Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, where we discussed the top political headlines with some of today's best minds. And President Trump has frozen one hundred and seventy five million dollars of the University of Pennsylvania's funding over an excuse that he's using, which is trans women. We have such a great show for you today, ye Al Franken shows. Al Franken discusses changing leadership in the Senate and what it would mean. Then we'll talk to et Injermentum newsletter editor Josh Cohen about the future Democrats want.

Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, where we discussed the top political headlines with some of today's best minds. And President Trump has frozen one hundred and seventy five million dollars of the University of Pennsylvania's funding over an excuse that he's using, which is trans women. We have such a great show for you today, ye Al Franken shows. Al Franken discusses changing leadership in the Senate and what it would mean. Then we'll talk to et Injermentum newsletter editor Josh Cohen about the future Democrats want.

But first the news, Mollie.

But first the news, Mollie.

The thing that makes me be able to go to sleep without taking a truckload of melatonin each night is that Donald Trump keeps suffering multiple legal blows every single day.

The thing that makes me be able to go to sleep without taking a truckload of melatonin each night is that Donald Trump keeps suffering multiple legal blows every single day.

Yeah, this is Trump one point zero being a lot like Trump two point zero being a lot like Trump one point zero, a lot of the stuff that Trump wants to do. And again, I'm going to remind all of you that in July, Jesse and I did this YouTube series. It makes us look like we're psychics. We just read this stupid website that the Heritage Foundation stupidly published.

Yeah, this is Trump one point zero being a lot like Trump two point zero being a lot like Trump one point zero, a lot of the stuff that Trump wants to do. And again, I'm going to remind all of you that in July, Jesse and I did this YouTube series. It makes us look like we're psychics. We just read this stupid website that the Heritage Foundation stupidly published.

Read a pdf that had command to f a lot of times to see how many different ways they said the same fucking thing over and over again.

Read a pdf that had command to f a lot of times to see how many different ways they said the same fucking thing over and over again.

Exactly.

Exactly.

It was not gone with the wind, it was not check off, it was not the brothers caramotts off. It was in fact the Heritage Foundations mandate for leadership.

It was not gone with the wind, it was not check off, it was not the brothers caramotts off. It was in fact the Heritage Foundations mandate for leadership.

But some would say there was some power broker going on it.

But some would say there was some power broker going on it.

There was some power broker in going and it was a lot of repetition and a lot of chapters written by members of Trump's first administration who, surprised, surprise, went back into his second administration. Who could have seen this coming? How about everyone who was paying attention. So one of the things that we both I think, when we were talking about this in July and so sbsequently in the healthscape that is our lives, we noticed that a lot of this stuff seemed really illegal, right, like you know, dissolving agencies like you know, ending the Department of Education, stuff like that. And so in fact it turns out that all of the courts also think these illegal things are illegal, which is now created an atmosphere where MAGA now hates all the federal judges. And so the good news is that Trump just keeps losing in court like he did the first time. The bad news is that these federal judges are basically like the rest of us now being harassed by the Maga wing of the Mega Party, which uses X as a sort of four Chan to get together and organize, utilize, and harass the rest of us.

There was some power broker in going and it was a lot of repetition and a lot of chapters written by members of Trump's first administration who, surprised, surprise, went back into his second administration. Who could have seen this coming? How about everyone who was paying attention. So one of the things that we both I think, when we were talking about this in July and so sbsequently in the healthscape that is our lives, we noticed that a lot of this stuff seemed really illegal, right, like you know, dissolving agencies like you know, ending the Department of Education, stuff like that. And so in fact it turns out that all of the courts also think these illegal things are illegal, which is now created an atmosphere where MAGA now hates all the federal judges. And so the good news is that Trump just keeps losing in court like he did the first time. The bad news is that these federal judges are basically like the rest of us now being harassed by the Maga wing of the Mega Party, which uses X as a sort of four Chan to get together and organize, utilize, and harass the rest of us.

I do like this four Chan metaphor for what X is for them. It's good.

I do like this four Chan metaphor for what X is for them. It's good.

Yeah, I mean, it's basically, you know, it's a it's a message board for people who you know, use straight armed salutes to invoke bad guys from the Second World War who I have no idea.

Yeah, I mean, it's basically, you know, it's a it's a message board for people who you know, use straight armed salutes to invoke bad guys from the Second World War who I have no idea.

So one of the worst things I've done in my brain is I've listened to like episodes of Joe Rogan and Steve Bennon's War Room, where I've heard these people who love to think their immune systems are just so awesome talking about how if we could just figure out the antibodies from the people who don't catch things, that's where we're really going to find the good stuff. And it's like some bad movie plot that we're going to solve bird flu with this, And that is exactly what RFK Junior is telling our government to do.

So one of the worst things I've done in my brain is I've listened to like episodes of Joe Rogan and Steve Bennon's War Room, where I've heard these people who love to think their immune systems are just so awesome talking about how if we could just figure out the antibodies from the people who don't catch things, that's where we're really going to find the good stuff. And it's like some bad movie plot that we're going to solve bird flu with this, And that is exactly what RFK Junior is telling our government to do.

Wait what Wait?

Wait what Wait?

First, wait what, Oh, okay, RFK juniors unveils into drubbing planned to combat bird flu. So let's just talk about this for a minute. Trump is at war with the Cords. Meanwhile, MAGA is at war with nature, basically nature and science.

First, wait what, Oh, okay, RFK juniors unveils into drubbing planned to combat bird flu. So let's just talk about this for a minute. Trump is at war with the Cords. Meanwhile, MAGA is at war with nature, basically nature and science.

This is like a larger theme.

This is like a larger theme.

We're seeing that the truth has gotten so stretched out and sort of impaled that it is no longer the truth. Right, It's a sort of mimiogram of the truth. And one of the things we see here is like Trump has these statements. I'm going to go back to the story we were just talking about for a minute because they think that it can shed light on the story we're talking about right now. So Trump is on Truth's Social complaining about these judges, and he says, if a president doesn't have the right to throw murderers and other criminals out of our country because a radical left lunatic judge wants to assume the role of president, then our country is in very big trouble and doesn't fail. Okay, So right, this is this way of perverting the truth. Right. The truth is this judge is just not a radical left lunatic, and he's saying, you just have to do due process before you kick people out of the country, and make sure that you're kicking out the right people, sending them to a country that perhaps they've been to before. This is exactly the same kind of thing with the RFK stuff, Right, It's this idea that you're not seeing the world in a normal way, you're seeing the world in this kind of paranoid way. And in fact, the thing that makes me think of is the paranoid style, right, Richard Hofsteinter, this idea the paranoid style of American politics. Right, This is this idea that the sort of world of conservative thinkers looks at things in a way that is sort of the opposite of what's really happening.

We're seeing that the truth has gotten so stretched out and sort of impaled that it is no longer the truth. Right, It's a sort of mimiogram of the truth. And one of the things we see here is like Trump has these statements. I'm going to go back to the story we were just talking about for a minute because they think that it can shed light on the story we're talking about right now. So Trump is on Truth's Social complaining about these judges, and he says, if a president doesn't have the right to throw murderers and other criminals out of our country because a radical left lunatic judge wants to assume the role of president, then our country is in very big trouble and doesn't fail. Okay, So right, this is this way of perverting the truth. Right. The truth is this judge is just not a radical left lunatic, and he's saying, you just have to do due process before you kick people out of the country, and make sure that you're kicking out the right people, sending them to a country that perhaps they've been to before. This is exactly the same kind of thing with the RFK stuff, Right, It's this idea that you're not seeing the world in a normal way, you're seeing the world in this kind of paranoid way. And in fact, the thing that makes me think of is the paranoid style, right, Richard Hofsteinter, this idea the paranoid style of American politics. Right, This is this idea that the sort of world of conservative thinkers looks at things in a way that is sort of the opposite of what's really happening.

And this is like the sort of legacy of Nixon and Agnew. Yeah, I was thinking about pat Buchanon.

And this is like the sort of legacy of Nixon and Agnew. Yeah, I was thinking about pat Buchanon.

See, I only say that the way John McLaughlin used to say it did and yell at going.

See, I only say that the way John McLaughlin used to say it did and yell at going.

But you can, right.

But you can, right.

So Pap Buchanan is another one, right, where there's sort of there's a sense in which everything that's real is not really real and things that are wrong or maybe right. So here's the deal. RFK Junior has taken a step further. He is doing these things when it comes to public health. And I think, honestly, this is where we see the post COVID paranoid style of post COVID politics in a way that is the most destructive, right, because Trump's war on the judiciary is destructive. But it's a little bit different, right, We've sort of seen it before. We know what it is. It's much more on the surface, ourf case war against science and technology, and the sort of hearkening back to the early earlier times in American life when we didn't have vaccines is actually more insidious.

So Pap Buchanan is another one, right, where there's sort of there's a sense in which everything that's real is not really real and things that are wrong or maybe right. So here's the deal. RFK Junior has taken a step further. He is doing these things when it comes to public health. And I think, honestly, this is where we see the post COVID paranoid style of post COVID politics in a way that is the most destructive, right, because Trump's war on the judiciary is destructive. But it's a little bit different, right, We've sort of seen it before. We know what it is. It's much more on the surface, ourf case war against science and technology, and the sort of hearkening back to the early earlier times in American life when we didn't have vaccines is actually more insidious.

So here's what's happening.

So here's what's happening.

He has decided that the bird flu should be allowed to spread unchecked to identified birds that could be immune. And I think this is important because what he is saying here is that he's just not going to try And this is what they did with COVID too, Right with COVID, they said, Now, why this is going to be bad is because we are going to all get bird flu and die. Maybe we won't all get bird flu and die, but a a lot of birds are going to die.

He has decided that the bird flu should be allowed to spread unchecked to identified birds that could be immune. And I think this is important because what he is saying here is that he's just not going to try And this is what they did with COVID too, Right with COVID, they said, Now, why this is going to be bad is because we are going to all get bird flu and die. Maybe we won't all get bird flu and die, but a a lot of birds are going to die.

B a lot of people are going to get.

B a lot of people are going to get.

Sick, and crucial to a lot of US Americans, a lot of pets are going to die, right, A lot.

Sick, and crucial to a lot of US Americans, a lot of pets are going to die, right, A lot.

Of pets are going to die. It's just terrible.

Of pets are going to die. It's just terrible.

Kennedy said in a reason Fox News interview that farmers should consider maybe the possibility of letting it run through their flock so they can identify the birds. They'll identify them all right, because they'll be dead and preserve the birds that are immune to it, an idea experts say would be dangerous and hurt the poultry industry.

Kennedy said in a reason Fox News interview that farmers should consider maybe the possibility of letting it run through their flock so they can identify the birds. They'll identify them all right, because they'll be dead and preserve the birds that are immune to it, an idea experts say would be dangerous and hurt the poultry industry.

So, Mali, I know you sometimes tell people you're nepo oldie online, but I got news for you that's getting put into policy now. Because the DOJ is asserting Trump hypothetically as the power to purge all female agency heads or those over forty. That's two strikes there. Miss.

So, Mali, I know you sometimes tell people you're nepo oldie online, but I got news for you that's getting put into policy now. Because the DOJ is asserting Trump hypothetically as the power to purge all female agency heads or those over forty. That's two strikes there. Miss.

Here's the thing.

Here's the thing.

Just because a lot of conservative men don't like being married to women over forty doesn't mean they don't have a use on this planet. I'm sorry to tell you that's not how any of this works. And look, you'll remember that women over a college educated women did not over Trump, right, because we read the Trump Department of Justice asserted in court on Tuesday that under its theories, could the president decide he was not going to a point or allowed or remain in office any female heads of agencies or heads over forty years old. Judge Karen Henderson, a wild leftist Reagan appointee on the DC Circuit of Appeals, asked the Deputy Assistant Attorney General, and you know what he said?

Just because a lot of conservative men don't like being married to women over forty doesn't mean they don't have a use on this planet. I'm sorry to tell you that's not how any of this works. And look, you'll remember that women over a college educated women did not over Trump, right, because we read the Trump Department of Justice asserted in court on Tuesday that under its theories, could the president decide he was not going to a point or allowed or remain in office any female heads of agencies or heads over forty years old. Judge Karen Henderson, a wild leftist Reagan appointee on the DC Circuit of Appeals, asked the Deputy Assistant Attorney General, and you know what he said?

He said, I.

He said, I.

Think that would be within the president's constitutional authority under the removal of power, because honestly, who wants to be married to someone over forty.

Think that would be within the president's constitutional authority under the removal of power, because honestly, who wants to be married to someone over forty.

Not I My wife turns it in August and putting her on notice.

Not I My wife turns it in August and putting her on notice.

Yeah, that's right, baby, we are, by the way, kidding, we're both mid to late forties.

Yeah, that's right, baby, we are, by the way, kidding, we're both mid to late forties.

Yes, Somali. Mister Trump told me and the American people that day one he's going to putin in his place, and the war in Ukraine, He's going to make peace in the Middle East.

Yes, Somali. Mister Trump told me and the American people that day one he's going to putin in his place, and the war in Ukraine, He's going to make peace in the Middle East.

Yeah, good work.

Yeah, good work.

Then there was these recent ceasefires, and I have news for you. They're done. They're fucking done.

Then there was these recent ceasefires, and I have news for you. They're done. They're fucking done.

I am shocked. I am shocked to hear that.

I am shocked. I am shocked to hear that.

I think from Trump one point zero, where he said who knew healthcare could be so complicated? I feel like we could put this on every thing that Trump falls into. Who knew that any of this could be so complicated. It's complicated and Donald Trump learning how to do government one minute at a time.

I think from Trump one point zero, where he said who knew healthcare could be so complicated? I feel like we could put this on every thing that Trump falls into. Who knew that any of this could be so complicated. It's complicated and Donald Trump learning how to do government one minute at a time.

Lucky us.

Lucky us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Al Franken is a former senator and the host of the Al Frankin show.

Al Franken is a former senator and the host of the Al Frankin show.

Oh and Molly. He appears in the new Netflix TV series The Residence, which is out now.

Oh and Molly. He appears in the new Netflix TV series The Residence, which is out now.

Welcome Back, Too Fast Politics, Al Franken.

Welcome Back, Too Fast Politics, Al Franken.

Thank you, great to be back. Molly. How you doing now?

Thank you, great to be back. Molly. How you doing now?

You're actor Alfred versus.

You're actor Alfred versus.

I'm actor Al Franklin again. I've done it before, but there's been a hiatus from my acting career. But I'm very excited about this show. I'm in The Residence all right to pitch the show. It's a murder mystery. It takes place basically. The biggest character in it is the White House Residence, not the West wing, but the East wing, and there's a murder. The chief usher is the murderer. So this involves all the staff and all the people who were at this big dinner for the Australian Prime Minister. It's a great show. When I got the script, I really loved it, but I didn't know how it's going to be great it's going to be but it was and it is so I was very excited when I saw and they sent me the episodes and they're great, great cast.

I'm actor Al Franklin again. I've done it before, but there's been a hiatus from my acting career. But I'm very excited about this show. I'm in The Residence all right to pitch the show. It's a murder mystery. It takes place basically. The biggest character in it is the White House Residence, not the West wing, but the East wing, and there's a murder. The chief usher is the murderer. So this involves all the staff and all the people who were at this big dinner for the Australian Prime Minister. It's a great show. When I got the script, I really loved it, but I didn't know how it's going to be great it's going to be but it was and it is so I was very excited when I saw and they sent me the episodes and they're great, great cast.

Who else is in it with you?

Who else is in it with you?

Well, Uzzo Aduba, who people would know from Orange is the New Black. She's the only person I know that is one an Emmy in acting for both a comedy and a drama in the same show.

Well, Uzzo Aduba, who people would know from Orange is the New Black. She's the only person I know that is one an Emmy in acting for both a comedy and a drama in the same show.

Oh wow.

Oh wow.

Yeah. So each one year they submitted it as a comedy, one year they submitted as a drama, and when it got more dramatic, and she won in both categories two different years. So she has that distinction. She plays the detective who solves this thing after in the and you solve it in the eighth episode she does.

Yeah. So each one year they submitted it as a comedy, one year they submitted as a drama, and when it got more dramatic, and she won in both categories two different years. So she has that distinction. She plays the detective who solves this thing after in the and you solve it in the eighth episode she does.

That is very cool.

That is very cool.

Yeah, so I feel like we have our distractions from watching Donald Trump dismantle the federal government. Mine is my book is coming out in June. Yours is this very cool show, which Jesse and are both going to watch. I think of this, like, you have been a United States senator, so you really do care about the federal government and like what is happening right now. I would love to just talk through a little bit about what you think is happening right now to Republican senators because there are still a bunch that are there that you've known, and they have survived one Trump administration, right and now they are into their next and I just am wondering what you think it's like for like a John Soon.

Yeah, so I feel like we have our distractions from watching Donald Trump dismantle the federal government. Mine is my book is coming out in June. Yours is this very cool show, which Jesse and are both going to watch. I think of this, like, you have been a United States senator, so you really do care about the federal government and like what is happening right now. I would love to just talk through a little bit about what you think is happening right now to Republican senators because there are still a bunch that are there that you've known, and they have survived one Trump administration, right and now they are into their next and I just am wondering what you think it's like for like a John Soon.

I don't think they are having fun either.

I don't think they are having fun either.

Oh God, no, no, I don't think anybody's having fun there right now, because the Republicans have all caved except for Markowski and Collins and McConnell.

Oh God, no, no, I don't think anybody's having fun there right now, because the Republicans have all caved except for Markowski and Collins and McConnell.

Bafflingly, Well, it's not baffling, but you know what I mean.

Bafflingly, Well, it's not baffling, but you know what I mean.

It's not baffling at all. McConnell, I don't know it was. But how many did he vote?

It's not baffling at all. McConnell, I don't know it was. But how many did he vote?

Know on three four?

Know on three four?

I think at least three. But I mean, he's not running for reelection, so everybody else is just scared. You know. We have Musk saying he's going to spend at least one hundred million on the primary of these guys if they defy him, and they all seem to be scared of him. They all are scared of him, There's no doubt about it. So that's why they're caving every day.

I think at least three. But I mean, he's not running for reelection, so everybody else is just scared. You know. We have Musk saying he's going to spend at least one hundred million on the primary of these guys if they defy him, and they all seem to be scared of him. They all are scared of him, There's no doubt about it. So that's why they're caving every day.

Elon has done a ton of stuff over the first six weeks, and now we're starting to see the courts are just basically like, no, you can't do any of that. So you can't do usai D, you can't do this, you can't fire. I mean, God bless the democratic ags. Jesse and I interviewed one in July who was like, basically said, we don't think she's going to win, and we have spent the last six months sitting down and figuring out all the lawsuits we're going to have to file.

Elon has done a ton of stuff over the first six weeks, and now we're starting to see the courts are just basically like, no, you can't do any of that. So you can't do usai D, you can't do this, you can't fire. I mean, God bless the democratic ags. Jesse and I interviewed one in July who was like, basically said, we don't think she's going to win, and we have spent the last six months sitting down and figuring out all the lawsuits we're going to have to file.

That was in July, Yeah, July.

That was in July, Yeah, July.

And we were both like, no, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

And we were both like, no, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

After we end up recording, I go and she's going to win and he was.

After we end up recording, I go and she's going to win and he was.

Like, no, she's not gonna win. He's like, but here are the lawsuits we're going to file. But they filed all these lawsuits.

Like, no, she's not gonna win. He's like, but here are the lawsuits we're going to file. But they filed all these lawsuits.

Who do you blame that she didn't win? I know who I blame.

Who do you blame that she didn't win? I know who I blame.

So this age was Okay, go ahead, you know it's not his fault. But I'm just saying, I just want to I want to tell you what he told us because I think.

So this age was Okay, go ahead, you know it's not his fault. But I'm just saying, I just want to I want to tell you what he told us because I think.

No, it's not his fault at all. That's not what I'm no.

No, it's not his fault at all. That's not what I'm no.

I know, but I mean, I just want to tell you what he told us because I think think it is interesting, and it got me thinking about the election in a certain way. He said, I am in He's in a blue state, in a but very Latino state, and he said, they're just not going to vote for her. He said, the Latino men are not going to vote for her. And it was like in his mind, he said, it just doesn't matter. He said, it's just not happening. I think Latino men, I think white, non college educated women.

I know, but I mean, I just want to tell you what he told us because I think think it is interesting, and it got me thinking about the election in a certain way. He said, I am in He's in a blue state, in a but very Latino state, and he said, they're just not going to vote for her. He said, the Latino men are not going to vote for her. And it was like in his mind, he said, it just doesn't matter. He said, it's just not happening. I think Latino men, I think white, non college educated women.

I don't think she could have broken through there.

I don't think she could have broken through there.

Well, I think it because it started so late and Trump took the right tack and you know, and went after both her and Biden. I was scared throughout, but I thought it was going to be fifty to fifty on election night, and it wasn't. It was fifty forty nine.

Well, I think it because it started so late and Trump took the right tack and you know, and went after both her and Biden. I was scared throughout, but I thought it was going to be fifty to fifty on election night, and it wasn't. It was fifty forty nine.

Who do you blame?

Who do you blame?

This is the most spiritual thing you can do is re litigate the twenty twenty four cycle.

This is the most spiritual thing you can do is re litigate the twenty twenty four cycle.

I can't stop so well.

I can't stop so well.

I blame Biden for not dropping out much sooner, for not honoring what he said going into the I thought he had a great presidency in many ways, many pomplishments, but he had to know that he wasn't up to snuff. And of course that debate was a harrowing thing to watch. Yeah, and then to not pull out then was ridiculous as well. But that's relitigating stuff that everyone relitigates in their mind every day as they go to sleep.

I blame Biden for not dropping out much sooner, for not honoring what he said going into the I thought he had a great presidency in many ways, many pomplishments, but he had to know that he wasn't up to snuff. And of course that debate was a harrowing thing to watch. Yeah, and then to not pull out then was ridiculous as well. But that's relitigating stuff that everyone relitigates in their mind every day as they go to sleep.

I don't think we should continue on but on this depressing dijectory. But since we're just going to do it one more minute, not it the cardinal sin as I see it is running from populism whatever. That looks like Democrats had a much more populist policy program, right, I mean, tax cuts for rich people is not populism.

I don't think we should continue on but on this depressing dijectory. But since we're just going to do it one more minute, not it the cardinal sin as I see it is running from populism whatever. That looks like Democrats had a much more populist policy program, right, I mean, tax cuts for rich people is not populism.

Well, how about these these medicaid cuts.

Well, how about these these medicaid cuts.

Eight hundred and eighty billion over ten years.

Eight hundred and eighty billion over ten years.

Yeah, and that wait, wait till people on medicaid see that realize that's happening to them.

Yeah, and that wait, wait till people on medicaid see that realize that's happening to them.

Let's talk about that.

Let's talk about that.

Because there's sort of a pause between Trump doing crazy stuff and like the average American feeling it.

Because there's sort of a pause between Trump doing crazy stuff and like the average American feeling it.

How long do you think that is?

How long do you think that is?

I don't know. I don't know when this kicks in, but when it kicks in that you know. One of the things is like Medicaid expansion, which was under the Affordable Care Act, and one of the great things in the Affordable Care Act. You look at how many red states didn't sign up for that, but then through voters insisting on it in all these different red states, it was adopted in a you know, on by a ballot initiative, and it's the best thing happens to rural hospitals. And the states that haven't done it, those red states that are in basically the Confederacy and Wisconsin, I guess those states have lost rural hospitals. It's a disaster for them. And so but now we're going to have people who are on straight medicaid, not through Medicaid expansion, and they're going to be really hurting. Yeah, they're going to notice that, and hopefully that will work in the midterm, but that's a long way away. And in the meantime, this horrible stuff has happened.

I don't know. I don't know when this kicks in, but when it kicks in that you know. One of the things is like Medicaid expansion, which was under the Affordable Care Act, and one of the great things in the Affordable Care Act. You look at how many red states didn't sign up for that, but then through voters insisting on it in all these different red states, it was adopted in a you know, on by a ballot initiative, and it's the best thing happens to rural hospitals. And the states that haven't done it, those red states that are in basically the Confederacy and Wisconsin, I guess those states have lost rural hospitals. It's a disaster for them. And so but now we're going to have people who are on straight medicaid, not through Medicaid expansion, and they're going to be really hurting. Yeah, they're going to notice that, and hopefully that will work in the midterm, but that's a long way away. And in the meantime, this horrible stuff has happened.

It's like the accelerationist case for Trumpism, right, like that you want people to notice it because last time Democrats were in a way too effective at preventing some of the effects of Trumpism, right, Like, he's not going to cut stuff because he wasn't able to last time. Was a refrain I heard all the time.

It's like the accelerationist case for Trumpism, right, like that you want people to notice it because last time Democrats were in a way too effective at preventing some of the effects of Trumpism, right, Like, he's not going to cut stuff because he wasn't able to last time. Was a refrain I heard all the time.

I guess, so, you know, I was there during part of that, and that part of it. He had the whole. He had the whole thing. First couple of years he had the House, the Senate, and the White House. Now he does and it's a whole different story here.

I guess, so, you know, I was there during part of that, and that part of it. He had the whole. He had the whole thing. First couple of years he had the House, the Senate, and the White House. Now he does and it's a whole different story here.

Yeah, I'm curious because they passed the CR.

Yeah, I'm curious because they passed the CR.

It is not great.

It is not great.

Either way was bad.

Either way was bad.

Now either way was bad. Now here's my question for you.

Now either way was bad. Now here's my question for you.

You and I both know, and I think a lot of people that a lot of the conversations I've had, like behind the scenes, have been with staffers or members who have said things like, you know, it was impossible situation right, Like I know for a fact they told Schumer's office that RUSSA could not wait for a shutdown, that he planned to make every single hr person in all the federal agencies deemed essential workers and then just keep going, right, just spend those weeks of no of government shutdown just firing everyone he could without the purview of the federal government.

You and I both know, and I think a lot of people that a lot of the conversations I've had, like behind the scenes, have been with staffers or members who have said things like, you know, it was impossible situation right, Like I know for a fact they told Schumer's office that RUSSA could not wait for a shutdown, that he planned to make every single hr person in all the federal agencies deemed essential workers and then just keep going, right, just spend those weeks of no of government shutdown just firing everyone he could without the purview of the federal government.

That sounds about right, and that's why Schumer did what he did. But the counter to that is that how long would that have lasted? The air traffic controllers are necessary, and I guess you end up having Trump say what's necessary and what's not necessary. Right.

That sounds about right, and that's why Schumer did what he did. But the counter to that is that how long would that have lasted? The air traffic controllers are necessary, and I guess you end up having Trump say what's necessary and what's not necessary. Right.

Besides that is the counter that is would Mitch McConnell have been like, Oh, okay.

Besides that is the counter that is would Mitch McConnell have been like, Oh, okay.

I guess he would have. I don't know, But so what so the government shuts down, right, that gives Trump all the power to decide what's essential and what's not essential. And Mitch is just one of the three that I mentioned. They all voted yes on it, all the Republicans, right, I think it was every one of them, And so I don't know what McConnell would have done, but I don't think it would have done anything different.

I guess he would have. I don't know, But so what so the government shuts down, right, that gives Trump all the power to decide what's essential and what's not essential. And Mitch is just one of the three that I mentioned. They all voted yes on it, all the Republicans, right, I think it was every one of them, And so I don't know what McConnell would have done, but I don't think it would have done anything different.

Right if Mitch had been in leadership at the time.

Right if Mitch had been in leadership at the time.

Yeah, well, yeah, that's what I mean. If we're doing a lot of what ifs today, the.

Yeah, well, yeah, that's what I mean. If we're doing a lot of what ifs today, the.

Question is could you have gotten anything out of Trump world if you have no leverage?

Question is could you have gotten anything out of Trump world if you have no leverage?

I mean, I think that's the real question.

I mean, I think that's the real question.

People are mad because they feel that Chuck Schumer did not get enough from Trump World.

People are mad because they feel that Chuck Schumer did not get enough from Trump World.

They got nothing. Right, They wrote that bill without any any concessions at all. When he said let's vote you know, yes on this. It was a terrible choice between the worst of both worlds. I mean, it was terrible.

They got nothing. Right, They wrote that bill without any any concessions at all. When he said let's vote you know, yes on this. It was a terrible choice between the worst of both worlds. I mean, it was terrible.

Yeah, So do you think that?

Yeah, So do you think that?

So A lot of people are saying now that tchumor should not be in leadership.

So A lot of people are saying now that tchumor should not be in leadership.

What do you think about that?

What do you think about that?

Well, I could see them trying to make a change. It just be who would challenge and who would wants that job?

Well, I could see them trying to make a change. It just be who would challenge and who would wants that job?

Who do you think want that job?

Who do you think want that job?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I I see, you know, Chris Murphy being out there very loudly, but I think that he probably thinking about the White House as opposed to being leadership of the you know, of a minority right now, and it's it's a kind of a thankless job. So yeah, I don't know. It's not going to be Durbin or them. They would want someone young, right, I.

I I see, you know, Chris Murphy being out there very loudly, but I think that he probably thinking about the White House as opposed to being leadership of the you know, of a minority right now, and it's it's a kind of a thankless job. So yeah, I don't know. It's not going to be Durbin or them. They would want someone young, right, I.

Mean, I think Durbin may not run again.

Mean, I think Durbin may not run again.

As from what I understand, I think we really have a question of like what leadership should look like. For example, Nancy Pelosi, people were mad at her because she was older, but she never brought things up to the floor that didn't.

As from what I understand, I think we really have a question of like what leadership should look like. For example, Nancy Pelosi, people were mad at her because she was older, but she never brought things up to the floor that didn't.

Pass right, right, right, she was brilliant.

Pass right, right, right, she was brilliant.

Right.

Right.

We saw how good she was at that when we saw Mike Johnson get in there, because Mike jun then it's actually quite a hard job.

We saw how good she was at that when we saw Mike Johnson get in there, because Mike jun then it's actually quite a hard job.

So she is a really good leader.

So she is a really good leader.

Now does she reflect the entirety of the Democratic Party? Absolutely not, But doesn't necessarily.

Now does she reflect the entirety of the Democratic Party? Absolutely not, But doesn't necessarily.

Matter, and no one does, right.

Matter, and no one does, right.

And it's a big tent. So the question I think is, first of all, do you want a leader who who is a spokesman? Can those things be different?

And it's a big tent. So the question I think is, first of all, do you want a leader who who is a spokesman? Can those things be different?

Right?

Right?

Because usually you kind of have a candidate, a presidential candidate, and then you have a member of the party who is in leadership, and those two things don't necessarily need to be the same.

Because usually you kind of have a candidate, a presidential candidate, and then you have a member of the party who is in leadership, and those two things don't necessarily need to be the same.

Oh, not at all. You know Harry Reid. I remember always people saying why is Harry Reid the leader? And I said, for a really good reason. But you know, he wasn't a popular national figure, but he was a great leader. Nancy Pelosi never Speaker of the House, doesn't usually run for president. Sometimes you have, but senators do. But I can't think of a majority leader or minority leader except for Bob Dole who ran for president.

Oh, not at all. You know Harry Reid. I remember always people saying why is Harry Reid the leader? And I said, for a really good reason. But you know, he wasn't a popular national figure, but he was a great leader. Nancy Pelosi never Speaker of the House, doesn't usually run for president. Sometimes you have, but senators do. But I can't think of a majority leader or minority leader except for Bob Dole who ran for president.

Can you no? And it did not go well for Bob Dole, I think more importantly.

Can you no? And it did not go well for Bob Dole, I think more importantly.

Well, he did lose, and he lost by quite a bit. That was that Clinton midterm. And it's not a road to the White House certainly, And I don't know who would want this job right now. I haven't heard any rumblings of that, have you.

Well, he did lose, and he lost by quite a bit. That was that Clinton midterm. And it's not a road to the White House certainly, And I don't know who would want this job right now. I haven't heard any rumblings of that, have you.

So Punchbowld today had some thing about Brian Shots Punchball, which I listen to and read, but is much much better sourced.

So Punchbowld today had some thing about Brian Shots Punchball, which I listen to and read, but is much much better sourced.

On the right than the left. When you read it, you see that.

On the right than the left. When you read it, you see that.

And that's not true for all of them, but they had sort of Brian Shots his wants at Durbin's job, but maybe he wants leadership.

And that's not true for all of them, but they had sort of Brian Shots his wants at Durbin's job, but maybe he wants leadership.

Durban is the whip right.

Durban is the whip right.

Is the whip right, and he's also the chair of Judiciary. I mean, he's super important.

Is the whip right, and he's also the chair of Judiciary. I mean, he's super important.

Well, Shots doesn't want that.

Well, Shots doesn't want that.

And the other thing is that if you're leader in the Senate, you need to know all of those people, right, I mean, the job is to be able to talk to everyone and to form consensus, whatever that looks like in a Trump Senate. So I would think you don't necessarily want the youngest person. You actually want people who have you know, Chuck Shots.

And the other thing is that if you're leader in the Senate, you need to know all of those people, right, I mean, the job is to be able to talk to everyone and to form consensus, whatever that looks like in a Trump Senate. So I would think you don't necessarily want the youngest person. You actually want people who have you know, Chuck Shots.

Has been there a pretty long time now, I would say, yeah.

Has been there a pretty long time now, I would say, yeah.

No, he has.

No, he has.

I mean I think he'd be good, though, Like, what you need if you have someone taking on humor, I'm not sure you have that is someone who is ensconsed enough to be like a Shot, but brave enough to go against one of your party's biggest leaders, right.

I mean I think he'd be good, though, Like, what you need if you have someone taking on humor, I'm not sure you have that is someone who is ensconsed enough to be like a Shot, but brave enough to go against one of your party's biggest leaders, right.

And I just don't see it happening. I mean, I think of Sheldon white House or someone like that as that kind of person, But I don't think Sheldon wants that kind of job.

And I just don't see it happening. I mean, I think of Sheldon white House or someone like that as that kind of person, But I don't think Sheldon wants that kind of job.

Right, And that I think is the thing that the more vocal part of the party doesn't totally understand, is that this is not happening in a vacuum. This is happening in an institution where people do six year terms.

Right, And that I think is the thing that the more vocal part of the party doesn't totally understand, is that this is not happening in a vacuum. This is happening in an institution where people do six year terms.

Yeah, and who are very comfortable in those terms. And I just don't see someone challenging Schumer, that's all.

Yeah, and who are very comfortable in those terms. And I just don't see someone challenging Schumer, that's all.

And Schumer is now has all these protesters, he had to cancel his book tour, he had this, and that I mean, you.

And Schumer is now has all these protesters, he had to cancel his book tour, he had this, and that I mean, you.

Know, not, it's a shame on the book tour. What's it is about being Jewish?

Know, not, it's a shame on the book tour. What's it is about being Jewish?

It's a book about anti Semitism. So, okay, we're both Jewish. You're Jewish, we're Jewish.

It's a book about anti Semitism. So, okay, we're both Jewish. You're Jewish, we're Jewish.

We're both too right, Yeah, right, congratulations to us.

We're both too right, Yeah, right, congratulations to us.

Are you interested in the book by Chuck Schumer on any Semitism?

Are you interested in the book by Chuck Schumer on any Semitism?

You're so mean? Why do you ask me such? Hi? Oh look, we're out of time. I'll Reagan. I hope you'll come back.

You're so mean? Why do you ask me such? Hi? Oh look, we're out of time. I'll Reagan. I hope you'll come back.

Oh I will, I will if you'll have me.

Oh I will, I will if you'll have me.

Are you kidding me of course.

Are you kidding me of course.

And watch The Residents on Netflix.

And watch The Residents on Netflix.

Netflix. I'll watch it.

Netflix. I'll watch it.

It's great.

It's great.

Josh Cohen is the editor of the newsletter at Injermentum. Welcome back, but it's been a while too fast politics.

Josh Cohen is the editor of the newsletter at Injermentum. Welcome back, but it's been a while too fast politics.

Josh, Hello, it's good to be honest. It's been like I think last of Masani was during the election.

Josh, Hello, it's good to be honest. It's been like I think last of Masani was during the election.

Oh that turned out great. Yeah, so let's talk.

Oh that turned out great. Yeah, so let's talk.

We're in the wilderness here. You have this really good block. You're such a good and interesting writer and thinker. And one of the things you do is you've sort of you've been running through the possibility is for twenty eight, but also what do you sort of think talk to me about who you feel like as leading the party right now.

We're in the wilderness here. You have this really good block. You're such a good and interesting writer and thinker. And one of the things you do is you've sort of you've been running through the possibility is for twenty eight, but also what do you sort of think talk to me about who you feel like as leading the party right now.

It's a really tricky situation because I did immediately after the election, when they first started putting out the twenty twenty eight polling, the consistent thing, if we're gonna like look that far ahead, it has consistently shown Kamala Harris with like a meaningful lead. She's been around thirty thirty five forty percent of the vote, while everybody else, like this whole list of mostly identical kind of white governors in swing states and Pete Budachees on top of that, they've been AOC has been pulling him like the mid to low to high single digits. So in that sense, like she is still kind of like the front runner and the person that people like think of when they think of the Democratic Party. But the thing is, and I noted this like a couple like a week ago and people got really mad about it, is that she's been very very absent since the election. Like part of that is like the tradition, but she's only really shown up for like Broadway plays and award shows. It's like the traditional kind of thing that an outgoing administration does, where they like don't criticize a new party. But the thing is is that this isn't really a traditional set of circumstances, and they certainly didn't certain yeah, and they didn't campaign on Trump being a traditional opponent. So for her to kind of abide in to go to like the kind of default mode where they just kind of sink into the background, I think that there's like a contradiction there and their behavior and kind of how people feel about the moment. And this is something that I thought was very interesting. I read this in an AP piece about the huge rallies that Bernie Sanders has been doing his office. Actually, during the first couple of weeks of Trump's administration, they deliberately just thought, like, Okay, we could probably organize these things, but we'll just wait back to see if, like anybody wants to take a public role in like doing this kind of tour and like trying to press an argument and framework for the next four years. But nobody did it over the first month, so they just thought, well, if nobody's doing it, we should do it. And that they did it and it got this massive response he's been getting like presidential campaign rally sizes and like the February in March of an off year. I think that things are very much up for grabs. Anybody who's kind of treating this moment in the way that they kind of described it over the past number of years is somebody who I think people will gravitate towards. Because there's a lot of people who didn't necessarily like Bernie when he ran for president that I've seen, like across social media, like saying that they have a renewed appreciation for him just because he's going out and giving speeches. It's not any like kind of huge thing. But he's acting in the way that you would expect someone to act in this moment. And I think that anybody who fits that role as somebody who could get a lot of goodwill very early.

It's a really tricky situation because I did immediately after the election, when they first started putting out the twenty twenty eight polling, the consistent thing, if we're gonna like look that far ahead, it has consistently shown Kamala Harris with like a meaningful lead. She's been around thirty thirty five forty percent of the vote, while everybody else, like this whole list of mostly identical kind of white governors in swing states and Pete Budachees on top of that, they've been AOC has been pulling him like the mid to low to high single digits. So in that sense, like she is still kind of like the front runner and the person that people like think of when they think of the Democratic Party. But the thing is, and I noted this like a couple like a week ago and people got really mad about it, is that she's been very very absent since the election. Like part of that is like the tradition, but she's only really shown up for like Broadway plays and award shows. It's like the traditional kind of thing that an outgoing administration does, where they like don't criticize a new party. But the thing is is that this isn't really a traditional set of circumstances, and they certainly didn't certain yeah, and they didn't campaign on Trump being a traditional opponent. So for her to kind of abide in to go to like the kind of default mode where they just kind of sink into the background, I think that there's like a contradiction there and their behavior and kind of how people feel about the moment. And this is something that I thought was very interesting. I read this in an AP piece about the huge rallies that Bernie Sanders has been doing his office. Actually, during the first couple of weeks of Trump's administration, they deliberately just thought, like, Okay, we could probably organize these things, but we'll just wait back to see if, like anybody wants to take a public role in like doing this kind of tour and like trying to press an argument and framework for the next four years. But nobody did it over the first month, so they just thought, well, if nobody's doing it, we should do it. And that they did it and it got this massive response he's been getting like presidential campaign rally sizes and like the February in March of an off year. I think that things are very much up for grabs. Anybody who's kind of treating this moment in the way that they kind of described it over the past number of years is somebody who I think people will gravitate towards. Because there's a lot of people who didn't necessarily like Bernie when he ran for president that I've seen, like across social media, like saying that they have a renewed appreciation for him just because he's going out and giving speeches. It's not any like kind of huge thing. But he's acting in the way that you would expect someone to act in this moment. And I think that anybody who fits that role as somebody who could get a lot of goodwill very early.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean what Trump did that was smart and that set him up. Trump right defies gravity. He's his own I mean, you can't run on his playbook, because his playbook is be famous for twenty years for being a brother businessman, Like it's unreplicatable. But what he did, which I think is smart, is in the first two years of the Biden administration. I'd love you to like actually tell me everything my theory is right or wrong, because I have this theory that what Biden did wrong was that he spent two years wildly avoiding the press, shutting them down at every moment, being aggressively boring, refusing to participate in anything a start contrast to and again this is no love for Trump here, but Trump does pool sprays, He talks to the media on the airplane, he's in, he's out, He's talking to them all the time. Now he only does interviews with friendly outlets like Fox or Real America Voice or Mark Levin, but he's still doing a ton of media and like Biden, in the first two years, you know, you could count in one hand. And then in the second two years they just started panicking and trying desperately to get some coverage, but they still didn't want to give their guy out.

I mean what Trump did that was smart and that set him up. Trump right defies gravity. He's his own I mean, you can't run on his playbook, because his playbook is be famous for twenty years for being a brother businessman, Like it's unreplicatable. But what he did, which I think is smart, is in the first two years of the Biden administration. I'd love you to like actually tell me everything my theory is right or wrong, because I have this theory that what Biden did wrong was that he spent two years wildly avoiding the press, shutting them down at every moment, being aggressively boring, refusing to participate in anything a start contrast to and again this is no love for Trump here, but Trump does pool sprays, He talks to the media on the airplane, he's in, he's out, He's talking to them all the time. Now he only does interviews with friendly outlets like Fox or Real America Voice or Mark Levin, but he's still doing a ton of media and like Biden, in the first two years, you know, you could count in one hand. And then in the second two years they just started panicking and trying desperately to get some coverage, but they still didn't want to give their guy out.

So it ended up being.

So it ended up being.

Just like whereas Trump has been sort of running a shadow government this whole time, which I think has served him guy.

Just like whereas Trump has been sort of running a shadow government this whole time, which I think has served him guy.

I totally agree with that. One of the things that really struck me when he first got into office was just the following politics and their buying for four years and he was such like a managed kind of just his total lack of a presence. And then Trump comes in on day one. He has like these press pools around the resolute desk in the Oval office where he's just like talking with them about whatever for like an hour, and that totally drives the news on the conversation. It made me realize, like, oh, Biden really did leave a lot on the table here, and a lot yeah, he had such to put nicely communication deficiencies that I don't know if he did try to do a blitz throughout his four years that it would have. But like even like just basic stuff like press conferences. He only gave like three Oval office addresses, even though his presidency was very eventful and he had a lot of stuff he needed to manage public opinion. It was just a very reactive kind of strategy instead of a proactive one, and they ended up kind of being swamped on the issues by the end of.

I totally agree with that. One of the things that really struck me when he first got into office was just the following politics and their buying for four years and he was such like a managed kind of just his total lack of a presence. And then Trump comes in on day one. He has like these press pools around the resolute desk in the Oval office where he's just like talking with them about whatever for like an hour, and that totally drives the news on the conversation. It made me realize, like, oh, Biden really did leave a lot on the table here, and a lot yeah, he had such to put nicely communication deficiencies that I don't know if he did try to do a blitz throughout his four years that it would have. But like even like just basic stuff like press conferences. He only gave like three Oval office addresses, even though his presidency was very eventful and he had a lot of stuff he needed to manage public opinion. It was just a very reactive kind of strategy instead of a proactive one, and they ended up kind of being swamped on the issues by the end of.

It because they couldn't control the narrative at all. And it's something I see in democratic electives at large, is this idea. You know, you'll see like a good example is congressional leadership. Right, they'll come out with a statement, You'll get them on TV. You know, you get leader Jeffries on TV once, so we you know, maybe you'll make a little video.

It because they couldn't control the narrative at all. And it's something I see in democratic electives at large, is this idea. You know, you'll see like a good example is congressional leadership. Right, they'll come out with a statement, You'll get them on TV. You know, you get leader Jeffries on TV once, so we you know, maybe you'll make a little video.

You know.

You know.

There's just not the same kind of effort at flooding the zone.

There's just not the same kind of effort at flooding the zone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that the stuff that Bernie has done is because like as somebody who's more on the left, he does stand out even like among our tendency, as somebody who's been uniquely successful and like the remarkable thing and like this is stuff people were saying like about him, like early in the eighties before anybody knew who he was nationally, is that he was an extremely effective messenger in terms of discipline, just saying the same thing over and over, like when he was mayor of Burlington. It got to the point where he defined the terms of the debate so much that by the end of his tenure even his opponents were really speaking like kind of the same language as him, just proposing different kinds of ways of doing the problems that he made the center of politics. That's art that Democrats have really lost, I think in kind of the very consultant driven kind of like structure that they have where it's always chasing polling instead of driving it, which I think is possible.

I think that the stuff that Bernie has done is because like as somebody who's more on the left, he does stand out even like among our tendency, as somebody who's been uniquely successful and like the remarkable thing and like this is stuff people were saying like about him, like early in the eighties before anybody knew who he was nationally, is that he was an extremely effective messenger in terms of discipline, just saying the same thing over and over, like when he was mayor of Burlington. It got to the point where he defined the terms of the debate so much that by the end of his tenure even his opponents were really speaking like kind of the same language as him, just proposing different kinds of ways of doing the problems that he made the center of politics. That's art that Democrats have really lost, I think in kind of the very consultant driven kind of like structure that they have where it's always chasing polling instead of driving it, which I think is possible.

Chasing polling is a really good point.

Chasing polling is a really good point.

So the people we've seen out on the stump, right, Chris Murphy, endless right videos, movies on television and everything everywhere tweeting up a storm.

So the people we've seen out on the stump, right, Chris Murphy, endless right videos, movies on television and everything everywhere tweeting up a storm.

I mean, Bernie was the first.

I mean, Bernie was the first.

To do it, and he is doing the town halls and they're getting huge response. And I actually was texting with one of his people about like the huge response and they're going to Republican districts. So okay, So we've got him, We've got Murphy, and we've got Tim Walls. I mean, can you think of anyone else who's sort of out there in that same kind of way.

To do it, and he is doing the town halls and they're getting huge response. And I actually was texting with one of his people about like the huge response and they're going to Republican districts. So okay, So we've got him, We've got Murphy, and we've got Tim Walls. I mean, can you think of anyone else who's sort of out there in that same kind of way.

He did bring Sean Fain on his tour.

He did bring Sean Fain on his tour.

Oh yes, you're very smart.

Oh yes, you're very smart.

And he also is bringing AOC to his tour in the West. He's going to like Colorado, Nevada, and Arizona, I think, and she's coming along with him, which is like an interesting piece of kind of secession management.

And he also is bringing AOC to his tour in the West. He's going to like Colorado, Nevada, and Arizona, I think, and she's coming along with him, which is like an interesting piece of kind of secession management.

Right because he's been criticized for not having a successor because he is eighty three.

Right because he's been criticized for not having a successor because he is eighty three.

Yeah, he is eighty three. He'll be eighty seven and twenty twenty eight, and that'll be a pretty valuable endorsement. And you don't know if that he'll be around to give that hopefully. I mean, he seems pretty spry right now.

Yeah, he is eighty three. He'll be eighty seven and twenty twenty eight, and that'll be a pretty valuable endorsement. And you don't know if that he'll be around to give that hopefully. I mean, he seems pretty spry right now.

But he's pretty spy and he's very sharp.

But he's pretty spy and he's very sharp.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, the chief of staff of my guy Pritzker, you know who she is.

Yeah, the chief of staff of my guy Pritzker, you know who she is.

Right, Anna had this very.

Right, Anna had this very.

Smart thing which she tweeted, which was basically, this is not about left or right right, the left side of the party, the middle of the party, the more sort of modern never trumpling of the party, which is basically what it is at this point. It's actually about are you going to fight or are you going to not fight?

Smart thing which she tweeted, which was basically, this is not about left or right right, the left side of the party, the middle of the party, the more sort of modern never trumpling of the party, which is basically what it is at this point. It's actually about are you going to fight or are you going to not fight?

Yeah, and I think that people really underestimate how like there was the kind of like now infamous James Carville line in his New York Times off ever, he said, Oh, Democrats need to play dead, and he's obviously just one person, But that really is the kind of strategy that the leadership, the kind of fighter versus not fighter thing, that's what they're taking. They are trying to be as non confrontational as possible. They're trying to just like let Republicans take up all the attention so when things get bad then people will blame them and they'll go to Democrats as an alternative.

Yeah, and I think that people really underestimate how like there was the kind of like now infamous James Carville line in his New York Times off ever, he said, Oh, Democrats need to play dead, and he's obviously just one person, But that really is the kind of strategy that the leadership, the kind of fighter versus not fighter thing, that's what they're taking. They are trying to be as non confrontational as possible. They're trying to just like let Republicans take up all the attention so when things get bad then people will blame them and they'll go to Democrats as an alternative.

That's the wrong play, I think.

That's the wrong play, I think.

Yeah, it's not really what any opposition I think is ever really done.

Yeah, it's not really what any opposition I think is ever really done.

Right.

Right.

He doesn't work.

He doesn't work.

They didn't do that in twenty eighteen. There was like they were very active in opposing him, and there's I think there's sort of like this weird kind of revisionist history where everybody's trying to paint everything that involve the eight years of resistance to Trump as this kind of retrospective failure because of what the end result was. But if you look at what they did during his first four years, like this kind of era that's now being looked back on, is like this embarrassing too woe thing that created a backlash. It was very effective in and of itself. Trump came in with the trifecta in twenty sixteen, and he left in twenty twenty. His party had lost the presidency of the House in the Senate, the last time that had happened so quickly for I think a president whose party was newly elected, I think was like Grover Cleveland or something. It's not typical for a party to come in like I know Herbert Hoover did, but he was like at the tail end of three administrations. It's not typical for a party to lose that much goodwill that fast. That was a real like. So a lot of what Democrats did during the first four years did work. Yeah, it did work.

They didn't do that in twenty eighteen. There was like they were very active in opposing him, and there's I think there's sort of like this weird kind of revisionist history where everybody's trying to paint everything that involve the eight years of resistance to Trump as this kind of retrospective failure because of what the end result was. But if you look at what they did during his first four years, like this kind of era that's now being looked back on, is like this embarrassing too woe thing that created a backlash. It was very effective in and of itself. Trump came in with the trifecta in twenty sixteen, and he left in twenty twenty. His party had lost the presidency of the House in the Senate, the last time that had happened so quickly for I think a president whose party was newly elected, I think was like Grover Cleveland or something. It's not typical for a party to come in like I know Herbert Hoover did, but he was like at the tail end of three administrations. It's not typical for a party to lose that much goodwill that fast. That was a real like. So a lot of what Democrats did during the first four years did work. Yeah, it did work.

Yeah. And you know what annoys me about that because I agree. I think there's a lot of like shitting on twenty sixteen because you know, saying it was cringe or whatever.

Yeah. And you know what annoys me about that because I agree. I think there's a lot of like shitting on twenty sixteen because you know, saying it was cringe or whatever.

Or twenty eighteen the resistance.

Or twenty eighteen the resistance.

Right.

Right.

When you would talk to people about the twenty twenty four election, you would say, well, you know, Donald Trump wants to do this, this and this in voters would say, but he didn't do it last time, so he won't do it this time. And in some ways Democrats were really a victim of their own success, right Like Trump had wanted to repeal Obamacare had it not been for Meghan McCain's dad. You may remember him as a United.

When you would talk to people about the twenty twenty four election, you would say, well, you know, Donald Trump wants to do this, this and this in voters would say, but he didn't do it last time, so he won't do it this time. And in some ways Democrats were really a victim of their own success, right Like Trump had wanted to repeal Obamacare had it not been for Meghan McCain's dad. You may remember him as a United.

States Senator, as obscure figure.

States Senator, as obscure figure.

Right who me and Meghan made it all on her own. Of course, had she not made it on her own, she had this.

Right who me and Meghan made it all on her own. Of course, had she not made it on her own, she had this.

Father who actually was the vote that thumbs down that saved healthcare for all of these millions of people. I don't know why we're shitting on the sort of success of that. And the other thing I want to ask you, I heard a friend of mine say this on a podcast, and I got really mad at him, and I actually called him up and yelled at him because I was like, my favorite thing to do is call people up and yell at them about their opinions.

Father who actually was the vote that thumbs down that saved healthcare for all of these millions of people. I don't know why we're shitting on the sort of success of that. And the other thing I want to ask you, I heard a friend of mine say this on a podcast, and I got really mad at him, and I actually called him up and yelled at him because I was like, my favorite thing to do is call people up and yell at them about their opinions.

But he had said, we are in.

But he had said, we are in.

A cycle of back to back to back backlashes where voters are so angry that they're going to backlash, you know. And he said Hair's going to lose and Trump is going to win, not because they want trumpsm but because they're angry at the administration, they have right now talk me through that idea.

A cycle of back to back to back backlashes where voters are so angry that they're going to backlash, you know. And he said Hair's going to lose and Trump is going to win, not because they want trumpsm but because they're angry at the administration, they have right now talk me through that idea.

There is something to say about that. And I think that, like, if you look at it for a very broad view, it's just this kind of long period where people don't really feel like the central issues that they're angry about are are being like really directly addressed. We are now on like a third straight like this will be a one term presidency. I'm like, it's our third straight one term presidency. I can't like I think like during the Cold War period, only like there were two total presidents like Carter and hw Bush were one term presidents and just lost reelection and it wasn't because they were killed. This is a remarkable period of like swings back one way and the other. And I do think that there is a lot to be said about people voting for Trump over Harris because like not necessarily as an endorsement of his program, obviously it was a very narrow election. And also, like what you were saying about Trump's first term, this is something I wrote about, like is in this piece or like a month or two ago, about the main contradictions of like Trump's presidency, Trump's biggest advantage, like by the end of the election, was that people, like a majority of people looked back on his first administration or they saw it as a retrospective success, which was not the case at all. He never had positive approval during his first term, but people look back in what he did then when like they thought, like the international scene was relatively peaceful and the economy wasn't undergoing like an acostal living crisis, and just like relative stability compared to the post COVID world, and they looked back on that positively. But I think is fascinating is that that is that that comes after four years where the right has broadly written off Trump's first term as a miserable, compromised failure. Like their entire way to explain the election to this they like twenty twenty to the sent that they recognized that they even lost it was that, oh, Trump had too many globalists around him, he wasn't prepared enough, he didn't have he wasn't truly socially conservative enough, he wasn't dedicated enough to the cause. So they have undergone this extensive effort to really like institutionalize this form of politics that they're imagining is what people really wanted. And at the tail end of that entire process, when they get JD. Vance's VP and they have the America First Policy Institute and Product twenty twenty five planning out all these radical changes, what people vote him in on is over that first term, they have gifts avowed more than anybody else. And I think that if that's what a lot of people expected, they were going off with what they knew, and his approval has like plummeted in the past couple of weeks, like even more rapidly than a honeymoon bomb usually fades. And I think that the people were generally by the end of twenty twenty four, they were fine with the idea of a good economy and mean tweets. They weren't like so disgusted by Trump as a figure, Like it's been a decade since he entered politics. They're basically just CETI sized to whatever his shtick is. They were fine with that. But instead of getting like what they got during his first term, which is just him being this character while things seem to go well, which is a compromise people were willing to make, they're getting this huge paleocon ideological project that was never really litigated during the term itself, and I think like presenting like obviously, there's the oligarchy thing, and like talking about how the rich people control it and it's not real democracy. I think that's a very effective framing that Republicans can't really respond to, but also just kind of turning the narrative of elite capture on its head and talking about how his administration is being run by these kind of like super ideological creeps. It's a message that the right has hit liberals with for a long time. Like I think making the Heritage Foundation a household name was one of the few real impressive successes of twenty twenty four on the Democratic side, and more of that I think will be helpful.