You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the show and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.

You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the show and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.

Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil.

Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil.

I'm Rasha Pecerreira and I'm Evett Genteeley and today's episode is beyond special to us. And this episode is going to be a two parter because it has been a long time in the making for this particular one.

I'm Rasha Pecerreira and I'm Evett Genteeley and today's episode is beyond special to us. And this episode is going to be a two parter because it has been a long time in the making for this particular one.

Yes, it absolutely has, and we are finally giving our Root of Evil and Facing Evil fans exactly what they want and in depth look at the making of our hit podcast. Asked Root of Evil the true story of the Hodel family and the Black Dahlia.

Yes, it absolutely has, and we are finally giving our Root of Evil and Facing Evil fans exactly what they want and in depth look at the making of our hit podcast. Asked Root of Evil the true story of the Hodel family and the Black Dahlia.

And the best way to do that is to have the creator, the man himself, the producer, the writer, the director of Root of Evil, mister Zach Levitt is here with us on Facing Evil como.

And the best way to do that is to have the creator, the man himself, the producer, the writer, the director of Root of Evil, mister Zach Levitt is here with us on Facing Evil como.

My I am so excited to be here. I thank you for asking me on. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about what was such a special time in my career, in my life and getting to know you guys and making the show, and this is sort of the conversation that I've been waiting to have for a while, to talk about the making of the show and what we went through and the journey. And I'm really excited. So thank you for having me on.

My I am so excited to be here. I thank you for asking me on. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about what was such a special time in my career, in my life and getting to know you guys and making the show, and this is sort of the conversation that I've been waiting to have for a while, to talk about the making of the show and what we went through and the journey. And I'm really excited. So thank you for having me on.

Thank you, thank you here.

Thank you, thank you here.

Yeah, like this, like you said, this has been years in the making.

Yeah, like this, like you said, this has been years in the making.

This conversation.

This conversation.

Every single listener is going to want to listen in on because we're going to answer all of the questions and Yvette and I get DMS messages, calls, all the things on the daily, and we have been getting all those since twenty nineteen when Root of Evil came out. We're going to answer everything, and we more importantly, we're going to have that amazing conversation with you, Zach, and we're going to talk about everything that was left on the cutting room floor of Rood of Evil. A lot of people don't know what was left on the counting room floor is monumental to the story and to our lives. And we're going to answer that big question, who was our mom's father? Was it George Hodell, Was it her grandfather or was it not. We're going to get into all of that today. Zach Lovitt is a two time Emmy, Peabody, NAACP, Image and New York Press Club Award winning documentary, film and podcast creator who has helmed some of the most popular and acclaimed documentaries of all time. Zach's hit podcasts include Gangster Capitalism, The Sunshine Place, Relative Unknown, and our smash hit true crime podcast, Root of Evil, The True Story of the Hodell Family and The Black Dahlia. And next up for Zach, not only is he creating, producing, directing all the things, he is finally stepping in front of the mic as the host of the highly anticipated podcast The Set.

Every single listener is going to want to listen in on because we're going to answer all of the questions and Yvette and I get DMS messages, calls, all the things on the daily, and we have been getting all those since twenty nineteen when Root of Evil came out. We're going to answer everything, and we more importantly, we're going to have that amazing conversation with you, Zach, and we're going to talk about everything that was left on the cutting room floor of Rood of Evil. A lot of people don't know what was left on the counting room floor is monumental to the story and to our lives. And we're going to answer that big question, who was our mom's father? Was it George Hodell, Was it her grandfather or was it not. We're going to get into all of that today. Zach Lovitt is a two time Emmy, Peabody, NAACP, Image and New York Press Club Award winning documentary, film and podcast creator who has helmed some of the most popular and acclaimed documentaries of all time. Zach's hit podcasts include Gangster Capitalism, The Sunshine Place, Relative Unknown, and our smash hit true crime podcast, Root of Evil, The True Story of the Hodell Family and The Black Dahlia. And next up for Zach, not only is he creating, producing, directing all the things, he is finally stepping in front of the mic as the host of the highly anticipated podcast The Set.

So prior to you making podcasts, Zach has made documentary films from his time with the NBA. So we're talking about thirty for thirty, Clutch City, Bad Boys, The Doctor, Doctor j Doctor Julius Irving, who I just have to say it was my dad's favorite, along with mine, The Dream Team, The Announcement, and Once Brothers. I mean, Zach, you have stood out as a fierce force and a tenacious storyteller.

So prior to you making podcasts, Zach has made documentary films from his time with the NBA. So we're talking about thirty for thirty, Clutch City, Bad Boys, The Doctor, Doctor j Doctor Julius Irving, who I just have to say it was my dad's favorite, along with mine, The Dream Team, The Announcement, and Once Brothers. I mean, Zach, you have stood out as a fierce force and a tenacious storyteller.

Zach, But what I.

Zach, But what I.

Really love most about you and this is this is so true and it's in your bio. But you can work with the biggest names in the entertainment, but then you can work with unknown characters like us. But you bring everybody's story to light. And we feel that in all that you do, like there's heart, there's grit, there's connection, and that is a that is a storyteller at its finest.

Really love most about you and this is this is so true and it's in your bio. But you can work with the biggest names in the entertainment, but then you can work with unknown characters like us. But you bring everybody's story to light. And we feel that in all that you do, like there's heart, there's grit, there's connection, and that is a that is a storyteller at its finest.

Zach.

Zach.

So, well, here's what I'm going to say the next time I have a massive crisis of confidence on the next project that I do, which there will be, because it always comes where you say this is not going to be good. Nobody's going to want to see or listen to this. I'm going to listen back to that. So thank you for that. That's super kind. And you know, I mean, I think for me, I go into every story beginning with a sense of curiosity. Who are the people. That's really what I connect with, whether it's a it's a former basketball player or athlete, or the two of you, or anybody that I have, you know, put into one of these stories. It's a curiosity about your lives and what you've been through. And you know, gaining that level of understanding. To be able to convey that to the audience is what I love about what I do more than anything, making those connections. And you know, the greatest thing to me about these stories and working on documentaries are the relationships that you make, you know, And here we are five five years later from when we first spoke on the phone and I first came out to San Francisco and LA to meet up with you and and do these these shoots, these these recordings. Here we are five years later, and that relationship has grown to this point. And I love that about docs because it's such an intimate task. It's such an intimate journey to to get to know the people on a level where you know you can trust each other in the telling of the story and and trust each other with your deepest, darkest secrets and your lives, and you know, and that's a that's a big undertaking. And you know, I that is certainly something that I hold as incredibly important. And uh, I love the fact that I have been able to continue these relationships through the years, and that's a really rewarding part of what I do, being able to to to follow along in your lives as well. And look at I mean, now you have your own podcast, and.

So, well, here's what I'm going to say the next time I have a massive crisis of confidence on the next project that I do, which there will be, because it always comes where you say this is not going to be good. Nobody's going to want to see or listen to this. I'm going to listen back to that. So thank you for that. That's super kind. And you know, I mean, I think for me, I go into every story beginning with a sense of curiosity. Who are the people. That's really what I connect with, whether it's a it's a former basketball player or athlete, or the two of you, or anybody that I have, you know, put into one of these stories. It's a curiosity about your lives and what you've been through. And you know, gaining that level of understanding. To be able to convey that to the audience is what I love about what I do more than anything, making those connections. And you know, the greatest thing to me about these stories and working on documentaries are the relationships that you make, you know, And here we are five five years later from when we first spoke on the phone and I first came out to San Francisco and LA to meet up with you and and do these these shoots, these these recordings. Here we are five years later, and that relationship has grown to this point. And I love that about docs because it's such an intimate task. It's such an intimate journey to to get to know the people on a level where you know you can trust each other in the telling of the story and and trust each other with your deepest, darkest secrets and your lives, and you know, and that's a that's a big undertaking. And you know, I that is certainly something that I hold as incredibly important. And uh, I love the fact that I have been able to continue these relationships through the years, and that's a really rewarding part of what I do, being able to to to follow along in your lives as well. And look at I mean, now you have your own podcast, and.

Thank you, mister Zach Lovett to mister Donald, all right, it's because.

Thank you, mister Zach Lovett to mister Donald, all right, it's because.

Of what you've been able to do and and people have made that connection with the two of you and they hear the you know, the warmth in your voices and the and the sincerity and so I'm just it's a stretch to say proud parent, but that's sort of what I feel sometimes, I know, God brother, Yeah, absolutely, that's a much better analogy. So that's super rewarding for me. So this is like full circle.

Of what you've been able to do and and people have made that connection with the two of you and they hear the you know, the warmth in your voices and the and the sincerity and so I'm just it's a stretch to say proud parent, but that's sort of what I feel sometimes, I know, God brother, Yeah, absolutely, that's a much better analogy. So that's super rewarding for me. So this is like full circle.

It is full circle, and you're you're a true storyteller exactly.

It is full circle, and you're you're a true storyteller exactly.

And I was gonna that was going to be one of my first questions for you, Zach, is because you have this you know, immense body of work. Right where you started in the NBA, right it was all about the sports and the basketball. And then I guess my question is how did you transition from you know, documentary films to podcasting? How did that come about?

And I was gonna that was going to be one of my first questions for you, Zach, is because you have this you know, immense body of work. Right where you started in the NBA, right it was all about the sports and the basketball. And then I guess my question is how did you transition from you know, documentary films to podcasting? How did that come about?

Yeah? So, I mean I was lucky in a sense when I began working in production with the NBA. I always wanted to get into production. I just I didn't know anything about it. So you know, how do you break your way in? And so working at NBA Entertainment was the perfect opportunity. I mean, I'm a huge basketball fan, and it afforded me the opportunity to learn production from the start, you know, as a production assistant, work my way up, and I realized that I loved to do it. I loved pulling overnighters in the edit room and making the deadline and trying, you know, just trying to work on being an actual storyteller. And so I was able to do that and had that tremendous opportunity to make some thirty for thirties and these other films, and through that I sort of wanted to branch out. I didn't want to do sports stories anymore at that point. In fact, the ones that I did, I was always sort of searching for an angle to connect in a more human way, you know, rather.

Yeah? So, I mean I was lucky in a sense when I began working in production with the NBA. I always wanted to get into production. I just I didn't know anything about it. So you know, how do you break your way in? And so working at NBA Entertainment was the perfect opportunity. I mean, I'm a huge basketball fan, and it afforded me the opportunity to learn production from the start, you know, as a production assistant, work my way up, and I realized that I loved to do it. I loved pulling overnighters in the edit room and making the deadline and trying, you know, just trying to work on being an actual storyteller. And so I was able to do that and had that tremendous opportunity to make some thirty for thirties and these other films, and through that I sort of wanted to branch out. I didn't want to do sports stories anymore at that point. In fact, the ones that I did, I was always sort of searching for an angle to connect in a more human way, you know, rather.

Than the heart of the story.

Than the heart of the story.

Yeah, rather than portraying a basketball player, who is this person? And so that has always been what I've been drawn to. And at a certain point I had made the decision that I wanted to do that in a different way, and this opportunity became available to come on and start an Originals division for Caden's Thirteen, and initially it was going to be sports stories, and I said, well, I kind of want to do other stuff. And Chris Corcoran, who hired me, to his credit, he just sort of said, that sounds great, whatever you think. And having said all that, as I'm you know, having these talks to come on board, talks were already going on behind the scenes between Caden's Thirteen and TNT for a Sister podcast, which sounded really cool. I can actually picture where I was in my old house, stand in the room having this conversation, asking the question, well, are any of the family members around?

Yeah, rather than portraying a basketball player, who is this person? And so that has always been what I've been drawn to. And at a certain point I had made the decision that I wanted to do that in a different way, and this opportunity became available to come on and start an Originals division for Caden's Thirteen, and initially it was going to be sports stories, and I said, well, I kind of want to do other stuff. And Chris Corcoran, who hired me, to his credit, he just sort of said, that sounds great, whatever you think. And having said all that, as I'm you know, having these talks to come on board, talks were already going on behind the scenes between Caden's Thirteen and TNT for a Sister podcast, which sounded really cool. I can actually picture where I was in my old house, stand in the room having this conversation, asking the question, well, are any of the family members around?

That's exactly what I was going to ask, Like, take us back to that moment, right when you decided to do this.

That's exactly what I was going to ask, Like, take us back to that moment, right when you decided to do this.

Yeah, when I read your mom's book, as I said, I was fascinated and I'm like, wow, there is a lot here.

Yeah, when I read your mom's book, as I said, I was fascinated and I'm like, wow, there is a lot here.

Right, one little layer of the onion exactly.

Right, one little layer of the onion exactly.

It was the first layer of the onion. But I was devastated that to find out that your mom had passed because my initial thought was, she'll tell her own story. Yeah, she's never done this except for her book, and that'll be really interesting. And I knew from her book that she had a daughter named the Vett.

It was the first layer of the onion. But I was devastated that to find out that your mom had passed because my initial thought was, she'll tell her own story. Yeah, she's never done this except for her book, and that'll be really interesting. And I knew from her book that she had a daughter named the Vett.

I know, I'm not I'm barely mentioned. I'm in the epilogue.

I know, I'm not I'm barely mentioned. I'm in the epilogue.

You probably didn't read the epilogue.

You probably didn't read the epilogue.

So I remember on that call with TNT, they said, well, we'll put you in touch with the girls.

So I remember on that call with TNT, they said, well, we'll put you in touch with the girls.

And you're like the girls with.

And you're like the girls with.

Any girls, there's more than one. And I said to myself, oh shit, like, how am I going to incorporate two of them as potential hosts? You know what is that going to look like? So all of these things were swirling in my mind in the background as we had our first conversation. And I'm trying to remember. I think I may have spoken with Sam Sheridan prior to speaking with you read Yeah, yeah, so Sam Sheridan was the writer and I think the ep and I am the Night, Yeah, And so I spoke to him. I remember the first question I asked him was, can you send me your reading list, like all the books that you read to write I Am the Night because I need to start researching. And so he sent me a whole list of books and I went out and I read all of them. And it was such a wide range of topics, from surrealist art to the history of LA and you know, I found a bunch on my own that I read as well. And one of the things that he said on that conversation and I was just, I mean, I'm trying to sort of jump on the treadmill as it's speeding along. And you've been writing this thing for however long, a year or longer.

Any girls, there's more than one. And I said to myself, oh shit, like, how am I going to incorporate two of them as potential hosts? You know what is that going to look like? So all of these things were swirling in my mind in the background as we had our first conversation. And I'm trying to remember. I think I may have spoken with Sam Sheridan prior to speaking with you read Yeah, yeah, so Sam Sheridan was the writer and I think the ep and I am the Night, Yeah, And so I spoke to him. I remember the first question I asked him was, can you send me your reading list, like all the books that you read to write I Am the Night because I need to start researching. And so he sent me a whole list of books and I went out and I read all of them. And it was such a wide range of topics, from surrealist art to the history of LA and you know, I found a bunch on my own that I read as well. And one of the things that he said on that conversation and I was just, I mean, I'm trying to sort of jump on the treadmill as it's speeding along. And you've been writing this thing for however long, a year or longer.

I know that you worked with Mom for a year before he passed. Yeah.

I know that you worked with Mom for a year before he passed. Yeah.

Yeah, so you know, any story that I do, my first thing is to do research, and I try to literally read everything possible it's ever been written about those topics, so that you know, if I'm going to tell the story, I have to be an authority on that story. But one of the things that he mentioned in that conversation was, so I just spoke to the girls Russia and Nivette, and I'm saying to myself, Okay, Rasha, I didn't know there was a second daughter. And he said, they told me that they just went on twenty three and meters. They just submitted their DNA to twenty three and meter but I told them not to check the results until they speak with you.

Yeah, so you know, any story that I do, my first thing is to do research, and I try to literally read everything possible it's ever been written about those topics, so that you know, if I'm going to tell the story, I have to be an authority on that story. But one of the things that he mentioned in that conversation was, so I just spoke to the girls Russia and Nivette, and I'm saying to myself, Okay, Rasha, I didn't know there was a second daughter. And he said, they told me that they just went on twenty three and meters. They just submitted their DNA to twenty three and meter but I told them not to check the results until they speak with you.

He actually had it done before Mom passed.

He actually had it done before Mom passed.

But yeah, but we hadn't checked because some things were coming up real funky, and we're like, oh my god, this is going to prove that George was Mom's father.

But yeah, but we hadn't checked because some things were coming up real funky, and we're like, oh my god, this is going to prove that George was Mom's father.

So I said, DNA results, you know, what is that all about? That sounds interesting and it sounds like it could be an interesting sort of reveal for the podcast. I'll just talk to them. I don't even know DNA results for what? Right again? I remember where I was the first time we spoke. I was sitting in my car in the parking lot of the library in the town I live in, because I had just taken out a bunch of books, and we spoke, and I remember feeling this utter sense of warmth emanating from the two of you, and you were both open to any idea that I had and ready to ready to really just tackle the story and go wherever I asked you to go. And whether it was fly to la or down to San fran from Portland or whatever whatever it was, you were both ready to do anything. And I asked you, you know, if you would be willing to be the hosts.

So I said, DNA results, you know, what is that all about? That sounds interesting and it sounds like it could be an interesting sort of reveal for the podcast. I'll just talk to them. I don't even know DNA results for what? Right again? I remember where I was the first time we spoke. I was sitting in my car in the parking lot of the library in the town I live in, because I had just taken out a bunch of books, and we spoke, and I remember feeling this utter sense of warmth emanating from the two of you, and you were both open to any idea that I had and ready to ready to really just tackle the story and go wherever I asked you to go. And whether it was fly to la or down to San fran from Portland or whatever whatever it was, you were both ready to do anything. And I asked you, you know, if you would be willing to be the hosts.

Wait wait, wait, wait, I got to throw this in. So I remember where I was. I was in my car as well. You know, This was before twenty twenty when everything shut down. San Francisco was still bustling, people were walking everywhere, and we were getting this call from Zach Levitt. You know, Sam said, you're going to get this call from Zach Levitt. He wants to talk to both of you. And I just remember feeling so I always like to describe it as just you cradled us, you know what I mean, Like you made us feel so at home in that very first conversation. From that moment, we you know, literally fell in love with you. And you know that that doesn't happen often, but we could tell that. You know, you were a solid, solid guy who really wanted to do the story right.

Wait wait, wait, wait, I got to throw this in. So I remember where I was. I was in my car as well. You know, This was before twenty twenty when everything shut down. San Francisco was still bustling, people were walking everywhere, and we were getting this call from Zach Levitt. You know, Sam said, you're going to get this call from Zach Levitt. He wants to talk to both of you. And I just remember feeling so I always like to describe it as just you cradled us, you know what I mean, Like you made us feel so at home in that very first conversation. From that moment, we you know, literally fell in love with you. And you know that that doesn't happen often, but we could tell that. You know, you were a solid, solid guy who really wanted to do the story right.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And you have to remember too, we have to tell our listeners this story. I remember, and I don't know if it was in that first conversation. And yes, I remember where I was. I was five feet from where I am right now since I'm recording in my closet. I was in my bedroom and I was instantly captivated by your voice and I'm like, oh my god, like I could listen to you talk for hours. But I remember you saying, and I don't remember if it was that first. I know, Zach, I know you don't like your voice, but I love your fat Zach.

And you have to remember too, we have to tell our listeners this story. I remember, and I don't know if it was in that first conversation. And yes, I remember where I was. I was five feet from where I am right now since I'm recording in my closet. I was in my bedroom and I was instantly captivated by your voice and I'm like, oh my god, like I could listen to you talk for hours. But I remember you saying, and I don't remember if it was that first. I know, Zach, I know you don't like your voice, but I love your fat Zach.

Accept it. You're a podcast post. Now you're in our same realm.

Accept it. You're a podcast post. Now you're in our same realm.

But I remember, and I don't remember if it was that very first conversation or the thousands we had after that, but you're like, all right, Yvett and Russia like I'm not sure which one of you I'm going to pick as the host.

But I remember, and I don't remember if it was that very first conversation or the thousands we had after that, but you're like, all right, Yvett and Russia like I'm not sure which one of you I'm going to pick as the host.

Wow, I don't remember that. I was probably like hedging my best or something like right.

Wow, I don't remember that. I was probably like hedging my best or something like right.

And and we're like, yeah, you know, it's we're just happy to be a part of it. And Mom, you know, it's like she knew what a podcast was before podcasts existed, because she started recording and making all these recordings for years and years and years.

And and we're like, yeah, you know, it's we're just happy to be a part of it. And Mom, you know, it's like she knew what a podcast was before podcasts existed, because she started recording and making all these recordings for years and years and years.

And you know, Yvette and I have never had jealousy anything like that, and we're like.

And you know, Yvette and I have never had jealousy anything like that, and we're like.

Never never any competition. So we were like, okay, well whoever.

Never never any competition. So we were like, okay, well whoever.

Yep, whatever, and then you were like, no, it has to be the two of you. I mean you tell us like.

Yep, whatever, and then you were like, no, it has to be the two of you. I mean you tell us like.

Yeah, well, I do remember that part because and I think I told you this early on when we when we first met. I've never seen siblings and I have a brother that I'm super close with, but I've never seen siblings. There is no competition, there is no jealousy, There is nothing between the two of you except this, like I said before, this warmth. And you weren't proscriptive about it, like you know, we do everything together. But it was evident right from the start that this is how it had to be because you were finishing each other's sentences, and I mean it was like it was like you were twins or something. But yeah, the energy I knew that having the two of you together, and also you leaned on each other emotionally.

Yeah, well, I do remember that part because and I think I told you this early on when we when we first met. I've never seen siblings and I have a brother that I'm super close with, but I've never seen siblings. There is no competition, there is no jealousy, There is nothing between the two of you except this, like I said before, this warmth. And you weren't proscriptive about it, like you know, we do everything together. But it was evident right from the start that this is how it had to be because you were finishing each other's sentences, and I mean it was like it was like you were twins or something. But yeah, the energy I knew that having the two of you together, and also you leaned on each other emotionally.

Yeah we just lost mom.

Yeah we just lost mom.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and you were both in there for each other. And then hearing you talk about one another that was the selling point. And you know, I do have to say because there was there was a consideration, like you know, early on, you know, when I took the job, it's like, Okay, everybody's got a podcast, right, it's like running dough, yeah, media or wherever, you know, listen to my podcast, and and you know, everybody sort of takes that opportunity to put themselves out there right and and to be you know, to have their own podcast and to be a host and that was never really a consideration for me, especially with this story, because one of the things, you know, when people ask me, you know what, what is sort of one of the overriding thoughts that you have as you're making these stories, and I always say, get out of the way of the story. And again it sounds you know, it sounds cliche, and it probably is. But for me, it was like, you know, if I can get the people that I need to to to open up and to talk, the story is great, and what the hell can I add to it other than putting it together and writing it and sort of shepherding it. But it's it's not my story to tell, So it was never going to be a consideration for me to host it myself. Which is funny because I have come full circle on now with with which we'll talk about later, the set coming out which I'm which I'm hosting. But the other thing was that I absolutely hate my voice, hate love and I to it.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and you were both in there for each other. And then hearing you talk about one another that was the selling point. And you know, I do have to say because there was there was a consideration, like you know, early on, you know, when I took the job, it's like, Okay, everybody's got a podcast, right, it's like running dough, yeah, media or wherever, you know, listen to my podcast, and and you know, everybody sort of takes that opportunity to put themselves out there right and and to be you know, to have their own podcast and to be a host and that was never really a consideration for me, especially with this story, because one of the things, you know, when people ask me, you know what, what is sort of one of the overriding thoughts that you have as you're making these stories, and I always say, get out of the way of the story. And again it sounds you know, it sounds cliche, and it probably is. But for me, it was like, you know, if I can get the people that I need to to to open up and to talk, the story is great, and what the hell can I add to it other than putting it together and writing it and sort of shepherding it. But it's it's not my story to tell, So it was never going to be a consideration for me to host it myself. Which is funny because I have come full circle on now with with which we'll talk about later, the set coming out which I'm which I'm hosting. But the other thing was that I absolutely hate my voice, hate love and I to it.

You're just a perfectionist, Zach, and I have to say that right now and put that out there, like you are a perfectionists because you're a true storyteller and you want to get it one hundred million percent right every single time.

You're just a perfectionist, Zach, and I have to say that right now and put that out there, like you are a perfectionists because you're a true storyteller and you want to get it one hundred million percent right every single time.

That's true to my own detriment something. But in addition to hearing you know, the way the two of you interacted with one another, it was also your voices. I was like, holy shit, your voices are so good and totally ready to do this, And so yeah, we were. We were sort of off and running. But of course at that point I had no idea who was who and how deep the story.

That's true to my own detriment something. But in addition to hearing you know, the way the two of you interacted with one another, it was also your voices. I was like, holy shit, your voices are so good and totally ready to do this, And so yeah, we were. We were sort of off and running. But of course at that point I had no idea who was who and how deep the story.

Would get, right, and you know, talking about that on that level, we and I mean, I'm going to speak for you bet here, and I know she'll chime in. We never thought that our Hodel o'hanna, our Hodel family would sign on, only because Yvette and I have well, I've been much more open than Evett. But our mom, you know, told everyone she ever met her story and wanted to hear other people's stories as well, but everyone else was much more private. So I would love to know how you got our great uncle Steve, our uncle Peace, our uncle Love, our you know uncle Joy, our our aunt f two. Everybody like, how how did that happen?

Would get, right, and you know, talking about that on that level, we and I mean, I'm going to speak for you bet here, and I know she'll chime in. We never thought that our Hodel o'hanna, our Hodel family would sign on, only because Yvette and I have well, I've been much more open than Evett. But our mom, you know, told everyone she ever met her story and wanted to hear other people's stories as well, but everyone else was much more private. So I would love to know how you got our great uncle Steve, our uncle Peace, our uncle Love, our you know uncle Joy, our our aunt f two. Everybody like, how how did that happen?

Well, first of all, when I heard from you that you had uncles named Peace, Love and.

Well, first of all, when I heard from you that you had uncles named Peace, Love and.

Joy, Yeah, that doesn't happen every day myself.

Joy, Yeah, that doesn't happen every day myself.

I grew up in Woodstock, New York.

I grew up in Woodstock, New York.

I mean, and you've never heard of a Peace, Love and Joy.

I mean, and you've never heard of a Peace, Love and Joy.

You know. I know a lot of people with some interesting names, but when I heard that their their names were Peace, Love and Joy, I said, Okay, that's interesting. I at least want to talk to them. That's that's really interesting. But before I even got there, I knew I wanted to speak with Steve, with Uncle Steve Odell, because I knew that in order to tell Fauna's story that you know, the black dahlia had to be a part of it. Absolutely Obviously, that's going to be the thing that people recognize, and it's a trojan horse, really great to tell this bigger story of the family. And I also, with or without Steve, this was always going to be a story about family, because there was no way that I was going to just do a black dahlia story. It had been done so many times. I knew I could bring some level of authenticity to it. But if it were just about the black Dallia, it was going to be viewed as something sensational and you know, capitalizing on this gruesome, unsolved murder. And I did not want that, Yeah, And I think that that's what we connected on for sure. And I think when I when I told you that I really wanted to tell the story of the family. You know, my sort of entry point was who would give away this baby to, you know, to a family in Sparks, Nevada, Nevada, a black family and tell them that she's black when she wasn't and put her through this turmoil of having no idea who she was? And you know what is that all about? Like why why would that happen? And you know you mentioned the onion analogy before, and it's it's it's like, once you start asking that first question, you're in the rabbit hole.

You know. I know a lot of people with some interesting names, but when I heard that their their names were Peace, Love and Joy, I said, Okay, that's interesting. I at least want to talk to them. That's that's really interesting. But before I even got there, I knew I wanted to speak with Steve, with Uncle Steve Odell, because I knew that in order to tell Fauna's story that you know, the black dahlia had to be a part of it. Absolutely Obviously, that's going to be the thing that people recognize, and it's a trojan horse, really great to tell this bigger story of the family. And I also, with or without Steve, this was always going to be a story about family, because there was no way that I was going to just do a black dahlia story. It had been done so many times. I knew I could bring some level of authenticity to it. But if it were just about the black Dallia, it was going to be viewed as something sensational and you know, capitalizing on this gruesome, unsolved murder. And I did not want that, Yeah, And I think that that's what we connected on for sure. And I think when I when I told you that I really wanted to tell the story of the family. You know, my sort of entry point was who would give away this baby to, you know, to a family in Sparks, Nevada, Nevada, a black family and tell them that she's black when she wasn't and put her through this turmoil of having no idea who she was? And you know what is that all about? Like why why would that happen? And you know you mentioned the onion analogy before, and it's it's it's like, once you start asking that first question, you're in the rabbit hole.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and the Black Dahlia is a whole other, enormous rabbit hole that you know. It's like, you know, once you go in, you can never really get out. And in fact, once you see the pictures of Elizabeth Short, it's hard to get that out of your mind.

Yeah, and the Black Dahlia is a whole other, enormous rabbit hole that you know. It's like, you know, once you go in, you can never really get out. And in fact, once you see the pictures of Elizabeth Short, it's hard to get that out of your mind.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so in telling the family story, I knew that I wanted to incorporate this investigation. And if I'm telling the family story and the investigation, I have to have Steve Hodell, who literally wrote the book on the investigation.

And so in telling the family story, I knew that I wanted to incorporate this investigation. And if I'm telling the family story and the investigation, I have to have Steve Hodell, who literally wrote the book on the investigation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and is of course part of the family. I mean, the idea of a son investigating his own father and the most famous unsolved murder in American history is that alone is enough for a massive story, and then you incorporate all of these other things that we found out. So I knew that I really wanted to get to Steve.

Yeah, and is of course part of the family. I mean, the idea of a son investigating his own father and the most famous unsolved murder in American history is that alone is enough for a massive story, and then you incorporate all of these other things that we found out. So I knew that I really wanted to get to Steve.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so once I got Steve, I spoke with Love, and Love was generous enough to say that he would do it. And Fauna number two, Deborah Elizabeth Fauna, she was difficult at first because you know, obviously her story is so personal and so devasting, and she wasn't sure that she wanted to tell it. And the last thing that I wanted to do was trigger her by digging into her tast and re traumatize her. Yeah, And I was really really sensitive to that. And so you know, I told everybody, look, I would love to have you all, and I don't want anybody else speaking about you or telling your story other than yourselves. Peace and Joy were the last to come around. And you know, once there was that agreement, I knew it was going to be special because I knew I knew that there was a story that none of them had told that. You know, I was hoping to provide this forum to maybe have some sort of catharsists or to be able to speak about what they'd been through and have people hear it and let them know that they were fans of theirs. And you know, and I think that that's you know, I never offer anybody any money. I've never done that once. Yeah, I don't offer anything other than you can finally tell your story, you know, and people are people are going to listen.

And so once I got Steve, I spoke with Love, and Love was generous enough to say that he would do it. And Fauna number two, Deborah Elizabeth Fauna, she was difficult at first because you know, obviously her story is so personal and so devasting, and she wasn't sure that she wanted to tell it. And the last thing that I wanted to do was trigger her by digging into her tast and re traumatize her. Yeah, And I was really really sensitive to that. And so you know, I told everybody, look, I would love to have you all, and I don't want anybody else speaking about you or telling your story other than yourselves. Peace and Joy were the last to come around. And you know, once there was that agreement, I knew it was going to be special because I knew I knew that there was a story that none of them had told that. You know, I was hoping to provide this forum to maybe have some sort of catharsists or to be able to speak about what they'd been through and have people hear it and let them know that they were fans of theirs. And you know, and I think that that's you know, I never offer anybody any money. I've never done that once. Yeah, I don't offer anything other than you can finally tell your story, you know, and people are people are going to listen.

There's power in that, you know, going into that room with all of us, it was cathartic, you know at that moment in time. You know, we had never done that before, so that, you know, was a blessing for all of us. But like you just said, everybody will continue to live their lives and tell their own story and in whatever way that they choose to. We do know that, you know, by doing Root of Evil, there was so much There was so much there that was left on the cutting room floor, right, Zach, And we really need to jump into that.

There's power in that, you know, going into that room with all of us, it was cathartic, you know at that moment in time. You know, we had never done that before, so that, you know, was a blessing for all of us. But like you just said, everybody will continue to live their lives and tell their own story and in whatever way that they choose to. We do know that, you know, by doing Root of Evil, there was so much There was so much there that was left on the cutting room floor, right, Zach, And we really need to jump into that.

Should we start with a six hour interview I did with with the two of you that I think I ended up using about three minutes of yes, because once you were, once you were narrating, I was like, Okay, well you know this is going to be even better with your narration.

Should we start with a six hour interview I did with with the two of you that I think I ended up using about three minutes of yes, because once you were, once you were narrating, I was like, Okay, well you know this is going to be even better with your narration.

So I think it's really important.

So I think it's really important.

I want to take the opportunity to say this because Zach, what you shared, you know about the family, Yvet and I have promised the Hotels that we would never speak for them moving on in the future. But with all of the publicity and everything, you know you're with us, we did, doctor Phil, doctor Oz that today show all the things. I do want to take this opportunity to say that I learned so much in that process because I realized that what our family the Hotels went through is not my story to tell, and they chose to share their story with us, with the world, and anything I've ever said publicly, I just want them and everyone to know that I never ever, ever intentionally wanted to hurt any of them ever.

I want to take the opportunity to say this because Zach, what you shared, you know about the family, Yvet and I have promised the Hotels that we would never speak for them moving on in the future. But with all of the publicity and everything, you know you're with us, we did, doctor Phil, doctor Oz that today show all the things. I do want to take this opportunity to say that I learned so much in that process because I realized that what our family the Hotels went through is not my story to tell, and they chose to share their story with us, with the world, and anything I've ever said publicly, I just want them and everyone to know that I never ever, ever intentionally wanted to hurt any of them ever.

And I know that whatever they choose to do, whatever stories they decide to.

And I know that whatever they choose to do, whatever stories they decide to.

Tell, that we will always support them well always, and I want them to have as much healing as we have and success that we've had in everything, and I just want to send them just all love and light always.

Tell, that we will always support them well always, and I want them to have as much healing as we have and success that we've had in everything, and I just want to send them just all love and light always.

So I just really, really really.

So I just really, really really.

Wanted to say that, and you know, at the end of the day, you just have to remember you only get one family, right, I.

Wanted to say that, and you know, at the end of the day, you just have to remember you only get one family, right, I.

Want to do the same Rasia. I spoke about those relationships, and you know, I know that that some people are you know, might be more private or or or just sort of want to move on, and I respect that, and I have nothing but love for everybody in the Hodel family, those who participated in those who didn't, and to have have trusted me with their stories. You know, it's a scary thing. It's a really it can be a really scary thing to put yourself out there like that, and it takes an insane amount of courage to do that. Absolutely, the bottom line is that all of you are such incredible people in every way, and so yeah, I mean it all starts from there, and then everything else, you know, god willing can fall into place, and of course it doesn't always because they're messy family dynamics, but it's an ongoing process, right.

Want to do the same Rasia. I spoke about those relationships, and you know, I know that that some people are you know, might be more private or or or just sort of want to move on, and I respect that, and I have nothing but love for everybody in the Hodel family, those who participated in those who didn't, and to have have trusted me with their stories. You know, it's a scary thing. It's a really it can be a really scary thing to put yourself out there like that, and it takes an insane amount of courage to do that. Absolutely, the bottom line is that all of you are such incredible people in every way, and so yeah, I mean it all starts from there, and then everything else, you know, god willing can fall into place, and of course it doesn't always because they're messy family dynamics, but it's an ongoing process, right.

Yeah, if you think about it, like what family has been in a room altogether, airing all the dirty laundry, all the dirty skeletons, all the secrets. With an award winning podcast creator and director and all these microphones.

Yeah, if you think about it, like what family has been in a room altogether, airing all the dirty laundry, all the dirty skeletons, all the secrets. With an award winning podcast creator and director and all these microphones.

I mean, you could have stopped that getting together in a room because very few.

I mean, you could have stopped that getting together in a room because very few.

Right I was going to say that exactly, I would say, very few have ever done that. And you know, there's been so many, you know, different movies, you know that deals with families, and one side of this family doesn't agree with what the other side of the family does. But the most important lesson I think that both Rush and I learned is you have to respect what other people went through, and you can never walk in their shoes. You can only tell the story from your perspective, your truth.

Right I was going to say that exactly, I would say, very few have ever done that. And you know, there's been so many, you know, different movies, you know that deals with families, and one side of this family doesn't agree with what the other side of the family does. But the most important lesson I think that both Rush and I learned is you have to respect what other people went through, and you can never walk in their shoes. You can only tell the story from your perspective, your truth.

You know.

You know.

And I think you did that and you you directed us in a beautiful way, you know, Zach so And that's why the story was so welcoming to so many.

And I think you did that and you you directed us in a beautiful way, you know, Zach so And that's why the story was so welcoming to so many.

It's hard to distill one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight lives into a podcast where there's there's so much there. But yeah, I mean, just as the two of you took this platform, I mean, you know, I had hoped that it would be a platform for for everybody to sort of run with it in whatever way they chose afterwards. In making it, I knew that it was an incredibly unique, wild story, and we can get a couple of the details sort of you know, moments that I lost my shit where I was like, oh my god, yeah, us too. But you know, you never really know for sure when you're making these things how the audience will respond. But I had a feeling that people would listen because it is such a wild story, but I certainly couldn't have ever anticipated the audience that it would have.

It's hard to distill one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight lives into a podcast where there's there's so much there. But yeah, I mean, just as the two of you took this platform, I mean, you know, I had hoped that it would be a platform for for everybody to sort of run with it in whatever way they chose afterwards. In making it, I knew that it was an incredibly unique, wild story, and we can get a couple of the details sort of you know, moments that I lost my shit where I was like, oh my god, yeah, us too. But you know, you never really know for sure when you're making these things how the audience will respond. But I had a feeling that people would listen because it is such a wild story, but I certainly couldn't have ever anticipated the audience that it would have.

I want to know what was your oh shit moment?

I want to know what was your oh shit moment?

I think my biggest oh shit moment. I decided to put that at the end of episode three. You know, I mentioned before about doing all of this research going into the story, and one of these one of the major topics of research was surrealist art. And I can't remember who I heard it from. Maybe it was maybe it was in Steve's book, I don't remember, but you know, look into Robinson Jeffers because he had a poem called Tomorrow and I read it and I was like, oh my god, this is like, you know, the overriding theme is about incest, and I'm like, okay, this is very you know, this is really strange. And then to find out that he had another poem named Fauna, I was like, holy shit. I mean, I remember like losing sleep a lot during the making of this first sort of the mental piece of wrapping my mind around the Black Dahlia murder and the fact that yeah, yeah, and the pictures and how gruesome it was, and you know, really getting into the details of that. But then the darkness of understanding that George could have named his daughter and had a hand in naming his granddaughter after these poems about.

I think my biggest oh shit moment. I decided to put that at the end of episode three. You know, I mentioned before about doing all of this research going into the story, and one of these one of the major topics of research was surrealist art. And I can't remember who I heard it from. Maybe it was maybe it was in Steve's book, I don't remember, but you know, look into Robinson Jeffers because he had a poem called Tomorrow and I read it and I was like, oh my god, this is like, you know, the overriding theme is about incest, and I'm like, okay, this is very you know, this is really strange. And then to find out that he had another poem named Fauna, I was like, holy shit. I mean, I remember like losing sleep a lot during the making of this first sort of the mental piece of wrapping my mind around the Black Dahlia murder and the fact that yeah, yeah, and the pictures and how gruesome it was, and you know, really getting into the details of that. But then the darkness of understanding that George could have named his daughter and had a hand in naming his granddaughter after these poems about.

Incest because of the surrealist connection.

Incest because of the surrealist connection.

You had this incest trial in nineteen forty nine, yep, And I'm like, how sadistic could you be to do something like that? And so I knew that that would have the same impact on the audience. I mean, I'm pretty jaded at this point, you know. Yeah, but if it rocked me, I'm like, it's going to rock other people. And I remember, you know, that was one of the few times I like went on social media after that episode, dropped on Twitter.

You had this incest trial in nineteen forty nine, yep, And I'm like, how sadistic could you be to do something like that? And so I knew that that would have the same impact on the audience. I mean, I'm pretty jaded at this point, you know. Yeah, but if it rocked me, I'm like, it's going to rock other people. And I remember, you know, that was one of the few times I like went on social media after that episode, dropped on Twitter.

It's the only place you can find Zach Levitt.

It's the only place you can find Zach Levitt.

Yeah, right, Yeah, I'm not a big social media person, And I remember seeing the reaction people's jaws dropped. There were there were like videos of people like, you know, redoing their reactions.

Yeah, right, Yeah, I'm not a big social media person, And I remember seeing the reaction people's jaws dropped. There were there were like videos of people like, you know, redoing their reactions.

Right, and the memes and the gifts.

Right, and the memes and the gifts.

Yeah, yeah, totally. That was That was That might have been one of the biggest moments where I was like, holy shit.

Yeah, yeah, totally. That was That was That might have been one of the biggest moments where I was like, holy shit.

Yeah, And we didn't know that either. We knew that George named Mom, but we didn't know where it came from, not at.

Yeah, And we didn't know that either. We knew that George named Mom, but we didn't know where it came from, not at.

All, Like I didn't yep, well that's where it came from.

All, Like I didn't yep, well that's where it came from.

Yeah, did you know back then that Root of Evil would change the game in podcasting forever?

Yeah, did you know back then that Root of Evil would change the game in podcasting forever?

I thought that it would rest an eight with people because at the end of the day, it's about a family and as Kelly Kelly Hodel, Steve's brother says in one of the episodes, like all families have skeletons if you go back far enough. And I totally believe that to be true. And so, you know, going into this and I think I try to do this in all of the stories that I tell. How can I connect with people broadly? You know, starting with a story that nobody really has had this experience? How can people connect with a story that is just totally foreign to them? Right, if you're interested enough, you'll stick around because it's a fucked up story. But at the end, let's sort of take this story that is my internal story and let's turn it around and sort of push it out there to you the listener. And here's how I dealt with these things. How are you know? If I can do it, you can do it? That sort of thing. And I did want to have a positive message at the end of Root of Evil, and that's what you all delivered so beautifully, which is, you know, if we can get through this trauma, or if we're willing to talk about it, not get through, because you know, it's always a work in progress, but if we can continue to speak about it and be willing to go to these dark places to help you and to help myself by putting it out there, you know, maybe you can do it too. And you know, I had this sort of idealistic idea that, you know, maybe we could help people along the way. And I think ultimately that's what really resonated with people. It wasn't, you know, because you watch you look at the reviews, you look at what people latch onto, and it's not really about the black Dahlia, even though I think we sort of put it out there in the podcast that George Hodell was the killer. That's why I believe I know there are others out there that don't believe that.

I thought that it would rest an eight with people because at the end of the day, it's about a family and as Kelly Kelly Hodel, Steve's brother says in one of the episodes, like all families have skeletons if you go back far enough. And I totally believe that to be true. And so, you know, going into this and I think I try to do this in all of the stories that I tell. How can I connect with people broadly? You know, starting with a story that nobody really has had this experience? How can people connect with a story that is just totally foreign to them? Right, if you're interested enough, you'll stick around because it's a fucked up story. But at the end, let's sort of take this story that is my internal story and let's turn it around and sort of push it out there to you the listener. And here's how I dealt with these things. How are you know? If I can do it, you can do it? That sort of thing. And I did want to have a positive message at the end of Root of Evil, and that's what you all delivered so beautifully, which is, you know, if we can get through this trauma, or if we're willing to talk about it, not get through, because you know, it's always a work in progress, but if we can continue to speak about it and be willing to go to these dark places to help you and to help myself by putting it out there, you know, maybe you can do it too. And you know, I had this sort of idealistic idea that, you know, maybe we could help people along the way. And I think ultimately that's what really resonated with people. It wasn't, you know, because you watch you look at the reviews, you look at what people latch onto, and it's not really about the black Dahlia, even though I think we sort of put it out there in the podcast that George Hodell was the killer. That's why I believe I know there are others out there that don't believe that.

Let's talk about the elephant in the room, shall we, So we want to know the story of what the original ending of episode seven was and what the finale of Root of Evil episode eight was supposed to be.

Let's talk about the elephant in the room, shall we, So we want to know the story of what the original ending of episode seven was and what the finale of Root of Evil episode eight was supposed to be.

Take a deep breath, Sack, take a deep breath.

Take a deep breath, Sack, take a deep breath.

That was a.

That was a.

Difficult moment for me in a lot of ways. So circling back to my first conversation on this project with Sam Sheridan when he mentioned that the two of you had been on twenty three and meters sort of digging around seeing what would come back as far as DNA results. Because of course, your mother, Fauna didn't know who her father was, you know, when you talk talk about the elephant in the room, Not only did she not know who her father was, she had thought for many years that it could have been George Hodell. So not only would he have been her grandfather, but he would have also been her father, which would mean that he would have impregnated his own daughter tomorrow who gave birth the Fauna. And that is not something that is unbelievable because we know that there was an incest trial in Los Angeles in nineteen forty nine, where this well known doctor in La doctor George Hodell, was accused of having incest with his daughter Tomorrow and impregnating her and then getting her an illegal abortion.

Difficult moment for me in a lot of ways. So circling back to my first conversation on this project with Sam Sheridan when he mentioned that the two of you had been on twenty three and meters sort of digging around seeing what would come back as far as DNA results. Because of course, your mother, Fauna didn't know who her father was, you know, when you talk talk about the elephant in the room, Not only did she not know who her father was, she had thought for many years that it could have been George Hodell. So not only would he have been her grandfather, but he would have also been her father, which would mean that he would have impregnated his own daughter tomorrow who gave birth the Fauna. And that is not something that is unbelievable because we know that there was an incest trial in Los Angeles in nineteen forty nine, where this well known doctor in La doctor George Hodell, was accused of having incest with his daughter Tomorrow and impregnating her and then getting her an illegal abortion.

So those are facts, and there were witnesses that ended up recanting even though he was acquitted.

So those are facts, and there were witnesses that ended up recanting even though he was acquitted.

Yes, yes, there was a whole trial as we go through in Root of Evil. So the idea of George impregnating Tomorrow second time is not something that is out of the realm of possibility, right, so we start from there. Okay, who is Mom's father? And so that was something that I thought from the very beginning, if we could answer this, that would be a pretty dramatic way to close out the series. Yeah, so that was always in the back of my mind. I never knew if we would get there or not. But you know, we sort of were off and running with so many other beats of the story, and you know, tracking this piece down and interviewing this one and that one, and then I remember when we first got together the first time in San Francisco. We went on the computer and we went on twenty three and meter and I said, Okay, let's let's do it. Let's see, let's see.

Yes, yes, there was a whole trial as we go through in Root of Evil. So the idea of George impregnating Tomorrow second time is not something that is out of the realm of possibility, right, so we start from there. Okay, who is Mom's father? And so that was something that I thought from the very beginning, if we could answer this, that would be a pretty dramatic way to close out the series. Yeah, so that was always in the back of my mind. I never knew if we would get there or not. But you know, we sort of were off and running with so many other beats of the story, and you know, tracking this piece down and interviewing this one and that one, and then I remember when we first got together the first time in San Francisco. We went on the computer and we went on twenty three and meter and I said, Okay, let's let's do it. Let's see, let's see.

What we got yeah, let's look at it.

What we got yeah, let's look at it.

Yeah, and you guys went on and I had never been on a DNA website up until that moment, and so I didn't really know what I was looking at at first, and I was hoping to get some sort of reaction from from the two of you, like what are we looking at? And it turned out to be a total nothing burger.

Yeah, and you guys went on and I had never been on a DNA website up until that moment, and so I didn't really know what I was looking at at first, and I was hoping to get some sort of reaction from from the two of you, like what are we looking at? And it turned out to be a total nothing burger.

Yeah, we didn't know. Yeah, we didn't know. Right, We had no clue. Is there so many half siblings all the thing? Yeah, it was a lot.

Yeah, we didn't know. Yeah, we didn't know. Right, We had no clue. Is there so many half siblings all the thing? Yeah, it was a lot.

Yeah, it was more like you might be related to this person, you might have this background in your DNA. But it certainly wasn't going to answer the question of was George Odell Fauna's father? Right, was not going to answer that.

Yeah, it was more like you might be related to this person, you might have this background in your DNA. But it certainly wasn't going to answer the question of was George Odell Fauna's father? Right, was not going to answer that.

There was no definitive answer. Yeah, not without somebody analyzing all that data.

There was no definitive answer. Yeah, not without somebody analyzing all that data.

So we go through. I am writing the episodes and putting them together. We're, you know, we're we're building the you know, the final product. And there was always this idea in my mind. I remember asking the two of you, when was the last time you were in the same room with your uncles and your aunt, and you said, all of us together, it's been.

So we go through. I am writing the episodes and putting them together. We're, you know, we're we're building the you know, the final product. And there was always this idea in my mind. I remember asking the two of you, when was the last time you were in the same room with your uncles and your aunt, and you said, all of us together, it's been.

Decades nineteen eighties.

Decades nineteen eighties.

Probably, yeah, so again sort of having this idealistic approach of like, maybe I can bring the family together and you know, heal some wounds and put things back together for them. I mean, you know, I had these noble intentions. Maybe I was naive, and I certainly didn't you know, I didn't live the lives that any any of the Hodell family has. So, but everybody was into it. Everybody agreed, and I knew one way or another that it was going to be a powerful moment. It was.

Probably, yeah, so again sort of having this idealistic approach of like, maybe I can bring the family together and you know, heal some wounds and put things back together for them. I mean, you know, I had these noble intentions. Maybe I was naive, and I certainly didn't you know, I didn't live the lives that any any of the Hodell family has. So, but everybody was into it. Everybody agreed, and I knew one way or another that it was going to be a powerful moment. It was.

It was very powerful.

It was very powerful.

It was everybody was crying in the room. I was crying everybody. I could almost start tearing up thinking about it right now, honestly.

It was everybody was crying in the room. I was crying everybody. I could almost start tearing up thinking about it right now, honestly.

I mean too. Yeah.

I mean too. Yeah.

So we put a pin in the twenty three and me thing, Okay, we'll pull up out. Literally the day before we were going to record that in the room with all of us together, my producer found out that we could take Fauna's DNA profile, which you had also uploaded. I should have mentioned that earlier. We weren't just looking at your DNA profiles.

So we put a pin in the twenty three and me thing, Okay, we'll pull up out. Literally the day before we were going to record that in the room with all of us together, my producer found out that we could take Fauna's DNA profile, which you had also uploaded. I should have mentioned that earlier. We weren't just looking at your DNA profiles.

We had moms.

We had moms.

We were looking at Mom's DNA profile, which told her her ethnic background and that kind of thing. But we had this digital DNA profile and if we uploaded it to this other website, it would tell you if you were a product of incest, and so we didn't need the answer of okay, it will tell you that George Hodell is your father. But if if the results come back yes you are a product of incest, we know who the father is. It's George, right. We literally the day before we were set to record, Lloyd says, I found this website and I spoke to and you know, I'm being crazy, I'm like, okay, speak to the person it runs it, just to make sure. I was like, look, I'm not going to do this if we're not one thousand percent sure that this is authentic and not some you know, money grab on the internet or whatever. And you know, I just I wasn't going to fuck with everybody like that. You know, this is your lives and it had to be accurate. And so Lloyd spoke with this woman who is like the foremost DNA expert, and I got on the phone with the two of them and I was able to authenticate it and Okay, this is this is what we need to do, because again, like you know, talking about whether it's surrealist art or these other facets of the story. Okay, now now I'm looking at DNA and these scientific results that I don't understand. How can I understand that? So she walked me through it and I said, Okay, we now know that if we just click enter on this website we will have these results. And I was like, holy shit, holy shit, holy.

We were looking at Mom's DNA profile, which told her her ethnic background and that kind of thing. But we had this digital DNA profile and if we uploaded it to this other website, it would tell you if you were a product of incest, and so we didn't need the answer of okay, it will tell you that George Hodell is your father. But if if the results come back yes you are a product of incest, we know who the father is. It's George, right. We literally the day before we were set to record, Lloyd says, I found this website and I spoke to and you know, I'm being crazy, I'm like, okay, speak to the person it runs it, just to make sure. I was like, look, I'm not going to do this if we're not one thousand percent sure that this is authentic and not some you know, money grab on the internet or whatever. And you know, I just I wasn't going to fuck with everybody like that. You know, this is your lives and it had to be accurate. And so Lloyd spoke with this woman who is like the foremost DNA expert, and I got on the phone with the two of them and I was able to authenticate it and Okay, this is this is what we need to do, because again, like you know, talking about whether it's surrealist art or these other facets of the story. Okay, now now I'm looking at DNA and these scientific results that I don't understand. How can I understand that? So she walked me through it and I said, Okay, we now know that if we just click enter on this website we will have these results. And I was like, holy shit, holy shit, holy.

Shit, holy shit, holy shit, holy shit, holy.

Shit, holy shit, holy shit, holy shit, holy.

Shit, because we're all going to be in the room tomorrow together. And nobody wanted it to be George Hodell for obvious reasons. You never want that to be your family history. I mean, it's awful.

Shit, because we're all going to be in the room tomorrow together. And nobody wanted it to be George Hodell for obvious reasons. You never want that to be your family history. I mean, it's awful.

I didn't want it, but I thought it with every part of my being that he was the father, right, and we know everyone knows that I did not, But still you still want confirmation regardless. Yeah.

I didn't want it, but I thought it with every part of my being that he was the father, right, and we know everyone knows that I did not, But still you still want confirmation regardless. Yeah.

Absolutely, And to everybody's credit, you were all willing to, you know, to be a witness to that and to go through with it, as scary as it is. I mean, god, you know, finding out if this guy that you know was a monster could have been the father of your mother. Yeah, so yeah, going into it with anxiety, trepidation, you know, all of those feelings, but also knowing like if we're going to do this, let's do it. Let's do it. You've all put your lives out there and this is a big moment that everybody wants to hear.

Absolutely, And to everybody's credit, you were all willing to, you know, to be a witness to that and to go through with it, as scary as it is. I mean, god, you know, finding out if this guy that you know was a monster could have been the father of your mother. Yeah, so yeah, going into it with anxiety, trepidation, you know, all of those feelings, but also knowing like if we're going to do this, let's do it. Let's do it. You've all put your lives out there and this is a big moment that everybody wants to hear.

So did you know the day before? Did you know before we did it in the recording? He did, didn't you, Zach?

So did you know the day before? Did you know before we did it in the recording? He did, didn't you, Zach?

So I will tell you that we put it in the day before and the results came back while everybody was setting up in the room.

So I will tell you that we put it in the day before and the results came back while everybody was setting up in the room.