Hello and welcome to another episode of the enter. The Bible podcast, where you can get answers or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible but were afraid to ask. I'm Katie Langston.

Hello and welcome to another episode of the enter. The Bible podcast, where you can get answers or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible but were afraid to ask. I'm Katie Langston.

I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker, and we have as our special guest again today, Professor Diane Jacobson, our friend and colleague. Diane is Professor emerita, meaning a retired professor of Old Testament at Luther Seminary and also the retired or former director of the book of Faith initiative in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and A piece of Trivia. She was also the first woman who taught Bible at any Lutheran seminary in the United States. So thank you for joining us again, Diane. It's great to it.

I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker, and we have as our special guest again today, Professor Diane Jacobson, our friend and colleague. Diane is Professor emerita, meaning a retired professor of Old Testament at Luther Seminary and also the retired or former director of the book of Faith initiative in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and A piece of Trivia. She was also the first woman who taught Bible at any Lutheran seminary in the United States. So thank you for joining us again, Diane. It's great to it.

Is wonderful to be here. It's a complicated question we're going to deal with, but it's really good to be here.

Is wonderful to be here. It's a complicated question we're going to deal with, but it's really good to be here.

We saved the hardest questions for our favorite people, right? The people we.

We saved the hardest questions for our favorite people, right? The people we.

The people we trust the most.

The people we trust the most.

That's right, that's right. Uh, so here, uh, I'll give the the original question and then our kind of shorthand version. So this as, as always, was submitted by a listener and enter the Bible.org. So how does Scripture, particularly Galatians acts 15 and Ephesians 215, address the question of whether Jewish believers in Jesus were expected to stop observing Jewish practices, given the clear teaching that Gentile believers did not have to adopt them, that is, Jewish practices. So we shortened that to say, did Jewish believers in Jesus have to stop being Jewish? So this obviously has to do with the early church, uh, because the first believers in Jesus were all Jewish and then and then.

That's right, that's right. Uh, so here, uh, I'll give the the original question and then our kind of shorthand version. So this as, as always, was submitted by a listener and enter the Bible.org. So how does Scripture, particularly Galatians acts 15 and Ephesians 215, address the question of whether Jewish believers in Jesus were expected to stop observing Jewish practices, given the clear teaching that Gentile believers did not have to adopt them, that is, Jewish practices. So we shortened that to say, did Jewish believers in Jesus have to stop being Jewish? So this obviously has to do with the early church, uh, because the first believers in Jesus were all Jewish and then and then.

And Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was Jewish.

And Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was Jewish.

Jesus too.

Jesus too.

Let's point that out.

Let's point that out.

Yes, yes. Good point, good point. Yeah, that I thought that went without saying. But yes, Jesus was a Jew as well. Uh, and then the church expanded out to Gentiles. So. So, Diane, how would you begin to address that question?

Yes, yes. Good point, good point. Yeah, that I thought that went without saying. But yes, Jesus was a Jew as well. Uh, and then the church expanded out to Gentiles. So. So, Diane, how would you begin to address that question?

Before I begin to address it, I have to say just a couple of things. One, I am a Hebrew scripture scholar. I am not a New Testament scholar. So, um, coming at this, I want to just make sure that everybody knows that. The other thing is that I come from a Jewish background and, um, I was raised a very reformed Jew. Uh, and.

Before I begin to address it, I have to say just a couple of things. One, I am a Hebrew scripture scholar. I am not a New Testament scholar. So, um, coming at this, I want to just make sure that everybody knows that. The other thing is that I come from a Jewish background and, um, I was raised a very reformed Jew. Uh, and.

Just to say, Diane, define reformed Jew.

Just to say, Diane, define reformed Jew.

Well, that's, you know, one, it's, you know, Jews don't have denominations the way Christians do. So it but it's, it's a it's a tradition within Judaism that doesn't follow lots of the laws and the practices. I mean, I went to Sunday school.

Well, that's, you know, one, it's, you know, Jews don't have denominations the way Christians do. So it but it's, it's a it's a tradition within Judaism that doesn't follow lots of the laws and the practices. I mean, I went to Sunday school.

Isn't that, you know, that kind of gives you a clue. You know, that there are different Jewish traditions, certainly within the United States, but all through Jewish history, so often when people ask questions about Jews, it's complicated.

Isn't that, you know, that kind of gives you a clue. You know, that there are different Jewish traditions, certainly within the United States, but all through Jewish history, so often when people ask questions about Jews, it's complicated.

Yeah, yeah. For sure.

Yeah, yeah. For sure.

The question is heard... I hear the question as complicated because what is it to be Jewish is that a religion is an ethnic identity because I'm a Lutheran. Am I a Jewish? Lutheran? Uh, well, yes, in some ways I am, because ethnically I never stopped being Jewish. But of course, people wanted to be a religious practice. Well, then what is it to be a Lutheran.

The question is heard... I hear the question as complicated because what is it to be Jewish is that a religion is an ethnic identity because I'm a Lutheran. Am I a Jewish? Lutheran? Uh, well, yes, in some ways I am, because ethnically I never stopped being Jewish. But of course, people wanted to be a religious practice. Well, then what is it to be a Lutheran.

Right? Right.

Right? Right.

What are the practices? Is that a also a bit ethnic too? I mean, you know, there are all kinds of issues that come up with questions like this. So at one level, this is a historical question about what did Paul and the writers of Act of Acts mean to be saying? And in another, you can't separate the historical question from the history of how complicated this is. Does that make sense? Am I making sense?

What are the practices? Is that a also a bit ethnic too? I mean, you know, there are all kinds of issues that come up with questions like this. So at one level, this is a historical question about what did Paul and the writers of Act of Acts mean to be saying? And in another, you can't separate the historical question from the history of how complicated this is. Does that make sense? Am I making sense?

Yeah. For sure.

Yeah. For sure.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Maybe just a little, little background, a little more background. So our listeners probably know this already, but there was a there was a debate in the early church. Paul writes about it. The book of acts talks about it. Right. About whether a Gentile that is a non-Jewish believer in Jesus had to be circumcised. Male A male believer.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Maybe just a little, little background, a little more background. So our listeners probably know this already, but there was a there was a debate in the early church. Paul writes about it. The book of acts talks about it. Right. About whether a Gentile that is a non-Jewish believer in Jesus had to be circumcised. Male A male believer.

They didn't care about that. Women did anyway. But.

They didn't care about that. Women did anyway. But.

Right.

Right.

We can do whatever.

We can do whatever.

Flying under the radar since the year BC 5000. Go on. Yeah.

Flying under the radar since the year BC 5000. Go on. Yeah.

Um, so did did Gentiles have to become Jews basically, before they could become Christians? And Paul, there was a debate. There was an honest debate here. And it was a big debate.

Um, so did did Gentiles have to become Jews basically, before they could become Christians? And Paul, there was a debate. There was an honest debate here. And it was a big debate.

It was very serious. It was.

It was very serious. It was.

Huge. Yeah. Paul, the apostle Paul, who wrote so many of the New Testament epistles, uh, came down firmly on the side of no. In fact, the book of Galatians is primarily about that question and that debate. No, a Gentile believer does not have to become Jewish another or be circumcised in order to be a Christian. So but to be honest, I had never thought about this other question. Right. Did Jewish believers in Jesus have to stop being Jewish? Right.

Huge. Yeah. Paul, the apostle Paul, who wrote so many of the New Testament epistles, uh, came down firmly on the side of no. In fact, the book of Galatians is primarily about that question and that debate. No, a Gentile believer does not have to become Jewish another or be circumcised in order to be a Christian. So but to be honest, I had never thought about this other question. Right. Did Jewish believers in Jesus have to stop being Jewish? Right.

Uh, and and go ahead. I thinking about this. It is clear what you just said is true. What Paul was talking about is how the Jewish believers judge their Gentile colleagues, and he's not talking to them about what they have to do. So in some ways, we're never going to get a direct answer to this kinds of question. And the way I think about the answer to this is, if you come from a Jewish background and you want to light Hanukkah candles and you want to go to services on Friday, and you want to your children, your male children to be circumcised, why are you doing this? Because it's the joy of the tradition and you're living into your community. Well, then it seems to me Paul has no objection to it whatsoever. But if you're doing this to say I'm better than you, and I'm a more important believer than you are, and you know that kind of thing, well then there's a problem.

Uh, and and go ahead. I thinking about this. It is clear what you just said is true. What Paul was talking about is how the Jewish believers judge their Gentile colleagues, and he's not talking to them about what they have to do. So in some ways, we're never going to get a direct answer to this kinds of question. And the way I think about the answer to this is, if you come from a Jewish background and you want to light Hanukkah candles and you want to go to services on Friday, and you want to your children, your male children to be circumcised, why are you doing this? Because it's the joy of the tradition and you're living into your community. Well, then it seems to me Paul has no objection to it whatsoever. But if you're doing this to say I'm better than you, and I'm a more important believer than you are, and you know that kind of thing, well then there's a problem.

Mhm.

Mhm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No I think that's a helpful distinction. I do I want to note that in acts it talks over and over and over again about, you know, Peter and and John and Paul and you know, going to the synagogue, right, going to the Jewish house of worship to participate in synagogue services.

No I think that's a helpful distinction. I do I want to note that in acts it talks over and over and over again about, you know, Peter and and John and Paul and you know, going to the synagogue, right, going to the Jewish house of worship to participate in synagogue services.

So even at the temple, they even go to the temple. Yeah.

So even at the temple, they even go to the temple. Yeah.

And the temple. Yeah, yeah. And the temple in Jerusalem. So it seems that that they did continue to practice or didn't stop being Jewish in order to become a follower.

And the temple. Yeah, yeah. And the temple in Jerusalem. So it seems that that they did continue to practice or didn't stop being Jewish in order to become a follower.

And I think they would say this is our duty and our delight.

And I think they would say this is our duty and our delight.

Yeah, but.

Yeah, but.

It's not our salvation. Yes.

It's not our salvation. Yes.

Right. Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

And they may be probably. I'm making. Hopefully I'm not making this up, but I might be. But like they, they it seems like they said, you know, this is our duty and delight, but it's not necessarily yours. Speaking to the Gentiles.

And they may be probably. I'm making. Hopefully I'm not making this up, but I might be. But like they, they it seems like they said, you know, this is our duty and delight, but it's not necessarily yours. Speaking to the Gentiles.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Right, right.

Right, right.

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision makes any difference to how we are seen before God, right? Right. And yeah, believing that is the central point. What what's distressing about this is it gets turned upside down in the history of Christianity. Mhm. It gets turned upside down from Jews not wanting Gentiles to be part of their community because they're not circumcised and they to very quickly going after Jews because they're this, that or the other. And the whole history of Christianity has been that, you know, the Jews killed Christ. Excuse me? Christ was a Jew.

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision makes any difference to how we are seen before God, right? Right. And yeah, believing that is the central point. What what's distressing about this is it gets turned upside down in the history of Christianity. Mhm. It gets turned upside down from Jews not wanting Gentiles to be part of their community because they're not circumcised and they to very quickly going after Jews because they're this, that or the other. And the whole history of Christianity has been that, you know, the Jews killed Christ. Excuse me? Christ was a Jew.

Right? Right.

Right? Right.

You know. Right.

You know. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's that that's a great point. And an important point. I mean, much to the shame of the church through the centuries, the the the church became the persecutor. Right. Of Jews. Uh, much to the shame. I mean, it's one of the things that. Yeah. Right. Which is why continually remember.

That's that that's a great point. And an important point. I mean, much to the shame of the church through the centuries, the the the church became the persecutor. Right. Of Jews. Uh, much to the shame. I mean, it's one of the things that. Yeah. Right. Which is why continually remember.

We this question is a very legitimate question. But like so many questions that we have about the Jews or the who, you know, the Muslims or whoever we're putting into whatever group, it so quickly can turn against itself and become something else from a legitimate question to something you use in an illegitimate way. Yeah.

We this question is a very legitimate question. But like so many questions that we have about the Jews or the who, you know, the Muslims or whoever we're putting into whatever group, it so quickly can turn against itself and become something else from a legitimate question to something you use in an illegitimate way. Yeah.

I think I think it's.

I think I think it's.

You persecute or hate or despise or. Yeah. Yeah, I.

You persecute or hate or despise or. Yeah. Yeah, I.

Think it's it's helpful actually, to look at one of these passages that the that the listener, uh, talks about in Ephesians two. This is, uh, Paul talking to or, um, well, we won't get into that, uh, talking to the Gentiles. Right. Um, so starting at verse 11. So then remember that at one time you Gentiles by birth called the uncircumcision by those who are called the circumcision, that is the Jews. Remember that you were at that time without Christ being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Remember, Gentiles, you were once had no hope, but now in Christ Jesus. You who once were far off, have been brought near by the blood of Christ, for he is our peace in his flesh. He has made both groups into one, and has broken down the dividing wall. That is the hostility between us. And then this is the verse that in particular the listener mentioned. He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, and might reconcile both groups to God in one body through the cross. So it's. And then it goes on, he proclaimed peace to those who were far off and those who were near. So, uh, I mean, that's it's beautiful, right? Like, God has broken down. Christ has broken down the dividing wall between us. And now you Gentiles who were far off have been brought near. Right. And you've been made one. It reminds me of, uh, Romans nine through 11. Where Paul. Right. Where Paul is wrestling with it. He's so saddened that his people, the Jews, have not, you know, unmasked, accepted Christ as the Messiah. And so he struggles with this question of, well, well then what about the Jews? What about Israel? And it's a complicated argument, but he comes down and says, the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable, right? Like the chosen people are still the chosen people. And it's not because of themselves. It's because God is faithful to God's promises. And that's such an important thing. And then he goes on to say, so, Gentiles, right? You have no reason to boast because you've been grafted into the tree that is Israel, right? You're like a wild olive branch grafted into the olive tree that is Israel. So I think we always have to remember that those of us who are Gentile Christians have to remember that humility. Right? Right. We've been brought near by the grace of God. And that's the good news.

Think it's it's helpful actually, to look at one of these passages that the that the listener, uh, talks about in Ephesians two. This is, uh, Paul talking to or, um, well, we won't get into that, uh, talking to the Gentiles. Right. Um, so starting at verse 11. So then remember that at one time you Gentiles by birth called the uncircumcision by those who are called the circumcision, that is the Jews. Remember that you were at that time without Christ being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Remember, Gentiles, you were once had no hope, but now in Christ Jesus. You who once were far off, have been brought near by the blood of Christ, for he is our peace in his flesh. He has made both groups into one, and has broken down the dividing wall. That is the hostility between us. And then this is the verse that in particular the listener mentioned. He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, and might reconcile both groups to God in one body through the cross. So it's. And then it goes on, he proclaimed peace to those who were far off and those who were near. So, uh, I mean, that's it's beautiful, right? Like, God has broken down. Christ has broken down the dividing wall between us. And now you Gentiles who were far off have been brought near. Right. And you've been made one. It reminds me of, uh, Romans nine through 11. Where Paul. Right. Where Paul is wrestling with it. He's so saddened that his people, the Jews, have not, you know, unmasked, accepted Christ as the Messiah. And so he struggles with this question of, well, well then what about the Jews? What about Israel? And it's a complicated argument, but he comes down and says, the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable, right? Like the chosen people are still the chosen people. And it's not because of themselves. It's because God is faithful to God's promises. And that's such an important thing. And then he goes on to say, so, Gentiles, right? You have no reason to boast because you've been grafted into the tree that is Israel, right? You're like a wild olive branch grafted into the olive tree that is Israel. So I think we always have to remember that those of us who are Gentile Christians have to remember that humility. Right? Right. We've been brought near by the grace of God. And that's the good news.

And everybody remembering that humility and that whenever these questions are asked, do we have to? I think hearing that kind of question to ourselves now not. But do we have to do something different? Do we have to disown the church in order to become part of the church? I mean, the church has certainly done lots of pretty miserable things. Um, so does that mean we have to stop being Christians in order to be Christians? I there's a way in all of us addressing that same kind of question to ourselves, no matter where we begin, because we're always doing things that are interfering with our accepting that God loves and accepts everyone. It's pretty endemic to the human species.

And everybody remembering that humility and that whenever these questions are asked, do we have to? I think hearing that kind of question to ourselves now not. But do we have to do something different? Do we have to disown the church in order to become part of the church? I mean, the church has certainly done lots of pretty miserable things. Um, so does that mean we have to stop being Christians in order to be Christians? I there's a way in all of us addressing that same kind of question to ourselves, no matter where we begin, because we're always doing things that are interfering with our accepting that God loves and accepts everyone. It's pretty endemic to the human species.

It seems to be. It seems to be we.

It seems to be. It seems to be we.

We always want to, uh, differentiate ourselves or other other people. Right? Like, yeah.

We always want to, uh, differentiate ourselves or other other people. Right? Like, yeah.

Or we're constantly trying to, you know, self-justify to, you know, by putting, pitting ourselves over and against others or, or whatever and. Right, that sort of. No, you're, you're, you're you're loved, you're claimed is is so radical. We think, oh, that can't be right. We got to make up some other rules.

Or we're constantly trying to, you know, self-justify to, you know, by putting, pitting ourselves over and against others or, or whatever and. Right, that sort of. No, you're, you're, you're you're loved, you're claimed is is so radical. We think, oh, that can't be right. We got to make up some other rules.

Yeah. Then going back to this notion. So what you do in your practices ask it not so much as it necessary. But does it give you joy? Does it feed your community? Does it help your neighbor? Does it do all of those things not because you're being saved by it, but because it's it builds you up in some way. And those are legitimate questions.

Yeah. Then going back to this notion. So what you do in your practices ask it not so much as it necessary. But does it give you joy? Does it feed your community? Does it help your neighbor? Does it do all of those things not because you're being saved by it, but because it's it builds you up in some way. And those are legitimate questions.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's a really lovely kind of place to to end. Um, it was a great, great question. Lots of rich food for thought there. Thank you so much to the listener who submitted it. And thank you, dear listener or viewer on the YouTubes, if you're watching us or listening to us today, thanks for being with us. Uh, thanks to Diane as well for your, your wonderful and my deep pleasure responses. Yeah, it's really fun. Um, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's a really lovely kind of place to to end. Um, it was a great, great question. Lots of rich food for thought there. Thank you so much to the listener who submitted it. And thank you, dear listener or viewer on the YouTubes, if you're watching us or listening to us today, thanks for being with us. Uh, thanks to Diane as well for your, your wonderful and my deep pleasure responses. Yeah, it's really fun. Um, yeah.

Wonderful to have. Thank you for.

Wonderful to have. Thank you for.

That. So fun.

That. So fun.

Perceptive and insightful. Rich answer. Diane. Thank you.

Perceptive and insightful. Rich answer. Diane. Thank you.

Of course, you can always get more information on the Enter the Bible website at enter the Bible.org. Um, we got maps, we've got commentaries, we've got videos, we've got more podcasts, whatever you could want. Be sure to like and subscribe on YouTube, or rate and review us in your favorite podcast app. It helps us spread the word. And of course, the very best compliment you can pay is to share the podcast with a friend. Until next time.

Of course, you can always get more information on the Enter the Bible website at enter the Bible.org. Um, we got maps, we've got commentaries, we've got videos, we've got more podcasts, whatever you could want. Be sure to like and subscribe on YouTube, or rate and review us in your favorite podcast app. It helps us spread the word. And of course, the very best compliment you can pay is to share the podcast with a friend. Until next time.