Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak to the Chinese Australian dissident artist Badiucao. Born in Shanghai, he's been an Australian citizen for a decade and lives in Melbourne, where he draws for The Age, winning a Walkley Award for his work just last year. But he speaks to us today about being followed and threatened, which came to a head this year when an imposter claiming to be him turned up to a Chinese dissident event in Melbourne. He also speaks to us about the difficulty of making and showing art around the world, and the reason why no Australian galleries will show his work. His troubling story is revealed in his own words in the pages of Good Weekend this week under the headline The Long Arm, and was told to the host of our episode this week, the opinion Editor, Patrick O'Neill.

Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we speak to the Chinese Australian dissident artist Badiucao. Born in Shanghai, he's been an Australian citizen for a decade and lives in Melbourne, where he draws for The Age, winning a Walkley Award for his work just last year. But he speaks to us today about being followed and threatened, which came to a head this year when an imposter claiming to be him turned up to a Chinese dissident event in Melbourne. He also speaks to us about the difficulty of making and showing art around the world, and the reason why no Australian galleries will show his work. His troubling story is revealed in his own words in the pages of Good Weekend this week under the headline The Long Arm, and was told to the host of our episode this week, the opinion Editor, Patrick O'Neill.

Thanks, Conrad, and welcome back. So you've been an illustrator for The Age for nearly three years now, but I think few of our readers would know your incredible life story. Can you start by telling us when you arrived in Australia and why you decided to move here from Shanghai?

Thanks, Conrad, and welcome back. So you've been an illustrator for The Age for nearly three years now, but I think few of our readers would know your incredible life story. Can you start by telling us when you arrived in Australia and why you decided to move here from Shanghai?

Um, well, it's great to be here. It's great to be Australia. So yeah, it has been a journey for me to, uh, left China, uh, more than ten years ago. And obviously the one of the most important reasons is finding a place that I can, you know, live freely as as a person and become an artist without the fear that, you know, my work can get me into trouble. Obviously, I'm bitter naive to say that, but at least that was the major motivation for me to leave China by the time, because I think in a democracy I have to become a citizen for that democratic system or country, that I shall be protected and enjoy my freedom.

Um, well, it's great to be here. It's great to be Australia. So yeah, it has been a journey for me to, uh, left China, uh, more than ten years ago. And obviously the one of the most important reasons is finding a place that I can, you know, live freely as as a person and become an artist without the fear that, you know, my work can get me into trouble. Obviously, I'm bitter naive to say that, but at least that was the major motivation for me to leave China by the time, because I think in a democracy I have to become a citizen for that democratic system or country, that I shall be protected and enjoy my freedom.

So you arrived in Australia in 2009 before then? What was it like growing up in Shanghai, and what was your family's history with the Chinese Communist Party?

So you arrived in Australia in 2009 before then? What was it like growing up in Shanghai, and what was your family's history with the Chinese Communist Party?

Well, it's it's a sad story because I'm actually born in a very artistic family. My grandpa and his brother were the first group of filmmakers in China, been very active in the 1930s until 1957, when the Chinese Communist Party is in power and they start to launch this campaign against intellectuals and artists. That's when my grandpa and his brother get into trouble, because there, you know, films. And both of them actually got killed during the campaign. My grandpa was sent to a forced labor camp in the rural area in China, and we believe he died because of starvation and sickness. And my grandpa's brother, great uncle, he actually committed suicide due to the political persecution and unbearable life. So for me, as you can imagine, I'm growing up in such family. And they're also making my dad an orphan when he was really young. So when I came to this world, my dad's advice to me is don't be an artist Rest or don't do anything too intellectual or close to politics or culture, because that was what got your grandparents get killed. So apparently growing up in such an environment is kind of harsh. Um, because I do feel like I have the talent and desire to express in form of art, but that's not something that my family would like me to do. Um, so yeah, my dad always kind of joking, saying, you know, don't be an artist body. I would rather you to be a barber or a chef. Um, so you can survive with your life skills without the trouble of all the, you know, political horror that my grandparents have been through. But apparently, um, he underestimated the rebel from a teenage. The more you know, you're told not to do. The strong desire that grow in me to actually try it. Um, so yeah, growing China is an experience of kind of shadowed by my family history. But in the same time, I also feel very proud that once upon a time, my great generation in China were very successful and creative, and I always look up to them and I want to be a person like them.

Well, it's it's a sad story because I'm actually born in a very artistic family. My grandpa and his brother were the first group of filmmakers in China, been very active in the 1930s until 1957, when the Chinese Communist Party is in power and they start to launch this campaign against intellectuals and artists. That's when my grandpa and his brother get into trouble, because there, you know, films. And both of them actually got killed during the campaign. My grandpa was sent to a forced labor camp in the rural area in China, and we believe he died because of starvation and sickness. And my grandpa's brother, great uncle, he actually committed suicide due to the political persecution and unbearable life. So for me, as you can imagine, I'm growing up in such family. And they're also making my dad an orphan when he was really young. So when I came to this world, my dad's advice to me is don't be an artist Rest or don't do anything too intellectual or close to politics or culture, because that was what got your grandparents get killed. So apparently growing up in such an environment is kind of harsh. Um, because I do feel like I have the talent and desire to express in form of art, but that's not something that my family would like me to do. Um, so yeah, my dad always kind of joking, saying, you know, don't be an artist body. I would rather you to be a barber or a chef. Um, so you can survive with your life skills without the trouble of all the, you know, political horror that my grandparents have been through. But apparently, um, he underestimated the rebel from a teenage. The more you know, you're told not to do. The strong desire that grow in me to actually try it. Um, so yeah, growing China is an experience of kind of shadowed by my family history. But in the same time, I also feel very proud that once upon a time, my great generation in China were very successful and creative, and I always look up to them and I want to be a person like them.

And that was the the 100 Flowers Bloom campaign, where your your grandfather was affected. Is that right? In the 50s? Yes, yes. Uh, but, uh, look, I know Australian parents here too, don't want their children to become artists for different reasons. Perhaps. Uh, but you first studied to become a lawyer, is that right?

And that was the the 100 Flowers Bloom campaign, where your your grandfather was affected. Is that right? In the 50s? Yes, yes. Uh, but, uh, look, I know Australian parents here too, don't want their children to become artists for different reasons. Perhaps. Uh, but you first studied to become a lawyer, is that right?

So I studied in the law school. Um, I was studying the law of copyrights, you know, a bit of touch about culture, but it's also kind of in the safe zone of it. But, um, I know that if I go to that, um, route, I will have a very fixed life in China. I can see the end of my life, which is getting a job, having the burden of apartment mortgage in Shanghai, and that's it. My life is fixed, and I will never be aligned to chase my dreams. So, yeah, it's not something that I really want.

So I studied in the law school. Um, I was studying the law of copyrights, you know, a bit of touch about culture, but it's also kind of in the safe zone of it. But, um, I know that if I go to that, um, route, I will have a very fixed life in China. I can see the end of my life, which is getting a job, having the burden of apartment mortgage in Shanghai, and that's it. My life is fixed, and I will never be aligned to chase my dreams. So, yeah, it's not something that I really want.

So instead, you. You came to Australia. So? So tell me about that. What did you do when you arrived in Australia?

So instead, you. You came to Australia. So? So tell me about that. What did you do when you arrived in Australia?

Um, so obviously it's a long plan to staying here, even though we are immigration country. But the system is also very complex and full of struggle. So, uh, long story short, Australia only needs people here to do the job that the locals don't want to do. And you have majors like teaching, which is hard work and low payment and other things. So I came here to study as a as a teacher for master's degree for two years. Then I worked for two years until I have the permanent visa and lately joined the citizenship. And that's when I finally, finally can, you know, decide where my life can go. But those are the time, uh, a very precious 4 to 5 years of my great youth to to just achieve a life status that I can stay here. But I'm still grateful that I can be reborn in this country and finally chasing my dream.

Um, so obviously it's a long plan to staying here, even though we are immigration country. But the system is also very complex and full of struggle. So, uh, long story short, Australia only needs people here to do the job that the locals don't want to do. And you have majors like teaching, which is hard work and low payment and other things. So I came here to study as a as a teacher for master's degree for two years. Then I worked for two years until I have the permanent visa and lately joined the citizenship. And that's when I finally, finally can, you know, decide where my life can go. But those are the time, uh, a very precious 4 to 5 years of my great youth to to just achieve a life status that I can stay here. But I'm still grateful that I can be reborn in this country and finally chasing my dream.

That's great. And so then you. You started creating art because you finally felt free. You finally felt protected. And now that you're in Australia, could you briefly describe your your style or what what kind of art do you create?

That's great. And so then you. You started creating art because you finally felt free. You finally felt protected. And now that you're in Australia, could you briefly describe your your style or what what kind of art do you create?

Um, so my art is very much about the topic of human rights record from China and gradually expanding to political content, human rights issues around the world, also in Australia as well, because I am grow up in such family environment that I know how a political system could infect a family and in fact destroying it. And obviously, I always believe artist has to be very truthful to our life, because those things that we created is a mirror of what we've been living through. And for me, it's very naturally to putting my art around the topic of human rights and political system, and in hope that one day these things can be exposed and the system can be changed. I really believe that art is an extra form of language that we use to identify ourselves. Um, you know, modern philosophy always defined that language is not just a tool. It's actually something that defines us. Um, it's it's actually that, you know, what we think is, is in form of language and art is our language is beyond just written or spoken words, but visual or other sensory. So speaking about that matter is also a recreating process of myself through those art. Um, I started to posting like political satire and artwork for social media regarding China for my very early, um, practice. But then I starting to adapting more different styles, not just in form of political cartooning, but installation, performance art and all sorts.

Um, so my art is very much about the topic of human rights record from China and gradually expanding to political content, human rights issues around the world, also in Australia as well, because I am grow up in such family environment that I know how a political system could infect a family and in fact destroying it. And obviously, I always believe artist has to be very truthful to our life, because those things that we created is a mirror of what we've been living through. And for me, it's very naturally to putting my art around the topic of human rights and political system, and in hope that one day these things can be exposed and the system can be changed. I really believe that art is an extra form of language that we use to identify ourselves. Um, you know, modern philosophy always defined that language is not just a tool. It's actually something that defines us. Um, it's it's actually that, you know, what we think is, is in form of language and art is our language is beyond just written or spoken words, but visual or other sensory. So speaking about that matter is also a recreating process of myself through those art. Um, I started to posting like political satire and artwork for social media regarding China for my very early, um, practice. But then I starting to adapting more different styles, not just in form of political cartooning, but installation, performance art and all sorts.

And I mean, your work is critical of the of China's government. Um, you know, you depict XI Jinping in a lot of your imagery. What happened when you started sharing that on social media? Where did you first share it on social media and what were the consequences?

And I mean, your work is critical of the of China's government. Um, you know, you depict XI Jinping in a lot of your imagery. What happened when you started sharing that on social media? Where did you first share it on social media and what were the consequences?

So I actually started to posting my work on Weibo, which is a Chinese equivalent to, um, Twitter. Um, about 13 years ago. Um, well, I started just as a hobby. Um, because as you can imagine, when social media just got invented to get popular in the society, even for authoritarian government like China, it's a new thing for them. And they needed time to adapt to apply the censorship and the control. But you have this very brief window that people really jump on the platform and express whatever they like. So that was the time, probably just before XI Jinping is in power, and we can see almost like a spring on the internet that suddenly netizens from China are getting on the platform and making their expression on all kinds of social issues and conflicts. And that inspired me and encouraged me to, to to be a part of it. So that's my initial motivation to draw, because I think compared with, you know, written or, you know, language form, my strength is always drawing and my hobby is always in this drawing form. So I started making political cartoons very naturally. Uh, but obviously this spring ends very fast, um, as the CCP or China's Communist Party realizing social media can be such a threat to its control. And also in the same time they having the time to develop a set of tools very efficiently, censoring not just words, but also images online. And that's when I feel like the platform in China is no longer really useful. When my Weibo account got deleted for 37 times and and as you can imagine, how a struggle that I'll be. So after that, I basically become a refugee on social media from China and migrant to, um, Twitter. Uh, well, I have to say that is a Twitter before X. So again, I know the new trend is escaping from Twitter to blue sky for a more free platform, but that was a story before. So I started being more active on Twitter and started gaining a bigger platform like audiences and a chance to post for other medias as well.

So I actually started to posting my work on Weibo, which is a Chinese equivalent to, um, Twitter. Um, about 13 years ago. Um, well, I started just as a hobby. Um, because as you can imagine, when social media just got invented to get popular in the society, even for authoritarian government like China, it's a new thing for them. And they needed time to adapt to apply the censorship and the control. But you have this very brief window that people really jump on the platform and express whatever they like. So that was the time, probably just before XI Jinping is in power, and we can see almost like a spring on the internet that suddenly netizens from China are getting on the platform and making their expression on all kinds of social issues and conflicts. And that inspired me and encouraged me to, to to be a part of it. So that's my initial motivation to draw, because I think compared with, you know, written or, you know, language form, my strength is always drawing and my hobby is always in this drawing form. So I started making political cartoons very naturally. Uh, but obviously this spring ends very fast, um, as the CCP or China's Communist Party realizing social media can be such a threat to its control. And also in the same time they having the time to develop a set of tools very efficiently, censoring not just words, but also images online. And that's when I feel like the platform in China is no longer really useful. When my Weibo account got deleted for 37 times and and as you can imagine, how a struggle that I'll be. So after that, I basically become a refugee on social media from China and migrant to, um, Twitter. Uh, well, I have to say that is a Twitter before X. So again, I know the new trend is escaping from Twitter to blue sky for a more free platform, but that was a story before. So I started being more active on Twitter and started gaining a bigger platform like audiences and a chance to post for other medias as well.

And most artists would love to be well known and recognized, but you just you go by one name. It's not your your birth name. No. But also, why is that? Why did you choose a pseudonym and how?

And most artists would love to be well known and recognized, but you just you go by one name. It's not your your birth name. No. But also, why is that? Why did you choose a pseudonym and how?

Um, well, obviously there's a certain price you have to pay if you want to be a free artist in China. Um, and the price is you get, uh, arrested by the authorities once they find your art is being very critical to the government. So from the very beginning, I know it will not be safe for me to use my legal name. It will just give away for the Chinese police to find me out and basically cut off my art career too soon. So I have to create a persona, a creator identity. And obviously I also don't want to use a name that can be associated to my real life. So the best way to do it is just, you know, learning from the data isn't truly randomly picking words from a book. So the first three character bar detail is the words that I find from a Chinese book. And and it just became my name. Um, I think if we see it in a more poetic way, you can say from the very beginning, I want to create this persona that has no background, just ordinary individual. But then I use my art to fulfill the identity of it, to make this character alive, to show the world that anybody can do this and it doesn't need to have a, you know, a very strong background or special backstory, and you can do that as well, but in the same time giving me a layer of protection for me to hide from the police as long as possible.

Um, well, obviously there's a certain price you have to pay if you want to be a free artist in China. Um, and the price is you get, uh, arrested by the authorities once they find your art is being very critical to the government. So from the very beginning, I know it will not be safe for me to use my legal name. It will just give away for the Chinese police to find me out and basically cut off my art career too soon. So I have to create a persona, a creator identity. And obviously I also don't want to use a name that can be associated to my real life. So the best way to do it is just, you know, learning from the data isn't truly randomly picking words from a book. So the first three character bar detail is the words that I find from a Chinese book. And and it just became my name. Um, I think if we see it in a more poetic way, you can say from the very beginning, I want to create this persona that has no background, just ordinary individual. But then I use my art to fulfill the identity of it, to make this character alive, to show the world that anybody can do this and it doesn't need to have a, you know, a very strong background or special backstory, and you can do that as well, but in the same time giving me a layer of protection for me to hide from the police as long as possible.

And at this time, you were receiving a lot of messages of abuse on social media. Is that right? Yeah. And so the Chinese government didn't know who you were. But can you tell me about the sort of messages you were receiving?

And at this time, you were receiving a lot of messages of abuse on social media. Is that right? Yeah. And so the Chinese government didn't know who you were. But can you tell me about the sort of messages you were receiving?

Um, well, this kind of harassment is non-stop on my social media for a very long time, whether it's Twitter or Instagram. So what they do majorly come from two channels. One is from direct message. You know, my box is always full. It's always this as a consultation or even death threat. Um, non-stop. But on the public side, they were creating a lot of character assassination by defamation, saying, you know, I'm not talented, I'm a criminal in China and escape to Australia. That's why I hate China and creating those critical content. Um, so yeah, that's what they do when they cannot. Denying your talents and your art. They try to deny your identity and make story about your personal life and things like that.

Um, well, this kind of harassment is non-stop on my social media for a very long time, whether it's Twitter or Instagram. So what they do majorly come from two channels. One is from direct message. You know, my box is always full. It's always this as a consultation or even death threat. Um, non-stop. But on the public side, they were creating a lot of character assassination by defamation, saying, you know, I'm not talented, I'm a criminal in China and escape to Australia. That's why I hate China and creating those critical content. Um, so yeah, that's what they do when they cannot. Denying your talents and your art. They try to deny your identity and make story about your personal life and things like that.

And so throughout this time, your profile was growing online. You started to be written about in international publications in America and and Europe. Your work started being published in some of these publications. In 2018, you were set to have a major exhibition in Hong Kong. As a result of all this exposure, how did you come to be involved in the exhibition and what happened?

And so throughout this time, your profile was growing online. You started to be written about in international publications in America and and Europe. Your work started being published in some of these publications. In 2018, you were set to have a major exhibition in Hong Kong. As a result of all this exposure, how did you come to be involved in the exhibition and what happened?

Um, so by the time I'm also a long time contributor to a media in Hong Kong called the Free Hong Kong Press. Um, and they were doing this, uh, Freedom Festival in Hong Kong in 2018. And one of the major events would be this art exhibition. And obviously, I'm very excited to to be a part of it. And it also, uh, was my first major international national exhibition. So for the exhibition, there's a lot of cartooning, but also installation and the performing works will be presented. It became a multi-organization associated event, including Amnesty International, Journalists Without Borders. And in the opening, we were planning to invite a very famous activist, Joshua Wong. Joshua Wong is a teenager activist, being merged from 2014 umbrella movement in Hong Kong, and the umbrella movement is a calling for universal election in Hong Kong to truly bring democracy to this city. And because the Chinese government is trying to controlling the political system in Hong Kong and denying their basic rights. So as young as a teenage Joshua Wong was the leading figure for the major protest of basically campaigning in the most busy area in Hong Kong for months, and after that he continued to, uh, doing his campaign and activism and even started a political party. And he got very famous because his young age. So he's coming to the event, makes it very high profile. And by the time Pussy Riot, the Russian dissident band was touring Hong Kong as well, so they agreed to come to the event as well. I guess that makes, um, the exhibition such a threat to the Chinese government and for its controlling in Hong Kong. So they decide to sabotage the show, um, with all that means.

Um, so by the time I'm also a long time contributor to a media in Hong Kong called the Free Hong Kong Press. Um, and they were doing this, uh, Freedom Festival in Hong Kong in 2018. And one of the major events would be this art exhibition. And obviously, I'm very excited to to be a part of it. And it also, uh, was my first major international national exhibition. So for the exhibition, there's a lot of cartooning, but also installation and the performing works will be presented. It became a multi-organization associated event, including Amnesty International, Journalists Without Borders. And in the opening, we were planning to invite a very famous activist, Joshua Wong. Joshua Wong is a teenager activist, being merged from 2014 umbrella movement in Hong Kong, and the umbrella movement is a calling for universal election in Hong Kong to truly bring democracy to this city. And because the Chinese government is trying to controlling the political system in Hong Kong and denying their basic rights. So as young as a teenage Joshua Wong was the leading figure for the major protest of basically campaigning in the most busy area in Hong Kong for months, and after that he continued to, uh, doing his campaign and activism and even started a political party. And he got very famous because his young age. So he's coming to the event, makes it very high profile. And by the time Pussy Riot, the Russian dissident band was touring Hong Kong as well, so they agreed to come to the event as well. I guess that makes, um, the exhibition such a threat to the Chinese government and for its controlling in Hong Kong. So they decide to sabotage the show, um, with all that means.

So you were contacted by your your family at home in China. And what did they say to you?

So you were contacted by your your family at home in China. And what did they say to you?

So what happened is they, the Chinese government eventually find a way to trace down my identity just before the exhibition. Vision, and they starting to take in my relatives back in China to the police station for interrogation, basically harassing them and and scaring them in order to sending a message back to me saying that now we know who you are. We know all of your family members. We'll take them one by one to the police station until you giving up this exhibition. And not just this exhibition, but your entire art career. Um, and they're also adding this threat to the people who are helping me organize the show in Hong Kong, saying that the Chinese national security police in Shanghai will actually go to the opening. If I choose to proceed to the show. And I have to remind all our audience, that is 2018. Long before the national security law was enforced in Hong Kong 2019. So it's kind of unthinkable for the police in China, National security police in China would actually go to Hong Kong in that time when the city still enjoyed its autonomy. And obviously, it's not just a threat to me, but also to my family and also to all organizations and helpers for me in Hong Kong. So unfortunately, a group decision was made eventually and we just have to cancel the show for protecting the people who connect to me, including myself, my family and and the people who work for me in Hong Kong.

So what happened is they, the Chinese government eventually find a way to trace down my identity just before the exhibition. Vision, and they starting to take in my relatives back in China to the police station for interrogation, basically harassing them and and scaring them in order to sending a message back to me saying that now we know who you are. We know all of your family members. We'll take them one by one to the police station until you giving up this exhibition. And not just this exhibition, but your entire art career. Um, and they're also adding this threat to the people who are helping me organize the show in Hong Kong, saying that the Chinese national security police in Shanghai will actually go to the opening. If I choose to proceed to the show. And I have to remind all our audience, that is 2018. Long before the national security law was enforced in Hong Kong 2019. So it's kind of unthinkable for the police in China, National security police in China would actually go to Hong Kong in that time when the city still enjoyed its autonomy. And obviously, it's not just a threat to me, but also to my family and also to all organizations and helpers for me in Hong Kong. So unfortunately, a group decision was made eventually and we just have to cancel the show for protecting the people who connect to me, including myself, my family and and the people who work for me in Hong Kong.

That was obviously hugely disappointing and a big a big moment for you. But something very interesting happened after this in Hong Kong. So the cancellation made global news again. Then the protesters in Hong Kong started to become very interested in your work. Can you tell me about that?

That was obviously hugely disappointing and a big a big moment for you. But something very interesting happened after this in Hong Kong. So the cancellation made global news again. Then the protesters in Hong Kong started to become very interested in your work. Can you tell me about that?

Right. I think the cancelling of my exhibition is almost a sign for what is happening to Hong Kong next. Because after six months, this new extradition law was about to be passed in Hong Kong, and that will give the Chinese authority a legal arm to actually threatening and harassing everyone in Hong Kong. So people say enough is enough and starting to take to the streets and protest. Then that is the massive protesting in 2019, starting from Hong Kong. And by the time I feel, you know, it's it's unacceptable for me to just giving up all my art career and just because they know who I am. And and I think being an artist and working as an artist has become a part of my identity, has become my identity itself. And I have to start up again. And basically coming out from the closet of silence and join the protest with my art to show my gratitude to Hong Kong for the city that supporting me for such a long time. So as the protest is beginning, I'm starting to contribute cartooning every day, just following along the developments of this campaign. It's really amazing because the message that I do is I will respond to certain events and creating artworks and put it online free for downloading. So anyone from Hong Kong who attended the protest will be able to have the artwork in their hands than print it out. So that was a truly marvelous experience for me because before that, it's as if my show is killed. But now the entire bloody city becomes my gallery. I think this is the highest honor any artist could ask.

Right. I think the cancelling of my exhibition is almost a sign for what is happening to Hong Kong next. Because after six months, this new extradition law was about to be passed in Hong Kong, and that will give the Chinese authority a legal arm to actually threatening and harassing everyone in Hong Kong. So people say enough is enough and starting to take to the streets and protest. Then that is the massive protesting in 2019, starting from Hong Kong. And by the time I feel, you know, it's it's unacceptable for me to just giving up all my art career and just because they know who I am. And and I think being an artist and working as an artist has become a part of my identity, has become my identity itself. And I have to start up again. And basically coming out from the closet of silence and join the protest with my art to show my gratitude to Hong Kong for the city that supporting me for such a long time. So as the protest is beginning, I'm starting to contribute cartooning every day, just following along the developments of this campaign. It's really amazing because the message that I do is I will respond to certain events and creating artworks and put it online free for downloading. So anyone from Hong Kong who attended the protest will be able to have the artwork in their hands than print it out. So that was a truly marvelous experience for me because before that, it's as if my show is killed. But now the entire bloody city becomes my gallery. I think this is the highest honor any artist could ask.

What an amazing experience sitting there in Melbourne watching your your art come to life on on the other side of the world. So at this time, the Chinese government now knew your name. They were. They were threatening your family. But. But you still hadn't exposed your face at this time. And there was a documentary being produced about about you. Can you tell me about that documentary?

What an amazing experience sitting there in Melbourne watching your your art come to life on on the other side of the world. So at this time, the Chinese government now knew your name. They were. They were threatening your family. But. But you still hadn't exposed your face at this time. And there was a documentary being produced about about you. Can you tell me about that documentary?

So the documentary is called China's Are for dissidents, and in this documentary, it is the first time I actually reveal my face to the public. So before that, I always wearing different masks if I have to be in a public event. Um, and, and actually, it's kind of amazing for the making of this documentary because when we started, it was three years ago before the final reveal and when we started. We have to be very careful to hide my identity. There's no shot while filming from my front face. They would also have to, uh, we are also even considering hiring a voice actor to basically covering my voice because also, you know, the audio, uh, well, trace can be Identity can be used to identify me, but I guess the plane never catches the change. And then this documentary just providing me a best chance to actually, you know, throwing this middle finger to the Chinese government, saying that I'm not afraid of you anymore and you cannot control me just by knowing my identity. You know, I'm going to show my face to the world. I'm going to own the narrative and the direction of my life. So I choose to basically show my face in the end of the documentary. And it's aired, uh, well, publicly in Australia and being, you know, also on TV and big screen in many countries around the world.

So the documentary is called China's Are for dissidents, and in this documentary, it is the first time I actually reveal my face to the public. So before that, I always wearing different masks if I have to be in a public event. Um, and, and actually, it's kind of amazing for the making of this documentary because when we started, it was three years ago before the final reveal and when we started. We have to be very careful to hide my identity. There's no shot while filming from my front face. They would also have to, uh, we are also even considering hiring a voice actor to basically covering my voice because also, you know, the audio, uh, well, trace can be Identity can be used to identify me, but I guess the plane never catches the change. And then this documentary just providing me a best chance to actually, you know, throwing this middle finger to the Chinese government, saying that I'm not afraid of you anymore and you cannot control me just by knowing my identity. You know, I'm going to show my face to the world. I'm going to own the narrative and the direction of my life. So I choose to basically show my face in the end of the documentary. And it's aired, uh, well, publicly in Australia and being, you know, also on TV and big screen in many countries around the world.

That aired on the ABC at a significant anniversary. Yeah. Can you tell me what the anniversary was?

That aired on the ABC at a significant anniversary. Yeah. Can you tell me what the anniversary was?

Yeah, it is actually aired on the 30th anniversary of Tiananmen massacre, which is a significant date for the development of China's democracy.

Yeah, it is actually aired on the 30th anniversary of Tiananmen massacre, which is a significant date for the development of China's democracy.

So around this time you were blowing up in Hong Kong. Your profile was increasing around the world. You were back in Melbourne, and you began to notice that you were being followed in your daily life. Can you tell me about that?

So around this time you were blowing up in Hong Kong. Your profile was increasing around the world. You were back in Melbourne, and you began to notice that you were being followed in your daily life. Can you tell me about that?

Yeah. So obviously the Chinese government has known my identity and the harassment and all those threats has been shifted. And, you know, more like targeting on me directly. So what happened is I've been experiencing a lot of following incidents in Australia, in Melbourne. Um, and I remember one time actually just before the documentary was, was out. But after the announcement of the screening that I got followed by four very suspicious persons on a public transportation. So I don't really drive because I'm worrying that, you know, my plate number would giving my identity and address and things like that. So I use public transportation a lot, and I lived in an area where you don't have a lot of, uh, Asian neighbors. I particularly choose that for security reasons. And and so that would be very peculiar, certainly, that I found myself surrounded by four middle aged Asian male, all wearing a Bluetooth, same Bluetooth device on their ear and sitting surrounded me. Um, I mean, as this is an artist, you can't get paranoid. And I always try to be careful, but I don't want to be, uh, you know, too much, uh, kind of overcautious on that. So in order to prove my worrying, I choose to get off the bus before the destination. Just a randomly decision by jumping off the bus. And guess what? Those people starting to following me right in the same stop. And I did this very weird turn after I walking off the bus. So I was walking in one direction and then do a very sharp U-turn and walk opposite to these people. So I see their face and I cross them. Then I went to a wally, and in that way I think there's no coincidence that I should still see them, but then they appear in the Wally as well. So I remember that day. I have to hide into the supermarket, where there are a lot of people around for about 40 to 40 minutes to an hour, just to making sure they're no longer telling me, um, and other experience has happening to my film director, Danny Ben-moshe, when he is, you know, filming B-roll in the city. And there's also very strange cars parking outside of his residence with a mao Zedong decoration in the car, basically almost like a message that we are here, we know what you are doing, and this kind of thing has been happening again and again in Australia. And the pattern will be, if I ever have a chance to do major events, then something like this would happen. And what they also will do is sending people to taking pictures for the event and the people taking pictures of the people who are working for me in those events in Australia as well.

Yeah. So obviously the Chinese government has known my identity and the harassment and all those threats has been shifted. And, you know, more like targeting on me directly. So what happened is I've been experiencing a lot of following incidents in Australia, in Melbourne. Um, and I remember one time actually just before the documentary was, was out. But after the announcement of the screening that I got followed by four very suspicious persons on a public transportation. So I don't really drive because I'm worrying that, you know, my plate number would giving my identity and address and things like that. So I use public transportation a lot, and I lived in an area where you don't have a lot of, uh, Asian neighbors. I particularly choose that for security reasons. And and so that would be very peculiar, certainly, that I found myself surrounded by four middle aged Asian male, all wearing a Bluetooth, same Bluetooth device on their ear and sitting surrounded me. Um, I mean, as this is an artist, you can't get paranoid. And I always try to be careful, but I don't want to be, uh, you know, too much, uh, kind of overcautious on that. So in order to prove my worrying, I choose to get off the bus before the destination. Just a randomly decision by jumping off the bus. And guess what? Those people starting to following me right in the same stop. And I did this very weird turn after I walking off the bus. So I was walking in one direction and then do a very sharp U-turn and walk opposite to these people. So I see their face and I cross them. Then I went to a wally, and in that way I think there's no coincidence that I should still see them, but then they appear in the Wally as well. So I remember that day. I have to hide into the supermarket, where there are a lot of people around for about 40 to 40 minutes to an hour, just to making sure they're no longer telling me, um, and other experience has happening to my film director, Danny Ben-moshe, when he is, you know, filming B-roll in the city. And there's also very strange cars parking outside of his residence with a mao Zedong decoration in the car, basically almost like a message that we are here, we know what you are doing, and this kind of thing has been happening again and again in Australia. And the pattern will be, if I ever have a chance to do major events, then something like this would happen. And what they also will do is sending people to taking pictures for the event and the people taking pictures of the people who are working for me in those events in Australia as well.

It's very disturbing for most people listening to this, the idea of someone following them would be, uh, upsetting and hard to imagine. But among the Chinese dissident community. Is this sort of thing expected here?

It's very disturbing for most people listening to this, the idea of someone following them would be, uh, upsetting and hard to imagine. But among the Chinese dissident community. Is this sort of thing expected here?

It is very much, um, I think because Australia's relationship with China is unfortunately very close, because our relying on China economically. So this case has been quite common among the dissident community in Australia. Anyone who dare to speak up would receive some form of harassment, sometimes online. Sometimes it goes physical as well.

It is very much, um, I think because Australia's relationship with China is unfortunately very close, because our relying on China economically. So this case has been quite common among the dissident community in Australia. Anyone who dare to speak up would receive some form of harassment, sometimes online. Sometimes it goes physical as well.

So I think most readers would be unaware of these ways that China can get at you in Australia, when something like this happens, uh, who do you contact if you believe that, uh, that foreign agents are following you or trying to intimidate you? Who do you contact in Australia?

So I think most readers would be unaware of these ways that China can get at you in Australia, when something like this happens, uh, who do you contact if you believe that, uh, that foreign agents are following you or trying to intimidate you? Who do you contact in Australia?

Well, that's the part I have to say. I feel a little bit disappointed. Obviously, I have a very close contact with the Federal Police, with ASIO, because a lot of them are are actually a national security threat to our country, but also posting a very serious personal threat to myself. But the thing is, um, I don't feel like I have received enough protection. I think I contribute more information to the authority than the protection they're sending back to me.

Well, that's the part I have to say. I feel a little bit disappointed. Obviously, I have a very close contact with the Federal Police, with ASIO, because a lot of them are are actually a national security threat to our country, but also posting a very serious personal threat to myself. But the thing is, um, I don't feel like I have received enough protection. I think I contribute more information to the authority than the protection they're sending back to me.

And this isn't just a threat in Australia, is it? Last year you had an exhibition in Europe and you received a warning before travelling home, didn't you? Can you tell me about that?

And this isn't just a threat in Australia, is it? Last year you had an exhibition in Europe and you received a warning before travelling home, didn't you? Can you tell me about that?

Um. So I had a major exhibition in Warsaw in Poland, and it was in the Yazdovsky Museum, which is a like NGV level of National museum in, in Poland. Obviously it became a very popular and high profile exhibition. And then what happened first is the Chinese embassy in Warsaw starting to sending emails and calling people in the museum. Then even the consular, whose name is Xiao Dong Yi, who came in person to the castle without appointment, demanding the meeting the director and asking the show to be canceled. Um, of course they will frame my show as anti-China, even racism against Chinese people and saying it is hurting the Chinese feeling. But what's more ambiguous compared with previous harassment is usually the so-called phrase of hurting the Chinese. Feeling is very abstract. It's a slogan. But this time, um, Mr. Xiao, the Chinese consulate said it actually meaning that it will hurting the Chinese students in Warsaw. And they cannot guarantee if those students will come to the exhibition and try to do something to you. So we're only here to do you a favor to ask you to cancel the show. Otherwise, it will be bad for our diplomatic relationship between China and Poland. It will not end well. Um, so after those very blunt threats, I'm very grateful that the OSCE, um, Castle Contemporary Art Museum didn't back down. Instead, they sending a public announcement saying we stand with the freedom of expression for this artist, as well as the freedom to know for the Polish citizen in this country. Um, obviously this is helping the profile and exposure for the show tremendously, but it also makes the Chinese government more furious. And that's when I'm starting to receive tips. IPS, uh, from our authority. Australian authority. That on my way back to Melbourne from Poland after the exhibition, I need to be very careful to choose the flight, to not going through many countries which might have extradition bill with China or have high risk of being kidnapped by the Chinese agency. So what I did is I actually cancelled my original flight and rebooking another one. Obviously, this is a very, um, troublesome, um, new normalcy for me now. And as you can imagine, there's only a handful of countries which are, um, you know, solid democratic system that I can fly through or fly to, and all the other countries could potentially be my final destination to the Chinese prison. Um, even though the Chinese government didn't manage to sabotage my exhibition in Warsaw and other other exhibitions in Italy and in Czech in the previous years. But what it created is a very high bar for any other museum or institution who is willing to have my show in the future. And then it's almost a guarantee that the Chinese authority will do something to cancel the show or it will be damaged. You know, quote unquote, for the diplomatic relationship between those countries and China.

Um. So I had a major exhibition in Warsaw in Poland, and it was in the Yazdovsky Museum, which is a like NGV level of National museum in, in Poland. Obviously it became a very popular and high profile exhibition. And then what happened first is the Chinese embassy in Warsaw starting to sending emails and calling people in the museum. Then even the consular, whose name is Xiao Dong Yi, who came in person to the castle without appointment, demanding the meeting the director and asking the show to be canceled. Um, of course they will frame my show as anti-China, even racism against Chinese people and saying it is hurting the Chinese feeling. But what's more ambiguous compared with previous harassment is usually the so-called phrase of hurting the Chinese. Feeling is very abstract. It's a slogan. But this time, um, Mr. Xiao, the Chinese consulate said it actually meaning that it will hurting the Chinese students in Warsaw. And they cannot guarantee if those students will come to the exhibition and try to do something to you. So we're only here to do you a favor to ask you to cancel the show. Otherwise, it will be bad for our diplomatic relationship between China and Poland. It will not end well. Um, so after those very blunt threats, I'm very grateful that the OSCE, um, Castle Contemporary Art Museum didn't back down. Instead, they sending a public announcement saying we stand with the freedom of expression for this artist, as well as the freedom to know for the Polish citizen in this country. Um, obviously this is helping the profile and exposure for the show tremendously, but it also makes the Chinese government more furious. And that's when I'm starting to receive tips. IPS, uh, from our authority. Australian authority. That on my way back to Melbourne from Poland after the exhibition, I need to be very careful to choose the flight, to not going through many countries which might have extradition bill with China or have high risk of being kidnapped by the Chinese agency. So what I did is I actually cancelled my original flight and rebooking another one. Obviously, this is a very, um, troublesome, um, new normalcy for me now. And as you can imagine, there's only a handful of countries which are, um, you know, solid democratic system that I can fly through or fly to, and all the other countries could potentially be my final destination to the Chinese prison. Um, even though the Chinese government didn't manage to sabotage my exhibition in Warsaw and other other exhibitions in Italy and in Czech in the previous years. But what it created is a very high bar for any other museum or institution who is willing to have my show in the future. And then it's almost a guarantee that the Chinese authority will do something to cancel the show or it will be damaged. You know, quote unquote, for the diplomatic relationship between those countries and China.

But what about Australia? Where can we see you in Australia? Which gallery are you signed up with?

But what about Australia? Where can we see you in Australia? Which gallery are you signed up with?

Well, that's the heartbroken part, that even though I've lived in Australia for such a long time and I'm a citizen in Australia, but unfortunately I think the censorship that in Australia, in the art world is, is just tremendous. That simply I do not have any representation in Australia with any commercial gallery. It's not that I didn't try, you know, as working in this industry for a long time. You make friends and usually the connection and opportunity happen with those relationships. I do have meeting with several, um, art directors, sometimes even from the function of Human Rights Watch. As you can imagine, those human rights organizations would have philanthropists who supporting their works. And then I get to meet when I was invited as a guest speaker. But even for connection like that, that I don't have a chance. Because even for those galleries who are putting money for human rights organization, they're still worrying about sabotage from the Chinese government. Um, I think the Chinese government knowing the power of culture and contemporary art, and they have very clear intention to controlling the industry, the narrative through market, which means if you have a commercial gallery and if you want to. Sell your artwork to the booming middle class or rich people in China, then you. Can't representing me. Otherwise you simply lose that chunk of the market. It goes the other direction as well if you want to, representing some Chinese artists in the Australian art market. But then the Chinese government find out I'm on your guest list, then you don't have that opportunity anymore. And as for the government funded institution like, you know, NGV and other galleries, um, I don't want to be sound bitter because I have to say that for those galleries it's very much, um, curatorial invitation based. I cannot prove solely proof that they didn't choose me because my art is not good enough. Um, but also, I feel this invisible hand is controlling the selection process. They don't want to agitate the Chinese government when embassy or consulate will come to NGV and protest directly. I think there must be some some reason behind this selection of my art for all those years, but apparently it is also very hard to prove. I have to say this is just my speculation.

Well, that's the heartbroken part, that even though I've lived in Australia for such a long time and I'm a citizen in Australia, but unfortunately I think the censorship that in Australia, in the art world is, is just tremendous. That simply I do not have any representation in Australia with any commercial gallery. It's not that I didn't try, you know, as working in this industry for a long time. You make friends and usually the connection and opportunity happen with those relationships. I do have meeting with several, um, art directors, sometimes even from the function of Human Rights Watch. As you can imagine, those human rights organizations would have philanthropists who supporting their works. And then I get to meet when I was invited as a guest speaker. But even for connection like that, that I don't have a chance. Because even for those galleries who are putting money for human rights organization, they're still worrying about sabotage from the Chinese government. Um, I think the Chinese government knowing the power of culture and contemporary art, and they have very clear intention to controlling the industry, the narrative through market, which means if you have a commercial gallery and if you want to. Sell your artwork to the booming middle class or rich people in China, then you. Can't representing me. Otherwise you simply lose that chunk of the market. It goes the other direction as well if you want to, representing some Chinese artists in the Australian art market. But then the Chinese government find out I'm on your guest list, then you don't have that opportunity anymore. And as for the government funded institution like, you know, NGV and other galleries, um, I don't want to be sound bitter because I have to say that for those galleries it's very much, um, curatorial invitation based. I cannot prove solely proof that they didn't choose me because my art is not good enough. Um, but also, I feel this invisible hand is controlling the selection process. They don't want to agitate the Chinese government when embassy or consulate will come to NGV and protest directly. I think there must be some some reason behind this selection of my art for all those years, but apparently it is also very hard to prove. I have to say this is just my speculation.

And it's not like you don't have a profile. As we mentioned earlier, you've been written up in major publications around the world. Uh, I haven't mentioned yet, but you worked with famed artist AI Weiwei, and as the Age's cartoonist, you won the Walkley Award last year, which was brilliant. Congratulations. Thank you. Fast forward to this year. You were in Melbourne, and this is perhaps for me, one of the strangest parts of your story. Yeah. And you meet in person with Cheng Lei, the Australian journalist who was detained in China for three years. The two of you had chatted online a number of times before this point, but it's the first time you're meeting in person, or so you thought. Tell me about that meeting and what Cheng Lei revealed to you.

And it's not like you don't have a profile. As we mentioned earlier, you've been written up in major publications around the world. Uh, I haven't mentioned yet, but you worked with famed artist AI Weiwei, and as the Age's cartoonist, you won the Walkley Award last year, which was brilliant. Congratulations. Thank you. Fast forward to this year. You were in Melbourne, and this is perhaps for me, one of the strangest parts of your story. Yeah. And you meet in person with Cheng Lei, the Australian journalist who was detained in China for three years. The two of you had chatted online a number of times before this point, but it's the first time you're meeting in person, or so you thought. Tell me about that meeting and what Cheng Lei revealed to you.

So I've been talking online with Charlie after she's freed from China back to Australia. I think I really admire that his courage, her courage to going through all those struggles and, you know, keep a very positive attitude. And, um, you know, I'm grateful to meeting her in this actually private function. And so when I saw her, I just go direct to her to say, hey, this is great to finally meet. But her reaction is rather unexpected. She's like, well, we've already met each other. Don't you forget that as a knight, I'm like, what other night? Then she explains that she was in this actually, uh, standing committee gig with Vicky Xu, another very talented and courageous Chinese citizen. Um, and she was there, you know, uh, to crack jokes for the event. And after the event, someone approached to her claiming to be Bardiya, and introduce himself to her as.

So I've been talking online with Charlie after she's freed from China back to Australia. I think I really admire that his courage, her courage to going through all those struggles and, you know, keep a very positive attitude. And, um, you know, I'm grateful to meeting her in this actually private function. And so when I saw her, I just go direct to her to say, hey, this is great to finally meet. But her reaction is rather unexpected. She's like, well, we've already met each other. Don't you forget that as a knight, I'm like, what other night? Then she explains that she was in this actually, uh, standing committee gig with Vicky Xu, another very talented and courageous Chinese citizen. Um, and she was there, you know, uh, to crack jokes for the event. And after the event, someone approached to her claiming to be Bardiya, and introduce himself to her as.

An imposter.

An imposter.

And an imposter. Yes. Identity thief? Um, obviously, because we talked, but we didn't see each other. And I believe that person might have similar views as me. So it's it's it's kind of natural for her to, to to be polite and think, this is me. And then they started to have conversation. And Chandler even introduced her friends like other activists. Um, and her friends to him and even translated for him for some occasion. Um, so after hearing that, I was totally in shock because I was never there for the night. And she's also totally in shock as well, because she was basically accepting him as a new friend and giving him some information. Um, you know, the more I think about it, the more scary it becomes, because in order to pulling out such, um, action for this imposer that he has to have a pre-knowledge that I'm not going to be there on the night. And you have to be very cautious on asking me because there are people knowing me in that event. But regardless, um, he did that. Um, and this time it's just for introduce himself for chunlei. But next time, um, he maybe such action can be carried out to do more damage to me, um, to make crime that I didn't do or something like that. So now it's not just this virtual reality for character assassination by making stories, but actually produce a real story by using a fake body hotel right here in Melbourne in Australia.

And an imposter. Yes. Identity thief? Um, obviously, because we talked, but we didn't see each other. And I believe that person might have similar views as me. So it's it's it's kind of natural for her to, to to be polite and think, this is me. And then they started to have conversation. And Chandler even introduced her friends like other activists. Um, and her friends to him and even translated for him for some occasion. Um, so after hearing that, I was totally in shock because I was never there for the night. And she's also totally in shock as well, because she was basically accepting him as a new friend and giving him some information. Um, you know, the more I think about it, the more scary it becomes, because in order to pulling out such, um, action for this imposer that he has to have a pre-knowledge that I'm not going to be there on the night. And you have to be very cautious on asking me because there are people knowing me in that event. But regardless, um, he did that. Um, and this time it's just for introduce himself for chunlei. But next time, um, he maybe such action can be carried out to do more damage to me, um, to make crime that I didn't do or something like that. So now it's not just this virtual reality for character assassination by making stories, but actually produce a real story by using a fake body hotel right here in Melbourne in Australia.

It's astonishing. And so do you think this this person was a Chinese agent? Do you think it could be something else? But what do you make of it?

It's astonishing. And so do you think this this person was a Chinese agent? Do you think it could be something else? But what do you make of it?

It's it's very hard to tell. Basically, this is beyond our payroll, but the police work. But I do think there can be more investigation into this event and find out the true motivation behind this person.

It's it's very hard to tell. Basically, this is beyond our payroll, but the police work. But I do think there can be more investigation into this event and find out the true motivation behind this person.

As I mentioned before, you've you've previously worked with AI Weiwei and possibly the best known Chinese dissident artist in the world right now. What did he teach you about the work that you do and the price of speaking out?

As I mentioned before, you've you've previously worked with AI Weiwei and possibly the best known Chinese dissident artist in the world right now. What did he teach you about the work that you do and the price of speaking out?

Um, I think it's great to have experience working with such, uh, significant artists in the world, um, one of the most important value or lesson that I can absorb from him is this critical stance against authority should be universal, which means it's not just about China. It's not just about a dissident against one authority, but it's about human rights defending universally, regardless if it is in Europe, in Australia, or for United States, as well as for China. And well, if people following his work now, you can see more of his work is more focused on the issues in the West instead of China. Uh, obviously some people call him a traitor now because he's no longer putting a lot of energy on China. But when we're talking about human rights, we also say it's a universal value. So that just makes his action legitimate and authentic as well. So for me, I think it's very important that I will carry the same value. So my criticism is not a personal vendetta against one government or China, but rather to be applied universally in Australia, in Europe, in America and the Middle East, everywhere. Every time.

Um, I think it's great to have experience working with such, uh, significant artists in the world, um, one of the most important value or lesson that I can absorb from him is this critical stance against authority should be universal, which means it's not just about China. It's not just about a dissident against one authority, but it's about human rights defending universally, regardless if it is in Europe, in Australia, or for United States, as well as for China. And well, if people following his work now, you can see more of his work is more focused on the issues in the West instead of China. Uh, obviously some people call him a traitor now because he's no longer putting a lot of energy on China. But when we're talking about human rights, we also say it's a universal value. So that just makes his action legitimate and authentic as well. So for me, I think it's very important that I will carry the same value. So my criticism is not a personal vendetta against one government or China, but rather to be applied universally in Australia, in Europe, in America and the Middle East, everywhere. Every time.

And so we've had some big news recently in the the US, Donald, Donald Trump is uh, has been re-elected as president. What do you think about, uh, his re-election and China's current political situation? And do you think, uh, this will change the geopolitical dynamics with Australia, China and the US?

And so we've had some big news recently in the the US, Donald, Donald Trump is uh, has been re-elected as president. What do you think about, uh, his re-election and China's current political situation? And do you think, uh, this will change the geopolitical dynamics with Australia, China and the US?

Well, as a political cartoonist, I shall be happy because you never lack of story to draw and for caricature A of Trump that you don't need to put a lot of lot of effort. His face itself is a caricature already. But the downside of it is the election of Trump while bringing tremendous uncertainty and chaos to the world, even though he has a surgically kind of strong stand against China. But I am not a Trump fan. I know, actually, in the Chinese dissident community, there are a lot of people pro-Trump because of his harsh stand against CCP. But for me, in the end of the day, we're not doing this fighting just for overthrow CCP. We're doing this fighting because we believe in democracy and human rights. And that's not something that Trump believes in at all. Uh, I think for him, it's always about the grasp of power. There's no difference for any other authoritarian leaders or dictators around the world. You name it, XI Jinping pudding. They're using the same playbook. So even though after Trump's election, he might raise the tough against China, saying that China have to pay this, pay that. But because he's neglecting on human rights and his threat to democracy to the West. Um, for me, I wouldn't I would never stand with such figure. Um, what makes me worry the most is after Trump's presidency, um, that because of the chaos he is about to bring to the world, that the possibility of world war is increasing beyond people's expectation in here in Australia? Um, and I think it will be very naive to pick a side between China and America because neither side is truly heading into a peaceful, um, direction now. And it is very important for Australia to recognize both threats and do not easily fall into one side.

Well, as a political cartoonist, I shall be happy because you never lack of story to draw and for caricature A of Trump that you don't need to put a lot of lot of effort. His face itself is a caricature already. But the downside of it is the election of Trump while bringing tremendous uncertainty and chaos to the world, even though he has a surgically kind of strong stand against China. But I am not a Trump fan. I know, actually, in the Chinese dissident community, there are a lot of people pro-Trump because of his harsh stand against CCP. But for me, in the end of the day, we're not doing this fighting just for overthrow CCP. We're doing this fighting because we believe in democracy and human rights. And that's not something that Trump believes in at all. Uh, I think for him, it's always about the grasp of power. There's no difference for any other authoritarian leaders or dictators around the world. You name it, XI Jinping pudding. They're using the same playbook. So even though after Trump's election, he might raise the tough against China, saying that China have to pay this, pay that. But because he's neglecting on human rights and his threat to democracy to the West. Um, for me, I wouldn't I would never stand with such figure. Um, what makes me worry the most is after Trump's presidency, um, that because of the chaos he is about to bring to the world, that the possibility of world war is increasing beyond people's expectation in here in Australia? Um, and I think it will be very naive to pick a side between China and America because neither side is truly heading into a peaceful, um, direction now. And it is very important for Australia to recognize both threats and do not easily fall into one side.

What advice would you offer to your fellow Australian citizens about China influence globally and here?

What advice would you offer to your fellow Australian citizens about China influence globally and here?

I think it's very realistic for Beijing's plan to invading Taiwan. I think it's very realistic to see China's ambition to controlling the large Pacific region, particularly in the South China Sea. I don't think it's warmongering calling to say XI Jinping have this desire to actually wage war and break the peace in this very particular part of the world. And I also don't think our citizens have Seen this coming clearly. Um, I think our current diplomatic direction with China was deviate from the right way. I think it's suicide to continue investing in connection with China economically, culturally and politically. When the panda is about to strike and diminish another democracy in Asia, we need those allies. We need united with Taiwan, with Japan, with South Korea. They're saying that we want democracy in this region instead of authoritarian rules. But currently, I don't think our people have seen this very clearly, and it's very critical for us to wake up now. And knowing the threat from China has infiltrating in our society corrupting the freedom of speech, corrupting democracy step by step here. But in the same time, I don't think this awareness had to be in the way of discrimination against Chinese Australians here. I think there is a better way to do this, to both valuing the voice of Chinese population in Australia, but also in the same time see very clear the threat from Beijing. Um, I think the actions have to be taken right now, otherwise it might be just too late.

I think it's very realistic for Beijing's plan to invading Taiwan. I think it's very realistic to see China's ambition to controlling the large Pacific region, particularly in the South China Sea. I don't think it's warmongering calling to say XI Jinping have this desire to actually wage war and break the peace in this very particular part of the world. And I also don't think our citizens have Seen this coming clearly. Um, I think our current diplomatic direction with China was deviate from the right way. I think it's suicide to continue investing in connection with China economically, culturally and politically. When the panda is about to strike and diminish another democracy in Asia, we need those allies. We need united with Taiwan, with Japan, with South Korea. They're saying that we want democracy in this region instead of authoritarian rules. But currently, I don't think our people have seen this very clearly, and it's very critical for us to wake up now. And knowing the threat from China has infiltrating in our society corrupting the freedom of speech, corrupting democracy step by step here. But in the same time, I don't think this awareness had to be in the way of discrimination against Chinese Australians here. I think there is a better way to do this, to both valuing the voice of Chinese population in Australia, but also in the same time see very clear the threat from Beijing. Um, I think the actions have to be taken right now, otherwise it might be just too late.

It's a very sobering message. So I think as you can see, Baidu Youzhou is an intriguing character. You can find his illustrations in the Age, and if you want to read more of his incredible story, it's in the Good weekend this weekend. But are you Zhao, Joe. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you.

It's a very sobering message. So I think as you can see, Baidu Youzhou is an intriguing character. You can find his illustrations in the Age, and if you want to read more of his incredible story, it's in the Good weekend this weekend. But are you Zhao, Joe. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you.

That was Patrick O'Neill interviewing Chinese Australian dissident artist Badiucao on the latest good weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations coming soon! We chat with Olympic gold medal winning pole vaulter Nina Kennedy. Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong. Technical assistance from Cormac Lally, editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.

That was Patrick O'Neill interviewing Chinese Australian dissident artist Badiucao on the latest good weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations coming soon! We chat with Olympic gold medal winning pole vaulter Nina Kennedy. Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong. Technical assistance from Cormac Lally, editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.