In this episode of Enter the Bible, hosts Katie Langston and Kathryn Schifferdecker welcome Professor Diane Jacobson to discuss one of the Bible’s most complex and compelling books: Job. Together, they explore:
Original Question Submitted:
"How did God speak to Job with the whirlwind. Did Job hear an audible voice? Did anyone else hear the voice?"
Watch this video on YouTube at https://youtu.be/w9fImIEB6-0.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Enter the Bible podcast, where you can get answers, or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible but were afraid to ask. I'm Katie Langston.
And I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker, and today we have our our first time guest, Professor Diane Jacobson, my friend and colleague and role model. Diane is professor emerita of Old Testament at Luther Seminary and the former director of the book of Faith project for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and Little Piece of Trivia. She was also the first woman to teach Bible at any Lutheran seminary in the United States. So we are so happy to have you. Thank you for joining us. It is fabulous to be here.
This is my first podcast that I'm doing that I remember doing so.
A.
Brand new experience.
Well we're excited.
We're excited to have you.
It's good to. Yeah. We we found out from our from our guru of all things, Ben. Uh, all things enter the Bible that Diane did actually do a podcast way back in season one, which would have been, I don't even know, like 2012--
Before they had actually invented podcasts. So there you go.
That's right. Basically, yeah. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. So, so happy to have you. Diane, thanks for thanks for doing this with us. Uh, so our question for this episode, and as always, these are questions that we got online at enter the Bible.org. And if you, dear listener or viewer, want to ask a question, please go to enter the Bible.org and and ask the question. Uh, so we have kind of a short version and a long version. So I'll start with the long version. We actually are combining two questions here. And they're both because they're both about the book of job. Both Diane and I have written pretty extensively on the Book of Job, so we're going to have fun with this. And Katie, you jump in, of course, as well with your insights and questions. But so the one question was, how did God speak to job in the whirlwind? Did job hear an audible voice? Did anyone else hear God's voice? And then the second question was, how does job 4210 reference to the restoration of Job's fortune relate to his health? And is there evidence in the text about the nature of his physical recovery after his trial? So just to remind our listeners in job 42, it talks about God restored the fortunes of job after he had prayed for his friends. And so this listener's question is about did that include restoration of the boils on his skin or, you know, the physical healing? Yeah. So we kind of tried to to to combine those two questions and say something like, this was God gaslighting Job when he spoke to him in the whirlwind. So I guess you have lots of choices to start with here. Diane. What, uh, how would you like to start?
I'll start with the first question. The way it was written about whether God spoke to Job with an out of the whirlwind, was it an audible tongue? And I think those questions don't work for me for Scripture, because I don't think of it as an event quite like that. And did anyone else hear him? We're hearing him.
Yeah, right. Yeah. Right. Right.
Are hearing God speak to Job and we're hearing it through this written word with an audible tongue. So I think you answer it as the listener reading the text. Yeah, I'm listening to God speaking. So. Yeah, that's. So did anyone else hear his voice? Yeah.
We did. We've all heard it, right.
I love that that's really, really cool.
Yeah that's a that's a great way to answer that. Diane, I was thinking as I was thinking about that question, like I guess I always assume that the, the author means to be talking about, you know, an audible voice, like there's words, right? So it would seem they would have to be some kind of audible voice. But I also kind of picture the the whirlwind speeches as like this God's eye view of creation, right? Like, right. Like we can imagine it in our mind's eyes when we hear the words. But I also, I don't know, I guess I imagine kind of like a scenes passing in front of Job, right? That he sees as God is speaking to him. But, you know, I always.
I always imagine, like God teleporting Job to different spots. It's like, look at this. He teleports them there. Look at this. He teleports them here. You know, and like, I love it. I don't know. I don't know why I hadn't ever thought that. I hadn't ever realized. That's how I imagined it until you mentioned this, Kathryn. But yeah.
Question itself, though, makes me realize how differently we ask questions because we think differently about Scripture. So I would never I'm so used to reading and hearing that it never bothers me. And for other people, very legitimately it bothers them. So I think those are sort of important questions. But I think the, the movement of is Job gaslighting. Uh, I mean, God is God gaslighting, is the more is the deeper question. Because I think all of us, if we're with Job, when he's complaining and we say, okay, Job, you're telling the truth here, you know you're only supposed to suffer if you do bad things and and you're suffering and you didn't do bad things. So what gives here? You know, there's that whole sort of thing. And we want God to answer that question directly. And instead we get this speech that sounds like gaslighting or is that the right word? Gaslighting at first. And then you realize it's a speech that's transforming Job's and our thinking about this.
Yeah, that.
That it's moving us kind of physically to a different place.
It's teleporting us. It's teleporting. It's I wonder it's I wonder if really quickly, just maybe for some listeners who aren't familiar with the story of Job and what we're talking about, about the whirlwind and hearing voices and restoring fortunes, maybe we could do just a really quick summary of the book.
Yeah, I was I was thinking that same thing. So just very quickly. Job is a very righteous man at the beginning of the book, and God and the and he has ten children and God and the Satan, um, talk in heaven. And the Satan God says, have you considered my servant job? And the Satan says, uh, well, of course he's righteous, right? You've you've given him all this stuff. Of course he's is going to be righteous. But if you take everything away, uh, he'll curse you. And, uh, and then, uh, various troubles happen. Job loses all his wealth, uh, loses his children. In another scene in, uh, after another heavenly scene loses his health, uh, and then these three so-called friends come and they start out really well, and they sit with him in silence for seven days and seven nights, and then they open their mouths and everything goes to hell. And there's just this long debate, uh, and they, they move from being comforting to being accusing. So they accuse Job if you, you know, if you're suffering so much, you must have done something wrong. And so they accused Job of terrible things. And Job holds on to his integrity and says, no, I didn't do anything wrong. And then a fourth and and Job moves from speaking to the friends to speaking more directly to God. A fourth friend shows up and kind of repeats what the other friends have said. And then finally, in this, these chapters that we're talking about, chapters 38 through 41 of the Book of Job, God shows up in a whirlwind and takes Job and speaks about creation and asks impossible questions like, where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Surely you know, you know. Do you? Do you know when the mountain goats give birth? Do you observe the calving of the deer? Can you make Leviathan the great sea monster, your pet? So. So that's what we're talking about. Like we want. We want. As Diane said, we want God to come and comfort job. And instead you get this kind of.
This, this kind of speech about like the world. And I think there's, you know, there's different ways to read it and there's different ways that it has been read. Right. The way that we're talking about is sort of like this gaslighting way where it's like, you know, Job is crying out with all of the suffering and then, um, and then God's like, yeah, but I made these cool things so you don't get a say, right? That's that's one way of reading it or another way of reading it is like we were saying that it actually sort of transforms his. And by his, I mean Job's. It transforms Job's worldview entirely.
And and that's what I what finally comes to me about this answer from the whirlwind answer is even funny, this speech from the whirlwind and the elements of the speech that finally come to mean just profound things to me is one you've asked all along, Job. You said, I'm like these terrible animals and you treat them so badly. Well, let me tell you about what I think about the animals. I love those animals. They're my children. I'm not related to them by law. I'm their father slash mother. And it's both. And not only am I mother father to all the good parts of creation, I'm parent to the unclean animals. I'm parent. In fact, almost all the animals, except for three of them in the answer of God are in the speech of God are unclean. They're supposed to be outside of the care of God's creation because they're unclean. They cross boundaries. They they don't stay where they belong. They, you know, they're from our perspective, bad. And he's saying, no, these are the animals I love, and I don't love them because they're good and I don't love them because they're deserving or they're righteous. I love them because they're my children. And that that it takes so long to get there because it sounds nasty. Yeah. And it it it's just it's just kind of overwhelming to me. Job kind of and and I think centrally important to that is related to the second question about does Job get healed when Job gets sick, he gets leprosy. Doesn't sound fun. And that makes him unclean. So when God's talking about loving all these unclean animals, he's also talking about loving Job. Mhm. Because Job's unclean, he's got leprosy. Yeah.
Yeah. No, that's.
That's sad.
That way. Yeah. I actually hadn't either. Thanks for drawing that connection. I wonder, um. Yeah. God loves those creatures. And God loves job, right? This is a kind of tough love approach, though, right? It's. This is not. This is not God, as you know, uh, you know, grandfather in a rocking chair, like, holding out his arms. Right. This is God, the Almighty, creator of the heavens and the earth, putting Job in his place. But not, I think, not in a way. And I know you. You think this to Diane from previous conversations, right? Not in a way to kind of subjugate or humiliate job, but to invite him into the same wonder and love for creation. Yeah. And the world that that God has. And I.
Also think to invite him into a humility because he spent his.
Yeah, for sure, his.
Whole life thinking that because he's a righteous elder and a guy, it's, you know, life is going to be good for him and to find out, no, life is good for you for all kinds of other reasons, not because you deserve it.
Yeah, no, there's definitely a call. A call to humility. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.
So so to answer that second question, then, you know, um, Diane, would your argument be then that that, you know, that maybe God doesn't heal? God restores Job's fortune, but but actually doesn't heal his his his physical. Um, uh.
One of the characteristics, right?
His leprosy. Because he wants to show Job that he loves him as he is. Is that. Is that your interpretation?
Of that love to do is look, compare the first part of Job to what happens in that last chapter and what's restored. And he's no longer described as upright and righteous as he was at the beginning. He has become the intercessor that he prays for. He now prays for his friends instead of wanting somebody to pray for him. And though his fortunes are restored, um, missing from the list of his possessions are servants. There are no more servants. Um, and the three daughters that are mentioned at the beginning and then ignored are now matched by three daughters who are named and given an inheritance. So you're watching this transformation and then it. We are never told he is physically healed. So he's still a leper. And I and lepers are supposed to be outside the camp and banished. But he becomes a leader again. So it's very transformational, not just for Job, but for our whole way of thinking about what society looks like.
Certainly compelling. I'm thinking, Kathryn, I'm curious. I know that Job is your specialty, so I'm curious how you how you interpret that.
I do. I like that interpretation, Diana. And especially the lack of servants. Right. And and especially the women, the the the three daughters who are given names. Right. The the seven sons aren't given names, and they're very sensual names. Right. Jemima (Dove). Keziah. (Cinnamon stick). Keren-happuch (Horn of Eye Shadow). Right. I love that, and and they're the most beautiful, you know, women in the land. And there's this kind of extravagance about this description that's so beautiful. I probably wouldn't go quite as far as you in terms of the leprosy. I would I would probably say that the Lord restoring the fortunes of Job means that he his health is restored, too. But that's up for debate. You know, the text doesn't say clearly one way or the other, but I think you could make an argument both ways. Uh, but yeah, I think the larger point is Job is transformed. You know, whatever you think about the whirlwind speeches and lots and lots of people do not like the whirlwind speech. Right? I know a lot of people, whatever you think about them. My favorite quote quotation about Job is, uh, Virginia Woolf. Uh, one one time writes a letter to a friend and she says, "I read the book of Job last night. I don't think God comes out of it well." So.
Yeah.
Uh, good, good old Virginia was really cool, which is. Yeah, like and and I'm sure the whirlwind speeches are part of that. Right? Like, like we again, we want God to say, hey, Job, you know, there was this this test or this bet, and I'm sorry. And, you know, but that's not what God does.
I want to marry the speeches to what I've learned from you, Kathryn, that okay, also important is God's speech earlier to the friends saying you haven't spoken to me. Truly.
Yeah, yeah.
Or directly for that matter, as has my servant Job and this kind of, um, to me, then this kind of blessing of the lament is telling the truth. And so job's complaints were never invalidated. They were actually validated by God. And if I know that about God, I read the other speech from the whirlwind differently.
Yeah. Just to just to specify or to explain what you're talking about. In the last chapter of 42, in verses seven and eight, two times God's God says to the friends, and every English translation puts it this way you have not spoken of me. What is right as my servant job has. Really? The Hebrew says pretty clearly, you have not spoken to me what is right, or to me rightly, as has my servant Job. And the point is, for all of their talking about God, the friends never actually speak to God. They never pray for their friend. whereas Job moves, you know, throughout the book, from speaking only to his friends to speaking more and more directly to God in lament, right? Shaking his fist at God and God commends him for that in the end, for speaking to God and not just about God.
I feel like, um, I feel like one of the most kind of fun and interesting things, even to take away from this conversation between two of you who are experts and have, you know, interesting and and like fun and deep and creative interpretations of the text is just modeling like that's part of, I think, what it is to enter the Bible. Right. That's that's part of what it is. It means noticing, oh, the health isn't recovered. Well, what could that mean? How might we interpret that? Or how did God mean the speeches in the world went right? And what does what does that transformation look like? Uh, And sort of doing away with the idea that there's one, you know, one right way and "capital R" right, one right way to read the text. But instead we're invited into this imagination and this conversation and let it let us notice new things. Yeah, we're.
Often invited into it precisely by questions like this.
Yeah.
And that was part of the book of Faith things. What do you want to ask? What? What do you care about? What do you notice? And it's the questions that often get me to notice things or change my mind or see things differently. Yeah. So it's not just the experts, it's also people reading carefully and having questions.
And especially in community. Right? Yes. Like like we're doing right here. Right. The conversation the between us, the conversation with other interpreters and readers, you know, through the centuries Stories and the conversations of Scripture. Scriptural texts with each other, right? Like. Like Job in conversation with Deuteronomy or with Proverbs. Right. That's that's all part of this ongoing conversation in which we are invited to enter the Bible. And because the Bible is Scripture, because we believe it's Scripture, what we mean by that, at least in part, is that it's a living word that continues to speak in new ways and fresh ways. No matter how many times we've read a particular story or text.
And I have to say, it's not accidental that I ended up writing an article once called in which I identified Job as a theologian of the cross.
Yeah. Yeah.
For sure. That not liking Job and not liking God and Job isn't all that different from the way we feel about what you're going to make your son suffer. God, what's that about? Yeah.
You're going.
To.
Let the.
Messiah has to die on a cross, right?
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, thank you so much. That's. Those were some beautiful and thought provoking and funny and interesting reflections on this wonderful text. Thank you to the listener who submitted that. I'm sure we could have kept going for for much longer. Um, as always, for those of you who are joining us, um, either on YouTube or on your favorite podcast app, please remember to like and subscribe or rate and review this podcast. It really does help us kind of spread the word to others. Of course, you can always go to enter the Bible.org for way more conversations and commentaries, videos, courses, all kinds of things to deepen your experience with Scripture. And of course, the very best compliment you can pay us is to share this podcast with a friend. Until next time.