Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to season six of Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with Lucy Morris Meagher after a shock diagnosis of stage four bowel cancer. The veteran journalist was driven to investigate the health risks of processed meats. In the course of that research, she uncovered a raft of scientific papers linking the nitrates used in many of these meats to improve flavour and eliminate bacteria with cancer. She's written a new book on the topic, processed about the hidden downside of sandwich ham and salami, fried bacon, hot dogs and pepperoni pizzas, and hosting this conversation about everything from how these meats are baked into our culinary culture, to why we ignore the sky high rates of cancer with which they're linked. Is good weekend deputy editor Greg Callahan.

Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to season six of Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with Lucy Morris Meagher after a shock diagnosis of stage four bowel cancer. The veteran journalist was driven to investigate the health risks of processed meats. In the course of that research, she uncovered a raft of scientific papers linking the nitrates used in many of these meats to improve flavour and eliminate bacteria with cancer. She's written a new book on the topic, processed about the hidden downside of sandwich ham and salami, fried bacon, hot dogs and pepperoni pizzas, and hosting this conversation about everything from how these meats are baked into our culinary culture, to why we ignore the sky high rates of cancer with which they're linked. Is good weekend deputy editor Greg Callahan.

Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Lucy.

Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Lucy.

Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here.

Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here.

Now, you've written a book, processed how the processed meat industry is killing us with the food we love. And it contains some amazing research, medical research about the dangers of processed meat just by definition. Lucy, what is processed meat?

Now, you've written a book, processed how the processed meat industry is killing us with the food we love. And it contains some amazing research, medical research about the dangers of processed meat just by definition. Lucy, what is processed meat?

The processed meat I've focused on is the one that there's the most concerns over. You could call processed meat, burgers and all sorts of different things, but the one that they're really worried about is cured meats. These are the hot dogs, the bacons, the salamis, the ones everyone loves. They're all delicious. The salty ones. The ones in the picnics. The ones in the lunch boxes. All the cured ones.

The processed meat I've focused on is the one that there's the most concerns over. You could call processed meat, burgers and all sorts of different things, but the one that they're really worried about is cured meats. These are the hot dogs, the bacons, the salamis, the ones everyone loves. They're all delicious. The salty ones. The ones in the picnics. The ones in the lunch boxes. All the cured ones.

And we've heard for you know what seems like generations about the dangers of eating saturated fat and eating too much red meat. But we haven't heard so much about the processed meat industry, have we?

And we've heard for you know what seems like generations about the dangers of eating saturated fat and eating too much red meat. But we haven't heard so much about the processed meat industry, have we?

No, and that's what's worrying, because there have been so many studies. In fact, in 2015, the World Health Organization declared them a class one carcinogen alongside asbestos and tobacco. Of course, they're not as dangerous as some of those things, but they were classed in that group, and it did make a world of media headlines at the time.

No, and that's what's worrying, because there have been so many studies. In fact, in 2015, the World Health Organization declared them a class one carcinogen alongside asbestos and tobacco. Of course, they're not as dangerous as some of those things, but they were classed in that group, and it did make a world of media headlines at the time.

It was a sobering day for meat lovers, especially in a country that ranked second in the world for eating the most.

It was a sobering day for meat lovers, especially in a country that ranked second in the world for eating the most.

Meat organization found that often beloved meats like sausage, bacon, ham.

Meat organization found that often beloved meats like sausage, bacon, ham.

Things like bacon, sausage, hot dogs and sliced meat can cause colon cancer.

Things like bacon, sausage, hot dogs and sliced meat can cause colon cancer.

Coming warning from the World Health Organization's cancer research arm that goes like this. Processed meats cause cancer, and red meat probably does, too.

Coming warning from the World Health Organization's cancer research arm that goes like this. Processed meats cause cancer, and red meat probably does, too.

And so the food scare happened then. This is nearly ten years ago, but nothing changed. And I don't think it's sunk into a general public awareness enough. There's never been like a book or a major documentary on this angle. And that's where I stepped in and thought it's time there was.

And so the food scare happened then. This is nearly ten years ago, but nothing changed. And I don't think it's sunk into a general public awareness enough. There's never been like a book or a major documentary on this angle. And that's where I stepped in and thought it's time there was.

I found the book quite a revelation from that, because yes, I'd read news stories about the dangers of eating too much processed ham and so forth, and but it hadn't really seeped into the public consciousness until I read your book and you had brought together all this information, basically sort of galvanized the argument against these, um, processed meats based on, on, on the evidence. So why hasn't the the public health message got through?

I found the book quite a revelation from that, because yes, I'd read news stories about the dangers of eating too much processed ham and so forth, and but it hadn't really seeped into the public consciousness until I read your book and you had brought together all this information, basically sort of galvanized the argument against these, um, processed meats based on, on, on the evidence. So why hasn't the the public health message got through?

Well, um, the industry in Australia is worth over $4 billion and employs 10,000 people. There's a lot at stake for the industry to keep this under wraps. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors with these products. A lot of them say you go into the supermarket and they'll say no additives or beautifully raised Australian meat. And and they don't mention that on the back. You know, one of the ingredients I really focus on in the book, during my investigation that came up again and again was preservative 250, which is sodium nitrate. And that really is a bad boy in the mix of this, if any listeners right now paused and went to their fridge, if they've got any bacon in the fridge, if you've got any pepperoni or salami, just turn over and look at the label and there will be more than likely, unless you've got it from an organic farm somewhere, preservative 250 or sodium nitrate. And that is what people and researchers all over the world are starting to get very worried about. And it's the really the Achilles heel for the industry because that particular ingredient, it helps stop botulism. It Botulism. It makes your bacon nice and pink. It gives it shelf stability and longevity in shops and in transport and in your fridge. But more and more evidence is showing that those nitrates, in particular in processed meats, are what can cause cancer and not just bowel cancer. As I explored in the book, I've read hundreds of clinical studies during the last four years, and they're actually related to about ten different serious illnesses.

Well, um, the industry in Australia is worth over $4 billion and employs 10,000 people. There's a lot at stake for the industry to keep this under wraps. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors with these products. A lot of them say you go into the supermarket and they'll say no additives or beautifully raised Australian meat. And and they don't mention that on the back. You know, one of the ingredients I really focus on in the book, during my investigation that came up again and again was preservative 250, which is sodium nitrate. And that really is a bad boy in the mix of this, if any listeners right now paused and went to their fridge, if they've got any bacon in the fridge, if you've got any pepperoni or salami, just turn over and look at the label and there will be more than likely, unless you've got it from an organic farm somewhere, preservative 250 or sodium nitrate. And that is what people and researchers all over the world are starting to get very worried about. And it's the really the Achilles heel for the industry because that particular ingredient, it helps stop botulism. It Botulism. It makes your bacon nice and pink. It gives it shelf stability and longevity in shops and in transport and in your fridge. But more and more evidence is showing that those nitrates, in particular in processed meats, are what can cause cancer and not just bowel cancer. As I explored in the book, I've read hundreds of clinical studies during the last four years, and they're actually related to about ten different serious illnesses.

So tell us, how do how do the nitrates actually get installed into the meat, if you like? I'm thinking we all know that basically most of these meats come from pigs, but at what stage are all these other chemical nasties added to the meat?

So tell us, how do how do the nitrates actually get installed into the meat, if you like? I'm thinking we all know that basically most of these meats come from pigs, but at what stage are all these other chemical nasties added to the meat?

This is when the meat is cured. And essentially, sodium nitrate is a mix of salt and nitrate. These chemical nitrates and often they're put in a brine or a powder. Different forms in the factory process. But where the harm can happen is the Is the interaction between nitro preservatives and the meat itself. This does put simply, and they can cause something called nitrosamines, which can go on to cause cancer. And it can in the case of bowel cancer, it can affect the lining of the bowel and, you know, and cause polyps and that sort of thing that they grow and they become cancerous. If they grow too big, they can spread, which is what happened in my case. I'll never know if you know. Processed meats definitely cause my bowel cancer, but they're in the frame. They're definitely in the frame. And, you know, there can be other causes. And I'm not claiming that's the only cause, but there's enough research now that shows that in particular, there's a UK piece of research that showed that they found that 13% of all UK bowel cancer cases were down to processed meats. And in 2013, another study, a global study, said that 34,000 people around the world had died of bowel cancer because of processed meats. So they're able to able to narrow down and more and more studies are actually coming out, even since this book went to press. So it really is a troubling thing that I'm not the person to reveal this food scare. I'm amplifying it. And that that's been a privilege as a journalist to to have this mission, so to speak, since I was diagnosed.

This is when the meat is cured. And essentially, sodium nitrate is a mix of salt and nitrate. These chemical nitrates and often they're put in a brine or a powder. Different forms in the factory process. But where the harm can happen is the Is the interaction between nitro preservatives and the meat itself. This does put simply, and they can cause something called nitrosamines, which can go on to cause cancer. And it can in the case of bowel cancer, it can affect the lining of the bowel and, you know, and cause polyps and that sort of thing that they grow and they become cancerous. If they grow too big, they can spread, which is what happened in my case. I'll never know if you know. Processed meats definitely cause my bowel cancer, but they're in the frame. They're definitely in the frame. And, you know, there can be other causes. And I'm not claiming that's the only cause, but there's enough research now that shows that in particular, there's a UK piece of research that showed that they found that 13% of all UK bowel cancer cases were down to processed meats. And in 2013, another study, a global study, said that 34,000 people around the world had died of bowel cancer because of processed meats. So they're able to able to narrow down and more and more studies are actually coming out, even since this book went to press. So it really is a troubling thing that I'm not the person to reveal this food scare. I'm amplifying it. And that that's been a privilege as a journalist to to have this mission, so to speak, since I was diagnosed.

Yes. You're certainly amplifying it from a very personal and powerful perspective here. Um, look, some people, when they think of their hot dogs and they think of their ham sandwiches and so forth, they think, why all this war on? Delicious. You know, these these foods are delicious. Um, we've got to eat something. Um, there's a study coming out every second or third week pointing to this food or this, uh, environmental factor causing cancer. Why, in your mind, apart from your very powerful story here, of course. But more broadly, why do you think that, um, processed meats are so dangerous.

Yes. You're certainly amplifying it from a very personal and powerful perspective here. Um, look, some people, when they think of their hot dogs and they think of their ham sandwiches and so forth, they think, why all this war on? Delicious. You know, these these foods are delicious. Um, we've got to eat something. Um, there's a study coming out every second or third week pointing to this food or this, uh, environmental factor causing cancer. Why, in your mind, apart from your very powerful story here, of course. But more broadly, why do you think that, um, processed meats are so dangerous.

Oh. Just because. Look, you mentioned the personal experience. I know what bowel cancer is like. I'm lucky to be here. Speaking today, I had I was diagnosed with stage four bowel cancer in 2019, but 15,000 Australians are getting diagnosed with bowel cancer every year. That's just in this country. And you know, if we apply those UK statistics that they came up with, that's 13% that comes around five Australians a day potentially could be being diagnosed because of eating processed meats. So it's very real. And when you've had it yourself and I've lost friends from this, it's been such a long journey. I made great friends in the bowel cancer community and then sadly, I've slowly lost many of them. It's been a terrible, terrible thing to witness. I've also made friends with people who've had it in the early stages, and they've quickly been cured with a minor surgery, maybe some chemotherapy. So I've seen it all ends. But yes. Okay, you could easily say, and people do say that to me when I mention I said, oh, don't have your bacon like friends. I say, have some halloumi for brunch. And I was like, oh, everything causes cancer. But I think when it's touched you so personally in so many ways, I just don't want anyone to suffer this because it's horrendous for you and your family and everything. And so yeah, that's my personal motivation there. I just don't want anyone to suffer. And it's something. Processed meats is something in a way, like a side, you know, a side dish. You don't have to have it. You could have mushrooms, you can have halloumi. There's so many different things, falafels that you know, with a meal that you know, could easily replace it. And yeah, or sometimes just have it as a treat. But what I'm seeing in Australia is it's so embedded in our cultural diet, increasingly so the sausage sizzles, we make a hero of it. The Bunnings one, the democracy sausage which is becoming and children are witnessing that we're giving them sausage sizzles after every sports game. And they're going to associate that with fun. And that's going to be passed on into their future adulthood and also then their children. So it's quite serious when there's something that's not good for them in quite a serious way that's getting so embedded in society. I just thought, I'm going to speak up for it, because it's really it's really something people are aware of. And if they're aware of it and they still choose to eat it, I don't mind your body, your rules. I don't want to be telling people what to eat. I, just, as a journalist, want people to be informed.

Oh. Just because. Look, you mentioned the personal experience. I know what bowel cancer is like. I'm lucky to be here. Speaking today, I had I was diagnosed with stage four bowel cancer in 2019, but 15,000 Australians are getting diagnosed with bowel cancer every year. That's just in this country. And you know, if we apply those UK statistics that they came up with, that's 13% that comes around five Australians a day potentially could be being diagnosed because of eating processed meats. So it's very real. And when you've had it yourself and I've lost friends from this, it's been such a long journey. I made great friends in the bowel cancer community and then sadly, I've slowly lost many of them. It's been a terrible, terrible thing to witness. I've also made friends with people who've had it in the early stages, and they've quickly been cured with a minor surgery, maybe some chemotherapy. So I've seen it all ends. But yes. Okay, you could easily say, and people do say that to me when I mention I said, oh, don't have your bacon like friends. I say, have some halloumi for brunch. And I was like, oh, everything causes cancer. But I think when it's touched you so personally in so many ways, I just don't want anyone to suffer this because it's horrendous for you and your family and everything. And so yeah, that's my personal motivation there. I just don't want anyone to suffer. And it's something. Processed meats is something in a way, like a side, you know, a side dish. You don't have to have it. You could have mushrooms, you can have halloumi. There's so many different things, falafels that you know, with a meal that you know, could easily replace it. And yeah, or sometimes just have it as a treat. But what I'm seeing in Australia is it's so embedded in our cultural diet, increasingly so the sausage sizzles, we make a hero of it. The Bunnings one, the democracy sausage which is becoming and children are witnessing that we're giving them sausage sizzles after every sports game. And they're going to associate that with fun. And that's going to be passed on into their future adulthood and also then their children. So it's quite serious when there's something that's not good for them in quite a serious way that's getting so embedded in society. I just thought, I'm going to speak up for it, because it's really it's really something people are aware of. And if they're aware of it and they still choose to eat it, I don't mind your body, your rules. I don't want to be telling people what to eat. I, just, as a journalist, want people to be informed.

Yes. Your book begins very powerfully with with your waking up in ICU and seeing a ham sandwich on a table adjoining your bed. Tell us a little about why you were so upset by the sight of that ham sandwich.

Yes. Your book begins very powerfully with with your waking up in ICU and seeing a ham sandwich on a table adjoining your bed. Tell us a little about why you were so upset by the sight of that ham sandwich.

Yeah. So this was an operation I had in 2022 as a multiple multiple liver resection. It sounds as bad as it is. Um, it was my second attempt to remove new tumors from my liver with an amazing surgeon. Um, and, uh, I was in intensive care. Woke up by that stage, I'd already done a lot of research. In fact, I had a book deal already. I got that in 2021. It just had to keep getting delayed. The submission of my manuscript because I was also fighting cancer. Um, but yes. So I was already writing the book and researching it. And then I woke up and I wasn't really supposed to eat at that point, of course. So that was a bit strange, but there was this ham sandwich and a drink, like a juice next to me. As soon as I woke up and I just my heart sank. And I just thought, even in hospitals, they give. I've just woken up from an operation which is because of metastatic bowel cancer, and there's a ham sandwich next to my bed. And I was I was just incensed. And even though I wasn't feeling well and I can't remember doing it, apparently I asked for the catering manager to come over and the nurses looked very confused and thought, what the hell? And a few days later he did appear and he said, I'm here about the ham sandwich. And I couldn't remember. And I said, oh yes, okay, let's have a chat about the ham Sandwich, and he didn't seem to know about the links with bowel cancer. And I said, that's why I'm here. And across the board. Actually, I'm from mums that I know from my kids school, and I've talked to all sorts of people in industry. I've even spoken once to a minor royal about this who happened to be at an event. And I don't know, we just got chatting about what I was writing and she didn't know much about it either, and she looked quite upset about the salami she liked having. So I've talked to people from all walks of life, and they just seem to be a gap of awareness, um, about the link to bowel cancer and other other conditions. And, and it actually motivated me more. I thought, they're giving this hospital patients because in my research, I also came across some study that said that by having more nitrates, if you've already got cancer, if you have more nitrate coming in, that can make it worse. So yeah, and in some countries, even in America, there is a call among a group that was asking for hospitals to ban processed meats. And this is happening in other countries as well. It's infuriating. In my hospital admissions, I would often just test, and when they give you the little menus, I would circle anything that was processed meats just out of interest. And some hospitals are better than others, but it's really bad that the dietitians are giving that out. Each hospital has dietitians. I know it's really difficult. They have to cater for so many different diets, people with diabetes, people who need extra calcium, etc. it's really hard. Hospital food catering. But I think hospitals can do better and they really need to definitely take out processed meats as number one priority.

Yeah. So this was an operation I had in 2022 as a multiple multiple liver resection. It sounds as bad as it is. Um, it was my second attempt to remove new tumors from my liver with an amazing surgeon. Um, and, uh, I was in intensive care. Woke up by that stage, I'd already done a lot of research. In fact, I had a book deal already. I got that in 2021. It just had to keep getting delayed. The submission of my manuscript because I was also fighting cancer. Um, but yes. So I was already writing the book and researching it. And then I woke up and I wasn't really supposed to eat at that point, of course. So that was a bit strange, but there was this ham sandwich and a drink, like a juice next to me. As soon as I woke up and I just my heart sank. And I just thought, even in hospitals, they give. I've just woken up from an operation which is because of metastatic bowel cancer, and there's a ham sandwich next to my bed. And I was I was just incensed. And even though I wasn't feeling well and I can't remember doing it, apparently I asked for the catering manager to come over and the nurses looked very confused and thought, what the hell? And a few days later he did appear and he said, I'm here about the ham sandwich. And I couldn't remember. And I said, oh yes, okay, let's have a chat about the ham Sandwich, and he didn't seem to know about the links with bowel cancer. And I said, that's why I'm here. And across the board. Actually, I'm from mums that I know from my kids school, and I've talked to all sorts of people in industry. I've even spoken once to a minor royal about this who happened to be at an event. And I don't know, we just got chatting about what I was writing and she didn't know much about it either, and she looked quite upset about the salami she liked having. So I've talked to people from all walks of life, and they just seem to be a gap of awareness, um, about the link to bowel cancer and other other conditions. And, and it actually motivated me more. I thought, they're giving this hospital patients because in my research, I also came across some study that said that by having more nitrates, if you've already got cancer, if you have more nitrate coming in, that can make it worse. So yeah, and in some countries, even in America, there is a call among a group that was asking for hospitals to ban processed meats. And this is happening in other countries as well. It's infuriating. In my hospital admissions, I would often just test, and when they give you the little menus, I would circle anything that was processed meats just out of interest. And some hospitals are better than others, but it's really bad that the dietitians are giving that out. Each hospital has dietitians. I know it's really difficult. They have to cater for so many different diets, people with diabetes, people who need extra calcium, etc. it's really hard. Hospital food catering. But I think hospitals can do better and they really need to definitely take out processed meats as number one priority.

Now, as I'm speaking to you today, I'm looking at a young woman you were diagnosed at. How old were you when you were diagnosed?

Now, as I'm speaking to you today, I'm looking at a young woman you were diagnosed at. How old were you when you were diagnosed?

I was 44 and my children were just nine and 11.

I was 44 and my children were just nine and 11.

That must have come as such a terrible shock.

That must have come as such a terrible shock.

Oh, it was absolutely horrendous. And I'm anyone who's had a cancer diagnosis. Would appreciate that. It sort of it started off bad and got worse as the day one particular week went on because you have scans and then by the end of the week, I was told I had stage four cancer with a major big tumor, probably a lime sized tumor in my sigmoid colon, and I had at least 5 or 6 tumors in my liver. And I just thought it was November and I thought, this is my last Christmas. I didn't know enough about about the treatment. I didn't know anything at that point. But at that moment I was told I thought that was it. And that was really, really difficult. My children were so young. I was flying high. I just had my first book published, which later won me a Walkley on the George Pell matter and literally just had this wonderful book launch. I was invited to lots of festivals and to do speeches and everything came to a halt. Everything stopped, everything was cancelled, and that was very, very difficult. Obviously I soon got a great team and a And a plan was made. I researched the hell out of it, being a journalist, of course, and I thought, nah, I'm going to get through this. I'm there is no way this is killing me. I just got it in my head and I just focused on the goal. That goal. Um. And I was stubborn as anything. Um, look, a lot of people are. I was also lucky the cancer I had didn't spread to bones or lungs or brain, which, unfortunately does happen with bowel cancer. As I said, I've lost friends. That's happened to. So there was some luck involved that we were able to control it. So it didn't do that. But, um, I just, I just I never forgot this phrase from Tony Robbins, um, the life coach, and he just said, um, he said to this group, why did you fail? Um, and they put lots of reasons up. And he said, no, you failed because you didn't use every single resource available to you. And I never forgot that. So I've had four oncologists. I've had to fire three, and only because I wanted to seek new ideas, nothing personal against them. I'd probably been in every hospital in Melbourne. I've contacted the top bowel surgeons in the world and had consultations with them or, you know, just found them on Facebook and sent them messages. I just was absolutely determined. I thought, no, I need my kids need me. I love my life. I love being a journalist. I've got to live. And I just was I was just on a mission. So far, so good. But it's been hard. I've been chopped to pieces. I've lost quite a lot of internal organs. I got the main ones, the ones I need, which is good.

Oh, it was absolutely horrendous. And I'm anyone who's had a cancer diagnosis. Would appreciate that. It sort of it started off bad and got worse as the day one particular week went on because you have scans and then by the end of the week, I was told I had stage four cancer with a major big tumor, probably a lime sized tumor in my sigmoid colon, and I had at least 5 or 6 tumors in my liver. And I just thought it was November and I thought, this is my last Christmas. I didn't know enough about about the treatment. I didn't know anything at that point. But at that moment I was told I thought that was it. And that was really, really difficult. My children were so young. I was flying high. I just had my first book published, which later won me a Walkley on the George Pell matter and literally just had this wonderful book launch. I was invited to lots of festivals and to do speeches and everything came to a halt. Everything stopped, everything was cancelled, and that was very, very difficult. Obviously I soon got a great team and a And a plan was made. I researched the hell out of it, being a journalist, of course, and I thought, nah, I'm going to get through this. I'm there is no way this is killing me. I just got it in my head and I just focused on the goal. That goal. Um. And I was stubborn as anything. Um, look, a lot of people are. I was also lucky the cancer I had didn't spread to bones or lungs or brain, which, unfortunately does happen with bowel cancer. As I said, I've lost friends. That's happened to. So there was some luck involved that we were able to control it. So it didn't do that. But, um, I just, I just I never forgot this phrase from Tony Robbins, um, the life coach, and he just said, um, he said to this group, why did you fail? Um, and they put lots of reasons up. And he said, no, you failed because you didn't use every single resource available to you. And I never forgot that. So I've had four oncologists. I've had to fire three, and only because I wanted to seek new ideas, nothing personal against them. I'd probably been in every hospital in Melbourne. I've contacted the top bowel surgeons in the world and had consultations with them or, you know, just found them on Facebook and sent them messages. I just was absolutely determined. I thought, no, I need my kids need me. I love my life. I love being a journalist. I've got to live. And I just was I was just on a mission. So far, so good. But it's been hard. I've been chopped to pieces. I've lost quite a lot of internal organs. I got the main ones, the ones I need, which is good.

So, Lucy, prior to this crashing diagnosis, had you had any intimation that something was wrong, did you have any idea that you might be potentially quite unwell?

So, Lucy, prior to this crashing diagnosis, had you had any intimation that something was wrong, did you have any idea that you might be potentially quite unwell?

Well, interestingly, this is a whole nother area of patient advocacy that I'm hoping to help with. I did go to a GP a year before. In fact, I presented at an emergency department a year before with abdominal pains. But as a woman, you know, you can get dismissed as all sorts of things. And this is an issue. And also, you know, they can say, oh, was it food poisoning in your own mind? You're like, well, I did have sushi yesterday. And then the pains went and then I went back. And then a doctor said it was diverticulitis, which was a bad guess, unfortunately. And she gave me antibiotics and they worked in quotes. And so her foot went off the pedal and so did mine. And then I was promoting my book and everything. And then the pains came back. And eventually I had a colonoscopy nearly a year after my first pains. And I'd gone to the doctors. I'd gone to the hospital. Um, this happens a lot, especially among GP's with young onset cancer situations where they think you're too young. Um, and there's a big campaign with Bowel Cancer Australia that's run for a long time called Never Too Young. Um, and I really support that because it's not just an old person's disease. There's more and more young people. In fact, 11% of all those 15,000 Australians who are being diagnosed with bowel cancer each year are under 50. So I was one of those. But yeah, by the time I was diagnosed, I had my colonoscopy and I woke up and I was taken into a side room and she said the tumour was so big the camera couldn't get past it. That was the start of that bad week whereby the end of the week, they found it was in my liver. And it was such a shame because a year before, if I'd been diagnosed properly and had the scans, perhaps it hadn't spread to my liver at that point. And that's quite an easy fix. Generally stage 1 or 2 bowel cancer. Look, it's a it's a bowel resection quite often maybe some chemotherapy. But you can be completely cured for life. But I'd come past that. And that's why it was such a shock. It was terrible.

Well, interestingly, this is a whole nother area of patient advocacy that I'm hoping to help with. I did go to a GP a year before. In fact, I presented at an emergency department a year before with abdominal pains. But as a woman, you know, you can get dismissed as all sorts of things. And this is an issue. And also, you know, they can say, oh, was it food poisoning in your own mind? You're like, well, I did have sushi yesterday. And then the pains went and then I went back. And then a doctor said it was diverticulitis, which was a bad guess, unfortunately. And she gave me antibiotics and they worked in quotes. And so her foot went off the pedal and so did mine. And then I was promoting my book and everything. And then the pains came back. And eventually I had a colonoscopy nearly a year after my first pains. And I'd gone to the doctors. I'd gone to the hospital. Um, this happens a lot, especially among GP's with young onset cancer situations where they think you're too young. Um, and there's a big campaign with Bowel Cancer Australia that's run for a long time called Never Too Young. Um, and I really support that because it's not just an old person's disease. There's more and more young people. In fact, 11% of all those 15,000 Australians who are being diagnosed with bowel cancer each year are under 50. So I was one of those. But yeah, by the time I was diagnosed, I had my colonoscopy and I woke up and I was taken into a side room and she said the tumour was so big the camera couldn't get past it. That was the start of that bad week whereby the end of the week, they found it was in my liver. And it was such a shame because a year before, if I'd been diagnosed properly and had the scans, perhaps it hadn't spread to my liver at that point. And that's quite an easy fix. Generally stage 1 or 2 bowel cancer. Look, it's a it's a bowel resection quite often maybe some chemotherapy. But you can be completely cured for life. But I'd come past that. And that's why it was such a shock. It was terrible.

It's quite alarming that bowel cancer is increasing among young people. Why do you think that's the case?

It's quite alarming that bowel cancer is increasing among young people. Why do you think that's the case?

Oh, look, there's there's lots of new studies and they're desperately researching it. There needs to be more research. Um, they're looking at low calcium, low activity. Other risky lifestyle factors like smoking ultra processed foods is a massive one. They're looking at, you know, there's consuming sugary drinks and fast food, um, not doing homemade foods so much anymore. Um, but the gut biome is a mysterious thing. There's a lot more research that needs to be done into bowel cancer. Um, there's all sorts of things that can be linked as well. Like the use of antibiotics, tooth decay. Um, there is more. So I'm not saying processed meats is is is the only thing, but it's something that I thought was so embedded in our society and is becoming more so. And it just felt like a really good thing to, for me to really focus on, um, because it has such established risks. But no one's listening. And the government and I think there needs to be clear labelling on meats, on some meats like sausages, because they can, for example, they contain sulfates quite often, and people can be allergic. There's a warning sign. I would like warning signs on here on on all processed meats that there's a bowel cancer risk that they contain nitrates. But that's not happening.

Oh, look, there's there's lots of new studies and they're desperately researching it. There needs to be more research. Um, they're looking at low calcium, low activity. Other risky lifestyle factors like smoking ultra processed foods is a massive one. They're looking at, you know, there's consuming sugary drinks and fast food, um, not doing homemade foods so much anymore. Um, but the gut biome is a mysterious thing. There's a lot more research that needs to be done into bowel cancer. Um, there's all sorts of things that can be linked as well. Like the use of antibiotics, tooth decay. Um, there is more. So I'm not saying processed meats is is is the only thing, but it's something that I thought was so embedded in our society and is becoming more so. And it just felt like a really good thing to, for me to really focus on, um, because it has such established risks. But no one's listening. And the government and I think there needs to be clear labelling on meats, on some meats like sausages, because they can, for example, they contain sulfates quite often, and people can be allergic. There's a warning sign. I would like warning signs on here on on all processed meats that there's a bowel cancer risk that they contain nitrates. But that's not happening.

Yeah, it's certainly not happening. And it's alarming to for young people because, um, the reality is with the cost of living, we are buying more processed foods because they're cheaper.

Yeah, it's certainly not happening. And it's alarming to for young people because, um, the reality is with the cost of living, we are buying more processed foods because they're cheaper.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Food and vegetables cost a lot more. Yeah. And also with the pace of living now, there isn't, as you say, you said a moment ago, there isn't a lot of time devoted to home cooking, restaurant meals, takeaway. All of those avenues for buying food are potentially unhealthy because they contain large amounts of sodium, large amounts of fat in sauces and creams. It's a problem, isn't it?

Food and vegetables cost a lot more. Yeah. And also with the pace of living now, there isn't, as you say, you said a moment ago, there isn't a lot of time devoted to home cooking, restaurant meals, takeaway. All of those avenues for buying food are potentially unhealthy because they contain large amounts of sodium, large amounts of fat in sauces and creams. It's a problem, isn't it?

It is. And when you also. And I. By the way, I have no judgement on a family or a mum or dad who, because of budget restraints, are buying processed meats. Um, growing up, I mentioned I was with a single mom in in Hampshire, in England, and she bought a Fray Bentos pie quite often. Um, or she would buy she didn't have a car sometimes. And she cycled to the shop, the corner shop where there was bacon that would last a while in our fridge and would be tasty, though of course there wasn't the warnings. Um, there are now. There was really not the research either. Um, but look, that's just economically and that's often there's food insecurity that in this country at the moment. And so, you know, at Costco, um, you see people queuing up for the 199 hot dog, which is probably one of the cheapest ways of eating in this country in terms of takeaway, because it includes a drink that you can refill and refill, and they've got the whole family. And I don't judge that. That's what they need to do to feed their family. If you want to, you can buy a, you know, a 12 sausages in Aldi. Um, you know, for less than $10. And again, that feeds those children. And so it's a shame that they're turning to processed meats, but sometimes you have to. So I'm coming this with no judgment whatsoever in terms of what people are choosing, but it certainly paints a picture of the worrisome ways these the chemicals in them, the way they're being produced and people are eating them because they are cheap and there is this economic pressure as well. So that's another thing in the mix that's worrying.

It is. And when you also. And I. By the way, I have no judgement on a family or a mum or dad who, because of budget restraints, are buying processed meats. Um, growing up, I mentioned I was with a single mom in in Hampshire, in England, and she bought a Fray Bentos pie quite often. Um, or she would buy she didn't have a car sometimes. And she cycled to the shop, the corner shop where there was bacon that would last a while in our fridge and would be tasty, though of course there wasn't the warnings. Um, there are now. There was really not the research either. Um, but look, that's just economically and that's often there's food insecurity that in this country at the moment. And so, you know, at Costco, um, you see people queuing up for the 199 hot dog, which is probably one of the cheapest ways of eating in this country in terms of takeaway, because it includes a drink that you can refill and refill, and they've got the whole family. And I don't judge that. That's what they need to do to feed their family. If you want to, you can buy a, you know, a 12 sausages in Aldi. Um, you know, for less than $10. And again, that feeds those children. And so it's a shame that they're turning to processed meats, but sometimes you have to. So I'm coming this with no judgment whatsoever in terms of what people are choosing, but it certainly paints a picture of the worrisome ways these the chemicals in them, the way they're being produced and people are eating them because they are cheap and there is this economic pressure as well. So that's another thing in the mix that's worrying.

In a way, the link between processed foods and and bowel cancer has been around for generations. I had a discussion with my own gastroenterologist about this only a year or two ago, and he was saying that in Japan, bowel cancer was absolutely so rare that they hardly had in the entire country of Japan, any bowel cancer specialists in the 1970s right through until the late 1980s. But after Japan switched to Western eating, the levels of bowel cancer soared. so there is the evidence, although it be an historical one, that there is a definite link, isn't there? We just have to look outside of our own country and our own experience to see that there is a direct link with bowel cancer and processed, highly processed foods.

In a way, the link between processed foods and and bowel cancer has been around for generations. I had a discussion with my own gastroenterologist about this only a year or two ago, and he was saying that in Japan, bowel cancer was absolutely so rare that they hardly had in the entire country of Japan, any bowel cancer specialists in the 1970s right through until the late 1980s. But after Japan switched to Western eating, the levels of bowel cancer soared. so there is the evidence, although it be an historical one, that there is a definite link, isn't there? We just have to look outside of our own country and our own experience to see that there is a direct link with bowel cancer and processed, highly processed foods.

Absolutely. I do focus on the number one country with the most bowel cancer deaths is Slovakia, and they're also the number one consumers of processed meats. I found out when I compared those two charts. Look again there can be variables when with bowel cancer statistics because of healthcare, of monitoring, testing, etc. plus, you know, there's other lifestyle factors such as smoking and obesity. But look, I thought it was an interesting thing to find out considering they are the number one consumers of processed meats. But yes, as you say, there's countries in the world who, you know, in Mozambique, for example, might be more rice and beans on the diet than not so much sausages and ham and pepperoni and their bowel cancer rates are much lower. Um, but, you know, these things are being introduced to countries which previously didn't eat them, like you say, in Japan. And that just shows the impact it can have on bowel cancer rates.

Absolutely. I do focus on the number one country with the most bowel cancer deaths is Slovakia, and they're also the number one consumers of processed meats. I found out when I compared those two charts. Look again there can be variables when with bowel cancer statistics because of healthcare, of monitoring, testing, etc. plus, you know, there's other lifestyle factors such as smoking and obesity. But look, I thought it was an interesting thing to find out considering they are the number one consumers of processed meats. But yes, as you say, there's countries in the world who, you know, in Mozambique, for example, might be more rice and beans on the diet than not so much sausages and ham and pepperoni and their bowel cancer rates are much lower. Um, but, you know, these things are being introduced to countries which previously didn't eat them, like you say, in Japan. And that just shows the impact it can have on bowel cancer rates.

Now, Lucy, you're the third person. Correct me if I'm wrong. In in Australia with stage four bowel cancer to have a liver transplant. Is that right?

Now, Lucy, you're the third person. Correct me if I'm wrong. In in Australia with stage four bowel cancer to have a liver transplant. Is that right?

Yes. That's right. It's been a very interesting journey in the last year. I feel incredibly, incredibly lucky during this five year journey of mine. The idea of a liver transplant was never on the table. I used to sometimes ask several times and they said no, because it's you've got static cancer, and if it's somewhere else, it would just take off because of the immune suppressants you'd have to take. And then suddenly, um, a friend in the bowel cancer community, I asked him how he was one day. Luckily, I asked him and he said, I'm great. I've just become the first person in Australia to have a liver transplant with bowel cancer, and I nearly just dropped my phone and fell over. And I just said, please tell me the name of your surgeon who happened to be in Sydney, sort of doing a clinical trial effectively. Um, and, and then I contacted him, um, in the time that I was contacting him, he did a second, um, transplant, which was basically the next door neighbor of my friend in Gippsland who was a young mum with four kids. And, and she just happened to hear about it through him. And she had a successful, um, liver transplant. And then, um, I did get offered to go to Sydney, but thankfully I just started with a new oncologist, Doctor Niall Tebbutt, who's wonderful. And, um, he had just come under his care and he said, let me speak to the team here. I don't know if they're ready to change protocol. I know they've talked about it. And then by the end of the day, I got a call saying, you can have it here in Melbourne at the Austin. And that was just that was over just about a year ago. And that was an amazing turn of events. And I was thrilled for about one minute. And then I was terrified and I thought, oh my gosh, You don't grow up in your life thinking you're going to have a liver transplant. Um, but I waited, um, about. I can't be precise. Um, unfortunately, on when I had it, just because of the protocol of not being linked to the family of the donor. But I did have it in the second part of last year. Um, and it was brutal and difficult. And I've had complications, which are very common. Um, but I've had it and I've now been cured of stage four bowel cancer, which not many people can say. And I feel so lucky. And I've lost, as I said, very close friends who didn't get this chance. So I feel so grateful. I'm so grateful to the donor and their family. Um, I haven't really had time to process it all. Um, but I'm absolutely thrilled with those medical decisions and advances. Um, Australia is one of only few countries to do this. Um, and it's because of amazing research and, um, forward thinking from people in a particular surgeon in France who did a did a big trial of this. And he realized that if rectal cancer patients could have liver transplants or the ones he gave liver transplants to, they were still 75% were still alive after five years. So that was that gave everyone all around the world a boost. New Zealand hasn't done them yet, but England has just done their first, so there's not many of us. So I just feel so lucky, um, and grateful and relieved.

Yes. That's right. It's been a very interesting journey in the last year. I feel incredibly, incredibly lucky during this five year journey of mine. The idea of a liver transplant was never on the table. I used to sometimes ask several times and they said no, because it's you've got static cancer, and if it's somewhere else, it would just take off because of the immune suppressants you'd have to take. And then suddenly, um, a friend in the bowel cancer community, I asked him how he was one day. Luckily, I asked him and he said, I'm great. I've just become the first person in Australia to have a liver transplant with bowel cancer, and I nearly just dropped my phone and fell over. And I just said, please tell me the name of your surgeon who happened to be in Sydney, sort of doing a clinical trial effectively. Um, and, and then I contacted him, um, in the time that I was contacting him, he did a second, um, transplant, which was basically the next door neighbor of my friend in Gippsland who was a young mum with four kids. And, and she just happened to hear about it through him. And she had a successful, um, liver transplant. And then, um, I did get offered to go to Sydney, but thankfully I just started with a new oncologist, Doctor Niall Tebbutt, who's wonderful. And, um, he had just come under his care and he said, let me speak to the team here. I don't know if they're ready to change protocol. I know they've talked about it. And then by the end of the day, I got a call saying, you can have it here in Melbourne at the Austin. And that was just that was over just about a year ago. And that was an amazing turn of events. And I was thrilled for about one minute. And then I was terrified and I thought, oh my gosh, You don't grow up in your life thinking you're going to have a liver transplant. Um, but I waited, um, about. I can't be precise. Um, unfortunately, on when I had it, just because of the protocol of not being linked to the family of the donor. But I did have it in the second part of last year. Um, and it was brutal and difficult. And I've had complications, which are very common. Um, but I've had it and I've now been cured of stage four bowel cancer, which not many people can say. And I feel so lucky. And I've lost, as I said, very close friends who didn't get this chance. So I feel so grateful. I'm so grateful to the donor and their family. Um, I haven't really had time to process it all. Um, but I'm absolutely thrilled with those medical decisions and advances. Um, Australia is one of only few countries to do this. Um, and it's because of amazing research and, um, forward thinking from people in a particular surgeon in France who did a did a big trial of this. And he realized that if rectal cancer patients could have liver transplants or the ones he gave liver transplants to, they were still 75% were still alive after five years. So that was that gave everyone all around the world a boost. New Zealand hasn't done them yet, but England has just done their first, so there's not many of us. So I just feel so lucky, um, and grateful and relieved.

It's wonderful news for you, Lucy. It's for somebody who's read the book and felt, I mean, at some distance, I might say, but. But still felt, you know, your journey quite closely. It's it's very gratifying news. So tell us, how are you travelling now?

It's wonderful news for you, Lucy. It's for somebody who's read the book and felt, I mean, at some distance, I might say, but. But still felt, you know, your journey quite closely. It's it's very gratifying news. So tell us, how are you travelling now?

Um. I'm good today. Look, it's only it's only been a few months. Um, unfortunately, a quarter of all transplant patients have the risk of bile duct, um, complications, and I do have that. Um, but my team are team are amazing. We're dealing with that. I've had a couple of procedures in the last couple of weeks to help deal with that, and it's a day by day thing. Um, hopefully that will be resolved. Um, they're very clever at the Austin and world class people. Absolutely. World class care. Um, so I'm just moving through that at the moment, but I'm very hopeful that can be resolved. Um, and I just keep moving. As I said, I'll never give up. Whatever happens, I'll never quit. And that's just how I have it in my mind, I have to. My children are 14 and 16. I want to see them get married. I want to be there for everything. And, um. Yeah, as you can tell, I'm pretty stubborn. Um, and it's taken four open operations, a liver transplant, and I'm not. Many of us live beyond five years, and I've lived five years, two months. And I just again, very, very grateful. Um, one of my best friends I made, I dedicate the book to him, Kieran Gall. He is a snow entrepreneur who, um, from Pambula, New South Wales. He became one of my best friends, along with his wife. Life, and he lost his fight in November 2023. And he knew I was writing this book and he was so proud I was doing it. And I quote him in the book a couple of times, and I just think of people like that, and that motivates me to keep moving forward, to take risks with the book and to keep trying to get cured. I mean, I have been cured of stage four bowel cancer, but a liver transplant, you know, brings new issues, but the cancer is not at risk of spreading around my body. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm still extremely lucky, even though I do have some complications.

Um. I'm good today. Look, it's only it's only been a few months. Um, unfortunately, a quarter of all transplant patients have the risk of bile duct, um, complications, and I do have that. Um, but my team are team are amazing. We're dealing with that. I've had a couple of procedures in the last couple of weeks to help deal with that, and it's a day by day thing. Um, hopefully that will be resolved. Um, they're very clever at the Austin and world class people. Absolutely. World class care. Um, so I'm just moving through that at the moment, but I'm very hopeful that can be resolved. Um, and I just keep moving. As I said, I'll never give up. Whatever happens, I'll never quit. And that's just how I have it in my mind, I have to. My children are 14 and 16. I want to see them get married. I want to be there for everything. And, um. Yeah, as you can tell, I'm pretty stubborn. Um, and it's taken four open operations, a liver transplant, and I'm not. Many of us live beyond five years, and I've lived five years, two months. And I just again, very, very grateful. Um, one of my best friends I made, I dedicate the book to him, Kieran Gall. He is a snow entrepreneur who, um, from Pambula, New South Wales. He became one of my best friends, along with his wife. Life, and he lost his fight in November 2023. And he knew I was writing this book and he was so proud I was doing it. And I quote him in the book a couple of times, and I just think of people like that, and that motivates me to keep moving forward, to take risks with the book and to keep trying to get cured. I mean, I have been cured of stage four bowel cancer, but a liver transplant, you know, brings new issues, but the cancer is not at risk of spreading around my body. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm still extremely lucky, even though I do have some complications.

And we're very lucky that you've written this book, because I think, to my knowledge, it's probably the very first really comprehensive analysis of the medical research and other evidence against eating processed meats. So thank you, Lucy. Thank you for joining us today.

And we're very lucky that you've written this book, because I think, to my knowledge, it's probably the very first really comprehensive analysis of the medical research and other evidence against eating processed meats. So thank you, Lucy. Thank you for joining us today.

Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations coming soon. We chat with the CEO of Music Australia, Millie Millgate, about the many challenges facing the music industry today. Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe. Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Chee Wong. Technical assistance from Cormac Lally. Editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.

If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations coming soon. We chat with the CEO of Music Australia, Millie Millgate, about the many challenges facing the music industry today. Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe. Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Chee Wong. Technical assistance from Cormac Lally. Editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.