Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with Allegra Spender. The federal member for Wentworth handled the Bondi Junction stabbing superbly, but has been on less sure footing around the highly contested subject of Gaza. She's now preparing to enter another thorny national debate tax reform. Begging the question crazy, brave or political suicide? Spender is the subject of our cover story this week, and hosting this conversation is the writer behind that piece. Associate editor and special writer for the Sydney Morning Herald, Deborah Snow.

Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with Allegra Spender. The federal member for Wentworth handled the Bondi Junction stabbing superbly, but has been on less sure footing around the highly contested subject of Gaza. She's now preparing to enter another thorny national debate tax reform. Begging the question crazy, brave or political suicide? Spender is the subject of our cover story this week, and hosting this conversation is the writer behind that piece. Associate editor and special writer for the Sydney Morning Herald, Deborah Snow.

Thanks, Conrad. Hi, Allegra. Thanks very much for joining us for good weekend Talks.

Thanks, Conrad. Hi, Allegra. Thanks very much for joining us for good weekend Talks.

Thanks so much for having me.

Thanks so much for having me.

Now, you're well known as one of the six teals who swept into Parliament two years ago, and as a group he dislodged Liberal MPs from six previously blue ribbon seats. Teals has become a well-known political brand since then, but you're keen to distance yourself from that. Why?

Now, you're well known as one of the six teals who swept into Parliament two years ago, and as a group he dislodged Liberal MPs from six previously blue ribbon seats. Teals has become a well-known political brand since then, but you're keen to distance yourself from that. Why?

Look, I when I started as I decided to run, no one, there was no such thing as a teal, and I got approached by my community to run as an independent in Wentworth. And so when I think about my role in Parliament, I start with that. You know, I think the Teals is a label that people have used to collectively talk about us. But, you know, we are all different. We have different perspectives. And sometimes, you know, we work together and sometimes we we disagree. And so I think it's trying to wrap something up, as you know, like a traditional make it a political party, which it isn't. And so that's why I keep on saying, you know, I come as a community independent. That's how I started and that's how I am.

Look, I when I started as I decided to run, no one, there was no such thing as a teal, and I got approached by my community to run as an independent in Wentworth. And so when I think about my role in Parliament, I start with that. You know, I think the Teals is a label that people have used to collectively talk about us. But, you know, we are all different. We have different perspectives. And sometimes, you know, we work together and sometimes we we disagree. And so I think it's trying to wrap something up, as you know, like a traditional make it a political party, which it isn't. And so that's why I keep on saying, you know, I come as a community independent. That's how I started and that's how I am.

And you've described yourself to me actually as a classic small l liberal. Now that puts you in a whole different category, doesn't it, from from the way that some people depict you as a, as a sort of leftist green teal, I think is what Peter Dutton has been saying.

And you've described yourself to me actually as a classic small l liberal. Now that puts you in a whole different category, doesn't it, from from the way that some people depict you as a, as a sort of leftist green teal, I think is what Peter Dutton has been saying.

Recently, and I absolutely I am. I would describe myself definitely as a small l liberal. Um, I'm someone who is, you know, focused on business, grew up in business, think a lot about the economy and and probably pretty conservative, um, and in the economy point of view. But I'm also a social liberal and somebody who cares about the environment and the long term. And, you know, for me, those are the traditional values that I really feel like I stand for.

Recently, and I absolutely I am. I would describe myself definitely as a small l liberal. Um, I'm someone who is, you know, focused on business, grew up in business, think a lot about the economy and and probably pretty conservative, um, and in the economy point of view. But I'm also a social liberal and somebody who cares about the environment and the long term. And, you know, for me, those are the traditional values that I really feel like I stand for.

So when Peter Dutton says a vote for a green teal, as he calls them, is a vote for Anthony Albanese, what's your response to that?

So when Peter Dutton says a vote for a green teal, as he calls them, is a vote for Anthony Albanese, what's your response to that?

I got to say, Peter Dutton should start to think about the communities that we represent, and you know that I represent and what they care about because, you know, he's this is a political strategy, but it really comes back to what do people care about? And I met this guy Sean, who I met in Bondi, you know, over two years ago. And what he said really stuck with me because I asked him, look, what do you care about? And he was pushing a little three year old on a in one of those scooter things. And he said, look, he says, I care about a bit of the environment. I live in a beautiful place and I want to preserve it for my kids. Said, I want us to treat people decently. I want to live in a kind society, he said. And I'm a small business owner, and that's the most important thing to me, and I feel like that's what people care about in my community. And so when Peter Dutton uses those labels, I think he's just ignoring what people really worry about. And I think we need to focus on, you know, the people who were meant to represent.

I got to say, Peter Dutton should start to think about the communities that we represent, and you know that I represent and what they care about because, you know, he's this is a political strategy, but it really comes back to what do people care about? And I met this guy Sean, who I met in Bondi, you know, over two years ago. And what he said really stuck with me because I asked him, look, what do you care about? And he was pushing a little three year old on a in one of those scooter things. And he said, look, he says, I care about a bit of the environment. I live in a beautiful place and I want to preserve it for my kids. Said, I want us to treat people decently. I want to live in a kind society, he said. And I'm a small business owner, and that's the most important thing to me, and I feel like that's what people care about in my community. And so when Peter Dutton uses those labels, I think he's just ignoring what people really worry about. And I think we need to focus on, you know, the people who were meant to represent.

There has been some criticism from liberals that I spoke to locally in Wentworth who say that you're not really leading because you you take your lead too much from the community, and they cite some of the polls that you've done where you're trying to measure community opinion in Wentworth on things like the stage three tax cut redesign. Um, they feel that you're doing not enough leading and a bit too much following.

There has been some criticism from liberals that I spoke to locally in Wentworth who say that you're not really leading because you you take your lead too much from the community, and they cite some of the polls that you've done where you're trying to measure community opinion in Wentworth on things like the stage three tax cut redesign. Um, they feel that you're doing not enough leading and a bit too much following.

Well, that's, um, you know, like, I think this is about leading and listening at the same time. And so for me, you know, I'm leading on tax policy. And frankly, I feel like I've taken more of a leadership role than probably anyone in, in the Parliament in, in leading the discussion on tax reform, why it's important. Um, and you know what some of the options should be. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Today we are talking about tax. And I personally am delighted because I care about this country. I care about the future for our kids. And if you care about those things, you need to care about tax because but I'm not afraid to listen and I'm not afraid to learn. And I do think that is the point, you know, to be a real leader. You know, I do this actually a bunch with a bunch of kids around our community. Ask them, what are some of those key leadership skills? And they talk about, you know, strength and and standing up, but they also talk about listening and compassion and about bringing people together and finding common ground. And that's what I do, and I'm very proud to do that.

Well, that's, um, you know, like, I think this is about leading and listening at the same time. And so for me, you know, I'm leading on tax policy. And frankly, I feel like I've taken more of a leadership role than probably anyone in, in the Parliament in, in leading the discussion on tax reform, why it's important. Um, and you know what some of the options should be. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Today we are talking about tax. And I personally am delighted because I care about this country. I care about the future for our kids. And if you care about those things, you need to care about tax because but I'm not afraid to listen and I'm not afraid to learn. And I do think that is the point, you know, to be a real leader. You know, I do this actually a bunch with a bunch of kids around our community. Ask them, what are some of those key leadership skills? And they talk about, you know, strength and and standing up, but they also talk about listening and compassion and about bringing people together and finding common ground. And that's what I do, and I'm very proud to do that.

Well, let's come to tax. You are known, I guess, as the most business oriented of this, and I'm going to use the word so-called teals out of deference to you at the moment. Um, you're known as perhaps the most. Well, you are probably the most business oriented, the most business experienced. Um, now you're throwing yourself into the lion's den with a green paper on tax that's meant to be coming out later this year. Before we discuss the political wisdom of that, can you tell us when that's coming out? And can you give us any hint what it's likely to be suggesting or doing?

Well, let's come to tax. You are known, I guess, as the most business oriented of this, and I'm going to use the word so-called teals out of deference to you at the moment. Um, you're known as perhaps the most. Well, you are probably the most business oriented, the most business experienced. Um, now you're throwing yourself into the lion's den with a green paper on tax that's meant to be coming out later this year. Before we discuss the political wisdom of that, can you tell us when that's coming out? And can you give us any hint what it's likely to be suggesting or doing?

Look, it's going to be coming out, um, hopefully around the end of September. And the, the the key focus of the paper is going to be about the why of why we need tax reform. And I say this because honestly, if you can't articulate and if the community isn't on board on why change is important, then it's almost pointless and particularly on an issue as complicated and difficult as tax and one that is very sensitive, you know, so we'll be covering a lot on the why in terms of the impact on on current younger people, on housing, on future generations, on the impact on productivity and the impact on our climate transition. And then we will look at some options that we can, you know, for, for reform. It's not going to be a perfect reform paper, to be honest, because it's a green paper. The point of this is actually to elicit response and to elicit engagement on an issue that has been too hot to handle, um, by the major parties. But, you know, when I talk to members of my community and I sat down with, you know, a really outstanding businesswoman recently, and she said to me, she said, look, I'm not interested in politics. I'm not interested in the politics of things. I'm interested in long term solutions to some of the most difficult issues that we face as a country. You know, I'm sick of Band-Aids. I'm sick of, you know, things that sound good or quick fixes because they don't really fix things. You know, we do need to deal with some of these big issues, and I think that my community is ready to have that engagement.

Look, it's going to be coming out, um, hopefully around the end of September. And the, the the key focus of the paper is going to be about the why of why we need tax reform. And I say this because honestly, if you can't articulate and if the community isn't on board on why change is important, then it's almost pointless and particularly on an issue as complicated and difficult as tax and one that is very sensitive, you know, so we'll be covering a lot on the why in terms of the impact on on current younger people, on housing, on future generations, on the impact on productivity and the impact on our climate transition. And then we will look at some options that we can, you know, for, for reform. It's not going to be a perfect reform paper, to be honest, because it's a green paper. The point of this is actually to elicit response and to elicit engagement on an issue that has been too hot to handle, um, by the major parties. But, you know, when I talk to members of my community and I sat down with, you know, a really outstanding businesswoman recently, and she said to me, she said, look, I'm not interested in politics. I'm not interested in the politics of things. I'm interested in long term solutions to some of the most difficult issues that we face as a country. You know, I'm sick of Band-Aids. I'm sick of, you know, things that sound good or quick fixes because they don't really fix things. You know, we do need to deal with some of these big issues, and I think that my community is ready to have that engagement.

And what makes you think you can make a difference here with something like the Ken Henry, the famous unimplemented Ken Henry tax review of about 15 years ago has been languishing in various ministers bottom drawers gathering dust.

And what makes you think you can make a difference here with something like the Ken Henry, the famous unimplemented Ken Henry tax review of about 15 years ago has been languishing in various ministers bottom drawers gathering dust.

Uh, look, there's been, you know, looking actually a history of tax reform in Australia. Like, it's not unusual for a big report like that to take a long time to get to implementation. And so I see my, my role is part of, of, you know, that that push to say, you know, it's still true. Absolutely. What Ken Henry said and what that team identified as some of the challenges. We haven't acted on it, but it is becoming increasingly important and increasingly urgent that we do. And so I see my job as as, you know, being part of the community that drives this agenda forward. You know, I'm not the only one, but I think, you know, I've really tried to take a leadership role in this Parliament because as an independent, I can talk about these things in a way, you know, that the major parties have basically wedged themselves out of the debate in so many cases.

Uh, look, there's been, you know, looking actually a history of tax reform in Australia. Like, it's not unusual for a big report like that to take a long time to get to implementation. And so I see my, my role is part of, of, you know, that that push to say, you know, it's still true. Absolutely. What Ken Henry said and what that team identified as some of the challenges. We haven't acted on it, but it is becoming increasingly important and increasingly urgent that we do. And so I see my job as as, you know, being part of the community that drives this agenda forward. You know, I'm not the only one, but I think, you know, I've really tried to take a leadership role in this Parliament because as an independent, I can talk about these things in a way, you know, that the major parties have basically wedged themselves out of the debate in so many cases.

Do you worry about a backlash? Is this politically naive? We've got we're in we're going into an election. We've got a cost of living crisis. Do you think this is the ideal time to be releasing something like this?

Do you worry about a backlash? Is this politically naive? We've got we're in we're going into an election. We've got a cost of living crisis. Do you think this is the ideal time to be releasing something like this?

Look, I think I've got a the way I do it has to be careful and to be thoughtful. And you've got to be. You know, I'm really conscious that, you know, some people are having a really hard time right now. And but this is part of that question. And the solution was to say, you know, it's not an accident. You know, that, you know, housing is is so unaffordable for young people. This is something that's been going on for 20 years and pushing this back, you know, worrying about this, you know, when we have some good times isn't necessarily an option for us anymore. You know, we have the lowest productivity we've had, you know, for 60 years. Like, we can't just hope that it's going to get better without actual real reform. So, you know, it's going to be challenging. But I think this is really about engaging people on the journey and saying, you know, and engaging people on, you know, what are some of the solutions here?

Look, I think I've got a the way I do it has to be careful and to be thoughtful. And you've got to be. You know, I'm really conscious that, you know, some people are having a really hard time right now. And but this is part of that question. And the solution was to say, you know, it's not an accident. You know, that, you know, housing is is so unaffordable for young people. This is something that's been going on for 20 years and pushing this back, you know, worrying about this, you know, when we have some good times isn't necessarily an option for us anymore. You know, we have the lowest productivity we've had, you know, for 60 years. Like, we can't just hope that it's going to get better without actual real reform. So, you know, it's going to be challenging. But I think this is really about engaging people on the journey and saying, you know, and engaging people on, you know, what are some of the solutions here?

You told me at one point when we sat down with each other that you didn't realize you had, that you had always admired your mother's guts, I think was the word you used. And you've discovered going to politics, that you've had more courage than you realized you had. Do you anticipate that that courage is going to be really required to face a possible firestorm on tax?

You told me at one point when we sat down with each other that you didn't realize you had, that you had always admired your mother's guts, I think was the word you used. And you've discovered going to politics, that you've had more courage than you realized you had. Do you anticipate that that courage is going to be really required to face a possible firestorm on tax?

Look, I think, um, you know, my goal is to to manage it well, but I think, you know, I think you need courage in this job, and you need courage in, in a lot of jobs. And, you know, I'm, I think I guess, you know, I remind myself, what am I here for? You know, this isn't about. You know, this isn't about my career. This is. You know, I don't you know, I've had a job and a wonderful career before this. I can have a job, a wonderful career after this. Um, but there's no point just, you know, keeping the seat warm. It's actually about trying to make a difference on some of the most important issues that we have as a country. And, you know, I think tax is a really important one, and it's one I'm willing to to lead on and and to be also humble and say, I don't have all the answers. I'm going to keep on setting out the questions, setting out some options and see where we go to.

Look, I think, um, you know, my goal is to to manage it well, but I think, you know, I think you need courage in this job, and you need courage in, in a lot of jobs. And, you know, I'm, I think I guess, you know, I remind myself, what am I here for? You know, this isn't about. You know, this isn't about my career. This is. You know, I don't you know, I've had a job and a wonderful career before this. I can have a job, a wonderful career after this. Um, but there's no point just, you know, keeping the seat warm. It's actually about trying to make a difference on some of the most important issues that we have as a country. And, you know, I think tax is a really important one, and it's one I'm willing to to lead on and and to be also humble and say, I don't have all the answers. I'm going to keep on setting out the questions, setting out some options and see where we go to.

I've heard you, uh, raise cost of housing and intergenerational inequity a few times in the context of discussions about where this paper might go. That seems to point to the fact that you might be looking at things like negative gearing, uh, property concessions for tax investors, maybe superannuation for those with high balances. I mean, these are all issues that could be really sensitive ones for voters in Wentworth.

I've heard you, uh, raise cost of housing and intergenerational inequity a few times in the context of discussions about where this paper might go. That seems to point to the fact that you might be looking at things like negative gearing, uh, property concessions for tax investors, maybe superannuation for those with high balances. I mean, these are all issues that could be really sensitive ones for voters in Wentworth.

Look, I think, you know, tax is sensitive to people in all communities and my community as well. Um, but also housing is also really sensitive. You know, you do. I hear this from every generation. I hear from young people, I hear from, you know, people my age. I hear people, you know, so grandparents who are saying, look, I'm worried that we can't provide the same, but my kids won't have the same options that that I did, you know, or, you know, my kids might be okay, but what about kids who don't have, you know, bank of mum and Dad to back them? And so I do think as a country, we need to face, you know, this question of, to make sure we are a country that lives up to, um, you know, to the Australian dream that, you know, if you work hard, you know, you do the right thing, you make good choices. Um, you have a good chance of, you know, setting, you know, setting yourself up in your home, raising a family as your parents did. And, you know, so I think we do need to look at these things. There's I don't think there's silver bullets in in housing affordability in the tax system. But I also think, you know, we can't, um, worry about big issues and not actually look at the full range of solutions as well.

Look, I think, you know, tax is sensitive to people in all communities and my community as well. Um, but also housing is also really sensitive. You know, you do. I hear this from every generation. I hear from young people, I hear from, you know, people my age. I hear people, you know, so grandparents who are saying, look, I'm worried that we can't provide the same, but my kids won't have the same options that that I did, you know, or, you know, my kids might be okay, but what about kids who don't have, you know, bank of mum and Dad to back them? And so I do think as a country, we need to face, you know, this question of, to make sure we are a country that lives up to, um, you know, to the Australian dream that, you know, if you work hard, you know, you do the right thing, you make good choices. Um, you have a good chance of, you know, setting, you know, setting yourself up in your home, raising a family as your parents did. And, you know, so I think we do need to look at these things. There's I don't think there's silver bullets in in housing affordability in the tax system. But I also think, you know, we can't, um, worry about big issues and not actually look at the full range of solutions as well.

Can you give us any more ideas to what might be in it?

Can you give us any more ideas to what might be in it?

No.

No.

Wraps are staying on. Okay. Um, let's just look quickly at, uh, the prospect of, as I said, so-called teals. Um, obviously at least one at the moment is losing her seat. That's Carly Tink. Uh, there has been a suggestion that if the election is called super early, before the AEC has finished its redistribution, that your seat might get smashed together somehow with Sally's in order to do, I think, a sort of a rapid fix mini redistribution as a temporary measure. Is that worrying you? Are you giving much thought to that?

Wraps are staying on. Okay. Um, let's just look quickly at, uh, the prospect of, as I said, so-called teals. Um, obviously at least one at the moment is losing her seat. That's Carly Tink. Uh, there has been a suggestion that if the election is called super early, before the AEC has finished its redistribution, that your seat might get smashed together somehow with Sally's in order to do, I think, a sort of a rapid fix mini redistribution as a temporary measure. Is that worrying you? Are you giving much thought to that?

Look, I hope it doesn't happen. One, I don't hope we don't have an election that early, but two, I just don't think it makes any sense. Honestly. We have a massive harbour between Warringah and Wentworth. You know, when the AEC is looking for redistributions, you know, doing minor redistributions, it never is looking to redistribute it against the harbour. So it just really doesn't make sense to me I'll be honest.

Look, I hope it doesn't happen. One, I don't hope we don't have an election that early, but two, I just don't think it makes any sense. Honestly. We have a massive harbour between Warringah and Wentworth. You know, when the AEC is looking for redistributions, you know, doing minor redistributions, it never is looking to redistribute it against the harbour. So it just really doesn't make sense to me I'll be honest.

So you're not too fussed about it.

So you're not too fussed about it.

Look you know looking at it as an issue. But you know, it's I hopefully that it's a pretty unlikely situation.

Look you know looking at it as an issue. But you know, it's I hopefully that it's a pretty unlikely situation.

Okay. So you as a block, however you want to start that community independence with a teal tinge. Increasingly it's looking as though the outcome is going to be very tight at the election. I think the Financial Review this week had, for the first time had Peter Dutton and the opposition, uh, just slightly ahead of labor on the two party preferred. Now, of course, that can yo yo around quite a lot, but the people I talked to increasingly seems to be a feeling that there could be a hung parliament, and the likelihood of that seems to be increasing, not decreasing in that situation. Are your numbers as a group, if you're going to operate as a group, could be critical. So do you see that you would operate as a group in that scenario, or would you all be open to doing your own separate negotiations with whichever party is trying to form a government?

Okay. So you as a block, however you want to start that community independence with a teal tinge. Increasingly it's looking as though the outcome is going to be very tight at the election. I think the Financial Review this week had, for the first time had Peter Dutton and the opposition, uh, just slightly ahead of labor on the two party preferred. Now, of course, that can yo yo around quite a lot, but the people I talked to increasingly seems to be a feeling that there could be a hung parliament, and the likelihood of that seems to be increasing, not decreasing in that situation. Are your numbers as a group, if you're going to operate as a group, could be critical. So do you see that you would operate as a group in that scenario, or would you all be open to doing your own separate negotiations with whichever party is trying to form a government?

Look, I think we're hopefully some distance, I said from the election on this. Um, you know, I would certainly work with my colleagues as I can on on this and as I have on a bunch of different issues. Um, and, you know, I because I think, you know, it would be, you know, that situation, um, you know, is really important. And so I would certainly be consulting my colleagues in terms of how to approach it and how to get, you know, the best outcome really for for the country. Um, but we will, you know, we will see we are a long way away from that. And, you know, there's a lot of work, frankly, that needs to be done in this Parliament before we get to the next one.

Look, I think we're hopefully some distance, I said from the election on this. Um, you know, I would certainly work with my colleagues as I can on on this and as I have on a bunch of different issues. Um, and, you know, I because I think, you know, it would be, you know, that situation, um, you know, is really important. And so I would certainly be consulting my colleagues in terms of how to approach it and how to get, you know, the best outcome really for for the country. Um, but we will, you know, we will see we are a long way away from that. And, you know, there's a lot of work, frankly, that needs to be done in this Parliament before we get to the next one.

Okay. Let's turn to, uh, another really difficult issue. We've talked about tax. Now, the war in Gaza has caused massive headaches, obviously, for some Labour ministers who've got large Muslim populations in their electorates, you've got a substantial, Jewish component in your electorate. I think the numbers were about 15% last time we spoke. Now, I have been getting feedback from some members of that Jewish community, quite strong feedback that they feel that you need to be supporting Israel more strongly. How hard is it for you to try and walk a middle line on an issue like that?

Okay. Let's turn to, uh, another really difficult issue. We've talked about tax. Now, the war in Gaza has caused massive headaches, obviously, for some Labour ministers who've got large Muslim populations in their electorates, you've got a substantial, Jewish component in your electorate. I think the numbers were about 15% last time we spoke. Now, I have been getting feedback from some members of that Jewish community, quite strong feedback that they feel that you need to be supporting Israel more strongly. How hard is it for you to try and walk a middle line on an issue like that?

Look, this is, um, this is a heartbreaking situation. I think, you know, the Jewish community in my in my area, but across the country, I think has never had a more difficult moment. And I think it's both about the existential, um, you know, threat against Israel, about its deep concern, obviously, after the horrific, um, October 7th attacks and, but also the anti-Semitism here locally, which is, I think, of huge concern to my community. And at the same time, you know, the community, the broader community is also equally, um, concerned about the heartbreaking loss of life in Gaza. And I think, you know, Australia is I think, you know, almost all Australians would say, look, you know, we just want to find a pathway to peace, you know, where, you know, Israelis and Palestinian people can live together, um, peacefully because it is absolutely heartbreaking. And so, look, it is a really hard issue for my community and all communities. Um, and, and, you know, I think probably my focus has been on, you know, on particularly on supporting the community, um, around anti-Semitism because this is something, you know, I speak to actually just a friend yesterday who, you know, wrote to me and just said, you know, this is someone who never thought there was really an anti-Semitism was a thing. And since October 7th, I've spoken to uni students, you know, who are facing horrific situations at uni where they just don't feel welcome anymore. Um, and so we have a lot to do locally here. Now, you know, I have been, you know, a strong supporter of Israel at the same time, you know, wanting to see, um, you know, you know, aid to Palestinians and wanting to see an end to this war. And, you know, you know, an intense issue like this, you don't please everybody all the time. And, you know, there are parts of the community that will be support what I say, parts who don't. It's a diverse community. They have differences of opinions. But for me, the main piece is just standing up, turning up for the community, listening, learning, speaking up and continuing to speak up and particularly speaking up, um, in relation to anti-Semitism.

Look, this is, um, this is a heartbreaking situation. I think, you know, the Jewish community in my in my area, but across the country, I think has never had a more difficult moment. And I think it's both about the existential, um, you know, threat against Israel, about its deep concern, obviously, after the horrific, um, October 7th attacks and, but also the anti-Semitism here locally, which is, I think, of huge concern to my community. And at the same time, you know, the community, the broader community is also equally, um, concerned about the heartbreaking loss of life in Gaza. And I think, you know, Australia is I think, you know, almost all Australians would say, look, you know, we just want to find a pathway to peace, you know, where, you know, Israelis and Palestinian people can live together, um, peacefully because it is absolutely heartbreaking. And so, look, it is a really hard issue for my community and all communities. Um, and, and, you know, I think probably my focus has been on, you know, on particularly on supporting the community, um, around anti-Semitism because this is something, you know, I speak to actually just a friend yesterday who, you know, wrote to me and just said, you know, this is someone who never thought there was really an anti-Semitism was a thing. And since October 7th, I've spoken to uni students, you know, who are facing horrific situations at uni where they just don't feel welcome anymore. Um, and so we have a lot to do locally here. Now, you know, I have been, you know, a strong supporter of Israel at the same time, you know, wanting to see, um, you know, you know, aid to Palestinians and wanting to see an end to this war. And, you know, you know, an intense issue like this, you don't please everybody all the time. And, you know, there are parts of the community that will be support what I say, parts who don't. It's a diverse community. They have differences of opinions. But for me, the main piece is just standing up, turning up for the community, listening, learning, speaking up and continuing to speak up and particularly speaking up, um, in relation to anti-Semitism.

So I've had liberals say to me that you have betrayed the the Jewish vote because you signed a letter back in March which called on the Labour government to consider restoring funding to Unwra, which is the UN agency that looks after refugees in Gaza. Are you still paying a price for signing that letter? And how do you how do you cope with a backlash like that?

So I've had liberals say to me that you have betrayed the the Jewish vote because you signed a letter back in March which called on the Labour government to consider restoring funding to Unwra, which is the UN agency that looks after refugees in Gaza. Are you still paying a price for signing that letter? And how do you how do you cope with a backlash like that?

You know, for me, the main point and I continue to say this, that, um, I think the whole community wants to make sure that the Palestinian people in Gaza right now are getting the, you know, the humanitarian aid that they need. And it is very difficult to judge from this distance how to best deliver that. But it is in everyone's interest. And it's absolutely I think as a, as, you know, a member of the human race, we all care and look at that suffering and want to make sure that people are getting the support that they need. And that was really what that letter is about. Now, you know, again, people have different views about this. You just have to keep on going. And, you know, being you keep on. What I keep on doing is keep on standing up for the community, listening, learning, advocating very strongly, you know, for the community on the issues that are important to them. And everything else will be what will be.

You know, for me, the main point and I continue to say this, that, um, I think the whole community wants to make sure that the Palestinian people in Gaza right now are getting the, you know, the humanitarian aid that they need. And it is very difficult to judge from this distance how to best deliver that. But it is in everyone's interest. And it's absolutely I think as a, as, you know, a member of the human race, we all care and look at that suffering and want to make sure that people are getting the support that they need. And that was really what that letter is about. Now, you know, again, people have different views about this. You just have to keep on going. And, you know, being you keep on. What I keep on doing is keep on standing up for the community, listening, learning, advocating very strongly, you know, for the community on the issues that are important to them. And everything else will be what will be.

So you had a horrific event unfolding in your electorate back in April when, uh, there was a man who took the lives of six people, um, stabbed them at the major shopping centre in your electorate. And that had a tremendous impact, not just on those people who lost their immediate family members, but it rippled right throughout that community. What was that like for you having to try and shepherd your flock if If you want to use a clerical metaphor through through that time.

So you had a horrific event unfolding in your electorate back in April when, uh, there was a man who took the lives of six people, um, stabbed them at the major shopping centre in your electorate. And that had a tremendous impact, not just on those people who lost their immediate family members, but it rippled right throughout that community. What was that like for you having to try and shepherd your flock if If you want to use a clerical metaphor through through that time.

Look, you know, it's I think you really learn by doing. There's no there's no playbook for exactly what to do. And part of it was for me was just going, okay, you know, what's going on and what are the gaps in terms of are there gaps in terms of the services available? Are there gaps in terms of what people need? What are people looking for? I actually spoke to some of my friends and said, you know, what? Do you as people who live in the area, what do you want? And what they said to me was, actually, we don't know how to talk about our kids, talk to our kids about this. And we are really scared about what's gone Tik Tok. And so for us, it was about getting that message out. There is like, keep your kids off social media because there's a lot of horrific pieces out there reaching out to the minister in relation to, you know, that horrific imagery, but also, you know, providing resources where they were needed. And then a big part of it is then just being there and listening. And I think in these funny, you know, these difficult, hard moments, you know, part of the role is actually just being there and being someone who is familiar, um, who is a, you know, a leader of the community and just being present and being ready to listen and to be there. And so I spent quite a lot of time up there in Bondi Junction at the memorial, just really listening to people and just trying to be there as a presence. And it is something that rippled through us. And, you know, I just the other week in Parliament, I had Elizabeth Young, who was a mother of Jade young, one of the people who lost her life. And Elizabeth has spoken very strongly about, you know, the need for us to focus on, you know, mental health.

Look, you know, it's I think you really learn by doing. There's no there's no playbook for exactly what to do. And part of it was for me was just going, okay, you know, what's going on and what are the gaps in terms of are there gaps in terms of the services available? Are there gaps in terms of what people need? What are people looking for? I actually spoke to some of my friends and said, you know, what? Do you as people who live in the area, what do you want? And what they said to me was, actually, we don't know how to talk about our kids, talk to our kids about this. And we are really scared about what's gone Tik Tok. And so for us, it was about getting that message out. There is like, keep your kids off social media because there's a lot of horrific pieces out there reaching out to the minister in relation to, you know, that horrific imagery, but also, you know, providing resources where they were needed. And then a big part of it is then just being there and listening. And I think in these funny, you know, these difficult, hard moments, you know, part of the role is actually just being there and being someone who is familiar, um, who is a, you know, a leader of the community and just being present and being ready to listen and to be there. And so I spent quite a lot of time up there in Bondi Junction at the memorial, just really listening to people and just trying to be there as a presence. And it is something that rippled through us. And, you know, I just the other week in Parliament, I had Elizabeth Young, who was a mother of Jade young, one of the people who lost her life. And Elizabeth has spoken very strongly about, you know, the need for us to focus on, you know, mental health.

Please, in the long shadow of the horror of Jade's death, I beg you, as the voice of three shattered households, please actually do something about the discrepancies, the disparities, the inconsistencies in current mental health funding and management between the federal government and states and between states. Australia's mental health system is in crisis and now is the time to act.

Please, in the long shadow of the horror of Jade's death, I beg you, as the voice of three shattered households, please actually do something about the discrepancies, the disparities, the inconsistencies in current mental health funding and management between the federal government and states and between states. Australia's mental health system is in crisis and now is the time to act.

And that is sort of the legacy that I'm trying to to run now is to, you know, to heed her words and to keep the pressure on. Um, so, you know, these things change communities, but you have to try and build something that is a long legacy that is positive out of something so horrific.

And that is sort of the legacy that I'm trying to to run now is to, you know, to heed her words and to keep the pressure on. Um, so, you know, these things change communities, but you have to try and build something that is a long legacy that is positive out of something so horrific.

I'm going to rewind way, way back now to to your childhood. Now, you grew up in a very political family. Your father was a federal MP. Your grandfather was a very eminent Sir Percy Spender MP, who was involved with bringing into existence the ANZUS treaty. How did that affect you growing up? Do you think that was subtly preparing you for a life in politics?

I'm going to rewind way, way back now to to your childhood. Now, you grew up in a very political family. Your father was a federal MP. Your grandfather was a very eminent Sir Percy Spender MP, who was involved with bringing into existence the ANZUS treaty. How did that affect you growing up? Do you think that was subtly preparing you for a life in politics?

Look, it's funny, I you know, when you're a kid, I think you look at your family and you think your family's how everybody else's family is. And I think growing up, you know, with my dad and politics is just like, oh, that's just another job that some people do. And he does that.

Look, it's funny, I you know, when you're a kid, I think you look at your family and you think your family's how everybody else's family is. And I think growing up, you know, with my dad and politics is just like, oh, that's just another job that some people do. And he does that.

He went out door knocking with him.

He went out door knocking with him.

Yeah, I did, you know, I did some of those things with him. I remember going door knocking with him and just being so shy and embarrassed. Basically, I hung out by the sort of, I think, the front of the paths while dad went up to the door, you know, and I remember vividly when he lost his seat, actually, when I was about 12 years old and someone on the.

Yeah, I did, you know, I did some of those things with him. I remember going door knocking with him and just being so shy and embarrassed. Basically, I hung out by the sort of, I think, the front of the paths while dad went up to the door, you know, and I remember vividly when he lost his seat, actually, when I was about 12 years old and someone on the.

Bus told you.

Bus told you.

About that. Yeah. Well, actually, one of my one of my friends, um, her dad worked in the Labour Party, and she said to me on this excursion bus, she said, my dad says your dad's going to lose his seat. And I was like, oh, what's that about? I didn't realise, you know, that that was going to happen. So I think, um, I guess what it did for me was it opened my mind to, you know, public service and about what are the issues facing the country as well as what are the issues facing a family. And, you know, I never lost that interest, to be honest, on how do you how do you make a country better, how do you make the world better? And I think that probably sparked that, but I didn't expect really, I'll be honest, um, to be in the situation I'm in right now.

About that. Yeah. Well, actually, one of my one of my friends, um, her dad worked in the Labour Party, and she said to me on this excursion bus, she said, my dad says your dad's going to lose his seat. And I was like, oh, what's that about? I didn't realise, you know, that that was going to happen. So I think, um, I guess what it did for me was it opened my mind to, you know, public service and about what are the issues facing the country as well as what are the issues facing a family. And, you know, I never lost that interest, to be honest, on how do you how do you make a country better, how do you make the world better? And I think that probably sparked that, but I didn't expect really, I'll be honest, um, to be in the situation I'm in right now.

And of course, your dad was a bit worried about you going into politics in the first place, although he eventually came round. Did that put you off that he was initially so very opposed to it?

And of course, your dad was a bit worried about you going into politics in the first place, although he eventually came round. Did that put you off that he was initially so very opposed to it?

Look, I remember, you know, I remember getting his email going, which was was not very supportive. And well, it was I think it was very loving but really concerned. And, you know, I was a bit I was I would have loved him to sort of be, hey, this is a great idea. But at that time I still wasn't sure either. So, you know, it was a bit of a journey for both of us, I think, to make.

Look, I remember, you know, I remember getting his email going, which was was not very supportive. And well, it was I think it was very loving but really concerned. And, you know, I was a bit I was I would have loved him to sort of be, hey, this is a great idea. But at that time I still wasn't sure either. So, you know, it was a bit of a journey for both of us, I think, to make.

30, 30 plus reasons that he gave, and he.

30, 30 plus reasons that he gave, and he.

Gave me a lot of reasons why it wasn't, uh, some pretty dramatic, but it's, you know, I think it came from a position of love and of, you know, concern about, you know, making such a big and public. And, you know, he knew it would be a public fight. And, um, you know, I think you have that natural concern for your kids. But, you know, in the end, he was hugely supportive because I think he reflected a lot on how far the Liberal Party today was from the Liberal Party that he, you know, supported. And I think ultimately he just decided that, you know, he didn't see they were going to change on the inside. Um, and that was, I think, one of the reasons why he politically supported it as well.

Gave me a lot of reasons why it wasn't, uh, some pretty dramatic, but it's, you know, I think it came from a position of love and of, you know, concern about, you know, making such a big and public. And, you know, he knew it would be a public fight. And, um, you know, I think you have that natural concern for your kids. But, you know, in the end, he was hugely supportive because I think he reflected a lot on how far the Liberal Party today was from the Liberal Party that he, you know, supported. And I think ultimately he just decided that, you know, he didn't see they were going to change on the inside. Um, and that was, I think, one of the reasons why he politically supported it as well.

Let's talk briefly about your mother, Carla Zampatti, who was an amazing force around Sydney who sadly passed away about six months before you declared you were you were going to run. You've described to me as have your brother and sister how you were all forced, sort of forced child labour. I use that term advisedly in her business for all through school, that while your friends were going up to the shops or the beach, you were you were all working away in her office. Um, how did you feel about that at the time? And what did it? What did it give you?

Let's talk briefly about your mother, Carla Zampatti, who was an amazing force around Sydney who sadly passed away about six months before you declared you were you were going to run. You've described to me as have your brother and sister how you were all forced, sort of forced child labour. I use that term advisedly in her business for all through school, that while your friends were going up to the shops or the beach, you were you were all working away in her office. Um, how did you feel about that at the time? And what did it? What did it give you?

Look, I, I.

Look, I, I.

Genuinely, I think almost always actually really enjoyed it. And you know mum, you know, mum had come from very different circumstances. She, you know, came out as an immigrant at 11 years old, didn't speak English, left school at 14. Um, really, you know, built everything from the ground up. And she wanted us to understand how hard she had to work and how difficult it was to run a business, but also what a joy it was. And and she wanted us to be independent. She wanted us to, you know, be able to rely on ourselves. And I think, you know, as a kid working in an office, you actually when you're doing kind of grown up things, you think, oh, I can I'm capable, I can do grown up things, I can actually make a contribution. And I think that's what she wanted us to learn. And, you know, and that is what I took from it. And, you know, it gave me a completely different appreciation of work. You know, I saw, you know, in our business, we, you know, have manufacturing, you know, we have all sorts of parts of the business. So I understood a business, you know, from, from end to end. You know, I worked with people from all sorts of different perspectives, different education, all those things. And so it made me, I think, a better person and certainly gave me a great appreciation from business. So I absolutely loved it.

Genuinely, I think almost always actually really enjoyed it. And you know mum, you know, mum had come from very different circumstances. She, you know, came out as an immigrant at 11 years old, didn't speak English, left school at 14. Um, really, you know, built everything from the ground up. And she wanted us to understand how hard she had to work and how difficult it was to run a business, but also what a joy it was. And and she wanted us to be independent. She wanted us to, you know, be able to rely on ourselves. And I think, you know, as a kid working in an office, you actually when you're doing kind of grown up things, you think, oh, I can I'm capable, I can do grown up things, I can actually make a contribution. And I think that's what she wanted us to learn. And, you know, and that is what I took from it. And, you know, it gave me a completely different appreciation of work. You know, I saw, you know, in our business, we, you know, have manufacturing, you know, we have all sorts of parts of the business. So I understood a business, you know, from, from end to end. You know, I worked with people from all sorts of different perspectives, different education, all those things. And so it made me, I think, a better person and certainly gave me a great appreciation from business. So I absolutely loved it.

Let's move to the topic of family and politics now. You made it very clear to me, before we sat down to undertake this project, that you did not want your children named in this particular article, and I initially pushed back because I knew there had been named in a number of other places earlier. What has changed your view about that? I think at one point you'd even named them yourself publicly. But we won't talk about where. But what's changed for you? Is there a is there a sense? And I do note here that Keir Starmer in the UK has taken a bit of a similar approach to the privacy of his children?

Let's move to the topic of family and politics now. You made it very clear to me, before we sat down to undertake this project, that you did not want your children named in this particular article, and I initially pushed back because I knew there had been named in a number of other places earlier. What has changed your view about that? I think at one point you'd even named them yourself publicly. But we won't talk about where. But what's changed for you? Is there a is there a sense? And I do note here that Keir Starmer in the UK has taken a bit of a similar approach to the privacy of his children?

Look, I think.

Look, I think.

Privacy has always been important and I think it's harder to protect now than ever. And I think it's probably something I'm a bit clearer on now than ever that my kids are in primary school, they're young, they can't make their choices, but But if I make choices for them, they will. This will stick with them, you know, and I think this is a question of, you know, giving kids their childhood and giving kids their privacy.

Privacy has always been important and I think it's harder to protect now than ever. And I think it's probably something I'm a bit clearer on now than ever that my kids are in primary school, they're young, they can't make their choices, but But if I make choices for them, they will. This will stick with them, you know, and I think this is a question of, you know, giving kids their childhood and giving kids their privacy.

Do you think there is also a sense of growing? Um, I hesitate to use the word menace, but I note that we've had a few politicians on the on the coalition side talking about their concern that the atmosphere in Australia is getting increasingly sort of polarized in a very public way. Do you have any sense that politicians are at any greater risk of being targeted than than they were, say, you know, 2 or 3 years ago, and I guess October 7th feeds into that?

Do you think there is also a sense of growing? Um, I hesitate to use the word menace, but I note that we've had a few politicians on the on the coalition side talking about their concern that the atmosphere in Australia is getting increasingly sort of polarized in a very public way. Do you have any sense that politicians are at any greater risk of being targeted than than they were, say, you know, 2 or 3 years ago, and I guess October 7th feeds into that?

Yeah. I think, um, you know, you can't you look at what happens in the US and also the UK and, and go, look, you don't want that here. And as a country we've never had that. Um, but at the same time, you know, I am really disturbed, I'll be honest about, you know, some of the blockades of, of offices and things like that. I just don't I don't think that's how our democracy really thrives. So, you know, I do worry about that a bit. Not a great deal. Um, but it is another reason just to keep, um, I think your private life, you know, to yourself.

Yeah. I think, um, you know, you can't you look at what happens in the US and also the UK and, and go, look, you don't want that here. And as a country we've never had that. Um, but at the same time, you know, I am really disturbed, I'll be honest about, you know, some of the blockades of, of offices and things like that. I just don't I don't think that's how our democracy really thrives. So, you know, I do worry about that a bit. Not a great deal. Um, but it is another reason just to keep, um, I think your private life, you know, to yourself.

I know you're a fan of the UK podcast. The rest is Politics. Uh, for anyone who hasn't listened to it, it's worth a listen. And a couple of very experienced political hands from the UK who have a very lively discussion every week about politics, not just in Britain but around the world. But they have talked quite a bit about, I think, what Alastair Campbell calls the three P's populism, post-truth and polarization. I've noticed you have picked this up in a couple of your recent speeches that I heard. What is the risk there, and what is the solution in an increasingly sort of polarized political environment?

I know you're a fan of the UK podcast. The rest is Politics. Uh, for anyone who hasn't listened to it, it's worth a listen. And a couple of very experienced political hands from the UK who have a very lively discussion every week about politics, not just in Britain but around the world. But they have talked quite a bit about, I think, what Alastair Campbell calls the three P's populism, post-truth and polarization. I've noticed you have picked this up in a couple of your recent speeches that I heard. What is the risk there, and what is the solution in an increasingly sort of polarized political environment?

Look, I think, um, you know, I think there are a lot of, uh, factors driving us towards populism, post-truth and polarization. And I think the sort of rise of social media, you know, and, and sort of the echo chamber piece is, is certainly a part of this. And, you know, I, I really concerned about a community where we cannot have difficult conversations in a way that in a civilized way where we still retain our relationships. And, you know, that really worries me. And so, you know, the antidote is not simple. I think it's a couple of things. One is I think it is investing in the community, to be honest, because when community have good relationships with each other, when communities can can talk and discuss and, you know, just amongst ourselves, you know, we can, you know, retain friendships when we're, um, you know, where we where we don't agree on all things, then we have a greater chance of, of, um, holding ourselves together. But also, you know, when, when the body, you know, the civil community is active politically because I think if you're inactive, if you're only dialing in to the end and you know, you're not really looking at the nuance of the policy and the political debate, you know, then you become a passenger and you're much more susceptible, I think, to some of these extreme pieces. So I think it's in it's actually it's up to all of us as citizens. It's also up to us as politicians, um, to make sure that we, we talk about the nuance and, you know, we don't drive that polarization. And, you know, I do see that polarization being driven here in in Australia. And I'm trying to fight against it, um, through trying to have reasoned, nuanced conversations about difficult topics, because that is our greatest, um, you know, greatest, I think, barrier to that. Plus, we need to invest, I think, in, in the media and the media needs to meet people where they are as well.

Look, I think, um, you know, I think there are a lot of, uh, factors driving us towards populism, post-truth and polarization. And I think the sort of rise of social media, you know, and, and sort of the echo chamber piece is, is certainly a part of this. And, you know, I, I really concerned about a community where we cannot have difficult conversations in a way that in a civilized way where we still retain our relationships. And, you know, that really worries me. And so, you know, the antidote is not simple. I think it's a couple of things. One is I think it is investing in the community, to be honest, because when community have good relationships with each other, when communities can can talk and discuss and, you know, just amongst ourselves, you know, we can, you know, retain friendships when we're, um, you know, where we where we don't agree on all things, then we have a greater chance of, of, um, holding ourselves together. But also, you know, when, when the body, you know, the civil community is active politically because I think if you're inactive, if you're only dialing in to the end and you know, you're not really looking at the nuance of the policy and the political debate, you know, then you become a passenger and you're much more susceptible, I think, to some of these extreme pieces. So I think it's in it's actually it's up to all of us as citizens. It's also up to us as politicians, um, to make sure that we, we talk about the nuance and, you know, we don't drive that polarization. And, you know, I do see that polarization being driven here in in Australia. And I'm trying to fight against it, um, through trying to have reasoned, nuanced conversations about difficult topics, because that is our greatest, um, you know, greatest, I think, barrier to that. Plus, we need to invest, I think, in, in the media and the media needs to meet people where they are as well.

Speaking of, um, uh, polarization or not, have you made any uh, unlikely friendships in the parliament? Uh, people on the other side?

Speaking of, um, uh, polarization or not, have you made any uh, unlikely friendships in the parliament? Uh, people on the other side?

Look, we.

Look, we.

Actually I live with a couple of other MPs, and we sometimes have what we call rainbow dinners.

Actually I live with a couple of other MPs, and we sometimes have what we call rainbow dinners.

Now, that's with Monique Ryan and, uh, Kate Cheney and Kate Cheney, two fellow so-called teals. Yeah.

Now, that's with Monique Ryan and, uh, Kate Cheney and Kate Cheney, two fellow so-called teals. Yeah.

So, yeah. And so we sometimes have what we call, um, rainbow dinners where we have a, you know, a member of the nationals, liberals, you know, Greens and Labor all together or, you know, and I think, you know, I'm partly just trying to build personal relationships because, you know, you can find common ground, I think with everybody. Not on all issues though. Um, so no, I think, um, you know, like I'd say Di Li, for example, uh, you know, I'm very fond of di. Her migrant story, her refugee story, um, resonates with me and my mum's experience, and I think a lot about her community, um, you know, in particular, a very different community to mine. Um, but but also really important. You know, I have a, you know, good working relationship with Jacqui Lambie like different, you know, with parts of we see things differently. But you know, you can work with people, you know across the across the field. And you know, again, you know, I've worked very closely with Julie and Lisa and Josh Burns on around anti-Semitism, really pushing, you know, successfully for now, the antisemitism envoy and other things. So, you know, I just I actually like that I like that ability to build relationships with different people.

So, yeah. And so we sometimes have what we call, um, rainbow dinners where we have a, you know, a member of the nationals, liberals, you know, Greens and Labor all together or, you know, and I think, you know, I'm partly just trying to build personal relationships because, you know, you can find common ground, I think with everybody. Not on all issues though. Um, so no, I think, um, you know, like I'd say Di Li, for example, uh, you know, I'm very fond of di. Her migrant story, her refugee story, um, resonates with me and my mum's experience, and I think a lot about her community, um, you know, in particular, a very different community to mine. Um, but but also really important. You know, I have a, you know, good working relationship with Jacqui Lambie like different, you know, with parts of we see things differently. But you know, you can work with people, you know across the across the field. And you know, again, you know, I've worked very closely with Julie and Lisa and Josh Burns on around anti-Semitism, really pushing, you know, successfully for now, the antisemitism envoy and other things. So, you know, I just I actually like that I like that ability to build relationships with different people.

The Australian Energy Market Operator is suggesting there's going to be gas shortages on the East Coast. You're very down on, uh, both Peter Dutton's nuclear policy and also the extent of Labor's gas expansion plans. What makes you so confident that your right to say we don't need to be expanding gas supply?

The Australian Energy Market Operator is suggesting there's going to be gas shortages on the East Coast. You're very down on, uh, both Peter Dutton's nuclear policy and also the extent of Labor's gas expansion plans. What makes you so confident that your right to say we don't need to be expanding gas supply?

Look, I think that we need to, you know, gas is part of the transition. Absolutely. And I'm really clear about that. But I think, um, you know, gas is also a fossil fuel. And if we are going to what our goal is to minimize fossil fuels, um, and in this transition and, and that's super important. So I think people often overstate or overestimate how much gas is role is. In our current electricity market. It's only 5% of the East Coast electricity market at the moment. And even Aimo also suggests that that is actually going to be falling. And so yes, we need gas as a transition fuel. But, you know, to be all out saying, you know, gas, you know, we expanding gas beyond 2050, that doesn't make sense. This is a fuel that we need to minimize.

Look, I think that we need to, you know, gas is part of the transition. Absolutely. And I'm really clear about that. But I think, um, you know, gas is also a fossil fuel. And if we are going to what our goal is to minimize fossil fuels, um, and in this transition and, and that's super important. So I think people often overstate or overestimate how much gas is role is. In our current electricity market. It's only 5% of the East Coast electricity market at the moment. And even Aimo also suggests that that is actually going to be falling. And so yes, we need gas as a transition fuel. But, you know, to be all out saying, you know, gas, you know, we expanding gas beyond 2050, that doesn't make sense. This is a fuel that we need to minimize.

Which is in my labor policy.

Which is in my labor policy.

Documents. Exactly right. That's where the Labour policy is going. And in terms of nuclear, again, I'm really I'm actually technologically technologically agnostic when it comes to this transition, you know. But it has to it has to work from a point of view of urgency, because we know that the next ten years really counts. It has to work in terms of economics as well, because, you know, we can't waste money in this transition. It will cost us money. Let's make sure we every dollar we spend is the most effective dollar spent. And so from a numbers point of view, from an urgency point of view and from a cost point of view, and just frankly, the risk of cost blowout point of view for nuclear, it just doesn't make sense for this country.

Documents. Exactly right. That's where the Labour policy is going. And in terms of nuclear, again, I'm really I'm actually technologically technologically agnostic when it comes to this transition, you know. But it has to it has to work from a point of view of urgency, because we know that the next ten years really counts. It has to work in terms of economics as well, because, you know, we can't waste money in this transition. It will cost us money. Let's make sure we every dollar we spend is the most effective dollar spent. And so from a numbers point of view, from an urgency point of view and from a cost point of view, and just frankly, the risk of cost blowout point of view for nuclear, it just doesn't make sense for this country.

Is it surprising to you that we're having the climate wars yet again?

Is it surprising to you that we're having the climate wars yet again?

Uh, someone once said to me, you know, um, you know, that a party needs to, to sort of lose two elections over something before they get over it. And, you know, I don't know if that's what Dutton's trying to do is, you know, I don't know, honestly, why he's taking your cues from the from the National Party in terms of, you know, this policy in terms of the voice and so many other areas. Um, because it is a far cry from the sort of Liberal party, you know, that certainly my family grew up with, you know, Liberal Party is about markets. It's about, you know, it's about the private sector. It's about being sort of economically rational in its decision making. And again, when I when I look at where they're going with this, I just don't think that that makes sense. You know, sort of big public infrastructure, um, programs that, you know, have a risk of cost blowout, which are enormous. Um, it's just really of huge concern to me.

Uh, someone once said to me, you know, um, you know, that a party needs to, to sort of lose two elections over something before they get over it. And, you know, I don't know if that's what Dutton's trying to do is, you know, I don't know, honestly, why he's taking your cues from the from the National Party in terms of, you know, this policy in terms of the voice and so many other areas. Um, because it is a far cry from the sort of Liberal party, you know, that certainly my family grew up with, you know, Liberal Party is about markets. It's about, you know, it's about the private sector. It's about being sort of economically rational in its decision making. And again, when I when I look at where they're going with this, I just don't think that that makes sense. You know, sort of big public infrastructure, um, programs that, you know, have a risk of cost blowout, which are enormous. Um, it's just really of huge concern to me.

It's going to finish on a lighter note, Allegra, um, when I came to see you at home to interview the first time, there were some striking paintings in your lounge room and you had done those paintings. Tell us about painting and what it has meant to you. I know you said you haven't painted since your second child. Is it something you'll go back to?

It's going to finish on a lighter note, Allegra, um, when I came to see you at home to interview the first time, there were some striking paintings in your lounge room and you had done those paintings. Tell us about painting and what it has meant to you. I know you said you haven't painted since your second child. Is it something you'll go back to?

Look, I'd love to go back to it.

Look, I'd love to go back to it.

And I always painted.

And I always painted.

Portraits, and.

Portraits, and.

I liked portraits because I like people. I like to look at their faces. I'm interested in how you can convey their inner thoughts through that. And also I'm really fascinated about how many the effect of light on people's skin. It's really fascinating to me. So I always love painting pictures. But frankly, you know, with young kids and messy oils, I have not yet found an opportunity to go back to it. So maybe after this job.

I liked portraits because I like people. I like to look at their faces. I'm interested in how you can convey their inner thoughts through that. And also I'm really fascinated about how many the effect of light on people's skin. It's really fascinating to me. So I always love painting pictures. But frankly, you know, with young kids and messy oils, I have not yet found an opportunity to go back to it. So maybe after this job.

Allegra, thank you very, very much for your time, and thanks for joining us on good Weekend Talks.

Allegra, thank you very, very much for your time, and thanks for joining us on good Weekend Talks.

Thanks so much for having me.

Thanks so much for having me.

Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Chai Wong, editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.

Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Chai Wong, editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.