Are You a Dating Chameleon? w/ Deborah

Published Apr 27, 2023, 9:00 AM

Deborah is a romantic, through and through. But…maybe, she’s so hungry for love that she molds herself to adapt to whomever she’s dating.  You may remember Deborah from Christofer’s episode, and now she’s back for her very own Exit Interview. Julie Krafchick and Yue Xu of Dateable are ready to help Deborah understand what’s getting in the way of love. Tune in to hear their conversations with several of Deborah’s past flames - all of whom help shed light on Deborah’s struggles with her own sexuality and identity.  Why did Deborah sell her shoes to a stranger? What happened when she moved in with her new boyfriend during COVID? Why does Deborah do so much to conform to the women she’s dating? It’s all here in this week’s Exit Interview. TW: Sexual assault. 


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Episode transcript here —>  https://shorturl.at/efBYZ


Show Credits

Executive Producers:  Yue Xu, Julie Krafchick and Folic Media

Producer:  Abigail Steckler and Little Scorpion Studios

Editor: Jen Jacobs

Creative Producer: Samantha Martin

Coordinator: Katia Kupelian

Casting: Salt & Lime Media



This episode touches upon sexual assault. Please understand that this may be potentially triggering for some.

Debora is a romantic through and through. She's been doing everything she can to find love, but things just aren't working out. She's been exploring her sexuality and figuring out who she is and what she wants. So is Debora actually ready for a relationship? This is Exit Interview. Hi, I'm Julie Kraftchik and I'm Ushu and where active daters turn dating sociologists, Which basically means we're obsessed with all things modern data and on our podcast Datable, we're doing all that we can to get a full picture of what it means to date in today's world.

And through all of it, we've heard this question over and over again. What did my ex think of me? Why did they end things? Where did things go wrong? Normally we can't get answers to these questions, but today, oh we can't.

And on Exit Interview, we feature a guest trying to find love. To help them, we call up their past flames to get all the details of what dating them is like. And honestly, it could be a little brutal, but sometimes refreshing and always fascinating, always fascinating. I feel like feedback can be really helpful at any point in your dating career. But I know I would have loved this in my early twenties. Is I feel like at that early on it's really game changing and it can really get ahead of any unhelpful patterns.

I don't know, Julie. I feel like if I got this kind of honest feedback from the old flames that I had in my twenties, it might have broken me. I had no idea who was good for me to date back then. That's true. I guess like for me, my twenties weren't my favorite data dead because I just felt like I didn't really know who I was, or I just kind of felt like dating was something you did, so I did it, but I didn't really know what I wanted at all. I had the opposite experience in my twenties where I thought I really knew myself. I thought I really knew what I wanted, And I swear to you, the moment I turned thirty, I was like, what the hell? Who am I? What am I doing? What do I want?

It actually took me having a brutal breakup to start spending time with myself and really getting to know myself and reflecting on who I was, what I really wanted. You know that, I think is the key to finding love. It's not just loving yourself, but it's really knowing yourself.

Our conversation today is very much a commentary on today's culture because you're like, Okay, I don't need to follow in previous generations footsteps, but now I have to carve out my own path, my own identity. Where do I even start?

Yeah, and there's no playbook. The Rules Why Men Love Bitch is all these bad books out there. They did serve a purpose in some way because it gave you a framework of how to date. But in today's world, anything goes. You really create the love life that works for you, but that can be really difficult, especially if you're struggling with what do I want? Am I just doing what I think I want? Or is this actually what I want? Which brings us to our guests today. If you listen to Christopher's episodes, So one of the episodes we did a few weeks ago, we had an old flame, Deborah that really wanted a relationship with Chris, and after interviewing her for Chris's episode. We were so taken with her journey to five dig Love, we knew we want to get to know her even more. And now here we are Deborah's very own episode. Please welcome Deborah.

I see the cat's tail. It's so funny.

It just jumped over the last I love it.

I love it. Deborah. Is so nice to have you back. I feel like we're old friends by this point, because we got to know you on Christopher's episode and we just found you so full of heart. So after we got off that call with you, the team sat around were like, what's up with Deborah. We want to get to know more about Deborah, so we asked you to be part of the experiment and you happily said yes. We think nobody forced you, right, Yeah, great, So we're so glad to have you back.

Okay, Debora, here is what we know about you. We know that you're a beautiful and bright, twenty somethingter woman from Virginia Beach. We know that you work as a full time videographer, often heading up entire cruise. But not only are you an artist, you're also an athlete, competing frequently in Triathlon's Badass focusing in on your dating life. We know that you're very involved in your queer community, that you've dated men, women, in non binary folks, you have no shortage of admirers. However, you still haven't been able to find what you want a real, loving, and lasting relationship. But what we don't know is this, Deborah, are you ready to be in a relationship?

Okay, that's the ultimate question.

Your reaction says so much, what do you think?

Sometimes I think I am, and then I go on a date and then I'm like, maybe I'm not. And then i give it a couple of weeks and I'm like, oh, I'm ready, And I feel there's a cycle. Okay, I've been wanting to date, but it doesn't feel like it's been very successful or it doesn't go anywhere.

What is it about a relationship that's appealing to you?

I like companionship. I am an introvert and I'm very okay being alone an independent. Sometimes I feel like I can get too alone an independent, But I also definitely create like the companionship of like I have been in relationships for I feel like when I'm in a relationship, even if it hasn't been like I know in the long run it wasn't gonna be my person. I stayed in those relationships longer because it kept that like companion, there.

Are you looking for something monogamous?

Yes?

Okay?

And while we're at it, like, how would you say that you identify now?

I am a white cis female, I am bisexual? Sometimes that's been a guessing game of like, oh, am I really bisexual? Am my meaning? Am I just all full in lesbian? But there there are a few guys that I think maybe if I decided I wasn't by in the future. I don't think that discredits like my relationships before because I feel like as a person you're changing and growing. But it's I guess on the guy side, it has to be more about the personality and character.

And not so much on the women's side, you don't care about personality and character for women.

I feel like it's not easier. It's just kind of like everything about women is just like, oh, easier to mind to drag it.

And kind of walk us through your journey, Like when did you realize that you were bisexual? And then even more focused on women, I.

Think I've always known, but I well, I grew up in a Christian household, like both my parents being ministers, so LGBT stuff was definitely not taught and I barely even knew the term, so I think they made it harder. I had crushes that I didn't like. I kind of half realized for crushes, and then like probably when I was like fourteen, I realized like, oh, this is a crush.

Did you come out to your family around that time?

I think my dad like last year, yeah, last Pride, and then my mom a few.

Months ago, oh, very recent.

That didn't go so well. It was like, both, we love you, but we don't approve it, you know.

So that must be really tough that you feel like your family doesn't embrace your identity. How is that played into dating for you?

I don't think I was able to really like explore relationships at all with women until like I was older. But then I also took a while before I was even confident, and it wasn't until also older that like I wasn't a round queer woman, so the girls I was having crushes on were straight, so that also did not help. Because it's like up until like probably last year, it's like I always felt like I liked a girl, but like, no woman has ever liked to be back, so it kind of feels more isolating.

Oh interesting, you're not totally unopposed to dating men in the future, pending their personalities and all that, but you're exploring more women. That's kind of the path you're taking current day. Is that accurate?

Yes, I don't like to be put in a box, okay, and I'm like definitely only actively really dating women. But as now, like, yeah, I'm open.

You're gonna like what you like. There's no yeah, right, there's no identity to box you in for that's perfect.

Well, we're really excited to dive in with you and answer the question that we said, are you actually ready for a relationship. And we talked to a bunch of your past flames, a bunch a bunch of them, and like we mentioned up top, the reason we got in touch with you in the first place is because you were one of Christopher's past flames. But from just a quick recap for anyone that didn't listen to that episode, you really wanted a relationship with her and felt that there was something even so much to invite her to your sister's wedding, and she just was not on the same page as what we learned. Do you feel like that's happened to you with other people too, or was this more of a one off with Christopher?

No, but no, because well normally I've ended up dating them normally. What happened with Christopher, I think in my past that was like what led up to a relationship for me.

Explain that a little more.

Yeah, what do you mean by that?

Basically, like, if you look at it on a timeline like this month, then it's like, Okay, you start talking in the states, and then you kind of start to get closer, and then at a certain point for me, that's when I start dating the person. Hm. I felt like I was like, oh, we missed that timeline point and now I'm still continuing to like her more so, I don't think I've quite had that happen before.

So this was quite disappointing to you to not have this go into full relationship. And also in your interview about her, there was a little bit of regret and remorse because you wish you had communicated that a little bit more clearly.

Yeah, yeah, I would say, like, yeah, what you say is accurate.

Mm hmm.

Well, it's good to give a refresher of you know, how we met you in the first place with Christopher, but we of course now we're more focused on your past flames and more of your typical pattern. So we were able to talk to Skyler, who you met on Tinder, and you two went out about three to four times, so few more than just the first date, but not a full blown relationship by any means. Before we get into what Skyler had to say, why did you want to hear her opinion?

I mean, I liked her. Looking back on it, I was like I realized, like, honestly, at that time, I was too focused on Chris, and I feel like I would have if I wasn't focused on Chris at that time, I would have put more effort. Because looking back, I'm like, oh, I feel like I was not a jerk or anything like that. I didn't do anything bad, but like I didn't give it like the full effort.

From that being said, we might as well hear directly from Skyler about her side of the story.

I had just broken up with my girlfriend at the time. I wasn't really looking to like date someone.

The first time we talked. She kind of the same thing that she wasn't. She didn't think she was like.

Ready for like a relationship, and I was like, okay, cool, let's be friends.

We can like hook up if you want type vibees what like I got?

Can you recall your first impressions of Debora when you met her in person?

Her personality is a lot softer than her looks, like her voice. The other thing about like her demeanor is like very soft, gentler, and it's like her looks give more like a hard rock type look.

Okay, so what was your dating trajectory?

Like?

How did it go?

We went out like a bar and arcade, got drinks, play games, and we just thought we wanted to do something else.

We talked. She actually sold her shoes to a random stranger.

Wait, she sold her shoes that she had on.

Yes, this woman came up to us. It was like, can I have the all shoes? Will you do that?

So then she's like, yeah, that's fine, and then sold her shoes to this random woman at like one thirty am and then walked in the rain without shoes on back to her car.

So it sounds like you two had some fun times. Mm hmm. Are your feelings getting more and more.

No, I liked her as the person, and I think I liked her like as a friend. I don't think I really felt anything like beyond that, to be honest, but I feel like there wasn't that like chemistry or connection and just for one transparency obviously, I think we were both talking to other people at the time. Around that time is when I started talking to my now girlfriend.

So walk me through this. When you met Debora, you weren't really ready for a relationship. What was it about this woman that made you think, Okay, I'm now ready for a relationship.

We talked for a long time before we met for the first time, so I felt like I got to know her a long time before we met in person.

Ah, so you developed more of an emotional connection before you, yes, got physical.

Yeah, I felt like.

I don't think we have flirted it a lot, to be one hundred percent honest, not a lot of flirting with Abora. We had a lot of serious conversations.

How did things end?

I had gone over to a party to her house. I don't know.

I guess I started feeling like weird about it a little little bit, so like I ended up leading that night, But like, I don't know if she was like expecting me to like stay and spend the night again.

We really didn't talk after that.

So we were doing this show because we really want to help Debora. What do you think is holding her back?

A lot of the deep conversations we had was her like talking about how she's really trying to like become more comfortable with how she wants to present. I think it's really going to be like getting comfortable with herself, to not worry about what anyone else thinks, and like just to let it go.

It feels very like three ing. It feels amazing.

Was that nerve wracking listening to that?

Not nerve wracking? Insightful?

I guess okay, good good.

I want to know how did you feel about her comment about the disconnect between how you present in photos versus how you present in person.

I guess you could say like and the type E leslie in term of be like golden retriever type. Oh kind of like I guess, except I'm not as extroverted, so like maybe a soft culminary shaver, but I can dress more like dominant or masculine type, and like if you saw me in a photo you might think it's like, oh, that chill, dominant mask type person. But I don't think my personality matches it at all. But meeting people can be more like uncomfortable, Like if I want to date someone that's like more fen that like, I feel like I have to dress more like fully masculine type.

Wait, so I want to ask you this because they say our truest self is when no one's watching. So when you are at home, nobody is around, you don't have to think about who you have to dress for or act for. Who Who is Deborah in your most natural habitat?

We'll be right back after the short break.

Who is to Mura in your most natural habitat?

Probably like a T shirt, like a race T shirt that I got for a race, and like shorts.

What about outside of wardrobe? Just like how you identify, like you know, like in your true essence to the core, How would you say.

If I'm very comfortable with someone like a friend or like my sister, I'm probably pretty goofy, like like the stupid character in the movie. I don't want to say it's stupid, but that's how I act. And so if you don't know me, you're like, Oh, that person's a complete idiot, and it's like you can't act like that unless you know the person, because otherwise they're actually gonna think you're really like stupid.

I guess, but will they because it's funny because she said that like the flirting was missing and the playful goofy side actually is that flirting? Right, I'm curious what you thought of that comment too, about this more serious tone lack of flirting this.

Yeah, I guess I didn't realize because I'm thinking about like with other girls and even like Chris, like I don't think like which is like weird. Maybe that's like a disconnect for me, Like I don't feel like I'm able to be super goofy with them because like I have to be like if they're femme, which I'm who's normally who I'm interested, or more like stem like in the middle kind of like me that I have to be the mask type person. So maybe I come off more uptight because I'm probably am feeling a little bit uptight because it's not actually like my personality.

This is the light bulb moment there, It is there. It is because you are identifying yourself in relation to other people. And what we're seeing is the authentic you is not truly coming out. And when you did come out, when you sold your shoes to the stranger, I mean that stuck out so much she really felt attracted to you in that moment.

I think it's sort of ironic that we're getting caught up in lab like fem and mask with your whole sexual identity is not to focus on labels. Yeah, it's something to think about. And you know this isn't even like we hear this actually with hetero women. Also, it's this feeling of I need to be in my feminine and I can't be too aggressive or I can't instigate, and ultimately it's how do you just be you? That's what we really need.

Let's move on to your next old flame, Eddie, because he will shed a little bit more light on this as well. So we understand you and Eddie met in high school, you were friends with his sister, and then you reconnected in college. You both like track running and developed a relationship. Tell us why you put Eddie on the list.

It was the last person I dated, so I know I had a lot of thoughts that I did not communicate to him. And my view on the relationship. I can get very not obsessed, but like cling to the person once I and with the person, whether I know it's going to be good for the long term or not. And I know I did that for sure with him, So like I think, having a person on the other side say it, I feel like it's going to be embarrassing for me because like I knew it wasn't going to be long term, yet I acted very like clinging.

I think, well, let's let's hear let's hear from Eddie. I think it's time.

She was a great teammate, great friend, She's a great person, She's a she's very strong individual. We knew each other for quite some time before because she was friends with my sister and that's how we met the first time.

And then how did it like go from my sister's friend to now the person I'm dating.

When we started like interacting a lot was when I started attending the college. I'd switched my major to film and that was her major. So then we started doing like film projects and like I was like, do I have a crush on this girl?

How did the chemistry develop?

I think we had we had been drinking and I just like went to hold her hand just to see how that would go. Next thing, I knew, we were just making out and school. That's kind of how that happened.

Were there any moments that you thought, oh, she could be a good match for me.

She had some trauma, and walking her through that and just being there for her that made me feel very close to her. I definitely enjoyed being the comfort, you know.

So what happened.

We said we wanted to take it slow, and then the pandemic hit and so I went from her being my girlfriend of college to her being like the one thing in my life. And so we started spending like a lot of time together. And that was also another thing that like that makes you think about the future. It all moves so fast, and so I started thinking about do I want to spend the rest of my life with her? And I couldn't honestly say yes. And I quickly realized that although we had a lot in common, we also had a lot of differences.

Can you kind of elaborate more on what those differences were.

The biggest thing was our sense of humor. There was all these times I would make a joke and she would like do a little you know, when you can tell someone just like fake laughing at your joke. That was one of the first things I noticed that I was like, are we really a match? Like we have activities that we like to do together. All that stuff was fine and good, but I felt like the chemistry that you have when you're just one on one with someone wasn't there.

How did things end between you two?

I remember she told me she loved me. I said, you really think so? Because I didn't know what to say. I know it took a lot of guts for her to say it, and it I couldn't say it back in that moment. I couldn't and I didn't want to drag it out longer and hurt her more. Somehow we ended up facetiming. It was just very just sad. I just remember us both crying. It just it sucked because I knew I was hurting her, And yeah, it really did suck. The relationship. I think think it was good, well lasted. I think I learned a lot from it. I hope she doesn't think she did something wrong.

Were you surprised when he ended things?

No, I don't think so, because it was sort of like he started ghosting me almost. It wasn't abrupt. I didn't know. We weren't supposed to be, you know, together for the long run or anything. But like when I'm with someone, I can be loyal to a fault in some way. It's like or maybe just like you don't want to lose that companion, and so it's like maybe if he didn't, like, if he had different thoughts or something. I don't know, Like I'm glad he did break it off, you know.

Then it's interesting because this is definitely coming up as a theme too, of this holding onto relationships that aren't working, like Chris. Also, it's this perseverance, but not in a way that's serving you. It's to continue to feel this companionship that is relying too much on other people.

Essentially.

So he did make a comment about your personalities and the sense of humor weren't necessarily compatible. Did you feel the same way or was that a surprise.

I forgot about that, I guess, like the little details and it's probably why, like we were just friends for so long, and it was I would say, really just because of the physical stuff that we started dating. He had a crush on me first, but like the now he mentioned when he's like made out or something that was kind of like his move was kind of to hold the hand, and I take it like a step further. So in reality, I think it was just more like we were good friends and probably should have stayed good friends, not that it was bad. Yeah, I guess like you'd want your humor to match with your person, you definitely didn't. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff I think his interests that like I would try to be interested in, Like I'm trying, but I can't.

It's interesting though, because like a friend, you would think that like your sets of humors would line up, but that would be a way that YouTube on. Like do you think you showed him your playful, silly side that you were talking about earlier.

In some ways, like definitely the softer side. I mean I wasn't as goofy as I was with probably like my best friend then or like my sister. But like I think, like we would go on runs together and talk, you know, and so it's like activities we enjoyed doing it. It's like I enjoyed talking to him, So it's like like we did enjoy each other's companionship. But maybe I would say, honest, like the physical side maybe like covered up the humor side or like those little parts where it's like, okay, if you actually had no physical type, you probably would have just stayed friends because not everything lined up enough to go into a relationship.

He did mention something about previous trauma. We don't have to go into specifics. Would love to hear from you what he's referring to.

I always actually assaulted at the past. So and there's like sometimes like a month of the year aired on DS great and one of the months, and that was one of the months we were dating, and just like different things or you know, gets like harder at different times of the year. So like wasn't seen a therapist. It should have been. But so I still like didn't know how to cope with certain stuff, and when you're dating someone, it's kind of accentuates certain traumas and stuff.

So yeah, and how old were you when this happened?

Eighteen?

Okay, thank you for sharing that, really appreciate it.

Yeah, I'm sorry that you went through that. I think you know what we're hearing. Though. He did feel closer to you when you did share that, And we never want to say that we want people to go through traumatic experiences. But I do think this showing him a little more of Deborah. This keeps being the theme right of you know, activities, that's a great way to get to know someone, but it's almost like, are you looking for an activity partner or someone that you could have an emotional bond with and and you know that side? Did you know it made him feel closer to you? So I think any ways that you can show more of who Debora is, the good, the pain, like everything that makes you you actually will bring someone closer.

Sometimes when I'm with a guy, or at least more so before, I feel like I slightly have to play more into my feminine side or something like you have to if you're with a guy.

I think this is getting it your way, this projection of how you think it should be, and like how especially the fact that you date men and women. Really it's confusing to be like I need to be like this with this person and this with that person. We want you to just be you with everyone.

And the women that you've been attracted or at least the women we've spoken to, like Chris and Skuyler. What drew you to them was the fact that they're unapologetically themselves. So I think it's a sign for you that you are drawn to this time so you can also become the type.

And I want to get into your next flame. But before we do, you said I love you. You even told us upfront. You don't know if you really meant it. It was more of a you know, the feeling of being in a relationship, the companionship.

Were you in love with Eddie?

Hold tight?

This exit interview will continue in just a moment.

Were you in love with Eddie?

Well, I said I love you, but it was a different type of love. I think I wanted to be in love almost not to say kind of bad. What I like sounds like kind of drink, to say like I just wanted to be in love.

Yeah, it's very relatable.

We know a lot of people feel that way. We are going to move on to our next flame. Ryan. You two met on a film set. You flirted a lot, and this led to a date. Can you tell us a little bit of why you chose Ryan for us to talk to.

It was only a first date, but I guess it was different and like we were friends before and friends after, maybe more like a deeper friendship type. But I guess for some reason, not like relationship.

Okay, did you want something more with Brian after that first date?

No? Not romantically.

Okay, let's hear it from Ryan and hear what they had to say.

Oh my gosh. We met on set of a short film that we were shooting in West Virginia. The mind that we were shooting in is like an old abandoned mine, and like I saw her and like, she just looked so like she looks so hard working, and like I like she was very focused and seeing that initial passion was like the probably my motivator, and going up to her, the intense of the focus kind of lifted and like, I don't know, she's so nice, Like she's so such a nice person. I was the one who asked her if she wanted to go.

Out, would you mind telling us a bit about what happened.

Well, we walked around town for a bit and we got ice cream, and we talked about our favorite things. We talked about Spider Man, because she liked Spider Man a lot and I like Spider Man a lot. That we talked about everything we know about that and it just seem like the right moment, so I leaned in for a kiss and she kissed back. Then eventually, like you know that situation where like you don't really have a place to be intimate. Mm hmm. We were just kind of like in my car, just kissing, and like that definitely shook loose a trauma. Something about that uncertainty of hers Yeah, I would say that she was reminded of a moment in her life where someone hurt her. She just started crying and like we kind of started sitting there and crying together, and I was, I was, I was just trying to make sure she was okay because I didn't want I didn't want her to feel any of that, because I didn't want her to feel like that was ever my intention or anything like that. None of it is her fault, and I hope one day she doesn't have to carry that, but she does.

Do you feel like the past trauma that Deborah shared with you is holding her back from a connection.

Yeah, that's something that she's going to hold within her. That stuff just hangs on with you.

Was this the reason why it was only one time?

I think one big thing was that I didn't want her to feel like I was like trying to push her out of her comfort zone. We never really like set anything up because I was just kind of waiting for her to let me know if she wanted me, if she.

Gave you more indicators that she was interested. Is Deborah someone that you would want a date?

Yeah?

Absolutely, Debora is awesome.

So a lot to unpack there, But is this series of events what you remember? Also?

Yeah, the only detail from my perspective that would be different when we first met on the film set and they said I was say a focus and that we were flirting. I didn't realize we were flirting because they were asking me questions about my job, and I'm like, wow, they just like must really need interested in what I'm doing.

What I'm gathering from this is that even though you're not trying to flirt with these people, you're in your element and they are attracted to the passion. Because Eddie said the same exact thing, And it's almost like when we're in this date mode, trying to fit into a box, should I be them? Should I be basque? That's when all that goes out the window and people aren't seen that side of Dobora. So it's almost it's almost a reason to let your guard down and just show yourself again. It's confirming the exact same thing. Yeah, yeah, I feel the same way because I also feel like I've been here before. I remember going all these dates, none of them working out, and my best friend just being like, I don't understand you're a social person. Why is this so difficult? And I realized I was bringing this date self of mine that was more stiff, more like I need to follow this rule, I need to act this way. And then once I was able to drop that and just be myself like I would be when I was meeting friends, or I would be in my passion projects. Like that's when people are attracted to you.

The flirting part is a good topic to discuss because flirting, what it really means is that you're confident. Yeah, it just comes down to confidence. When you are so confident in yourself, you start giving that attention to other people because you're like, I don't need the attention. I'm confident. So then you you make other people feel seen and heard. And that's what happened with you and Brian is that you were so confident that it made them feel comfortable just being around you. Yeah, and that's what people interpret as flirting. They think you're giving them that special attention when you're like, I'm just in my element. This is just who I am.

Is.

What is something to dive into with Rian is they got very emotional about talking about what happened on the State. We couldn't play all of it, but it was it lasted for a long time. They were very emotional. How do you feel about that, knowing that they felt so much for you.

I feel like I kind of blocked it out because of what happened, nothing that they did or anything, but because of me, and or at least this point, like I couldn't handle anything physical. I think, like in one way, like I am a dominant person, say like for example, like in the bedroom or stuff like that. But there is some parts of me that likes being a switch and more like sub stuff. But I absolutely like refuse mentally. And I guess like my body that like no one else can be more dominant than me in that sense. And so like if I sense that from someone, and I think the thing that almost scares me, not like in a bad scare, but like and I guess that what scares me from Ryan, is that I feel like they could be more dominant. I don't know, They're very soft also, but I think there's that sense that where like you feel like you could lose control or something got it. So because in the past it's happened where like it felt okay. And I think with Eddie also because we had been friends for so long, there was a deeper trust in that when things did happen, I don't think.

Yeah, do you think there would have ever been a second date with Brian or was it just too much that you could separate the two?

Probably too much? Like I guess it would take like a lot of healing for me that I'm not sure and.

Yeh yeah, okay. So when we were talking to them, they said they weren't sure if this trauma could hold you back just because it's a lot. Do you think that it's holding you back from an emotional connection with someone else or do you think that you've healed from it?

I definitely haven't healed, so Okay, Yeah, I guess it could be holding me back.

Are you doing anything to get to the emotional trauma, like therapy or anything that's helping kind of work through some of that side of things.

It's some way to do list to get a therapist.

Okay, okay, it's good. That's good.

It's the first step. It's hard to say, like is this one hundred percent holding you back? But any traumas are going to show up. They're going to pop up in some manner. So the more we can work through them emotionally and physically all the things that need to happen, the better. So maybe even hearing this exit interview will bump it up a little further on the to do list, because you know, I think that is so important to move forward, is how do we put the stuff in the past, or not put it away, but at least move forward in a way that's not going to prevent us from being in the past.

Yeah.

Okay, So we've dissected a lot today, and you know, I think, first and Forebos, you're clearly such a sweet and charismatic person overall, just all the people we talked to, like had such great impressions of you. Think what we've really learned from this is we need to figure out who Debora is. We need to get to the core. And I know you've done so much work with even figuring out your sexuality more and figuring out that you really want to be pursuing women ultimately. But there's so much that we've even uncovered today of how do we let the true Deborah shine through? And you know, we talked about traumas too. It's we're not going to erase the past and sometimes that actually can bring people closer if we share it in a way from a place of empathy and showing who you are.

Yeah, I guess I'll try not to overthink it, but maybe just like rethink how I'm going into these situations.

We really need to kind of lose some of these labels of the fem and mask and all the things that you think you should be and almost it it's like you're adapting for whoever you're dating, instead of saying, hey, this is me Deborah, take it or leave it being unapologetically you. And we'd love to see you kind of go into that next stage of this is me Deborah.

Yeah, Debora, I feel like you're in some sort of prison right now. And something that Skuyler said during our interview. To feel that full sense of freedom is when you will feel the best about yourself, and that's when you are open to love. And the reason why I feel like you're kind of in prison is because you are imprisoned by these labels that Julie talked about. I don't feel like the full Dobora is coming out. And even in our interactions on this call, it's every time we get into something a little bit deeper, you mask that with laughing and giggles. I don't know if you notice that. It's like you want to lighten the conversation a little bit, and I appreciate it because you are still staying open. But every time you do that, you do bring us back to the surface. You know, like we're swimming. We're swimming, we're digging, digging, and then you are like, no, no, no, guys, let's go back, let's go back. I need to come up for My only suggestion to you in that is that you let people know what's going on. Hey, I feel like we're swimming, We're getting deeper. I just need to come up for air. Let's do something fun, Let's do some goofy, and then we'll dig a little bit another time. This is how we can involve people in your life, Deborah, because this is your life and we are so excited to see you fully blossom and free yourself out of the life that you thought you were living because there is your full potential. That's just you're on the precipice of it. You're just about to be there.

Thank you.

It's a lot to take in.

Obviously, like knew I was going to learn something, I didn't expect this.

Go grab us up of water, We'll be right back.

Obviously, like knew I was gonna learn something, I didn't expect this. I feel like it's really helpful and like almost like a bigger route of the issue that it completely did not realize.

Yes, yeah, and I think you know they're sayings like you have to love yourself before you love others. While we agree on some parts, we don't agree fully. We think loving yourself is an evolving process, but knowing yourself is a form of love. And how can we focus on knowing you loving who you are? Because I think having those other outlets like friendships takes the pressure off of making it that you need to stay in relationships that quite frankly aren't working for you. Like you even said it with Eddie, it's he was a companion and that's why it felt so good. But we want to free you up to find someone that matches that love and that you truly love.

Maybe just like rethink, think how I'm going into these situations and kind of try and catch myself when I'm thinking about what other people are thinking or like what the date, because it's I'm more thinking about like what is that date thinking or something and who they want me to be, And like you said, I adapt to what other people kind of yeah, not that they're telling me to adapt, but I'm just kind of doing it.

Yes, Yeah, the shift has to come back to you, like do I like this person? This is who I am? Is this a good match for me? Instead of should I be like this to fit into this person? We even saw this with Chris too. You know, Chris was telling you who she was, what she wanted, and you were adapting, adapting and trying to make something work.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think maybe one good exercise for you to do is because everything you've done up till now is in relation to other people. Like you said, what if we looked at it like this. People come into your life for a reason, a season or a lifetime. For example, Skyler, she came in for a reason because she is just like I give no fucks. This is who I am. I'm going to tell you like how it is. And her reason of being in your life is She's like, Debora, you can get here too. You can get here like full freedom. I'm free, I'm free. Fly. So you know, with the people you're going to encounter in your life, instead of thinking do they like me? What do they think about me? What is the reason for them being in my life? What are they teaching me in this moment? What can I learn here? And then you'll become this ever lifetime student in dating and it just becomes so much more fun that way because you just keep learning from people.

Yeah, I guess, just a lot to think about.

Before each date, Debora, stand in front of the mirror and give yourself three affirmations. I'm Deborah, and I am this, this, and this before any date. It grounds you in who you know you are without anybody seeing you, interacting with anybody. It's who you are when nobody's around. So I gave you one action item. What is another action that you would take from this conversation?

I think just not being afraid to be myself. Like I said, like I feel like when I end myself. I feel like people would just think I'm stupid. I'm I may not be the smartest, but like you know, Goofy can come off as stupid, and I don't think, Yeah, I don't show that, so I guess kind of challenging myself to show up as that person.

I think it's reframing it too. You know, we hear from daters all the time that they want someone playful. We've even heard it from some of your flames today. They want someone yeah that makes them like that it's flirty and it's fun, and Goofy can be that. It doesn't need to be stupid. So how do you stop saying that Goofy equals stupid and Goofy equals fun and exciting and that magnetic energy that's going to draw someone to you. Yeah, okay, So the original question we asked was are you ready for a relationship? And I think the answer is you were ready for a relationship with Deborah. That's who you're ready for a relationship with.

Yes, what do you think about that?

Tobora?

Yeah, I guess I need to be I feel comfortable out in public, But I guess not my authentic self like I thought, I was, but I guess now thinking about it, I'm definitely not so. I guess learning how to interact with other people kind of being like that silly, goofy type without I guess the insecurity ish of it.

Yeah, and this is only going to help you have relationships with others ones you can get to the core of who you are. All of this is going to bring the right people to you that you don't feel like you have to fit yourself in a box, because who wants to go through life feeling that way? With somewhat I want we know you got this, Deborah, because we really do think that, you know, getting in touch with yourself, getting in touch with the past traumas adding that to the to do list also of how do we start to come to terms with what happened and really like love all sides of ourselves, including that past, is so essential on this next phase of your journey for you.

Thank you, Deborah for going through this with us.

Great. Well, it's been great talking to you too. I really appreciate it. It's been super fun and insightful. I definitely learned a lot.

What a good episode.

It's a great conversation. I'm so proud of her.

It really just shows you that the best part of what we learned with Debora is that people pop really were attracted to her at her natural elements.

Yes, but she.

Was so focused on who she should be on dates that she didn't see that. It's like the foundation's there already. Now, she just needs to play into her own strengths more and show people the side of her that makes her come alive, like that playful energy she kept talking about. I want to see that on.

Dates, I know, and the whole mask femme discussion, I just felt like, oh my gosh, I've definitely had those moments where I don't know, maybe it was like a talk show or some book I read that was like be more feminine, being your feminine energy and that will make the man feel more like the man. And even antiquated gender roles can play out on queer dating too, So I was like, no, let's stop, let's stop thinking about in those in those respects and focus on who are you? What is the person you want to be?

And I don't think Debora was expecting this at all. As the takeaway from this of the how do I really deep in and strengthen the relationship with myself. She was definitely looking for how do I make things stick with others a bit? But that is really what it comes down to. And I really do believe that she heard it. She's going to take it in and this is going to be the change that she needs. And you know, she's in her early twenties. Even if you're in your thirties or your forties, you still might not have it figured out. But I think the early twenties is such formative years that this is so standard for people. And you know, a big face to Debora to put herself out here to show people that this is the work that's necessary to actually finding a partnership for the long haul.

I am so proud of her. But that wraps up this episode. Thank you so much for listening.

This Exitit review might be finished, but we actually have a really good one in store next week. Kyle, who knows a ton about sex but maybe not so much about love, We're going to see how the sex empowerment coach himself is ready to make a connection.

Yes, so make sure to subscribe to Exit Interview to be the first to listen, And while you're at it, rate and leave us a review. You can find us on Instagram at Exit Interview Show and on Twitter at x Interview Show. And as we've said before, seek the help that you need. And we do not want to take sexual assault lightly here, so if you're looking for resources, definitely contact the National Sexual Assault Hotline at one eight hundred sixty five six four six seven three. And with that, thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week.

See you next week.

This episode was coordinated by Katia Kupelian, Creative, produced by Samantha Martin, and edited by Jen Jacobs. We are produced by Abigail Steckler at Little Scorpion Studios, with executive producers Uishu, Julie Kraftchik and Frolic Media. This is an iHeartRadio podcast.

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