Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're writing letters to our representatives telling them all the ways they actually can support girls and women in sports. It's Thursday, January sixteenth that on today's show, we'll be talking to ESPN feature writer Katie Barnes about the news that House Republicans have passed a bill barring trans athletes from women's sports. Plus, it pays to be a Husky its core season in the w and we offer up a little bookstore redecorating advice. It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices. Here's what you need to know today. The US House of Representatives on Tuesday passed a bill that would prohibit transgender girls and women from competing on school athletic teams that are designated for female students.

Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're writing letters to our representatives telling them all the ways they actually can support girls and women in sports. It's Thursday, January sixteenth that on today's show, we'll be talking to ESPN feature writer Katie Barnes about the news that House Republicans have passed a bill barring trans athletes from women's sports. Plus, it pays to be a Husky its core season in the w and we offer up a little bookstore redecorating advice. It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices. Here's what you need to know today. The US House of Representatives on Tuesday passed a bill that would prohibit transgender girls and women from competing on school athletic teams that are designated for female students.

If the Senate approves the.

If the Senate approves the.

Bill and it goes on to become law, schools that allow trans girls or women to compete could lose federal funding. We're going to dive deep into this news with today's guest Katie Barnes later in the show. College Hoops News, the Yukon Huskies are the first public women's college program to report more than three million dollars in annual ticket sales. That number three point twenty five million, to be exact, was disclosed on Wednesday as part of the school's most recent NCAA financial reporting. Per Sportico, Yukon women's basketball generated more revenue than that reported by seventy five public men's teams the prior year. We'll link to the full Sportico report in our show Notes to Soccer.

Bill and it goes on to become law, schools that allow trans girls or women to compete could lose federal funding. We're going to dive deep into this news with today's guest Katie Barnes later in the show. College Hoops News, the Yukon Huskies are the first public women's college program to report more than three million dollars in annual ticket sales. That number three point twenty five million, to be exact, was disclosed on Wednesday as part of the school's most recent NCAA financial reporting. Per Sportico, Yukon women's basketball generated more revenue than that reported by seventy five public men's teams the prior year. We'll link to the full Sportico report in our show Notes to Soccer.

Former captain of.

Former captain of.

The Kansas City Current Desire Scott is coming out of her a very brief retirement to join the Ottawa Rapid, one of the inaugural six clubs in the Northern Super League, Canada's new pro soccer league. Scott is a four time Olympian for the Canadian national team, winning Golden Tokyo and bronze medals at the twenty twelve London and twenty sixteen Rio Games. All six NSL rosters are starting to fill out. Among the highlights, longtime Canadian goalie Aaron McLeod has signed with the Halifax Tides, and American Nikki Stanton, who most recently played for the NWSL Seattle Rain, has signed to Vancouver Rise FC. Inaugural NSL season gets underway, in April to the WNBA. The Seattle Storm have cored Gabby Williams, who played twelve games for the franchise after helping lead France to a silver medal at last year's Paras Olympics.

The Kansas City Current Desire Scott is coming out of her a very brief retirement to join the Ottawa Rapid, one of the inaugural six clubs in the Northern Super League, Canada's new pro soccer league. Scott is a four time Olympian for the Canadian national team, winning Golden Tokyo and bronze medals at the twenty twelve London and twenty sixteen Rio Games. All six NSL rosters are starting to fill out. Among the highlights, longtime Canadian goalie Aaron McLeod has signed with the Halifax Tides, and American Nikki Stanton, who most recently played for the NWSL Seattle Rain, has signed to Vancouver Rise FC. Inaugural NSL season gets underway, in April to the WNBA. The Seattle Storm have cored Gabby Williams, who played twelve games for the franchise after helping lead France to a silver medal at last year's Paras Olympics.

The court designation.

The court designation.

Means that teams gain the exclusive negotiating rights for players who are otherwise set to become free agents. In other words, Williams isn't guaranteed to stay with the Storm, but at the very least she'll be offered a one year super max contract, currently worth two hundred and forty nine thou two hundred and forty four bucks. Each WNBA team has until January twentieth to extend core designations. Other players who have already received offers include Las Vegas Kelsey Plum, New York's Brianna Stewart, and Dallas's Sattuo Sabily, though Sably is expected to negotiate a trade to another team after announcing at Unrivaled Pressers she's played her last.

Means that teams gain the exclusive negotiating rights for players who are otherwise set to become free agents. In other words, Williams isn't guaranteed to stay with the Storm, but at the very least she'll be offered a one year super max contract, currently worth two hundred and forty nine thou two hundred and forty four bucks. Each WNBA team has until January twentieth to extend core designations. Other players who have already received offers include Las Vegas Kelsey Plum, New York's Brianna Stewart, and Dallas's Sattuo Sabily, though Sably is expected to negotiate a trade to another team after announcing at Unrivaled Pressers she's played her last.

Game for Dallas.

Game for Dallas.

To tennis and the Australian Open, Naomi Osaka is into the third round after defeating world number twenty Carolina Mouhova in marks Osaka's first time advancing to the third round of any Grant's line in three years. Osaka, a two time Australian Open champ, will face Belinda Bencicic. While Osaka's been successful on the court, it's been a very chaotic couple of weeks for the twenty seven year old off it. Last week, she announced that her relationship with longtime partner Rapper Corde had ended. They started dating in twenty nineteen and share a daughter, Shi, who.

To tennis and the Australian Open, Naomi Osaka is into the third round after defeating world number twenty Carolina Mouhova in marks Osaka's first time advancing to the third round of any Grant's line in three years. Osaka, a two time Australian Open champ, will face Belinda Bencicic. While Osaka's been successful on the court, it's been a very chaotic couple of weeks for the twenty seven year old off it. Last week, she announced that her relationship with longtime partner Rapper Corde had ended. They started dating in twenty nineteen and share a daughter, Shi, who.

Is one and a half.

Is one and a half.

Osaka also told reporters in Melbourne that the Los Angeles wildfires made it within three blocks of her home, causing her to ask someone back home to retrieve her daughter's birth certificate in case the house was lost in the wildfires. To pro volleyball, love isn't the only game in town. The Pro Volleyball Federation just started its second season with eight teams around the country, and last week the Omaha Supernovas reset the US pro Volleyball attendance record when thirteen thousy, four hundred and eighty six people crammed into the Chi Health Center in downtown Omaha to see the team win a five set thriller over the Atlanta Vibe. There are six PVF teams in action tonight, beginning with the Indie Ignite taken on Grand Rapids and the Columbus Fury at the Atlanta Vibe, both at seven pm Eastern. Will link to the full game schedule and tune in info in our show notes.

Osaka also told reporters in Melbourne that the Los Angeles wildfires made it within three blocks of her home, causing her to ask someone back home to retrieve her daughter's birth certificate in case the house was lost in the wildfires. To pro volleyball, love isn't the only game in town. The Pro Volleyball Federation just started its second season with eight teams around the country, and last week the Omaha Supernovas reset the US pro Volleyball attendance record when thirteen thousy, four hundred and eighty six people crammed into the Chi Health Center in downtown Omaha to see the team win a five set thriller over the Atlanta Vibe. There are six PVF teams in action tonight, beginning with the Indie Ignite taken on Grand Rapids and the Columbus Fury at the Atlanta Vibe, both at seven pm Eastern. Will link to the full game schedule and tune in info in our show notes.

We got to take a quick break. When we come back.

We got to take a quick break. When we come back.

Everything you need to know about the very inaccurately named Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act with Katie.

Everything you need to know about the very inaccurately named Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act with Katie.

Barnes joining us now.

Barnes joining us now.

They're an award winning journalists, producer, and author covering the intersection of sports and gender. Their work has appeared across multiple ESPN platforms, including ESPN dot Com, Sports Center, Outside the Lines, and the ESPN Daily Podcast.

They're an award winning journalists, producer, and author covering the intersection of sports and gender. Their work has appeared across multiple ESPN platforms, including ESPN dot Com, Sports Center, Outside the Lines, and the ESPN Daily Podcast.

They're a three time GLAD nominee, and we're.

They're a three time GLAD nominee, and we're.

Named the twenty seventeen Journalist of the Year by the Association of LGBTQ Journalists. Their book Fair Play, How Sports Shape the Gender Debates was on Time Magazine's list of one hundred must read books of twenty twenty three. They love Bourbon and Disneyland, and they've been to the best women's sports bar in Chicago more times than I have. I'm working on it, Katie Barnes what's up, Katie?

Named the twenty seventeen Journalist of the Year by the Association of LGBTQ Journalists. Their book Fair Play, How Sports Shape the Gender Debates was on Time Magazine's list of one hundred must read books of twenty twenty three. They love Bourbon and Disneyland, and they've been to the best women's sports bar in Chicago more times than I have. I'm working on it, Katie Barnes what's up, Katie?

Yo? What's up?

Yo? What's up?

What an intro? I feel so cool? Thank you?

What an intro? I feel so cool? Thank you?

Well, I mean you are cool. Fun fact.

Well, I mean you are cool. Fun fact.

Once for a gift, I asked for two books, both of them named fair Play. I'm sure you recognize that there's another book also named fair Play that sometimes people mistake for yours.

Once for a gift, I asked for two books, both of them named fair Play. I'm sure you recognize that there's another book also named fair Play that sometimes people mistake for yours.

Both fantastic books. I got them both for the same birthday.

Both fantastic books. I got them both for the same birthday.

I first of all love it. Second of all, yes, I do know that.

I first of all love it. Second of all, yes, I do know that.

They're about wildly different things. Yeah, both about gender. So that's kind of interesting and both fascinating. Thanks for making time for us last minute.

They're about wildly different things. Yeah, both about gender. So that's kind of interesting and both fascinating. Thanks for making time for us last minute.

You are here today to help us make sense of the we believe very poorly named Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act bill that the House just voted to pass on Tuesday. So can you sort of break down what the bill intends to do?

You are here today to help us make sense of the we believe very poorly named Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act bill that the House just voted to pass on Tuesday. So can you sort of break down what the bill intends to do?

Yeah, So, what the bill does is it builds on legislation that has passed across the country that bars trench into girls and women from participating in girls and women's sports at the school in collegiate levels. What is different, however, about the piece of legislation is actually a men's Title nine to define sex as being determined by a reproductive biology and genetics at birth direct quote, and then ties federal funding to the issue of a transgender girls and women participating girls women's sports by basically saying that you'd be out of compliance with Title nine if any school enacted such a policy. So it is incredibly broad in terms of how far it reaches, but it's also very specific in that it is at the school level because it's about federal funding and Title nine and not about how a state is defining sex or about who's eligible for school sports. It's different and interesting in that regard from a policy perspective.

Yeah, So, what the bill does is it builds on legislation that has passed across the country that bars trench into girls and women from participating in girls and women's sports at the school in collegiate levels. What is different, however, about the piece of legislation is actually a men's Title nine to define sex as being determined by a reproductive biology and genetics at birth direct quote, and then ties federal funding to the issue of a transgender girls and women participating girls women's sports by basically saying that you'd be out of compliance with Title nine if any school enacted such a policy. So it is incredibly broad in terms of how far it reaches, but it's also very specific in that it is at the school level because it's about federal funding and Title nine and not about how a state is defining sex or about who's eligible for school sports. It's different and interesting in that regard from a policy perspective.

And it doesn't seek different policies for those levels of education. Right, So the same policy would apply to a third grader as a collegiate athlete.

And it doesn't seek different policies for those levels of education. Right, So the same policy would apply to a third grader as a collegiate athlete.

Yeah, I think there's some question about that, but as it's written, that is certainly what it looks like, in that there is no differentiation in the text or any enumeration of how this would be applied across different school categories. It basically says federal funding for institutions that you receive it, which is pretty much every school in the country, and as we know, Title nine, although we often talk about it in a collegiate sense and in a women's sports sense. Title nine applied, it's an equal access education law, so it applies to any school receiving federal funding, which includes private schools.

Yeah, I think there's some question about that, but as it's written, that is certainly what it looks like, in that there is no differentiation in the text or any enumeration of how this would be applied across different school categories. It basically says federal funding for institutions that you receive it, which is pretty much every school in the country, and as we know, Title nine, although we often talk about it in a collegiate sense and in a women's sports sense. Title nine applied, it's an equal access education law, so it applies to any school receiving federal funding, which includes private schools.

It includes elementary schools, middle schools.

It includes elementary schools, middle schools.

And because there is no differentiation at this point as it's written, that is certainly the interpretation that a lot of people have of it.

And because there is no differentiation at this point as it's written, that is certainly the interpretation that a lot of people have of it.

Yeah, the amendment to the federal law, the Title nine law, is an interesting one because, as to your point, it requires that sex will be recognized solely on a person's reproductive biology and genetics at birth for determining compliance. Those who are in support of this bill, many of whom seem to believe that that is the only way to acknowledge gender, then don't really believe it to be an amendment. They believe it to be a reinforcement of Title nine, because their insistence is that the only gender is that associated with your reproductive biology, whereas Title nine, without saying so much, has sort of thus far allowed for gender identity to dictate in many ways.

Yeah, the amendment to the federal law, the Title nine law, is an interesting one because, as to your point, it requires that sex will be recognized solely on a person's reproductive biology and genetics at birth for determining compliance. Those who are in support of this bill, many of whom seem to believe that that is the only way to acknowledge gender, then don't really believe it to be an amendment. They believe it to be a reinforcement of Title nine, because their insistence is that the only gender is that associated with your reproductive biology, whereas Title nine, without saying so much, has sort of thus far allowed for gender identity to dictate in many ways.

Your participation is that accurate?

Your participation is that accurate?

Yeah, I mean, I think in general, the core of the legal dispute around transgender students and transgender athletes participating in school sports is about how Title nine should be applied. And also, you know, litigating existing case law about sex based discrimination. So you have folks who are arguing in favor of inclusive policy in schools and inclusive policy for transgender student athletes at.

Yeah, I mean, I think in general, the core of the legal dispute around transgender students and transgender athletes participating in school sports is about how Title nine should be applied. And also, you know, litigating existing case law about sex based discrimination. So you have folks who are arguing in favor of inclusive policy in schools and inclusive policy for transgender student athletes at.

The school sports level.

The school sports level.

Mostly you know, looking at this case law that has been built that goes from this case. It's like Price Waterhouse be Hopkins from nineteen eighty nine up to Bosstoc, which is a Title seven ruling about employment discrimination just from a few years ago, and building their case on how sex based discrimination applies to sex stereotypes and therefore would apply to gender identity, et cetera.

Mostly you know, looking at this case law that has been built that goes from this case. It's like Price Waterhouse be Hopkins from nineteen eighty nine up to Bosstoc, which is a Title seven ruling about employment discrimination just from a few years ago, and building their case on how sex based discrimination applies to sex stereotypes and therefore would apply to gender identity, et cetera.

Like, it's a very clear line of thinking in that regard.

Like, it's a very clear line of thinking in that regard.

And for those who are in favor of restrictive policy for transgender students and athletes, they argue that Title nine does not need any additional discussion, right, Like it says on the basis.

And for those who are in favor of restrictive policy for transgender students and athletes, they argue that Title nine does not need any additional discussion, right, Like it says on the basis.

Of sex is fixed and immutable.

Of sex is fixed and immutable.

The end is what as opposed to gender right, right, And so the interpretation of these words is core to all of the legal proceedings that are happening across the country in terms of challenging the already existing legislation at the state level as well as you know, the few Title nine cases specifically that have been litigated as they pertain to transgender students and schools as well as transgender athletes. In my brain, I'm doing this calculation of, Oh, it feels like it would it would be more jarring to convince people to change existing Title nine law. So in order to soften that blow, you say you're not actually changing anything. It's very explicit in what it says about sex. On the other hand, our government and the people in charge are rapidly changing, and I wonder if there is much pushback to the idea of changing Title nine, or if a lot of the people in Congress and the Senate actually believe that Title nine is a law whose strength should be weakened, is a law whose enforcement should continue to be not properly enforced. Because we saw with like Betsy de Vas and some others in the previous Trump administration, there was certainly what felt like a desire.

The end is what as opposed to gender right, right, And so the interpretation of these words is core to all of the legal proceedings that are happening across the country in terms of challenging the already existing legislation at the state level as well as you know, the few Title nine cases specifically that have been litigated as they pertain to transgender students and schools as well as transgender athletes. In my brain, I'm doing this calculation of, Oh, it feels like it would it would be more jarring to convince people to change existing Title nine law. So in order to soften that blow, you say you're not actually changing anything. It's very explicit in what it says about sex. On the other hand, our government and the people in charge are rapidly changing, and I wonder if there is much pushback to the idea of changing Title nine, or if a lot of the people in Congress and the Senate actually believe that Title nine is a law whose strength should be weakened, is a law whose enforcement should continue to be not properly enforced. Because we saw with like Betsy de Vas and some others in the previous Trump administration, there was certainly what felt like a desire.

To take some of the teeth out of Title nine.

To take some of the teeth out of Title nine.

Well, it's interesting in terms of, you know, taking some the teeth out of Title nine. It's actually in fascinating to me because you know, under the first Trump administration, you know, Betsy Devas in the later years and the Department of Education, you know, really weabinized Title nine specifically against transgender athletes and policy as it pertains to transgender athletes holding up funding in the state of Connecticut for a couple, like for a completely non related magnet program in New Haven. Eventually that funding was granted, but that did happen, and it was specifically about transgender inclusive policy in the state, as well as forcing Franklin Pierce University to change its policy that allowed for cc Telford to compete on its team and then win a national championship in twenty nineteen in Division two hurdles and on this category.

Well, it's interesting in terms of, you know, taking some the teeth out of Title nine. It's actually in fascinating to me because you know, under the first Trump administration, you know, Betsy Devas in the later years and the Department of Education, you know, really weabinized Title nine specifically against transgender athletes and policy as it pertains to transgender athletes holding up funding in the state of Connecticut for a couple, like for a completely non related magnet program in New Haven. Eventually that funding was granted, but that did happen, and it was specifically about transgender inclusive policy in the state, as well as forcing Franklin Pierce University to change its policy that allowed for cc Telford to compete on its team and then win a national championship in twenty nineteen in Division two hurdles and on this category.

Yeah, I think I'm thinking of Betsy Devas trying to use Title nine in issues of sexual assault.

Yeah, I think I'm thinking of Betsy Devas trying to use Title nine in issues of sexual assault.

Yes, right, so there was like a role back there and then a weaponization in other spaces.

Yes, right, so there was like a role back there and then a weaponization in other spaces.

Interesting.

Interesting.

But I think what's fascinating about some of this conversation is that for a lot of the general public, transgender athletes as an idea and as an issue really came to the public consciousness around like really with Leah Thomas.

But I think what's fascinating about some of this conversation is that for a lot of the general public, transgender athletes as an idea and as an issue really came to the public consciousness around like really with Leah Thomas.

In twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two.

In twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two.

But this topic had been a legal football for years before that, going back to the Obama administration sending out, you know, basically formal guidance around how to treat transgender students in schools in twenty sixteen and saying that transgender youth should be affirmed in this in these ways, and twenty three states sued the Obama administration over the implementation of that guidance and it never went into full effect. And then you have the first Trump administration comes in. One of the first things they do is rescind that guidance and so like, this is something that has been part of a back and forth for years pre dating I think with the public really began to become aware of it.

But this topic had been a legal football for years before that, going back to the Obama administration sending out, you know, basically formal guidance around how to treat transgender students in schools in twenty sixteen and saying that transgender youth should be affirmed in this in these ways, and twenty three states sued the Obama administration over the implementation of that guidance and it never went into full effect. And then you have the first Trump administration comes in. One of the first things they do is rescind that guidance and so like, this is something that has been part of a back and forth for years pre dating I think with the public really began to become aware of it.

One of the things that I'm curious about, if the desire is to make all participation coincide with reproductive biology and genetics at birth, there are a lot of politicians who are all too eager to conflate transgender athletes and athletes with DSDs so differences in sex development, and also even cisgender women who maybe just present as more masks or are physically strong or tall or bigger, all those things that we hear about the worst case scenarios where parents are yelling at athletes on the field that's a boy without any proof, without any reason other than this now desire to sort of take all of the anti trans rhetoric and apply it in other.

One of the things that I'm curious about, if the desire is to make all participation coincide with reproductive biology and genetics at birth, there are a lot of politicians who are all too eager to conflate transgender athletes and athletes with DSDs so differences in sex development, and also even cisgender women who maybe just present as more masks or are physically strong or tall or bigger, all those things that we hear about the worst case scenarios where parents are yelling at athletes on the field that's a boy without any proof, without any reason other than this now desire to sort of take all of the anti trans rhetoric and apply it in other.

Spaces as well.

Spaces as well.

Do we yet know how this bill might impact athletes with DSDs, because right now the Democrats and those who are voting against this bill are saying one of the worst possible outcomes is genital testing or other violations of young girls in order to quote unquote prove their sex for participation. Side is saying that's never going to happen. We're just gonna use birth certificates. What happens if a birth certificate says one thing and either presentation or otherwise seems to imply, whether you have the science behind it or not, that there are differences in sex.

Do we yet know how this bill might impact athletes with DSDs, because right now the Democrats and those who are voting against this bill are saying one of the worst possible outcomes is genital testing or other violations of young girls in order to quote unquote prove their sex for participation. Side is saying that's never going to happen. We're just gonna use birth certificates. What happens if a birth certificate says one thing and either presentation or otherwise seems to imply, whether you have the science behind it or not, that there are differences in sex.

How does that work with this bill?

How does that work with this bill?

Oh, that's a really great question. I'll take it like in three different parts. So the first is that there is no specific mention of athletes with differences of sex development. I think the best indication of how this could possibly apply be applied is the usage of verbiage genetics at birth direct quote right, So, if you're somebody who is X Y and you have a difference of sex development that would cause you to be assigned female at birth or in that case, your genetics at birth would be x y the end. So I think that is probably the perspective there, though I do not know for sure.

Oh, that's a really great question. I'll take it like in three different parts. So the first is that there is no specific mention of athletes with differences of sex development. I think the best indication of how this could possibly apply be applied is the usage of verbiage genetics at birth direct quote right, So, if you're somebody who is X Y and you have a difference of sex development that would cause you to be assigned female at birth or in that case, your genetics at birth would be x y the end. So I think that is probably the perspective there, though I do not know for sure.

I would also say.

I would also say.

That you know, different to the sex development and the physiology of those athletes, that's something that we talk about at the elite level that is so rarely an issue in like seven year old soccer. And again, this bill makes no distinction between how those conversations are different and how different subsets of athletes could be affected. It's meant to be very broad in that sense and also very rigid, and that there is no flexibility and I don't mean rigid as a pejorative, just that there is no path to porkivision.

That you know, different to the sex development and the physiology of those athletes, that's something that we talk about at the elite level that is so rarely an issue in like seven year old soccer. And again, this bill makes no distinction between how those conversations are different and how different subsets of athletes could be affected. It's meant to be very broad in that sense and also very rigid, and that there is no flexibility and I don't mean rigid as a pejorative, just that there is no path to porkivision.

There are no exceptions. It's just this is what it is.

There are no exceptions. It's just this is what it is.

No nuance.

No nuance.

Yes to your point about if someone was born x Y, which is typically male, but assigned to female at birth, I don't believe it would say that on their birth certificate right that genetic makeup, and oftentimes people with differences of sex development aren't aware of it until they're tested or potentially something comes out later. So I don't know how they would even be able to justify that other than, like I said, worst case scenarios where someone is participating and allowed and everything is normal and then all of a sudden, some parent or otherwise causes a stir as was the case with folks like Castor Semenya, who was a sis woman, raised a woman, all that and then the differences of sex development were what resulted in, you know, all of the trauma around her ability to participate.

Yes to your point about if someone was born x Y, which is typically male, but assigned to female at birth, I don't believe it would say that on their birth certificate right that genetic makeup, and oftentimes people with differences of sex development aren't aware of it until they're tested or potentially something comes out later. So I don't know how they would even be able to justify that other than, like I said, worst case scenarios where someone is participating and allowed and everything is normal and then all of a sudden, some parent or otherwise causes a stir as was the case with folks like Castor Semenya, who was a sis woman, raised a woman, all that and then the differences of sex development were what resulted in, you know, all of the trauma around her ability to participate.

Yeah, I think that's and that was the second point that I was going to make is that the reality is that when you draw a line in the sand, you draw a boundary, you have to police the boundary.

Yeah, I think that's and that was the second point that I was going to make is that the reality is that when you draw a line in the sand, you draw a boundary, you have to police the boundary.

And that's one thing that has been a hallmark.

And that's one thing that has been a hallmark.

Of legislation that has passed at the state level across the country is there's usually some sort of a mechanism for challenging and then resolving a dispute over.

Of legislation that has passed at the state level across the country is there's usually some sort of a mechanism for challenging and then resolving a dispute over.

A student's gender or sex.

A student's gender or sex.

And ultimately, if your sex is challenged, you have to prove that you are who you said you are in some way, and there are some states that allow you to modify your birth certificate.

And ultimately, if your sex is challenged, you have to prove that you are who you said you are in some way, and there are some states that allow you to modify your birth certificate.

Although what we are seeing is in tandem.

Although what we are seeing is in tandem.

With the legislation that effects transgender athletes, we're also seeing legislation that affects a variety of life for transgender people, whether we're talking about youth access to healthcare, or talk about access to documents and document changes to match your documents with your lived experience, your lived identity, and as that becomes continuously fraud and you and people lose access to change their documents, becomes a good point whereas you may not be able to show a birth certificate that's been amended anyway. But also even if there is evidence of you being a transgender person anywhere like that could be surfaced. And that is something that we're also seeing in terms of athletes who are currently competing under state law and policy that allows them to compete and participate in girls' sports in you know, for a variety of sports at their levels, and they are being outed and so it's very complicated and it's creating a lot of fear among transgender youth and their families. But from a broad level in terms of drawing that line and then have a and then requiring proof of some kind, you know, there's a lot of speculator about what that proof could be. And of course proponents for this legislation would say it's very simple, show your birth certificate, but it can be more complicated than that. And also we have seen examples in other states where this legislation has passed already, where people are accused of being trans and are not. And there's also, you know, the trauma of that in terms of sticking out looking different and then being accused of being this big, bad boogeyman who shouldn't be.

With the legislation that effects transgender athletes, we're also seeing legislation that affects a variety of life for transgender people, whether we're talking about youth access to healthcare, or talk about access to documents and document changes to match your documents with your lived experience, your lived identity, and as that becomes continuously fraud and you and people lose access to change their documents, becomes a good point whereas you may not be able to show a birth certificate that's been amended anyway. But also even if there is evidence of you being a transgender person anywhere like that could be surfaced. And that is something that we're also seeing in terms of athletes who are currently competing under state law and policy that allows them to compete and participate in girls' sports in you know, for a variety of sports at their levels, and they are being outed and so it's very complicated and it's creating a lot of fear among transgender youth and their families. But from a broad level in terms of drawing that line and then have a and then requiring proof of some kind, you know, there's a lot of speculator about what that proof could be. And of course proponents for this legislation would say it's very simple, show your birth certificate, but it can be more complicated than that. And also we have seen examples in other states where this legislation has passed already, where people are accused of being trans and are not. And there's also, you know, the trauma of that in terms of sticking out looking different and then being accused of being this big, bad boogeyman who shouldn't be.

Legally able to compete where you're competing.

Legally able to compete where you're competing.

So there's just a lot going on in terms of how these things are going to be resolved, and frankly, a lot of it is speculative, but that doesn't mean that a lot of the questions being raised aren't worthy questions.

So there's just a lot going on in terms of how these things are going to be resolved, and frankly, a lot of it is speculative, but that doesn't mean that a lot of the questions being raised aren't worthy questions.

The bill was passed in the House with a vote of two eighteen to two six. Two Democrats voted in favor, one Democrat voted present. It's expected and next be taken up to the Senate. Are folks expecting similar support from the bill in the GOP controlled Senate?

The bill was passed in the House with a vote of two eighteen to two six. Two Democrats voted in favor, one Democrat voted present. It's expected and next be taken up to the Senate. Are folks expecting similar support from the bill in the GOP controlled Senate?

Oh, you know, that's a really good question. I do not know.

Oh, you know, that's a really good question. I do not know.

I spoke with someone today who is for this legislation. Who is hopeful that it's going to pass in the Senate, it would require seven votes to break a filibuster. Candidly, I do not know if there's seven votes for it. As a reporter, you know, I'm a sports journalist, and all of a sudden, I'm like, Oh, do I have to be a politics journalist?

I spoke with someone today who is for this legislation. Who is hopeful that it's going to pass in the Senate, it would require seven votes to break a filibuster. Candidly, I do not know if there's seven votes for it. As a reporter, you know, I'm a sports journalist, and all of a sudden, I'm like, Oh, do I have to be a politics journalist?

Now?

Now?

Yeah? You do? You do? We expect that of you, Katie.

Yeah? You do? You do? We expect that of you, Katie.

I will say that from what I read, it's not clear if it will pass because to your point, at least seven Democrats would have to vote with the Republican side to hit the sixty vote threshold, and that's sort of an uphill battle according to some who believe it might be tough to pass.

I will say that from what I read, it's not clear if it will pass because to your point, at least seven Democrats would have to vote with the Republican side to hit the sixty vote threshold, and that's sort of an uphill battle according to some who believe it might be tough to pass.

Yeah, but you know, who knows.

Yeah, but you know, who knows.

I think, right, it's certainly an open question.

I think, right, it's certainly an open question.

There's a nondero chance that it passes, you know, and for those who are not in favor of this legislation, that's very worrying. There have been other times where there's been where like the House passed a similar bill last year, and there have been other times where this legislation has been debated, and you know, folks haven't been that worried. But I would say that certainly people I talk to are concerned right now.

There's a nondero chance that it passes, you know, and for those who are not in favor of this legislation, that's very worrying. There have been other times where there's been where like the House passed a similar bill last year, and there have been other times where this legislation has been debated, and you know, folks haven't been that worried. But I would say that certainly people I talk to are concerned right now.

And sometimes there's movement that could be unexpected. During that last session of Congress when they did pass the bill, one of the Democrats who voted for it this time voted against it then, So changes of opinion, a gradual wearing down, changes of language. You just aren't fully certain ever until the vote is taken. Let's say it does get pasted in the Senate. Let's talk about the actual outcomes. So for the last fifty plus years, Title nine was supposed to keep schools in compliance for nondiscrimination based on the basis of sex. They would receive federal funding if they remained in compliance with Title nine. There's a lot of great benefits to Title nine. But as we celebrated the fifty aeth the anniversary just a couple of years ago, what we learned from investigating was that a lot of schools are not in compliance and there is not a great enforcement mechanism other than suing threatening to suit to get schools to comply. Do you have a sense of whether this legislation, which runs along the same lines of Title nine, would be enforced more seriously or any differently than what we've seen with Title nine, which is very hodgepodge.

And sometimes there's movement that could be unexpected. During that last session of Congress when they did pass the bill, one of the Democrats who voted for it this time voted against it then, So changes of opinion, a gradual wearing down, changes of language. You just aren't fully certain ever until the vote is taken. Let's say it does get pasted in the Senate. Let's talk about the actual outcomes. So for the last fifty plus years, Title nine was supposed to keep schools in compliance for nondiscrimination based on the basis of sex. They would receive federal funding if they remained in compliance with Title nine. There's a lot of great benefits to Title nine. But as we celebrated the fifty aeth the anniversary just a couple of years ago, what we learned from investigating was that a lot of schools are not in compliance and there is not a great enforcement mechanism other than suing threatening to suit to get schools to comply. Do you have a sense of whether this legislation, which runs along the same lines of Title nine, would be enforced more seriously or any differently than what we've seen with Title nine, which is very hodgepodge.

You know, I don't know because, like you said, like the way that title hios and force is through investigations in the Department of Education the Office for Civil Rights. You know, those investigations take a very long time. And also you know, there are questions about what the makeup of the Department of Education is going to be.

You know, I don't know because, like you said, like the way that title hios and force is through investigations in the Department of Education the Office for Civil Rights. You know, those investigations take a very long time. And also you know, there are questions about what the makeup of the Department of Education is going to be.

Like moving forward.

Like moving forward.

So how this will be enforced is an open question. But I have no doubt that certainly for transgender.

So how this will be enforced is an open question. But I have no doubt that certainly for transgender.

Youths, there will be a chilling effect.

Youths, there will be a chilling effect.

Yeah, and there already aren't very many transgender kids playing sports, certainly from a percentage of how many transgender youths there are, you know, they play sports at a much lower rate than their's such gender peers. And so in that sense, you know, I wonder how what that effect will be. The Department of Education has shown a willingness to enforce Title nine as it pertains to their interpretation of how it applies to transgender youth and well and transgender people in schools and in colleges, and you know that could also happen again here under this administration. But exactly how it will be enforced again, that is an open question and that and there isn't really a good enforcement mechanism in the text itself.

Yeah, and there already aren't very many transgender kids playing sports, certainly from a percentage of how many transgender youths there are, you know, they play sports at a much lower rate than their's such gender peers. And so in that sense, you know, I wonder how what that effect will be. The Department of Education has shown a willingness to enforce Title nine as it pertains to their interpretation of how it applies to transgender youth and well and transgender people in schools and in colleges, and you know that could also happen again here under this administration. But exactly how it will be enforced again, that is an open question and that and there isn't really a good enforcement mechanism in the text itself.

One of the evil tricks of bookkeeping for Title nine is counting male practice players as women in Title nine reporting to try to meet the numbers and reach equality. Do we know if this bill would prevent teams, particularly college teams, which we know often use male practice players from continue to do so.

One of the evil tricks of bookkeeping for Title nine is counting male practice players as women in Title nine reporting to try to meet the numbers and reach equality. Do we know if this bill would prevent teams, particularly college teams, which we know often use male practice players from continue to do so.

Actually explicitly says the text that it would not, that it does not say to practice players, which I thought, which I thought was interesting. You know, I reported a lot on the San Jose State volleyball story earlier this year, and there's a lot of discussion about safety, safety for women athletes who were getting hit in the face with spikes, et cetera, et cetera. And one of the things that was brought up to me multiple times was that there are you know, men who practice with you know, volleyball players at Power five conferences, and you know, I know somebody who was a power who was a practice player for the Ukon women's basketball team, et cetera. It's a very common practice among women's sports. So I thought that was an interesting note, Like there wasn't very much well.

Actually explicitly says the text that it would not, that it does not say to practice players, which I thought, which I thought was interesting. You know, I reported a lot on the San Jose State volleyball story earlier this year, and there's a lot of discussion about safety, safety for women athletes who were getting hit in the face with spikes, et cetera, et cetera. And one of the things that was brought up to me multiple times was that there are you know, men who practice with you know, volleyball players at Power five conferences, and you know, I know somebody who was a power who was a practice player for the Ukon women's basketball team, et cetera. It's a very common practice among women's sports. So I thought that was an interesting note, Like there wasn't very much well.

Of course, the practice players are able to at all times being complete control of their bodies and the effort that they're putting in solely there to help and never putting anyone at risk. Unlike in competition. This sounds more like the protection of boys and men in sports. Ec Well, we want to make sure we don't mess with the practice players who are guys.

Of course, the practice players are able to at all times being complete control of their bodies and the effort that they're putting in solely there to help and never putting anyone at risk. Unlike in competition. This sounds more like the protection of boys and men in sports. Ec Well, we want to make sure we don't mess with the practice players who are guys.

Well you said that, I have no comment.

Well you said that, I have no comment.

Well, I get to editorialize, Katie.

Well, I get to editorialize, Katie.

You have to be the one who speaks along the lines of exactly what it says to the bills, and I get to just say whatever the fuck I want about this shit. Well.

You have to be the one who speaks along the lines of exactly what it says to the bills, and I get to just say whatever the fuck I want about this shit. Well.

I thought what was interesting though, is like, when we've been talking about this, well, how does this apply or like did they consider this like and my answers are like, well, this wasn't enumerated in the text, this wasn't explicitly said, but the practice players were. So I thought that was a really interesting thing that somebody said, Okay, but wait, we still need to practice with the guys, so please put that in the text.

I thought what was interesting though, is like, when we've been talking about this, well, how does this apply or like did they consider this like and my answers are like, well, this wasn't enumerated in the text, this wasn't explicitly said, but the practice players were. So I thought that was a really interesting thing that somebody said, Okay, but wait, we still need to practice with the guys, so please put that in the text.

And I just thought that was so true. There.

And I just thought that was so true. There.

Yeah, it's like it's a very grandular understanding of how women train at the collegiate level. So I just I don't know, I thought that was noteworthy and just really fascinating.

Yeah, it's like it's a very grandular understanding of how women train at the collegiate level. So I just I don't know, I thought that was noteworthy and just really fascinating.

Yeah, like somebody who actually knows how it goes down was in there clearing space for that, while in many ways ignoring some of the other realities of how this works in order to push forward the rest of the legislation.

Yeah, like somebody who actually knows how it goes down was in there clearing space for that, while in many ways ignoring some of the other realities of how this works in order to push forward the rest of the legislation.

Or at least leaving other questions completely unanswered.

Or at least leaving other questions completely unanswered.

Right Like, that is like one answer.

Right Like, that is like one answer.

That's one question that is specifically answered, and others just or not.

That's one question that is specifically answered, and others just or not.

What are some of the potential unintended consequences that might result from the passing of this bill?

What are some of the potential unintended consequences that might result from the passing of this bill?

Well, like I said, I think the Yeah, there's policing of a boundary that's set, and that is likely just statistically to not only affect transgender athletes. You know, it's a very common experience if you play girls of women's sports to be accused of being a man, to be accused of being queer, right like, regardless of whether or not that is your lived experience, and that is something for that is harmful I think for a lot of athletes in girls of women's sports in terms of self hurt self esteem. For those who are queer, it hurts their sense of self because being queer as a negative thing. Right, We've seen some of this movie before in that sense, and so from an but that also I don't know if that's an undin headed consequence, to be honest with you, fair but yeah, you know, I just think that the the effect of legislation like this that is also really cultural and culturally relevant. I don't know that we fully know or grapple with like what that actually will be. And then I think could very demonstrable effect is that a lot of transgender kids are not going to feel welcome in sports and may not play even at.

Well, like I said, I think the Yeah, there's policing of a boundary that's set, and that is likely just statistically to not only affect transgender athletes. You know, it's a very common experience if you play girls of women's sports to be accused of being a man, to be accused of being queer, right like, regardless of whether or not that is your lived experience, and that is something for that is harmful I think for a lot of athletes in girls of women's sports in terms of self hurt self esteem. For those who are queer, it hurts their sense of self because being queer as a negative thing. Right, We've seen some of this movie before in that sense, and so from an but that also I don't know if that's an undin headed consequence, to be honest with you, fair but yeah, you know, I just think that the the effect of legislation like this that is also really cultural and culturally relevant. I don't know that we fully know or grapple with like what that actually will be. And then I think could very demonstrable effect is that a lot of transgender kids are not going to feel welcome in sports and may not play even at.

A higher rate than they already are playing.

A higher rate than they already are playing.

Yeah, I think a couple points on that the idea that, well, it says right in there just to use their birth certificate. Are we for certain that that's what's going to happen at the granular level at every single school in every single state, in every single city, as opposed to somebody feeling that they take it on themselves or feeling like there must be some way to prove quote unquote something right, and then it does become an issue of safety and risk and violation. I think to your point about what this means for both participation at the youth level and the feeling of community inclusion. This clearly to me is taking an issue that is very binary focused and using it as the first step towards major trans rights and safety being affected in future policy. Right, if you can get people on board being anti trans, fear mongering, scaring people, making trans people the big boogeyman, then you can convince them later that they also shouldn't be in bathrooms, that they also shouldn't have protections for employment, that they also shouldn't be allowed to marry.

Yeah, I think a couple points on that the idea that, well, it says right in there just to use their birth certificate. Are we for certain that that's what's going to happen at the granular level at every single school in every single state, in every single city, as opposed to somebody feeling that they take it on themselves or feeling like there must be some way to prove quote unquote something right, and then it does become an issue of safety and risk and violation. I think to your point about what this means for both participation at the youth level and the feeling of community inclusion. This clearly to me is taking an issue that is very binary focused and using it as the first step towards major trans rights and safety being affected in future policy. Right, if you can get people on board being anti trans, fear mongering, scaring people, making trans people the big boogeyman, then you can convince them later that they also shouldn't be in bathrooms, that they also shouldn't have protections for employment, that they also shouldn't be allowed to marry.

Right. I mean it feels like the sports issue is.

Right. I mean it feels like the sports issue is.

A political cudgel and an easy one to convince people of along these lines we've talked about that are often not scientifically backed or proven, just so that once you get them on the side of demonizing trans people, then they'll be further incentivized to pass for future laws and bills.

A political cudgel and an easy one to convince people of along these lines we've talked about that are often not scientifically backed or proven, just so that once you get them on the side of demonizing trans people, then they'll be further incentivized to pass for future laws and bills.

I think legislatively at the state level, that is something that has been seen in terms of the types of legislation that passes of after passing a bill about sports, So whether it's access to gender firming care for transgender youth, restrictions on access to content that involved queer and trans people from like what we're talking about book bans or academic restriction in that sense, talking about you know, even like in some states there have been banned you know, either actual passage of legislation or attempts to past legislation that restricts you know, the expression of drag right like, So there is a wider suite of legislative priorities that expand out from this topic. Although what I will say is it's interesting because I think legislatively in some states you've seen that, and also my experience on the ground talking to people is you know, they really grapple with like the sports thing and maybe gender firming healthcare they have questions about, but the other stuff isn't necessarily on their radar or they don't necessarily associate this the sports conversation with the conversation about transgender identity at all. It's mostly about to them, Oh, well, if you're a signed male at BURR, why would you be allowed to play girls sports? That doesn't make sense to me because culturally and to a certain degree scientifically, you know, there is an imbalance in terms of access and performance when it comes to you know, boys and men being typically bigger, faster, stronger than girls and women, Now what that means at a variety of levels of sport, and whether or not that should be applied to intramural and club level sport.

I think legislatively at the state level, that is something that has been seen in terms of the types of legislation that passes of after passing a bill about sports, So whether it's access to gender firming care for transgender youth, restrictions on access to content that involved queer and trans people from like what we're talking about book bans or academic restriction in that sense, talking about you know, even like in some states there have been banned you know, either actual passage of legislation or attempts to past legislation that restricts you know, the expression of drag right like, So there is a wider suite of legislative priorities that expand out from this topic. Although what I will say is it's interesting because I think legislatively in some states you've seen that, and also my experience on the ground talking to people is you know, they really grapple with like the sports thing and maybe gender firming healthcare they have questions about, but the other stuff isn't necessarily on their radar or they don't necessarily associate this the sports conversation with the conversation about transgender identity at all. It's mostly about to them, Oh, well, if you're a signed male at BURR, why would you be allowed to play girls sports? That doesn't make sense to me because culturally and to a certain degree scientifically, you know, there is an imbalance in terms of access and performance when it comes to you know, boys and men being typically bigger, faster, stronger than girls and women, Now what that means at a variety of levels of sport, and whether or not that should be applied to intramural and club level sport.

Like, all of those are.

Like, all of those are.

Questions, and that are policy questions that I think there's a real hunger to grapple with meaningfully from the American public. However, in tandem with that, there is a very aggressive legislative push to pass restrictive legislation and policy, and that's kind of where we've been for the last five years. That doesn't have really any kind of room for nuance and is very rigid and actually in the United States, the legislative efforts are more more restrictive than what we've seen from a global elite sport policy perspective, which I think is interesting as well.

Questions, and that are policy questions that I think there's a real hunger to grapple with meaningfully from the American public. However, in tandem with that, there is a very aggressive legislative push to pass restrictive legislation and policy, and that's kind of where we've been for the last five years. That doesn't have really any kind of room for nuance and is very rigid and actually in the United States, the legislative efforts are more more restrictive than what we've seen from a global elite sport policy perspective, which I think is interesting as well.

Yeah, let's talk about that.

Yeah, let's talk about that.

If we zoom out and look at the larger sports landscape, this legislation would be federal policy, which then would apply to all the publicly funded schools in the US. How does that compare to policy changes we've seen at other levels like the Olympics or the World Championships.

If we zoom out and look at the larger sports landscape, this legislation would be federal policy, which then would apply to all the publicly funded schools in the US. How does that compare to policy changes we've seen at other levels like the Olympics or the World Championships.

Yeah, so the Olympics in twenty twenty one made a change and said each international federation could come up with their own policy. They gave them guidelines for what those policies maybe should look like and things they should consider, and the international federations largely discarded those Frankly, I think that's fair to say, and enacted.

Yeah, so the Olympics in twenty twenty one made a change and said each international federation could come up with their own policy. They gave them guidelines for what those policies maybe should look like and things they should consider, and the international federations largely discarded those Frankly, I think that's fair to say, and enacted.

The policies that they wanted to enact.

The policies that they wanted to enact.

And so what we've seen is a number of restrictive policies like that is the environment.

And so what we've seen is a number of restrictive policies like that is the environment.

There has not been a policy update.

There has not been a policy update.

From a major federation that is more inclusive in the last four or five years, and that those policies like, for example, we use swimming which applied. They go out of their way to say this applies to elite swimming and World aquatics and World Aquatics events, and says that if you are a transgender woman you want to be eligible for women's category, you are not if you've gone through any part of male puberty. And so if you began a transition prior to a disost from driven puberty, theoretically you could be.

From a major federation that is more inclusive in the last four or five years, and that those policies like, for example, we use swimming which applied. They go out of their way to say this applies to elite swimming and World aquatics and World Aquatics events, and says that if you are a transgender woman you want to be eligible for women's category, you are not if you've gone through any part of male puberty. And so if you began a transition prior to a disost from driven puberty, theoretically you could be.

Eligible for women's category.

Eligible for women's category.

So it's a narrow path, but it's still a path that is not the case in any of the states that have passed legislation in the United States, and it's not the case with HR twenty eight that just passed earlier this week, and so I think that's interesting. It's a small gap, but it is a gap, and it's one that certainly proponents of restrictive legislation and policy in the United States are actively working to close.

So it's a narrow path, but it's still a path that is not the case in any of the states that have passed legislation in the United States, and it's not the case with HR twenty eight that just passed earlier this week, and so I think that's interesting. It's a small gap, but it is a gap, and it's one that certainly proponents of restrictive legislation and policy in the United States are actively working to close.

They would like to see global.

They would like to see global.

Sports policy mirror more what we have from a legislative perspective in the United States.

Sports policy mirror more what we have from a legislative perspective in the United States.

For sure, it's such a complicated topic.

For sure, it's such a complicated topic.

There is science, there is politics, there is identity there.

There is science, there is politics, there is identity there.

I mean, it's.

I mean, it's.

Something where we under stand now that gender insects are not binary, and yet we're trying to fit it into a binary mold, which is always going to be complicated. But I think what's lost, particularly in a bill like this, is the fact that it does apply the exact same to collegiate elite athletes as it does to children. And it's not even taking into consideration the power of inclusion and community and participation in teamwork and everything else. So I want to ask you this last thing. When we know how much is at stake for the transcommunity, not just in terms of what sports related things this might apply to, but when it comes to recent and suggested legislation, also it might affect basic human rights, medical care, things like that. It sometimes feels like the folks advocating for the transcommunity aren't willing to fully engage with the questions that folks have about fairness and safety, either because they don't want to come across as equivocating or not fighting hard enough for inclusion, maybe because they're unwilling to discuss these issues with folks who are operating in bad faith or fear mongering or not using science at all. They don't want to get in the ring with someone who they know is not going to at a fair fight.

Something where we under stand now that gender insects are not binary, and yet we're trying to fit it into a binary mold, which is always going to be complicated. But I think what's lost, particularly in a bill like this, is the fact that it does apply the exact same to collegiate elite athletes as it does to children. And it's not even taking into consideration the power of inclusion and community and participation in teamwork and everything else. So I want to ask you this last thing. When we know how much is at stake for the transcommunity, not just in terms of what sports related things this might apply to, but when it comes to recent and suggested legislation, also it might affect basic human rights, medical care, things like that. It sometimes feels like the folks advocating for the transcommunity aren't willing to fully engage with the questions that folks have about fairness and safety, either because they don't want to come across as equivocating or not fighting hard enough for inclusion, maybe because they're unwilling to discuss these issues with folks who are operating in bad faith or fear mongering or not using science at all. They don't want to get in the ring with someone who they know is not going to at a fair fight.

I understand all of that.

I understand all of that.

I struggle at times myself with trying to reconcile where I do think there might be genetic benefits to being born male at the highest highest levels, while also saying there is absolutely no part of me that thinks that youth should be restricted from competing and playing. Our desire to prioritize winning over humanity is so clear to me at the youth levels. How do we or should we try to push for more of an effort to have those conversations, to be more honest, even about the things we don't fully know or that are scientifically unclear to offset the efforts of the GOP who are so willing to push false narratives and so willing to use salacious, fear mongering tactics to try to force people to one side.

I struggle at times myself with trying to reconcile where I do think there might be genetic benefits to being born male at the highest highest levels, while also saying there is absolutely no part of me that thinks that youth should be restricted from competing and playing. Our desire to prioritize winning over humanity is so clear to me at the youth levels. How do we or should we try to push for more of an effort to have those conversations, to be more honest, even about the things we don't fully know or that are scientifically unclear to offset the efforts of the GOP who are so willing to push false narratives and so willing to use salacious, fear mongering tactics to try to force people to one side.

So one of the things I get asked a lot is like, what's missing from this conversation, right? And my answer to that almost always is, you know, listening, compassion, and empathy, And for me, those things are multi way streets.

So one of the things I get asked a lot is like, what's missing from this conversation, right? And my answer to that almost always is, you know, listening, compassion, and empathy, And for me, those things are multi way streets.

And so, you know, if you're somebody who.

And so, you know, if you're somebody who.

Supports transgender inclusion, I think it's really important to listen to those who do not, like what is it that they're saying?

Supports transgender inclusion, I think it's really important to listen to those who do not, like what is it that they're saying?

What are their experiences? Why do they feel that way?

What are their experiences? Why do they feel that way?

And you know, I think that's something that can be really hard to do because so much of this discussion and debate, if you want to frame it that way, is rooted in our ideas about gender, are conceptions of self, our own experiences, and our experiences with the incredibly emotional thing that is sports.

And you know, I think that's something that can be really hard to do because so much of this discussion and debate, if you want to frame it that way, is rooted in our ideas about gender, are conceptions of self, our own experiences, and our experiences with the incredibly emotional thing that is sports.

It can be I think.

It can be I think.

Really hard and challenging to hear those criticism and challenges to ideas that you may hold, as you know, an inclusion activist, that you know, are really core values. And I think for folks who are transgender, right, that is, you know, even further compounded because at times the challenges run folks who favor restrictive policy are to the very notion of you know, can transgender people even exist?

Really hard and challenging to hear those criticism and challenges to ideas that you may hold, as you know, an inclusion activist, that you know, are really core values. And I think for folks who are transgender, right, that is, you know, even further compounded because at times the challenges run folks who favor restrictive policy are to the very notion of you know, can transgender people even exist?

Right?

Right?

And so I think especially for folks who are not trans who are in support of inclusive policy, you know, it's important to kunderstand in that space if that's something that you believe in, you to have those harder conversations and in support of transgender people with whom you are allied.

And so I think especially for folks who are not trans who are in support of inclusive policy, you know, it's important to kunderstand in that space if that's something that you believe in, you to have those harder conversations and in support of transgender people with whom you are allied.

And I think the same is true for folks who are on the.

And I think the same is true for folks who are on the.

Fence, who you know, aren't sure, who have heard different ideas, or who are in favor of restrictive policy for a variety of reasons. I think it's incredibly important to hear the fears of trans people, to engage with the transgender people about their life experiences and who they are, and to consider not just the impacts of legislation on your own family or on you know, inclusive policy on you know, your daughters as often something that I hear, but also consider the effects of restrictive policy on young transgender people.

Fence, who you know, aren't sure, who have heard different ideas, or who are in favor of restrictive policy for a variety of reasons. I think it's incredibly important to hear the fears of trans people, to engage with the transgender people about their life experiences and who they are, and to consider not just the impacts of legislation on your own family or on you know, inclusive policy on you know, your daughters as often something that I hear, but also consider the effects of restrictive policy on young transgender people.

And that doesn't and I'm not saying that.

And that doesn't and I'm not saying that.

In an effort to get anybody to change their minds. I just think there's such a gap where folks are not talking, are not listening, and are not really hearing the perspectives of, you know, those who disagree with them. And that's where I have felt. I have felt that so acutely on this issue over time, as somebody who sits in the space as a journalist where it is my job to listen to people from a variety of perspectives, and I take that very seriously. But then who also has had like my appearance, politicized my own identity and politicized and it has experienced that, who's experienced an elevated level of scrutiny on this issue. I think that gives me a lot of empathy with you know, folks, you know within the trans community who are trying to play sports and then suddenly are in the middle of a firestorm.

In an effort to get anybody to change their minds. I just think there's such a gap where folks are not talking, are not listening, and are not really hearing the perspectives of, you know, those who disagree with them. And that's where I have felt. I have felt that so acutely on this issue over time, as somebody who sits in the space as a journalist where it is my job to listen to people from a variety of perspectives, and I take that very seriously. But then who also has had like my appearance, politicized my own identity and politicized and it has experienced that, who's experienced an elevated level of scrutiny on this issue. I think that gives me a lot of empathy with you know, folks, you know within the trans community who are trying to play sports and then suddenly are in the middle of a firestorm.

Right.

Right.

So, like, it's very COMPLI katid, it's very nuanced, and I think we would all do better if we meaningfully engaged, yeah, with those who with a different opinion than us.

So, like, it's very COMPLI katid, it's very nuanced, and I think we would all do better if we meaningfully engaged, yeah, with those who with a different opinion than us.

Yeah, And I think it's only made worse by the fact that so much of our communication is now done via the Internet and lobbing insults and facts or not facts back and forth, as opposed to traditional conversation where you are seeking to understand what the other person is saying in order to engage back and forth.

Yeah, And I think it's only made worse by the fact that so much of our communication is now done via the Internet and lobbing insults and facts or not facts back and forth, as opposed to traditional conversation where you are seeking to understand what the other person is saying in order to engage back and forth.

In the way we communicate now.

In the way we communicate now.

It really allows for some of the worst things to come out and for us to be unwilling to hear the other side and placing onto them opinions or beliefs that they might not even have based solely on their reticence to agree with something or their pursuit of inclusion or whatever it is. Katie, we always learn a ton from you. We know you're super busy in the response to all of this, so thanks so much for making time for it.

It really allows for some of the worst things to come out and for us to be unwilling to hear the other side and placing onto them opinions or beliefs that they might not even have based solely on their reticence to agree with something or their pursuit of inclusion or whatever it is. Katie, we always learn a ton from you. We know you're super busy in the response to all of this, so thanks so much for making time for it.

Oh thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Oh thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Thanks to Katie for taking the time we got to take another break. See on the other side. Welcome back, slices. We love that you're listening, but we want you to get in the game every day too. So here's our good gameplay of the day by Katie's book. It's called fair Play. How Sports Shape the Gender Debates. We'll link to it in our show notes, or you could pick it up from your local bookstore, and if you're like Alex while you're at the bookstore, you could move the display.

Thanks to Katie for taking the time we got to take another break. See on the other side. Welcome back, slices. We love that you're listening, but we want you to get in the game every day too. So here's our good gameplay of the day by Katie's book. It's called fair Play. How Sports Shape the Gender Debates. We'll link to it in our show notes, or you could pick it up from your local bookstore, and if you're like Alex while you're at the bookstore, you could move the display.

Around a little bit.

Around a little bit.

So, I don't know, maybe extra copies of Katie's book somehow make their way in front of Steven A. Smith's Oh and keep sending us picks of your Unrivaled team draft pages. It's so fun to see you participating and playing along, but also not fun to see that you all have better handwriting than me and Mish.

So, I don't know, maybe extra copies of Katie's book somehow make their way in front of Steven A. Smith's Oh and keep sending us picks of your Unrivaled team draft pages. It's so fun to see you participating and playing along, but also not fun to see that you all have better handwriting than me and Mish.

We got to work on that.

We got to work on that.

We love to hear from you.

We love to hear from you.

Hit us up on email, good game at wondermediaetwork dot com, or you can leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two four fifty seventy and you all know what's coming next. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. That's right, Just scroll down, find the stars, click, leave us a beautiful review, give.

Hit us up on email, good game at wondermediaetwork dot com, or you can leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two four fifty seventy and you all know what's coming next. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. That's right, Just scroll down, find the stars, click, leave us a beautiful review, give.

Us five stars.

Us five stars.

It's really easy watch learning that someone else also crunch the numbers to determine the Gayest Unrivaled club. Rating ten out of ten Gaydar Alignment points. Review shout out to friend of the show Frankie de Lacreta, who also did the math and found out that at least seventeen of the thirty six players competing in Unrivaled are out as queer. Frankie's numbers were actually a little higher than Alex's, with the Laces Basketball Club coming in at number one with five out of six players. We love to see it, and, as Frankie writes, quote, this ratio means that gay people are obligated to watch Unrivaled. Sorry, I don't make the rules end quote. We'll link to Frankie's full story in the show notes. Now it's your turn, rate and review. Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good Game, Katie, Good Game, Naomio osaka, hw House Republicans. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive users are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch, and Lindsay Crodowell. Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm your host, Sarah Spain