Justin is the full package. He's handsome, he's smart, he's the life of the party. But now well into his thirties, he's never had a boyfriend. Not only that, he's never been on a date. This is Exit Interview.

Justin is the full package. He's handsome, he's smart, he's the life of the party. But now well into his thirties, he's never had a boyfriend. Not only that, he's never been on a date. This is Exit Interview.

Hi, I'm Ushu and I'm Julie Kraftchik.

Hi, I'm Ushu and I'm Julie Kraftchik.

We are active daters turned dating sociologists. We have this other podcast called Datable where we've spent years exploring everything from attachment styles you all love that to sex parties some of y'all love that too. And now we're taking our dating advice to a whole new level here on Exit Interview.

We are active daters turned dating sociologists. We have this other podcast called Datable where we've spent years exploring everything from attachment styles you all love that to sex parties some of y'all love that too. And now we're taking our dating advice to a whole new level here on Exit Interview.

And if you've been listening to the show so far, you know the drill. But for anyone new, we have our data that we're featuring that's wondering what is going on in my love life? Why aren't things clicking the way I want them to? And we talked to their old flames, their exes to really go into what is happening for them.

And if you've been listening to the show so far, you know the drill. But for anyone new, we have our data that we're featuring that's wondering what is going on in my love life? Why aren't things clicking the way I want them to? And we talked to their old flames, their exes to really go into what is happening for them.

Yeah, and today we're doing something a little bit special because we're talking to someone who doesn't have any excess at all.

Yeah, and today we're doing something a little bit special because we're talking to someone who doesn't have any excess at all.

I think a lot of people can relate to this. At a certain age, you feel like you should have had more data and relationship history than maybe you do, and we can really get in our heads on this, like ido. For me, I was definitely a bit of a late bloomer. I probably didn't really start dating to like my late twenties, and it was something you held onto like there's something kind of missing for me. And we talked to datas before, like how do you not make this your narrative?

I think a lot of people can relate to this. At a certain age, you feel like you should have had more data and relationship history than maybe you do, and we can really get in our heads on this, like ido. For me, I was definitely a bit of a late bloomer. I probably didn't really start dating to like my late twenties, and it was something you held onto like there's something kind of missing for me. And we talked to datas before, like how do you not make this your narrative?

And yeah, the narrative is what defines us. And once we live in that narrative, it's hard to get out.

And yeah, the narrative is what defines us. And once we live in that narrative, it's hard to get out.

Yeah, you know, it's hard because I feel like dating and relationships is so central in our culture. And I do remember there were times that I would, you know, want to be in something just to have something to talk about with my friends. It was it because I actually wanted a relationship. It's that I didn't want to fail left out.

Yeah, you know, it's hard because I feel like dating and relationships is so central in our culture. And I do remember there were times that I would, you know, want to be in something just to have something to talk about with my friends. It was it because I actually wanted a relationship. It's that I didn't want to fail left out.

But also, you're not alone in this now. When I moved to San Francisco, I was shocked by the amount of people in their thirties who had never been a relationship. But it made so much sense San Francisco. These big cities attract people who prioritize their careers, prioritize their life experiences and maybe not their love life.

But also, you're not alone in this now. When I moved to San Francisco, I was shocked by the amount of people in their thirties who had never been a relationship. But it made so much sense San Francisco. These big cities attract people who prioritize their careers, prioritize their life experiences and maybe not their love life.

And you know, we all have had relationship experience. It might not be romantic, but we all relate to people every day. We have friends, we have family, we have coworkers. All that is relational experience and we can't forget that. How do we start to gravitate and hold on to all the experiences of relationships we've had.

And you know, we all have had relationship experience. It might not be romantic, but we all relate to people every day. We have friends, we have family, we have coworkers. All that is relational experience and we can't forget that. How do we start to gravitate and hold on to all the experiences of relationships we've had.

Which brings us to our guest today. Justin has a heart of pure gold. When we first spoke to him, we fell in love with him, but he wasn't sure he would be a good fit for Exit inter since he's never been on a date, he claims, and he didn't have any old flames for us to talk to. But we loved him so much that we couldn't pass up on this opportunity to help him out. And so we customize this episode for his particular situation, and we have some really fun surprises for him along the way. So lease welcome Justin.

Which brings us to our guest today. Justin has a heart of pure gold. When we first spoke to him, we fell in love with him, but he wasn't sure he would be a good fit for Exit inter since he's never been on a date, he claims, and he didn't have any old flames for us to talk to. But we loved him so much that we couldn't pass up on this opportunity to help him out. And so we customize this episode for his particular situation, and we have some really fun surprises for him along the way. So lease welcome Justin.

All right, Okay, thank you for being on.

All right, Okay, thank you for being on.

The Exit Interview. Thank you for being part of this experiment and experience intrigue. Here's what we know about you in a nutshell. You are a perpetually single, gay man living in Austin, Texas. You are surrounded by friends who absolutely adore you. You proclaim that you've never been on a date, and despite trying your best on dating apps, you have been ghosted a lot and can't get anyone to stick around. You now live in Austin, but grew up in a tiny town in Tennessee where coming out and finding self love was a challenge. We know that you are an extremely giving person, with an infectious warmth about you and a gorgeous beard, and you are dying to figure out what is getting in the way of actual dates and deeper connections with men. We're going to hear from the people in your life who know you very well, and we want to decode the big mystery of why can't justin get a date?

The Exit Interview. Thank you for being part of this experiment and experience intrigue. Here's what we know about you in a nutshell. You are a perpetually single, gay man living in Austin, Texas. You are surrounded by friends who absolutely adore you. You proclaim that you've never been on a date, and despite trying your best on dating apps, you have been ghosted a lot and can't get anyone to stick around. You now live in Austin, but grew up in a tiny town in Tennessee where coming out and finding self love was a challenge. We know that you are an extremely giving person, with an infectious warmth about you and a gorgeous beard, and you are dying to figure out what is getting in the way of actual dates and deeper connections with men. We're going to hear from the people in your life who know you very well, and we want to decode the big mystery of why can't justin get a date?

What are you hoping to get out of today?

What are you hoping to get out of today?

I'm hoping, you know, talking to two experts, that I can let the wall down a little bit, because I really had to teach myself really, I mean, growing up a small town. There was one other gay guy.

I'm hoping, you know, talking to two experts, that I can let the wall down a little bit, because I really had to teach myself really, I mean, growing up a small town. There was one other gay guy.

In my school, well that you know of that I know, yes.

In my school, well that you know of that I know, yes.

He was openly gay, but at that time I just wasn't ready for that. He was like out in loud and proud when we were in high school and I didn't come out till I was twenty three. So I'm hoping, you know, you guys dissected and just helped me feel a little bit more comfortable. And you know, I'm not looking to get married tomorrow, but I went like to date and I do want to, you know, have kids and stuff like that. So you know, I'm hoping that whatever you guys tell me, I'm going to take it, receive it, and use.

He was openly gay, but at that time I just wasn't ready for that. He was like out in loud and proud when we were in high school and I didn't come out till I was twenty three. So I'm hoping, you know, you guys dissected and just helped me feel a little bit more comfortable. And you know, I'm not looking to get married tomorrow, but I went like to date and I do want to, you know, have kids and stuff like that. So you know, I'm hoping that whatever you guys tell me, I'm going to take it, receive it, and use.

It, so love it. Well dissect we will.

It, so love it. Well dissect we will.

So let's go back to younger justin when you were ready to come out. How did that go?

So let's go back to younger justin when you were ready to come out. How did that go?

I do like a tour, So I was going around so when people like that, I was getting exactly what I was doing. And I told one of my really good friends and it was about fifteen minutes from leaving her she put it on Facebook.

I do like a tour, So I was going around so when people like that, I was getting exactly what I was doing. And I told one of my really good friends and it was about fifteen minutes from leaving her she put it on Facebook.

Oh shit, yeah, yeah.

Oh shit, yeah, yeah.

Off at that moment actually, And so I didn't really get to have that, you know, coming out on my own.

Off at that moment actually, And so I didn't really get to have that, you know, coming out on my own.

Wow, I can't believe that happened to you. I'm so sorry. Let's try to break this down. Then, you've never had a romantic relationship, is that correct?

Wow, I can't believe that happened to you. I'm so sorry. Let's try to break this down. Then, you've never had a romantic relationship, is that correct?

That is correct? Have I been in love?

That is correct? Have I been in love?

Yes, Okay, okay, I think that.

Yes, Okay, okay, I think that.

That person, well, I know that person just wasn't ready. I would say that yes, I was in love, and I think my friends that were around at that period of time and saw the interaction between us would say the same. And he also did say he loved me.

That person, well, I know that person just wasn't ready. I would say that yes, I was in love, and I think my friends that were around at that period of time and saw the interaction between us would say the same. And he also did say he loved me.

So that wasn't a romantic relationship.

So that wasn't a romantic relationship.

It never ever got physical any other than holding hands.

It never ever got physical any other than holding hands.

So you're in love, but you're not dating. Like, what was kind of the reasons why things didn't progress.

So you're in love, but you're not dating. Like, what was kind of the reasons why things didn't progress.

Well, he had a girlfriend. Okay, that's a major indicator out there. So we actually met at work, but he got really touching feely with me, and so I was like, okay, are we dating? Do you like me that way? And then we had the conversation and he was just like, I'm not gay.

Well, he had a girlfriend. Okay, that's a major indicator out there. So we actually met at work, but he got really touching feely with me, and so I was like, okay, are we dating? Do you like me that way? And then we had the conversation and he was just like, I'm not gay.

Okay, Wow, So I was really in love with him. Wow, this whole never been on a date, Like, how do you define a date?

Okay, Wow, So I was really in love with him. Wow, this whole never been on a date, Like, how do you define a date?

A date is actually if we're going out and we both are stating this is a date. So if he asked me, let's go to dinner, if this is a date, that's what I defined as a date.

A date is actually if we're going out and we both are stating this is a date. So if he asked me, let's go to dinner, if this is a date, that's what I defined as a date.

We talked to people. Everyone was like Justin actually goes on quite a lot of dates.

We talked to people. Everyone was like Justin actually goes on quite a lot of dates.

So many days, said too many dates.

So many days, said too many dates.

I don't know what they said that now.

I don't know what they said that now.

So we were just confused, basically.

So we were just confused, basically.

Yeah, no, it's definitely not so the apps have been used.

Yeah, no, it's definitely not so the apps have been used.

We're already seeing some of the patterns come out, which is like around labels and identity, and it sounds like what happened to you nine years ago. You were already trying to get take back your narrative about your identity and you were in love with someone who was not even close to that yet, right, So now you're on this journey to really coming into your own and that's what we're hearing from your friends that you've put on this list for us to reach out to.

We're already seeing some of the patterns come out, which is like around labels and identity, and it sounds like what happened to you nine years ago. You were already trying to get take back your narrative about your identity and you were in love with someone who was not even close to that yet, right, So now you're on this journey to really coming into your own and that's what we're hearing from your friends that you've put on this list for us to reach out to.

We're gonna start with the first one of your friends, and we talked to Kanisha, who's even more than a friend. She is your cousin. She is eleven years older than you had almost raised you. Can you tell us a little about your relationship with Kanisha and why you chose her as one of your exit interview participants.

We're gonna start with the first one of your friends, and we talked to Kanisha, who's even more than a friend. She is your cousin. She is eleven years older than you had almost raised you. Can you tell us a little about your relationship with Kanisha and why you chose her as one of your exit interview participants.

Absolutely, I mean there's only a few of my family members that I talked to. I actually have talked to her twice today. Okay, so I definite want use her because this is important to me. So I wanted you guys to talk to people who I knew would give you all the tea even if I didn't want them to.

Absolutely, I mean there's only a few of my family members that I talked to. I actually have talked to her twice today. Okay, so I definite want use her because this is important to me. So I wanted you guys to talk to people who I knew would give you all the tea even if I didn't want them to.

Oh she did.

Oh she did.

Without further ado, let's get into it with Kadishah.

Without further ado, let's get into it with Kadishah.

We're more than friends of we're cousins. So I've known him his entire life.

We're more than friends of we're cousins. So I've known him his entire life.

Oh my goodness, So you have some good insights for us, then yes, So from your expert opinion, what's going on in terms of dating life or lack thereof dating life for Justin?

Oh my goodness, So you have some good insights for us, then yes, So from your expert opinion, what's going on in terms of dating life or lack thereof dating life for Justin?

To be honest, I have no idea. When I tell you, he's probably the most caring, loving, compassionate individual. People are automatically drawn to him. We were just walking San Antonio on the river Walk and.

To be honest, I have no idea. When I tell you, he's probably the most caring, loving, compassionate individual. People are automatically drawn to him. We were just walking San Antonio on the river Walk and.

People would approach you like.

People would approach you like.

He has this aura about him that people just like are drawn too. And when he comes to visit me, his app will be blowing up. My app doesn't go off like that.

He has this aura about him that people just like are drawn too. And when he comes to visit me, his app will be blowing up. My app doesn't go off like that.

So his app is like he's getting a ton of batches, but none of them go to dates.

So his app is like he's getting a ton of batches, but none of them go to dates.

These people just want the hook up, to which he doesn't all want participating. He's like, I want to go on a date. But he is a giver by nature. He's very nurturing by nature, and somehow he's drawn to people who are really projects who he feels like they need him, and they may need him, but then where's the line between need and use? And so you have to be very aware of like are these people? Will these people reciprocate when you need them? And I think that's what he's finding. Not all people reciprocate on the same level that he does, because he'll literally give you the shirt off his back when he doesn't have it to give.

These people just want the hook up, to which he doesn't all want participating. He's like, I want to go on a date. But he is a giver by nature. He's very nurturing by nature, and somehow he's drawn to people who are really projects who he feels like they need him, and they may need him, but then where's the line between need and use? And so you have to be very aware of like are these people? Will these people reciprocate when you need them? And I think that's what he's finding. Not all people reciprocate on the same level that he does, because he'll literally give you the shirt off his back when he doesn't have it to give.

What's an example that you've seen that you're like, hey, justin this person is borderline using you, but you're not seeing.

What's an example that you've seen that you're like, hey, justin this person is borderline using you, but you're not seeing.

Yet actually, and it's not even relationship wise. I think it was more of his mom okay, And I think that is where the issue started, because he gave her opportunity after opportunity when he should have probably cut her shore a long time ago. And sometimes you know, people just need to feel needed and maybe that is what his thing is.

Yet actually, and it's not even relationship wise. I think it was more of his mom okay, And I think that is where the issue started, because he gave her opportunity after opportunity when he should have probably cut her shore a long time ago. And sometimes you know, people just need to feel needed and maybe that is what his thing is.

Can you recall when was the closest he's ever been to a relationship.

Can you recall when was the closest he's ever been to a relationship.

I think Justin likes someone who's kind of a take charge. He would love someone it's to take charge individual. And there was one guy a few months back that came across that way, but he wasn't upfront, you know, with Justin and a guy was actually in her relationship. But then he began to try and gaslights Justin into thinking like it was Justin was the problem and not him, and I say no, but I think he just tries to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

I think Justin likes someone who's kind of a take charge. He would love someone it's to take charge individual. And there was one guy a few months back that came across that way, but he wasn't upfront, you know, with Justin and a guy was actually in her relationship. But then he began to try and gaslights Justin into thinking like it was Justin was the problem and not him, and I say no, but I think he just tries to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

There's some meaty stuff in there. There's some heavier stuff in there too, But I want to start with the with the lighter comment of your app being blown up all the time. Yeah, and you attracting all kinds of people from everywhere, but it seems like you still can't turn those interactions into dates. Tell us more about that. How much time are you spending on apps like Grinder?

There's some meaty stuff in there. There's some heavier stuff in there too, But I want to start with the with the lighter comment of your app being blown up all the time. Yeah, and you attracting all kinds of people from everywhere, but it seems like you still can't turn those interactions into dates. Tell us more about that. How much time are you spending on apps like Grinder?

Oh, I'm on Grinder and scruff But but no, I seriously, I think, like she said, you know, it's more of this the hookup. I mean, obviously look at the name of the app, so I mean, clearly we know what it's there for. But I'm that I'm just that little, that little country guy that thinks that maybe there might be a friendship or something else that comes out of it. I know it probably sounds so stupid, but you know, there have been some guys that I've actually had conversations with and we never actually hooked up.

Oh, I'm on Grinder and scruff But but no, I seriously, I think, like she said, you know, it's more of this the hookup. I mean, obviously look at the name of the app, so I mean, clearly we know what it's there for. But I'm that I'm just that little, that little country guy that thinks that maybe there might be a friendship or something else that comes out of it. I know it probably sounds so stupid, but you know, there have been some guys that I've actually had conversations with and we never actually hooked up.

I did see your face kind of change a little when Kenisha said that you were drawn to projects. Can you kind of tell us your thoughts on that.

I did see your face kind of change a little when Kenisha said that you were drawn to projects. Can you kind of tell us your thoughts on that.

It's funny that she said that because I always tell my friend some of my friends that are single, that they do that. So clearly, clearly I may be projected because it may.

It's funny that she said that because I always tell my friend some of my friends that are single, that they do that. So clearly, clearly I may be projected because it may.

Be Wow, did we just have our first breakthrough right now?

Be Wow, did we just have our first breakthrough right now?

I mean this is earlier, you guys who just started. I guess she's like, I just like to help people. I guess I am drawn to quote unquote needy broken. I wasn't they say broken, but like, I genuinely want to help people. If I ask you how you doing, don't give me a Geneeric, I'm doing all right. If you're doing horrible, say you know, actually today's horrible, let's talk about it. And I'm but I'm that way with anybody, anybody on at work, even on the app. I've had guys like I had a bad day to me about it, and I think they kind of get like, hold on, you actually cared, And.

I mean this is earlier, you guys who just started. I guess she's like, I just like to help people. I guess I am drawn to quote unquote needy broken. I wasn't they say broken, but like, I genuinely want to help people. If I ask you how you doing, don't give me a Geneeric, I'm doing all right. If you're doing horrible, say you know, actually today's horrible, let's talk about it. And I'm but I'm that way with anybody, anybody on at work, even on the app. I've had guys like I had a bad day to me about it, and I think they kind of get like, hold on, you actually cared, And.

I'm like, yeah, so, and we don't want to suppress that part of your personality because that's incredible, and you know, there are definitely boundaries of how do we maintain that, but also put justin first. We'll keep going on that later. It's going to come up again.

I'm like, yeah, so, and we don't want to suppress that part of your personality because that's incredible, and you know, there are definitely boundaries of how do we maintain that, but also put justin first. We'll keep going on that later. It's going to come up again.

And tell us about this guy.

And tell us about this guy.

From a few months ago that.

From a few months ago that.

You go grab a sip of water.

You go grab a sip of water.

We'll be right.

We'll be right.

Back and tell us about this guy from a few months ago that you know was in an actual relationship. Sounds exactly like what happened with the guy from nine years ago.

Back and tell us about this guy from a few months ago that you know was in an actual relationship. Sounds exactly like what happened with the guy from nine years ago.

This guy was not really the typical time and I go for and he was somebody who actually could hear a conversation, so I was initially drawn to that. It was an anything sexual. We just literally the first day we talked on grinder, we swapped phone numbers and we talked for like two hours. I'm like, okay, I didn't say anything yet because I didn't want to get too giddy after two hours of talking to somebody. And there was one night he said, well let's hang out, you know, can I come over? And I was like sure, And we were sitting here on the couch and at one point like he kind of like shrug for me to come over and like cuddle, and I was like okay, like cool. And then there was one particular day we were on the phone and he had mentioned having a boyfriend, and then to make it worse, he he's like, well, you know, I'm a boyfriend. I said, well, what was off cuddling? He said, oh, you call that cuddling And I was like, well, if two people are laying on the couch against each other with their arms around each other, yeah, that's generally called cuddling. But he said that that's not what it was, and I was like, okay.

This guy was not really the typical time and I go for and he was somebody who actually could hear a conversation, so I was initially drawn to that. It was an anything sexual. We just literally the first day we talked on grinder, we swapped phone numbers and we talked for like two hours. I'm like, okay, I didn't say anything yet because I didn't want to get too giddy after two hours of talking to somebody. And there was one night he said, well let's hang out, you know, can I come over? And I was like sure, And we were sitting here on the couch and at one point like he kind of like shrug for me to come over and like cuddle, and I was like okay, like cool. And then there was one particular day we were on the phone and he had mentioned having a boyfriend, and then to make it worse, he he's like, well, you know, I'm a boyfriend. I said, well, what was off cuddling? He said, oh, you call that cuddling And I was like, well, if two people are laying on the couch against each other with their arms around each other, yeah, that's generally called cuddling. But he said that that's not what it was, and I was like, okay.

Damn, that is definitely GASLDG. Yeah, so we know that you're looking for something serious. Have you tried anything other than apps?

Damn, that is definitely GASLDG. Yeah, so we know that you're looking for something serious. Have you tried anything other than apps?

I haven't really been out that much here in Austin yet all of a sudden, I first moved to year was ntill COVID. Now we're all going back out now. So you know, I've met a few guys at work that are gay and actually are starting to try to make friends because I don't have any gay friends. That's the issue too. That's been a problem for me anytime I've been around any gay guys, and it's gotten awkward. I actually feel like I'm probably gonna sound horrible saying this, but sometimes I feel more comfortable with my straight friends. And the reason is because I've actually been told form a gay guy at a gay club one line that I wasn't gay enough. So I've heard I'm not gay enough. But i also heard I wasn't black enough. So I'm like, okay, well, what is it. I mean, I'm just justin.

I haven't really been out that much here in Austin yet all of a sudden, I first moved to year was ntill COVID. Now we're all going back out now. So you know, I've met a few guys at work that are gay and actually are starting to try to make friends because I don't have any gay friends. That's the issue too. That's been a problem for me anytime I've been around any gay guys, and it's gotten awkward. I actually feel like I'm probably gonna sound horrible saying this, but sometimes I feel more comfortable with my straight friends. And the reason is because I've actually been told form a gay guy at a gay club one line that I wasn't gay enough. So I've heard I'm not gay enough. But i also heard I wasn't black enough. So I'm like, okay, well, what is it. I mean, I'm just justin.

Yes, exactly, Yeah, Okay.

Yes, exactly, Yeah, Okay.

We're going to get to your next exit interview participant here, and this is Kayla. Kayla is someone you consider basically your sister in law because she's married to your best friend. Why is Kayla someone that you wanted us to talk to about your dating life?

We're going to get to your next exit interview participant here, and this is Kayla. Kayla is someone you consider basically your sister in law because she's married to your best friend. Why is Kayla someone that you wanted us to talk to about your dating life?

Kyla and I are very similar. We are straight to the point, and we will give you what you're asking for. And she has been someone that I have just I love her. She and I have just been super super close. Like I said, I call her my sister in law, and so I definitely had to have her input because I just knowed she'd be the perfect person to talk.

Kyla and I are very similar. We are straight to the point, and we will give you what you're asking for. And she has been someone that I have just I love her. She and I have just been super super close. Like I said, I call her my sister in law, and so I definitely had to have her input because I just knowed she'd be the perfect person to talk.

To and she was.

To and she was.

She was and she was definitely straight to the point that yes, oh yeah, yes, she's Yeah.

She was and she was definitely straight to the point that yes, oh yeah, yes, she's Yeah.

Let's let's hear what your quote unquote sister in law had to say.

Let's let's hear what your quote unquote sister in law had to say.

Okay, he's a very loving person. As soon as you start talking to him, you're like, wow, I mean you just there's you click. He has that natural ability. So I mean a lot of people, if they think that he's in for it, they'll they'll shoot their shot with the Justin's a super trusting person, but at the very same time a stand offish person. He's very guarded. He's been through a lot of betrayal and pretty rough stuff, so it's harder for him to be able to get close to people without him automatically assuming that they're gonna, you know, screw him over.

Okay, he's a very loving person. As soon as you start talking to him, you're like, wow, I mean you just there's you click. He has that natural ability. So I mean a lot of people, if they think that he's in for it, they'll they'll shoot their shot with the Justin's a super trusting person, but at the very same time a stand offish person. He's very guarded. He's been through a lot of betrayal and pretty rough stuff, so it's harder for him to be able to get close to people without him automatically assuming that they're gonna, you know, screw him over.

Can you give us some examples of when he's been hurt and betrayed?

Can you give us some examples of when he's been hurt and betrayed?

You know, his mom, there's a lot of you know, distrust and abandonment because a lot of his family was like, oh well I gotta believe mom.

You know, his mom, there's a lot of you know, distrust and abandonment because a lot of his family was like, oh well I gotta believe mom.

Yeah, I felt that.

Yeah, I felt that.

It's a lot. Of course, we're here to talk about Justin's love life. Yes, do you think he knows what he's looking for? Like, do you think he has criteria or do you think it's more just I'm open to any thing.

It's a lot. Of course, we're here to talk about Justin's love life. Yes, do you think he knows what he's looking for? Like, do you think he has criteria or do you think it's more just I'm open to any thing.

He's looking for someone who has the same life goals and you know, for the people that he attracts, they don't have the same life goals. He's looking for, you know, marriage, kids, a trusting relationship, a friendship, one particular perfect person, and unfortunately that that person's not out there. So physically justin you know, is into like someone masculine. He himself, I mean, he has mostly straight friends, little to no gay friends, so he's he's out that he's not in the community, so all of his friends are straight. He's looking for someone that you know, is basically straight but wants to date men.

He's looking for someone who has the same life goals and you know, for the people that he attracts, they don't have the same life goals. He's looking for, you know, marriage, kids, a trusting relationship, a friendship, one particular perfect person, and unfortunately that that person's not out there. So physically justin you know, is into like someone masculine. He himself, I mean, he has mostly straight friends, little to no gay friends, so he's he's out that he's not in the community, so all of his friends are straight. He's looking for someone that you know, is basically straight but wants to date men.

What do you think he's like on dates?

What do you think he's like on dates?

He hasn't been in a relationship before.

He hasn't been in a relationship before.

When you go through you know, the crappy relationships is when you find out what you really want and you know people's red flags when they when they're there. He knows that he's got to get out there. But again, where I think it gets muddled is he doesn't want to be rejected, right. It's that it goes back to that like abandonment and rejection, and he doesn't want that, so he just doesn't He doesn't go out because you know, he hangs out with mostly straight people.

When you go through you know, the crappy relationships is when you find out what you really want and you know people's red flags when they when they're there. He knows that he's got to get out there. But again, where I think it gets muddled is he doesn't want to be rejected, right. It's that it goes back to that like abandonment and rejection, and he doesn't want that, so he just doesn't He doesn't go out because you know, he hangs out with mostly straight people.

Until you get to know him, you won't know that he's gay.

Until you get to know him, you won't know that he's gay.

So he's afraid he doesn't really fit in with the straight community if he goes out into the gay community, doesn't really.

So he's afraid he doesn't really fit in with the straight community if he goes out into the gay community, doesn't really.

Fit in there.

Fit in there.

He's not your typical gay man. So I think again that fear of rejection is just holding him, just holding the bat. As soon as you know, he starts feeling a little bit of you know, hey, I've been there too, I get it, and he dumps.

He's not your typical gay man. So I think again that fear of rejection is just holding him, just holding the bat. As soon as you know, he starts feeling a little bit of you know, hey, I've been there too, I get it, and he dumps.

All of that baggage.

All of that baggage.

He's been through a lot of betrayal and pretty rough stuff, and it's pretty quick.

He's been through a lot of betrayal and pretty rough stuff, and it's pretty quick.

I guess.

I guess.

Kind of what I have a vision in my mind of it being is like Justin's carrying around all this baggage and then somebody's like, hey, I think you know you're carrying it around, let me.

Kind of what I have a vision in my mind of it being is like Justin's carrying around all this baggage and then somebody's like, hey, I think you know you're carrying it around, let me.

Have some of it. And he's like.

Have some of it. And he's like.

Mmm, So there's a lot of trauma dumping. That's what it sounds like. If you could set him up with the perfect man, what would this guy be like?

Mmm, So there's a lot of trauma dumping. That's what it sounds like. If you could set him up with the perfect man, what would this guy be like?

A masculine, red haired man. That's what's right.

A masculine, red haired man. That's what's right.

Country boy basically a southern hospitality gentleman who's able to accept justin the way he is, you know, in all of his sass and excitement and baggage. And someone who's gonna stick it in.

Country boy basically a southern hospitality gentleman who's able to accept justin the way he is, you know, in all of his sass and excitement and baggage. And someone who's gonna stick it in.

There, stick it in where.

There, stick it in where.

Oh god, someone who's just gonna stick it in there's.

Oh god, someone who's just gonna stick it in there's.

Gonna stick it in there. And also he's going to stick in there with them.

Gonna stick it in there. And also he's going to stick in there with them.

If you had to give justin one piece of advice, what would it be.

If you had to give justin one piece of advice, what would it be.

If you don't put yourself out there, you can't find what you're looking for. You just nobody's going to be able to sincerely accept you until you put it out there. He wants so badly for people to love.

If you don't put yourself out there, you can't find what you're looking for. You just nobody's going to be able to sincerely accept you until you put it out there. He wants so badly for people to love.

Him, So we're starting to adence of patterns, that's for sure. Yeah, what are your thoughts about this kind of trauma dumping that was brought up?

Him, So we're starting to adence of patterns, that's for sure. Yeah, what are your thoughts about this kind of trauma dumping that was brought up?

She's try right. I mean, like I told you, I love to converse. I love talking and getting to know somebody, and maybe I should spread it out and not the first week because it is a lot.

She's try right. I mean, like I told you, I love to converse. I love talking and getting to know somebody, and maybe I should spread it out and not the first week because it is a lot.

I mean, this is something that comes up time and time again that dators feel like I'm bonding with my date by sharing all my deep dark secrets in my past life, and we see time and time again that's not what actually forms the connection. And I know personally from my own experience, when I used to do that, I would get ghosted. But when I started approaching it more like I'm just gonna have fun on this first date, and yeah, if this person sticks around, there is so much time to get deep and share all about myself. But this definitely is something that we see get in dater's way. So I'm really glad that she was able to call that out.

I mean, this is something that comes up time and time again that dators feel like I'm bonding with my date by sharing all my deep dark secrets in my past life, and we see time and time again that's not what actually forms the connection. And I know personally from my own experience, when I used to do that, I would get ghosted. But when I started approaching it more like I'm just gonna have fun on this first date, and yeah, if this person sticks around, there is so much time to get deep and share all about myself. But this definitely is something that we see get in dater's way. So I'm really glad that she was able to call that out.

Absolutely, And that's why I chose for her to be someone for you to talk to, because I knew that she was gonna give it to you all.

Absolutely, And that's why I chose for her to be someone for you to talk to, because I knew that she was gonna give it to you all.

I do want to balance out her comments here because she did say two things that could seem contradictory, but I do think they are complimentary. So she's saying, don't trauma dump, but also put yourself out there. There are two very different concepts. I think the trauma dumping what that does is that you become defined by your trauma. People know Justin by the trauma that he's been through. But what she was saying is putting yourself out there means who else is justin? Who is justin beyond the trauma? The trauma has defined you up to today, but who is Justin today and then moving forward. That's how I kind of interpreted that. What are your thoughts on putting the holistic Justine out there aside from the trauma?

I do want to balance out her comments here because she did say two things that could seem contradictory, but I do think they are complimentary. So she's saying, don't trauma dump, but also put yourself out there. There are two very different concepts. I think the trauma dumping what that does is that you become defined by your trauma. People know Justin by the trauma that he's been through. But what she was saying is putting yourself out there means who else is justin? Who is justin beyond the trauma? The trauma has defined you up to today, but who is Justin today and then moving forward. That's how I kind of interpreted that. What are your thoughts on putting the holistic Justine out there aside from the trauma?

I'm off here for it and that's honestly. Moving to Texas has helped me do that good. But yeah, I mean, I think that's what I have to do. You. I have to stop talk about the past Justin, and let's talk about the new Justin. Let's talk about the single Justine that's here in Texas, a good career and you know, stop the trauma dumping.

I'm off here for it and that's honestly. Moving to Texas has helped me do that good. But yeah, I mean, I think that's what I have to do. You. I have to stop talk about the past Justin, and let's talk about the new Justin. Let's talk about the single Justine that's here in Texas, a good career and you know, stop the trauma dumping.

I feel like we have more of your friends that we tapped for feedback. You have no shortage of friends, that's.

I feel like we have more of your friends that we tapped for feedback. You have no shortage of friends, that's.

Fell I really know.

Fell I really know.

So next up we have Jordan, who is your old boss and a great friend there and from what we learned, you live together, so it went beyond just a boss relationship, yes, yeah? Or what kind of insight does Jordan have that made you want to choose her?

So next up we have Jordan, who is your old boss and a great friend there and from what we learned, you live together, so it went beyond just a boss relationship, yes, yeah? Or what kind of insight does Jordan have that made you want to choose her?

Living with her and her husband for three years and so just living with them like they we would go out and do stuff and they would see what type of guys I like.

Living with her and her husband for three years and so just living with them like they we would go out and do stuff and they would see what type of guys I like.

Well, let's hear it from Jordan of what she had to say, he's.

Well, let's hear it from Jordan of what she had to say, he's.

A grand person He's a big personality. He's just a grand gesture kind of guy, and he's just got this energy about him that you just want to be near him and you want to do these grand things. You want to go catch a flight with him to New York and walk around Central Park like you just feel like you know you're going to have the best time.

A grand person He's a big personality. He's just a grand gesture kind of guy, and he's just got this energy about him that you just want to be near him and you want to do these grand things. You want to go catch a flight with him to New York and walk around Central Park like you just feel like you know you're going to have the best time.

Do you have an idea of what it may be that is holding.

Do you have an idea of what it may be that is holding.

Him back him it's him getting in his own way tell us more. He's very particular, and a lot of times, because he is so particular, he will close himself off before it's open to the idea. So I don't know how many times we've had things where we're like, just go dry, what's the worst that happens. You kind of expect him to be a guy that's like, yeah, let's go, let's do this adventure. Yeah, But when it comes to his heart, he's he's a lot more guarded. What is he particular about everything? Habits, looks, gosh. I feel like we've been places where he's like, is that guy listening to that kind of music?

Him back him it's him getting in his own way tell us more. He's very particular, and a lot of times, because he is so particular, he will close himself off before it's open to the idea. So I don't know how many times we've had things where we're like, just go dry, what's the worst that happens. You kind of expect him to be a guy that's like, yeah, let's go, let's do this adventure. Yeah, But when it comes to his heart, he's he's a lot more guarded. What is he particular about everything? Habits, looks, gosh. I feel like we've been places where he's like, is that guy listening to that kind of music?

And we're like, what does that.

And we're like, what does that.

Have to do anything?

Have to do anything?

I mean, good gosh, man, oh, he drives a toyota what who cares? Because he does have some great prospects he's talked with, But once things start to seem like they're going in a good direction, he finds something. He always thinks that he's going to end up with a redheaded country boy if you don't fall in that. Sometimes I think he kind of closes him out beforehand. I think sometimes he looks for superficial reasons. I think it's to protect himself because of all the hurt he's had.

I mean, good gosh, man, oh, he drives a toyota what who cares? Because he does have some great prospects he's talked with, But once things start to seem like they're going in a good direction, he finds something. He always thinks that he's going to end up with a redheaded country boy if you don't fall in that. Sometimes I think he kind of closes him out beforehand. I think sometimes he looks for superficial reasons. I think it's to protect himself because of all the hurt he's had.

Do you think it would benefit him from just going on more dates, even if they weren't with people that necessarily would lead to marriage and kids, Or do you think it would be better for him as a person to be more selective on who he lets through the pipeline and kind of just go for the people that are like ready.

Do you think it would benefit him from just going on more dates, even if they weren't with people that necessarily would lead to marriage and kids, Or do you think it would be better for him as a person to be more selective on who he lets through the pipeline and kind of just go for the people that are like ready.

I think he needs to look at his definition of date. I think he always wants to have a date that is just this spectacular, whisk you away hot air balloon over Sedona and have this beautiful thing that's this great date. So I think going on more casual dates would be so beneficial for him if he could break through the fact that meeting somebody for coffee is a date. Meeting somebody for drinks one night that counts as a date instead of idealizing it so much.

I think he needs to look at his definition of date. I think he always wants to have a date that is just this spectacular, whisk you away hot air balloon over Sedona and have this beautiful thing that's this great date. So I think going on more casual dates would be so beneficial for him if he could break through the fact that meeting somebody for coffee is a date. Meeting somebody for drinks one night that counts as a date instead of idealizing it so much.

Do you think he's immersed enough into the game culture.

Do you think he's immersed enough into the game culture.

No, no, no, Oh, my gosh, no. I wish he would do more stuff. But I think he's missing a lot of community and he needs people to be around him that know what he's gone through. I don't think he is nearly immersing up. I think he needs more of that.

No, no, no, Oh, my gosh, no. I wish he would do more stuff. But I think he's missing a lot of community and he needs people to be around him that know what he's gone through. I don't think he is nearly immersing up. I think he needs more of that.

Why do you think he's so resistant.

Why do you think he's so resistant.

I think he doesn't want to be seen as like a stereotypical gay man. I think he has some sort of thing in him where he doesn't want this flamboyancy or things like that. And I think he still has it ingrained in him from growing up in smalltown Tennessee, that this is how it's supposed to be, or this is how it is.

I think he doesn't want to be seen as like a stereotypical gay man. I think he has some sort of thing in him where he doesn't want this flamboyancy or things like that. And I think he still has it ingrained in him from growing up in smalltown Tennessee, that this is how it's supposed to be, or this is how it is.

What is some parting feedback you would give him.

What is some parting feedback you would give him.

Be open to all facets of relationships and love. Be open to the idea that it doesn't have to fit in a special little box that you have decided to pursue. There's so much love in the world, Like don't close yourself off just because you want to receive a specific kind.

Be open to all facets of relationships and love. Be open to the idea that it doesn't have to fit in a special little box that you have decided to pursue. There's so much love in the world, Like don't close yourself off just because you want to receive a specific kind.

I wish people could have seen your facial expressions during.

I wish people could have seen your facial expressions during.

That good right, Right, It's a lot but also a lot of the same stuff we've been hearing, right, We're hearing all these patterns.

That good right, Right, It's a lot but also a lot of the same stuff we've been hearing, right, We're hearing all these patterns.

Yeah.

Yeah.

One big theme was this, you know, finding community again, finding belonging and also being comfortable in yourself. And then the second theme is like how you view dates. We asked the question from the very beginning, what do you view as a date? There are limitations if you think dates are these grand gestures where you have to say, well, you go on this date with me.

One big theme was this, you know, finding community again, finding belonging and also being comfortable in yourself. And then the second theme is like how you view dates. We asked the question from the very beginning, what do you view as a date? There are limitations if you think dates are these grand gestures where you have to say, well, you go on this date with me.

I don't know if that so.

I don't know if that so.

That was, but you know, like a huge gesture. Can we get you into a state of going on dates as meet and greets, as these casual hangout They can't be casual hangouts because you're just getting to know someone that you really don't know. It's a what is stopping you from asking people out on more casual dates? Does that scare you?

That was, but you know, like a huge gesture. Can we get you into a state of going on dates as meet and greets, as these casual hangout They can't be casual hangouts because you're just getting to know someone that you really don't know. It's a what is stopping you from asking people out on more casual dates? Does that scare you?

It does?

It does?

Why?

Why?

And I feel like I don't. I think because I am to use some of my phrases I use. I think I'm living in like the little house on the prairie, day, and I think I'm supposed to be sure that's asked.

And I feel like I don't. I think because I am to use some of my phrases I use. I think I'm living in like the little house on the prairie, day, and I think I'm supposed to be sure that's asked.

I'm wondering if that's fear getting in your way though, you know, like she points it out to like, maybe the pickiness is almost a shield right to not let people actually come through. We see this time and time again that a lot of times when you're like kind of waiting or you have these rigid rules, a lot of it's a self protection mechanism and it's really fear driven, and honestly, the biggest danger is not doing anything at all and not taking these risks. So yeah, I mean, also just to add one more thing, redheads, but we're talking about one to two percent of the population. Then you gaybed like, and I think it's important to stay open, but it can't just be like I'm gonna stay open, but I'm secretly hoping for this type that I've given. Right, we need to drop the type.

I'm wondering if that's fear getting in your way though, you know, like she points it out to like, maybe the pickiness is almost a shield right to not let people actually come through. We see this time and time again that a lot of times when you're like kind of waiting or you have these rigid rules, a lot of it's a self protection mechanism and it's really fear driven, and honestly, the biggest danger is not doing anything at all and not taking these risks. So yeah, I mean, also just to add one more thing, redheads, but we're talking about one to two percent of the population. Then you gaybed like, and I think it's important to stay open, but it can't just be like I'm gonna stay open, but I'm secretly hoping for this type that I've given. Right, we need to drop the type.

Absolutely strawberry blonde, you know, close enough.

Absolutely strawberry blonde, you know, close enough.

A little open the funnel a little.

A little open the funnel a little.

You come off extremely confident. People are drawn to you, they trust you, they probably tell you things that they probably shouldn't be telling you. But then we see this other side of justin where there is a lack of confidence. And maybe that's kind of the disconnect, is that you come off so confident, but then when someone wants to see the true justin, you may come off a little closed off or you may you know, kind of shun people away from that. How can we get you more in that confident justin, not just externally but internally to well.

You come off extremely confident. People are drawn to you, they trust you, they probably tell you things that they probably shouldn't be telling you. But then we see this other side of justin where there is a lack of confidence. And maybe that's kind of the disconnect, is that you come off so confident, but then when someone wants to see the true justin, you may come off a little closed off or you may you know, kind of shun people away from that. How can we get you more in that confident justin, not just externally but internally to well.

I mean I have been working towards that, like just being able to look back at all the stuff I've done. I have I have. I moved to New York, I moved back to the sea. I mean often I've done a lot. I'm probably, I don't wanna say probably. I am in like the best position I've been in ever, Yes, you know, financially, Like I've got down here and started working out and lost like thirty pounds, Like it's been a great thing. So like I am working on myself, and I'm working on myself. So now I'm just like all of them have said, like it's got to let my guard down and not all the way, but maybe halfway and start letting some people in. It's just, honestly, it's so scary to do that with my trust issues.

I mean I have been working towards that, like just being able to look back at all the stuff I've done. I have I have. I moved to New York, I moved back to the sea. I mean often I've done a lot. I'm probably, I don't wanna say probably. I am in like the best position I've been in ever, Yes, you know, financially, Like I've got down here and started working out and lost like thirty pounds, Like it's been a great thing. So like I am working on myself, and I'm working on myself. So now I'm just like all of them have said, like it's got to let my guard down and not all the way, but maybe halfway and start letting some people in. It's just, honestly, it's so scary to do that with my trust issues.

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. And I know you've been through a lot of trauma, and it's hard because you've even though you've never been in a relationship quote unquote, it sounds like you have been in a toxic relationship, right, you know, toxic relationships can be family. And what we've seen for patterns with other daters too, is you don't want to make the same mistakes again, and you hold that close to the chat and it's hard to trust, it's hard to open yourselves up. But also for you, it's the balance of not giving everyone a chance either. So I think it's how do you get like really crystal clear of like what's important to you? What are your non negotiables, what are your needs? Like, what does Justin want?

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. And I know you've been through a lot of trauma, and it's hard because you've even though you've never been in a relationship quote unquote, it sounds like you have been in a toxic relationship, right, you know, toxic relationships can be family. And what we've seen for patterns with other daters too, is you don't want to make the same mistakes again, and you hold that close to the chat and it's hard to trust, it's hard to open yourselves up. But also for you, it's the balance of not giving everyone a chance either. So I think it's how do you get like really crystal clear of like what's important to you? What are your non negotiables, what are your needs? Like, what does Justin want?

Definitely hearing them? What two or three others that community. Yeah, we've had conversations and I've never heard of them say that. So that's an eye opener.

Definitely hearing them? What two or three others that community. Yeah, we've had conversations and I've never heard of them say that. So that's an eye opener.

That's great, that's great.

That's great, that's great.

We actually have a surprise special guest. Oh, you know, he's been listening in on this conversation. Has hold tight.

We actually have a surprise special guest. Oh, you know, he's been listening in on this conversation. Has hold tight.

This exit interview will containue in just a moment.

This exit interview will containue in just a moment.

Because Ua and I are hetero women and a lot of your friends are too. We wanted to also provide an opportunity to speak with someone that's been through it himself and has helped other gay men as well, So we have Michael Diorio. So a little bit about Michael. He's a certified life and wellness coach and he's a primary leader of the Gay Men's Brotherhood, a conscious community for gay men to connect with each other on the journey of healing. His specialty is helping gay men overcome the struggles of modern life by cultivating constructive mental habits and developing emotional growth. So we're going to bring on Michael and we want him to be the sounding board for some of this identity community all the aspects that you know, U A and I might not be experts in.

Because Ua and I are hetero women and a lot of your friends are too. We wanted to also provide an opportunity to speak with someone that's been through it himself and has helped other gay men as well, So we have Michael Diorio. So a little bit about Michael. He's a certified life and wellness coach and he's a primary leader of the Gay Men's Brotherhood, a conscious community for gay men to connect with each other on the journey of healing. His specialty is helping gay men overcome the struggles of modern life by cultivating constructive mental habits and developing emotional growth. So we're going to bring on Michael and we want him to be the sounding board for some of this identity community all the aspects that you know, U A and I might not be experts in.

Justin nice to meet you, not to meet you as well. I've been listening and watching this has been a lot of fun. How are you doing today, I'm doing well.

Justin nice to meet you, not to meet you as well. I've been listening and watching this has been a lot of fun. How are you doing today, I'm doing well.

I'm doing well.

I'm doing well.

Thank you Julie for the introduction. So yes, I'm a gay life of monist coach and I specialize in fact on dating, relating sexuality and self confidence. So yeah, I'm really curious today to talk to you specifically about your relationship with your gay identity and the gay community. Okay, all right, So I'm very curious to know. I mean, we talk about having a gay identity. It's not all of who you are. It's a part of who you are, right, So let's acknowledge that it's not the fullness of any of us our sexuality. But at the same time, we all have a relationship with that part of us.

Thank you Julie for the introduction. So yes, I'm a gay life of monist coach and I specialize in fact on dating, relating sexuality and self confidence. So yeah, I'm really curious today to talk to you specifically about your relationship with your gay identity and the gay community. Okay, all right, So I'm very curious to know. I mean, we talk about having a gay identity. It's not all of who you are. It's a part of who you are, right, So let's acknowledge that it's not the fullness of any of us our sexuality. But at the same time, we all have a relationship with that part of us.

Right.

Right.

So, as we're talking about relationships with other people and externalizing get in terms of romantic relationships or friendships, I also wanted to think of your relationship to that gay identity within you. So as you think about that, describe it to me. What is your relationship with your gay identity.

So, as we're talking about relationships with other people and externalizing get in terms of romantic relationships or friendships, I also wanted to think of your relationship to that gay identity within you. So as you think about that, describe it to me. What is your relationship with your gay identity.

I don't be honest with you. I don't I don't know. I think it's kind of like I would like to be able to be out my community more. I think it's just maybe being scared of rejection as well from my own community. Like I said earlier, I think you heard me say I've been told I'm not gay enough and I'm not black enough. So it's kind of like I feel like I've been on this album by myself. So I don't know how to really describe my gay identity to be honest.

I don't be honest with you. I don't I don't know. I think it's kind of like I would like to be able to be out my community more. I think it's just maybe being scared of rejection as well from my own community. Like I said earlier, I think you heard me say I've been told I'm not gay enough and I'm not black enough. So it's kind of like I feel like I've been on this album by myself. So I don't know how to really describe my gay identity to be honest.

Yeah, and I think that's the work right and it's really good for me to hear that you've been going out more what is your than relationship with the gay community.

Yeah, and I think that's the work right and it's really good for me to hear that you've been going out more what is your than relationship with the gay community.

I'm still trying to put myself out there. Like I said that, a couple of guys at work, and then we do have a organization at work that I'm actually joined this week that I didn't even know we have for the gay community, and so I'm hoping to maybe sit in one of their meetings and kind of get familiar with some people and just to know the gay Austen because I'm definitely fined who I am. You know, there was a long time where I was so scared to even know people obviously made those comments. It's still a little bit of being scared and guarded because when you have someone that isn't a community, and it wasn't just one time, it was a couple of times tell you that you're not gay enough, I'm like, well, what does that mean? What do you mean? I'm just thinking justin who happens to be gay as well, so I didn't understand you are gay enough.

I'm still trying to put myself out there. Like I said that, a couple of guys at work, and then we do have a organization at work that I'm actually joined this week that I didn't even know we have for the gay community, and so I'm hoping to maybe sit in one of their meetings and kind of get familiar with some people and just to know the gay Austen because I'm definitely fined who I am. You know, there was a long time where I was so scared to even know people obviously made those comments. It's still a little bit of being scared and guarded because when you have someone that isn't a community, and it wasn't just one time, it was a couple of times tell you that you're not gay enough, I'm like, well, what does that mean? What do you mean? I'm just thinking justin who happens to be gay as well, so I didn't understand you are gay enough.

There's just no there's no negotiation on that you are exactly where you need to be, period. No one can take that away from you, not, I mean, not anybody else. When people say that, I think it's often a projection of their own their own sexuality or their own issues of their own sexuality. So, you know, like like other things, try not to take it too personally. Of course, it's easier said than done. But you get to define your experience as a gay man, you get to define your community, right. One of the things I see a lot of is that gay men tend to think, and it is in the mainstream media, that it's all about God and rainbows and pride and drag queens, which is great, that's absolutely part of it, part of it that that's wonderful. There's also so so much more to it, right, So a question I have for you is where are you mostly engaging with other gay men?

There's just no there's no negotiation on that you are exactly where you need to be, period. No one can take that away from you, not, I mean, not anybody else. When people say that, I think it's often a projection of their own their own sexuality or their own issues of their own sexuality. So, you know, like like other things, try not to take it too personally. Of course, it's easier said than done. But you get to define your experience as a gay man, you get to define your community, right. One of the things I see a lot of is that gay men tend to think, and it is in the mainstream media, that it's all about God and rainbows and pride and drag queens, which is great, that's absolutely part of it, part of it that that's wonderful. There's also so so much more to it, right, So a question I have for you is where are you mostly engaging with other gay men?

Apps? Work with a few that I've met.

Apps? Work with a few that I've met.

Work, Yeah, yeah, apps.

Work, Yeah, yeah, apps.

Apps is a tough one.

Apps is a tough one.

I love the apps, they're great, But the experience that we have of apps is you're going to get a very skewed, let's say skewed experience of what the gay community is because it's highly sexualized. There's a lot more ghosting in there. As we've talked about, people show up very differently, and it's behind the screen. You're not actually interacting with the human. You're interacting with your screen. So as great as it is, I think and you're on the right track, honestly, Justin is finding more of a balance, like use the apps to connect, But then i'd like to tell people ticket off the app if you'd like, somebody take it off the app really quickly, move it to a date. And I think one of the people had said your definition dating might need to change of it too. I think we called it a meeting greed.

I love the apps, they're great, But the experience that we have of apps is you're going to get a very skewed, let's say skewed experience of what the gay community is because it's highly sexualized. There's a lot more ghosting in there. As we've talked about, people show up very differently, and it's behind the screen. You're not actually interacting with the human. You're interacting with your screen. So as great as it is, I think and you're on the right track, honestly, Justin is finding more of a balance, like use the apps to connect, But then i'd like to tell people ticket off the app if you'd like, somebody take it off the app really quickly, move it to a date. And I think one of the people had said your definition dating might need to change of it too. I think we called it a meeting greed.

I love that.

I love that.

Call it an exploratory meeting.

Call it an exploratory meeting.

Yes, yeah, yes, I like that as well.

Yes, yeah, yes, I like that as well.

All meeting greeds, all of these little hurts, all of these little traumas, all these little betrayals. It adds to the story. So you know, that's part of understanding that, hey, here's my identity as a gay man. It's going to have some great parts to it, but there's also going to be some hurt. And you know you mentioned therapy before, which is great healing that and going through that process, but it's also equally important that you start building at the same time, great new experiences of what it is to be a gay man and how you want that to look like. Like that's such a fun, empowering question. What kind of game in do you want to be?

All meeting greeds, all of these little hurts, all of these little traumas, all these little betrayals. It adds to the story. So you know, that's part of understanding that, hey, here's my identity as a gay man. It's going to have some great parts to it, but there's also going to be some hurt. And you know you mentioned therapy before, which is great healing that and going through that process, but it's also equally important that you start building at the same time, great new experiences of what it is to be a gay man and how you want that to look like. Like that's such a fun, empowering question. What kind of game in do you want to be?

I don't know. I guess I've never really asked myself that, Quinn. I always have felt like I just didn't belong And you know, growing up in a small town, I was the only black guy in my circle of friends because the black community didn't really accept me that much. There were a few, but being around you know, other races, I was just accepted more into that. So I just I don't know. I guess it's just you've hit the nail. You've actually got me a loss of words to go back to what some of them has said. I guess that is me being the type of person who looks for projects because they need me. You know, the person needs me, and I need to get up with that.

I don't know. I guess I've never really asked myself that, Quinn. I always have felt like I just didn't belong And you know, growing up in a small town, I was the only black guy in my circle of friends because the black community didn't really accept me that much. There were a few, but being around you know, other races, I was just accepted more into that. So I just I don't know. I guess it's just you've hit the nail. You've actually got me a loss of words to go back to what some of them has said. I guess that is me being the type of person who looks for projects because they need me. You know, the person needs me, and I need to get up with that.

Stop that many revelations.

Stop that many revelations.