Welcome to Good Game, where we're rereading this Mirror and Fader deep dive on Paige Becker's for a second time.

Welcome to Good Game, where we're rereading this Mirror and Fader deep dive on Paige Becker's for a second time.

Miron's one of the best, and she's done it again. On today's show, we're going to talk.

Miron's one of the best, and she's done it again. On today's show, we're going to talk.

To award winning journalist Melissa Ludkey about her new book, Locker Room Talk, A Woman Struggled to get inside, and how she won her lawsuit against Major League Baseball to earn the right to locker room access. Plus WNBA Playoffs, close Talkers, and more. It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices. Meche has your need to note today, Take it away, Mesh.

To award winning journalist Melissa Ludkey about her new book, Locker Room Talk, A Woman Struggled to get inside, and how she won her lawsuit against Major League Baseball to earn the right to locker room access. Plus WNBA Playoffs, close Talkers, and more. It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices. Meche has your need to note today, Take it away, Mesh.

The Connecticut Sun in Minnesota Lynks meet tonight in a winner, go home Game five to determine who will face off against the New York Liberty in the WNBA Finals. The Connecticut son are looking to make it back to the finals for the second time in three years, while the Links are looking for their first finals appearance since winning it All in twenty seventeen. In other basketball news, sisters Isabelle and Dory Harrison are both gonna hoop in the upcoming season of Athletes Unlimited Basketball in Nashville Tennessee. And it's even cooler because that's where they grew up. Talk about a full circle moment with your pal. I don't actually know if they like each other as siblings. I don't know nothing about that. I'm an only child. That ain't my business. But Izzy plays in the WNBA for the Chicago Sky and has been a part of AU since the league's inaugural twenty twenty two season, while Dorry made.

The Connecticut Sun in Minnesota Lynks meet tonight in a winner, go home Game five to determine who will face off against the New York Liberty in the WNBA Finals. The Connecticut son are looking to make it back to the finals for the second time in three years, while the Links are looking for their first finals appearance since winning it All in twenty seventeen. In other basketball news, sisters Isabelle and Dory Harrison are both gonna hoop in the upcoming season of Athletes Unlimited Basketball in Nashville Tennessee. And it's even cooler because that's where they grew up. Talk about a full circle moment with your pal. I don't actually know if they like each other as siblings. I don't know nothing about that. I'm an only child. That ain't my business. But Izzy plays in the WNBA for the Chicago Sky and has been a part of AU since the league's inaugural twenty twenty two season, while Dorry made.

Her AU debut last year.

Her AU debut last year.

The twenty four game AU season will run from February fifth through March second at the Nashville Municipal Auditorium. In hockey news, GG Marvin is retiring after a long career that included three Olympics, seven World Championship appearances in one Walter Cup Finals run. The thirty seven year old was a member of the US Olympic team that won gold in twenty eighteen, ending a nearly two decade gold medal drought during which Canada topped the podium four straight times. Marvin initially retired from the national team in twenty twenty one, but she returned to competitive hockey last year in order to play for Boston in the inaugural PWHL season.

The twenty four game AU season will run from February fifth through March second at the Nashville Municipal Auditorium. In hockey news, GG Marvin is retiring after a long career that included three Olympics, seven World Championship appearances in one Walter Cup Finals run. The thirty seven year old was a member of the US Olympic team that won gold in twenty eighteen, ending a nearly two decade gold medal drought during which Canada topped the podium four straight times. Marvin initially retired from the national team in twenty twenty one, but she returned to competitive hockey last year in order to play for Boston in the inaugural PWHL season.

P WHL.

P WHL.

Boston went on to make the Walter Cup Finals, losing to Minnesota in a decisive game five. Thanks so much for everything, Gigi. We're gonna Misha. And in tennis, the tournaments keep on coming. The Wuhan Open got started yesterday at the Optics Valley International Tennis Center. The tournament features a stacked field including Coco Golf, who just won the China Open, and Arena Sabalanka, the number one seed in the tournament and the number two rink player in the world. World number one IGOs Viantik withdrew from the tournament after splitting with her coach of three seasons at the end of last week. Arena Sabalanka took home the trophy at the last iteration of the contest way back in twenty nineteen, beating American Alison Risk in three sets. Sabalanka was also the champion twenty eighteen. And we'll look to three pte.

Boston went on to make the Walter Cup Finals, losing to Minnesota in a decisive game five. Thanks so much for everything, Gigi. We're gonna Misha. And in tennis, the tournaments keep on coming. The Wuhan Open got started yesterday at the Optics Valley International Tennis Center. The tournament features a stacked field including Coco Golf, who just won the China Open, and Arena Sabalanka, the number one seed in the tournament and the number two rink player in the world. World number one IGOs Viantik withdrew from the tournament after splitting with her coach of three seasons at the end of last week. Arena Sabalanka took home the trophy at the last iteration of the contest way back in twenty nineteen, beating American Alison Risk in three sets. Sabalanka was also the champion twenty eighteen. And we'll look to three pte.

Thanks Mesh, we got to take another break. Well we come back. Melissa Ludkey.

Thanks Mesh, we got to take another break. Well we come back. Melissa Ludkey.

She's an award winning journalist who in nineteen seventy eight won a law suit for the right to be allowed in Major League Baseball locker rooms. She's worked for ABC Sports, Sports, Illustrated, Time Magazine, CBS News, and spent thirteen years as a writer and editor for The Niemen Reports, magazine of Harvard University's Nieman Foundation for Journalism. This year, she released a new book, Locker Room Talk, A woman Struggle to get inside. She's a Wellesley alum, like producer Alex. Will have to let them chat about that later. It's Melissa Lutkey. What's up, Melissa. Thanks for joining us.

She's an award winning journalist who in nineteen seventy eight won a law suit for the right to be allowed in Major League Baseball locker rooms. She's worked for ABC Sports, Sports, Illustrated, Time Magazine, CBS News, and spent thirteen years as a writer and editor for The Niemen Reports, magazine of Harvard University's Nieman Foundation for Journalism. This year, she released a new book, Locker Room Talk, A woman Struggle to get inside. She's a Wellesley alum, like producer Alex. Will have to let them chat about that later. It's Melissa Lutkey. What's up, Melissa. Thanks for joining us.

Hey, that's the best news I've heard recently. Alex. I'll just ask you at some point if we do our reunion together.

Hey, that's the best news I've heard recently. Alex. I'll just ask you at some point if we do our reunion together.

There we go, Melissa, This conversation in your book is actually especially relevant now. The WNBA doesn't currently allow media access in the locker room. That was the change made a few years ago, and just last week the NFLP announced publicly that they've been working to follow suit, spending the last three years and discussions to try to move media interviews out of locker rooms. Now, before we get into the modern conversations about that space and access, I want to go back to your particular fight and how it all fits in. So let's start with how you got into sports reboarding and why you felt confident and comfortable pursuing the job despite so few women and what was often a really toxic environment at that time.

There we go, Melissa, This conversation in your book is actually especially relevant now. The WNBA doesn't currently allow media access in the locker room. That was the change made a few years ago, and just last week the NFLP announced publicly that they've been working to follow suit, spending the last three years and discussions to try to move media interviews out of locker rooms. Now, before we get into the modern conversations about that space and access, I want to go back to your particular fight and how it all fits in. So let's start with how you got into sports reboarding and why you felt confident and comfortable pursuing the job despite so few women and what was often a really toxic environment at that time.

Sarah, I don't think I understood the toxicity the environment. What drove me to get into it was absolute love of sports and a knowledge and a love of baseball that had been passed down to me from my mom. When I did graduate from Wellesley College in nineteen seventy three, I really had no plan. I'd majored in art history, which I loved studying, but I'd worked in an art gallery and that had maybe decided that that was not the venue for me to be happy in a job, and so I began to think about the other passions that drove me. One of them was teaching, but the other really was sports. I didn't know it at the time, but I had an exceptional girlhood in the sense that I had the opportunity to play team sports. In the nineteen fifty and sixties, when you're growing up, you think everyone is doing what you're doing. You just don't have a wider perspective. But I've come to learn over the years and appreciate even more the opportunities I had. So not only could I talk sports, my mother teaching me baseball, my dad taking me along at football games. Basketball was something we watched in our house. I played basketball. I really had a grounding in it that I was once told And this is really the spur to me moving into sports media. After having the opportunity to sit at a dinner table with Frank Gifford, who was then at ABC Sports, he'd just become one of the opening trio on Monday Night Football with Dandy, Don Meredith and Howard Cosell. So he was a very well known sports broadcaster. And after we had talked across a dining room table for I don't know, maybe an hour and a half with just sports, sports, sports, he told me, you know that for a girl, I knew a lot about sports, and I thought, wow, I mean, you know, that was a huge compliment, I thought, coming from him, And he followed it up with an invitation that if I was in New York, he would be happy to show me around ABC Sports and introduce me to the people who worked there. So when I went to dinner that night, I had no intention of going to New York City, But as I walked home from that dinner, I was already planning a trip, it would take a couple of weeks to pull it together, and in those intervening weeks, Sarah, you can't make this up. Billy Jean King played Bobby Riggs at the Houston Astrodome in that Battle of the Sexes, which, in many ways, coming on the heels of the passage of Title nine, really began to change everything. And it was at that time that I did take my father's car drive down to New York, have a chance for Frank to show me around. And the last thing I'll say is that Frank left me that afternoon in the office of the only woman sports producer at ABC Sports. She then invited me to stay an extra couple days. They were going to be doing a special on women in sports and evening special. And when I said yes and hung out for three more days with them, Billy Jean King walked up the stairs into that studio and Sarah, I had no idea how, but I knew at that moment that I was going to figure out a way to get into sports media.

Sarah, I don't think I understood the toxicity the environment. What drove me to get into it was absolute love of sports and a knowledge and a love of baseball that had been passed down to me from my mom. When I did graduate from Wellesley College in nineteen seventy three, I really had no plan. I'd majored in art history, which I loved studying, but I'd worked in an art gallery and that had maybe decided that that was not the venue for me to be happy in a job, and so I began to think about the other passions that drove me. One of them was teaching, but the other really was sports. I didn't know it at the time, but I had an exceptional girlhood in the sense that I had the opportunity to play team sports. In the nineteen fifty and sixties, when you're growing up, you think everyone is doing what you're doing. You just don't have a wider perspective. But I've come to learn over the years and appreciate even more the opportunities I had. So not only could I talk sports, my mother teaching me baseball, my dad taking me along at football games. Basketball was something we watched in our house. I played basketball. I really had a grounding in it that I was once told And this is really the spur to me moving into sports media. After having the opportunity to sit at a dinner table with Frank Gifford, who was then at ABC Sports, he'd just become one of the opening trio on Monday Night Football with Dandy, Don Meredith and Howard Cosell. So he was a very well known sports broadcaster. And after we had talked across a dining room table for I don't know, maybe an hour and a half with just sports, sports, sports, he told me, you know that for a girl, I knew a lot about sports, and I thought, wow, I mean, you know, that was a huge compliment, I thought, coming from him, And he followed it up with an invitation that if I was in New York, he would be happy to show me around ABC Sports and introduce me to the people who worked there. So when I went to dinner that night, I had no intention of going to New York City, But as I walked home from that dinner, I was already planning a trip, it would take a couple of weeks to pull it together, and in those intervening weeks, Sarah, you can't make this up. Billy Jean King played Bobby Riggs at the Houston Astrodome in that Battle of the Sexes, which, in many ways, coming on the heels of the passage of Title nine, really began to change everything. And it was at that time that I did take my father's car drive down to New York, have a chance for Frank to show me around. And the last thing I'll say is that Frank left me that afternoon in the office of the only woman sports producer at ABC Sports. She then invited me to stay an extra couple days. They were going to be doing a special on women in sports and evening special. And when I said yes and hung out for three more days with them, Billy Jean King walked up the stairs into that studio and Sarah, I had no idea how, but I knew at that moment that I was going to figure out a way to get into sports media.

Gosh, it sounds like truly the stars aligned to bring you into the space. It also helps me confirm my pre existing theory that Billy Jing King is the forrest Gump of women in sports that at any time, in any place, someone will tell a story, and Billy jan King was always there.

Gosh, it sounds like truly the stars aligned to bring you into the space. It also helps me confirm my pre existing theory that Billy Jing King is the forrest Gump of women in sports that at any time, in any place, someone will tell a story, and Billy jan King was always there.

I love that she played role in your story too.

I love that she played role in your story too.

So it's the mid seventies, you're reporting for Sports Illustrated. You're the only woman assigned full time to Major League Baseball. The Yankees give you a credential for the final games of the regular season in nineteen seventy seven. What were those first few games, like, how were you received by players and managers and other media.

So it's the mid seventies, you're reporting for Sports Illustrated. You're the only woman assigned full time to Major League Baseball. The Yankees give you a credential for the final games of the regular season in nineteen seventy seven. What were those first few games, like, how were you received by players and managers and other media.

Well, the reason that they gave me those two credentials, and you're right, the very last two games of the nineteen seventy seven season, Mickey Morribido, the very young PR, first year PR person for the Yankees, gave me the clubhouse passes. Now, let's be sure that we understand that that was after two years of me gradually gradually earning the trust both of Mickey but also the players being up at that ballg park game after game after game, having no access whatsoever, and Mickey coming to understand by watching the frustrations that I would have with my reporting, first opening up the manager's office for me after the games, and then those last two games, deciding, for whatever reason, leaving those two passes for me. And when I went out on the field, I said, Mickey, you left these passes. Did you really mean to He said yes, He says, you certainly earned the right to do this, use them how you want. And I think you said that knowing me very well. By that point, I was really understanding that to make this work I had to be a gradualist. This wasn't banging down a door, It wasn't demanding. It was being the only woman up there, and that meant trying to get along with the men, trying not to upset them in the process of making forward progress for me. So the fact that Micky recognized that and gave me the two passes, Sarah, I only used them before the game, which, for some mysterious reason, i'd alway been kept out of the clubhouse. Then too, the commissioner contended that the reason for me being out of the clubhouse was to protect the sexual privacy of players. Well before the game started, between batting practice and the game, not one player changed out of his uniform. So I went into the clubhouse during that period. For those two games, I didn't need to be there like a daily reporter might for the game coverage afterwards. And so again, as a gradualist, you know, I have to frankly say it worked fine. The players knew me, they were prepared by Mickey that I had the pass, and things worked out well well enough. I might add that not one baseball reporter wrote about me being in the locker room during those two games, or during the American League Championship series, in which I was also in the locker room, which gave me a sense that maybe my gradualist kind of mother may I approach had actually worked. So when we come to that nineteen seventy seven World Series, I have a sense, why wouldn't I have a sense at that point that maybe we're going to make this work.

Well, the reason that they gave me those two credentials, and you're right, the very last two games of the nineteen seventy seven season, Mickey Morribido, the very young PR, first year PR person for the Yankees, gave me the clubhouse passes. Now, let's be sure that we understand that that was after two years of me gradually gradually earning the trust both of Mickey but also the players being up at that ballg park game after game after game, having no access whatsoever, and Mickey coming to understand by watching the frustrations that I would have with my reporting, first opening up the manager's office for me after the games, and then those last two games, deciding, for whatever reason, leaving those two passes for me. And when I went out on the field, I said, Mickey, you left these passes. Did you really mean to He said yes, He says, you certainly earned the right to do this, use them how you want. And I think you said that knowing me very well. By that point, I was really understanding that to make this work I had to be a gradualist. This wasn't banging down a door, It wasn't demanding. It was being the only woman up there, and that meant trying to get along with the men, trying not to upset them in the process of making forward progress for me. So the fact that Micky recognized that and gave me the two passes, Sarah, I only used them before the game, which, for some mysterious reason, i'd alway been kept out of the clubhouse. Then too, the commissioner contended that the reason for me being out of the clubhouse was to protect the sexual privacy of players. Well before the game started, between batting practice and the game, not one player changed out of his uniform. So I went into the clubhouse during that period. For those two games, I didn't need to be there like a daily reporter might for the game coverage afterwards. And so again, as a gradualist, you know, I have to frankly say it worked fine. The players knew me, they were prepared by Mickey that I had the pass, and things worked out well well enough. I might add that not one baseball reporter wrote about me being in the locker room during those two games, or during the American League Championship series, in which I was also in the locker room, which gave me a sense that maybe my gradualist kind of mother may I approach had actually worked. So when we come to that nineteen seventy seven World Series, I have a sense, why wouldn't I have a sense at that point that maybe we're going to make this work.

Throughout those games, you only went in before the game, Yes you didn't.

Throughout those games, you only went in before the game, Yes you didn't.

No, that is not the case. I'm sorry I did that. Just those two games. And then during the American League Championship I was in the locker room both before games as well as.

No, that is not the case. I'm sorry I did that. Just those two games. And then during the American League Championship I was in the locker room both before games as well as.

After, and no incidents, no one complaining.

After, and no incidents, no one complaining.

No incidents. I wasn't thrown out. I wouldn't say that there were no incidents. I mean there were players who very much voiced their disapproval of my presence among them. But I came. I understood from the very beginning that this was their clubhouse, this was their locker room, and if something egregious happened, I had a sense that I would understand a redline and if a player lost, then I would either say or do something or leave. And you know, share with Mickey my experience. But none of that happened. Yes, were their jokes made. Yes, were there are things that were probably said of me at the time that were uncomfortable to year, Yes, but you know that was part of what I knew would happen. I mean, I just knew it. So your roll with it.

No incidents. I wasn't thrown out. I wouldn't say that there were no incidents. I mean there were players who very much voiced their disapproval of my presence among them. But I came. I understood from the very beginning that this was their clubhouse, this was their locker room, and if something egregious happened, I had a sense that I would understand a redline and if a player lost, then I would either say or do something or leave. And you know, share with Mickey my experience. But none of that happened. Yes, were their jokes made. Yes, were there are things that were probably said of me at the time that were uncomfortable to year, Yes, but you know that was part of what I knew would happen. I mean, I just knew it. So your roll with it.

So it ends up happening that the first game of the nineteen seventy seven World Series arrives, the Los Angeles Dodgers actually had a vote during which the players approved your presence in the locker room and agreed with the Yankees that it was fine that you were in there, but the Commissioner of Baseball, Booie Kune, banned you from the locker room because of your gender. Take us to that day, Like you said, at this point, you've arrived at the World Series, believing that the barrier has been broken, and now you're a part of the crew that goes in the locker room. How do you find out that this is a problem and that Booie has stepped in?

So it ends up happening that the first game of the nineteen seventy seven World Series arrives, the Los Angeles Dodgers actually had a vote during which the players approved your presence in the locker room and agreed with the Yankees that it was fine that you were in there, but the Commissioner of Baseball, Booie Kune, banned you from the locker room because of your gender. Take us to that day, Like you said, at this point, you've arrived at the World Series, believing that the barrier has been broken, and now you're a part of the crew that goes in the locker room. How do you find out that this is a problem and that Booie has stepped in?

Yeah, I mean the Dodgers were in town. I recognized right away that they had never had a woman and covering them. So it was actually by me going to them what I thought of as playing a sort of courtesy call, explaining to them that I had a pass that said I had entrance to the clubhouse, telling them about my experiences with the Yankees. I hoped that that would ease the way for them to understand that I might be coming into their clubhouse as well. It was because of the conversation that I'm kind of relaying to you at this point, with those elements in it that I had with their player Rep. Tommy John, that that vote was taken. And right before the first game, Tommy John came out to meet me, as he said he would, told me that it was a majority of players that they understood and that it was fine with them for me to be in there, And so that was how I walked away from him. He then called me back however, and asked me another favor, and that was to let their PR people know that this might happen. And it was that going my willingness to convey that message to the PR people on behalf of Tommy and the team that sort of sealed my fate, which I was informed of five innings later.

Yeah, I mean the Dodgers were in town. I recognized right away that they had never had a woman and covering them. So it was actually by me going to them what I thought of as playing a sort of courtesy call, explaining to them that I had a pass that said I had entrance to the clubhouse, telling them about my experiences with the Yankees. I hoped that that would ease the way for them to understand that I might be coming into their clubhouse as well. It was because of the conversation that I'm kind of relaying to you at this point, with those elements in it that I had with their player Rep. Tommy John, that that vote was taken. And right before the first game, Tommy John came out to meet me, as he said he would, told me that it was a majority of players that they understood and that it was fine with them for me to be in there, And so that was how I walked away from him. He then called me back however, and asked me another favor, and that was to let their PR people know that this might happen. And it was that going my willingness to convey that message to the PR people on behalf of Tommy and the team that sort of sealed my fate, which I was informed of five innings later.

So their PR person went to the commissioner, presumably and maybe decided that that would be the person that they would have to do their dirty work. Perhaps the PR person for the Dodgers was the one who wanted it. Who knows, At the very least they managed to take it to a commissioner who for sure wanted to prevent you. So your five innings into the game, and who approaches you and how soon after that game did you decide that you were going to take up a fight.

So their PR person went to the commissioner, presumably and maybe decided that that would be the person that they would have to do their dirty work. Perhaps the PR person for the Dodgers was the one who wanted it. Who knows, At the very least they managed to take it to a commissioner who for sure wanted to prevent you. So your five innings into the game, and who approaches you and how soon after that game did you decide that you were going to take up a fight.

During the fifth inning, I was sitting in the overflow press box that was in the grand stands. Sports Illustrated had four people assigned to the game. Only one of them was in the main press box. So I called over a very small loud speaker in our press box to report to the main press box, and through a series of conversations I had none of them directly with the commissioner, even though I asked to speak with him directly, since it was his edict, but I refused permission to do that. The bottom line was that I was told that it didn't matter if the Yankees gave permission. It didn't matter that the Dodgers gave permission. It did not matter that the Baseball Writers had given me permission by issuing me that press credential. The only person in Baseball who could give me permission was the commissioner, and he would not He would take that permission away for the entire series. And then added to that, I was told permission would be not granted forever.

During the fifth inning, I was sitting in the overflow press box that was in the grand stands. Sports Illustrated had four people assigned to the game. Only one of them was in the main press box. So I called over a very small loud speaker in our press box to report to the main press box, and through a series of conversations I had none of them directly with the commissioner, even though I asked to speak with him directly, since it was his edict, but I refused permission to do that. The bottom line was that I was told that it didn't matter if the Yankees gave permission. It didn't matter that the Dodgers gave permission. It did not matter that the Baseball Writers had given me permission by issuing me that press credential. The only person in Baseball who could give me permission was the commissioner, and he would not He would take that permission away for the entire series. And then added to that, I was told permission would be not granted forever.

He was very young, My goodness, a lifetime ban of sorts.

He was very young, My goodness, a lifetime ban of sorts.

Well, he was young, and it rose. Yeah, I guess so. But I guess the difference is that if you live long enough as I have my passes, that clubhouse pass and my pass for the series is in the Hall of Fame.

Well, he was young, and it rose. Yeah, I guess so. But I guess the difference is that if you live long enough as I have my passes, that clubhouse pass and my pass for the series is in the Hall of Fame.

That's right, that's right. You've got one up on it so far.

That's right, that's right. You've got one up on it so far.

Okay, So in this moment, this feels very extreme. Not only are we rejecting you right now, but don't bother coming back later to ask again. You decide to file a lawsuit, and I wonder what the response to the lawsuit was. Let's start with from colleagues, your editor, or your bosses. What kind of support or criticism did you get?

Okay, So in this moment, this feels very extreme. Not only are we rejecting you right now, but don't bother coming back later to ask again. You decide to file a lawsuit, and I wonder what the response to the lawsuit was. Let's start with from colleagues, your editor, or your bosses. What kind of support or criticism did you get?

Well, it was actually my bosses. It was actually Time Incorporated who came to me and asked if I would be in a plaintiff in a lawsuit they would file at the Southern District Court of Manhattan. This only came about after several weeks. It might have even been two months of negotiations that had gone on between the baseball editor and the lawyer at Sports Illustrated and the commissioner and his lawyer, And it was only toward the beginning of December, I believe, when they realized that there was no progress being made. Baseball believe that quote unquote, separate accommodations would for me would be equal to what the men had by interviewing the players in the clubhouse. We disagreed fundamentally, separate would not be equal, and we demanded equal access. There was no meeting of the minds to be had. And it was at that point that Time Ink made the decision Time Incorporated to file this lawsuit, and they came to me and asked if I would be the named plaintiff in the lawsuit.

Well, it was actually my bosses. It was actually Time Incorporated who came to me and asked if I would be in a plaintiff in a lawsuit they would file at the Southern District Court of Manhattan. This only came about after several weeks. It might have even been two months of negotiations that had gone on between the baseball editor and the lawyer at Sports Illustrated and the commissioner and his lawyer, And it was only toward the beginning of December, I believe, when they realized that there was no progress being made. Baseball believe that quote unquote, separate accommodations would for me would be equal to what the men had by interviewing the players in the clubhouse. We disagreed fundamentally, separate would not be equal, and we demanded equal access. There was no meeting of the minds to be had. And it was at that point that Time Ink made the decision Time Incorporated to file this lawsuit, and they came to me and asked if I would be the named plaintiff in the lawsuit.

As owners of Sports Illustrated, Time Inc. Which is where we were.

As owners of Sports Illustrated, Time Inc. Which is where we were.

Owners of Sports Illustrated. They had been sued a Time Incorporated by their own women for gender discrimination and this is across the company in the early nineteen seventies, and had signed a conciliation agreement to end that legal action by agreeing that from then that point out there would be gender equality in assignments, etc. Now that wasn't instantly something that happened, but I always believed that it was because that conciliation agreement existed, that there was the pressure through the legal department and the rest to make this happen. They came to me, asked me, And you know, Sarah, I was twenty six at the time. I started covering baseball when I was twenty four, I was very naive when I said yes, because I saw it through one lens and one lens only. I wanted to do a job I absolutely loved. I felt I was just really getting to the point of learning how to do it. Two years of really putting in my time at the ballparks, I'd already written a few baseball stories by then I just wanted to keep doing this. I loved it, and I felt there was no reason for me not to be able to do it. So I looked at it totally as almost an employment lawsuit, But little did I understand its cultural touchstones.

Owners of Sports Illustrated. They had been sued a Time Incorporated by their own women for gender discrimination and this is across the company in the early nineteen seventies, and had signed a conciliation agreement to end that legal action by agreeing that from then that point out there would be gender equality in assignments, etc. Now that wasn't instantly something that happened, but I always believed that it was because that conciliation agreement existed, that there was the pressure through the legal department and the rest to make this happen. They came to me, asked me, And you know, Sarah, I was twenty six at the time. I started covering baseball when I was twenty four, I was very naive when I said yes, because I saw it through one lens and one lens only. I wanted to do a job I absolutely loved. I felt I was just really getting to the point of learning how to do it. Two years of really putting in my time at the ballparks, I'd already written a few baseball stories by then I just wanted to keep doing this. I loved it, and I felt there was no reason for me not to be able to do it. So I looked at it totally as almost an employment lawsuit, But little did I understand its cultural touchstones.

Yeah, it's nice, whether they're hand forced or not, that you then felt the support legally and es of your bosses and your company. Can you sum up the personal price that you paid by being the face of the of the change of that lawsuit.

Yeah, it's nice, whether they're hand forced or not, that you then felt the support legally and es of your bosses and your company. Can you sum up the personal price that you paid by being the face of the of the change of that lawsuit.

I can try to sum it up. I certainly talk about it in my in writing this book, and I felt in writing the book that I had to be incredibly well. I had to just be honest. I had to be honest about the toll that being the target of a lot of criticism of a person that I didn't even see in myself. I was challenged, My morality was challenged for wanting to do this. I was sexually objectified in many ways, certainly not the loud misogyny that you see on social media, because you had the civilizing impact of the men had to have their bylines and often their pictures on the top of the columns. But to me it still felt harsh. It felt crude, it felt demeaning. I didn't handle it well. So I guess to add to the summation, I would say I made some terrible decisions in my life in some ways as a response to feeling very alone and targeted, perhaps to some extent for being a single woman, you know, with blonde hair, I was somewhat slim, so I think people made a lot of assumptions about me, and the implications were that I was there really to wanting to date the ballplayers and to see them naked in their locker room. So those were essentially the implications. So what I did is I somewhat ran for cover. There was a sports journalist I met a week after my lawsuit was filed, and within three weeks he had asked me to marry him, and I just lost my mind at that point and I said I would. And it was a very bad decision in my life that of course ended up with a divorce several years later. But it was a very very unhappy marriage and a very very wrong decision for me to have made in the midst of what was happening to me as part of this lawsuit.

I can try to sum it up. I certainly talk about it in my in writing this book, and I felt in writing the book that I had to be incredibly well. I had to just be honest. I had to be honest about the toll that being the target of a lot of criticism of a person that I didn't even see in myself. I was challenged, My morality was challenged for wanting to do this. I was sexually objectified in many ways, certainly not the loud misogyny that you see on social media, because you had the civilizing impact of the men had to have their bylines and often their pictures on the top of the columns. But to me it still felt harsh. It felt crude, it felt demeaning. I didn't handle it well. So I guess to add to the summation, I would say I made some terrible decisions in my life in some ways as a response to feeling very alone and targeted, perhaps to some extent for being a single woman, you know, with blonde hair, I was somewhat slim, so I think people made a lot of assumptions about me, and the implications were that I was there really to wanting to date the ballplayers and to see them naked in their locker room. So those were essentially the implications. So what I did is I somewhat ran for cover. There was a sports journalist I met a week after my lawsuit was filed, and within three weeks he had asked me to marry him, and I just lost my mind at that point and I said I would. And it was a very bad decision in my life that of course ended up with a divorce several years later. But it was a very very unhappy marriage and a very very wrong decision for me to have made in the midst of what was happening to me as part of this lawsuit.

Feels like protection though, or safety protection against rumors that you're after something else, safety against accusations, and yeah, so it.

Feels like protection though, or safety protection against rumors that you're after something else, safety against accusations, and yeah, so it.

Was a safe harbor. You're right, there's a notion that it would be a safe harbor.

Was a safe harbor. You're right, there's a notion that it would be a safe harbor.

Right.

Right.

What were your feelings after you won the lawsuit?

What were your feelings after you won the lawsuit?

Relief? Relief that I felt like a year of coverage about it might finally end. That was wrong. In fact, it went into the next season, and certainly we've seen indications of this same issues of women just in covering baseball, incidents in locker room, sexual harassment, etc. Play out even up till now. So you know, the victory in court felt very good. I think I felt at the time, again naively, that victory and court would lead to a change in attitudes. I came to understand as I moved through those decades, and certainly by the time I started writing this book maybe in the last five, six, seven years, that that change in attitude took takes a lot longer, And in fact, I'd argue that we haven't quite gotten to where I might have wished we'd gotten, even nearly fifty years later.

Relief? Relief that I felt like a year of coverage about it might finally end. That was wrong. In fact, it went into the next season, and certainly we've seen indications of this same issues of women just in covering baseball, incidents in locker room, sexual harassment, etc. Play out even up till now. So you know, the victory in court felt very good. I think I felt at the time, again naively, that victory and court would lead to a change in attitudes. I came to understand as I moved through those decades, and certainly by the time I started writing this book maybe in the last five, six, seven years, that that change in attitude took takes a lot longer, And in fact, I'd argue that we haven't quite gotten to where I might have wished we'd gotten, even nearly fifty years later.

Yeah, was there retaliation?

Yeah, was there retaliation?

Were there other reporters or players or managers who knew who you were when you came in after the loss. It was one and after you were allowed and okay to be in there, that you felt took it out on you that you had changed things.

Were there other reporters or players or managers who knew who you were when you came in after the loss. It was one and after you were allowed and okay to be in there, that you felt took it out on you that you had changed things.

No, I don't feel like I was retaliated against. I really don't. But I will say that a very dear friend of mine, in fact, the only woman reporter who's in the Hall of Fame in the Writer's Wing, Claire Smith, was still dealing with sort of the residue of my lawsuit and the action I'd taken, and it had been resolved, we thought in seventy eight. She's still in nineteen eighty four, was basically lifted up by two players Padres, lifted out of the locker room, put in the hallway with manager, the manager saying we don't want you in here, we don't like you in here. And so you know, that was still happening, and you know, in some ways buoy Kyun was a man of his word, because it took that incident in Chicago during the National League playoffs for the brand new commissioner Peter Uberroth to issue finally a statement that said we're no longer saying it would be nice if you would treat all reporters the same while they're there, we're saying that you will treat It's a mandate. So it took Qune leaving. It might have taken that incident that Claire had to go through that evening for Peter Ruberroth and Baseball to make the official change in its policy. But again we see through the decades indications that attitudes still we're lagging.

No, I don't feel like I was retaliated against. I really don't. But I will say that a very dear friend of mine, in fact, the only woman reporter who's in the Hall of Fame in the Writer's Wing, Claire Smith, was still dealing with sort of the residue of my lawsuit and the action I'd taken, and it had been resolved, we thought in seventy eight. She's still in nineteen eighty four, was basically lifted up by two players Padres, lifted out of the locker room, put in the hallway with manager, the manager saying we don't want you in here, we don't like you in here. And so you know, that was still happening, and you know, in some ways buoy Kyun was a man of his word, because it took that incident in Chicago during the National League playoffs for the brand new commissioner Peter Uberroth to issue finally a statement that said we're no longer saying it would be nice if you would treat all reporters the same while they're there, we're saying that you will treat It's a mandate. So it took Qune leaving. It might have taken that incident that Claire had to go through that evening for Peter Ruberroth and Baseball to make the official change in its policy. But again we see through the decades indications that attitudes still we're lagging.

Sort of like Title nine.

Sort of like Title nine.

The law can exist, but the enforcement of it is the thing that matters most.

The law can exist, but the enforcement of it is the thing that matters most.

So women can be allowed.

So women can be allowed.

But over the decades, what you see so often is that there are so many women repeating the stories about not feeling fully welcome, being treated poorly, being treated differently, even if technically they are allowed.

But over the decades, what you see so often is that there are so many women repeating the stories about not feeling fully welcome, being treated poorly, being treated differently, even if technically they are allowed.

But I think you're absolutely right, Sarah. I sometimes think back to the history of the Brown versus Board of Education, in which was a nine nothing decision in the Supreme Court in nineteen fifty four, and yet in the early sixties you still found school systems throughout the South and in other places who refuse to adhere to it, and they set up separate academies so they didn't have to adhere to it. So these things, despite an order, despite a landmark ruling, take a lot more than that. They take the pressure of influential people, moving people out of habits into a different place in their thinking, and.

But I think you're absolutely right, Sarah. I sometimes think back to the history of the Brown versus Board of Education, in which was a nine nothing decision in the Supreme Court in nineteen fifty four, and yet in the early sixties you still found school systems throughout the South and in other places who refuse to adhere to it, and they set up separate academies so they didn't have to adhere to it. So these things, despite an order, despite a landmark ruling, take a lot more than that. They take the pressure of influential people, moving people out of habits into a different place in their thinking, and.

The fight sort of continues.

The fight sort of continues.

Every time we rest believing that something has been settled, we run the risk of finding out later it hasn't, as obviously Dobbs showed us, and as an effort to turn back the time on some other things as as well. Despite the fact that women still have to go in and sometimes fight these fights on a smaller scale than an actual lawsuit, which was your battle, you do recognize the impact that you had on other women in the space and other women joining the space in the years that followed as a result of what you did. When you're writing this book now and you look back, how much pride do you feel in understanding the impact that you had and putting your name on that lawsuit and being the first.

Every time we rest believing that something has been settled, we run the risk of finding out later it hasn't, as obviously Dobbs showed us, and as an effort to turn back the time on some other things as as well. Despite the fact that women still have to go in and sometimes fight these fights on a smaller scale than an actual lawsuit, which was your battle, you do recognize the impact that you had on other women in the space and other women joining the space in the years that followed as a result of what you did. When you're writing this book now and you look back, how much pride do you feel in understanding the impact that you had and putting your name on that lawsuit and being the first.

Well, you're not seeing me right now, but I am smiling. There was a lot of reflection that went into writing this book on my part, and I think it's fair to say that one of the things that I might have felt even more as I set out to write this story and till it was a sense of accomplishment and Joy. I write in the book that I thought back, as I was going through my early years to the words that Shirley Chisholm, who had been the first black woman to have a seat in Congress. She was my commencement speaker in nineteen seventy three, and at our commencement she made a point of talking about her own activism. She had run for president the year before, so she was very well known as an activist for civil rights and also women's rights. She urged us, as highly educated women to find our place in what she called the social movements of our time. I had not done that. I had gone into sports media. They were eighteen nineteen hour days for me because of my time at the ballpark every night. I hadn't carved out a space to really become the participatory, act activist in either of those movements, although my heart was certainly with them. But I looked back and I realized that by moving into this space, into this visible space, and winning this lawsuit, which is memorable and did have a lasting impact, that somehow I did finally manage to sort of live up to what she had asked me to do as a sort of soldier in her campaign and I so admire her that there did come a point in writing this book, and I think I actually say it in the book that I did feel as though I lived up to Shirley's words and I love that good.

Well, you're not seeing me right now, but I am smiling. There was a lot of reflection that went into writing this book on my part, and I think it's fair to say that one of the things that I might have felt even more as I set out to write this story and till it was a sense of accomplishment and Joy. I write in the book that I thought back, as I was going through my early years to the words that Shirley Chisholm, who had been the first black woman to have a seat in Congress. She was my commencement speaker in nineteen seventy three, and at our commencement she made a point of talking about her own activism. She had run for president the year before, so she was very well known as an activist for civil rights and also women's rights. She urged us, as highly educated women to find our place in what she called the social movements of our time. I had not done that. I had gone into sports media. They were eighteen nineteen hour days for me because of my time at the ballpark every night. I hadn't carved out a space to really become the participatory, act activist in either of those movements, although my heart was certainly with them. But I looked back and I realized that by moving into this space, into this visible space, and winning this lawsuit, which is memorable and did have a lasting impact, that somehow I did finally manage to sort of live up to what she had asked me to do as a sort of soldier in her campaign and I so admire her that there did come a point in writing this book, and I think I actually say it in the book that I did feel as though I lived up to Shirley's words and I love that good.

Yeah, that's wonderful.

Yeah, that's wonderful.

Run out of time here, but I want to ask you, you know, understanding the fight that you put up for access in locker rooms, how do you feel about the potential change in the way pro sports operate taking interviews outside of that space like they do in that WNBA, like the NFLPA working toward most professional women's sports now don't offer up access in the PWHL, in the NWSL, the interviews are done outside the locker room. Do you feel like that's something that can be done in other professional spaces, assuming that there is still control over deadlines and time and whether athletes have to participate, as long as it's done in a different space.

Run out of time here, but I want to ask you, you know, understanding the fight that you put up for access in locker rooms, how do you feel about the potential change in the way pro sports operate taking interviews outside of that space like they do in that WNBA, like the NFLPA working toward most professional women's sports now don't offer up access in the PWHL, in the NWSL, the interviews are done outside the locker room. Do you feel like that's something that can be done in other professional spaces, assuming that there is still control over deadlines and time and whether athletes have to participate, as long as it's done in a different space.

The short answer is yes, And in terms of my own situation and how it relates to what's happening today, we were always fighting not for access to the locker room, but for equal access to the athletes. Had Baseball decided at that time to move the interviews outside of the clubhouse and provide the same access to men and women. The order that my judge ruled in my case, that would have solved their problem. But at the time, and we found this out in our discovery process, the men who were covering baseball were communicating with the commissioner's office and sort of warning him, however, you take care of this lucky situation. Do not take away our access, do not. And so, in fact, I think that baseball and other sports in the seventies were almost singularly relying on newspaper coverage to drive people to those stadiums. That is very different now, as we know, and so we're in a very different media environment. We're in a very different ecosystem. The players are on Instagram, they send out their stories, they're even players channels that they can send out their information on. They are no longer dependent on newspapers in particular, who needed that kind of access to write the kind of in depth stories that they wanted to write, carrying the emotion and the rest that we now might get mainly through TV into people's living rooms the next morning. It was sort of a direct way to convey what TV largely conveys. Do I feel that there's still a reason for players, I mean for people to want to be in a clubhouse. I do because with a team sport as large as a team is in baseball or football, unlike basketball, by the way, you have, I believe a need for that communicator to be able to see and hear the dynamics that are going on between the team members. There is nothing that can be conveyed on a conference table with three microphones in a conference room that will give you the kind of paragraphs that Roger Kahn wrote at the end of the nineteen fifty five World Series, when the Brooklyn Dodgers came into that locker room and sat there, I would urge people to go back and read the Voice of Summer. It's a fabulous It takes you in there, you understand the feelings you see in their actions. That's what a writer can do. If you're doing mainly radio TV and you're putting it out on social media as a press conference, of course you can do that the way they're doing it now. But I think I've given you a sense of where I come down on this. But as it relates to my case, we never pretended it was never an issue of us saying we're going to federal court so that I can be in the locker room. That was never it. That's how the stories conveyed it because the male writers did not want to treat it as an equal rights case. They wanted to treat it as a woman invading a man's space, etc. So that's why people have a misinterpretation in many ways that I was fighting to get inside of locker room so as fighting for equal access. So you know, who am I to say that elite can't provide equal access in the way they want to their athletes. You know, it's a tough question.

The short answer is yes, And in terms of my own situation and how it relates to what's happening today, we were always fighting not for access to the locker room, but for equal access to the athletes. Had Baseball decided at that time to move the interviews outside of the clubhouse and provide the same access to men and women. The order that my judge ruled in my case, that would have solved their problem. But at the time, and we found this out in our discovery process, the men who were covering baseball were communicating with the commissioner's office and sort of warning him, however, you take care of this lucky situation. Do not take away our access, do not. And so, in fact, I think that baseball and other sports in the seventies were almost singularly relying on newspaper coverage to drive people to those stadiums. That is very different now, as we know, and so we're in a very different media environment. We're in a very different ecosystem. The players are on Instagram, they send out their stories, they're even players channels that they can send out their information on. They are no longer dependent on newspapers in particular, who needed that kind of access to write the kind of in depth stories that they wanted to write, carrying the emotion and the rest that we now might get mainly through TV into people's living rooms the next morning. It was sort of a direct way to convey what TV largely conveys. Do I feel that there's still a reason for players, I mean for people to want to be in a clubhouse. I do because with a team sport as large as a team is in baseball or football, unlike basketball, by the way, you have, I believe a need for that communicator to be able to see and hear the dynamics that are going on between the team members. There is nothing that can be conveyed on a conference table with three microphones in a conference room that will give you the kind of paragraphs that Roger Kahn wrote at the end of the nineteen fifty five World Series, when the Brooklyn Dodgers came into that locker room and sat there, I would urge people to go back and read the Voice of Summer. It's a fabulous It takes you in there, you understand the feelings you see in their actions. That's what a writer can do. If you're doing mainly radio TV and you're putting it out on social media as a press conference, of course you can do that the way they're doing it now. But I think I've given you a sense of where I come down on this. But as it relates to my case, we never pretended it was never an issue of us saying we're going to federal court so that I can be in the locker room. That was never it. That's how the stories conveyed it because the male writers did not want to treat it as an equal rights case. They wanted to treat it as a woman invading a man's space, etc. So that's why people have a misinterpretation in many ways that I was fighting to get inside of locker room so as fighting for equal access. So you know, who am I to say that elite can't provide equal access in the way they want to their athletes. You know, it's a tough question.

You bring up some interesting points, though, and we're going to keep having this conversation on the show, because there are elements of immediacy. There are elements of elusiveness from athletes if they know that they can evade the media by just waiting long enough before coming out, and then they'll skip deadlines and other things. And then the personal connection and the relationships that you can create in a locker room that aren't done with simple scrums. There's so many elements to this. But your perspective is fascinating and the book is fascinating. Locker room talk a woman struggle to get inside. There is so much to be learned by hearing stories from people like Melissa Ludkey and how things were decades ago. A specially when we see how things have not changed, it reminds us that the fight remains in so many ways, but also how far we've come in some ways. So Melissa, thank you so much for the time, and thank you for writing the book, and thank you for being part of the reason that I've been able to be in locker rooms and do the job that I do.

You bring up some interesting points, though, and we're going to keep having this conversation on the show, because there are elements of immediacy. There are elements of elusiveness from athletes if they know that they can evade the media by just waiting long enough before coming out, and then they'll skip deadlines and other things. And then the personal connection and the relationships that you can create in a locker room that aren't done with simple scrums. There's so many elements to this. But your perspective is fascinating and the book is fascinating. Locker room talk a woman struggle to get inside. There is so much to be learned by hearing stories from people like Melissa Ludkey and how things were decades ago. A specially when we see how things have not changed, it reminds us that the fight remains in so many ways, but also how far we've come in some ways. So Melissa, thank you so much for the time, and thank you for writing the book, and thank you for being part of the reason that I've been able to be in locker rooms and do the job that I do.

Sarah, what a pleasure it is to be with you. Thanks so much for thinking of me.

Sarah, what a pleasure it is to be with you. Thanks so much for thinking of me.

Thanks again to Melissa for joining us. We have to take another break when we come back, step back, bro, Welcome back, my little slices. We love that you're listening, but we always want you to get in the game every day too. So here's our good gameplay of the day. Duh winner take all Game five tonight, Baby, who's going to meet the Liberty in the finals?

Thanks again to Melissa for joining us. We have to take another break when we come back, step back, bro, Welcome back, my little slices. We love that you're listening, but we always want you to get in the game every day too. So here's our good gameplay of the day. Duh winner take all Game five tonight, Baby, who's going to meet the Liberty in the finals?

The Sun or the Links?

The Sun or the Links?

You got to watch eight pm Eastern ESPN two and we always love to hear from you, so hit us up on email. Good game at wondermedianetwork dot com. Or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two oh four fifty seventy, and don't forget to subscribe, Rate and review. It's so easy. Watch people who step closer to you when you step away from them. Rating zero out of five review How are you not even remotely self aware? I took a step back because you're talking too close. I can literally smell what you had for lunch, and I can see the leftovers in your teeth. Get the hint, bro, And if I keep stepping back and you keep stepping toward me, we're literally going to fight spatial awareness.

You got to watch eight pm Eastern ESPN two and we always love to hear from you, so hit us up on email. Good game at wondermedianetwork dot com. Or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two oh four fifty seventy, and don't forget to subscribe, Rate and review. It's so easy. Watch people who step closer to you when you step away from them. Rating zero out of five review How are you not even remotely self aware? I took a step back because you're talking too close. I can literally smell what you had for lunch, and I can see the leftovers in your teeth. Get the hint, bro, And if I keep stepping back and you keep stepping toward me, we're literally going to fight spatial awareness.

Motherfucker.

Motherfucker.

Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good Game, Melissa, Good Game, Billy Jean King again and forever few people who think women are trying to pick up a man in the locker room. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett Jesse Katz. It's Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rudder, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch and Lindsay Cradwell.

Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good Game, Melissa, Good Game, Billy Jean King again and forever few people who think women are trying to pick up a man in the locker room. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett Jesse Katz. It's Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rudder, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch and Lindsay Cradwell.

Production assistant from Lucy

Production assistant from Lucy

Jones and I'm Your Host Santa Spain,

Jones and I'm Your Host Santa Spain,