretty frank and with a dash of humour, a man to man chat style of writing. And you've you produced a video which was called Brutally Honest Advice for Young Men. And your first book, in fact, was some models attract women through honesty. Now, I haven't read that book, but I there's so much about young men that's being written at the moment. And anybody with with a son in this age bracket, it's an important subject, but we're all worried about the kind of messages that Andrew Tate and his brother have been sending to young men. What's your take on on them?

Yeah. Being honest is difficult, isn't it? Because we constantly lie to ourselves and we're quite delusional as creatures. So it's like a friend of mine who's who's quite overweight and, uh, regularly recites the tired old joke, you know, it's not the chocolate muffins. It's my allergy that's making me fat. You know, that kind of. Yeah, right. That sort of that kind of denial. It's part of a part of our lives as human beings. Now, I've got to talk about your writing style because as a journalist, a print journalist, I'm always, um, uh, you know, observant of these things, and you've got this what's been described as a pretty frank and with a dash of humour, a man to man chat style of writing. And you've you produced a video which was called Brutally Honest Advice for Young Men. And your first book, in fact, was some models attract women through honesty. Now, I haven't read that book, but I there's so much about young men that's being written at the moment. And anybody with with a son in this age bracket, it's an important subject, but we're all worried about the kind of messages that Andrew Tate and his brother have been sending to young men. What's your take on on them?

Uh, well, just.

Uh, well, just.

All around disgusted and horrified. Like, I, I started my career specifically writing for young. I started my career as a young man, writing for other young men. And as I've gotten older, my audience has branched out into kind of a wider mainstream audience. But in the last couple of years, I've noticed that there is a there seems to be a lot of Gen Z young men who are feeling lost, unheard, left behind, directionless, whatever it may be. And so I've been trying to return to some of those messages again, this time as an older man. And because I just to me, the whole Tate phenomenon, the thing, the thing that I take from it, like there's always going to be scummy men out there who are trying to sell you something or trying to to grift on you or whatever. The fact that he became so popular so fast, to me, the message is, is that there's a vacuum right now of public male role models, and it's not being filled. And so because it's not being filled with any like any sort of healthy role model, uh, it's being filled by an unhealthy role model. And so I think it is incumbent, particularly on the, on the men in my industry, to try to step up and be a healthier alternative to that. And this is it's a conversation that's been happening in private with a lot of people in my industry, and a lot of us are trying to kind of consciously step up, uh, for the exact same reason. And, um, and I feel like it is slowly having an effect, like it is getting through. But yeah, it would take was a little bit of a wake up call. I think it should be a wake up call to everybody of like, don't forget about these, these young boys, these kids, these guys like they they need somebody, they need attention. They need somebody to look up to.

All around disgusted and horrified. Like, I, I started my career specifically writing for young. I started my career as a young man, writing for other young men. And as I've gotten older, my audience has branched out into kind of a wider mainstream audience. But in the last couple of years, I've noticed that there is a there seems to be a lot of Gen Z young men who are feeling lost, unheard, left behind, directionless, whatever it may be. And so I've been trying to return to some of those messages again, this time as an older man. And because I just to me, the whole Tate phenomenon, the thing, the thing that I take from it, like there's always going to be scummy men out there who are trying to sell you something or trying to to grift on you or whatever. The fact that he became so popular so fast, to me, the message is, is that there's a vacuum right now of public male role models, and it's not being filled. And so because it's not being filled with any like any sort of healthy role model, uh, it's being filled by an unhealthy role model. And so I think it is incumbent, particularly on the, on the men in my industry, to try to step up and be a healthier alternative to that. And this is it's a conversation that's been happening in private with a lot of people in my industry, and a lot of us are trying to kind of consciously step up, uh, for the exact same reason. And, um, and I feel like it is slowly having an effect, like it is getting through. But yeah, it would take was a little bit of a wake up call. I think it should be a wake up call to everybody of like, don't forget about these, these young boys, these kids, these guys like they they need somebody, they need attention. They need somebody to look up to.

Indeed. The subtle art of not giving an F, and your other books, um, should be good reads for young men, I reckon, because they're lessons in moderation, uh, practicing sort of, um, realistic, but also, um, you know, action driven responses in life. And I sort of, I wonder if, um, somehow this message of moderation is being lost today. You know, it seems it seems that society is becoming more polarized, not just politically but but also socially. Is that your observation?

Indeed. The subtle art of not giving an F, and your other books, um, should be good reads for young men, I reckon, because they're lessons in moderation, uh, practicing sort of, um, realistic, but also, um, you know, action driven responses in life. And I sort of, I wonder if, um, somehow this message of moderation is being lost today. You know, it seems it seems that society is becoming more polarized, not just politically but but also socially. Is that your observation?

For sure. And what's interesting, you know, there are there have been some recent studies, at least here in the United States, that are finding that the the polarization is, is more and more happening among gender lines as well. So particularly with the younger generation. So that concerns me as well. It's it's bad enough having um, two kind of political sides that don't really want to talk or deal with each other. If that starts to become a gender based thing, then that's that's a real problem. So I pretty much constantly feel compelled, I guess, as a public figure or a person with an audience to help people engage with those that maybe they disagree with or that they find distasteful, um, to not just write it, write it off as you know. Oh, well, those are terrible people. Let's not think about what they just said or why why they're saying it or why they have attention. Like, I think it's really important that we all develop a skill within ourselves to, to be able to engage with those that, that make us uncomfortable.

For sure. And what's interesting, you know, there are there have been some recent studies, at least here in the United States, that are finding that the the polarization is, is more and more happening among gender lines as well. So particularly with the younger generation. So that concerns me as well. It's it's bad enough having um, two kind of political sides that don't really want to talk or deal with each other. If that starts to become a gender based thing, then that's that's a real problem. So I pretty much constantly feel compelled, I guess, as a public figure or a person with an audience to help people engage with those that maybe they disagree with or that they find distasteful, um, to not just write it, write it off as you know. Oh, well, those are terrible people. Let's not think about what they just said or why why they're saying it or why they have attention. Like, I think it's really important that we all develop a skill within ourselves to, to be able to engage with those that, that make us uncomfortable.

Indeed, one of the things that we should clarify is that your books and starting with, um, the subtle art, Are not about indifference. They're not about, um, not caring. Quite the opposite. Your your message is one of moderation and just common sense. Really. Um, can you can you clarify that and maybe correct what an assumption might be of somebody just picking up the book or seeing the title and not actually reading it?

Indeed, one of the things that we should clarify is that your books and starting with, um, the subtle art, Are not about indifference. They're not about, um, not caring. Quite the opposite. Your your message is one of moderation and just common sense. Really. Um, can you can you clarify that and maybe correct what an assumption might be of somebody just picking up the book or seeing the title and not actually reading it?

Sure. Uh, so I often joke that the book is a little bit of a Trojan horse, which is that the the title promises that you're not going to give an F about anything. But, you know, once you get about halfway through chapter one, I point out that there's not really there's no such thing as not giving an F about anything like the there's no such thing as indifference. You if you're trying to be indifferent about everything, then that's by definition you're caring too much about everything. So the the real question is, is what are you going to choose to give an F about? Because you have to give an F about something, so you might as well be very conscious in directing your your time and attention towards the things that you give an f about. And I think, as I mentioned before, I think, you know, in the social media age that awareness and choice is more important than ever before. And I think, um, you know, in line with the the moderation message, it is, you know, moderation is required in this day and age, just given the abundance of everything that we have and everything that's going on.

Sure. Uh, so I often joke that the book is a little bit of a Trojan horse, which is that the the title promises that you're not going to give an F about anything. But, you know, once you get about halfway through chapter one, I point out that there's not really there's no such thing as not giving an F about anything like the there's no such thing as indifference. You if you're trying to be indifferent about everything, then that's by definition you're caring too much about everything. So the the real question is, is what are you going to choose to give an F about? Because you have to give an F about something, so you might as well be very conscious in directing your your time and attention towards the things that you give an f about. And I think, as I mentioned before, I think, you know, in the social media age that awareness and choice is more important than ever before. And I think, um, you know, in line with the the moderation message, it is, you know, moderation is required in this day and age, just given the abundance of everything that we have and everything that's going on.

It sure is. Now, talking about the social media age, you've been pretty burned by it yourself. You were cyberstalked for a few years, weren't you?

It sure is. Now, talking about the social media age, you've been pretty burned by it yourself. You were cyberstalked for a few years, weren't you?

Yeah, yeah, that was that was the thing.

Yeah, yeah, that was that was the thing.

Can you can.

Can you can.

You tell us a little about that?

You tell us a little about that?

Um.

Um.

I'll tell you a funny story about it. Um, so there was a woman who, um, I mean, thankfully, she was, uh, she was harmless. She she was not physically threatening in any way, but, um, she, uh, she would appear at my events, she would fly around, she would find out where I am and try to fly around and find me and follow me around. And, uh, she was mentally unwell, and she she, uh, she she told me that, um, in her dreams, uh, God was telling her that she was supposed to. She and I were supposed to be together because we were going to save the world. So it was a whole thing. And I tried all these different ways to handle it. And, uh, she would create all these profiles and comment on all my stuff. And, uh, she started making web pages that looked like mine. And then she would, like, respond. Every article I wrote, she would write a response article with the same title, and she was claiming that I was, uh, that she was married to me and that we were, you know, she was my ex-girl all this stuff.

I'll tell you a funny story about it. Um, so there was a woman who, um, I mean, thankfully, she was, uh, she was harmless. She she was not physically threatening in any way, but, um, she, uh, she would appear at my events, she would fly around, she would find out where I am and try to fly around and find me and follow me around. And, uh, she was mentally unwell, and she she, uh, she she told me that, um, in her dreams, uh, God was telling her that she was supposed to. She and I were supposed to be together because we were going to save the world. So it was a whole thing. And I tried all these different ways to handle it. And, uh, she would create all these profiles and comment on all my stuff. And, uh, she started making web pages that looked like mine. And then she would, like, respond. Every article I wrote, she would write a response article with the same title, and she was claiming that I was, uh, that she was married to me and that we were, you know, she was my ex-girl all this stuff.

And, um.

And, um.

Wow, Well it was.

Wow, Well it was.

It went on for years and years. It went on for about 6 or 7 years. Um, and it was funny because, uh, I was, I had the, I had the chance a number of years ago to meet, um, Sir Richard Branson, and, uh, I was at a breakfast at the same table with him, and somehow stalkers came up and he told a story about his stalker, and, uh, and then I told the story about my stalker. And then at the end of the story, I said, well, you know, people at the table were like, wow, that's really that's really horrible. And I was like, yeah, but, you know, she was mentally unwell, like clearly had mental health problems. And Richard Branson looked at me and he was like, well, clearly, I mean, who would stalk you?

It went on for years and years. It went on for about 6 or 7 years. Um, and it was funny because, uh, I was, I had the, I had the chance a number of years ago to meet, um, Sir Richard Branson, and, uh, I was at a breakfast at the same table with him, and somehow stalkers came up and he told a story about his stalker, and, uh, and then I told the story about my stalker. And then at the end of the story, I said, well, you know, people at the table were like, wow, that's really that's really horrible. And I was like, yeah, but, you know, she was mentally unwell, like clearly had mental health problems. And Richard Branson looked at me and he was like, well, clearly, I mean, who would stalk you?

Oh.

Oh.

Well, that must have brought you down a few notches at the time. I mean, as you were, describing all that? I was, of course, thinking of the obvious. And that is baby reindeer sounds.

Well, that must have brought you down a few notches at the time. I mean, as you were, describing all that? I was, of course, thinking of the obvious. And that is baby reindeer sounds.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that show. Yeah, that show hit close to home. That show really hit close to home.

So that show. Yeah, that show hit close to home. That show really hit close to home.

I bet. Yeah, I.

I bet. Yeah, I.

Bet. Um, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but did I read somewhere that you actually introduced your wife to this woman to try and bring her back to reality, or that you're actually with someone? Or was that was that correctly reported?

Bet. Um, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but did I read somewhere that you actually introduced your wife to this woman to try and bring her back to reality, or that you're actually with someone? Or was that was that correctly reported?

Uh, yes. So that that story is in one of my books. Um, it is it was funny, actually, because it was my wife's idea. So, uh, my wife and I, we'd been together for a few years. Um, she had found out about this woman. You know, it was a whole thing. At first, she was kind of like, this is weird. Why is this woman following this guy? And then she. I showed her all the emails and the comments and everything, and she she realized she was like, okay. And so I was traveling with her. We weren't married at the time, but she and I were traveling together and, uh, uh, once again, my my stalker had flown, uh, quite far to show up where I was and try to meet me in person again. And I found out, she emailed me, and I found out she was in the same city as me, and, um, and my wife was like, you know what? Let's go talk to her. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. And and she said she was like, you know, maybe if she meets me and she talks to me and she understands like she, she see like maybe if I explain to her that, like, you and I are very committed relationship and that this is adding stress to our relationship, like maybe she'll understand if I'm the one who tells her. And I was like, all right, good luck. And so so we went to a cafe and met her, and we sit down with her and, um, you know, my wife very eloquently, you know, gives this whole talk about how, uh, you know, Mark and I are together and we're in a very committed relationship, and we're talking about marriage. And, you know, when you're emailing him eight times a day and calling him all the time, it's like it puts stress in our relationship. And anyway, she gives this, like, very beautiful, respectful, well crafted speech to her and politely asks her to to back off and let it go and, you know, move on. And and my stalker immediately looked at her and she said, oh no, I'm so sorry. I think you misunderstand. You don't have to break up with him. We can both be with him together. And my wife looked at me like, what the hell? And I was just like, I told you, I told you this was not going to go well.

Uh, yes. So that that story is in one of my books. Um, it is it was funny, actually, because it was my wife's idea. So, uh, my wife and I, we'd been together for a few years. Um, she had found out about this woman. You know, it was a whole thing. At first, she was kind of like, this is weird. Why is this woman following this guy? And then she. I showed her all the emails and the comments and everything, and she she realized she was like, okay. And so I was traveling with her. We weren't married at the time, but she and I were traveling together and, uh, uh, once again, my my stalker had flown, uh, quite far to show up where I was and try to meet me in person again. And I found out, she emailed me, and I found out she was in the same city as me, and, um, and my wife was like, you know what? Let's go talk to her. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. And and she said she was like, you know, maybe if she meets me and she talks to me and she understands like she, she see like maybe if I explain to her that, like, you and I are very committed relationship and that this is adding stress to our relationship, like maybe she'll understand if I'm the one who tells her. And I was like, all right, good luck. And so so we went to a cafe and met her, and we sit down with her and, um, you know, my wife very eloquently, you know, gives this whole talk about how, uh, you know, Mark and I are together and we're in a very committed relationship, and we're talking about marriage. And, you know, when you're emailing him eight times a day and calling him all the time, it's like it puts stress in our relationship. And anyway, she gives this, like, very beautiful, respectful, well crafted speech to her and politely asks her to to back off and let it go and, you know, move on. And and my stalker immediately looked at her and she said, oh no, I'm so sorry. I think you misunderstand. You don't have to break up with him. We can both be with him together. And my wife looked at me like, what the hell? And I was just like, I told you, I told you this was not going to go well.

Well.

Well.

Wow, what a story. Um, now I'm going to wind up the interview on a downer. Mark, its about death, okay? Because you you talk about death, reminding ourselves. Or the prospect of death. That is, reminding ourselves of what's important in our lives. And yet we basically spend our day to day lives in denial of our own mortality, don't we? I think we don't think about it. It's not we know some at some stage it's going to happen, but we don't spend our day to day lives thinking about it. So how do we remind ourselves of the really important things of life without sort of becoming depressed that we're, you know, getting to the end of the line, so to speak?

Wow, what a story. Um, now I'm going to wind up the interview on a downer. Mark, its about death, okay? Because you you talk about death, reminding ourselves. Or the prospect of death. That is, reminding ourselves of what's important in our lives. And yet we basically spend our day to day lives in denial of our own mortality, don't we? I think we don't think about it. It's not we know some at some stage it's going to happen, but we don't spend our day to day lives thinking about it. So how do we remind ourselves of the really important things of life without sort of becoming depressed that we're, you know, getting to the end of the line, so to speak?

Well, I think thinking about our own mortality is useful as a thought experiment. I don't think it's, you know, I don't encourage people to actually like, think about themselves dying constantly. But I do think, you know, Steve Jobs had this famous thing where he said that, um, frequently he would in the morning, he would look in the mirror and ask himself, if this was my last day alive, would I be happy doing what I'm doing today? And and he said that if if the answer was no for too many days in a row, then he would like, sit down and have a very serious conversation with himself about what he what he was doing in life. And I think ultimately like that practice, you know, the Stoics called it memento mori. Um, the Buddhists often reinforce it. I just think it's such a useful thing, because there's so much going on in our lives that it's very hard to get clarity on what's actually important, what's actually going to matter in the long run, what we actually care about beyond ourselves and and what's actually just ego playing out. And I think when we, when we sit and really imagine, uh, you know, play some of these thought experiments of like, if this was my last day alive or, or if I had a year left to live, you know, or what would my 80 year old self think about what I'm doing today? I think those things are just good for grounding us and orienting ourselves towards the things that actually matter. Um, generally you find anybody who's had a serious health scare, anybody who's been in a serious accident or had a brush with death or had somebody very close to them die. Um, pretty much unanimously. They say that it actually gives them a lot of clarity on the things that that matter in their lives and the things that don't. So I don't think we should necessarily have to wait for a calamity to happen to, to ask ourselves those questions.

Well, I think thinking about our own mortality is useful as a thought experiment. I don't think it's, you know, I don't encourage people to actually like, think about themselves dying constantly. But I do think, you know, Steve Jobs had this famous thing where he said that, um, frequently he would in the morning, he would look in the mirror and ask himself, if this was my last day alive, would I be happy doing what I'm doing today? And and he said that if if the answer was no for too many days in a row, then he would like, sit down and have a very serious conversation with himself about what he what he was doing in life. And I think ultimately like that practice, you know, the Stoics called it memento mori. Um, the Buddhists often reinforce it. I just think it's such a useful thing, because there's so much going on in our lives that it's very hard to get clarity on what's actually important, what's actually going to matter in the long run, what we actually care about beyond ourselves and and what's actually just ego playing out. And I think when we, when we sit and really imagine, uh, you know, play some of these thought experiments of like, if this was my last day alive or, or if I had a year left to live, you know, or what would my 80 year old self think about what I'm doing today? I think those things are just good for grounding us and orienting ourselves towards the things that actually matter. Um, generally you find anybody who's had a serious health scare, anybody who's been in a serious accident or had a brush with death or had somebody very close to them die. Um, pretty much unanimously. They say that it actually gives them a lot of clarity on the things that that matter in their lives and the things that don't. So I don't think we should necessarily have to wait for a calamity to happen to, to ask ourselves those questions.

It's such great advice. The standard question many journalists ask a celebrity or a subject is what advice would you give to your seven year old self? Or ten year old self, or 15 year old self? And it's it's not only a cliché, it's really tiresome, but and probably not very useful. But what is very useful as per your books is when you get older, thinking about your eight year old self is much more beneficial because it does. It does, as you've just outlined, encourage you to, uh, assess your priorities in life and and realize that, you know, there's it's not there's not an infinite amount of time left.

It's such great advice. The standard question many journalists ask a celebrity or a subject is what advice would you give to your seven year old self? Or ten year old self, or 15 year old self? And it's it's not only a cliché, it's really tiresome, but and probably not very useful. But what is very useful as per your books is when you get older, thinking about your eight year old self is much more beneficial because it does. It does, as you've just outlined, encourage you to, uh, assess your priorities in life and and realize that, you know, there's it's not there's not an infinite amount of time left.

Yeah. I, uh, I'm trying to remember if it was Shane Parrish or Oliver Burkeman, I don't know, some author friend of mine. He has a thing where he says, like, um, ask yourself if what you're doing would make your eight year old self and your 80 year old self smile. And if and if either of them wouldn't, then you should re-evaluate what you're doing.

Yeah. I, uh, I'm trying to remember if it was Shane Parrish or Oliver Burkeman, I don't know, some author friend of mine. He has a thing where he says, like, um, ask yourself if what you're doing would make your eight year old self and your 80 year old self smile. And if and if either of them wouldn't, then you should re-evaluate what you're doing.

Excellent.

Excellent.

Well, look, we're really looking forward to seeing you in Australia again. Really enjoyed chatting and thanks so much for your time today.

Well, look, we're really looking forward to seeing you in Australia again. Really enjoyed chatting and thanks so much for your time today.

Thank you. Thank you. Excited to be back down there.

Thank you. Thank you. Excited to be back down there.

Good weekend. Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search. Subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong. Editing from Konrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.

Good weekend. Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search. Subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong. Editing from Konrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.